Navigating the World Alcohol-Free: Sober Travel Tips From an Outdoor Enthusiast

Welcome to the Outdoor Adventure Series podcast! In this episode, we're chatting with travel writer, outdoor enthusiast, and author Teresa Bergen. Teresa, a longtime sober traveler and advocate, shares her passion for exploring the world alcohol-free and discusses her newly published "Sober Travel Handbook: Navigating the World Alcohol-Free." 

From kayaking the Chicago River to rafting the Grand Canyon, Teresa inspires listeners with stories of her adventures and insightful tips for navigating travel without alcohol. Whether you're in recovery, simply prefer not to drink, or are curious about embracing sober travel, Teresa’s experiences, practical advice, and enthusiasm for the outdoors offer a fresh perspective on how to fully enjoy life’s adventures. Tune in as Teresa talks about her journey, the importance of support systems, and how outdoor activities can shift the focus from drinking to discovery—all while encouraging everyone to pursue new interests and enjoy the outdoors, alcohol-free.

DISCUSSION

00:00 "Embracing Outdoors at Any Age"

04:37 Journey to Writing About Sober Travel

06:33 "Sober Travel Writing Journey"

11:00 Short, Firm Ways to Say No

13:02 "Sober Life and Connection"

19:04 Abstinence Violation Effect Explained

22:23 Kayaking and Watercoloring Adventures

25:09 Sober Bars and Book Tour

27:44 Grand Canyon Rafting Adventure

33:04 Paddleboarding and River Adventures

36:16 "Kayaking with Alligators."

38:10 "Reflecting on Passion and Growth."

40:43 "Embrace Imperfection, Try Again."

LEARN MORE

To learn more about Teresa and her work, visit her website at http://teresabergen.com/ or on these social sites:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ride4_rights/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/teresa.bergen.3

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teresa-bergen-1083463a

NEXT STEPS

Visit us at https://outdooradventureseries.com to like, comment, and share our episodes.

KEYWORDS

Teresa Bergen, Sober Traveler Handbook, Outdoor Adventure Series, Podcast Interview, PodMatch

#TeresaBergen #SoberTravelerHandbook #OutdoorAdventureSeries #PodcastInterview #PodMatch

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello everyone, this is Howard Fox, and welcome back for another episode of the Outdoor Adventure Series, the podcast that celebrates individuals and families, businesses, and organizations that seek out and promote the exploration, stewardship, conservation, access, and enjoyment of the outdoors. Teresa Bergen is our guest today. Teresa is a travel writer and a longtime sober person who helps others in recovery see the world without picking up a drink. She is also the author of the newly published book, Sober Travel Handbook, Navigating the World Alcohol Free. Teresa, it's a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Welcome.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Hi, Howard. Thanks so much for having me. I'm a big outdoors enthusiast as well, so I'm excited to be on your show.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

I love that. And I have to share, while I host the outdoor adventure series podcast, I do not get outdoors and explore as much as some of my guests do. And as I was researching for this uh episode today, I'm thinking this woman really gets out there and is going to some exciting places. And and I also have to share, I it was not lost on me that you were kayaking on the Chicago River. Good for you. I I'm originally from Chicago, but Chicago's beautiful and it's so fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Next time you get back there, you got to go kayak on it.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

I think that would be uh something definitely to do. The last time I was on a kayak, I literally was pushed out onto the water and tipped over. So I don't I I so I I have this feeling, but in any case, this is all about you today because I want to hear all about you. First off, where are you located?

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Well, right now I live in Portland, Oregon. I've been here since the year 2000, and places I've lived before include um California, various parts of California, and also a couple of places in Louisiana.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Okay. Now, have you always been an outdoor enthusiast? Because you, again, you've gone to some really fantastic places, and for our listeners, we're going to take a tour of Teresa's website in a little bit, and you'll see some of her destinations. But how did you begin to get the first off the the love of the outdoors and being an outdoor enthusiast, and then the travel bug of actually taking this passion to the four corners of the earth?

