Leah Mermelstein, the author of“We-Do” Writing and many other renowned professional books, shares her secrets for creating integrated units of study. Listeners will learn her step-by-step process to bend or create their own integrated curricula.
Episode Mentions:
Connect & Learn with Leah:
Get solutions from Schoolutions!
#solutionsfromschoolutions #schoolutionsinspires #schoolutionspodcast
Leah Mermelstein, the author of“We-Do” Writing and many other renowned professional books, shares her secrets for creating integrated units of study. Listeners will learn her step-by-step process to bend or create their own integrated curricula.
Episode Mentions:
Connect & Learn with Leah:
Get solutions from Schoolutions!
#solutionsfromschoolutions #schoolutionsinspires #schoolutionspodcast
Schoolutions – S2 E35: It's Time to Bend Curriculum & Create Our Own Integrated Units of Study with Leah Mermelstein
[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am so excited to welcome my guest back for another conversation today, the wonderful Leah Mermelstein. Leah is a well-known expert and author on the teaching of writing, reading, and language development.
[00:00:28] Olivia: As a literacy consultant, she works closely with school districts, teachers, and students helping develop and deliver quality and cohesive literacy instruction, which is what we're actually gonna talk about today. She has written numerous books on the teaching of reading and writing and the connection between the two. These books have been mentors for me long before I had the gift of meeting you, Leah.
[00:00:51] Olivia: And my S1 E10 conversation with Leah about her book. “We-Do” Writing can be listened to wherever you get your podcasts. It is my honor to welcome you back, Leah, as a guest on Schoolutions.
[00:01:05] Leah: Oh, Olivia, I am beyond thrilled. Anytime I get a chance to talk to you is a perfect day.
[00:01:11] Olivia: I've looked forward to this all morning, and because I am lucky enough to have you as a listener as well, you know I love to kick off every episode with an inspiring educator. Now, the last time you spoke, you shared that Professor Pearson and his work around gradual release has inspired you.
[00:01:28] Leah: Yes. You know, it's funny, Olivia, because I knew you were gonna ask this question, um, you know, last time I tried really hard to choose somebody who spoke to the conversation we were having.
[00:01:38] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:01:38] Leah: And so I really was thinking about what person inspires me in terms of the conversation we're having. So I wanna say first, um, I'm a rule follower, but I almost didn't choose a person to make the point of everybody inspires us in different ways, and we become the best teacher we can be if we understand that one person can't do it all for us.
[00:01:59] Olivia: Yeah, so true!
[00:01:59] Leah: Um, but I did choose someone…
[00:02:02] Olivia: Yes.
[00:02:02] Leah: …um, because I think this person inspires me to have really amazing conversations. So I chose Cornelius Minor, who I know has been a guest on your show (S2 E1).
[00:02:12] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:02:12] Leah: Um, and I wanna just talk about a few things that I've heard him say, which I really think speaks to our conversation today.
[00:02:18] Leah: The first thing I wanna say is on your podcast, he talked about being in time…
[00:02:23] Olivia: Yes.
[00:02:24] Leah: …rather than on time, and so, when we begin to have conversations with districts and with teachers in schools, I think a huge part of that is to be in time with teachers, to be listening to what they're saying, not listening to figure out how you're gonna argue back to what they're saying or say why they're wrong, but to truly listen, realizing you can learn something from them.
[00:02:46] Leah: Um, the other thing that he talks about that I love is bending curriculum. And he talks about that in his book. And I think we can bend curriculum as a district. We can have a resource that we have, um, and we can bend it to meet the needs of our district. Or, as a teacher, I can bend curriculum. So I think, I'm sure those words are gonna come up today as we talk.
[00:03:08] Olivia: Yes.
[00:03:08] Leah: And then the last thing he says all the time is he talks about being radically pro-kid. And to me, that's what this is all about. As we discuss curriculum, our decisions are made because we wanna be radically pro-kid. We wanna do what's best for every single kid that we come across.
[00:03:26] Olivia: Oh, Leah, I'm sure Cornelius will be beaming to hear how his words have impacted you as a leader, learner, educator.
[00:03:36] Leah: Oh my gosh, yes.
[00:03:37] Olivia: So these days, a problem you and I both have talked extensively about is this push for school districts to just purchase new curricula option after new curricula option. And it's exhausting.
