Schoolutions –S1 E9: Our Coaching Learning Community (CLC): A Lifeline for Connecting Coaches Around the Country with Antonia Cameron and Renee McShane
[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. Hello, I am Olivia Wahl, and I am humbled to have two magnificent women as guests today. Toni Cameron has come to know mathematics deeply through her work as co-director of Mathematics in the City with Catherine Fosnot, as well as her previous work as a co-director of Metamorphosis Teaching Learning Communities with Lucy West.
[00:00:35] Olivia: Both of these experiences led to co-founder and CEO of ReimaginED Teaching a coaching community devoted to transforming teaching and learning and education. Renee McShane has been a building level coach with public and private organizations for nearly 20 years. Her path crossed with Toni at Math in the City and Metamorphosis.
[00:00:58] Olivia: Currently, Renee is the co-founder and Chief Operating Officer of Reimagined Teaching. Hi. Toni Cameron has numerous publications, 19 to be exact- two, currently most in use. Her book, Early Childhood Math Routines, Empowering Young Minds to Think as well as Agents of Change, How Content Coaching Transforms Teaching, which was co-authored with Lucy West.
[00:01:23] Olivia: Welcome ladies. I am thrilled to have you today and one of my favorite questions to ask guests is who has been an inspiring educator in your life? Toni, do you wanna kick it off?
[00:01:37] Toni: Sure. That's such a challenging question because there's so many people. Um, I was thinking about my uncle, my uncle Tony, my namesake.
[00:01:47] Toni: He was someone that taught me things that I think are really important. To value other human beings. To be able to listen to other people, to always be learning and to be humble in your learning, and to be gentle, to be gentle with other human beings. So, when I think about education, there's the, the content piece of education, but then there's the piece of education that makes you a better human being.
[00:02:11] Toni: So, when I think of the person that probably inspired me the most, when I was young, it was my uncle Tony.
[00:02:18] Olivia: Renee, how about you?
[00:02:20] Renee: Well, I would say if I think about as a parent, I'm inspired by educators and even in my, my young self, I think the common thread has always been passion. After I get home from those back-to-school nights, I, I have my list of who I think are gonna be the ones that are gonna be standouts for my kids, and we compare notes and it always comes down to energizing and excitement and passion.
[00:02:42] Renee: So, there's a couple that I remember from middle school and high school. I really think that that has been something that I've tried to emulate over time is like when you really love something, you don't have to work too hard to get everybody to draw you right in.
[00:02:54] Olivia: So true. And I know we've been collaborating quite a bit over the last two years, and one piece that I am really lucky to be a part of is the coaching learning community (CLC) that you both created, initiated and invited me to. I think as a coach right now, or especially over the last couple of years, it's felt really isolating.
[00:03:18] Olivia: So, an issue that I'd like to address that you've figured out a way to get around is that there's coaching that's happening in communities, but it doesn't feel connected to other people to beliefs or it doesn't feel maybe representative of our beliefs and it may feel even disconnected from content. Something, uh, I wanted to ask right off the bat, how did the coach collaborative come to be? What's the mission, vision, values? Could you speak to that?
[00:03:49] Toni: Sure. I'll start off, because I've been doing coaching now for about 20 years.
[00:03:55] Toni: Actually, I think every teacher's a coach, so we'll put that to the side. But it started probably around 2003, 2004 when New York City changed curricula and then they had coaches in every school and it was like: Hey, you, you're a coach! And, um, working with a district, uh, 15n and thinking about how to, the teachers now coaches think about how to work with their colleagues, it was really challenging.
[00:04:22] Toni: And so, thinking about the understanding of content being so critical, like the content you're, you're teaching, and then the human part, like the communication part, like how you interact with other human beings. And so, these two things started to fuel my work with coaches. And so, this was a more formal kind of experience.
[00:04:42] Toni: But working probably with about 50 different coaches in these little collaboratives. They were put in clusters cuz there was no other way to do it. And then bringing them together and studying the art of coaching and thinking about teachers and teachers developmentally and how do we improve their practice?