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Well, it's funny, and I want readers to, I mean, listeners, I I'm such a writer, I'm always thinking of readers.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Readers, writers, talkers, walkers. We got it all.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

I want everybody to know this because I was a much more of an artsy person when I was younger, and my love of the outdoors has grown as I've gotten older. So I want people to know just because you're not in your 20s anymore, doesn't mean you can't start doing outdoorsy stuff. That said, one of my earliest outdoor activities as a little child was I wanted to be an entomologist and I was fascinated with bugs. So I was always out in the backyard catching bugs and observing bugs and reading the golden book of insects with my mom. My favorite with the praying mantis.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Okay. Now, were you the the class nerd in school, always looking and playing with bugs?

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Or um, I wouldn't say I was the nerd, but I was always a little bit offbeat.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

I always had different interests, and I was always pursuing my interests.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Okay. Now, when you were uh a child, where were you? Were you first off? I'm thinking New Orleans, Louisiana, there's big bugs down there. A lot of bugs.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Yeah, I encountered them later, but I grew up in San Diego.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Oh, okay. That's there's no bugs there, maybe just uh lots of bugs.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Yeah, you in the yard. You had to, but sometimes you have to go looking for them. Like I had a pet lizard for a long time that one of our cats brought in and and I rescued. And my mom and I spent many bonding moments going out and turning over rocks, trying to catch bugs to bring inside to feed to the lizard in his terrarium, live bugs, so he could hunt them in the terrarium.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

I love that. I love that. And I'm curious, as you were uh getting older, when did where did you uh type of a background training education did you have?

SPEAKER_00 4:10

A lot of writing. So I I am a writer and I have an undergraduate degree in journalism and a master's degree in fiction writing. So I've always been interested in other stuff too, but I'd say I was more in the humanities with writing and history and English and social sciences, and not nearly as strong in math or science. Although I wish I had applied myself more to those subjects when I was younger.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

Uh I I sometimes I wish I had, I just don't ever think I had the science bug in me because I always wanted to be a doctor, but uh that was I think I'm in addition to podcasting and coach, I'm a coach, leadership development coach, and uh that that fits very well. But sometimes we don't get to where we want to be until later in life. And uh but it's good that you you discovered that love of writing uh at an early age. Now you I know you've written a number of books, and again, we'll we'll visit a couple of those on your website, but what what was the kind of like the the journey to writing this book about sober travel and this this this need for this handbook? What what compelled you to want to write this kind of a book?

SPEAKER_00 5:22

So I had trouble with alcohol and other substances from a young age. And fortunately, I was able to quit really young. I quit I quit everything when I was only 20. I stopped drinking before I was even legal because I had a problem with it. And that has allowed me to have like a whole adult life to not be stuck in addiction. So I've been really, really fortunate that way to have a problem early, identify it early and get out of it. And a lot of that is thanks to I had a really nice family who helped me and supported me. But okay, so I had that background of being a longtime sober person, and then I've also been travel writing professionally for about 15 years. Okay, so those things kind of converge because so much of travel emphasizes alcohol because that's just the norm in our culture is to drink. People assume you drink unless you tell them otherwise. And so as I was uh traveling as a travel writer, which sometimes I was traveling on my own, sometimes I was on press trips with other groups, with groups of other travel writers and um PR kind of people, there was just such an emphasis on the drinking. And so people were always like, Oh, I'm a wine writer. Oh, I write about craft beer, and we were always going on these tours to these wineries and stuff where I'm like, la, I'm not gonna pay any attention because I don't drink stuff. But it was kind of a handicap for a long time as a travel writer. But then I just thought about turning it around. So I started announcing to people when they said they were a wine writer, I'd say, Well, I write about sober travel. I had no idea what that entailed. I just started saying that to try to switch it around so I wasn't at a disadvantage. So I've been writing more about travel through a sober lens for maybe the last eight or nine years, and then started to think about maybe there's a book in this about four years ago.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Okay. And how do you inform or help the individuals that are that are wanted to travel and explore and and I do get that alcohol is is heavily involved, but how do you help them navigate when they're in a social situation, they are in an exotic place, and I'm not gonna drink. And and and like for me, I just to share this, I I I'm really not a drinker. I love a beer, I like a glass of wine every once in a while, but I just don't drink, it's just not something I do. And so it's easier for me to have a glass of seltzer water, soda water with a lemon or lime in it, and I'm good. Nobody will ever know. But how do you help someone who perhaps they can't they have a similar story, a journey that you've had? They want to travel, they want to get out there. How do you help them? What advice would you have for them to navigate this little hurdle so that they can have a good time?

