[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am humbled to introduce you to my guest, Dr. Cosimo Tangorra, known as Cos by those who love and care for him as well.
[00:00:23] Olivia: Dr. Tangorra has been superintendent of various school districts for almost 20 years. He also held a position as the Deputy Commissioner of P-12 Education in New York State Education Department. As superintendent, you have had influence over many different school districts in your position. We are going to zoom in on your most current positions as the Superintendent of Niskayuna and New Hartford School Districts.
[00:00:51] Olivia: I would love for listeners to hear about your journey. But before they do, I always ask guests to share who an inspiring educator has been in their life. Would you share for our listeners?
[00:01:04] Cos: I've been fortunate over the course of my career to have exchanges with many, many mentors who have really enriched my life and given me an opportunity to learn and grow from them.
[00:01:14] Cos: That to this day, I learned valuable lessons from my colleagues, not only my colleague superintendents, but the teachers and the folks that I work with every day and the students themselves. I would say that, uh, I've just been very fortunate, and I continue to have wonderful experiences with them every day.
[00:01:33] Olivia: I'm going to jump right into the content because you have so much to offer. And again, an issue many, many school districts face: How do we nurture diversity, equity, and inclusion? Something that I've learned about you over the course of our conversations as we've gotten to know each other better is you are absolutely magnificent when it comes to planning, recruiting, and supporting as a superintendent with academic achievement for all in mind.
[00:01:57] Olivia: This is part of who you are, what you believe to be true for all students. I would love for listeners to hear about your personal equity journey and how you hold tightly to that as you make decisions.
[00:02:15] Cos: Certainly. Well, my journey started much later in life than I'm proud to admit.
[00:02:22] Cos: My childhood, my college education, my first 10/12 years in education were in communities where unfortunately, our focus wasn't on equity, but I arrived. And I arrived learning how privileged I was. Growing up in a small working-class town. And once I realized that, although I didn't have many advantages, I had several compared to my female and black and brown colleagues, and coming to terms with that really turned my whole perspective around.
[00:03:05] Cos: I was always, you know, about making the lives of children better. And I was always about making the lives of all of my students better. But once I realized that, uh, there were many, many children who were being disadvantaged, even outside the communities that I serve, it really changed how I thought about what my obligation was and what I needed to do.
[00:03:26] Olivia: And so how do you do that? You have power as a leader and you have voice, yet it's really daunting. It's scary to speak your mind when it comes to your beliefs. How do you embrace people and bring them into the conversation?
[00:03:40] Cos: My real journey began in earnest when I put my theories into action when I was at Niskayuna.
[00:03:47] Cos: So, if I talk about that experience, that might help flesh out your question. It was the summer of 2015, and the, in my opinion, the national conversation was turning south in a hurry. And I was very concerned about the language that was being used across the nation, and how it would eventually trickle into the classroom and impact students.
[00:04:11] Cos: Then, early that fall, when school started, there was a lot of talk about Muslims being deported. And my Muslim students and my students that were perceived to be Muslim were experiencing an increase in, I wouldn't even say microaggressions. It was pretty aggressive language that they were dealing with, you know, being told that their family's going to be deported.
[00:04:34] Olivia: Yeah. Scary.
[00:04:35] Cos: I started having more conversations with students. About their experience and quickly found that disabled students, students who were not as socially and economically advantaged as other students with disabilities, black, and brown students were all experiencing a heightened sense of microaggressions.
[00:04:57] Cos: So, we started to have that conversation, talking to students, talking to community about that experience. Created a community advisory committee, which eventually led to a presentation to the board of education in support of a Chief Equity Officer at Niskayuna to really change the PD that we provide for our faculty, staff, leadership team, our approaches to discipline, right? A real close look at our code of conduct and our policies that are in place.
[00:05:29] Olivia: When you say PD, you mean professional development for listeners to understand?
[00:05:34] Cos: Yes. Professional development. We started with our leadership team, issues around poverty, and then folded in greater and greater diverse topics.
[00:05:43] Cos: Once we had the leadership team speaking in the same language or rowing in the same direction, shifted to faculty and community, and students. Students really had a lot to do with the changes that took place there.
[00:05:59] Olivia: So, I know something I run into with many different school districts is a lack of shared understandings. It has to be collaboratively developed. And so, then there's an ownership of terminology and what we want the vision to be. How did the students take on that role when you're saying that they had a major part?
[00:06:21] Cos: So, the students also understood that we have to meet people where they are, right?
[00:06:24] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:06:24] Cos: And yeah, bring them from that point. I had a consultant come in and interview students about their experiences. We had parental permission and we talked to families obviously prior to that experience, but it was the lessons that we learned based on the students. So, I'll give you a brief example.
[00:06:47] Cos: A young lady was explaining to the interviewer how she was in class one day, she had been victimized by a certain one of her classmates over and over again with abusive and racist language that he was using. And finally, one day in class, she very sternly put him in his place. At the end of class, the teacher walked up to her and said: Hey, I'm very proud of you for the way you handled that situation.
