#097 Redefining Masculinity with Andrew Reiner

𝐌𝐞𝐧 𝐡𝐚𝐯𝐞 𝐚 𝐩𝐫𝐨𝐛𝐥𝐞𝐦.

We're taught to "man up" and handle everything alone.

When we struggle, we don't reach out. When friends share problems, we jump straight to solutions.

We think asking for help is weakness. We think giving advice is helping.

But here's what we miss: We never build emotional safety nets.

Women often do this instinctively. They listen first. They create space. They support before they solve.

The result? Deeper friendships. Stronger teams. And, as research shows, better leadership outcomes.

The best male leaders I know have learned this. They know that sometimes, people don't need your solution. They just need to feel understood.

Men: Try this. Next time someone shares a challenge, don't jump to advice. Ask: "How did that feel?" or "Tell me more."

It's time to redefine masculinity.

🎙️ I explore this with Andrew Reiner in the latest How to Live episode. Andrew wrote the bestselling Better Boys, Better Men and writes on masculinity for The New York Times. We discuss male friendships, emotional support, and why redefining strength might unlock better leadership and deeper relationships.

Shownotes

https://howtolive.life/episode/097-redefining-masculinity-with-andrew-reiner

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Transcript

Sharad Lal: Hi everyone. Welcome to How to Live, a podcast that explores ways to live a good life. I'm your host, Sharad Lal. This is episode . Today we are tackling modern masculinity.  What does it mean to be a man today? Our guest is Andrew Reiner, author of the bestselling book, "Better Boys, Better Men." He writes for the New York Times and has spent decades studying how men and boys really feel, not just how they're supposed to act. Andrew challenges the old "man up" mentality and he's mapped a healthier path forward. We talk about traditional masculinity, its real impact, and how to figure out our own version. How do we make male friendships actually deep? Why asking for help isn't a weakness? The growth mindset. We even talk about the show "Adolescence" and what it got right and wrong. Plus, there's surprising takes on what Andrew Tate actually gets right with younger guys. The episode is packed with insights and some perspectives might surprise you, whether you're figuring out modern manhood for yourself, or you are a woman wanting to understand men better.  This one is for you. A quick thanks to all of you, "How to Live" is in the top % of all podcasts globally. Thank you very much for this. Now let's dive in. Here's Andrew Reiner. 

Sharad Lal: Hi Andrew. Welcome to the How to Live Podcast. Good morning. How are you doing today? 

Andrew Reiner: I'm doing great, Sharad. Thank you. It's great to be here. Thank you. 

Sharad Lal: Where do we find you this morning? 

Andrew Reiner: I am in a city in the States called Frederick, Maryland, which is in between Washington, D.C. and Baltimore, Maryland. 

Sharad Lal: You've written books and you research to redefine masculinity, but I understand the starting point was a little difficult when you were growing up in school. So if you could share maybe a story of what got you interested in masculinity and to go deeper to understand it better. 

Andrew Reiner: When I was about seven or eight years old, I'd gotten into a big fistfight with a neighborhood boy where I lived. It became a lopsided, brutal fight, which you wouldn't think for seven or eight years old. But what I would later learn is that this boy and his brother were abused by their parents. And so there was a lot of pent-up rage. Even though I was pleading with him to stop, he wouldn't. And, you know, even when he told me to get down on my knees and beg for mercy, and I did that, he still kept hitting me. And he and I ran away and he tracked me down and it became almost an out-of-body experience. But the most important lasting part of that was that when I got home later that day, and I remember coming in through the back door of my home, I could hear my oldest brother, who was five years older than me, and he was yelling at our mother that I was a black sheep of the family, that I was a coward because he had heard about the fight and the fact that I pleaded for mercy. And my mother, our mother, didn't really say much, you know, she just said, well, I'm sure as he gets older, he'll, you know, grow out of these things, which that in itself was a bit painful to hear. And my brother after that, never let me live that down. I mean, for decades, he was always calling me a coward. He always considered me the black sheep of the family, and he always looked for ways to demean me. What happened after that fight was that I felt a lot of deep shame, which I didn't know at the time. And I got into, I started getting into a lot of fights at school, especially. What I really was trying to do, Sharad, was I was trying to fight my way out of my shame. 