[00:04:59] Toni: How do we support them and challenge them at the same time? So that was the beginning of it. And then, you know, Meeting Lucy West at a, a national conference and the two of us attending each other's sessions and thinking, wow we're kind of doing the similar kind of thing here. Let's come together. And then the book grew out of that.
[00:05:17] Toni: And I started working, uh, with Lucy at Metamorphosis. And the, the coaching was the centerpiece of that. And so then as part of both Math in the City and Metamorphosis, creating these learning communities, bringing educators together. And the learning communities were around grade level, like first grade, second grade, like that.
[00:05:37] Toni: They were leaders, like principals coming together to think about the teaching and learning of mathematics. And then the coach collaborative. And the coach collaborative is something I've loved for a really long time. So, bringing coaches together is such an isolating thing to be a coach. To bring people together and to really study practice, and to share problems and to celebrate things that are wonderful that happen along the way. So that those are sort of the roots of it.
[00:06:02] Toni: And then in, in 2020, with COVID, starting a new company and keeping that as one of our central pieces and keeping it open to people, doing it virtually, making it free. So, everyone had access and a lot of people joined up from all over the country, and so it's a wonderful group. We only have an hour together, but that hour we share some amazing things.
[00:06:25] Olivia: We sure do.
[00:06:26] Renee: You know, it's interesting, as some people even said that we felt like a lifeline last year. Because it was this very safe place where this community came together and it's just a neutral kind of listening and coming together to feel inspired in a time when it felt like, wow, everything we know, certain things have changed, but what has stayed the same?
[00:06:44] Renee: So, I think that was really powerful and it was really about this kind of need for connection during COVID. And when Toni's speaking about the journey of the CLC, what's amazing is that's what drew me to Metamorphosis in the begin as a participant, because I was a building level coach, and many times people wrongly perceive you as this expert.
[00:07:05] Renee: Meanwhile, you need to have this constant community to troubleshoot all of your ideas and develop. So those were really transformational for me along those years. Just studying video and analyzing coaching moves, listening to other coaches and having that opportunity to learn. So, I've experienced it first as a learner.
[00:07:22] Renee: I mean always as a learner, but first as a participant before even being part of it on the other side.
[00:07:27] Olivia: Toni, you brought me to the way back machine of 2005 because I was one of those teachers that was plucked out of the classroom and told you are a coach, and I was teaching, I think first grade, it was at PS 116.
[00:07:44] Olivia: And Anna Marie Carrillo approached me in Brooklyn heading to the subway, and we talked and talked and the most beautiful part of being part of the CLC now, it does have a very similar vibe to our get togethers on Fridays of where we would come together in various places in district 2 and study and learn and troubleshoot.
[00:08:07] Olivia: And so that's one of my favorite pieces of being part of the current CLC because even though we're all looking at each other on screens, we are connected.
[00:08:16] Toni: So, I was gonna add to the piece of, um, helping people to film their practice and to reflect on what it is they do and to gather evidence. So, you may think you're doing one thing and then you look at the evidence, like, that's not what I thought I was doing.
[00:08:31] Toni: And so, this year we've been studying what do you value as a coach, right? And your values actually shine through and how you interact with people using transcripts, using clip video to study what it is we do and to name that practice, I think is really helpful. Um, it's also a little humbling, but humble is good.
[00:08:50] Olivia: Yeah. And so that's a perfect segue into the next talking point I wanted to address for listeners. It is humbling to record and to watch yourself as a coach. Something I had a lot of learning to do around is pausing and not trying to fix everything for teachers that I saw is possible next steps. And it was Lucy West that said: Livi, stop talking so much.
[00:09:20] Olivia: And boy did I go home that day and really think about it. And, and now I have a podcast. But I think that the irony, Lucy said, when you think you wanna solve the world's problems, instead ask a question, pause and ask a question. It was really good coaching advice and I, I think that watching ourselves when I looked back at videos and then had the horrible moment of transcribing a conversation as a coach and seeing how unbalanced it was.
[00:09:53] Olivia: Just like we look at teacher-student voice in class. We're facilitators. Right? So, it's not just watching recording yourself the transcription and looking at the balance of voices. That's what we recently had done. I know you're going to be sharing video and transcripts as well. What is the thinking behind that work?