[00:07:13] Cos: And the student said: Well, thank you. It's unfortunate that I had to handle it.
[00:07:16] Olivia: Wow.
[00:07:16] Cos: The power just in that statement alone was enough to help change the conversation, to help convince members of the board, members of the community, members of the leadership team, quite frankly, who didn't think that this work was necessary.
[00:07:29] Cos: He didn't see it right in their daily lives, had it thrust upon them by the students that they serve. And I could recite example after example, after example of how students felt safe enough to share their experience and know that somebody was going to listen, and someone was going to do something about it.
[00:07:53] Olivia: So, with that notion of safety, I also have empathy for teachers in this work because there's a lot of pushback coming from families these days of what is okay, what is not okay to speak to in classrooms. I've interviewed several people where we continue to circle back to the need to highlight multiple perspectives, yet still speak to and uncover compelling topics that are relevant with students.
[00:08:21] Olivia: Again, offering multiple perspectives. How do you navigate this work with families? And so that work it's shared both in the school district, but also with a home-school connection.
[00:08:33] Cos: What we're trying to do is not exclude anyone. Right? So certainly not everyone agrees or not everyone understands how urgent this work is when they don't really know what's going on.
[00:08:47] Cos: They're not living it. So, it's our job to share that experience. Children, your neighbors, your community members are having this experience. And thank goodness they feel comfortable sharing that experience with us now.
[00:09:03] Olivia: Yes.
[00:09:03] Cos: Right? In ways that they didn't in the past. So certainly, some of these conversations may make some people uncomfortable, but that's until they learn, right?
[00:09:14] Cos: And they understand, and they come to terms with the fact that their experience isn't everyone else's. And what they really want for their children is to feel safe and loved and nurtured so that they can be all they can be in the classroom and we’re just trying to create the same atmosphere for every other child.
[00:09:33] Olivia: You just mentioned the word comfort. That's something that I've really been thinking about. There's a fabulous podcast called Nice White Parents, and it's that notion of who has the power to feel comfortable and what do the systems support to make sure that comfort level is felt by all, not just some people that hold the power.
[00:09:56] Olivia: And Morgan Jackson said, you know, as a teacher, if it comes down to it and someone's got to feel uncomfortable, it needs to be the grownups. It shouldn't be the students, and that's really hard these days, because in a lot of cases, the students are the ones that are often more brave to be uncomfortable than the grown-ups and it seems kind of flipped on its head.
[00:10:21] Cos: So, I have two comments, right? The students can't be left on their own. And part of the lesson is getting comfortable with the discomfort because it is an uncomfortable conversation. Now, you referenced Nice White Parents. We actually use that podcast with the Board of Education and Niskayuna as a learning tool.
[00:10:39] Cos: So, over the course of, I think it was seven different board meetings, we had the board listen to a segment. We reviewed it in open session, walking through some protocols around the podcast, and I plan on doing the same thing in New Hartford.
[00:10:53] Olivia: That podcast was absolutely eye-opening to what I never could have imagined. Just with the power of PTAs as well that never really was on my radar until listening. I think that's an amazing plan to have them listen and analyze and better understand through that podcast.
[00:11:11] Cos: My responsibility is to bring as many people into the conversation as possible and not exclude. So, I feel obligated to work harder and spend more time with the folks that are pushing back because the folks that are already engaged in the conversation have come to this realization, right?
[00:11:31] Cos: And I want everyone to be part of the conversation. Now, having said that, it's not my responsibility to make people feel good about the fact that they're uncomfortable with certain populations. However, it is my responsibility to let folks know that there's a diverse set of populations that exist and we need to serve all of them equitably, and that's not necessarily equally.
[00:11:57] Olivia: Can you say more to that? What do you mean by that? Equality is not equity.
[00:12:00] Cos: Well, it's for every child. We want to give every child what they need in order to be successful.
[00:12:06] Olivia: Which is equity, yep.
[00:12:07] Cos: Which is equity, right? So, you and I may be two students in the same school who live right next door to each other and grew up in the same neighborhood, but you need a different set of tools in order to be successful than I do.
[00:12:21] Cos: And that's the way it should be. There's nothing wrong with it. And that's, that's why I'll know when we've gotten closer to making improvements, when there are significant changes to our grading policies and to our homework policies and all the academic policies that exist that treat everyone the same, which is designed to ensure that we can predict who's successful.
[00:12:49] Cos: And I'm going to remove that predictability, right? I don't want to know who's going to be successful. I want to just assume that everyone is going to be. And they're going to receive whatever it is they need in order to achieve that success.
[00:13:02] Olivia: Speak more to that with the grading policies, because I think that would be fascinating for listeners, especially families, to hear more about that. Because a lot of parents like a grade that zero to 100%. What are you thinking about that?
[00:13:16] Cos: So, I have a hard time really being convinced that means what people think it means, right? So, what's the difference between a 99 and a 100, right? What's the difference between a student who gets a higher grade because that student is perceived to be more compliant, let's say, than another?
