Join the brilliant M. Colleen Cruz as she illuminates why mistakes are not the problem but part of learning. Colleen’s most recent book, Risk. Fail. Rise.: A Teacher's Guide to Learning from Mistakes offers strategies for exploring why mistakes happen and how we can destigmatize mistake-making to encourage a risk-taking learning culture.
Thank you to Colleen and bookshop.org, who are so generous in offering a 10% off PROMO CODE (RISK10) for Risk.Fail.Rise.: A Teacher’s Guide to Learning from Mistakes.
Episode Mentions:
Connect and Learn with Colleen:
Get solutions from Schoolutions!
#solutionsfromschoolutions #schoolutionsinspires #schoolutionspodcast
Join the brilliant M. Colleen Cruz as she illuminates why mistakes are not the problem but part of learning. Colleen’s most recent book, Risk. Fail. Rise.: A Teacher's Guide to Learning from Mistakes offers strategies for exploring why mistakes happen and how we can destigmatize mistake-making to encourage a risk-taking learning culture.
Thank you to Colleen and bookshop.org, who are so generous in offering a 10% off PROMO CODE (RISK10) for Risk.Fail.Rise.: A Teacher’s Guide to Learning from Mistakes.
Episode Mentions:
Connect and Learn with Colleen:
Get solutions from Schoolutions!
#solutionsfromschoolutions #schoolutionsinspires #schoolutionspodcast
[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am honored to welcome my guest today, Colleen Cruz. Colleen is an independent consultant and a fierce advocate for the students and teachers with whom she shares her passion for accessibility, research-based instruction, and equity. As an educator with over two decades of experience in both general education and inclusive settings, Colleen doesn't shy away from the hard stuff. It is my honor to welcome you, Colleen, as a guest on Schoolutions.
[00:00:44] Colleen: I'm so excited to be here.
[00:00:46] Olivia: I'm thrilled to have you. And I kick off every episode by asking guests who an inspiring educator is from their life. Will you share with listeners?
[00:00:55] Colleen: I mean, and it's funny because I've listened to a couple of episodes, and literally everyone has said the exact same answer, which is so hard. How can I possibly choose? Um, but I'm actually going to go with the person who I just got off the phone with before, uh. I talked to you, one of my dearest friends.
[00:01:21] Colleen: Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul, um, who is an extraordinary educator of children and adults, um, and just humans, um, walking around. And I feel like every time I talk to her, like we were having just a short chat before I jumped on the call, I learn something else. Um, the way she centers, everyone's full humanity and models caretaking, um, of, of you as a human, um, and, and doesn't shy away from the things that a lot of people, um, shy away from.
[00:02:09] Colleen: And I really do appreciate that she always centers the folks who have been historically most marginalized. And, um, yeah, so brilliant. And if you don't know her work, um, if you've never seen her speak or been taught by her, definitely look her up.
[00:02:26] Olivia: Fabulous. Um, and I feel a lot of the same way about you. Um, our conversation is going to on your book, Risk.Fail.Rise. I have it right next to me. Let's just. There it is. There it is.
[00:02:39] Colleen: Yay!
[00:02:39] Olivia: And, um, I've realized what a haze I was in during COVID because I've, I read voluminously yet didn't retain enough. And so, I've recently gone back, and I'm nudging everyone in my life - um, adults, my own children, uh, educators to please read this book.
[00:02:59] Olivia: Um, because it addresses so many issues that we have in society, uh, bigger than education. Um, But the issues I'm going to name are perfectly articulated in the introduction. Um, two quotes. Uh, “We tell kids we value mistakes, but at the end of every marking period, they're judged on those very things we tell them not to worry about.”
[00:03:23] Olivia: Um, “In addition, we as educators need better models of practice on mistake making.” And this book offers just those opportunities to really be reflective. Um, and again, in your intro, you name the solution, and this is why I was like, oh, I've got to have Colleen as a guest! “If we can create school cultures where we talk honestly about mistakes, then we can grow and create opportunities for children to grow in all the ways they deserve, and we deserve those opportunities too.”
[00:03:54] Olivia: Boom! So, I've got to know, listeners have to know, why did you write this beautiful book?
[00:04:03] Colleen: Well, it's funny, I'm so thrilled that you found it. Cause I felt a little bit, this was the first book that I wrote that, I said to myself, if no one reads it, I don't kind of care.
[00:04:16] Colleen: You know, like in movies, you'll see people climb up to a hilltop and like yell into the universe some like, realization or belief that they have that no one can hear, and they shout it. And, like, I really felt that way about this book. Like, I needed to write this book, and then I, I have also had a little bit of a, a book hangover after this book.
[00:04:39] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:04:39] Colleen: I have not written anything since, like, I've just needed to, like, recover from it.
[00:04:44] Olivia: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:44] Colleen: And then it was funny, like, it was the worst thing in the world and the best thing in the world when it came out, um, cause it came out right in the middle of all the lockdowns and things, and I was like, I don't even know, I really did yell into the void because I yell, I literally did it right at the time when no one was reading books.
[00:04:59] Colleen: Um, so I guess the short answer of why I felt so compelled to write it was, um, I used to do this workshop, I don't know. I think you can tell if you've read my book, I'm kind of a snarky, like kind of morbidly depressing, pessimistic kind of person.
[00:05:20] Olivia: Very real, yeah.
[00:05:20] Colleen: Some people see it that way, some people are like, you're not really a pessimist, but I really am. Um, and I had to do a workshop for some reason, and I was just feeling very snarky at the time, and I was like, oh, I'm going to do this workshop. Like here's the five mistakes that students make in writing and how they're all our fault.
[00:05:41] Olivia: It was at TC, wasn't it?
[00:05:43] Colleen: I think it was.
[00:05:44] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:05:45] Colleen: That was the first time I think I did it. And it was a standing room only, like the room was jam-packed, and I was like, okay, must not have been any other good workshops going on at the time.
[00:05:56] Olivia: No, this is good.
[00:05:57] Colleen: Like, this is nobody's here for that. So then I repeated that workshop. And I've now repeated it many, many, many, many times, and every single time I, I do it, people are just packed. And I'm like, okay, are we like all just self-punishers? Like, and so I started asking people like, why are you coming? They're like, because I don't think people really talk about the mistakes that teachers make.
