#098 Designing life in your forties with Robin Speculand

"Chase passion, not pension" - but how do you actually figure out what you love?

Robin Speculand nailed this. At 34, he was making VP money at Citibank — but still didn't know what his "passion" was.

So he did something most of us never do: He stepped off the treadmill and took time to reflect.

On a beach, he asked himself: 

• What have I truly enjoyed?
• What gave me energy? 
• What problems do I see that others miss?

That's when it clicked. Every company had a strategy. But 9 out of 10 failed at implementation. Nobody was solving this. It was a blue ocean.

His passion wasn't "helping people" or "being a founder." It was this specific, unsexy problem everyone ignored.

📌 If you're in your 40s and feeling stuck, maybe passion isn't something you find. Maybe it's something you recognize:

1. Step off the treadmill (take real reflection time)
2. Look at what energizes you (not what looks good on LinkedIn)
3. Spot the blue ocean problem only you can see

Your passion might not be trending. It might be the overlooked thing that quietly lights you up.

And that's exactly why it could change your life.

🎧 Full episode with Robin — How to Live, Episode 98

Shownotes

https://howtolive.life/episode/098-designing-life-in-your-forties-with-robin-speculand

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Transcript

Sharad Lal: Hi everyone. Welcome to How to Live, a podcast that explores ways to live a good life. I'm your host, Sharad Lal. 

This is episode 98. Today we're gonna talk about how to figure your path in your forties when the treadmill's moving fast, but something inside says it's time to change. Our guest, Robin Speculand, left a high-flying role at Citibank in his thirties to follow a calling that no one quite understood at the time: strategy implementation. People thought he was crazy, but he backed himself, found his first three clients, built a career that now spans nine books, global keynotes, work with top universities and Fortune  companies. Today we talk about career transitions, designing for freedom, the power of reflection, and why your forties are the decade to double down on what you truly love. If you're figuring out how to design your life, this episode is for you.  As always, thank you for listening. The How to Live Podcast is at the top 3% of all podcasts globally, listened to in 148 countries. Thank you for this. Now, here's the incredible Robin Speculand. 

Hi, Robin.  Welcome to the How to Live Podcast. How are you doing this afternoon? 

Robin Speculand: Thank you for the invitation. Delighted to be here. 

Sharad Lal: I'm so glad you could make it. You're a difficult man to get hold of. 

So Robin, let's turn back to the turn of the century. 2000. You were a VP at Citibank, and at that stage you were looking at a potential high career, but you said, I'm gonna leave this and start something on my own, a consultancy. What was going on at that time? 

Robin Speculand: First of all, I have to tell you, when I made that decision, everyone told me I was nuts. Even my own mentor, who's been my mentor for over  years now, said, "Stay in Citibank. You're one of the youngest regional VPs in the whole group. Another seven, eight years, you'll make good money." Now, interestingly, seven years later was the global financial crisis. So, in hindsight, just as well, I'm not sure I would've been there, but the decision was made many years before I even joined Citibank. I went over to an island in Malaysia. I was sitting on the beach and I was in my late twenties and I said, "What do I want to do?" And I scribbled down on a piece of paper: "Before I was , I'm going to be an entrepreneur and own my own company." I left Citigroup when I was  34 years and 11months. 

Sharad Lal: The deadline was coming right there. 

Robin Speculand: The question that comes before that is, why was I in Citibank?  And I was very fortunate. I've been living in Singapore now for over  years and I worked for a JV, a joint venture between Singapore Airlines and the government called the Service Quality Centre. And I ran the international and local business team, and I was part of the management team and I loved what I did. I had opportunities to move. And Citigroup approached me with the offer and I looked at where I wanted to be at that age. I was just in my late twenties and my work had been mostly around the people and the customers, but I had very little knowledge about the financial and little knowledge about how you do process management in those days. And Citigroup invited me to come and roll out their global strategy from New York across  countries in Asia Pacific. That ticked the box of the financial and ticked the box of process because it was based around Six Sigma. 

