Schoolutions: Curious Educators. Evidence-Based Strategies. Classrooms Where Every Child Thrives.

S3 E7: Patterns of Power: Authentic Grammar Instruction in High School with Holly Durham & Travis Leech

• Olivia Wahl • Season 3 • Episode 7

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This conversation with Patterns of Power grammar extraordinaires Holly Durham and Travis Leech will leave you ready to dive into authentic grammar instruction! Let go of ineffective worksheets and skill-and-drill grammar instruction as Holly and Travis describe the Patterns of Power Process with a focus on grades 9-12.   They explain why traditional grammar instruction focuses too often on rules and what’s right or wrong instead of a true understanding of usage. In Kylene Beers’s words, “...master teachers, Jeff, Travis, and Holly, make things such as colons and commas, apostrophes and appositives, phrases and fragments, become more than things to be learned. Instead, they were turning conventions of language into conversations I wanted to have with kids.”

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#solutionsfromschoolutions #schoolutionsinspires #schoolutionspodcast #patternsofpower #grammarinstruction #authenticgrammarinstruction #grammarusageoverrules #POPteacher #teachersfollowteachers #education #student #school 

When teachers, coaches, administrators, and families grow together, they create schools where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged, supported, and ready to thrive.

Schoolutions – S3 E7: Patterns of Power: Authentic Grammar Instruction in High School with Holly Durham and Travis Leech

 

[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, excited to welcome my guests today, Holly Durham and Travis Leech. Holly has spent the last 30 years serving students, teachers, and administrators.

[00:00:25] Olivia: She has assumed numerous roles throughout her career, and with this variety of roles, Holly has a deep knowledge of literacy, as well as leadership, federal and state policy, accountability, and coaching for both teachers and administrators. Holly is passionate about the teaching and learning of patterns that allow students to become better readers and writers, teaching grammar in a way that sticks and builds from where students are, not where we hope they will be.

[00:00:57] Olivia: Travis has spent 15 years in classrooms as a middle school teacher and coach, gifted and talented specialist, and now as a curriculum designer and instructional coach. He began his work with invitational grammar practices and found his students thrived in a classroom filled with conversation, inquiry, and celebration.

[00:01:17] Olivia: Travis enjoys traveling to school districts and conferences to share his love for empowering young readers and writers and the educators who support them on their literacy journeys. It is my honor to welcome you both, Holly and Travis, as guests on Schoolutions. Thank you for being here. 

[00:01:34] Travis: Whoop! Whoop! 

[00:01:34] Holly: Thank you.

[00:03:28] Travis: Glad to be here.

[00:01:36] Olivia: So excited.

[00:01:37] Holly: Yeah, we're excited.

[00:01:38] Olivia: I'm excited to talk grammar. I have your book right next to me, Patterns of Power, and the most exciting thing for me is this is grades 9-12. I have a high schooler in my house and I know this is a big conversation. Um, before we jump into it though, I love to know from my guests about inspiring educators from your lives. So, Holly, will you kick us off? 

[00:02:01] Holly: Of course. So, I think probably one of my most inspiring, one of the most inspiring, uh, teachers that I had was in high school. And so I had a teacher that really supported my writing, uh, and I did a lot of creative writing, and I wrote a lot for him.

[00:02:17] Holly: His name was Mr. VanAmburg. I have no idea where he is, but he had a great name. Uh, and he also was my, my theater director, but I did a lot of writing and creative writing. And one of the things he would always tell me is just get it all out, get it all out, just get all of it out, and then pull the kernels from that writing.

[00:02:37] Holly: And, and that's, that's what really is there. And so, of course, being in high school in the seventies, I mean, in the eighties and elementary and middle through the seventies as well. Uh, you know, creative writing and that sort of writing was not super popular. Uh, so I think just having that experience as a high schooler and having someone really just in a very authentic way, say, look at what other authors do, let it all flow out of you, and we will find the goodness and, and not just be cautious before you even begin.

[00:03:11] Holly: I think that that was very impactful. And I've always, always brought that with me, especially, uh, through college and as a teacher, and even now, I mean, we just wrote something, right? So…

[00:03:22] Olivia: …this is true. 

[00:03:23] Holly: It was very impactful to me. 

[00:03:24] Olivia: Yeah. Fabulous. Travis, how about you? 

