Schoolutions: Curious Educators. Evidence-Based Strategies. Classrooms Where Every Child Thrives.

The Case for Bringing Play Back to School

• Olivia Wahl • Season 2 • Episode 36

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0:00 | 47:36

Global changemakers Renée Dinnerstein and Larry Leaven have a shared commitment to children when it comes to reviving choice time, inquiry, exploration, and play in schools around the world. Their inspiring anecdotes and creative out-of-the-box solutions through this S2E36 Schoolutions conversation, will help listeners immediately put choice time into action.

Episode Mentions:

This conversation is on YouTube too!

Chapters:
0:00 Introduction to Renée Dinnerstein and Larry Leaven
2:00 The educators who shaped their careers
7:00 Why play is disappearing from classrooms
9:30 What choice time actually means
12:15 Play vs. playful instruction
14:00 Starting the day with play instead of using it as a reward
16:50 Why choice time matters more after the pandemic
19:00 Choice time work in Hong Kong and China
20:40 Play across cultures: Rome, Italy, and beyond
24:20 Mixing classrooms to support English language learners
27:20 What teachers learn by observing play
30:25 Why choice time can't be measured on a spreadsheet
33:10 The choice time lab room model
36:50 Focusing on a few students each day
39:10 Building a choice time culture without full staff buy-in
42:25 Final call to action

Thank you to Renée Dinnerstein and Heinemann Publishing who are so generous to offer a PROMO CODE (CHOICE) to receive 30% off Renée's book: Choice Time: How to Deepen Learning Through Inquiry and Play, PreK-2
https://www.heinemann.com/products/e07765.aspx

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🎵 Music: Benjamin Wahl

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Schoolutions – S2 E36: Let's Revive the Importance of Child-Directed Play with Renée Dinnerstein & Larry Leaven

[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am honored to welcome my guests today, a dynamic duo, Larry Leaven and Renée Dinnerstein. Larry Leaven has worked in education for 34 years.

[00:00:25] Olivia: Most recently, as the superintendent of the Florida Union Free School District in Florida, New York. Before that, Larry was the founding director of the Dalton School in Hong Kong for four years, as well as serving two years as the principal of the Beijing International Bilingual Academy in Beijing, China.

[00:00:43] Olivia: I was fortunate to meet Larry 10 years ago when he served in various capacities in New York State, including teacher, principal, adjunct lecturer, and assistant superintendent. In addition to Larry's teaching and leadership roles, he has presented at international education conferences and has served on various nonprofit boards.

[00:01:06] Olivia: Renée Dinnerstein has over 50 years of experience working as an early childhood educator. She taught in Rome, Italy, and in New York City at the renowned PS 321. As well as serving in roles as a teacher director and early childhood staff developer. For the last 20 years, Renée has worked as an early childhood consultant, concentrating on introducing inquiry-based choice time into classes from pre-kindergarten through second grade and helping teachers work with children to develop whole-class inquiry projects.

[00:01:40] Olivia: Lucky for us, Renée continues to present at conferences across the globe. It is my honor to welcome you, Larry, and Renée as guests on Schoolutions. I'm so happy to have you here. 

[00:01:53] Larry: Thank you.

[00:01:53] Renée: It's great to be here.

[00:01:55] Olivia: So, I love to kick off every episode asking my guests who an inspiring educator is from their life. Renée, would you start us off?

[00:02:04] Renée: You know, that's, um, actually an interesting question because there are so many well-known educators, um, who have been influential and who I admire. Vivian Gussin Paley, um, Deborah Meier, et cetera. However, I would say the most influential educator for me is someone named Connie Norgren. Um, Connie and I met at our very first staff meeting before school began in 1968.

[00:02:36] Renée: We were both new to teaching and new to the school, and we just somehow were soulmates, and we kind of found each other. And the big difference between us was that, for me, teaching was something very new at this point in many ways. I was not an education major. When I graduated, I wasn't quite sure what I was doing, and New York City needed teachers desperately, and I was able to take 12 education credits and start teaching.

[00:03:06] Renée: You know, Connie majored in education. She always knew she wanted to be a teacher. She, she had strong ideas about the kind of classroom she wanted to set up. She was just an incredible influence, and we've been really close friends since 1968, and for five years, we had a kind of interesting co-teaching.

[00:03:29] Renée: There was one double room at PS 321 where there were folding doors. And we asked if we could have that double room. And Connie taught first grade. I taught kindergarten. We kept the doors three-quarters closed, one-quarter open, and, um, we had choice time together every single morning after our morning meetings. 

[00:03:51] Renée: And the children spread throughout the two rooms, you know, the kindergarten and first grade together. Which was great because like I had children in my kindergarten who might wanna do something maybe a little bit more sophisticated, whereas she had children who wanted to do a different kind of play. They could do what they wanted, you know?

