Morgan Jackson teaches 11th and 12th grade English in Las Vegas, Nevada. In this episode, Morgan defines the pitfalls of diversity and why it is not enough to have only diverse representation of race and identity in our libraries. Morgan offers personal anecdotes with action steps for equitable library cultivation.
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Morgan Jackson teaches 11th and 12th grade English in Las Vegas, Nevada. In this episode, Morgan defines the pitfalls of diversity and why it is not enough to have only diverse representation of race and identity in our libraries. Morgan offers personal anecdotes with action steps for equitable library cultivation.
Morgan’s Published Writing:
Morgan’s Recommended Resources:
Other Notes:
Get solutions from Schoolutions!
#solutionsfromschoolutions #schoolutionsinspires #schoolutionspodcast
Schoolutions –S1 E7: Diversity vs. Equity: Why We Need to Go Beyond Diverse Representation of Race and Identity in Our Libraries with Morgan Jackson
[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am thrilled to introduce you to my guest, Morgan Jackson. Morgan is a English teacher (11th and 12th grades) at Bishop Gorman High School in Las Vegas, Nevada.
[00:00:27] Olivia: Morgan taught middle school from 2008 to 2013, and then began teaching at Bishop Gorman High School from 2013 to now. I had the gift of our paths crossing amidst an NCTE 2021 session. It was a Nerdy Book Club session around supporting equitable, joyful reading communities. And when we had to choose our breakout sessions, fortunately I joined Morgan's.
[00:00:56] Olivia: I didn't wanna leave. I knew there was so much more to discuss and talk about, and so I thought I have to have Morgan as a guest for listeners to hear all of the brilliant things that she has to say. Morgan welcome. I'm so excited for you to be here.
[00:01:12] Morgan: Thank you so much for having me. It is a pleasure to be here to talk to you about this today.
[00:01:16] Olivia: So, right out of the gate, I love to hear who is an inspiring teacher in your life.
[00:01:23] Morgan: I'm gonna be totally cliche about my life, and it's totally my mom. My mom has always raised me to know that I can do anything I put my mind to, and she was very particular to ensure that I didn't ever get hung up on either sexism in terms of, oh, well you're a woman, you can't, or the racism of because you're Black, you can't.
[00:01:41] Morgan: So, she's always pushed me that whatever I put my mind to and whatever I work hard at, I can accomplish. And that's a lesson that keeps me going as we go through the topsy-turviness of the world.
[00:01:51] Olivia: And I know one of the main reasons I just continue to circle back to the brief session I had with you as a learner was because I am navigating relationships in schools all over the country right now, especially with high school teachers that the notion of diversity versus equity is so, uh, confused.
[00:02:13] Olivia: And it needs to be defined, uh, better. And you do a beautiful job defining the pitfalls of diversity and equity in a way that you made me think and realize again, it's not enough to have diverse representation of race and identity in our libraries.
[00:02:30] Olivia: We have to go a step farther to have equitable representation. Someone that brings that to mind for me and I know does for you as well, is Rudine Sims Bishop, Ph.D., and I feel compelled to have our listeners just have one of her, actually two of her quotes floating in their minds as they're listening to this episode.
[00:02:51] Olivia: So, the quote that I've lived with for many years is this: “Books are sometimes windows, offering views of worlds that may be real or imagined familiar or strange. These windows are also sliding glass doors, and readers have only to walk through in imagination to become part of whatever world has been created or recreated by the author. When lighting conditions are just right, however, a window can also be a mirror. Literature transforms human experience and reflects it back to us. And in that reflection, we can see our own lives and experiences as part of a larger human experience. Reading then becomes a means of self-affirmation, and readers often see their mirrors in books.”
[00:03:41] Olivia: So, Morgan, that quote brings a lot forward for me, thinking of diversity, how are different races, genders, identities represented? And yet I wasn't thinking deeply enough about this until I was lucky enough to meet you. Would you share the other quote?
[00:04:01] Morgan: Gladly from that same work. There's a passage that she says: “When children cannot find themselves reflected in the books they read, or when the images they see are distorted, negative or laughable, they learn a powerful lesson about how they are devalued in the society of which they are a part.”
[00:04:18] Morgan: And I think that's the part of, of Rudine Sims Bishop, Ph.D. that really does get lost sometimes by the wayside.