So, it was the right opportunity at the right time, but I knew it was a few years only. I always knew I was going to start my own business. 

Sharad Lal: That's so interesting. So you were always reflective. Like even when you were with the Singapore Airlines JV, you were thinking, "Now this is the skill I need to build and Citibank gives me that." And then you were on the island thinking about, "I want to be an entrepreneur," thinking about life. 

Robin Speculand: Nice way to put it. Always looking three to five years ahead. What are the skill sets? Where do you want to be? What do you need to do to get yourself there? For myself, I'm a specialist in strategy and digital implementation, so you'll see the connection always looking ahead at what you need to do to implement what you want to see happen. 

Sharad Lal: I'm glad you brought up implementation. So back in , implementation wasn't really a thing.  And you created a consultancy on implementation. Why did you do that? 

Robin Speculand: Well, you say it wasn't even a thing. People didn't even know the words.  They said, "What are you doing now?" And I say, "I'm doing strategy implementation."  And they look at me and go, "Huh? Oh, you mean change management?" I'd be like, "No, there's a difference. Change management is a subset of strategy implementation." But why did I do it? Well, I was very blessed when I was working at so many different companies in Singapore and around the region. I saw that they created the vision. And they put in place the mission, the values we're all familiar with, and they have their strategy, but how many truly deliver on it? How many success stories are there really to talk about? And that's where my curiosity started when I saw we were working with so many of our clients, but they weren't really delivering on everything they said they were going to do. What was going wrong? And that was the catalyst that I started to look at what it is. The key thought: customers notice the implementation, not the strategy. So the work you do, you know yourself, on purpose, and a lot of the work you've done with UOB is helping them articulate what's the purpose. But it's not just the articulation, as you and I both know, it's then driving it into what you do every day, both at a corporate level, but also for each individual. 

Sharad Lal: So good. 

Robin, many of us who have worked in the corporate world have seen exactly what you say, that you have this big plan, CEO signs off, GM signs off. There's a big party, everyone's happy, and then they forget about it. That gap of implementation is huge. And you decide to go after that. 

But now you're an entrepreneur, where you're being the entrepreneur for the first time, and you're pursuing a field which people don't really understand. How did you go about figuring that out? 

Robin Speculand: I was very fortunate. I got some very good advice. One of the tips I give to the people I mentor is always have a mentor, always have someone who's been there and done it. Why repeat the mistakes of the past? Learn from others. Just like every football player has a coach, every sports player has a coach. But in business we seem to think coaching is maybe something a weakness, whereas top performers recognize it's how you improve.  So I was very lucky. I had the mentor and they guided me to identify what I truly wanted to do. And how I went about it was, I'm a believer in blue ocean, red ocean, that when you're competing in a red ocean, everyone's competing for very little meat and we're all chasing after the same dollar. I created a blue ocean, and in the world of implementation, I really focused on what it took for organizations. And at the time there was very little writing or research on it. So one of the important things is I started doing my own research. And when I got this result, I was popping the champagne because I discovered that nine out of ten companies were failing at that time, back in ,  years ago, to implement their strategy. Now, as terrible as that is for the companies, for me setting up a consultancy saying I do strategy implementation, it was of course a gold mine. It followed that there was a market there and making the leap from a comfortable corporate life to then being an entrepreneur and a startup kept trying to get the business, that was the first breakthrough to be able to say. So coming out as a regional VP, having the research behind me, that's what then allowed the doors to open. But the best tip I got is before I started my business, somebody said, "Make sure you have your first three clients lined up."  And I still remember it. I was working out of Hong Kong. So I had an apartment in Hong Kong as well. And I remember it was a public holiday and I was sitting in the room writing a proposal and it was for Singapore Airlines and they were just about to roll out their new strategy and they'd heard I was leaving Citi and about to start up a company. Never thought that Singapore Airlines would go with a startup. They approached all the big consultancies and us, and we won the contract. 