[00:04:11] Renée: Um, so we did that, and Connie is an incredible folk singer, and we always ended with a meeting together after choice time. And I, I learned all about the importance of singing with children through her. And we did that for five years and, and we did big studies together also. For example, we did a big museum study in New York City, and we went to all different museums, and it was wonderful.

[00:04:35] Renée: Um, but she was really and truly the most inspiring educator that I've met.

[00:04:42] Olivia: I'm sure she'll appreciate that beautiful dedication to her. Um, Larry, how about you? 

[00:04:48] Larry: Oh my gosh. Well, I'm sitting with two right now, actually talking with two right now.

[00:04:52] Olivia: Thanks, friend. 

[00:04:53] Larry: As we speak, it's really super hard, but I would say that when I thought about it, um, the person who comes to mind most readily and most often is a woman named Lois White, who was my student teaching supervising teacher I, I taught with the first time out of the gate as a young teacher.

[00:05:12] Larry: And I was in awe of her sense of possibility in children, her belief in me as an educator, and her trust. I remember I stopped in, uh, in June to meet her before the September student teaching, and we spoke, and I was just watching her with children. It was really unbelievable.

[00:05:34] Larry: And when I got there in September, I observed for three days and she said: I hope you know you're not gonna be sitting any longer because Monday you're beginning. And I said: I don't think I'm ready. She said: I know you're ready. And it was that day forward, she said every single day and did an evaluation by saying: Loved this, try this.

[00:05:54] Larry: And it was never about, this is good, or this is bad. And Lois and I, I left teaching. I got a teaching job in much in part to her belief in me. And we were friends until her death; I was able to sit along her bedside just a couple days, really before Christmas. And the thing that inspired me most was not only in life, but in death she asked how I was, how my husband was, how our child was. She inspired me to this day. I look back at Lois White and say: I was honored to be in her presence.

[00:06:28] Olivia: Well, and something I value tremendously about both of you is your trust and your belief in children. You believe that if we give them the space to play and to grow and to study the world around us, children can. And so I always have an issue that I'm seeing in public education. And then I seek out guests that have multiple solutions for listeners.

[00:06:58] Olivia: And so, Renée, I am going to steal words right, from page five of your beautiful book Choice Time. And then I'll also make sure to give credit to the full title because you are a solution right alongside Larry. 

[00:07:14] Olivia: So the issue I'm seeing is, again, page five of your book, “Given the clear, unequivocal position on play as developmentally appropriate practice by NAEYS, (which is the National Association for the Education of Young Children), you might think time for play is given in early childhood classrooms everywhere. Unfortunately, opportunities for play are disappearing from children's lives both inside and outside of school. Early childhood teachers who believe strongly in the efficacy of play are often thwarted by today's education climate.”

[00:07:53] Olivia: Now, Renée, those words jumped off the page at me in 2016. 

[00:07:59] Renée: Right.

[00:08:00] Olivia: Okay…we're sitting in 2023, and they could not ring more true now!

[00:08:08] Renée: Right.

[00:08:09] Olivia: And so not only are you the solution, Renée, but your blog Investigating Choice Time is a solution. Your book Choice Time: How to Deepen Learning Through Inquiry and Play for Pre-K Through Second Grade, although I think it goes all the way through high school…

[00:08:24] Renée: Yes, I would agree.

[00:08:25] Olivia: Right? Um, those are the solutions. And they are the solution because you recognize and honor many forms of play.

[00:08:33] Olivia: As well as how children experience play in different ways through Gardner's Theory of Multiple Intelligences. Larry, you are the solution because of being a visionary, as well as what my friend Cornelius Minor would say, you are radically pro-kid. Every decision you make as a leader is to create an equitable and safe environment for all students, regardless of their skin color, regardless of their sexual orientation, their gender identity, or any other difference.

[00:09:07] Olivia: Both of you are radically pro-kid, and you believe children can accomplish anything if we give them the space. So, um, thank you for being guests because listeners will benefit from your solutions. So, Renée, kick us off. Would you define choice time for listeners and why it's critical now more than ever? 

[00:09:28] Renée: Okay, so first I have to say something about play itself in that I watched a video clip of a teacher in a, in a preschool, um, with a four-year-old. And this four-year-old was sitting at a table playing with, uh, Play-Doh. He's rolling it and banging on it, et cetera. And this very smart teacher said just to the air, he just spoke like he was just thinking out loud.

[00:09:56] Renée: I wonder what play is? What is play? The little boy paid no attention to him. Absolutely no attention. And after a few minutes, the teacher had to get up and go somewhere else in the classroom. So when he stood up to go, the little boy stopped playing with the Play-Doh looked up at him and said: Play is what I do when nobody tells me what to do. 

[00:10:19] Olivia: Ah!