[00:05:56] Olivia: So true, yep.
[00:06:20] Colleen: We talk about what they're doing wrong, but we don't talk about like mistakes. Um, and so I was like, you know what, you're right. I'm going to, like, I want to learn more about this. So I started looking into, and you know, some people who are listening right now know that, um, I was the coeditor with, for Not This, But That with Nell Duke.
[00:06:42] Colleen: And I have a long history of being very research-minded.
[00:06:46] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:06:46] Colleen: So the first thing I did was I tried to find research on mistakes and learning. And I was shocked. There just wasn't any, like there was stuff on growth mindset. Um, there was a lot of stuff on like how, um, what to do when kids make mistakes so that, you know, they don't feel bad or something like that.
[00:07:05] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:07:05] Colleen: But there wasn't a whole lot of on what teachers do on how teachers respond, um, on how the structures and systems we do as schools, um, exist. I couldn't find any. So I started reading from other disciplines and other industries, and almost every other industry, you know, like food manufacturing, engineering, the medical industry, farming, all of them have tons of research on mistakes.
[00:07:36] Colleen: And I thought it was like…
[00:07:37] Olivia: It’s almost bizarre.
[00:07:37] Colleen: Yeah! It almost started to feel like there was a, yeah, it felt like intentional, like isn't mistake making all about learning. So I was like, okay. I have to write this book.
[00:07:45] Olivia: Yes.
[00:07:45] Colleen: Like, I thought the book was there, and then when it wasn't, I was like, okay. So that that's how it came to be.
[00:07:51] Olivia: That's perfect. And something, I just had a conversation, um, at our family dinner table around is the difference between mistakes and wrongdoings, because that got me, man, it, it's so brilliant. And I'd love for you to define how you do in the book. What is the difference between a mistake and a wrongdoing?
[00:08:10] Colleen: Um, so, and I, I found that I, I needed to delineate them because I think, as a society, we smushed them together.
[00:08:18] Olivia: I agree.
[00:08:18] Colleen: And I think part of the reason why people have such fear of making mistakes and will do almost anything, including breaking the law, to avoid being like accused of making a mistake. Um, it's almost better to, to do something on purpose wrong and to do it accidentally.
[00:08:38] Colleen: And I think it's because we mix them together. So I see a mistake as you have an intention, and you go to do - it's an action, it's action connected. And you have this intention, and then it goes differently than you were expecting. So it could be a little thing like you intended, um, to turn the dryer on. This literally just happened to me yesterday.
[00:09:03] Colleen: Um, and I went and sat down and folded laundry where I thought the other load was in, and then I went back to go get it after I thought it would be over, and it hadn't been turned on. And, like, that's a mistake. I didn't mean to not turn it on. I probably got distracted, or, you know, I dropped something and just lost my flow, but I forgot, and so that's a mistake.
[00:09:21] Colleen: Um, forgetting to pay a bill, um, misspelling something, mispronouncing someone's names, all of those kinds of things are you meant for this to go this way, and then it went another way.
[00:9:35] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:09:35] Colleen: Intentional wrongdoing is like, you know what you're doing is wrong. You might hope that you don't get caught, but like nobody like accidentally punches someone in the face.
[00:9:45] Olivia: Nope!
[00:09:45] Colleen: Like nobody accidentally embezzles, you know? Like it's, it's, and I think the intentionality is one of the biggest differences. Um, but I think the way we conflate it, we're like, Oh, everybody makes mistakes when somebody embezzles money. That's not a mistake. That's, you knew it was wrong. Um, but overspending your budget, that could be a mistake because you just weren't good at keeping track of those numbers, or you didn't write down a really important bill or something like that.
[00:10:14] Olivia: Yeah, and I think, too, the idea of intent versus impact continues to come up and, and the whole idea of, I'm so tired of hearing people say, well, I didn't mean to, because that, that may constitute a mistake, but that idea of wrongdoing is also if you didn't mean to get caught or, and then I also talked to the kids a lot about, even if you didn't mean to hurt someone's feelings, it doesn't matter because you did the impact is already there. And so you have to own it in some way, shape or form. And I think that's a bigger adult learning conversation to be had as well. Um, I love…
[00:10:54] Colleen: Well, I don't know. I think kids as young as like two.
[00:10:57] Olivia: Oh, yeah.
[00:10:58] Colleen: …can learn impact.
[00:10:59] Olivia: Oh, absolutely.
[00:10:59] Colleen: Like I think impact, I think, I think we focus way too much on the action and, and the person who does the thing and not enough on the person who receives the harm.
00:11:09] Olivia: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:11:10] Colleen: But I appreciate the notion, um, that, you know, sometimes the reason people are frozen and don't do things that they need to do is because their fear of making a mistake overwhelms them.
[00:11:27] Olivia: Well, and we're going to talk fear in a while. But what are the benefits then of understanding why we make mistakes? Why do this work?
[00:11:36] Colleen: Well, I think there's a lot of reasons. One is, um. First and foremost, for me is empathy. I think, you know, and I talk about this in the book. I think we're excellent at spotting everybody else's mistakes. And I think we're really kind of bad at spotting our own. Um, but when we spot other people's mistakes, sometimes we're not able to see why.
[00:11:58] Colleen: And I think knowing the origin of errors, which I talk about Kathryn Schulz's work in the book, um, it really, it made me, I mean, I'm the kind of person when I don't like something I study it. I do really well with information. And knowing like, oh, that was a mistake that was caused by my way I'm influenced by society, or that was a mistake that was because I misinterpreted evidence like we have in Kathryn Schulz's book about being wrong has nine origins of errors.
[00:12:40] Colleen: And, and I think knowing that helps me to see, oh, the reason that my kid left his lunch on the counter is because he believed it was in his backpack. Um, like he, he didn't do it to make my life harder. He, or to make sure he was hungry and came home cranky. He did it because he thought he did it. Um, or the reason somebody mispronounced my name was because they believed they knew how to pronounce it.