Sharad Lal: Mm. 

Andrew Reiner: And I, and I did that for years. And one day, I remember when I was about  years old, I was in a fight with a boy who would eventually become a friend of mine. And I remember being in the fight, and thinking to myself, "I don't want to be in this fight. Why am I doing this?" I just remember the feeling of punching him in the face, the feeling of my fist against his jawbone. And it just, it just nauseated me and repulsed me. And after that, I just started realizing and being aware of how much I hated the ways that we were supposed to act as boys. It became more aware as I got older. And so by the time I got into, I guess it was late high school or university, I was looking for ways to throw off all those expectations. I felt this just burning desire that I had to be more myself. When I had a girlfriend, I wanted to be able to tell her how I felt. I wanted to be able to tell her what I needed from her, as well as she was always telling me what she needed from me. I wanted to be able to watch a movie and cry if it moved me. These were some of the things that I just started really being consciously aware of. It really felt like I was liberating myself. I got married and then with the birth of my son, that was kind of another reckoning for me where I realized that I had to be very intentional about the way I was going to raise my son, about the way we were going to raise our son and what that meant for me, you know, as a man and as a father. 

Sharad Lal: Thank you, Andrew, for sharing such a deeply moving story. And that's why the conviction in you was so strong. And as you then started understanding what really is masculinity, you described this phenomena of "manning up." So maybe if you could talk about this traditional masculinity and this thing of "manning up" and what are some of the problems it brings about to people. 

Andrew Reiner: So the "manning up" basically is, you know, when you hear that, it's really ultimately a shaming expression, which means, you know, "get it together, stop either being emotional, stop complaining." And so that expression is a code which all males know what it means. It's ultimately shaming because what it's doing is it's shaming you that you should behave in a way that other people are expecting you to. And ultimately, because it really makes them feel more comfortable. 

Sharad Lal: Mm. 

Andrew Reiner: It's not about what we need at that moment. It's a shaming, codified term that everybody knows what it means and it really pushes you up against the wall to say, "What are you going to do? Are you going to do what's expected of you because it, because I will respect you more and it makes me more comfortable? Or are you going to behave in a way that might be convenient for you, but that makes you look bad in the rest of, and everybody else's eyes?" And so some examples of this would be showing too much sensitivity, and even a larger part of that, Sharad, is the idea of vulnerability. And when a boy or a man shows any degree of vulnerability, and that can be something like crying, sharing your feelings. In some cultures, like in American culture, it could mean talking too much. It can also mean things such as asking too many questions, which in American culture is anathema to be a male and to be asking too many questions. And a really big one is the importance of doing things yourself when you're faced with challenges. Asking for help is considered a sign of weakness, i.e., vulnerability. That's a really key component, probably the most important of "manning up." 

Sharad Lal: Now, what impact does this have on men? 

Andrew Reiner: Oh my God, Sharad, it has long tails that go in all directions for boys and men. One of the things that that sets up is a huge problem when it comes to mental health issues, especially the most common are anxiety and depression. One of the things I wrote about in my first book, "Better Boys, Better Men," was that a lot of boys and even men, when they start to feel things like depression, first of all, because boys aren't taught and men aren't taught to recognize the symptoms of depression, a lot of times they don't realize they're depressed or anxious. Even if they do start to realize there's a problem, they're afraid to ask for help because they think they should really tough this out and do this on their own. So that's a huge problem with handling everything on your own. Another problem with that is that when they are in relationships, especially romantic relationships, the expectation is that when there's a problem in the relationship, you need to figure it out on your own. Now, a huge problem with that, as you can imagine, Sharad, is that you're stuck within your own perspective, which means, if you have all these beliefs that you've got to handle it on your own and you've got to man up, there's all these problems with that limit you in terms of what your options are for getting what you need in a relationship and giving the other person what they need in a relationship. One of the things that girls and women do so well is they create what I call emotional safety nets. Whenever they have problems, whenever they struggle, they seek out friends, maybe an aunt, maybe a mother, but especially friends. And they will talk and they will support each other. A lot of times with boys and men, they think, "If I get advice, that's getting the support I need. If I get advice from a friend, that's not the same thing." It's good to get another perspective, absolutely. But one of the things that, that girls and women understand is that in addition to sometimes getting another perspective, getting emotional support is a huge, huge difference in terms of mental health and in terms of feeling like that you've got support. And too many men, when they go through life feeling that they've got to handle things on their own, really do start to believe that they are all alone because it feels that way. It makes you completely alienated. And so another thing that happens is they become far more lonely. And the more lonely a lot of boys and especially young men feel, the more they start acting out in ways that really come from that manifestation of the loneliness. They're far more likely to start acting out with risky behaviors, whether that's alcohol, substance abuse, driving too fast, all these different ways, sometimes fighting more. There's all these behaviors. And in the States, you probably know about this, there's a huge problem with mass shootings. Huge. 