[00:03:51] Olivia: It's exhausting for families trying to acclimate. It's exhausting for teachers to try to acclimate, and this is not new. School districts have purchased new options year after year after year, and I love your words to me: The problem is never once have I seen happy teachers or student growth with this throwing out an old curricula and starting with a fresh new one.
[00:04:14] Olivia: Before we jumped on to record, I was talking to you about listening to Morning Edition, uh, this morning on NPR. And it could not be better timing the Nation's report card, also known as NAEP (The National Assessment of Educational Progress), came out this very day. Um, we're talking on May 3rd, 2023. And it's terrifying.
[00:04:37] Olivia: Yet I am so excited to talk to you because you offer such hope with this conversation. So listeners, hang on. This year's history scores are the lowest recorded since the assessment began in 1994. This new data marks the first-ever drop in civics. So I listened in the car, and then I played it again when I got back to my office, and I thought, okay, so what is this saying to us?
[00:05:05] Olivia: And I think truly a huge part is, um, we are focusing so much on shifting our reading and mathematics instruction. We are, again, losing sight of this siloed perspective of education and curricula creation. We're really forgetting that teaching of civics in history are heavily based on reading comprehension.
[00:05:27] Olivia: So Leah, you're going to speak to a solution today - creating curricula with school districts. You have a whole process you're going to give us. It is a critical step in teachers owning the work and ensuring students are driving their journey. And yet you're adding a layer that I think ties directly back to the NAEP results. You are not just creating literacy-based curricula; you’re creating integrated curricula.
[00:05:53] Leah: Yep.
[00:05:53] Olivia: Bravo to you.
[00:05:55] Leah: Thank you.
[00:05:56] Olivia: …and those lucky school districts that get to work with you. So talk to listeners. How do you define integrated curricula?
[00:06:04] Leah: So I say in the industry, integrated curriculum is usually defined as curriculum that goes across content areas. So, for example, um, just recently, I worked with a group of kindergarten teachers. And rather than starting with what are we teaching in reading or what are we teaching in writing, we took a look at the standards, and one of the things that they're looking at are habitats. So they decided to do an animal study.
[00:06:28] Olivia: Yay!
[00:06:29] Leah: And so they began with coming up with their priority goals. But then we looked at, so what would be happening during reading during this time? And we talked about tech sets. And so not just jumping from topic to topic. But sticking with animals, we talked about writing some animal books together, um, as a class and on their own.
[00:06:49] Leah: We thought about what's the vocabulary? You know, thinking about Tanya Wright from your, um, earlier podcast (S2 E26). Not just defining the word in that moment, but deep word knowledge of words like migration, habitat, needs. We talked about grammar. They were trying out different kinds of sentences. And this comes right from The Writing Revolution-because, but, and so.
[00:07:12] Leah: Bears hibernate because…bears hibernate so…At the end, the kids did a whole presentation where they talked using those grammar sentences and that vocabulary, they took questions. So integrated curriculum doesn't just stay in one area. It goes across. And I think what's interesting, first of all, is the responses I've got back from teachers is that this is joyful.
[00:07:37] Leah: This is incredibly joyful. The kids felt so smart and all kids succeeded. Some kids were using the vocabulary in the presentations. Some kids were using it in their writing. But it's, yes...integrated curriculum really going across all content areas.
[00:07:53] Olivia: I would love to be a kindergartner in that class because it just makes sense. It makes sense that all of our conversations are circling around a topic that is high interest, really engaging. And I love, love, love that they had an end “make” or end presentation with an authentic audience, and so they were working towards something, and you planned with an end in mind. Those are all really good qualities of a well-written curriculum, right?
[00:08:22] Leah: Yep.
[00:08:23] Olivia: And so let's just pause a moment and talk about programs. And what I worry about more than anything else is the lack of teacher autonomy when it comes to how we choose to implement district curricula that's been either purchased or even created, right?
[00:08:45] Olivia: So let's define for listeners what does it mean for us to teach with fidelity? Because I think we'll be of common mind around that.
[00:08:54] Leah: Oh..yeah. So when I'm talking to teachers about teaching with fidelity, I'm really thinking about us coming up with priority goals for whatever unit we're working on. And what those priority goals mean…it's the things that we kind of promise one another that we’ll teach to mastery. And so, and, and again, I think another thing about creating curriculum is that it's always ongoing.
[00:09:18] Leah: So we may create these priority goals, and at the end of the unit, we come back together and say, you know what? That second priority goal that we came up with, we're not sure about that one.