[00:03:28] Travis: Uh, for me as a, as a beginning teacher, someone who really impacted me was a mentor teacher of mine who kind of took me under his wing and helped me to kind of figure my way through that that crazy first year of teaching. But he was a great, a great mentor and model of lifelong learning. I remember just all of the things that he would put in front of me - things that he was trying out. He had a wealth of experience as a teacher, but even in year 30 of teaching, he was still trying out new things reading, uh, trying to get, that was, you know, when technology was, we moved from the overhead projector into this exponential boom of technology.

[00:04:17] Travis: And he was trying all the time to really be ahead of that. So that was inspiring for me. And I think really set the tone for my, my career as an educator to know that it never has to be enough. You can still keep learning and challenging yourself and having that learner mindset. And I think that's been incredibly helpful for me. So shout out Richard Hillis if you're listening and watching. Yeah.

[00:04:44] Olivia: I think something that resonates hearing from both of you is that idea of having adults that trust us to take risks and grow and um, that they're going to model the risk-taking. I think that's just a critical piece. Um, what I love, well, let me name the issue first and why I was dying to have you both as guests.

[00:05:05] Olivia: So, two big pieces - um, meeting the needs of high school writers in general, because it's so vast. Um, and then also there are still a lot of practices that circle around having students memorize grammar rules, uh, where there's a wrong and a right. And what I love in the approach of Patterns of Power, uh, that you've designed is it's all the idea of invitations and trying things out, studying mentors, Holly, as your inspiring educator had you look at.

[00:05:41] Olivia: Um, and so I have a quote, um, it's an excerpt from the introduction of the book and it's Kylene Beers’s words. I just appreciate the way she frames the book so beautifully. Um, so I'm going to just jump in and read her quote, “I was watching master teachers, Jeff, Travis, and Holly, make things such as colons and commas, apostrophes and appositives, phrases and fragments, become more than things to be learned. Instead, they were turning conventions of language into conversations I wanted to have with kids.”

[00:06:18] Olivia: Boom. That's what this book does. That's what you do for adults and students alike. So, let's jump right in. How do you define a philosophical approach to grammar, um, instruction for middle and high school, Travis? Can you start us off? 

[00:06:36] Travis: Uh, yeah. So, our philosophical approach to grammar is an inquiry-based approach where we meet students where they are and also have them as co-learners in the classroom. I would bet that many of us, that the three of us in here probably came from that stage on the stage instructional model of grammar as students, but to have students as part of the process is highly powerful and also is an entry point into engaging them into the content.

[00:07:13] Travis: Our approach also looks at um, application as really where we're focusing on that as the end goal. Students being able to apply understand and be able to speak about the risks that they're taking or the choices that they are making as writers; why they feel like this choice is effective or more effective than another. So just to give them, um, as many choices as they can to, uh, just to explain themselves and explain their thinking as writers.

[00:07:50] Olivia: And so if we're thinking of the process, the Patterns of Power process and thinking of scheduling for grammar work, what does that look and feel like then? Um, and Holly, I'm going to bounce to you as well. Like, what does, what makes sense for teaching grammar in high school? 

[00:08:12] Holly: Well, I think when they get to high school, you know, they've, they've been there done that they've, they've done so many worksheets. They've been stuck on a variety of systems and software. And, and so I think so often the, the response is kind of a knee-jerk, oh, I've got to teach you everything again. But, but in reality, they've done it many times. So, I think what, what we really tried to offer was a different approach. And so what you're talking about, like with the rules, that's that prescriptivist approach, that we're starting with the rule, we're starting the way it should be. Where Patterns of Power is descriptivist, where we look at how is it really?

[00:08:55] Holly: And what can we learn from how it's actually used? So, you know, it's interesting, the rule versus usage. Usage, many times, doesn't follow the rule. So we really start with usage, not a rule. Um, and I, and I think when going through the process, especially when you really start with just noticing and then comparing two different sentences, that is, one, it's novel, it's different, it really just differentiates.

[00:09:23] Holly: So, if you've got a kid who's struggling, they can notice one thing. If you've got an advanced kid, they can notice more. And then as you slowly move through that process, it goes from being very approachable, very easy, to a little more challenging, a little more challenging, a little more challenging, and then it wraps up.

[00:09:41] Holly: So, it doesn't just, here's the rule, I've thrown you in the water. Um, and, and so I think, think that really makes a lot of sense for high schoolers. And then we also have other pieces like high schoolers, and I, I know this is a huge issue and, and many people will be like, yes. Especially with testing moving online.

[00:10:02] Holly: Students type the way they text. 

[00:10:04] Olivia: Yes. 

[00:10:05] Holly: So there's a difference in that they're typing on their phones and their goal is speed. Chat, chat, chat, chat, chat. Where for us our goal or the goal we'd like them to have is clarity. So, the process also slows down the process, not here's the rule, it's on the rubric, now do it.