Sharad Lal: Oh, wow. 

Robin Speculand: And that was the blessing. So when I came back, I left Citigroup on Friday. I went to Bali to rest for a couple of days and my business partner at the time, who I'd presented with, called me on Sunday and said, "Come back to Singapore. You start working Monday with SIA." And that was the transition. 

Sharad Lal: I love the fact you talk about the red ocean and blue ocean. So many of us pursue trends and what's sexy, but that place can be very competitive. There are many people out there, but there's another place which is not too competitive, where the need is not fully talked about, where you talk about the blue ocean. Second, what I also liked was before leaving and going all in, get three clients so that you've got some proof of concept. And with all this, the chances of you succeeding increase. 

Robin Speculand: But I would also add onto that, yes, it depends very much on the individual's personality and nature. Some of us enjoy doing the research, enjoy looking and discovering and challenging. Others are happy to go with the flow. So it's not a question of, should I go to the blue or red ocean? It's more a question of your personality, what you want to do, because obviously the red ocean market is there. And if you can make a space on that, it's still good. So blue oceans are not for everyone. Otherwise, we wouldn't be blue oceans because everyone would be there. It'd be one big red ocean. So it is very much a critical question for people to think about first: what do they want and what is right for their nature and the way they want to pursue their goals. 

Sharad Lal: You talked about mentorship, having the right mentor. What's a good way to figure out a good mentor for ourselves? 

Robin Speculand: Well, I was very lucky. I was, even before all this, before Citigroup, I was working in Hong Kong. And I met a gentleman, some people in Singapore will know, called Ron Kaufman. And he said, "You should be working for us in Singapore." And two months later I was, and anyone who knows Ron won't be surprised that things happen very quickly. And he took me under his wing. And I would go running to him when we were doing corporate workshops and say, "How do I do this? How do I do that?" And he's been constantly guiding me to this day. So it's gotta be someone who you absolutely connect with, somebody you respect, someone who you trust. The advice you won't always agree with, but that's the whole point. They're gonna challenge you, they're gonna provoke you, and you should feel uncomfortable at times, but it's gotta be someone who you respect. And it can be one or two or even three people. I've been fortunate to have one mentor for over  years now, has become a very good friend. But you want people who can guide and coach, and as I said earlier, learn from their mistakes. Learn what works and what fails so you can do it faster, quicker, and better for yourself. As we all know, somebody from the outside can see the things that we can't see ourselves. 

Sharad Lal: Wonderful advice. As you move from the corporate world, now you have a business where you already had three clients and it was doing well. How were you going about reinventing yourself? What did you need to do to shift and change from a corporate person to an entrepreneur? 

Robin Speculand: I was actually the opposite because I was always more independent than a corporate. I never wanted corporate life. I resented having to sit in the office, putting PowerPoints together for meetings and presentations for head office, and I wanted to be out there improving the business and the operations and with the customers. I knew that wasn't my calling. For others it is, and there's absolutely nothing wrong. We've all got different goals and purposes, but for me, I always, it was that free spirit and the number one reason why people become entrepreneurs: freedom. So those of you who remember Mel Gibson and Braveheart, "Freedom!" It's the ability to do what you want, when you want, where you want, certainly. And to go from that corporate restrictions to the freedom I had. Today I now have three different companies. I've started four different associations in Singapore. So it was obviously my DNA, it was going to happen. 

Sharad Lal: You're the picture of freedom, as I understand you. You design your life around work, it's a design that kind of works together in a way that works for you. 

Robin Speculand: Can I tweak that? 

Sharad Lal: Oh, please. 

Robin Speculand: I don't call it work. At home we call it living the passion. I'm very lucky it's not work. I love what I do. The opportunity to talk to you today. Last week I took banking to Switzerland and we're sharing how AI is impacting banking. Next week I'm working with a client in Malaysia. It's just, I just love what I do. It's just great fun. 