[00:10:14] Olivia: How has it evolved with your Reimagined work?
[00:10:19] Toni: Yeah. Well, I think a big thing for me in, in reflecting and assessing your, your own practice as a coach goes back to what you value. It goes back to the idea that knowing yourself is foundational for interacting with other human beings. And so, slowing down the processing, and one way to slow down the processing is not to open your mouth, but to actually listen, which is hard.
[00:10:42] Toni: And so, then if what I value is my talking and I come in with this belief system around I can impart information and I can fix things. Then you're gonna talk. If your thinking is, um, structured around the idea that I don't know what I don't know, and my job is to inquire until I do know, then you're going to interact in a different kind of way.
[00:11:04] Toni: One of the activities in Agents of Change is called painting the teacher portrait, and the painting of the teacher portrait paints both yourself because you're painting the portrait and at the same time it's what you're looking for and listening to or attending to that comes up. So, thinking about who is a teacher and then narrowing the frame of the work to thinking about a scaffold.
[00:11:25] Toni: So, what is it that this person knows? What are their strengths and what are their areas of growth? And then when you think about it developmentally, it shifts things because then I'm not gonna try and change everything. I can't change everything. But engaging with that person, helping them see things through your lens, which is a different lens.
[00:11:43] Toni: Listening to them and then thinking about how can we collaborate to get better in terms of what it is we do.
[00:11:49] Olivia: Renee, what are you thinking?
[00:11:50] Renee: I was just thinking about the power of the transcript, both as somebody who reflects on your own practice. And like you were saying, Livi, sometimes the mirror isn't so pretty to look at.
[00:12:00] Renee: You really have to think about your own goals. But then the power that it has in engaging in difficult conversations with, with our teachers or whoever, we're working with leaders, because it's this neutral way of helping self-reflection. It's not my interpretation or their remembering of events. It actually just allows for this neutral space where we anchor the conversation in evidence.
[00:12:21] Renee: And it allows us to really say the things that need to be said in a way that it can be heard. So, I think that's something that while transcripts are time consuming to create, what comes out of that is really impactful work in terms of transforming teacher practice. And a lot of times I've done this and it's been an emotional experience.
[00:12:39] Renee: It's been something where people have had kind of an emotional journey where they start reflecting and saying: Wait a second. You know, the things that I'm seeing in this lesson is actually my teaching in general. It is me as a communicator in general, it is me about any relationship. So, their ability to see themselves is, is really the power of the transcript and the video.
[00:13:00] Olivia: It is. And you're reminding me too, of coaching institutes that I've been a part of. Where you just alluded to it, Renee. Uh, it's looking at the language between the coach, the teacher. It's also though connecting it to either coaching moves based on research or research in general because then it takes it not just to the black and white of what happened, but also how is this best practices for students, for teachers and education in general?
[00:13:30] Olivia: So, I think that's a huge piece. I'd love for Toni for you to speak to listening stumbling blocks, because this is something that is so much about coaching. So many adults right now need to be aware of listening stumbling blocks, and it would be helpful to hear about.
[00:13:48] Toni: I think you can think about it from analyzing yourself as a person. Even it, it has nothing to do with education. How you interact in your, your personal life, like tuning your husband out, not hearing what he's saying, you know, um, getting that kind of feedback. So, I think we are living in such a distracted age that it's hard to pay attention.
[00:14:09] Toni: And so, trying to be centered, trying to sending yourself around what's happening. Do I understand what's happening? And staying focused is probably the hardest thing. And so, the stumbling blocks come from wanting to fix something. From thinking, you know, something from thinking, you know, more from judging the person.
[00:14:29] Toni: Or you know, minimalizing them in some way because of how they speak, or that you don't agree with their belief systems or whatever. The act of humble listening is the act of respecting each individual as an individual and trying to know them without judging them. And then there's tools you need, like how you question people.
[00:14:47] Toni: Sometimes we don't hear ourselves, you know? Um, I've gotten into trouble questioning people where it can feel like an attack. Then you start to develop ways of interacting that are like soft on the edges. But the thing is still there, like the hard question’s still there just doesn't feel like a hammer when you say it.