[00:09:27] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:09:27] Leah: Or we feel like we missed out on this. So what I think teaching with fidelity isn't, and I'm gonna go back to Cornelius’s words of bending, like I think sometimes people think fidelity means that if my curriculum says lesson A on Tuesday, I have to be doing lesson A on Tuesday.
[00:09:43] Leah: And so I think that districts can bend curriculum, they can say, um, we looked at our data, And we think we need to add something to this curriculum, or we're gonna pull this out, or we're gonna change the order so the district can bend the curriculum, or a teacher in his or her own classroom can say, it doesn't work this way.I need to add this.
[00:10:05] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:10:05] Leah: And so I think that it doesn't mean that we're changing the final outcome. I go back to one of my favorite quotes from Marie Clay: Our different paths to common outcomes.
[00:10:15] Olivia: Ah! Yes.
[00:10:16] Leah: And so, yes, so having some common outcomes and continually going back to revise curriculum. Even if I go back to that earlier kindergarten example I gave.
[00:10:25] Leah: We looked at writing samples at the end. We looked at data. And we didn't see as much vocabulary inside their final pieces as we would like. And so we went back and revised the curriculum so that next year we think we'll have a better chance of seeing more of that vocabulary inside their writing pieces.
[00:10:43] Olivia: Oh, that's so smart. Think of the word itself – fidelity. And I would ask myself, as an educator and curricula creator, who do we have fidelity to? Is it, is it the document, or is it what we're creating? Or is it, first and foremost, the kids, the students? That, to me, is the starting point. And then, if I have the truest fidelity to the children, okay.
[00:11:10] Olivia: I am going to choose a topic that is super engaging that will get them hooked right away. And they've gotta know the why behind it. Right. And I think too, that topic better help create better human beings ultimately.
[00:11:25] Leah: Yes!
[00:11:25] Olivia: Right? So going back to the civics results coming out, uh, our children need to live as citizens to be better humans. That's the ultimate goal for me of public education. So, when we're talking about fidelity, these long-term unit goals that we're planning out, if we have a chunk of time around a given topic, around a bigger question in the universe, then all of the experiences need to go to some end production or “make” that helps them be a better human and shows an understanding of those bigger questions or big ideas we're trying to help them get out of it.
[00:12:05] Olivia: What I think a, a huge misconception is when it comes to curricula, is a lot of, I think administrators or people outside of education see that lesson planning as the day-to-day slog.
[00:12:18] Leah: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:12:20] Olivia: For me, planning, you have to start bigger picture first.
[00:12:24] Leah: Yes!
[00:12:24] Olivia: Even year long, and then get to unit by unit and have those bigger picture targets or focus ideas. And then as a teacher, you have the autonomy to tailor the daily instruction minute-by-minute based on your kid's needs. But if you don't have that big picture, that's what I need fidelity to. I need to start with the kids being better humans and citizens. So it's been fascinating, that idea of fidelity.
[00:12:50] Leah: Yeah.
[00:12:51] Leah: I wanna respond to two things that you just said cuz they're so brilliant. When you talked about being a better human and kind of big picture…one of the things that I do, a lot in my work, not only priority goals but enduring questions. Enduring understandings and essential questions. One of the essential questions we talked about in the animal unit is: How do we take care of the animals in our world?
[00:13:11] Leah: And I think also there's something, you know, I sometimes get push back and say, teachers are not curriculum writers. Why would you have teachers doing this work? And while, I'd say there are some teachers who don't wanna do this work, and that's fine. And I've been doing this work for 30 years in schools.
[00:13:29] Leah: And there are always teachers who want to be doing this work. And when you do this work, when you sit down, and you say to yourself, what do I want my kids to be able to do at the end of this unit? How will this unit help them to become a better person? And you start putting that down onto the page, or you start looking for that in your curriculum, you then become a better teacher.
[00:13:50] Olivia: Yeah, a hundred percent!
[00:13:51] Leah: That's professional development. I'd say 50% of my professional development now is doing that work with teachers.
[00:13:57] Olivia: Yeah. Well, and Leah, it's all coming back to the why, and so…
[00:14:02] Leah: Yep. Mm-hmm.
[00:14:03] Olivia: …how in the world are children ever supposed to understand why they're living in these units of study if the adult doesn't own the why. And by creating it, or at least being alongside in the conversations between the creation and implementation, you as an adult will better understand that why.