[00:10:28] Olivia: Got it.

[00:10:28] Holly: So, it really sort of shifts their thinking. So, so I think that's, that's a lot of it that really makes sense to high schoolers and, and to approach it differently, but still to also keep in mind, a lot of these kids are traumatized by grammar quizzes, uh, and you know, they have very solid ideas about, well, no, I make F's on those, or I make A's on those, but even your A students, they make A's, but they don't do it when they write.

[00:10:54] Holly: So, you know, there's a lot of those pieces, uh, that you're able to embed within that process and have those conversations and really help kids see these are two different things and we can approach it differently. Does that make sense?

[00:11:07] Olivia: It does. It does. And what I'd love, Travis, if you could break down and name the exact steps of the process, uh, because Holly's done a gorgeous overview, kind of a broad stroke of the need and how we really want to invite students into the work. So, name that Patterns of Power process. Can you describe it for us? 

[00:11:27] Travis: Yeah, sure. So we have multiple invitations that create a specific lesson set that when put together, we feel like get students into a place where they're much more confident about moving into applying their learning and more confident about taking those chances with this new or a revised understanding of their pattern.

[00:11:49] Travis: So, we have, uh, we start with the invitation to notice. This is a five to ten-minute instructional chunk where we have pulled, we've curated a model from published writing and that is writing where, that students are probably reading. So, we're looking at young adult literature or text as the starting point.

[00:12:10] Travis: That model highlights a pattern that we would like ultimately students to see and understand. So we give them time to just have a discussion around the things that they notice happening within that model. From there, a new instructional time frame or a new lesson that goes after the invitation to notice is to compare and contrast.

[00:12:33] Travis: Where we do some comparative analysis with that original model, and then we add a new model either that we've pulled from literature or that we've created ourselves to give another, sometimes students another example of that pattern to be able to better understand it. We then focus students into that, um, the understanding of that grammatical pattern with a focus phrase that helps move them toward application.

[00:13:01] Travis: We invite them to, to imitate the pattern then either by prompting their thinking or sometimes we pick a model that just has a really good structure to it that is easily imitable for them to think through, uh, the perspective, their perspective to imitate it. From there, uh, a next invitation is to share and to celebrate.

[00:13:24] Travis: So, we have students, uh, share with each other, we offer opportunities or suggest opportunities to publish that writing, that chance that they took either in the classroom, on the walls, or digitally. We then move into an invitation to apply, so either apply through creating some new content connected to the work that we're doing in class, so that might be responding to a text or summarizing some content.

[00:13:53] Travis: Or we could go back to student writing and we can ask them to do something like revise a piece of their writing and think about where we could effectively, um, introduce or add the pattern within that writing. And then the last invitation is the invitation to edit where we say it's the space where best practice and test practice kind of meet up. We look back at the original model and then we offer three changes that have been made and ask students to do some more comparative analysis. What change is made and how does that affect us as we read it to look at what are the most effective moves that we could make? What other options exist and what choices might be kind of muddying or confusing to a reader as writers? So that ultimately, each of those in five to ten-minute instructional chunks makes up a lesson set for the Patterns of Power. 

[00:14:52] Olivia: How long does a lesson set go over time? So, if they're each five to ten minutes, how long does that carry?

[00:14:59] Travis: Sure, so we've seen teachers um, effectively put that through within one instructional week. We've also seen teachers split that into maybe two instructional weeks and then play in between that with some by offering that instructional time for maybe some student choice reading where we have the ability to then go back through with a lens of where might we see the pattern in the wild as we're reading our own choice text to bring it back to discussion around, oh, I see, look at, so this is where we, here's our original model.

[00:15:38] Travis: Here's where I'm seeing it in my book. This is what it looks like to continue to kind of grow that understanding. And, um, those observational skills that we're trying to set out within that original invitation. That's just an enhanced instructional practice to continue to help uh, students sit with that in their brain for a little bit longer. So, yeah, one to two weeks is where we, where those six, um, lessons can kind of go together. 

[00:16:09] Olivia: Holly, before you jump in, I want to give a shout-out to you guys. Um, the models that you have chosen are fabulous. And if I were teaching high school, I know you have other resources for middle school as well, and elementary, but I just, the models are spot on.