[00:04:23] Olivia: I agree. I agree. I wanna go back to that moment in time with you. Um, November, 2021. I'm, I'm in this Zoom session with you. And you started to speak to why it's not enough to have diverse representation of race and identity in our libraries.
[00:04:42] Olivia: Can you define that for our listeners? What are some of the pitfalls?
[00:04:45] Morgan: Yes. So, I think we need to go back to the idea of diversity and what diversity is, and so often we use diversity as this checkbox of, I have a book that has this minoritized demographic present. I have a book that has Black characters.
[00:04:59] Morgan: I have a book that has Muslim characters. I have a book that has queer characters, and we consider that diversity because it's now something outside of the norm. Whereas when we look at something being equitable, we're talking about something that is welcoming for all identities and awareness of all people.
[00:05:14] Morgan: So, if we go back to Bishop's first quote about the mirrors, windows and sliding glass doors. The one thing I talk about when I talk about diversity versus equity is diversity says: Yes, I have a book with a Black character. Equity says: What am I reflecting about the Black experience as a mirror window or sliding glass door through this book?
[00:05:35] Morgan: And I use Black because I'm a Black woman raising Black children. But the same applies to any other group or demographic. Your story with a Muslim character, what are you reflecting as a mirror to your other Muslim characters through this book? What are you reflecting to your non-Muslim students as a window or a sliding glass door?
[00:05:53] Morgan: Are you providing an environment that people want to open the sliding glass door and venture into that world? And so equitable means that you're not just showing those things that revolve around the trauma. What's the image that you're, that you're holding up for people to, see? I think that's when we move into equitable when we start talking about, but what are we showing people?
[00:06:13] Morgan: If you're looking at cisgender, heterosexual White characters, they live a plethora of lives in our books. So, diversity says, I have a Black character, I have a Muslim character, I have a Latinx character. Equitable says, but what is this Latinx character doing? Are there stories as wide and broad as are White, cisgender, heteronormative stories?
[00:06:35] Morgan: Or are they focused on the trauma of that identity and thus reinforcing re inflicting that trauma?
[00:06:42] Olivia: Being a White woman, I've had incredible privilege over my life that I continue to recognize more and more. And I'm raising two White boys again with great privilege. I think it's critical for listeners that don't understand what you're talking about and maybe without malintent, but just have ne it's never occurred to them what you're speaking to.
[00:07:04] Olivia: You gave an analogy because the entire world experienced COVID in whatever way they did, and you gave an analogy about that trauma that we could feel. Could you speak to that for listeners?
[00:07:18] Morgan: Absolutely. So, I don't watch a whole lot of TV, but I do, you know, we record a couple of shows and one of the things I found is I really didn't like watching the stories with the COVID lines.
[00:07:28] Morgan: I don't wanna see the mask wearing and the partitions because I lived that. I live that world. We go out to the grocery store and we've gotta stand six feet apart and we've gotta wear the mask. And so, for me, I really enjoyed watching shows that took us not into the COVID world at all, shows where people lived their regular lives.
[00:07:44] Morgan: Because honestly, there's a little bit of COVID fatigue. Like I, I wear this mask, I don't then wanna watch my characters on TV where it. I want to go and kind of escape from this, so to speak, or think about a world beyond where I currently am. And so, in a lot of ways, you get the same thing when you're looking at your diverse stories.
[00:08:02] Morgan: That 9 times outta 10 when when teachers diversify their classroom library with Black stories, it involves slavery, civil rights, or police brutality, or the idea of overcoming some horrible neighborhood by some athletic prowess and thus moving into some place better.
[00:08:16] Morgan: But using the idea of like violence, it's on the TV. Like we see the idea of police brutality. I don't want to then open the book and read that. Like as a mother to a Black son, I know what awaits him, and I have that question of how far do I go and, you know, how much freedom do I give him? So, reading a story where that's the storyline, it it, it's not an escape for me.
[00:08:38] Morgan: It like, I wanna live in a world where he's just out and he finds a puppy and he plays with a puppy and then he comes home. I want that story. And I think that, you know, when we're dealing with our own personal traumas, we understand the need for an escape. Or the need for, like, that's not all it is like, yes, COVID is happening, but there's more to the world than just COVID.
[00:08:58] Morgan: And yet, a lot of times when we're talking minoritized groups, their stories are very much centered directly on the trauma affecting that demographic.
[00:09:08] Olivia: Yes. And so, for listeners that want to diversify, the first step is asking yourself: How diverse is my library? And going a step farther to ask: Is it equitable representation?