Sharad Lal: When I spoke with you last time, there's so many things I took away, but the big thing that kept coming to me was doing what you love. And I kept thinking, like many of the listeners would be thinking as well, "How do I figure out what I really love?" 

Robin Speculand: There's actually a pattern because three, four years before that, I walked away from corporate life again, and I went and became a backpacker for  months, and I traveled the world and it was the best thing I ever did. Now, when you're in your mid-twenties, it's all about career progression, making your money, becoming more significant in a company. And I turned my back and I was just about to be promoted and I said, "No thank you." And I went traveling around Australia and Asia, and again, I sat on the beach and said, "What do I want to do?" And I reflected what I'd enjoyed up to that point and what I hadn't. And I discovered that doing a turnaround and a transformation or implementation is where I enjoyed. Now the route to then getting to starting my own company, maybe it was  years later, was just learning and building that experience towards it. Now, of course it sounds very straightforward when you reflect on it, but at the time, you have to make critical decisions. So for example, I was offered to stay in Australia. I was offered to get sponsorship for my papers and that was a key decision. I said, "No, thank you." Then four years later I ended up living in Singapore now for  years. So you'll make key decisions along the way, but you've gotta have that reflection and it's very hard to take the time out to stop and say, "Okay, I'm gonna take six months. I'm gonna take a sabbatical for a year." The research shows us that those who stop and reflect and take time out are more productive. Step back and think, the treadmill's going quickly. When you step off it and really think about what you want to do for your family, yourself, that's the opportunity that very few or not enough people take. 

Sharad Lal: I love the analogy as you put it. I was visualizing it. You step off the treadmill and you can see the big picture. What have I enjoyed? What has lit me up? What has given me energy? And that starts giving you an idea of what you love. And then you said as you go through life, the decision points where that comes to the core. That clarifies what you truly love and cements and does that at cement. And then would that be a good framework of looking at it? What are the ways you reflect? 

Robin Speculand: I've been in Asia over the years. So one of the skills in Asia that we take for granted, as many of us do, is meditation. I was fortunate to discover what worked for me. There are many different types of meditation, so for those who haven't tried it, who are listening to this, it's like finding the right gym trainer. Or finding the right car that you have, it takes a bit of practice before you find the right meditation. Sometimes it took me a little bit, maybe  months, until I found what worked. But I absolutely recommend meditation. It's something I do. I also do Ironman, which is a swim, run, and bike. So I train sometimes for like three, four, five hours. So I use meditation and sometimes I'll be running and I'll run like five kilometers and go, "How did I get here?" And I just, I don't listen to music. That's when I reflect and think as well. But I always create the space, and that is for me absolutely critical. Because it's when you let your mind relax and you meditate, that you really come, and I come up with some of my best ideas when I do that as well. It's very powerful. 

Sharad Lal: One of the things when you're trying something new is of course there's freedom, but then the emotions out there, that, "Will I fail?" There's that fear. What kinds of emotions have you gone through and how have you worked through them? 

Robin Speculand: My goal when I started my first year of Bridges was to match my Citigroup salary, which was no mean feat because I was very banking. You're very well looked after, especially at a regional level. I had the drive and the determination and you've gotta be a little bit crazy. You've gotta be a little bit mad to chuck it all in and go out on your own. Because there are no guarantees. You are working seven days a week. You're really taking every opportunity and there's so many different skills that you have to learn along the way. You can only do it by doing it yourself and maybe messing up or failing. It is never a straight line. So for myself, it was a duck to water. I absolutely loved what I was doing. I was very passionate about helping companies really understand that. It's not the strategy that delivers, but you've gotta go beyond. I started, as I said earlier, doing my own research. I've also been an adjunct at the Singapore Management University for  years now, so I had access to the academics as well, and that combination of working with organizations and top-performing leaders and also having access to academia, that gave me a lovely balance. So it wasn't just the practical side. I was also doing academic work, coming from research. I started to write books, to write case studies. And combine the two. And for me that was the right balance. So it was taking the conceptual and the research, but also with the practical about what works and what doesn't. And putting that together. 