[00:16:28] Olivia: So as a teacher, I know we don't have tons of time to dig and find mentors. You have taken that off of our plate in a lot of different ways. Yes, we can find other examples to compare, but you've given us the starting point to say, okay, this is what I'm looking for. So I, I'm so grateful for that. Um, and I really love the term invitation. It's so much more welcoming. You know, I'll, I'll, I may try something you're inviting me to do versus here's a worksheet, do the rest. So, Holly, please share what you were going to jump in with. 

[00:17:04] Holly: Sorry, uh, the way that I see a lot of high school teachers and I do myself with kids, or at least I did last year is it's it's six invitations, but to fit it into the five days, what teachers do is they put the invitation to imitate and share together. So, they might make that go from 10 to 15 minutes, but basically, and usually, especially at high school, if you're on a campus with a 45-minute class or 50-minute class, what they'll do is they'll imitate - everybody writes it on a sticky note. They put the sticky note on the table. They all walk around. They read 5 other students.

[00:17:41] Holly: They sit back down. So, you have a very tight connection of those 2 invitations. Um, but that's a very nice way, especially for high school teachers worried about time and trying to fit everything in so you can put the six invitations in a plan. 

[00:17:56] Travis: Yeah, and while we, if I could, um, while we have, it's a pretty, um, kind of set process that we go through, there's a lot of responsive opportunities. So, an invitation could be repeated a second day if we feel like students aren't getting it. There's a lot of opportunity for formative assessment on the teacher part. When you're listening to the discussion, when you look at the imitations - oh, students really have this misunderstanding. Let's revisit it in a, in another invitation before we move forward. Cause ultimately we want that confidence and understanding to go together for students to go into application. Sorry, just wanted to throw that little caveat in there too. 

[00:18:42] Olivia: Yeah, I think it's important. And something I'm thinking like big picture is that I know from working with high school, especially ELA teachers, um, that when we're mapping units out over time, we're considering immersion.

[00:18:59] Olivia: What do students need to know content-wise to get to the end of a unit if we're having them create something, whether it's called a big make or to show the reading, writing, thinking, problem-solving work that has been done over the unit? Um, we're mapping big ideas of how this work helps them as readers and writers, but to be better humans. And a huge push that I have been studying at least this last year, if not the year before is around how much time is spent teacher talking at kids versus students doing the work themselves.

[00:19:38] Olivia: And it's kind of tragic when you get to high school, the amount of lecture. Um, I'm going to go all the way down to middle school. I mean, these, there are still many periods that are filled with lecture at students. So that magical one-third teacher owning the talk time, two-thirds students.

[00:19:57] Olivia: I'm going to even push that though, because even if one student is talking… 

[00:20:06] Holly: Right. 

[00:20:06] Olivia: … that falls in the one-third because you have no idea how the rest of the kids are engaged. Right? So some teachers or some adults kind of play the minutes game of, I'm going to ask a question. Student responds. It comes back to me. That's still one-third territory because everyone else could be thinking about lunch or who they're going on a date with later. So what I'm thinking about is, I'm going somewhere with this.

[00:20:29] Olivia: For that two-thirds time as a teacher, if I'm mapping a whole unit, how many different studies would I do like over a six-week period because in that two-thirds, I'm asking myself, what do kids need to read, write, talk, and problem solve about in order to reach the targets or in order to be successful with this unit? So, over a broad span of weeks, how many different invitations is it week after week or every 2 weeks back-to-back? What does that look and feel like over time?

[00:21:05] Holly: I think a lot of that really depends on, uh, the curriculum and the, the, the district. So, like, I'm working with a district right now that goes back and forth between, uh, independent reading and POP (Pattern of Power). And so, they have things on about a two-week cycle. And so, within a quarter, they expect teachers to probably get through maybe four.

[00:21:29] Olivia: Okay. 

[00:21:29] Holly: Uh, but I'm working with another district that is looking at over a quarter that, uh, teachers would actually get through six, and with that district, for the applications, the applications, many of them are reading applications, where they analyze the pattern in actual literature or nonfiction, and then they write a short constructed response with a quote, and so they'll study it, and then they actually add it into a short constructed response, which is heavily tested where we are in many other places.

[00:22:05] Holly: Um, so they actually pack more into it. So a lot of it really depends on the focus of the district. Um, I have talked to, I haven't met anybody though or encountered anyone that just boom, boom, boom, cranks it out every week. Um, and, and so I, I think if, if it's able to be integrated and embedded with what you do, that may change.

[00:22:32] Holly: Um, and I know for me last year, when I got to the fourth quarter, what I did was build your own POP (Pattern of Power). And the kids actually had to own a focus phrase and take from what we'd studied the rest of the year and they had to create their own POP (Pattern of Power) lesson. And then they had to even create their editing piece. And the editing piece and the three options were based on their data from their benchmark.