[00:09:22] Olivia: And so, I think it's twofold. Um, one doesn't supersede the other. But I feel like the equity aspect is absolutely critical for us to push the conversation to. With that said, what are some resources that you suggest to have those representations that are not all trauma inducing for our kids?
[00:09:42] Morgan: It's honestly, it's a little bit difficult, especially if you are a, a White teacher or White parent or White librarian because you've never really had to do it.
[00:09:52] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:09:52] Morgan: You're not into the habit of doing it. We Need Diverse Books, offers a ton of great resources. I follow a ton of authors on Dr. Bickmore’s and on Twitter and things of that nature. Going through and looking at. What they're putting out, who they're following, who they're recommending. It's also, honestly, a lot of work.
[00:10:09] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:10:09] Morgan: I go through a lot of books that are coming out and I'm Googling the authors to see what they look like, and I'm Googling to see what the story is about. Common Sense Media has a book branch where you can put in a book title and it'll give you a rank of how much inappropriate language, how much sexual content or alcohol content, um, bullying, things like that, so you get a better representation of what's inside of the book.
[00:10:34] Olivia: That's fascinating.
[00:10:34] Morgan: Which is extremely important for that. But I also think it's, there has to be a cognition piece, which I don't think we got into in NCTE, when we talk about equity. It's the idea of equity concerns itself with how everyone is represented. Mm-hmm. But we also have to consider who we're putting forward.
[00:10:53] Morgan: So, a lot of times I'll talk to elementary teachers who will say that that book isn't really appropriate for their kids, because it might be a little bit hard for them to understand.
[00:11:01] Olivia: Oh. Okay.
[00:11:01] Morgan: Or, you know, they're not quite ready for those concepts. And it's funny because I'm like, right, but the kids who are experiencing those things are also in your classroom. And so, it's, it's that balance of, you know, you don't wanna introduce it, but you also wanna make sure that you're providing a variety of exposure to students. Like I often say if a book doesn't belong in your classroom, what you're saying is that the kid who relates to that book doesn't belong in your classroom.
[00:11:26] Olivia: Ah, that's big.
[00:11:27] Morgan: And that, you know, so when you think about it that way, it's not about the book, it's about the kid. Like, would you tell a kid who has two moms that they don't get to go to second grade because it's not appropriate for their two moms?
[00:11:36] Olivia: Ugh, that's big, Morgan!
[00:11:40] Morgan: But when you say that this book doesn’t belong there, essentially that kid is kind of is looking at like, you know, they withdraw a little bit because they don't fit.
[00:11:46] Morgan: They don't fit that mold. And like we wouldn't tell a kid that. Most of us, you know, most of the issues, we have pure intentions. You know, we're not looking to do harm. It's what we're well-meaning. But when you think about it in that regard, it's not about the book, it's about the kid who identifies with the book.
[00:12:00] Morgan: It's a little bit harder. To say no.
[00:12:02] Olivia: I wanna just pause with that. It's not about the book, it's about the child or the kid that identifies with the book. That statement holds so much power because we're living the last few months, especially, it's been terrifying. The book banning that is taken a hold of our country and it, it's books that my own boys are appalled that are being removed and taken that are some of the richest ways that they've learned about the world and have sparked numerous conversations with our family.
[00:12:39] Olivia: I mean, with what you just said, what are your thoughts on the book banning? Where do we go?
[00:12:45] Morgan: I, I think that it's, it's easy to take a book out of a classroom and avoid a conversation. It's typically, it's done for comfort.
[00:12:51] Olivia: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:51] Morgan: It's done because it prevents, you know, you don't wanna have difficult conversations. And I completely understand that. I get not wanting to introduce things. You know, you wanna preserve a child's innocence. You want them to live in this nice little bubble where their innocence is preserved for as long as possible. The problem you run in to do with that is that doesn't happen for everyone.
[00:13:11] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:13:11] Morgan: My daughter was three the first time she had someone say something racist to her, and it was at a dance class. Um, does that mean that we need to go in and like, no. I'm not saying I, there's, there's age appropriateness for it. But I had to have that conversation with my three-year-old.
[00:13:23] Olivia: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:25] Morgan: So, to say it's not, you know, you have to find a balance.
[00:13:27] Olivia: Yes.