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Well, you make a really good point. There's lots of people who are kind of take it or leave it drinkers like you are. So this might not be something they've thought of because it just isn't part of their own experience. But for people who have had some kind of a drinking problem, especially in quit, then lots of times they're able to make a safe space at home. They have like a regular routine, they have people that they see in their everyday lives that support them being sober. And so they feel real safe there, but then they get scared at the idea of venturing beyond that because uh, for one thing, when you go somewhere else and nobody knows you, it's like, oh, I could be anyone, I could do different things. So I advise people who are who are going to travel for the first time without drinking to first of all have a good support system. And your support system starts at home. So have people at home that you're gonna check in with. So they know you're going here, they know you're having these thoughts about like, oh, what if people try to get me to drink? So it's it's important to check in with people back home that will support you. Um support people in person too where you're going, that is also an excellent thing, but that doesn't always happen.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

And how do you bridge that that little gap of uh I'm there, I mean solo traveling. I mean, I I'm I'm I'm a solo traveler uh when I'm not going to like an association meeting, but how do you bridge that gap when you are but you have a nice Moscow mule mug there? I that's not that's not lost on me.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Oh, isn't this funny? I just I didn't even know this was a mock-down mule when I first got it. I really like drinking out of copper, and I think it's so beautiful. And so I drink my water out of this all the time. And I had I didn't even know until I I guess I think I saw one somewhere. I'm like, oh, it's a special drink, it's a special cup for special drink.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

I I I think so that's cute. Now, okay, in all seriousness though, uh the reason I know that by the way, when I the the roommate and their boyfriend, they're they're into their whatever they're into. One of those is the Moscow mule, and she brings out the the mugs. Oh, isn't that cute? In any case, what's the what techniques or advice would you give for the traveler? They're maybe they're the solo traveler, they don't have that support system with them on site. What advice would you give to them for helping to navigate, which in my mind it's an easy subject. Thank you, but I I I really don't drink. However, how what advice would you give to someone who perhaps hasn't been able to articulate and feel comfortable saying I don't drink?

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Practice it ahead of time. There are a lot of ways to say it, and you don't owe anybody an explanation unless you feel like giving them. You can just say, no, no, thank you. If you feel like you really have to give an excuse, you can think of some ahead of time. And it can be just something like, oh, it doesn't make me feel very good, or I have an early morning, or it doesn't lots of times it doesn't respond well with them, it doesn't interact well with the medication. I mean, you can tell them the truth or you can make something on. It doesn't really matter just to keep yourself safe here. Or you could say, no, I'm driving. There's a lot of and you again, you don't have to give them any explanation, but if it's gonna make you feel more comfortable to give them a short one, just make it short. Don't start telling them your life story.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Sure. And I I love the fact that you don't owe anybody an explanation. It could be thank you very much, but I'm gonna pass this evening or tomorrow or for this trip, etc. What when you are at a an event, is that any different for you? And the reason I ask is as a professional writer, travel writer, you probably get to go to a lot of like professional events where it's networking, there's liquor is everywhere. Well, are there any different kinds of challenges there versus say you're just traveling from you're in Rome or Bangkok or Sydney and there's liquor and you're saying no, versus say at this organized big event. How is that any different?