[00:22:55] Holly: Like what are three usage questions that you got wrong? And so then they present and actually gave it to each other to kind of review. So you know, there's, there's a lot of options like that that you can do. 

[00:23:06] Olivia: So, I want to just point something out because another huge aspect of conversations I'm having is evidence of learning. Student evidence of learning. And my hope moving into next school year is that every conversation I have with grownups about students starts with student work - with us looking at student work. And not looking at student work of what's not happening, looking at student work of what is in place that we can build upon or stand on the shoulders of. So, Travis, I'd love to hear your take on, you know, how are you using the student work that you have the kids applying the practices to drive future choice and instruction because you really focus on curriculum planning with adults too.

[00:23:55] Travis: Yeah, sure. So we, we do a lot of work with, um thinking about that kind of the back end of, of writing. So looking at our processed writing pieces and then analyzing what students are producing and also looking at different models of that type of writing and thinking about what what patterns might help students more effectively develop their ideas.

[00:24:23] Travis: So, for example, if we're looking at, um, a persuasive argumentative. writing piece, we may look at in a positive phrase to be added as a way to maybe rename an expert. So give a little bit of, a little bit more information about that. If students have that understanding of that pattern, saw it in a model, we could then look at that on the back end of maybe a rubric for, for grading the effectiveness of that writing, the mastery of that writing.

[00:24:54] Travis: And that could be one of a few choices based on a few of the patterns that we've highlighted during that writing process time. And we like to, I like to really also promote students having a say in that rubric where they have some self-reflective space of, I chose this pattern here and this is why I think it has made my writing more effective.

[00:25:17] Travis: So that's an added piece where student, that, that student efficacy. I confidently understand the choice that I made as a writer. And here is why I think it's most effective. I can’t ask for anything more than that, for my students. I think that's a pretty high level of writing mastery for students to come away with - understanding of these specific patterns and how to put them into practice in the writing that we're actually doing in class.

[00:25:44] Travis: So that's a, that's a really big push with, uh, teachers and schools that I work with to be able to support how does this go from, uh, a really engaging activity into some really deep application where we can see, um, see student work and show where it's being effective, where this is actually working for kids.

[00:26:10] Olivia: Yeah, I know adults that it would benefit greatly to be able to describe the choices they're making as writers. Um, and Holly, one of my favorite things that I've heard you describe before is your beliefs about grading and conferring with kids. And I'd love for listeners to benefit from that. So, I know you spoke to tests that are happening where you are, but that's not where the rubber meets the road.

[00:26:39] Holly: No. Uh, conferring and a lot of the shifts and I guess just to kind of piggyback on what Travis just said. If you're thinking about student work and you're thinking about conferring with a student and talking them through their choices, one of the things that as, as a, as a POP (Patterns of Power) teacher, I'm always going to be asking questions around purpose.

[00:27:02] Holly: I'm not going to be asking questions around, did you use the comma correctly? And so, so even thinking of concepts, and I, I know I, I work with a lot of teachers where they, they say, well, we can't even confer because they don't know what subjects and predicates are. And so, the, the focus in the conversation is not, do you know what a subject and predicate is?

[00:27:26] Holly: It's for that kid that has, you know, their sentence is four pages long. The conversation is, you know, do you understand a sentence boundary? Where are the end, where do your ideas stop? Can we talk through where your ideas stop and you read and you stop speaking, pause for a minute so that I know where you think your ideas are pausing, and then let's talk about the best thing to do there.

[00:27:52] Holly: So, if you're thinking about conferring, especially with a kid who's, who's struggling, those are really, that's your entry point. And that's the lens with which you would look through that, that conference. And then of course, the other way is to have students try that pattern out. And the, the conferring is, let's talk about where you tried the pattern out and let's talk about how you're feeling about it.

[00:28:17] Holly: So, even if you don't go much further than that conversation, you and a student have had some conversation around what they're doing. And, and those things are important conversations. And, of course, then that hops to how do we grade? How do you put numbers on everything? Because, especially at high school, uh, and the older they get and the more panicked they get about their GPA and their rank and all of that. Um, you know, if you think about grades, you also have to think about if I put a grade on that conference, if the conference is a grade, what have I said about the conference, I've said you're, you can do it wrong.

[00:28:58] Holly: But a conference can never be wrong. It's always gotta be a conference. So, thinking about shifting things like instead of grading the actual conferring we add at the bottom of the rubric, discuss with me one thing that you learned through a peer conference or with a teacher conference that you implemented here.