I've now published nine books, which is about five times more than anyone else on the subject of strategy and digital implementation. And, I've got my sixth Harvard case study coming out in a couple of weeks' time. I just continue to write and research is part of my DNA, but that's how I got started. So for myself, I did the research, I developed my material, I developed my own content, and I deliver that. And I built it up. And you learn. I mean, I remember leaders asking me a question and pointing out something and going, "Oh, that's not right. I should do, oh, yeah." And you tweak it, and you adjust it. But that's part of the journey and you've got to love that. You gotta be open to feedback as you evolve. For others, you take the other road, which is you license other people's content, other material, which also works because you might be great at delivery or great at presenting it, and that's your focus. So the key message: double down on what you really love, double down on where your passion is. Know your own strengths and your weaknesses, and then really focus by doubling that. Now, for those of you on the podcast who are in their forties, it's a critical age because for the next few years, this is really where you're going to cement yourself and prove yourself. So you really want to double down on what you truly believe in and what you're passionate about. Too many people are chasing their pension, not their passion. The research shows us that one out of two people are in the wrong job. Are you one of them? Well, that's a question for everyone to reflect on. Are you really doing what you love or are you just chasing your pension? And for those of us who are fortunate enough to find our passion and then be able to create the space and environment to double down on it, that's what delivers happiness. 

Sharad Lal: Wow, that's such a powerful message. And like you said, the forties is such a critical age because you can figure out the next  years of your life. How do you figure that out? Like, you're sometimes caught in the treadmill, you're doing stuff. How should someone right now listening, who's on the corporate ladder doing reasonably well? Things seem pretty good on the surface, but something's kind of. 

Robin Speculand: Well, I'm not sure I'd recommend what I did, which is chuck in your job and then go and sit on a beach for a year and decide what you want to do. But you do have to take time out. It may only be a few days, or hopefully a couple of weeks. But you do need to just stop and think, and for, typically in the forties, most people have a partner, significant other, sometimes when you're on or reflecting with them about what you really want. Now it takes courage. You're in a high-paid job. You're going to quit. You're looking to do something different. For those who suddenly say, "I'm gonna start my own business," you've gotta be a little bit crazy. Because you're going from a guaranteed salary to no guarantees. So is it the risk? But if you truly believe in it and you're passionate, then people respond to that. And if you do it with confidence and you're able to deliver on it, then the business will come to you. But of course, it's not an easy transition. We all know four out of five startups fail. Within the first five years, four out of five fail. Within the next five years, another % failed. So making a success is not easy. But if you've got the commitment and you're following your passion, then it does happen. 

Sharad Lal: Robin, as you figure out your entrepreneurial path, some people might want a path where they would like to have a big company with many people. Some people are more like, "I want my freedom and I want a few kind of people." And I think you chose the freedom plus partners to work with. What made you figure out what's the path you want to go in? 

Robin Speculand: Yeah, no, it's really, that's a great question because you gotta discover the right working model for you. It used to be, it's not so much today since the gig economy, but it used to be, "Well, how successful are you equals the number of people you hire?" "I have a team of five. I have a team of seven. Huh. You know, I'm better than you." But today that's no longer such a competitive differentiator, and it's not the right question. The question is, what's the right business model to support how you're going to deliver? Now, for myself, I was fortunate. Being a regional VP for Citigroup, I'd run teams. And I started to build the typical motto. I opened an office in London, in Dubai, in Singapore. And yeah, I was managing people more than managing clients. When I looked at the P&L, we were spending more on offices and employees than we were earning at some time. So it was just, I realized my passion. I didn't need a team around me. So I built, and this is very much my model. I built the partner model. So what I've done is I work, for example, with some of the universities. So I already mentioned Singapore Management University, the National University of Singapore, also IMD out of Switzerland, Asia School of Business in Malaysia, and Duke. And they will bring me in because there's no professors in implementation. Everyone has a professor on strategy when you do your MBA, but nobody teaches you implementation. So they bring me in because I'm in that blue ocean. So that opened the door, I can offer something that the professors in the business schools don't deliver on. Okay. So that was one of the partners. The other one I do is I have people who represent me around the world. And once again, offering that unique space of not just a strategy, but digital implementation, which I've been involved in since . People come to me and say, "Okay, can you help with a client?" So they do the marketing, they promote me. Then they just bring me in. 