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Well, some of it is mental because um sometimes I think people care more about whether I drink or not than they really do. And I'll start to get this resentment like, oh, everybody else is friends because they're drinking. Everybody else is making this deal because they're drinking. And that's on me. I have to kind of shift my head around and be like, they're doing their thing, I'm doing mine. Maybe we're gonna be friends, maybe we're not, but I don't have to, I don't have to drink just because they are. And I'm as I become more public about being sober because I'm doing this work and I'm telling people I've been sober travel, I've met so many people who don't drink. And some of them are in recovery, but a lot of them have other reasons they don't drink. And some of them are at those professional meetings with me. And it's really nice when I identify them. And I know there's some other people around who also are drinking. But before I started developing this area of work, I didn't realize that. And I did feel kind of sometimes it was easy to get in this kind of pattern of, oh, feeling sorry for my oh, for me, I'm different because of this or that. And again, that's kind of an artificial mindset. It's not usually the truth. And if someone really does care that I'm not drinking, it's usually because they're wondering about their own drinking. It doesn't really reflect on me.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

I'm curious, and I certainly do not know the answer to this. And there's there's a lot of cultures where being invited into a home is a part is is a part of their their upbringing, their DNA. And do you ever find or have you ever crossed a circumstance where you were invited into a home and say, you know, food was being served, you're breaking bread, some type of alcohol, whatever it was was being offered. How do you say no in those instances instances when uh a cultural fall paw is a possibility?

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Yeah, this is kind of a nightmare for me because even worse in these situations than not drinking is that I'm also vegan. So that is like my nightmare. And it's and sometimes I plan around that. Like there's places I'm not gonna go or I'm not gonna do a home stay because I know I'm gonna offend people. So I kind of look into that. And sometimes if you really think you're gonna be in that situation, try not to get into it. And if you are with its alcohol, I mean, for especially for people who have had a problem with it, that's like life or death. I mean, I have I have had some shy before with milk in it because someone offered it to me. And I'm like vegan, I it's a preference, it's not gonna kill me. But the alcohol, I'm definitely gonna draw the line and I'm gonna say, um, I might just say I have an allergy, which is kind of true in a way. Like if you, if you, if the drinking produces really bad behavior in you, you have like a history of that happening. I mean, we can call that an allergy. It's not it's not an outright lie, but I would probably say something like that. Like, I really can't drink. Or you can also say it's your religion, because people respect that lots of times. And there are religions that discourage or forbid drinking. Not that everybody always obeys it, but there are religions. So you could say one of those things. You could say you have an allergy, you could say you have a medical interaction, you could say you have that your religion forbids it.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Okay. And I mean, you're in in Portland now, it's you're fairly close to some good wine country. And do you do you ever get invited or uh have been invited with the friends? Hey, we're going out to the vineyards and come on with us. There's a lot to see and do, and hopefully eat. I d I never say no to food unless it's something incredibly exotic. Like that's not, I don't want anything to do with it. But if if I'm traveling, say to with my friends and family, obviously I have my support system, but we're in a place that a vineyard I can't help but want to smell the aroma, taste, take a sip. How do we handle that type of situation?

SPEAKER_00 16:39

It really depends on what kind of non-drinker you are. So if you're a non-drinker because you just don't like alcohol, or maybe it's religious or medical interaction and you're not going to feel overly tempted, just go drink something else. All the wineries have really good food. Vineyards are beautiful. So sure, go with them. If you're someone who's in recovery, I would only go if I felt really secure. If I was newly in recovery, I'd be like, ah, give it a pass. I'll do something else with you another day. You have to sort of figure out what's for me and what's not for me. I recently went to an event. It was a dry January event at a local winery, um, or like an hour away from me in the Willamette Valley. It was very interesting. It was like a different sort of thing for me. And they had all these de-alcoholized wines. It was very odd. But I participated, it was kind of interesting. Um, and I think more wineries are making their own de-alcoholized wines now. So I would call ahead if I was gonna go and make sure there was something for me. And some of them will even let you bring your own drink if you're a non-drinker who's going with a group of people wine tasting. That sounds a little weird, but if you really want to go and participate, but again, if you're feeling kind of iffy and you're in recovery, just skip it.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Okay. So I've got one last question, and then I'd love to take us to the website just to the so we can learn more about your work. And I know my listeners would appreciate that as well. If I'm out traveling, exotic location, alcohol is there, and maybe I I'm feeling like I just I'm getting I'm in the moment with my friends, these new acquaintances, and I'd have that sip. Is that the worst thing that can happen? Is this a sip or is there something do I really need to be attuned to? Like, I just did something I know I shouldn't have done.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