[00:29:22] Olivia: Ah, that's beautiful. Okay. 

[00:29:24] Holly: Boom. 

[00:29:24] Olivia: I love it. 

[00:29:25] Holly: Well, that can be points. 

[00:29:26] Olivia: Yeah. 

[00:29:27] Holly: Because I do expect you to be able to do that, and that tells me an enormous amount of information as a teacher. So, if a kid's writing, oh, I put a comma because someone told me to, then I know that kid probably needs an intervention. Now I know I've got somebody who conceptually doesn't understand. So, I think it's really just shifting, like I said, shifting that lens to view it a different way and to view your grades differently. Um, but also in, in the book, you'll see quite a few of these, especially in chapter three, there's a variety of thinking sheets and brainstorming sheets. 

[00:30:02] Holly: And way to keep track of, these are the focus phrases we've covered, and I've just put a check by the ones I've used. 

[00:30:09] Olivia: Yeah. 

[00:30:10] Holly: So all of those things really help you keep track and help those conversations. And, and actually can have a number assigned to them eventually, and it'll still be fair because that's the main thing. Uh, if a grade's not fair, it's worthless.

[00:30:25] Olivia: Oh! If a grade's not fair, it's worthless. 

[00:30:28] Travis: Quote that! Quote tweet. Here we go.

[00:30:29] Olivia: Boom again. I love it. It's so good. So good. 

[00:30:34] Holly: Should we get t-shirts? Sorry. It just came out of me. I didn't practice. 

[00:30:36] Olivia: We're ready. I'm ready. Um, I, I also, I, you know, my world was rocked when it comes to grading after reading Sarah Zerwin's book, Pointless, um, and her perspective on grading that look, you're starting with a 100 or an A, and this is what over time you need to do to get there. This is where you are. This is what you need to get there. It's such a different perspective than that deficit-based model. And, Holly, I also love, you can't grade a conference. Who will ever take risks in application if they're waiting to be wrong?

[00:31:14] Olivia: If they're waiting for a grade, there's just, it's all about application. So, I love your perspective, both of you, um, and how you're using what students are doing to drive our planning and drive that next day instruction, next inquiry instruction. It's beautiful. Um, so one of the quotes from page three, got at my heartstrings, I'm going to read it and I think it's just so perfect and you've alluded to it, both of you with usage, but here we go.

[00:31:44] Olivia: “Have you ever noticed that worksheets avoid the gray areas of usage like some outside ever-present authority worksheets wield the gavel of absolute right and wrong. This dichotomy interferes with meaning-making and asks students to be good guessers, searching for what is right rather than what makes meaning.”

[00:32:06] Olivia: And I continue to take that quote, it bounces around in my mind, not just when it comes to grammar instruction, it comes to math or mathematical thinking. There are so many classrooms that are still a right or wrong answer. Give the kids the sample, give the kids the answer, and then say, what are different ways of getting there?

[00:32:29] Olivia: What could I be thinking about? That's what I love about your approach. You start with the model with kids. It's not guessing. It's not trying to figure it out. It's looking at beautiful examples of the, the different grammar pieces. So I just, I appreciate that. Um, and then there's this big elephant hanging out with us that's evolved ever so much since November of 2022.

[00:32:56] Olivia: When the, the world of ELA teachers kind of came crashing down and AI, ChatGPT started creeping in and it became kind of terrifying for some, kind of exciting for others. So. I'd love for your take on where you stand now with ChatGPT. Uh, Travis, kick us off and then Holly, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it as well.

[00:33:21] Travis: Well, today I'm excited about it. Currently I see so much, uh, so much benefit and potential for good. That happens in there, especially if, um, if our students have ownership of their learning and the writing that they do, if they feel invested in it, then I see ChatGPT is just a really nice way to enhance some of the work that I might that might take me a long time.

[00:33:50] Travis: Now it's becoming more efficient. Or it's another place - I just read um, an ed-tech guru talking about how they suggest the idea of for another space for feedback to take your first draft of writing, put it into ChatGPT and ask for some specific feedback on it. I think that's another amazing space in that world where students get a lot of feedback really fast.

[00:34:25] Travis: The fact that myself as a teacher, I can't give immediate feedback to 180 students all the time. But other students can as well, as here, here's now suddenly this other opportunity for maybe some, some work in helping to develop our thinking and get some feedback that could move us forward. I think that's just one of the many ways that I've read where I see benefit. I understand the teachers who are maybe nervous about it and don't like it, but that's where I land today. 