[00:14:24] Olivia: So I am so excited to have you share the explicit process that you've honed over time with school districts to create the integrated curricula. I think it's replicable. It's sustainable, and I love that you shared with me before that there's a constant circle back to resources.
[00:14:46] Olivia: So I'll have you go through the process, but I want listeners to understand, throughout the process, you are always asking: What resources do we have to assist us that we already have? What do we need and how can we leverage them? So the idea of resources is always in mind. Take us through your process. I cannot wait for listeners to hear this.
[00:15:06] Leah: Awesome. Great. Okay, so, um, usually the first step and the important step is forming a cadre. So that this is not for everybody. Not every single teacher wants to be part of this.
[00:15:17] Leah: But in my experiences, there's always people who do. Um, and I think it's important to think about who is going to be on this cadre.
[00:15:25] Leah: And I go back to Cornelius’s words of time in. Of, I wanna make sure that the people on this cadre are up for the idea of listening to people with different views. This is not about somebody coming in and saying; I wanna get my favorite curriculum, my favorite program on here. It is about coming in and really listening.
[00:15:48] Leah: People say, when do you form the cadre? You know, do you form the cadre after you get your new resources? I say you form the cadre today.
[00:15:54] Olivia: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:55] Leah: Um, it's where you are.
[00:15:56] Olivia: Yep.
[00:15:56] Leah: Whether or not you think you're gonna be getting new resources, or you're gonna be keeping the ones you have. You form it now and you begin conversations. So I choose people who want to be on it, who are willing to be in conversation. And who are willing to listen, not to fight back why that person's wrong, but to learn from that person. Um, so…
[00:16:15] Olivia: And Leah, is it multiple grade levels all at once?
[00:16:18] Leah: Yes.
[00:16:19] Olivia: Okay.
[00:16:19] Leah: …in the dreamiest of worlds, there's people from all grade levels. There's a leadership person there. I've had parents on it.
[00:16:28] Olivia: Awesome.
[00:16:28] Leah: …um, to get as many voices in as possible. It's helpful to have somebody who is a classroom teacher who might be doing intervention outside the classroom to have all of those voices together talking.
[00:16:39] Olivia: Yep. So important. I agree.
[00:16:40] Leah: Step two - It's been amazing for me to do this, and I've really tried to do this as much as possible, is start with the school's mission statement. I've sometimes called schools and been like, gosh, I love your mission statement, and they'll say to me, what is it again? And that goes back to what you said, Olivia. We get so far away from why we're here at this work.
[00:16:58] Leah: And so we'll start with the mission statement. Sometimes that leads to revising the mission statement.
[00:17:03] Olivia: Beautiful. Yeah.
[00:17:04] Leah: Yeah.
[00:17:04] Leah: And, but it's like, and then we talk about what does that mission statement mean for our animal unit?
[00:17:10] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:17:10] Leah: You know, what does that mean? If we're making a realistic fiction unit, what does it mean? Does it match? Do we need to change something? Um, and then continually coming back to that. So sometimes, if I'm in a harder conversation, I will pull the mission statement out again and say: Let's take a look at this, and let's have this conversation now with the mission statement in front of us.
[00:17:31] Olivia: That makes sense.
[00:17:32] Leah: Yeah. And then step three, we then create priority goals.
[00:17:36] Leah: We create enduring understandings, essential questions, and we do it unit by unit. We usually start with four core units. And, um, we have conversations across the grade levels. So we're coming up with those priority goals and those enduring questions, but we're holding them against what's kindergarten’s, what's fourth grade’s, what's third grade’s?
[00:17:55] Leah: So ultimately, we create this beautiful sheet that has all the priority goals on one or two pages. So a fourth-grade teacher can see a kindergarten’s and vice versa.
[00:18:09] Olivia: So I wanna pause there before we continue. I keep thinking about the step two and the school's mission statement. And I think it's also critical work I'm doing with districts is having the teachers each create their own mission statement or their own context statement.
[00:18:25] Leah: Love it.
[00:18:25] Olivia: Right? Around what they believe to be true around education and teaching and children.
[00:18:32] Olivia: Um, and then making sure that they can articulate practices that would show those beliefs within a classroom, and then connecting research to it. So I love the idea of, you know, Everyone as a school culture understanding the school’s or the community's mission statement, and then each person saying, well, this is what my mission statement is, that is under that umbrella.
[00:18:58] Olivia: And a question I have for you around priority goals, that gorgeous map you just described.