Sharad Lal: Mm. 

Andrew Reiner: And yes, guns are a major problem with that. But what we're seeing in places like England, for instance, where there aren't the guns, is we're seeing a lot more young men who feel very alienated acting out in ways with knives. So they're just getting something else at their disposal that they can act out on. Because one of the things that's beneath the disconnect is shame, is feelings that they're not worthy of feeling connection. So there's a lot of these complex, kind of subterranean thoughts and feelings that boys and men aren't aware of because they're not really encouraged to understand their deeper emotional lives. 

Sharad Lal: Thank you for painting that so beautifully. And we've got to the heart of the topic where you've talked about so many things, but also male friendship. I think I want to touch upon that, which is such an interesting subject compared to female friendship, that females still get that emotional support from other women. But we men, unfortunately, a lot of us are not able to get that. And in my experience, sometimes it's like you also want to act strong in front of other men, so you're not going to be a little weak and vulnerable because of which the real issues don't come out. So how have you seen male friendships as a key component here and what can be done in male friendships? 

Andrew Reiner: I think you're right, Sharad, I think a key part of this really are reimagining the ways that we have friendships. And when I say reimagining, one of the things as a starting point, for those of us who are older, we're not boys anymore. The first thing that's really important is to understand that having close friendships where we support each other, let's say emotionally and not just give each other advice, that when we say, "Oh, you're, that's too much, what girls or women do, that's too feminine," as long as we have that mentality, we're holding ourselves back. We are completely resisting and holding ourselves back from having the kinds of friendships that are ultimately really going to support us. If we want to be selfish, this is a good way to be selfish. Think to yourself, if I allow myself to get what I really need for me, then what that means is that I have to have this growth mindset, right? And we know about this from business, right? And from leadership. I've got to have a growth mindset. So even for your own selfish reasons, if you want to have a growth mindset, it's got to apply to your friendships and relationships. And we can take small steps. What it means is that we can find ways to also not just give each other advice, but at the very least to just encourage a friend to really maybe open up a little bit. Just listen and not have to even say anything. One of the fears that a lot of men have when they're in relationships is they feel like, "Well, you know, my partner is saying something, being really vulnerable. I don't know what to say. I don't want to say the wrong thing." And that's great, that's being really compassionate. But there's something called bearing witness, which is where you just listen and you give somebody the gift of just letting them talk and letting them say whatever they want, however long they want. And we don't say anything. And for a lot of people, that's enough. What we need is to let people talk and let them have the space to do that. And if they want to say anything, empathy is a great thing to say, "Wow, that must really suck. I'm really sorry that you're going through that." Something as simple as that. That is a great way to start to change the way that we have male friendships. In the United States, there's a big problem with guys bonding, connecting in their friendships, where what they do is they do activities together. They do gaming together. They might go watch sports together and that's fine. But you also, in a male relationship, in a friendship, you also need to be not always just having activities. Sometimes you need to be able to just sit down and just talk a little bit, even if it's over a beer or a cocktail or something, or a glass of wine. But just to sit down and just talk and say, "You know, how are you doing? How are you really doing?" And just to talk about the things that are struggles, because one of the things, as you said, you know, that we often do is we feel like we've got to put on a front when we're around our friends, when we don't want to appear vulnerable at all. That is such a gift to give each other, to give each other the space to be real and vulnerable with each other. We absolutely need these safety nets because what we don't realize is that when we have these safety nets, there's all these ripple effects that have all these positive benefits in our lives: lower levels of anxiety, lower levels of depression, greater connection. And the more connected we feel, the more mentally healthy we are. It also will affect the romantic relationships we have because we'll be better communicators in those. And so this is all so important and it's really simple, but we just have to bring that idea of a growth mindset into our relationships as well. 