[00:34:59] Olivia: Yeah. Holly, how about you?

[00:35:03] Holly: Uh, you know, when it, when it hit last year, my teachers that do all parts of the process on paper didn't sweat it at all, but my teachers that didn't and kids just turned in an essay and they never really taught any of the writing pieces were panicked.

[00:35:26] Holly: And so I was like, well, that really says it all, doesn't it? So, like the kids I was working with, they had to turn in the poetry with their annotations. They had to turn in some pure brainstorm. They did like 10 different things and some of it was online, some of it was on paper. But it all had to match. So when they got to the end, it was super clear who, who wrote it and who didn't.

[00:35:50] Holly: Um, so. You know, it, it, I didn't realize how vexing it was to other people just because we were keeping track of the process. Um, on the other end, though, I do see where for teachers that aren't that comfortable writing and teaching writing, where that would feel very, uh, I guess just uncomfortable. That they would be duped, and they wouldn't know it, and nobody wants to feel that way.

[00:36:24] Holly: So I think that was another piece. So I know one of the things I did with teachers was anytime we had a writing prompt, I would take the writing prompt and just keep putting it through ChatGPT. And I put it through probably 25 times. And so what I realized was the system actually has about four answers.

[00:36:44] Holly: So, uh, and I think it was what were we, they were reading like (An) Indian Father's Plea, and we put in the question, like, you know, how does he, uh, what diction does he use to approach his audience or something along those lines? So it was a very specific question with a specific text. And so, what I did is then we brought that in, and as a PLC (Professional Learning Community), the teachers all looked through it.

[00:37:08] Holly: And so we discussed, does this hit the depth of what we want? Are any of these exemplars that we could use? But that way, we sort of owned what the system did, and we were super familiar with what it spit out. So when they had kids that had actually used it, they easily saw it, because we had all of them right there in front of us.

[00:37:31] Holly: We had a little binder of them. So I thought it was very empowering to use it that way because then they didn't feel they, they would be duped and even though I couldn't get everybody to be a great writing teacher, you know, within two months, um, I was able to actually help with that feeling. And I think a lot of them, what a couple of them said is, you know, I don't think this deeply a lot of times about what I'm teaching.

[00:37:57] Holly: So this was actually informative for me. And I actually learned from ChatGPT. So then it was just a very different conversation. So, uh, you know, I think there's ways to work with it that are smart and that that can help. And, and there's no reason to do the, we're just gonna throw our arms up and everybody run around and scream.

[00:38:17] Holly: However, it does feel good sometimes to do.

[00:38:19] Olivia: It does. 

[00:38:20] Holly: Uh, but, uh, yeah, so, so that's, that's where I am with it. I. I think, just with Travis, there's a lot of interesting things. I think Larry Ferlazzo just, uh, did an article where he took his, uh, ESL kids and put some of their papers into ChatGPT and asked it to grade these papers, but to try to be very kind, uh, and keep in mind that they were language learners and see what sort of responses that the system gave. And I was like, wow! That sounds super exciting. So I forwarded that to our ESL teachers. 

[00:38:58] Olivia: Yeah. 

[00:38:59] Holly: Uh, yeah. A lot of interesting things, but I can see where people are, you know… 

[00:39:05] Olivia: I think it speaks volumes of the need to have students do the work, that two-thirds, going back to it. If you're giving kids time to write in class, to read in class, it's not as scary.

[00:39:18] Olivia: Um, and Travis, I think it was you that taught me about another way to use ChatGPT. Where you could put your draft in, as you've said, but also ask ChatGPT, what the, the heart of the story is…

[00:39:34] Travis: What do you…what do you see as the heart of it? Yeah, just the amount of, I think for me, the more I understand how to ask and interact with AI, the more powerful it becomes. So I think just knowing the way to ask the right, it's like the right question, right? Back when Google started, right, it was like, how do I get to the answer I really want? What's the Google phraseology to use? Right? Yeah. 

[00:40:03] Holly: The whole keyword and everything and what people do.

[00:40:06] Olivia: It's so true, and I think it just again circles back to playing with something and trying it, experimenting, and it's the exact same thing we want our students to do. Holly, I love that you studied it with teachers and, and figured it out. You're kind of cracking the code. Um, so again, there's a big difference between usage and clarity. And the whole purpose in POP, Patterns of Power is that we really want students to have their voices reach the audiences that they're intending to because they have clarity in their messaging and the way they're using their writing, um, as their voice. So what would you say, Travis, you can start us off. What is a call to action? 