If you're in recovery, I would say do not take that sip. And if you do, stop. If you're just someone who doesn't, I mean, I don't know what to say. If you're if it's your religion, that's on you, or if you have a medication interaction. But if you consider yourself in recovery, yeah, leave before that happens. If you're feeling like it's too slippery, then just call it a day. But don't I I would advise you not to take that sip. And if you somehow do, try to stop yourself. Don't just say, oh, screw it, because that's sometimes happens. There's something called the abstinence violation effect. And it's if you if you've been like say you've been sober for 10 years, and then you take a sip, you're like, oh, I just ruined my 10 years, I might as well just get drunk. That's not gonna serve you when I'm so if you do take a sip, like it's there have been a couple of times I've accidentally taken a sip. One time I was served, I I ordered uh like a sparkling apple juice and they gave me a hard cider instead. And I took a sip and I was like, and I I just sort of like backwashed it in the glass. I was with some other travel writers and I said, Oh my god, I think that was a hard cider. And what do they do? They just start passing it around, being like, Oh yeah, it is. And I'm thinking, one, I just accidentally sipped something alcohol, and two, now they're all drinking my backwash. So unfortunately, I was just able to stop and I and I just I said, Forget, don't even bring me the spit to the apple juice. I'm just gonna drink water. I can see this is water, I can smell this is water. Yeah, so it's gotta rain it in if you screw up.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Okay, and yeah, and give yourself a little grace and like you, mistake, and I'm aware of it now. All right, so I would love to, Teresa, if you're okay, is just let's take a tour of the website because I want to I want to talk more about the book and how it's been organized, but I really want to show my listeners some of the great work that you're doing as well. Okay, all right. Now, hopefully, technology works. That's always a pleasure to do it.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

I don't think I'm a writer, but I'm not a pro website designer. So I have a pretty rudimentary website that I do myself. It's not it's not superficially.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

It's pretty good. So Veg Travel and Fitness, and we're at Teresa Bergen.com. First off, where should we go to find the book? Let's go take a look. Books by Teresa.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Yeah, that's I'm I'm peering at it here. Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Okay. Go there first. Silver travel handbook. And I love the photo. Is this your photo?

SPEAKER_00 21:05

No, my publisher put that on. It's really pretty, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

I'm a big water person, so it's the kind of thing I like.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

And you're near water too, so it's uh not too bad. So, how is this book organized and what will the reader expect when they open this up?

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Well, the primary audience is people in recovery, and then the secondary audience is all non-drinkers. So there's some stuff that speaks especially to people in recovery, and then there's some more general stuff for what to do if you're a non-drinker and you're doing different kinds of stuff. So I have it right here, and let me just look at the table of contents. So we have we talk about what is sober travel and who are these sober travelers. And then there's a lot of uh tips for various kinds of events you might find yourself in and how to avoid drinking at them. And then there's also lots of stuff about different places you might. Go where alcohol isn't the center or different kinds of activities you might want to do instead of drinking.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