[00:13:10] Colleen: Like they had a belief. Um, so it helps me be more empathetic to other people's mistakes. It also helps me to see patterns. Like, and sometimes I go an epochs of my life or like my mistakes that I'm making follow a pattern, and it's useful because if I really can't make a mistake, I should know to look for that thing.
[00:13:31] Colleen: Like, I should not, I should be cautious stepping into that particular situation. So if I know that, like, um, I keep making mistakes, um, around society, like when I see society doing something, I keep making decisions, um, then I'm going to be cautious when I feel like I'm being influenced.
[00:13:54] Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, too, it helps us pause in a way and just be reflective before we're going into situations if we know those patterns. And so I appreciated that. And also the notion of the different kinds of mistakes, um, and the weight that they have for different people. Could you speak to that?
[00:14:17] Colleen: Um, so yeah, Eduardo Briceño talks about that there's four different kinds of mistakes, and he actually was some of the only research I found that even took school and education, um, into account.
[00:14:31] Colleen: It's funny, I ended up having a conversation with him, um, and I was like, you know, I really love this article you wrote. Um, and he was like, you know, it's funny you say that he's like, I'm obsessed with that article, but nobody wants me to come talk about it. And I was like, are you kidding me?
[00:14:44] Olivia: Interesting. Yeah.
[00:14:44] Colleen: It's like the, my favorite thing you've ever written. And he's written some brilliant things. Um, but, uh, he talks about, and he has, it's in the book, the graphic, um, from Mind Works, but he talks about how there's four main kinds of mistakes. Um, the first are sloppy mistakes, and those are the mistakes like my kid leaving his lunch on the counter and forgetting.
[00:15:05] Colleen: They're just like quick. They're very low stakes; nothing really gets terribly hurt, but you also don't learn much from them. Um, but they just happen. It's like my laundry mistake. The second kind of mistake, uh, that he addresses is, is what he calls aha mistakes. And those are mistakes where, you thought you knew a thing, but you didn't actually know the thing, and then all of a sudden you realize as you're making the mistake, oh, shoot, I thought I knew. So, like, you know, for a while on our counter, we had a sugar bowl and a salt bowl, um, and like, I know that sugar and salt look a lot alike, everybody does, but it wasn't until I put salt in my coffee that I was like, Oh no, they really look alike, and maybe I should put them in bowls that look very different.
[00:15:57] Olivia: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:15:57] Colleen: Why are they both in the same kind of white bowl? Um, So, you know, that's an aha mistake. You learn more, you learn a lot, but again, low stakes. I mean, so I had a bad cup of coffee, you know, that's not a big deal. Then, he talks about stretch mistakes. And those are the mistakes that teachers get all excited about.
[00:16:14] Colleen: Those are the ones coaches get all excited about. All the inspirational speeches are out there. That people, those are, the like holy grail of mistakes. Those are the ones we want to make. Those are the ones where you're doing something with an outside of your realm of comfort. You know you're taking a risk, and you mess up, but you learn so much it's totally worth it.
[00:16:37] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:16:37] Colleen: Like, you know, the first time you go off a high dive, the first time you ride a bike, the first, like all these like things that you do, um, that you're like, Oh, that really stunk to make that mistake. But also, I can't, I couldn't get to that next location without having done that thing.
[00:16:57] Colleen: The mistake that I really, and, and, you know, again, Briceño discusses this. Um, but the one that I think about all the time and are really common in teaching is, uh. What he calls high-stakes mistakes. And those are mistakes that you actually don't learn much from, but the damage that we cause when we make them is outsized. It's really bad. And you want to avoid them. And, and in the book, I talk about like zero-fail missions is what the military calls them.
[00:17:31] Olivia: Yeah. It’s brilliant.
[00:17:31] Colleen: You literally cannot make this mistake. And so in teaching, that's things like, you know, you can't miss signs that a child is depressed. You can't, um, let a kid leave your classroom not being able to read, you, you know, these, these things that we forget, like we really do hold huge life influence in, in our hands when it comes to kids.
[00:17:56] Colleen: And, um. And when we make those mistakes, and I don't know a teacher who hasn't made the equivalent of a high-stakes mistake. Um, we don't learn much from them. Like we, it's a double bad, like we hurt somebody. And there's nothing to gain from it.
[00:18:15] Olivia: Well, and I kept thinking, too, that was fascinating to me. And when the two, the stretch and the high stakes, I was also thinking about zones of development when it comes to learning, um, and making the connection, the stretch mistakes felt like ZPD, zone of proximal, where it's just beyond your reach of comfort, but you're still within the realm of, okay, I can do this and try. Take that risk.
[00:18:41] Olivia: Where the frustrational zone is, you're shutting down because it's so far. And so the high stakes, it's, it's shutting everything down in that way. But I started to think to myself, like, how are the next steps we offer students within that stretch zone? And we are ensuring they're not high stakes where they're going to shut down.
[00:19:03] Olivia: And you speaking to depression or as adults. We have to consider the mistakes we make as well. Um, comparing to feedback, but I kept thinking about zones of development. Um, so just interesting. And then I also think too about punishment, and I'm in a lot of schools and how adults yield or wield actually their power. Um, so I'd love for you to speak to Restorative Justice, and your definition on page 18 is really helpful, I think, to spark, um, this segue. “Restorative justice is a conversation between those who have been violated and those who have done the violation focusing on reconciliation and rehabilitation instead of punishment.”
[00:19:51] Olivia: So why should we consider it when we're owning making a mistake or the impact after making a mistake?
[00:20:00] Colleen: Well, I guess some of it has to do with, like, what's the kind of society that we want to live in. Like, I don't know who said it, but somebody was like, do you want to be right? Or do you want to be happy?
[00:20:14] Colleen: And like, I do think that there's a way where, when it comes to punishment, the goal is to feel right. And it's not necessarily what's going to help the most people. I mean, very few people are thrilled with the notion of, um, punitive justice, like even victims of horrific crimes. They generally are not really comforted by the punishment that happens because no matter what, the punishment isn't going to be equal to whatever occurs.
[00:20:51] Colleen: Um, and so I think again, it shifts the gaze, um, from looking at the misstep or the mistake or the intentional wrongdoing and instead focusing on the impact. And I actually think when we focus on if, you know, like, I think of my younger son, like, he sometimes when he has time to kill, he'll make, like, a really big construction in the living room.