[00:10:19] Renée: Okay? Which just stayed with me. That really stayed with me. So in my book, I'm actually writing about play in the classroom as opposed to what I think is incredibly important is play outdoors. I think that they're equally important. It saddens me when I see that teachers don't give children a lot of time outdoors with them being there because we learn so much about children when we watch them playing all on their own without our intervention at all.

[00:10:49] Renée: But play in the classroom or choice time, okay. During choice time, the teacher is very intentional in setting up environments that will invite children to explore and play. So, for example, the block area, I love those big wooden blocks, and I think that children learn so much from them and they have such a good time with them.

[00:11:13] Renée: But teachers need to be intentional about how they're setting up the blocks, where they're placing the blocks, because they need to have a lot of space. Especially children that don't have that control over their bodies. And if it's tight, they'll knock blocks over and get into altercations. And I outline all of that in my book.

[00:11:33] Renée: Um, but once the children go into the block area, that's entirely up to them what they're gonna be doing there. It's not up to the teacher. There's not an agenda for it. There's not a task involved. The same thing with say, the art area. I mean, as a teacher I might demonstrate how to use a particular tool that I'm putting in the art area.

[00:11:57] Renée: Um, you know, some kind of skill with it. I don't tell them to do it, but I'm demonstrating it. I might give them a chance to try it on the rug together to see how it works and say, you know: I'm gonna put all of these out in, in the art center in case anybody wants to use it. But the children decide what they're gonna be doing there.

[00:12:14] Renée: That said, since I wrote the book in 2016, and I've been in classrooms, and I've been thinking about things, and I can't go back and change things, et cetera, but what I would say is when I had choice time in my classroom, some areas were like totally up to the children and they were true choice play, but then there were some areas that might be playful but weren't as free.

[00:12:39] Renée: So, for example, there would be a cooking center. And so there was something we were doing, we were baking a pie, or we're making pancakes or whatever. So sometimes there is something that's more playful, but generally, it's really open for the children. And I think the distinction between play and playful is also something to think about.

[00:13:01] Renée: You know, I think all of education should be playful. It's the nature of children. But play is more the children have their agenda and they know what they're doing. There is not a task involved. All right. I don't know if that's all clear, but.

[00:13:18] Olivia: It is, you know, and it's making me think of my work these days with older children, middle and high school even. Where we are trying to hook kids and have them be engaged at every step of their learning journey. And a huge part of being engaged is being curious. 

[00:13:37] Renée: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:37] Olivia: And so play, playfulness, choice time, they all foster that curiosity.

[00:13:44] Olivia: One can be driven by the child. As teachers or adults, we can facilitate curiosity with what we choose to put out for them or what we choose to model. But I think that I've seen in my own children the years that they had explicit, carved daily time for play in and out of their classrooms; their stamina for everything else in life grew exponentially.

[00:14:13] Olivia: And my younger son, who's now in fifth grade, he is still able to sustain tasks, no matter what it is, for very long periods of time, whether he's working by himself or whether he's working with another group of children. And I think that speaks to his very early foundations with choice time and play. 

[00:14:32] Renée: Well, it's interesting what you said because, um, I always did choice time first thing in the morning. We had a morning meeting, but then choice time was like an hour after morning meeting. And so I try to encourage teachers to do that. And then what I get from them is, well, you know, they'll be too tired to do math and writing and reading and all that.

[00:14:55] Renée: And I often cannot convince them that this actually gives them the energy and the inspiration to do whatever - everything else. You know? And occasionally, I'll have a teacher, this one teacher, a Fanny Roman, she's marvelous teacher, and she listened to me. She scheduled choice time for first thing in the morning, and she said it changed the day.

[00:15:18] Renée: It just changed the day. The children were just calm. They felt better. I wish I could convince teachers and administrators how important it is to really start the day this way. You know, it really makes a difference.

[00:15:32] Olivia: Well, Renée, I published an article based on my younger son's kindergarten teacher, and I did reach out to you and ask your thinking around starting the day with play. Because this teacher, Mary Anne Camel, also started the day with play. And something you'd said to me years ago was that often play is dangled as a carrot throughout the day.

[00:15:51] Renée: Yeah, that’s right.

[00:15:51] Olivia: For children, right? And so if you're not well-behaved, this may go away. And taking that notion of trust and no, no, we're going to savor every moment of starting our day off with this tone of inclusivity, and it's going to set a positive tone for you throughout the day. There's no dangling carrot, right?

[00:16:11] Renée: Right?

[00:16:11] Olivia: But also, that idea of doesn't it make you want to come to school that much more?

[00:16:17] Renée: Mm-hmm! Absolutely. The children raced into the room! 

[00:16:19] Olivia: Right?!?

[00:16:19] Renée: And we had a chart of what was available in the classroom that week. And they invariably ran to that chart first, and they're looking at it together, and they're talking about it: No, I did this yesterday and I wanna go back again today. And, uh, I, I wanna try something else, or, you know, whatever.