[00:19:05] Leah: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:05] Olivia: Is it that, like, if the topic is animals and kinder, then what does that look and feel like if you have that doc with essential questions, building on each other's shoulders, how do the topics shift and change across the grades?
[00:19:20] Leah: So in the schools I'm working in, the topics are really coming from the standards.
[00:19:24] Olivia: Okay.
[00:19:24] Leah: The social studies and science that they're doing are coming from the standards. And some of the work I'm doing starts with the topic like animals.
[00:19:34] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:19:34] Leah: Some of the work I'm doing starts with a writing unit or a reading unit. So, for example, another grade was doing, um, historical fiction, but then they decided to connect that to their work on Vermont settlers.
[00:19:49] Olivia: Oh, interesting.
[00:19:49] Leah: And so, so sometimes the major is the science or social studies, and then the reading and writing are underneath it, and sometimes it's the writing and the social studies comes into it.
[00:20:03] Olivia: That makes so much sense. And I was working with a fourth-grade team, and they were deep into the historical fiction unit since you just mentioned it. And they were really wanting the children to understand the journey of a person based on where they are, their setting. And I think that makes it so relevant because the school district in particular is very rural, a, a large farming community…
[00:20:29] Leah: Yep.
[00:20:29] Olivia: …and yet it depends on where you are. Because if you're reading a historical fiction book about someone in New York City that was growing up, it's going to be very different. So I think that, um, we can also connect historical fiction with non-fiction. It's those text sets that are a huge piece of this work, right?
[00:20:47] Leah: Absolutely! And then there's, and then it's like, well, what vocabulary would you use in your realistic fiction story if you're writing about a rural setting?
[00:20:56] Olivia: Yeah. And that's step four, right? That it was a perfect segue into step four, right?
[00:21:01] Leah: Yes, yes!
[00:21:02] Leah: So the next thing that we try to do then is include connected grammar and vocabulary.
[00:21:07] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:21:07] Leah: And then there's a few different ways we can do this. We may go back and look at some of our priority goals, you know, so for example, if the major was the, I'm gonna give an example that the major was the writing, and let's say we had a priority goal about beginnings.
[00:21:22] Leah: Well, we could look at that and say, well, the connected grammar to that, could be answering questions such as: Where did this take place (describing the weather). It could be: When did this take place? It could be that if kids were writing persuasive essays about a topic they were setting in social studies, it could be the perfect time to talk about conjunctions.
[00:21:44] Olivia: Yes.
[00:21:45] Leah: And so again, that conversation helps teachers understand that there's grammar in my writing work already there.
[00:21:53] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:22:53] Leah: So the first thing we do is we go back to the priority goals and we say: What's the vocabulary work in here? And what's the grammar work that's in here? So that teachers understand that. The next thing we often then do is then think about how can we teach these both inside of that (integrated) and are there ways that we would teach this separately so that we could hone in and focus on that?
[00:22:16] Leah: So what might our 10 minutes of grammar instruction look like across the week? If we know we wanna get kids really good at coordinating conjunctions, what would be our grammar? And this is where we might go back and look at our resources. So it may be that we've got a resource for grammar. You know, some of my schools have Patterns of Power.
[00:21:36] Olivia: Yes.
[00:22:36] Leah: And so now they're looking at Patterns of Power and seeing where the work on conjunctions is, and they're sticking that right inside of the curriculum. And again, you know what I think's interesting is that different paths to common outcomes. Some of my schools are really honing into the resource that they have and using it and just bending it a little bit. And some of my schools are creating curriculum and then using the resources to support that.
[00:22:59] Olivia: And I'm looking again at your step five, that idea of planning for cumulative and spaced-out practice. And so when you're saying that time inside and outside of the literacy block or the day, is that step, what you're referring to, the cumulative and spaced out?
[00:23:18] Leah: Part of it.
[00:21:18] Olivia: Okay.
[00:23:18] Leah: So part of it could be that's like whole class cumulative and spaced out practice. So cumulative means I'm not only gonna teach the kids what I'm teaching now, but we're going back to old things as well and bringing that in and spaced out. And so it's happening across the whole unit. So some of that might be whole class, some of that could be in small groups.
[00:23:38] Leah: You know, maybe I have a literacy center where kids are, you know, taking a kernel sentence, um, you know: Bill ran..and they're having to take that sentence and expand that sentence, answering lots of questions. Maybe they've gotta take a sentence and change it to a sentence that has a coordinating conjunction. So that could be sentence-level practice that kids might be doing.