I'm gonna know a lot of outdoorsy stuff because that is one of uh my favorite things is if you do outdoorsy stuff, um, sometimes there's alcohol involved, but it's not usually the center of it, especially if you're doing something like swimming or snorkeling or diving. Very hard to drink while you're scuba diving.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Exactly. There was a um the kayaking is coming to mind. I I was doing a podcast series with Gulf Shores and Orange Beach tourism a couple years ago. And I think at Orange Beach had a kayak tour they would take guest on, and you would take your paper and uh well no, I take the back. They gave you everything you needed. It was basically watercoloring in a kayak out on the water, okay, in one of the inlets. And I would, as you were sharing that, I'm thinking, uh, yeah, you kayaking definitely, I know for me, definitely don't want to have a glass of anything, maybe with a water bottle. But I was once in a kayak and it was a double kayak, and the woman behind me was was steering. I was up front, and and she was with the paddle, I was the muscle, and she wanted to hand me her camera and say, Would you take a picture? And I said, Nope, I'm not taking your camera while I am in a kayak. Because I don't want to be the cause of an accident or kayak is at the bottom of the of the inlet. So uh, but certainly that with uh with uh any type of uh beverage, uh just you want to stay safe. Well, very nice. And some of your other work that's here, what do we have? Historic cemeteries.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Look at the big cemetery buff. And I wrote that with my friend Heidi during the pandemic because we figured it was pretty safe to be in cemeteries where uh everybody was already dead.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

There you go. I love it, I love it. Transcribing oral history.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

That's a whole different branch of my life. That's I also work in oral history, doesn't have any good battle. But here'll be the one is more relevant, probably, to your listeners because this uh this book has a hundred easy outdoor things to do around the Portland area.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Oh, I love it. That's a very big popular genre. There's a hundred things to do somewhere before you die. That's what the series is called. But I like that.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Is also the one I'm working on right now, is totally playing off that, and it's called 100 Places to Visit Sober.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Very nice. Very nice. And you're also uh a yogi, yeah, yoga teacher.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

That was I wrote that as tried to be kind of a basic intro to yoga philosophy. And I I was teaching a lot in gyms at the time, and people wanted the flexibility, the de-stressing, and a little the philosophy to improve their lives, but it wasn't like they wanted it wasn't like they wanted to learn Sanskrit or something. So I tried to just sort of distill it down to easy to understand stuff.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Very nice, very nice. And how has the reaction been to the to the uh sober travel handbook?

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Oh, well, right now I'm I'm having a good time. I've been doing a book tour going to sober bars. So I don't know if you're familiar with sober bars, but they've been popping up around the country and in some other countries too. So these are gathering places that feature non-alcoholic drinks and they're for people who want to hang out without drinking. And they may or may not be people who don't drink at all. Maybe they just want um some quiet time with friends and not in a drunken bar, or maybe either people that are pregnant, or also maybe a first date and they don't want to be getting drunk, they want to get to know each other, plus people who don't drink. So I've been going to some different sober bars and doing events. I was in San Diego last week and I did a short talk about my book, and then we also did a travel trivia contest, which was really fun.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Oh, very nice. I mean, that those types of events that would interest me just to be in a bar and know I didn't have to have to drink. So a little so we got the the outdoor uh and fitness, and I'm gonna talk a little bit about the vegan. So so where did I see? Oh, yeah, there you go. Kayak, Chicago, and the Chicago River.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

That was so cool because Chicago is known for its architecture, right? And it all springs up around the river. So it's fun. I've picked an architectural boat tour, too, which is which is great, but it's so fun to be on a kayak. You're just like down there in the water and you're looking up at these massive skyscrapers. Really recommended. I had a I had a kayak guy named Will, Will Nelson, and he was fantastic. He told me all about the history of Chicago, and he knew all about the nature too.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Oh, very good. The I mean, and that river, I lived in Chicago like almost almost half my life. It at one point it was half my life, but that river has gone through a a huge change since the early 90s of getting it cleaned up and making that whole wall, all the river accessible and just taking advantage of being actually being on it. And I do recall seeing kayakers, uh, but when those big tour boats go by, they they cause the wake. I don't know if I want to be there at that point.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

Well, it's exciting, they go fast, yeah. And then they go really fast. You feel it, and you have to just can't kind of hug the hug the edge of the river so you don't get run over.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Sure. Now, as a sober traveler, when you are out either for your own pleasure or producing your own content, or even I guess producing content for a client, where are some of the places you have enjoyed visiting the most?