Sharad Lal: I love that. Sometimes that I've seen in a big group, it's still okay to be that "man" kind of person because the group dynamics come in with the boys and everyone's mucking around, but with the same boy, one-on-one separately, some of these things that you talked about, we can start practicing and building that. 

Andrew Reiner: That's right, Sharad, and I think that's a great point that you bring up. We can still be, quote, "one of the guys" when we're in a group. We can have it both ways. And that's what women understand so well. But we still need that one-on-one time. One of the problems with vulnerability is that we often think, "It's got to be the extreme." "If I'm going to be vulnerable, it means I've got to tell my darkest, deepest secrets." That's not it at all. There are simple, small degrees of vulnerability that we can feel comfortable sharing at our own pace. It can be something as simple as, "You know what, this happened to me and it scared the hell out of me." That is a great start to starting to open up and a great way to start developing this kind of trusting relationship because so many male friendships don't have deep degrees of trust. And we need that. We need to learn how to create these friendships that have deep degrees of trust. We will feel so much more connected and so much healthier when we have those things. 

Sharad Lal: Andrew, the other thing you touched upon, which I found very relevant is communication and maybe emotions. So understanding your emotions, naming them, like you were able to name shame a lot later when you did some research and understood that that was shame. And once you name it, you're able to understand it. So this entire emotional space, understanding and communicating, how do we start building that up as men? 

Andrew Reiner: That's such a great question. That is such an essential one, and that's one of the hardest things for us because so much about the ways that we are brought up and that we're socialized to be, quote, "a man." Ultimately, what it really does is it really detaches us from the deeper parts of ourselves. 

Sharad Lal: Mm. 

Andrew Reiner: There's an inner disconnect that absolutely is created. And so when we have an inner disconnect, it's humanly impossible to have an outer connection. 

Sharad Lal: Hmm. 

Andrew Reiner: That's one of the things we can start to do is through behaviors. It's easier for guys to do things initially through actions, right? And a good example of that is helping a guy carry something when his hands are full. And I know that sounds like a really small thing, but for a lot of guys, they feel like, "Don't want help 'cause I can handle this. I don't need your help. This isn't too heavy for me." And something as simple as, "Look, I know you're strong. I know you can handle it, but your hands are full. There's no reason that you should have to drop this. Just let me give you a hand." That small thing is a really good step towards creating this degree of trust and learning to make yourself just a little bit vulnerable. 

Sharad Lal: Mm. 

Andrew Reiner: Doors for other guys. A lot of times we know that we should be doing it for women, we should be doing it for children. We should be doing it for elderly people. Absolutely. But another thing is to hold it open for a guy that, for a lot of guys, because a lot of guys feel like, "I can get my own door. I don't need you opening it for me." And if you see a guy coming out of a store, and again, he's got packages in his arms, open the door for him. One of the things that a lot of us don't realize is that when we are out in public, when a stranger extends themself to us and asks us if we need any help, even though we may say, "No, I'm fine." Deep down that, on a human level, is a very good feeling because, you know, if something happens to you in public, somebody else is going to come to help you when they have your back. Everybody as humans want to know that. And then in terms of the language, as I was saying before, it doesn't have to be these big moments of, you know, confidentiality. It can just be something as simple as, "Hey, you know, you're looking a little bit down, you seem a little bit down, you know, what's, what's going on?" And, and again, it's if some, if your friend is willing to share, you know, either just listening, not saying anything, or, or even better yet, something as simple as, "Man, I'm really sorry to hear that. That sounds really rough." So whether it's through these actions or just small words of empathy, these are ways that we can start to grow these vulnerability muscles that will ultimately help us feel more connected. 