[00:15:04] Toni: And so, I think listening is something that we all have to work on in different ways. Coming to know yourself, the heart of coaching is knowing yourself, and when you know yourself, like if you process very quickly and someone speaks slowly, you're in trouble.
[00:15:26] Toni: If you process in a way where you like connecting dots and it's like, let's get to it and someone's a wanderer and they create this narrative that seems to have no beginning and end, and it's just like, oh my goodness, I don't know what this person's talking about. So, you have to train yourself to let go of yourself and to be present to that other person for who they are, not for who you want them to be.
[00:15:44] Olivia: And I, I think too, Renee, you shared with me before we started recording that you and Toni are headed off to Sweet Home Central School District.
[00:15:54] Renee: Yeah.
[00:15:54] Olivia: In Amherst, New York, soon this week. And I'd love to know more about the impacts that this CLC, that is one hour, once a month, is having on your coaching communities on the ground.
[00:16:08] Renee: Well, it's wonderful that our coaches that we're working with up there are actually participating. So, there is this synergy between the two, and I think really just exploring themselves and our own practice and seeing, I think what makes our community so, so vibrant and also authentic is that none of these videos are perfect and polished.
[00:16:27] Renee: Not that there ever is. But there's this sense of, this is raw footage. So, what we had at our last CLC was just people bringing a clip of themselves having a conversation. It wasn't vetted, it wasn't perfectly edited, it was just, who are you? Bring us a clip. And I think that allows people to feel like, oh, there's an entry point.
[00:16:47] Renee: Like everybody can do this. I don't have to be at the top of my career. I'm a new coach, but I could still engage. So, I think that's something that feels like this invitation. It doesn't feel like a judgment. And I think that that whole feeling of mindset is really what we love so much about the coaches that we work with, is that they're willing to study their practice.
[00:17:06] Renee: And it really feels like a genuine collaboration where we're learning as much as they are in terms of our own coaching and our own lesson design. So that really feels like the best combination is when we actually get to see our coaches in their environment, working in their communities, working on those goals.
[00:17:22] Renee: So, we are really excited to head back up there for that reason.
[00:17:25] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:17:26] Toni: And Livi one model, um, we use is called Coaching the Coach. And so, for newer coaches being coached as a teacher, right? You plan the lesson with them. You co-teach the lesson with a group of students and you debrief it. So, you're the coach, they're the teacher.
[00:17:44] Toni: They take that same lesson and take a classroom teacher and coach that lesson. They plan with the teacher. They co-teach, they debrief, and you're coaching into it. So, the conversations are around: What did it feel like for you as a teacher, as I was probing your, your ideas as I was tweaking things as I entered into your lesson in the classroom, as you know, I challenged you maybe in the debrief?
[00:18:07] Toni: Because you need the tools as a coach to be able to nurture and challenge and you keep going back and forth like that. And then to actually experience being coached as a coach because now I'm then giving feedback to them as a coach, and that feels different as well.
[00:18:22] Toni: Because I'm seeing things maybe differently than they are. But it's a really powerful model, and I'll say for all the, um, people I've felt most successful with as a coach, it's because we've allowed ourselves the time to slow down and think about what is this thing coaching. And I think for the group in Sweet Home, one of the things that's been powerful for them in the, in their feedback to us has been the idea that we are all learning together. There's no hierarchy, and it's a very powerful model of interacting as educators.
[00:18:54] Olivia: I think it's not only powerful, it's inspiring, and it's so beautiful for our children to see all of the adults in the room really studying the work. And I find it's a unifying force in my darkest days of coaching when we reminded ourselves it's not about us so much as it's about children and the work, and then how are we going to really be reflective of who we are in service of that.
[00:19:23] Olivia: That collaboration, because we don't all agree and there are many difficult conversations that happen in coaching, but it's so worthy of our time, if it's always grounded in our children and what's best for them. I cannot thank you both enough for being guests on the show. We have many future episodes ahead.
[00:19:43] Olivia: We're trying to think of literacy and mathematics connections. So many more conversations to be had and shared. Thank you for this small nugget of goodness. Thank you, ladies.
[00:19:53] Renee: Thanks for having us.
[00:19:54] Toni: Thank you.
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