Sharad Lal: There are so many models that you can have, like if you want to be, if you know that you want freedom, you don't need to have many people, but you can have channels and models and partners and collaborators to do this. 

Robin Speculand: But it's not right for everyone because some people like having a team around them. And also depends on the nature of the work you're doing. Mine is very much on delivery and the research, I can bring in other people, so I have my own ecosystem. I have my editor, I have my proofreader, I have my designers, but they all work in the gig economy and they all work on projects. So when I need to scale up, I bring it in when required, and then they go back to doing their own work. 

Sharad Lal: You don't have those payrolls, there's not that much stress. 

Robin Speculand: Yeah, that's what works for you and I, but everyone has to decide the right model. 

Sharad Lal: Robin, you're doing so many things. You're writing books, nine of them. You're writing articles for Harvard. 

Robin Speculand: Thank you for promoting them. 

Sharad Lal: "Implement." Everyone needs to read "Implement." We are gonna put a link in the show notes. We've got Piyush Gupta, who's written the foreword for that book. 

Robin Speculand: Yeah, so those who don't know Piyush is the former CEO of DBS bank. 

Sharad Lal: So you've written so many books. You've written Harvard case studies, you're part of so many associations and you're working. How do you figure out how to divide your time? There's so many things that are gonna compete for your time. 

Robin Speculand: But it's easy when you do what you love. You don't have to figure it out, because it's just, everything's enjoyable. It's not like, oh, I need a day off, or I gotta rest, you just love what you do. Because when you're in control as an entrepreneur, you're in control of your own schedule. You choose the work. You choose where you want to go. So I just came back from the work I was doing in Europe and I was able to take it, because my family, we were over for a family wedding. So I took some extra time and I built, I blocked a week off my schedule and I saw my parents and I had some downtime, so you can choose what you want to do. So it's not a question, it's a very different framework, is what I'm trying to say. You're coming from a different space in your decision making. You've hit the perfect point of what you love, but what's also absolutely strategic to you. You like implementation, but the world needs it. Not too many people are doing it. 

Sharad Lal: I don't know, it was because of reflection, because I know you reflect a lot, so maybe there's more credit than you give yourself. There's some way this has come together. 

Robin Speculand: It's making your own luck as well. So you've gotta create the opportunities. So you've got to, every time you present, you might be doing it for the th, th, a th time, but your audience, it's the first time, just like a performance, a theater with an audience. And you know your material, you got to love it 'cause you're gonna be presenting the same framework for  years, but I still love presenting it because I still open up and people go, "Wow." And, you know, having that impact is what you love. So you just have to remember every time the curtain opens, you're on stage and you gotta give your best. And when you do that, you build the reputation, you build the brand, and then instead of you chasing the business, the business chases you. 

Sharad Lal: So Robin, if you were to look at -year-olds from now, one of the pieces of advice you said was double down. Is there anything else that you would tell them, folks who are figuring out, "How do I spend the next few years?" "What do I do? What move can I make?" 