[00:21:20] Colleen: Um, but when he doesn't, he won't because he knows that he's going to have to clean up more mess or less mess. And when he has time - and I think when you engage in restorative justice, it does encourage people to really focus on the impact of their decisions. It also centers the victim, for lack of a better word, victim isn't exactly the right word because sometimes it's more than one person involved, and it's sort of collaborative, um, but it does focus on the harm.
[00:21:52] Colleen: Um, and it really connects to, like the, some of the most shocking research that I found when I was reading this is like, what keeps you from making another mistake? And it wasn't what I thought, um, like I will admit that when I had my own classroom, and my students did something messed up I used to have them sit and reflect and write a letter and like journal and like really focus on the mistake that they made. And what research tells us is that actually what you're doing there is not going to keep them from repeating the mistake. It's actually gonna make them more likely to repeat it.
[00:22:31] Olivia: Really? That’s interesting.
[00:22:32] Colleen: Yes!
[00:22:33] Olivia: That’s crazy! Yeah!
[00:22:34] Colleen: It's awful. Um, but if you want somebody to not repeat a mistake, focus on what you'll do next time. So focus on repairing the harm and then focus on what you'll do next time. So, like, I don't know, I'm running through the house, and I break a vase then. Yes, I should clean it up. Yes, I should pay for it if it doesn't belong to me if I can.
[00:22:55] Colleen: And also, I should think about maybe not running through the house or maybe not putting the vase on the end of the table, as opposed to sitting and reflecting on my running through the house and how sad that Olivia must be now that I broke her vase, you know, like that, um, actually will make me more likely to repeat it.
[00:23:14] Colleen: So, I think that restorative justice, um, while I don't think it was necessarily built on that, um, research, I think it's interesting when, when there's parallel kinds of tracks. And having kids and adults, I mean, it comes from the adult world, focus on healing, um, It's just a win-win for everybody. I do know that some people think it's letting people off easy and, you know, how will you learn, but what we do know is that you actually don't learn from punishment.
[00:23:45] Colleen: All that happens when you're punished is you aim to avoid the punishment. You don't realize, like, you don't necessarily think about how to repair the harm or to not do it again. You're just like, oh, I'll get better at hiding. I'll get better at lying. I'll get better at whatever.
[00:24:01] Olivia: Well, and I think if we can do anything to make better humans in our classrooms, it's to model as adults. And that's what the book provides so many opportunities to be self-reflective as grownups working with students, so we can model taking these risks. Um, and. I love the idea of shifting instead of that self-reflection of, you know, what I did - instead, what could I do differently? Um, and that helps almost that rehearsal of, like thinking through here are some other ways this could have played out.
[00:24:33] Olivia: So, I appreciate that. And then I was laughing to myself when I jumped into the chapter on teacher, savior, martyr archetype. Because, and then the movies you highlight, I'm like, oh my God, she's right! And so, like Miss Honey, all these teachers and you know, we, we become teachers or educators for whatever reason we choose, but you've got to speak to this archetype and then the lack of prioritized self-care alongside.
[00:25:04] Olivia: Please share with listeners. What do you mean teacher, savior, martyr archetype?
[00:25:10] Colleen: Well, I mean, I think, you know, one of the things I think all of us, um, if we’re in American society and turn on the television or watch movies is we've been inundated with teacher archetype as savior and also suffering. You know, we rarely see a well-rounded, healthy teacher who drives a decent car, not even a nice car, just a decent car, and wears decent clothes and like goes on a vacation.
[00:25:40] Colleen: Like, all the stories are like the sad, lonely teacher eating like lunch out of a tin can, like driving there, like 1970s Pinto. Um, and it just. And like the Miss Honey example, like she lives in a, you know, like a little hut, like she doesn't even own her own home. Um, but she's so dedicated to the children.
[00:26:03] Colleen: Um, and like, I think part of that is a societal response to how badly we, we treat teachers. Um, because teachers, um, at least in the United States, not everywhere, but in the United States, um, are it was always the case that we don't get the kind of respect that really we should deserve, but I think it's gotten much worse lately.
[00:26:28] Olivia: I agree.
[00:26:28] Colleen: And so, rather than looking at this as an opportunity for us to increase respect instead, we sort of do a little bit of brainwashing, um, or gaslighting that, like you’re, you're less important than the children that you serve. And so you need to give it your all. You need to leave it on the field. You're like a kind of missionary. Um, and I think a lot of us are like in the giving profession and, and so we want to do that.
[00:27:02] Colleen: We want to care. We want to make a difference. We want to help children, or we're in, you know, we just are very for school. Um, but the, the rub is, and the sad part is, is that all that giving up of ourselves ends up costing the kids.
[00:27:19] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:27:19] Colleen: It's not just costing us. And like, I think, listen, it just costing us would be fine. Um, and we should stop that right now. But I think the part that, like, for me, like people would say, um, to me all the time, you need to rest, you need to sleep, you need to eat well. There was nothing structurally that was making that possible.
[00:27:41] Olivia: Right. Right.
[00:27:42] Colleen: And so then I would be like, why don't I rest? And like ignoring the fact that it was physically impossible for me to do all the things I needed to do for my job and rest. Um, and then I realized - and I talk about this in the book that whenever I am depleted, that is when I make the most mistakes and cause the most harm.
[00:28:05] Olivia: Yes.
[00:28:05] Colleen: Like everywhere in my life in my, you know, as a parent, as a friend, as a as a daughter, as a sister, as a teacher, and I have to like, look at myself like this mythology of like, leaving it all in the field when you leave it on the field, you mess everything up.
[00:28:21] Olivia: It’s so true. And that self-care checklist, come on, I went through, I, I've read it now five times, and I didn't do horribly, which I was proud of because I'm focusing a lot on sleep these days, making sure I go to bed. I know my wake up time. Um, and so then I count backwards hours. But there is so much that on that checklist I read with my teenager, with my tween, with my husband, I'm sharing with all of my friends because again, the resources in this book are not just for the educational realm.