Sharad Lal: Very powerful, Andrew. So as we are looking at now redefining masculinity for ourselves, you earlier mentioned there's some parts of masculinity that are very strong, which we should keep. Let's identify some traits of masculinity, which you think are really good and we should be conscious and strong and keep those while we are incorporating some of the other things that you mentioned. 

Andrew Reiner: You don't want to take the ship down out of male pride. I think the idea of being somebody who shows up when others are struggling or are in trouble, I think that is a really positive aspect of traditional masculinity. It's kind of an extension of that notion of being the provider. That's a good thing. Now, that said, while, you know, showing up and being helpful is always good, it doesn't mean that you have to, that you have to save the day for others. 

Sharad Lal: Mm. 

Andrew Reiner: There's that, once again, it's like that balance of knowing when to ask for help and when to be completely independent. It's good to show up and to be there for people. You know, you show up with a degree of humility, not, not a degree of arrogance. 

Sharad Lal: One of the things that I think of, as you were talking, is even things like drive and achievement mindset, there's some merit to it, but then once it goes overdrive, then problems can start. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. 

Sharad Lal: Andrew, I know you've done a lot of work on fatherhood as well. 

Andrew Reiner: Mm-hmm. 

Sharad Lal: Redefining fatherhood. What's the best way to bring the right type of masculinity or the modern masculinity without traditional masculinity, which can help our children? 

Andrew Reiner: I think we need to be, first of all, a lot more intentional about what it means, who we are as fathers. What that means is that we shouldn't just follow the same playbook that our fathers followed, and, you know, and other men around us that we've seen. They were all basically following a very similar playbook. And it was this idea that if you follow this way of being a father, you'll be fine. Everything will be fine, and you're doing what you're supposed to be doing as, quote, "a man." I think we're at a place where things need to be more individualized to the needs of our families and ourselves as well, because a lot of kids today are being raised with far greater degrees of awareness and emotional intelligence, and so their expectations are different than a lot of ours were growing up. We also need to be thinking about what do we need? Our own needs as well. That is not part of the conversation nearly enough, Sharad, and I really do believe it needs to be. So to get to the first point, I think that when we really could sit down, and it, it really sometimes helps to talk through, sitting down with other guys who are fathers and saying, "I've got this issue going on. It's a bit of a struggle in my household. What do you do when this, this comes up in your household?" That's part of that emotional safety net. We need to be talking about these things. We are not failures, you know, it's like asking for help when you can ask for help at the right time. That's wisdom and that's strength. We also need to think about what are my needs? One of the things that often happens with a lot of men is they keep thinking that in order to be the man, to be the father, I need to keep making endless sacrifices for everybody all the time, as much as is needed. And that's my job. It's like being a caregiver for an elderly parent, let's say, who has a lot of needs. When you're a caregiver, one of the things that, that, that is often taught to people who are going to become caregivers is that you've got to be able to take care of your own needs before you can really meet other people's needs as well. It's that same idea I was saying before about if you, you can't be connected, deeply connected to other people until you learn how to be connected within yourself. It's that idea that, you know, we, in order to be, to show up and be the best selves that we can for our family and to be there for them, we also have to have our own needs met because otherwise the well runs dry. You're no good to anyone if your own needs aren't being met. And the other thing that often happens, a lot of men, is they get resentful. They get quietly resentful because nobody's meeting their needs. Well, wake up call. If you are not making your needs met, no one else knows what they are, then that's on you. You've got to let your partner, you've got to let your family know, you know, at times, these are my needs and they have to be met too. So that, that's a way that you can be, you know, that better father. But that's a hard one for a lot of men. 