Robin Speculand: Balance. You've got to have the balance. As the old cliche goes, nobody has on their tombstone, "He stayed in the office till  o'clock at night." It might feel very important today, but so are the family and the children, and the top performers take the time out. They have the balance, and there was research done, I haven't used this one for a little while, but the research was done in the US Army where they used to make them run nonstop for like ,  miles or  kilometers. Then they changed it and they would run for  minutes and then take a five-minute break and they'd covered more distance, not less. And it's the same for us in our personal life. When you stop for those five minutes to think and reflect, that's where the opportunity is. So in your forties, it's about also finding that balance, taking the time out to make sure you enjoy yourself. Now, if you haven't already got the feeling. And I am a bit crazy. I also do Ironman, which is swimming, cycling, and running. So you're training for that, maybe three, four, or five hours at the weekend. And that's the time, but I, that's balance of the exercise. And then the third component, and I'll bring this together through neuroscience in just a moment, is also your eating. So there are two critical points in your life from neuroscience where if you don't follow the right path, you're gonna be in trouble. The first one is at . And if you are still treating your body as if you're just out of college and you're still enjoying the drink and staying up late and eating the wrong foods, it's going to, that shows sooner than later. There are three things we have to do in the forties. You have to eat right, you have to sleep right, and you've got to live right in terms of your health and what you're doing. The other age is when you hit . That's another critical spot that if you are not, become lazy and you're not exercising, you're eating the wrong foods, again, it will get worse sooner than later. So at , , we know from neuroscience research, those are the two critical ages for those in their forties. It's not just about the office. It can consume you. You're going up the corporate ladder, and we all know, by the way, when you look up the corporate ladder, what do you see? The backside of somebody above. You've gotta step off the ladder. You gotta be able to see, you gotta make sure you have the right balance. 

Sharad Lal: Robin, we've spoken about a whole range of things. Is there something we haven't spoken about that we should talk about? 

Robin Speculand: Yeah. So favorite books? Yes. Favorite material. For me, I'm a "reader-holic." I plead guilty. I've never been good at audio, so I occasionally listen to audio. But you've got to be passionate about your learning. You've just gotta keep learning, keep reading, especially in today's digital world, there's so much going on. This year the key theme is AI. Yes. It's rapidly shifting. It's gonna change business models in the next three to five years. And just as that settles in, quantum is going to kick in and change again. So you've got to be aware of what's going on around you. One of the books that I thoroughly enjoy, one of my recommendations is "Man's Search for Meaning" by a gentleman called Viktor Frankl. For those who haven't heard of it, Viktor Frankl was in the concentration camps in Germany during the s, and he survived. And when he came out, he developed logotherapy and he studied about why some people survived when so many didn't. And he saw a pattern that they had a purpose, which very much links to the work that you were doing. So within the purpose, he said that maybe they had some music they wanted to write, or maybe they had a young child they were hoping to see again, or maybe they had an unfulfilled desire, they had something that drove them. And there's an opening quote in the book, that's one of my favorite quotes, that, with your permission, I'd just like to share. He says in the opening of the book, "Don't aim at success. The more you aim at it and make it a target, the more you're going to miss it. Success, like happiness, cannot be pursued. It must ensue. It only does so as the unintended side effect of one's personal dedication to a cause greater than oneself, or surrender to a person other than oneself." So, as we say locally, very profoundly. He goes on to say, "If I can just read the second paragraph: 'Happiness must happen, and the same holds for success. You have to let it happen by not caring about it,' which sounds counterintuitive. 'I want you to listen to what your conscience commands you to do and go on to carry it out to the best of your knowledge. Then you'll live to see that in the long run. In the long run, I say success will follow you precisely because you have forgotten to think about it.'" Beautiful, and that just sums up our discussion today, that you really have to pursue what you love, pursue your passion, not the pension. 

Sharad Lal: Thank you very much, Robin, on those wise words. We are gonna end. Thank you very much for spending your time with us. 

Robin Speculand: Thank you for the kind invitation. Thank you. And hopefully a few nuggets that everyone can pick up on. 

Sharad Lal: More than a few. Robin. Thank you very much.