[00:28:52] Olivia: It's for all humans, I would say to take a peek. Um, but the idea of the more depleted we are. It's, it just takes all of the power and effectiveness to make rational, amazing choices. And that martyr archetype is fascinating to me because so many teachers are, I think it's beyond burnout at this point, it's the demoralization, um, that I think is actually causing us to feel even more depletion than average. So it's interesting.
[00:29:26] Colleen: And it shouldn't be that we, and it should, we should just care about ourselves because we care about ourselves. Right? But I think for me, that was really hard to do because I was raised to be a martyr.
[00:29:35] Colleen: Like that was the family I was raised in. The culture I was raised in. But then I, and I, so I just want to say we should just do that just to do that. But for me, I realized that I was causing more harm than good and was really harming the people that I was trying to serve by grinding myself into a pulp. Like it was really not, um, you know, I, I have educator friends who've had some serious health issues, um, that would have been better if they had had self-care and then like, you know, that they're not doing, and I'm not blaming them.
[00:30:12] Colleen: I'm, I think the system is something that is in place for a reason, but I do think one really compelling reason that kind of got me out of the, like, martyr phase was I I really am actually causing harm. It's not even like put your mask on yourself before you. I mean, I'm like, literally snapping at children and making mistakes in my teaching and not explaining things thoroughly, and they're not getting what they need from me because I've decided I need to like, make this little thingy or like, um, stay up until 2am in the morning, writing comments.
[00:30:52] Olivia: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:52] Colleen: And like, it's at the end, I'm like, and then I get bitter with them when they're not grateful for the sacrifice they did not ask me for.
[00:31:02] Olivia: Yes! Yes!
[00:31:03] Colleen: So yeah, it's sometimes we have to add some, you know, I, I don't care why you do it, but I do think that taking care of yourself is, is super important.
[00:31:14] Olivia: Yeah, I'm with you. And I also found the whole idea of the common cognitive error fascinating, um, and its impact on decision making.
[00:31:23] Olivia: So, on page 58, this resonated, um, “Just because some errors happen and everything is still fine, does not mean that all levels of errors are acceptable.” This is so the high-stakes realm of what you were alluding to before – “…deciding what's an acceptable level of air is an essential part of our job as teachers. What can we decide is no big deal.”
[00:31:46] Olivia: And you've already spoken to like the noticing depression, calling it out and helping, um, not being able to have a child leave our room without being able to read. So, I just, I think that you have two different chapters on common cognitive error that I think are really important, um, for listeners to know about.
[00:32:10] Olivia: Um, and shifting from that, holy amygdala Batman! Because I know that amygdala is a very important part of our life. Uh, but I am just, I paused, I've reread it's, there's page 45 and 22 that you speak to that part of our brain. And I thought, oh my God, it's that fight or flight. So, can you please share with listeners? Why is it such an important part of the brain when it comes to fear and making mistakes?
[00:32:40] Colleen: Yeah, um, I actually, uh, got really obsessed with that because, um, an author who's, who actually just had a book come out, um, that I edited, uh, Arlène (Elizabeth) Casimir. She taught me a lot about, um, about trauma and fear, um, and it was in talking with her, I started to like, explore the idea that when you like experience trauma, you can't learn.
[00:33:13] Colleen: But then I started to like really dig into the brain science. And so basically, for people who are listening, like, what is the amygdala? Um, it's this little part of your, it's tiny little thing. It's like a little reptilian old. It's one of the oldest parts of our brain in terms of evolution. Um. And it usually just kind of sits around doing nothing, but if it gets triggered, it's the part of your brain that freaks out, gets afraid.
[00:33:40] Colleen: And when it gets triggered, it sends like, I kind of, you know, I think of like circuit breakers in your home or your apartment building where there's just like all the switches and you just like, you see dramatically in movies, there's just like a big thwong switch, and they turn everything off.
[00:33:55] Olivia: Yes.
[00:33:55] Colleen: That's what the amygdala does. It just like turns everything else off in your brain. So that you can focus on living. So that you can focus on surviving. And so it immediately turns into fight, flight, um, and you're, you are incapable. You're biologically incapable of learning when the amygdala has been switched on.
[00:34:21] Colleen: So, like, I've been in schools, I mean, as, as a parent, I found myself doing this, like, where, like, if you, if you scare a kid, um, not on purpose. You know, like I've, I've scared my kid just by, like walking into a room they weren't expecting me to be in. But like you, they cannot learn for a minute. Like their, their amygdala is so triggered that it's not possible. So imagine like, you know, I often think of like when schools are in lockdown drills, um, are we doing learning that day?
[00:34:56] Colleen: Because I don't think so. I mean, you might be doing lessons, but like a lot of kids are going to be triggered and be incapable of learning information. Or, like parents will say to me like, oh my God, how many times have I yelled at him to like pick up his room? I'm like, well, he's not learning it because you yell every time you ask.
[00:35:17] Colleen: And like to you, it makes sense because you feel like you're repeating it, but you're not realizing that when somebody is yelled at. Their amygdala is triggered.
[00:35:25] Colleen: When somebody feels threatened for any reason, um, you can't, you can't learn new information. And so it does, you know, in Universal Design for Learning, they talk about the effective network, and they talk about, um, one of the big things you have to do is you students need to feel a sense of safety.
[00:35:45] Olivia: Yes.
[00:35:45] Colleen: And when I go, when I talk about UDL with schools, like, they're always like, okay, but like, that's why. Scientifically, it's accurate. You, you, you can't learn if you're triggered in terms of your fear.
[00:35:59] Olivia: No,. In your words, exactly, uh, page 22, “If we're, if, if we're yelling or being yelled at, we're not thinking instead of the amygdala shuts down conscious thought so that our body can focus on survival by either fighting, fleeing, or freezing.”
[00:36:17] Olivia: So when I read those words, I read them twice. I read them out loud to my family, because I said like the yelling, it is totally ineffective, not only showing a loss of our own control, but, um, I think for everyone out there hearing that you are not thinking and your conscious thought is shut down, that is bananas to me, when I read that, that just got me.
[00:36:43] Colleen: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:43] Olivia: Um, and just the implications. And then I have to share the story with you. I was so excited to work with a school district last week. I was supporting all of their special education and RtI educators, as well as principals and assistant sup was there. And I looked at your book, and I thought, oh my gosh - Thomasson, Thomasson, Thomasson.