[00:16:36] Olivia: It’s so incentivizing in a really healthy way. And Larry, in your role as a leader, why do you see that choice time is more important now with everything we've endured through the pandemic than ever before?

[00:16:52] Larry: I couldn't help but think while you were both talking about, and Renée will say this better than I do, but Loris Malaguzzi, the Regio Amelia founder, um, what you guys were just talking about, Loris gave a speech in ’93, and there was a section that said that: “…both children and adults need to feel active and important.

[00:17:09] Larry: Be rewarded by their efforts, their own intelligences, their own activity and energy. When a child feels these things are valued, they become a fountain of strength for him. He feels the joy of working with adults who value his work, and this is one of the bases for learning.” 

[00:17:26] Larry: And it goes with exactly what you are talking about. I was told by a variety of educators who said, reach out to Renée Dinnerstein when I was trying to start and found Dalton. Hong Kong is very much a community where it is scripted and it's not about joy. It’s about completion and doing what you're told, basically. So, utilizing this idea of play as an avenue for learning was something that I was excited about, and spent a lot of time researching Susan Harris MacKay's work when she was at the Opal School.

[00:18:03] Larry: We looked at this talking with Renée. And we were able to drill down something about play that we could help the parents understand, and it was that the opposite of play is not work; it's depression. Without that opportunity, children cannot thrive. And so it was that kind of energy that moved us at Dalton, and collaborating with Renée, we could give a thousand examples of how it worked and how children were changed by that approach. 

[00:18:35] Olivia: Well, and I just wanna give a shout-out as well. I know in 2018, the Beijing Normal University Press published your book Choice Time in Mandarin. That's phenomenal. That was a lot of work behind the scenes with you and Larry and your collaboration, making that happen. Just giving access to your brilliance to more people around the globe.

[00:18:57] Olivia: And then Renée, you did a WeChat discussion that was listened to by over 100,000 teachers in China!

[00:19:06] Larry: Yes. 

[00:19:07] Olivia: So I know you just spoke a bit to where your choice time journey, we'll call it, began, but how has it developed over the years from when you first reach out to Renée to where you are now as close collaborators and friends? 

[00:19:23] Larry: Wow. That's a great question. We kept in touch a great deal over the time while I was at Dalton School. I was there for four years. Upon returning, our friendship grew. It remains to this day. As a superintendent, I went into a very small district where there were only two sections on a grade and it was a place where we were seeking joy and we were trying to say, how can we find ways to make this happen?

[00:19:49] Larry: And it was during COVID. And Renée said, you know, I'm a little bit anxious about going through this process right now just because the world's upside down. But she believed in everything that we were thinking about. And I have to say that our time together, most recently, it was very clear, and it took some convincing on the part of teachers to see what's the point?

[00:20:10] Larry: Why are we doing this? And when they let go of that and could see children leading their own learning, getting excited, painting their own portrait, and seeing their face and their voice. Uh, echoed in the classroom. I mean, it really was a palpable experience.

[00:20:27] Olivia: Renée, with your worldwide experience around teaching in Rome and in the States as well, how has play or choice time been valued or prioritized in the different environments that you've experienced? 

[00:20:41] Renée: Well, when I was in Rome, my husband, my daughter, and I were living there for two and a half years. Okay. I couldn't actually get a full-time, regular job in the school because I couldn't get a working permit that way. But my daughter was going to a Montessori School. And it was kind of interesting because parents wanted the children to experience English.

[00:21:06] Renée: The school was Italian. And so the way they got around it was the parents paid me privately to have a class set up. And what I did with them, I thought, well, okay, here are four-year-olds learning English. Let's play, you know. 

[00:21:22] Renée: And, and basically, that's what we did, and we played, and we cooked, and we went shopping for food to cook in that way where we got to talk about the different fruits and things like we were buying.

[00:21:32] Renée: But in general, when I lived there, so that was in this late seventies when I lived there. When I lived there, I would say that the general school population in Italy then was very traditional. Very traditional. And my daughter went to first grade there in the state school, and you know, the teacher was on a platform, and the children sat in rows, and they had like little white uniforms.

[00:22:01] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:22:01] Renée: And, and everything they said copia like, copy, copy, copy. You know, and, and her notebook was all copying. So that's what it was like then. And I keep in touch with friends there, and now it's their grandchildren who are going to school. And they said little by little it's changing. It's changing a bit. And I think that perhaps what's happening in Northern Italy, in Regio Amelia, and in other small areas, the pockets of areas there where play and investigation and honoring the child, um, are so important.

[00:22:36] Renée: I think that maybe that's starting to have an impact. And even in China, there's AnjiPlay. I don't know if you've seen that, but it's very exciting. And actually, I wanna give credit, by the way, to Nancy Du, who was, um, was she your co-director, or what was she there?