Sharad Lal: Such a good point, Andrew, and I think many dads listening would be nodding. I was going to have an exactly similar example where you painted that well, that sometimes when you're working Monday to Friday, you think Saturday I'm going to be available the whole day and present because everything tells me you should be present for your kids and then you're tired, and then you try and be available, you're resentful and like snappy. But the days, but the Saturdays, I say, "All right, I'm going to take some time off, go to a cafe, do some writing, have a coffee, just take an hour off, or maybe just go play a sport, something or the other." And then when I come back, I am even better. So now my wife starts noticing and telling me to do that because I'm bad, like you pointed out, in figuring out my needs. And that's not useful to anyone in the family. 

Andrew Reiner: That's, that's such a great point, Sharad, and I love that you get, if you don't mind me saying, I love that you offered those examples. My father was, was, was the kind of person that, and I'm like my father, I get overwhelmed and nobody wants to be around me, man, when I am overwhelmed. And my father would, we lived across the street from a school and he would go across the street and hit golf balls. That doing that made such a difference for him in terms of his mood when he would come back at home. And my wife, my wife has learned because I've had to really just say to her, and she sees the difference in me when I can have some time to myself. So what, those examples you gave, I thought were, were just great ways that men can think about, "Okay, it's okay for me to do these things 'cause I need them." 

Sharad Lal: Andrew, we've talked about so many things and, and you've shared so much of your wisdom. There's one thing I was always curious to check with you. That it's, it's very pop culture, so I, I, I don't know if you've watched the show "Adolescence." 

Andrew Reiner: I've seen snippets of it. I've seen snippets. I've done a lot of reading about it and I've watched snippets of it. And I, I, I hate to say this, I can't bring myself to watch it because everything that I've read about it, everything. Just from what I've seen and people I've talked with who have watched it and the things I've read, it, it just, it looks too painful. And I don't say that out, out of somebody who keeps his head in the sand. As a parent, I don't do that at all. But as somebody who is in this space of positive, healthy masculinity, and so many of the conversations that have been spinning out of this have been so biased against males, and there's just this con, this continuation that, not to say that there's not a problem 'cause there is, but it's so hard for me at this stage to just constantly see, 'cause it's really bad in the States, the anti-male bias. I, I, I, I just haven't been able to bring myself to watch it yet. But please go ahead, 'cause I do know a little bit about it. 

Sharad Lal: Yeah. I was just going to check with you your thoughts on the show and how much truth there is to, to young men at the age of , , going through this kind of loneliness and then, you know, doing extreme things. 

Andrew Reiner: A lot of, a lot of boys and young men are a lot more lonely and disconnected than we realize. And that's actually, I'm working on a new book right now, and that's the focus of the book. Boys and young men are really, are a lot more disconnected and a lot more lonely. And they don't even realize that that's the thing because, because as with depression and anxiety, until it gets really extreme in males, they don't, they're not aware that there's a problem because so many of their friends act the same way that they do. So yes, I, I do think that there's a problem with that and, and we're starting to see the, as I was seeing earlier, the really sometimes dangerous, maladaptive ways that boys will act out in this case. I do think that "Adolescence," everything that I've been, you know, what little I've seen, everything I've read, I do think it takes the situation. I think it sensationalizes it, to be honest. I think that, in the States, there are a lot of boys and young men going on to that place called the Manosphere. 

Sharad Lal: Hmm. 

Andrew Reiner: But I've interviewed many young college-age men and, and many older high school boys. A lot of them, while they have gone into places like the Manosphere, which is where the character in "Adolescence" goes and spends time, a lot of them are far more critical of what they get out of it. They're far more critical than we give them credit, and we're just in the early stages of starting to understand this. I don't think we're even there yet, but if you talk to these lot of young men, they'll say things like, "Yeah, there are benefits of going to some of these places because one of the things so many of them will say is, 'I feel a sense of community there. I feel a sense of, I'm, I'm not being shot down for being male, and I'm being accepted for who I am.'" Look, I mean, that's a very basic human core need. Now, when they go further down that rabbit hole, that's where some of the really sinister stuff becomes problematic. But initially, you know, a lot of older guys especially know how to draw that line. Now, it's true that with younger boys, they're more unsophisticated. Their brains aren't fully developed. It's more of a problem. But even a lot of them, the smarter ones, will draw that boundary. There are some, shockingly, there are some really positive messages that are on the Manosphere. You know, it's, it's not all misogyny. It's not all hatred of women. A lot of these guys, one of the most notorious is Andrew Tate, and Andrew Tate is, is definitely, he's one of the worst by far, but there are positive messages that he sends to men. You know, my son, my -year-old son, I asked him if he was familiar with him and he showed me some of his messages and they were things that I tell my son. 