[00:24:04] Leah: Because if I want kids to get really good at it, they need that practice. And I think, um, 20 years ago, if we'd been talking, I, I might have said, oh gosh, but is that gonna be joyful enough for them? And what I found is, I can't say to you every single moment of practice is joyful, but the after-effects of it are what's joyful.
[00:24:29] Leah: I've watched my daughter play soccer for the past year where she went onto a soccer team and didn't know anything about soccer. And I can't say that every moment of her soccer practice was, you know, backhand springs fun. But the pride that she has now, on doing things that she couldn't do before. And I do think sometimes we don't give kids enough practice because we're worried it won't be joyful.
[00:24:53] Leah: And I think we have to be aware if we don't want to, you know, make school a drudgery. But I don't think that kind of practice is a drudgery. And again, it goes back to the mission statement. If we're trying to help all kids reach their potential, for example, um, if kids are still struggling with coordinating conjunctions, then we should give them practice so that by the end of the unit they think, wow, I really can do this.
[00:25:16] Olivia: Yeah, I keep thinking about, “We-Do” Writing, and I use your process. I use the book for many, many different reasons, and what I am constantly bouncing around in my mind, listening to you, is that idea of explicit direct instruction that has to happen and then multiple opportunities for application and transfer.
[00:25:40] Olivia: Because you know in life, you know whether you truly understand something if you can apply it across a variety of content areas in a variety of ways. If you can teach someone else how to do it even better, right? So, I'm thinking about that a lot, and that idea of multiple opportunities, and I fear that people really have no idea what balanced literacy ever was meant to be.
[00:26:06] Olivia: And the original definition of balanced literacy is all about student-driven instruction and the adult tailoring that 2/3 of whatever chunk of time so that it's based on students doing the work. Right?
[00:26:22 Leah: Yep!
[00:26:22] Olivia: I know the last step of this is planning for purposeful independence, but you cannot get to independence unless you've done the long-term planning.
[00:26:32] Olivia: And I love what you just said around small group. Everything we teach, Leah, you can look at the bigger plan and the day-to-day, and that's where, as a teacher, I can say: Look, is this a need right now of most of my students? Is it in need of some of my students, or is it an outlier and in need of one student?
[00:26:56] Leah: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:56] Olivia: Then I can choose how I'm going to provide the instruction. Right? So every day, adults and teachers should have the opportunity and autonomy to choose how instruction is being delivered to children based on their needs.
[00:27:11] Leah: Yep!
[00:27:11] Olivia: And I love that idea of spaced-out practice, the cumulative in mind of how are we going to circle back to this and then help us understand that step six. How do you plan for purposeful independence with all of that in mind?
[00:27:26] Leah: So, at the end of the unit, what I've been saying, to teachers, this should be the time where, you know, if we think about Gradual Release, we're supporting, we're supporting, we're supporting…but the end result of teaching anything in our classes so that kids can do it on their own. And I think the other part is we want kids to see why! Why the heck would you wanna be using coordinating conjunctions in your writing?
[00:27:47] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:27:47] Leah: And so, yes, I do believe in, and I've had time in with people who've talked a lot about sentence-level composition.
[00:27:55] Olivia: Yes.
[00:28:55] Leah: I do think it's super important. However, I don't think it takes the place of the reason you are writing these beautiful complex sentences is to put them into a piece of writing.
[00:28:07] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:28:07] Leah: And so the true essence of having a deep understanding, which, which is what I want, is for kids to be writing. So if, if my kids have been practicing sentences that have a who and a where and a what, they should be writing stories where I can see evidence…
[00:28:21] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:28:22] Leah: …that they put those types of sentences in their writing if they have been practicing being able to do a counter-argument with using conjunctions. Then I wanna see that in their writing.
[00:28:33] Leah: And if I still see them struggling, I can then take it back to the sentence at all and do more practice. And so that their writing gives me a glimpse into, have they mastered this yet? Do they need more practice? If so, what kind of practice are they using the vocabulary we've been talking about? If not, what kind of practice can I give them?
[00:28:51] Leah: But the end of, especially in an integrated unit, we can really see their understanding by what they write.
[00:28:57] Olivia: Absolutely. And I always, I laugh to myself because I hear myself say often it's where the rubber's meeting the road, looking at student artifacts and student work. That's how we begin our conversations often before we say, oh, I'm gonna change this, this, this. You can quickly grab a pile of student writing that they may have done the day before, and it's not just at the end.