[00:13:35] Cos: And I don't like a numeric system that at some point eliminates the possibility of success at all, right? So, you know, if you do the math and you receive too many sub-50 grades at some point, a student can say to themselves: What's the point, right? Now I can't be successful no matter what. And the grading policies that create every opportunity to fail a child should be flipped on its head.
[00:14:08] Cos: So, their policies that give every single student, every opportunity to be successful.
[00:14:13] Olivia: Brilliant. I know our time is short, but I do want you to speak to how you see Restorative Justice, DEI (diversity, equity, and inclusion): how are they about academic achievement for all students? And could you define what each of those are for our listeners?
[00:14:31] Cos: So, I don't like to think about DEI and SEL and Restorative Justice in silos. Right?
[00:14:39] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:14:39] Cos: And now, certainly they exist, and everyone has their own definitions of what they mean, unfortunately. Right. So…
[00:14:48] Olivia: Yeah. I agree. Indeed. There's no shared definition there. Yeah.
[00:14:52] Cos: There's no shared definition. So, I just like to think of what are we doing in order to ensure that every student is successful?
[00:15:04] Olivia: Yes.
[00:15:04] Cos: First of all, we're going to make sure that they're safe, and they're fed, and they're warm. And if they're experiencing anything outside of school that's preventing them from learning, that we're going to work with that child and that family to address those issues so the child can learn.
[00:15:20] Cos: So, in a nutshell, that's all, to me, social-emotional learning is. Right? It's providing whatever is necessary in order to remove the obstacles that prevent learning.
[00:15:31] Olivia: I don't know how anyone could say no to that. That that's not what's best for kids. Yeah.
[00:15:36] Cos: So, if my child needs extra attention because he or she is transitioning. What is necessary for that child in order to have those obstacles removed? The same thing with Restorative Justice, right? Children can't learn if they're not in school. The Code of Conduct isn't a penal code. It should be part of a lesson plan. Our job is to facilitate learning, and part of that is what's appropriate and proper conduct.
[00:16:02] Cos: We had students a couple weeks ago walk out in protest of an issue that happened in our school. I met with them after that. Some of them didn't come back. So, I met with them to say, I'm all about supporting your right to protest. But I want you to do it the right way because those of you who didn't come back worked against the whole point you were trying to make.
[00:16:25] Cos: Now the adults in the organization are more focused on the fact you didn't come back than the reason why you left in the first place, right?
[00:16:32] Olivia: Fascinating. So, educating them on how to protest to get their point across in a way that will be heard.
[00:16:38] Cos: It’s the same process. Right, so again, I don't want to oversimplify this very, very complex situation we find ourselves in. But at the end of the day, it's removing those obstacles so that every child is successful in giving them what they need.
[00:16:52] Olivia: And don't you find that representation really, really matters as well for students? I think of recruitment and retention of teachers that are part of the community and know the families and care, but also that really can understand perspectives.
[00:17:13] Olivia: How do you work through recruitment and retention to make sure that you have diversity represented?
[00:17:20] Cos: You're absolutely right. I not only want to have a workforce that's reflective of the children that are being served. Even in communities where there's very, very little diversity, I still believe there needs to be a diverse professional workforce.
[00:17:35] Olivia: I agree.
[00:17:36] Cos: So, when students go into the real world, that they have that experience. So, retention and recruitment go hand in hand. If you don't change your recruitment policies and practices, where you go, who you talk to, how you make offers of employment, then you're always going to get the same results. But before you change your recruitment policies, you have to change the culture that exists within the organization because you want to retain those folks.
[00:18:09] Cos: So, you can change all your recruitment policies, recruit a diverse workforce, and then they leave because they don't feel welcome. And the hard work hasn't been done that's necessary to make sure that everyone feels like they're part of the community, including those folks that you're recruiting. It's all part of what you asked me earlier.
[00:18:28] Cos: Well, ensuring that you have a diverse, well cared for faculty and staff is part of that as well, that receives the professional development they need so that they can interact in ways that they haven't had to before. So, I just don't want to leave people out there on their own. Everyone needs to be supported in the effort to make them better.
[00:18:50] Olivia: And the notion of DEI, the diversity, equity, and inclusion, it's not just at the level of the students, it's at every level of our systems. And that's where, if the students see adults being inclusive, then they'll be so much more apt to mimic those behaviors. I can't thank you enough for being a change-maker, for being brave, and for holding on to what you know to be true and what's best for students, but also for the communities that you serve.
[00:19:19] Olivia: They're very fortunate to have you and I'm grateful for your time. I know you're a very busy man. So, thank you so much Cos for taking the time to speak to listeners today around this really important work.
[00:19:31] Cos: I'm grateful for the opportunity.
[00:19:32] Olivia: Thank you. Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my guest, Dr. Cosimo Tangorra. Thanks to my older son Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. If you like Schoolutions, please share, rate, review, and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you want to reach out, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website: www.oliviawahl.com/podcast or via email @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Don't forget to talk about us nicely on social media, and please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.