[00:13:27] Morgan: Um, do I think that parents should have an input in books? Absolutely. I most wholeheartedly do. I'm not at all advocating that, you know, you teach whatever. But I do think that we have to find the line of are we banning the book because the book doesn't offer anything? Or are we banning the book because the book makes us uncomfortable?
[00:13:42] Olivia: Yes.
[00:13:42] Morgan: Does it make us have to have conversations that we don't want to have? And a lot of times it's more of a comfort level. So, in my classroom, and when I talk to teachers, I tend to argue that someone's going to be uncomfortable in the classroom. It can be the students or it can be the teacher. I opt for it to be me.
[00:13:58] Morgan: If someone has to be uncomfortable, I would rather be the uncomfortable person because I'm the adult. My job is to help them. It's to kind of grow them. So, I want them to find a way to be okay and to be comfortable. I also think though, when you're looking at book banning, I see my job, I'm an English teacher, yes.
[00:14:16] Morgan: But I don't necessarily teach books. I teach critical thinking.
[00:14:19] Olivia: Mm, yes, yes, yes!
[00:14:19] Morgan: So, my job isn't to tell them what to think about a book or what to think about a topic. My job is to give them everything and then have them ask questions like, I would prefer not to ask questions. Give kids material, and they will kind of start to tease through it and ask questions about the why and the how and, and offer suggestions.
[00:14:40] Morgan: So, I, my, my philosophy on book banning in general is not to ban books because it does a disservice. Now, I think we also have to be cognizant of where we are and aware of situations and I think there are plenty of situations where books that use inappropriate language or books that use racial slurs can also be weaponized against students.
[00:15:00] Olivia: Yes.
[00:15:00] Morgan: If you're one of the only person of that race, in the class, it can become quite weaponized with….
[00:15:10] (school bell ringing)
[00:15:11] Olivia: …you said there was going to be a bell. That was a bell. Like I could not have imagined. Oh my gosh.
[00:15:18] Morgan: It feels very medieval. It feels very medieval. But I do think that, you know that that books can be weaponized. There are easy ways for students to quote the book and the slurs in the book and like, oh, I was just quoting the book.
[00:15:32] Morgan: So, I think we have to be, we have to be mindful of how books can be used, but at the same time, people get in a car accidents, we don't ban driving. We just teach kids how to drive safely.
[00:15:40] Olivia: Yes.
[00:15:41] Morgan: So, I think we need to do a better job of navigating that and helping them come to those conclusions as opposed to, putting them in bubbles and acting like these things don't exist.
[00:15:50] Olivia: But Morgan, how do you do that? How do you do that with 11th and 12th grade students that we're hoping go out there in the world? It's hard to have these difficult conversations and facilitate them with keeping your own perspective out. What, how do you do that?
[00:16:06] Morgan: The first step is that your students are people.
[00:16:08] Morgan: I think it's the hardest thing I've come across. I laugh about my daughter all the time. My 8-year-old is headstrong to say the least. And the going joke between my husband and I is that she's gonna make a great adult if I don't kill her first. She's headstrong. She, she shall not be moved.
[00:16:22] Olivia: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:23] Morgan: And it's great. And I recognize that as the 16-year-old who's gonna go on a date, I want her to be headstrong and unmovable. And I don't care what you say and I don't care what you offer me. No thank you.
[00:16:32] Olivia: Yes.
[00:16:32] Morgan: I want that for my 16-year-old at a party. That sounds lovely. I want that for the 24-year-old who's getting a job who's, you know, being rejected and she's not letting that kill her spirit for my 8-year-old, I want her just to do what I say.
[00:16:42] Olivia: Yes!
[00:16:43] Morgan: But I have to recognize that she's a person. Same thing with my students. They're people. And so often we look at students as like the student in my third period class. But like he's a person and so you have to give them the opportunity to have conversations. And I think that's the part that gets lost.
[00:16:58] Morgan: We've had a situation here recently with students who have, um, overdosed at a middle school and the conversation was they hadn't had conversations. If you don't give the kids the opportunity to talk, what happens? And so really that's what we're doing. The books are an easy way to have a conversation.
[00:17:14] Morgan: It's really hard for a kid to say, I'm struggling with this, or I'm confused about that. But if you can offer a book and we can discuss the character in the book and why they made this decision, now we can start having real conversations and getting them comfortable. But it starts with recognizing that our students are people.