[00:29:21] Olivia: I use student writing throughout the whole unit to help plan for instruction, right? It shows vocabulary understandings. There's so much beauty in planning based on student artifacts. So, we've already spoken to once these documents have been starting to be created, they're revisited over and over and over and revised.
[00:29:42] Leah: Yes.
[00:29:42] Olivia: Right? Um, and so, and you also said like you go back at the end of a unit to revise. Uh, how often is the cadre meeting throughout the unit implementation or even over the school year to do the revisions as well?
[00:29:57] Leah: Yeah, so it's different in different schools I'm working in, but there's one district, I'll use an as an example here. We've been working together on this for three years now.
[00:30:05] Olivia: Oh, that's awesome.
[00:30:06] Leah: And in the beginning we met as a summer team.
[00:30:12] Olivia: Okay.
[00:30:12] Leah: And did some work. Then we met four or five times across the year. However, I also had the opportunity to go into their classrooms and into the schools using the curriculum. And so there were also revisions throughout. And so even teachers who weren't part of that initial cadre, they're now doing the curriculum, and so they're bringing their questions and concerns. So it's always changing and growing. And now I'm meeting with them two more days in June to go back and revise it.
[00:30:41] Leah: So the teachers also know this is a working document, and I think that's really different from being handed a curriculum and said, this is what you are to do in your classroom. So these teachers know that if something doesn't seem to be helping their kids grow, that we can have a conversation about and try something else to see if we see a difference in the growth of their students.
[00:31:05] Olivia: And that is agency defined right there.
[00:31:07] Leah: Yes. Mm-hmm.
[00:31:08] Olivia: Right? Like if I know my voice is going to be valued and heard…and I think when we're looking at curricular revisions, I often try to find trends. And so is this something that we noticed with, again, most children, so it does need to be revised, or was it with, uh, a small group of children and why?
[00:31:26] Olivia: What was this pattern? What was this trend? So I love the idea of living, breathing curricula documents that teachers have agency to change and adapt. Let's shift the conversation a little bit because I know you do such brilliant work leaning on Nell Duke's Active View of Reading and your own “We-Do” model of writing to plan for the different buckets of literacy.
[00:31:48] Olivia: So can you speak to that for listeners?
[00:31:51] Leah: I really feel like, um, simple tools for complex work.
[00:31:55] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:31:55] Leah: That the simpler we can make our tools, the more complex work we can have. So, um, every single time I'm coming back to this work, I always put those two models up to remind ourselves what we're trying to do. And what I think about is what those two models do is they show you the buckets of information you wanna be teaching kids.
[00:32:15] Leah: So if we think about Nell Duke, so that's all the work with phonics and phonemic awareness and decoding. And so first of all, we can look at everything and say, are we doing this? Are there gaps?
[00:32:26] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:32:26] Leah: Then we can look at language comprehension. And are we working on this? Are we doing enough read alouds? Are we doing enough vocabulary work?
[00:32:34] Leah: Are we doing this? Um, and then the bridging processes. So holding that up, it's a simple tool…
[00:32:41] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:32:41] Leah: …but it allows us to reflect upon what we're doing and also to plan. And when I made the “We-Do” model of writing, I leaned on that. So my buckets of information are very similar, so it's language conventions. And so we can look at that from the reading angle or we can look at that from the writing angle.
[00:32:57] Leah: Language composition, reading angle or writing angle, and then writing process. So with every conversation I'm having with teachers across all of this, I use that as the, the what? What's our content? And again, if you're using a curriculum to be able to look at it and to say, what do these lessons fall under?
[00:33:19] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:33:19] Leah: It goes back to, some people will say, teachers shouldn't be writing their own curriculum, and what I really believe about that is that when teachers are doing this work of holding those two models alongside their curriculum, it's P.D., it's professional development, it's building their understanding of what they're gonna teach, and the better they understood it, the better they'll be able to teach it.
[00:33:44] Olivia: Well, and I'll make sure in the show notes to include the visuals or links to Nell Duke's Active View of Reading…
[00:33:51] Leah: Yes! Oh good!