[00:22:54] Renée: Larry? I'm not exactly sure of her title.

[00:22:57] Larry: Nancy was the assistant principal in Beijing with me for one year, and then she and I were the co-founders of Dalton together, and yeah, she is truly incredibly brilliant. She's now Head of Primary in Singapore.

[00:23:13] Renée: Right, so she translated my book. She's was the translator, and I'm sure it was so much work for her to do, and we always had to talk about, like, what does this mean? She was unfamiliar with some of the things there. I have another close friend who was an educator in London, and she said, what's happening here is happening there, unfortunately.

[00:23:33] Olivia: Ah, interesting. Yeah.

[00:23:34] Renée: So I think that there's a real strong need to revive the importance of play. And I think we're fighting a tough battle. We're fighting a, a very tough battle here,

[00:23:47] Olivia: But Renée, I would also pause because what you mentioned when we just started talking about this was that you taught children English through play in Rome. And so, what better way to foster communication than through play? Through being engaged! After the pandemic, our children are sorely lacking from being isolated.

[00:24:11] Olivia: The right hand doesn't seem to be shaking the left when it comes to common sense, because the idea of play is the way to engage our children naturally. 

[00:24:20] Renée: I'll tell you about an experience in a school in New York City public school in an area called Chinatown, and I was doing work in a school. And not because the principal believed this, but the superintendent insisted that in the kindergarten and the first grades that, which were the two years that I worked with that they separated.

[00:24:41] Renée: In other words, they separated the children who could speak English well, were in one class. The children who were in the middle were in another class. The children who didn't know any English were all together in one class. You know, and, and obviously… 

[00:24:54] Olivia: Pretty ineffective, right? 

[00:24:55] Renée: Absolutely! And so I met with the first-grade teachers, and we were going to do a study, some kind of an inquiry study or something that would get the children excited.

[00:25:05] Renée: Luckily, the teachers were, they were really kind of, this was new to them, but they were very turned on by it, and they were three first grades on the first floor and three on the second floor of the school. And what they thought was the children would be really interested in animals. And so they let the children look at lots of books about different kinds of animals that they might be able to have.

[00:25:26] Renée: Which kind could we have in the classroom, and which kind could we not have in the classroom, and why not? And then they narrowed it down with the children, right? And um, what they did was on each floor, each teacher, based on what the children were interested in, got one of those. One class had Guinea pigs, another class had turtles, and I can't remember what they, one had insects, et cetera.

[00:25:49] Renée: And then the children chose which ones they really wanted to concentrate on. And what they did then was when it was inquiry time and center time, they switched classrooms and they all mixed up together and they went into the room with the animal that they were interested in and they built things for them and they did all sorts of things.

[00:26:12] Renée: But what the teachers found was that by playing together in these rooms, the children who didn't speak English to start with were starting to speak English. 

[00:26:22] Olivia: Yeah!

[00:26:22] Renée: Because they were all playing together. It was so obvious, you know? 

[00:26:24] Olivia: Yeah. When I first started teaching in San Diego, all of the children at the school were bilingual. We had a very large Somali population, but we carved a solid hour every day for play at K-2 level. And what it was also telling is how the children would mirror or mimic the adults in the room through play.

[00:26:45] Larry: Mm-hmm…

[00:26:45] Olivia: So good, bad, and ugly. It was pretty telling, 

[00:26:49] Renée: Right! That's true.

[00:26:51] Olivia: Right? It would be fascinating to see children with read aloud books sitting and pretending to be teachers with each other or, just in general, the play that was happening. And most of the time, it was pretty lovely, but I think we lose sight of the benefits of play to be reflective on ourselves as educators as well, to see our beliefs coming alive through their play. 

[00:27:16] Renée: And what we need to change.

[00:27:18] Olivia: Yeah. 

[00:27:19] Larry: Yeah, for sure. And I, I was just going to add to that, the fact that helping our teachers really understand the importance of play and how play provides content and relationship understanding for children, I think one of the big aha moments at Dalton was when we would spend time noticing and noting what's happening in play.

[00:27:43] Larry: Is a child always going to the same place? Are they playing alone? Are they playing with each other? Can they disengage from something and engage into another place? How is self-regulation? I mean, just the list was long, and our teachers sometimes would just see it all happening, but when you really are forced to say, wait a minute, I'm not gonna teach to this.

[00:28:03] Larry: I'm gonna observe to this. And then add that then to the work I'm doing. And Renée did such a beautiful job with the teachers around purposeful planning within a center, but also the idea of defining purposeful play. And it was just such a beautiful interconnectedness of our important work.

[00:28:23] Olivia: Well, and Larry, think of the experience your mentor provided you of, this is what I saw with you as a student teacher, and this is what you need next. I don't think as adults in classrooms, we give ourselves permission to get down at a child's level and observe really closely, watch children, and just get our voice out of the mix.