[00:37:11] Olivia: And I copied an excerpt from that chapter for them because listeners may not know what a Thomasson is, but now everyone in that school district is walking around saying, what are our Thomassons? And what I ended up doing is, once I had them read the excerpt, and they were like, oh my gosh, never noticed that before in society!
[00:37:31] Olivia: Um, I'll have you speak to what a Thomasson is. Then, the brilliant next step, we listed all of the Thomassons that we have in education in their realm right now. And we started a fresh column that said, instead we can, and then we started a column after that, that said research supports. So we have this three-tiered system of, yeah, we can name the Thomassons name issues we're seeing.
[00:38:01] Olivia: Um, and then here's what we could do differently, and here's research that's going to have our back. So, listeners, I know you're dying to know what the heck is a Thomasson. Tell us, Colleen.
[00:38:12] Colleen: Oh, you know, it's a funny thing. Like, um, people who know my work now, I just, I have sort of like a decoupage mind. So I often like pick things from other disciplines and kind of see how they fit in education.
[00:38:24] Olivia: It’s brilliant.
[00:38:24] Colleen: And this is like, sort of a classic example. Um, but there is an artist-architect, um, actually passed away recently, but, um, for many years, he wrote a book called Hyperart. Um, he's a Japanese artist.
[00:38:37] Colleen: Um, Akasegawa Genpei. And he talks; he tells the story in his book about this baseball player. His name is Thomasson, who was hired to play for the Tokyo Dodgers, and he got a big, big contract and he started playing, and he got like, well, he started, um, doing practices and he got hurt, and they had to fulfill his contract.
[00:39:03] Colleen: So they did baseball cards with him, and he got to, um, go to all the games, and he was like, he did meet and greets, but he never played. And so, um, the term Thomasson, uh, that is discussed in, in Hyper Art is all about this notion of how an architecture there's the equivalent of that baseball player where you'll sometimes see these structures that are useless.
[00:39:34] Colleen: There's no real purpose to them, but they're also maintained. Like, sometimes you'll see in a building, um, like I see this in New York City all the time where like, one building got knocked off, and you'll still see some like rebar, some wiring kind of hanging out, but it's not being maintained. It's useless, but it's not maintained.
[00:39:52] Colleen: A Thomasson has to have both. It has to be useless and maintained. So, it has any use at all. Like if there's like a, you know, a bridge that's a little silly, but people can use it. It's also not a Thomasson. Um, and so I started thinking about how, you know, I see them all over the place in New York City. So in the book, I have some pictures of them.
[00:40:10] Olivia: You do.
[00:40:10] Colleen: There's one not far from where I live, where there's like a, a window that's all bricked up. And like, they put like a flower box out on the window ledge, but there's no window there. Um, and I think in school, we have the equivalent of those Thomassons where we make these structures, um, or those structures were already in place when we got to school and or in our classroom; it just sounded like a good idea.
[00:40:36] Colleen: And they don't really do anything, and sometimes they are actually harmful, but rather than getting rid of them, we, like, double down on them. We make sure that they are extra focused on and kept So, like, um, you know, I think about, um. You know, I did this in my classroom. I used to make graphic organizers, and I would introduce them at the beginning of different writing projects.
[00:41:04] Colleen: And then I would insist that the kids use them. And then I would then keep running off the same graphic organizer, and then I would get annoyed that the kids were using them, But rather than go, maybe I should investigate why they're not using them. I'd be like, you need to use a graphic organizer, even though I don't think I really thought about why some would need them or, or some not.
[00:41:28] Colleen: Or like, in the book, I talk about De’Andre Arnold and how he wasn't allowed to walk at graduation because of his hair. Um, he wore a black natural hairstyle and, um, his school just wouldn't let him walk. And when it was brought to the school's attention, how this is a a racist and harmful policy, rather than them go, you know what? You're right.
[00:41:53] Colleen: When we came up with this policy, we were in a different mindset. We understand now that this is causing harm, you know, let's undo it. They doubled down on it and, um, really like underlined the whole thing. And, and like, he ended up leaving the school and I mean, it led to some great legislation in other places, but like, I think schools, like we'll do things like create homework policies and say, if kids don't do their homework, they'll lose recess or they'll not be able to be in sports or they'll have detention.
[00:42:26] Colleen: Um, and then when they consistently see the same students, not doing homework, students who, um, have learning disabilities, students who come from economic poverty, um, and they see it's the same kids over and over again,
[00:42:40] Colleen: Rather than investigating that and seeing, like, can we change the homework policy?
[00:42:45] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:42:45] Colleen: Can we change the, the response to it? They up the policy, um, or they make big announcements, or they make a rally and do prizes for those who finish it. Um, and it's just, I think we have a lot of those in school where it's like we make a mistake, and it's so hard for us to back down from it that we then make it worse, not intentionally, but like that it ends up, um, be much worse than it was in the first place.
[00:43:17] Olivia: Well, the things that came up with the group I was with last week, labeling was top on their list. Labeling kids, um, tracking students, uh, homework was another ring dinger. Um, and the one that we ended on that was like, um, yeah, especially because this time of year test prep, like, come on, man, it's this culture of test prep.
[00:43:41] Olivia: We print out and have the kids hopefully at this point, not be tortured by test prep for months on end. Most school districts have dialed way back from that. But even, you know, what is the purpose of test prep, and how can we offer opportunities year-long. But the labeling really, that was a wonderful conversation to have.
[00:44:01] Olivia: Like, what does it mean to label students honors even versus, uh, support class or “S” class? Like we are putting labels on students from really first grade when they're originally assessed. And then a lot of schools, smaller school districts, the fear for me is that those kids are handcuffed to that label for years on end.
[00:44:27] Olivia: So if RtI is not of the mindset of releasing or exiting kids, every marking period, then that label is stuck forever. So, I just, the idea of the Thomasson was absolutely - it rocked my world. Fascinating. And it's super helpful for professional learning for schools to think of their own Thomassons that are maintained and yet useless.