[00:40:54] Travis: Reiterating, looking for the beautiful things in what we read and highlighting those for students and giving students space to appreciate it as well. I think sometimes for me, um, the first time I ask a group of students, what do you notice?

[00:41:14] Travis: And just open that space. It's, like sometimes students are a little scared. I'm not sure what to do, but then ultimately things that come out are so beautiful and thoughtful and often messy because that's that adolescent brain at work. But I think just giving space for, um, for observing that we're going to check it out to get into and then opening discussion around the things that we're all reading. We all have amazing things that we could share that we're reading right now and take a look at some of the great writing that's crafted around it. 

[00:41:55] Olivia: Yeah. Holly, how about you?

[00:41:59] Holly: I think it really all comes down to purposeful communication, whether it's speaking, whether it's reading and sharing what you've read, whether it's writing, whether it's an email, whether it's poetry, it all comes down to being able to communicate purposefully in whatever context to whatever audience that you need.

[00:42:23] Holly: And the only way to do that. is to communicate in many, many, many different ways and to study how other people communicate. Um, and so I, I like it, it's sort of like, uh, one of Tim Ferriss's thing. That's the guy that you can learn anything in a couple of steps. But you know, one of the things is to, to, to go backward, start with the end product and then work our way backward, which is when you're communicating, that's what you should do! 

[00:42:52] Holly: Always study the end and then work your way backward. And so I, I think that's, that's the call to action. It's really not about worksheets. It's not about silently looking at a computer. It's about engaging and purposefully communicating in every way possible.

[00:43:08] Olivia: I love it. And. I have loved getting to know both of you through the writing before we were ever in touch. And now to be in connection with you and conversation with you, it's been dreamy. And I know I, I want to offer listeners an opportunity to reach you, um, in the best way. So,Travis, I know you have, um, your own website. 

[00:43:35] Travis: Sure, yeah. Through learningleech.com, through my website, there's a contact me space if you wanna connect. Otherwise, I am currently connected most often through Twitter. You can find me at Learning Leech. So just directly connecting. I always love when, uh, teachers tag me when they're interacting with a process and kind of sharing some great student work that comes out of it. So anytime a teacher wants to do that or ask a question.

[00:44:05] Travis: Um, there is also; Holly might be mentioning it, but I guess I'm going to take that, uh, the Patterns of Power (Facebook) Community. If you still hook in, in that, in Facebook as a social media space. That's a, a really robust community. I think 12,000 teachers strong right now, who pose and answer each other's questions. It's a great support system. And we connect on there very often as well to be able to answer some of those difficult implementation or, hey, I'm thinking about this. Can you help me through it to just be another, um, another voice to, to help teachers with that. 

[00:44:44] Olivia: Awesome. I will make sure to include links to everything in the show notes as well that you mentioned.

[00:44:49] Travis: Great. Thank you.

[00:44:49] Olivia: Holly, what's the best way we can continue learning from you?

[00:44:54] Holly: Well, I have a website as well where you can connect with me. It's hollydurham. com. Uh, I'm also on Twitter. Super easy to find me. I'm HollyDurham70. The year I was born, I've been in education. I just finished my 31st year, shocker! Uh, and also of course through Facebook. So those are all very easy ways. Um, we, I'm sure Travis and I, you can also put our, uh, email, you know what I mean? And we've got all that through the website as well. 

[00:45:24] Olivia: I will include those details. Um, I cannot thank you both enough for being guests, sharing your brilliance. I want to end our conversation with one of my favorite quotes I lifted from your book page 131. Um, I grew up in Elmira, New York and Mark Twain's study is there. And there's a lot of history around, um, his work. And so the quote that I paused with is his. “The right word may be effective, but no word was ever as effective as a rightly timed pause.”

[00:46:02] Olivia: So I will pause now, no pun intended, well, actually intended, to thank both of you for your spectacular important work around authentic grammar instruction. You rock. Thank you. 

[00:46:15] Holly: Thank you so much for having us. 

[00:46:17] Olivia: Absolutely. 

[00:46:17] Travis: Yeah. Great to chat. 

[00:46:19] Olivia: Yes. Take care guys. Bye. 

[00:46:22] Holly: Bye!

[00:46:23] Olivia: Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my guests, Travis Leech and Holly Durham. Also, a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. I would love for you to share the podcast far and wide. Leave a review, subscribe on YouTube, and follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you'd like to become a Schoolutions sponsor or share episode ideas, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast, or connect via email at @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.



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Olivia Wahl

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