[00:28:48] Olivia: Play is such a beautiful opportunity to do that, and so those lenses you just offered listeners, Larry, those are fabulous. And I would say look for patterns with your children to see when do they have the most stamina throughout the day. When do they engage or disengage? Because the way they navigate the world in play, when it's very student-driven or self-driven, it can be indicative of other openings you can have with them when they're less engaged. Right? So that content development as well. Yeah. 

[00:29:22] Larry: And I was just gonna say, going back to Renée's influence around this idea of teachers as researchers, and we become researchers, and children as researchers as well, but we become researchers when we do exactly what you said, Livi. We listen. We watch; we’re quiet. You know, we take that time. And in education today, it's about what's the next unit, what's the next thing?

[00:29:44] Larry: What's the, yeah.

[00:29:45] Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. And we have to stop the madness because even at the high school level, teaching to the test, getting the content packed in. The kids are getting so little out of it. It's like the year's done. They don't remember anything. The idea of going in-depth and less is more. It's how we're going to develop better human beings ultimately, right?

[00:30:05] Larry: Right.

[00: 30:05] Olivia: …because they'll retain and connect with the information and their learning. 

[00:30:09] Larry: Can I just add one thing, Liv?

[00: 30:11] Olivia: Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:30:11] Larry: It’s just that I can't stop thinking about when I think of Renée's work; choice time is really critically important. It's carved out within the school and it's honored. But it's also, there's the and of inquiry, right? There's the and of inquiry with Renée's work.

[00: 30:27] Olivia: I agree.

[00:30:27] Larry: Where, like at Dalton, we were doing an inquiry on bridges, and the teachers through that inquiry were also able then to weave in some of the learning into choice time.

[00:30:38] Larry: That was thoughtful. In the past as a principal, I was observing teachers who were doing centers, and they felt almost so divorced from the children they were serving. And the beauty of choice time and integration of inquiry is that it is always child as the center, and then the work happens along the way.

[00:30:56] Renée: Right, right. One other thing is that you can't have a spreadsheet to evaluate choice time. You know, I mean, it seems to be an obsession when I speak to teachers in New York City, at least lately, of looking at spreadsheets for the data for this and that, and which child is lagging behind and like, you can't do that for choice time.

[00:31:18] Renée: You know, you have to write things down. You have to be descriptive. You have to wonder. You have to think of questions. You know, what am I thinking about this? What is this making me think about? How, what am I learning about this child? What am I learning about the center? That's the only way you could do it.

[00:31:33] Renée: You cannot do it on a spreadsheet.

[00:31:35] Larry: Well, it’s. It's Renée. It's demystifying what assessment is.

[00:31:38] Olivia: Yes, yes. 

[00:31:39] Larry: Assessment really is sitting alongside a child. So I could create all kinds of, of spreadsheets for choice time, but the reality is exactly what you're saying. What's the profile within the relationship that I have as a teacher, and what a joy that is to have that relationship?

[00:31:54] Larry: And Livi, I think if your work at Sweet Home, that little boy in kindergarten who had such a miserable kindergarten year and then by first grade was writing all about books regarding backhoes… 

[00:32:03] Olivia: Yes. 

[00:32:03] Larry: …and he became this amazing researcher artist. But because we got out of the way…

[00:32:08] Olivia: Yeah. 

[00:32:10] Larry: …and we said, what do you love? Who are you? People are afraid to do that because it's what we love as educators, not what children love. And that they bring things every day; for us to learn. Right? That's humbling. For sure. 

[00:32:21] Olivia: It is, it is. I've actually shifted Larry, even from our time working together when I am jumping into any teacher's classroom, the notes I'm taking, thanks to coaching from Sam Bennett. It's noting what I see and hear (in story format for myself) and then why this matters most to children. Um, and then research that has my back that aligns and supports it.

[00:32:48] Olivia: And so I'm trying to get smarter every second of being in classrooms by making sure it's not me saying that this is valuable, but it's Renée Dinnerstein's research. It's all of the experts out there that have our back to support these beautiful practices. So oftentimes we think of choice time as a classroom-by-classroom.

[00:33:10] Olivia: But Larry and Renée, you did something quite brilliant in Florida, New York, with the choice time lab room. Would you please describe that awesomeness to listeners? Because I think it's a way that we can get choice time cooking in different ways in a district, different possibilities. 

[00:33:30] Larry: Well, it's one of those things where, you know, um, I can't think of the right phrase I wanna say right now, but it's like, you know, you whittle down to whatever's gonna work, right? 

[00:33:40] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:33:40] Larry: And it was one of those situations where I think Renée and I knew, and I'm gonna shut up after this, but I think Renée and I knew that we were not going to be able to convince all pre-K, K-1 and two teachers to structure their classroom in this way to make sure there's time for this to happen.