[00:44:52] Colleen: Oh, a hundred percent. And like, I mean, I think part of it is us just understanding that we're all unknowingly doing these things all the time.
[00:45:01] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:45:01] Colleen: And that when we see something not working. Instead of rushing to fix it, that we should instead do a little bit of deep diving, understanding that all of us are making cognitive errors all the time.
[00:45:16] Colleen: Um, yeah, there's some great, um, there's some great research on the disability thing called disability spread, um, and how it can become like a slice of identity and how it ends up being your full identity. And I think, I think the exploration of Thomassons would be fantastic work for schools to, to uncover.
[00:45:35] Olivia: It was brilliant. I'll have to send you, um, just the feedback, uh, around Thomasson's because that was by far, it was really powerful. Um, so I also love, love, love, um, a couple of pieces on page 83 and 99, um, page 83, you say, “The best teachers I've had were ones who could hold belief and doubt together.” Um, and then that same chapter, “The space we hold is the space students grow into.”
[00:46:02] Olivia: So I'd love for listeners to know more about that - the belief and doubt balance. Um, and then how do we create spaces for students to grow into to reach their full potential?
[00:46:15] Colleen: Well, the belief and doubt balance, I think that was something I ended up having a huge discussion with my editor, um, Margaret LaRaia, um, about is that like when you, the very best teachers are the teachers who aren't like sure-footed, like stand and deliver folks.
[00:46:39] Colleen: They, they usually are this sort of, um, mix in between. Like, I think of one of my best teachers ever, Ted Kopacky, in high school. And he would, he would often like, say, how do you know, you know? And then we would be like, what? And our little high school brains would explode.
[00:46:57] Colleen: Um, but he's like, I don't even know if I know, we were like, what? Like, um, and like, I do think like, I, he was what, what Gloria Ladson-Billings would call a warm demander. Like he had high expectations for us, um, and he also had doubt that he knew everything about me or everything about the subject, but he really also believed in us and that we could do things.
[00:47:24] Colleen: Um, and so I think it's being comfortable and your discomfort is, is what makes, you know, like all of us have had the experience of having a teacher, I hope anyway, that, like, you know, you ask them a question, they go, I don't know. They're like, just so excited about not knowing, um, what a, what a model.
[00:47:47] Colleen: Um, and I do think it sort of encompasses what, um, Mariame Kaba says that hope is a discipline. Like, I do think that, um, as a teacher, hope isn't something that falls from the sky. Hope is something you have to actively work for. You have to think about. And I do think that juxtaposition between, um, doubt and belief is where hope lives.
[00:48:15] Colleen: Um, and I think the, the second part that you were asking about the space, like I talk about this in the book about goldfish, um, and how disturbed I was.
[00:48:24] Olivia: I know!
[00:48:24] Colleen: Oh, I don't know if I should say anything about it or leave it to the readers to, to, to find out about goldfish. But, um, you know, when I, when I read, I had, I had some really giant goldfish, and when they eventually died, I just thought, and they lived a long time, but I was like, now I look back, and I think, oh gosh, their bowl wasn't, it wasn't a bowl, it was huge tank, but it wasn't big enough. It's never big enough.
[00:48:50] Colleen: Um, this idea of the space we hold as the space students grow into. A lot of people have written about it. Um, Nilofer Merchant writes about how, you know, we, we can only, our expectations are our students' ceilings and that you, you can only get as big as the people around you think you are.
[00:49:13] Colleen: And so when, when we think about our students, if we don't think highly of them, they're not going to do that well. And there's all kinds of randomized controlled trials of this where like, you know, they mess with people and like teachers are told one thing about a kid and then another teacher's told another thing about the kid and the teacher who believes in the kid, the kid does better on an assessment than the teacher who doesn't believe in the kid.
[00:49:42] Colleen: So, we know it's true. And yet we find ourselves doing like what you were saying, like the “S” student or the gifted and talented, like we end up labeling kids. Um, and, and limiting them and, and affecting how, how big or how little. And yet we know in our lives that like, there are people who we can't wait to cook for because they believe everything we make is going to be delicious.
[00:50:10] Colleen: Like, we can't wait to like sit down and tell stories to, because we know they've told us that they love our stories. Or like, there's just, we want to be that person for our kids that they, they see like the expectation in our eyes that they're going to be great.
[00:50:32] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:50:32] Colleen: And that we're not going to even try to limit them because we just have such incredible expectations for them.
[00:50:39] Olivia: I keep, this is just, it's grabbing at my heart. It keeps making me think of, um, AJ Crabill. I interviewed him Season 2, Episode 30. And, um, it was around school boards that adults school boards won't get better unless adults change their behavior. Um, or student behaviors won't change unless adult behaviors change.
[00:50:58] Olivia: And something he shared was that his most inspirational educator was the teacher that believed in him because he was. Really going through a hard time as a high school student. He was homeless. And there was one teacher that advocated for him when everyone else wanted him suspended and was sick of dealing with his behaviors.
[00:51:21] Olivia: And he ended up meeting with her years later, and she followed his whole journey as an educator. And she told him that there was a cohort at the high school of teachers. that were conspiring for good behind his back to deflect the different, the other teachers that did not believe in him. Um, and so that idea of conspiring for good, it was pretty beautiful. And if we don't believe in kids, then who else is going, it's just scary to me. Um, so I love that.
[00:51:58] Colleen: Yeah, I think, I do think that, like, one of the things that my, my friend, um, Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul said that I, that reminds me of is like, she once said to me, like, cause I said, we were talking about some situation and I was like, oh, I've never heard that person say that hateful thing.
[00:52:15] Colleen: And, but I'm hearing tell that they say this hateful thing all the time. And she said, well, they would never say it in front of you because you're the kind of person people know not to say this stuff in front of you. And it made me realize she's like, you should pay as much attention to what people feel safe saying in front of you as to what they're not saying.
[00:52:36] Colleen: Um, and that made me think about, like, just teachers in general, like people know not to talk badly about kids in front of me. Like all of a sudden, I'm like A Fish Called Wanda. Like, don't call me stupid. Like I become like an animal, you know, and like, I think that's good.
[00:53:27] Olivia: Yeah!