[00:17:32] Morgan: They come with their own opinions and their own thoughts. They are people, and we have to honor that, and we have to acknowledge that. And we have to be willing to allow them to be people. Like I say all the time, there's not a right answer. It's what you can support, you know, so long as I'm trying to be right, I can never get there with my students like that. It doesn't, I can never get there.
[00:17:50] Olivia: Have you had, uh, parental or caregiver pushback when you are trying to have difficult conversations or talk about compelling topics with students?
[00:17:59] Morgan: We've had a little bit. We've had students who, like, I don't understand the point of this.
[00:18:01] Morgan: Um, I did The Color Purple one year with my juniors and it was, it was rough. And I had one student who said that they didn't get why we had to read the book because, you know: The grammar's horrible and they can barely understand it. Why are we reading this? And I, I said: Okay, is this the first time we've had a book you couldn't understand?
[00:18:18] Morgan: No. I'm like: What else haven't you understood? Okay, so let's talk about Shakespeare. So why do we read, read Shakespeare? I can't understand. Like: Well, what, what's the point of reading this one? Okay, now we've gotta investigate why are we questioning this one book? What makes us uncomfortable here?
[00:18:32] Olivia: Yes.
[00:18:33] Morgan: Um, and typically that's our, that's our biggest hurdle. It's, it's discomfort.
[00:18:37] Olivia: Mm-hmm. I agree.
[00:18:37] Morgan: You know, it feels uncomfortable and you're like, wait a second, I have to rethink some things. And there's, and teaching 'em, it's okay to rethink our students by the time they get to high school are so caught up on being right.
[00:18:48] Olivia: Yes.
[00:18:48] Morgan: Like: What's the right answer? What do you want me to write? Tell me, what do you, what do you want miss? If I can break them of that, there's not a right answer. I want you to think about it. I want you to write what you think it taught A Rose for Emily years ago, and one of the writing prompts we did was: Should the story be censored?
[00:19:04] Morgan: Should you remove the “N” word from the story? And I let the kids write why and why not? And they had a really hard time getting started because they didn't wanna write it. They, they didn't, you know, they didn't feel comfortable writing this word. I'm like, well, if you can't write the word in a story, That's a hundred years old.
[00:19:19] Morgan: How will you have the conversation?
[00:19:20] Olivia: Yes.
[00:19:21] Morgan: And there were some who said: No, it shouldn't be because, and some that said: Yeah. It wasn't about being right; it was about exploring your opinion and how you support that. And I, they had full room to agree or disagree. And it was okay. You weren't trying to convince anyone of anything.
[00:19:36] Morgan: You were trying to find your own center. And that's the big part is it's about finding you. What do you believe and why do you believe it and can you support it? That's the important part. That's all that matters.
[00:19:48] Olivia: And that's what resonated with me most out of the small amount of time I spent with you November of last year.
[00:19:55] Olivia: It's, it's so student-centered, thinking of the equitable nature of making sure that our students see themselves and then can evolve to define their perspective, what they value if we allow space for them to have conversations. And that's why I'm grateful that you are an educator in the world, um, because you're brave and you don't mind you, you may mind it, but you're willing to have the discomfort to allow our children to thrive. So, thank you Morgan so much for being a guest.
[00:20:28] Morgan: There is one small thing I want to point out.
[00:20:30] Olivia: Oh, yes, please!
[00:20:32] Morgan: When we talk about equitable representation, I wanna make very clear though that, and it's hard, it's not just about those kids seeing themselves, I, it's about them seeing other people.
[00:20:41] Morgan: Because even if you're in a homogenous community, they’re going to interact with other people. And what you show them as a sliding glass door to those environments are going to determine how they interact with those people when they come across them. So, it's in, it's really important that we understand like, oh, well I don't have any Jewish students, so I don't need a book with Jewish characters.
[00:21:01] Morgan: But there are Jewish people in the world.
[00:21:02] Olivia: Yes.
[00:21:02] Morgan: And we need to make sure that we're sharing these things with them. So, it's important that we, we keep in mind for everyone to have these varied views of everyone. As opposed to some type of like homogenous diversity.
[00:21:15] Olivia: We will end on that note because that is such a strong point.
[00:21:18] Olivia: I can't wait to continue our conversations. I'm just grateful, that you took the time amidst your school day (thank you) to jump on and be interviewed. Take care Morgan.
[00:21:28] Morgan: It's always a pleasure.
[00:21:29] Olivia: Thank you.
[00:21:30] Morgan: Take care.