[00:33:58] Larry: But we did have staffing available, and we had space. And so I said to Renée, what could we imagine as the best place? We make space for it, and I write it into the schedule so that it has to happen. And our intent was that Linda, the one teacher, she would handle it. The classroom teachers still had to come in.

[00:34:21] Larry: But they didn't have to plan for it. They were supposed to really work in observing and take things away to then weave into their work. So it was really about how do we make this happen, um, when not everyone's feeling excited about it?

[00:34:34] Olivia: That's what I love. Yeah. 

[00:34:35] Larry: Renée, I'll leave it to you.

[00:34:35] Renée: But you know, I'll tell you, I worked with Linda and she was wonderful. And we talked about like, what is this all about? How could we make this the children's space, not our space? And, you know, and, and what kinds of centers do we wanna have? For example, we want to have dramatic play center, you know? And so the first thought that Linda had was, what furniture do we need?

[00:34:59] Renée: And then I thought, you know, why don't we not get furniture? Why don't we just get great big hollow blocks? Put them there, put some other things that they could use with it and see what happens? And, oh, those children went right for it. You know, they understood it, that they could make what they wanted.

[00:35:17] Renée: They made a restaurant, they made a car, they went on a trip. I had video of it that she sent me. They got a big map and okay, we're going across country. And they made an airplane when somebody was directing the plane. And um, you know, they came up with this. Nobody else thought of this. And the interesting thing that happened was this was for Pre-K, kindergarten, first grade, and second grade.

[00:35:40] Renée: Okay. But part of the day, Linda would take over for teachers in some way in the third grade, and she did reading or something, I can't remember. And so there was one day when she had the third graders, and she thought, you know, I'm just gonna bring them into, see what happened. She brought them into that choice time room, and she sent me a video of what happened when they were there.

[00:36:05] Renée: First of all, they were hyper because they were so excited. They couldn't believe that they could actually do all of these things, you know? And she brought them back another time. She sent me videos of it, and you know, they loved it. 

[00:36:18] Renée: They just loved it, and they really used that space so well. You know, and that speaks to what you said before, this is for everyone, not just pre-K through second grade. I think, actually, from my point of view, the sad thing about it now, now that Larry's not there, is that the room at this point is still happening. The children come, but the teachers don't come with them. And so the idea was for the teachers to really learn about what to do. Sadly for them, Larry's not there.

[00:36:50] Olivia: And what a lost opportunity because something that I'll often speak with teachers about, you know, if you have 25 to 30 students as an elementary teacher in your class, you know, it can feel overwhelming to have a clear picture of each child every day. And Larry, there was something you told me years ago around focusing seven minutes on different children over a day.

[00:37:17] Olivia: I remember that seven-minute number. And I took that, and what I say often to teachers now is if you focus on three to four children each day and, in your mind, really follow them all day long, see who they eat lunch with. Um, of course, you're going to have choice time in your day because how could you not see who they play with? Right? Really study those three to four children throughout the entire day. Cause you have the gift of your minutes. You own your minutes as an elementary teacher. You will always find strengths for those children. And then the next day circle in on three to four other children. And by doing that, you know, you really do have a, a glimpse into their soul of what matters to them as people.

[00:38:02] Olivia: So, Renée, what a lost opportunity for them, but thank goodness for many other places across the world that value play and that the teachers see what they can learn from observing their children closely. Yeah.

[00:38:16] Larry: And I would say Livi because, again, I believe in this as a principal. I believed in this... I just think that the power comes from teachers who are willing to take risks, who are willing to put themselves out there, and who are doing that, see and hear what matters and then doing the research work. I would say to teachers, and Renée has examples of teachers she's worked with where their surrounding colleagues are maybe more traditional or might not have that same vision, but they believe.

[00:38:44] Larry: I would hope that none of my principal or leadership colleagues would squelch someone who has the evidence behind them, the passion behind them, the belief in children, an image that you know that every child can do and has capacity. So I would encourage teachers, you know, if they wanna try it, try it small, and show those successes all along the way.

[00:39:08] Renée: Yeah, I agree. I definitely agree.

[00:39:10] Olivia: Well, and this is a perfect segue to our call to action. I'd love for both of you to name what is our call to action to ensure choice time is happening in our early childhood classrooms. Renée, what would you say our call to action is? 

[00:39:24] Renée: Oh my goodness. Um, you know, this is, um, this is a big question for me because one of the reasons why I decided to not work this year was because I was finding it so frustrating. Um, and sad. I was getting sad because I couldn't see enough happening. Um, and I got tired of fighting it, but then I'm home, and I feel like I'm fighting it at home inside me.

[00:39:49] Renée: Well, I'll give an example of one school that I've been working in where I worked with the kindergarten and the pre-K. All right. And then one kindergarten teacher moved up to first grade, so I still did some work with her cuz she wanted to keep working with me. But not with the second grade (the school went up to third grade). But there was a second-grade teacher who saw what was happening in those grades, and she really wanted to do that.