[00:52:54] Colleen: And like, I think that like kids should know. And I think that, that we should, we should aim to be the kind of person that kids know we have their back and our families know we have their back that if somebody is talking smack about you, I am going to have words with them. And also to the point where we don't hear it anymore because we're changing the culture.
[00:53:17] Olivia: Yeah!
[00:53:17] Colleen: Like it's no longer - people are gonna change their conversation when we walk into a room, um, because I think, I think that's, that's critical.
[00:53:26] Olivia: I do too. And I, I've just had this conversation last week. I'm pushing hard for learning labs and this particular school district for next year. And it's really scary for these adults to put themselves out there to plan labs and take risks.
[00:53:42] Olivia: And I keep saying it is not about being an expert. It's about taking a risk, naming the risk, and taking it publicly. We, we all have your back.
[00:53:17] Colleen: Mm-hmm.
[00:53:51] Olivia: And so to help propel it forward. I am facilitating labs for a solid week this coming May because I've got to put myself out there and take the risks publicly.
[00:54:04] Olivia: And I said to them, I don't want one person waiting for me to fail and taking notes. She didn't do this. She didn't do this. I need you all to have my back when I'm trying this, um, and, and support and lift me up. Um, because it's scary to have what people are seeing and hearing clearly documented.
[00:54:23] Olivia: And then having them try to find research to align with it. It's a lot. Um, right? But I, I just, I think it's important that listeners know, before we jump into a call to action, how to get in touch with you. Your website is gorgeous. So, I will make sure to put that in the show notes. Um, and you've written so many other beautiful professional books that we didn't speak to and highlight today.
[00:54:48] Olivia: Um, but I know they're also on your website. So, how is it best for folks to get in touch with you?
[00:54:55] Colleen: Um, I think probably my website has both my email and a little contact link, so you can go on there. Um, I know the socials are a little bit tricky right now, like, which one's going to be alive and which one's not.
[00:55:11] Colleen: But, um, currently, I'm on LinkedIn, um, Twitter, and, uh, Instagram. I'm trying to get, I'm trying to do a little bit more of, of all of it. Um, and then, um, you know, I, I think probably the best places is my website cause I try to post stuff. So if a new social media platform comes up, that's a, that's a great place. But, um, you know, people should feel free to write me with questions.
[00:55:40] Colleen: I get really fun questions sometimes from people. I've actually thought maybe I want to do like a little column of some sort of my website of, like, asking questions because I have such random background knowledge on stuff. Um, so definitely feel free to do that. And like, if, if you want me to come to your school or district or, um, organization, um, I would love to. So, so reach out.
[00:56:03] Olivia: That's awesome. And, um, I think it's important for listeners to hear from you, you know, what is our call to action in your mind moving forward?
[00:56:13] Colleen: Oh gosh. Um, well, I think the biggest thing to consider is what we can do to proactively encourage mistake-making. Like I think, um, I talk about this in the book that you know, Maxine Greene says we can't promise safe spaces; we can only promise spaces where we're encouraging risks. And I think that, um, creating a mistake-welcoming culture means that we're getting rid of systems that will get in the way of mistake-making. We're studying our Thomassons. We're looking at things like grading systems and the way we talk to kids, and we're looking at our our systems of discipline, our tone of voice. You know, we're looking at, are we modeling for kids what it looks like to publicly like, um, I think I talked about this in the book.
[00:57:09] Colleen: One of my favorite books for professional development that wasn't written for teachers is, um, The Millionaire’s Magician. Did I write about this in this book, or was that Unstoppable? I think it
[00:57:17] Olivia: I think it was unstoppable. Yeah. I don't remember.
[00:57:20] Colleen: But yeah, in that book, um, which is the, um, Which is How to Win the Crowd.
[00:57:24] Colleen: It's written about a magician about magic, which is going to sound like a real wild, but it's actually my favorite book about staff development. He talks about how many magicians make a mistake in the first couple of minutes of a show on purpose so that the crowd wants them to do well, you start to root for them.
[00:57:45] Colleen: And I feel like, as teachers, we lose sight of that, and we strive for perfection. That's one never possible. Two is not modeling for kids, the kind of learner we want them to be. Um, and three, we don't get a chance to model what to do when you make a mistake. Um, so I had a really great conversation with the author, um, James Howe about like, how, how few models we have, at least in American society, of what to do when you make a mistake, like, like talking it through how to get feedback.
[00:58:18] Colleen: And he was like, one of the things I want to get better at as an author is talking about that journey, that mistake journey and, and how do you graciously respond and how do you also give grace to other people, um, who are making mistakes? So, I would say that that's the biggest part for me is the, the idea of grace and, and giving modeling for kids what grace looks like and giving them an opportunity to give us grace when we make mistakes.
[00:58:50] Olivia: I love it. And Colleen, it's been such a privilege to be able to talk with you face-to-face about this book that has rocked my world. And I am screaming about it from the mountaintops. I want everyone to read it.
[00:59:03] Olivia: I want everyone - I care if people read it.
[00:59:06] Colleen: Yeah!
[00:59:06] Olivia: So there, um, and I, you know, you start off the epilogue with a book with this quote, “It's what we do next that matters.” And I couldn't agree more, you know, take that baby step, take the risk, and circle up with people that have your back because that's what this is about.
[00:59:23] Colleen: Yes!
[00:59:23] Olivia: Right. Um, so, thank you for you, what you do for getting this book there out there in the world. And I'm just, I'm grateful for you.
[00:59:33] Colleen: Thank you. And thanks for giving me a chance to, to talk about this book I wrote in a vacuum, let out in a vacuum, and I haven't gotten a chance nearly to talk enough about. And I'm excited for, like, the next phase to get, to have conversations with people about it.
[00:59:47] Olivia: Me too.
[00:59:47] Colleen: So thank you for that.
[00:59:48] Olivia: Absolutely. Take care.
[00:59:50] Colleen: Thanks.
[00:59:52] Olivia: Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my guest, Colleen Cruz. Also, a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background.
[01:00:08] Olivia: I would love for you to share the podcast far and wide. Leave a review, subscribe on YouTube, and follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you'd like to become a Schoolutions sponsor or share episode ideas, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast, or connect via email at @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.