[00:33:51] Olivia: …as well as a visual of the “We-Do” Writing, because I think it's important for listeners to have and be able to see those side by side. And Leah, I know lucky ducks that get to attend on June 14th. You’re part of the writing summit called Reboot, Revamp, and Refresh Your School's or Classroom's
Writing Instruction. Can you share a little bit with listeners about that and how they can sign up for that summit?
[00:34:14] Leah: So it's gonna be a really exciting day. I'm gonna start off the day talking about how to use your resources to create a district-wide writing curriculum, so that's gonna be the first hour. It's a K-8. And then there's gonna be tons of breakout groups, some of them by myself and some of them with other educators.
[00:34:32] Leah: The ones I'm gonna be talking about is I'm gonna be talking about leveraging phonics instruction for writing. I'm gonna be doing a second one on leveraging vocabulary instruction and leveraging grammar. So I am super excited. Teachers can come alone, but they can also come with a team. There's gonna be time for team planning and even if people can't come live, it's gonna be recorded.
[00:34:52] Leah: There's even a school I know who's gonna take the recording and do it as PD at their school so that they can talk it through. So it's through First Education. Probably the best way to sign up for it is to go to my “We-Do” Writing Facebook page, and you can sign up right there.
[00:35:05] Olivia: Brilliant, brilliant, and I will make sure to include a link to that in the show notes as well.
[00:35:09] Leah: Awesome. Thank you!
[00:35:10] Olivia: Yeah, I'm so excited that this episode's coming out at the tail end of May, so folks will be able to hear this and sign up still for that June 14th date. And you know, I think it's also important for people to know how to get in touch with you because if I were a teacher or a school district, boy would I love to have you come do this work with my building or my district.
[00:35:35] Olivia: So, what's the best way for listeners to get in touch with you?
[00:35:39] Leah: So they can get in touch with me by joining my Facebook page, which is “We-Do” Writing. I'm on all the social media.
[00:35:45] Olivia: We can put that in the show notes and you have a beautiful website.
[00:35:48] Leah: Oh yes. Thank you. And then www.leahmermelstein.com.
[00:35:52] Olivia: Yeah, and so that could be great too, because that has your contact, right?
[00:35:55] Leah: I love doing this work. You know, during the pandemic, I went and got my supervisory license, and it brought back to the surface the importance of having district-wide conversations about curriculum. Whether you're using a resource, whether you're using a curriculum, or you're, or you're creating on your own, these conversations are vital for a successful curriculum and for successful PD.
[00:36:18] Olivia: Yeah. And for creating successful humans, right? You know, kids that care about the world around them.
[00:36:23] Leah: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:23] Olivia: And that's what we're shooting for. So with that said, I hate to wrap our conversation, but I'm sure this is just one of many. What would you say our call to action is, and any other resources you recommend for creating integrated curricula?
[00:36:37] Leah: So I think our call to action is dialogue, not just debate.
[00:36:42] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:36:42] Leah: And this is true for the whole world of literacy and for curriculum development. You know, there's a difference between the words dialogue and debate. My, my rabbi once pointed it out, um, debate is often listening to figure out what you wanna say in response.
[00:36:57] Leah: And dialogue is truly listening to what the other person has to say. And, um, you know, full transparency I think there's too much debate going on right now, and not enough dialogue. And, um, so my call to action is the next person you're talking to about education, try to have time in, like Cornelius says, and have dialogue
[00:37:20] Leah: And two great books they are oldies but goodies and they, they remind me, um, of how important designing curriculum at the district level is. So two I read from my supervisory courses that are real old but I love them, is Align the Design by Mooney and Mausbach and Schooling by Design - great books to think about creating a district-wide curriculum really in any subject area.
[00:37:43] Olivia: I love it, and I will include links to those in the show notes. Leah, I cannot thank you enough. I looked forward to seeing you and catching up all week, and uh…
[00:37:54] Leah: Me too.
[00:37:55] Olivia: Yeah, I think you have so much to offer when it comes to supporting teachers and students, and this work is really important right now because we want children that care about who they are as citizens and their communities, and this is the way to do it.
[00:38:14] Olivia: This is the way to do it. So thank you for your time and doing this important work.
[00:38:19] Leah: Oh, thank you so much, Olivia.
[00:38:20] Olivia: Yeah, you're the best. Take care!
[00:38:26] Olivia: Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my guest, Leah Mermelstein. Thanks to my older son Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. If you like Schoolutions, please share, rate, review, and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you want to reach out, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website: www.oliviawahl.com/podcast or via email @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Don't forget to talk about us nicely on social media, and please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.