 

[00:40:19] Renée: She really did. And I convinced the principal, whenever I was there, to give me some time with her. And if he couldn't do it, I ate lunch with her. You know, and she has choice time in her room. She's been doing inquiry studies and she gets a lot of flack from the other teachers on the grade. Um, they said it's too noisy in her room.

[00:40:41] Renée: She has choice time. She said it's really not that noisy. It’s just children, you know.

[00:40:45] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:40:45] Renée: And it's making it hard for them because there's pressure on them that they should be doing it. But she keeps at it. In fact, she's called me this week and said, can we talk and just do some planning? You know, and she actually interviewed, uh, at my request, children who had been in her class, who were then in third grade and asked them to reflect on, um, choice time.

[00:41:08] Renée: And it's so touching what the children said about how important it was in their life and how one little girl said: I used to be so shy, and I didn't have friends, and this helped me to become friends. And everybody should have choice time because then everybody would be friends.  You know? So I don't know if that's a call to action, but I think it's to recognize that you could be the one in your school on your grade to give it a try. And document, document, document, document. You know, document it for yourself, do visual documentation so others can see it. You know, have a visual documentation of the process of play. 

[00:41:49] Olivia: Renée, I'd also say that it's important for people to know that feel like they're being thwarted, that there is a large community, a worldwide community, that believe in this work. Circle up with those people…

[00:42:04] Renée: That’s right.

[00:42:04] Olivia: …because I'm sure that phone conversation with you for that teacher was grounding, right? When you feel like no one else has your back, find others that do that you can circle up with, right? 

[00:42:15] Renée: Right. There's a very good organization called Defending the Early Years also that has a lot of good work and they're good supports for teachers, I think. 

[00:42:24] Olivia: Brilliant. Thank you, Renée.

[00:42:25] Olivia: Larry, how about you?

[00:42:28] Larry: Renée said a mouthful for sure. And as a leader, I think of a call to action. I go back to what we had said in Hong Kong is like the opposite of play is not work; it’s depression. And, and if we see that as really that call to action, how do we help children self-regulate without giving opportunity? How do we teach children to have agency and voice without that opportunity?

[00:42:49] Larry: So I would say that that really is a call to action, and it must happen early. You know, we get to be a child once, and I think that's really the critical piece. I dunno if you're familiar with Margie Carter, but I can't help but thinking of a article that she wrote calledMaking Your Environment “The Third Teacher.”

[00:43:07] Larry: And if we are really thinking about what our classrooms can look like, that what we value, and I think Renée has helped me see that. How do our classrooms speak about our beliefs? Um, and I've visited a lot of schools doing some consulting work all around the world and have had a chance to visit. 

[00:43:25] Larry: And the places where there is the most joy, I think where there is the most possibility and where children say, look what I'm doing and fill in the blank, are those places where they have agency and a belief that they are absolutely in charge of their learning.

[00:43:40] Renée: Right. I, I'm going to just say something really quick. There's a child psychiatrist. He has his pediatric psychiatric clinic in Massachusetts, who I've spoken with. And he actually spoke on my blog, and he said that in his clinic, they have a new diagnosis, which is played deprived. 

[00:43:57] Olivia: Wow. 

[00:43:58] Renée: It's something to think about, right?

[00:44:00] Olivia: That is indeed. Well, you both are just inspiration for so many of us. Renée, you know, it has been a hard time, and it has felt sad. And the joy I find still gets me out of bed every day is getting into classrooms and being with our children because they’re hope, and um, both of you not only believe in children having agency, but autonomy. That trust that they know what they need as learners.

[00:44:29] Olivia: So, thank you so much for your time and what you do for the children in our world.

[00:44:34] Renée: Thank you for giving us the opportunity to speak. 

[00:44:38] Larry: Yes. Thank you so much. And I would just wanna add one little thing here that I have to say. Our teachers right now it's a tough time for them. Our librarians, our teachers, and if teachers want an opportunity to just breathe and relax, allow this opportunity of choice time and children to play. Because when I was in Hong Kong, we had two-year-olds in the building as well.

[00:45:00] Larry: And you know, we're building the school, and there was all these stressors. And I remember two o'clock in the afternoon, I'd go and sit with the two-year-olds, and it would absolutely inspire me to say, okay, tomorrow's a new day, and my two-year-olds told me I can do this. So we can do this.

[00:45:14] Olivia: We can do this, we can do this. Indeed. Uh, take care, Renée and Larry. Thank you so much.

[00:45:21] Olivia: Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my guests, Renée Dinnerstein and Larry Leaven. Thanks to my older son Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. If you like Schoolutions, please share, rate, review, and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you want to reach out, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website: www.oliviawahl.com/podcast or via email @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Don't forget to talk about us nicely on social media, and please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.

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