Sharad Lal: Mm. 

Andrew Reiner: The importance of perseverance and working hard. That when you, you know, that, that not being lazy and let other things, like sleeping too much or gaming too much, get in the way of your goals. I mean, that's a really positive message that a lot of boys need to hear and know the importance of perseverance, which is not something a lot of boys and young men have today. And so, these are really positive messages. We really have this, this very kind of one-sided notion of what happens in the Manosphere. And I'm not saying it's good at all. What I'm saying is that it's, it's a, it's more complicated than we realize. The reasons that a lot of boys and a lot of boys go there is not because they're against girls or women. It's not about them. They go there because so many of them feel disconnected and they feel that a lot of pop culture is not, is not accepting and tolerant of them. And so they're looking for community, they're looking for acceptance. There's not nearly enough nuance to the conversation about why boys go to the Manosphere. How can we engage them in ways where they're getting what they need that they're not getting right now anywhere else, but they're not also being exposed to these more, at times, sinister, misogynistic messages as well? So it, it is something that I've been, I've been doing some research on and reading a lot about and talking to people because it's one of the things that I, I'm hoping to have a chapter in my book about this topic. 

Sharad Lal: Very refreshing perspective, Andrew. And as I hear you speaking, like even my judgment was clouded by this show and whatever I've heard of Andrew Tate and, and, you know, the sensational videos of him come out. And like you said, there's something good out there to have a community and feel bonded, but of course it can go into dangerous land. Even if you go into the extreme of Andrew Tate and others, in some part of him, it can, and others, incel and all those things, it can go kind of crazy, but the whole concept is good. And if it can evolve over a period of time to a community of men where they can understand each other, that is interesting. And, and I'm so glad that you are doing some work on this to try and get the nuances out and put chapters or a book on this. I think that'll be a huge service to fathers and young men. 

Andrew Reiner: If I do it well, Sharad. 

Sharad Lal: I'm sure you will. I. 

Andrew Reiner: So. 

Sharad Lal: Andrew, as we wrap up, we've talked about so many things. What's the one piece of advice you'd like to leave men with who are looking at evolving themselves to become a little more modern in their masculinity? 

Andrew Reiner: Yeah. It goes back to something I, I, I said a few moments ago, Sharad, about this idea of the growth mindset. 

Sharad Lal: Hmm. I. 

Andrew Reiner: The better parts of the growth mindset that we're, we're being forced to learn in the workplace. Like I said before, really good communication skills. Learning how to be a good collaborator, which means being a better, a far better listener and being curious, and that is something that we as men need to learn a lot more is curiosity. And not being adamant and, and being right. Curiosity is a really important thing that we need to bring to our relationships as well. So what I would say is, if there's one big takeaway, this idea of a growth mindset that you might be learning in the workplace, bring those into your relationships. If, if you're not married, bring it into your friendships. If you are, if you do have a partner or a girlfriend or whatever, bring it into that relationship. If you're a parent, bring it into your relationship as well. It will only benefit you and the relationships that you're in. 

Sharad Lal: Thank you very much, Andrew. That's such wise words to end with. Thank you very much for sharing your time with us and thank you very much for the service you're doing to manhood. Thank you very much for that. 

Andrew Reiner: Well, thank you, Sharad. I, it's been a, it's been a pleasure and an honor to speak with you and I, I just think it's, what you're doing is really important as well, so thank you. 

Sharad Lal: Thank you. Keep doing all the good work, Andrew. Thank you very much. 

Andrew Reiner: Thank you, Sharad.