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Oh, well, as far as the sober part, uh, a lot of outdoorsy places. So, like I got a chance to go to raft the Grand Canyon a couple of years ago. My husband got to come too, and it was fabulous. We went, I think it was 180 miles of the Colorado River in a week. So there were a few people that brought some beer along, but when you're getting up at 5:30 in the morning and rafting all day, it's not like you want to be really drunk. So it was pretty minimal drinking and was all about the nature and the rafting and the family fun. So that was one, and then also I've enjoyed going places where there's just not a lot of alcohol. Like I had a really good time when I went to Jordan and I got to see the the Wadi Rum Desert and the famous city of Petra and stuff like that. That was really cool, and hardly anybody drinks in Jordan because it's mostly Muslim.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Right, right. Uh I'm noticing here the kayaking the Ottawa River. I I do a podcast with a gentleman. We do like two episodes a month. He's an expert in a uh technology solutions or international standards, but he goes ice skating with his wife on on the on the Ottawa River. Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

That's what they do, and that's what they do in the winter. I was just there last year, uh, when was it? It was either August or September, and you could still kayak and you could still swim. So they have this fabulous like river swimming pool that you can go in in the summer. It's like they have floating piers that mark off a rectangle, but it's really part of the river. It's kind of trippy because you you sort of feel like you're in a pool, but there could be fish too.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

It's really nice. Yeah, I love the Ottawa River. That's a fun place to visit.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Definitely. Well, there's there's actually good coffee shops up there. That's my I would say my uh I wouldn't call it a weakness, I call it a passion. I love coffee.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

But me, no, no, I drink a lot of good coffee.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Yes, but I'm in Fortnite.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

We have to drink coffee here.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Yeah, and life is too short to drink bad coffee.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

So for sure.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

Now, I just noticed this you were mentioned earlier about being a vegan. So new Danner N45 vegan hiking boots. So let me just go ahead and click on that. So tell us about a little bit more about the vegan lifestyle.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

So I've just been an animal lover my whole life, and I don't like to, when I was about 12, I realized I didn't want to eat animals. So I've been vegetarian or vegan for my whole adult life and a lot of my childhood too. So I try not to uh I try not to buy meat, although I have to say I am a slave to my cat, and so I still support the meat industry that way, which I wish I didn't. I'm hoping that there'll be a time when they have the lab-grown meat that they can make pet food and it's cheap enough that I can give them that. So I do my best not to contribute to the meat industry, but like I say, I have a weakness for my cat, and so I am far, far, far from perfect.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

Okay. Now, my the roommate and her boyfriend, they they're they've I think the cat has trained them very well, but they get little pieces of shrimp cut up every day. And if she doesn't have her shrimp, she starts crying by her dish. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Yeah, the cat deserved the best. My cat, he had a he had a blockage, a urinary blockage a year or so ago. So now he's on a special diet, but he had to give him, yeah, I would have got him all the shrimp and stuff back then. But now he has to eat a special diet.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Okay. Now, as far as your artwork is concerned, what's your passion there in terms of what you've produced? Is it for my is it for the art shows? Is for for sale in stores and museums, or just a personal personal passion?

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Oh, yeah, I paint, uh, I paint and I make some cards and I sell them in a couple local stores. It's a hobby. I sell a little bit, not a huge amount, but I mostly paint animal portraits. So I pay paint people's pets mostly.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Okay, very good. Now, before we head back uh to just you and I chatting, yeah, is that so that's one of your photos or your your pieces of artwork is the cats.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

Yeah, a lot of cats.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

All right. My uh my uh roommate and a boyfriend are gonna love this episode when I share it with them. I saw I'll say I met this really wonderful cat lady, and she was also an author, but an artist and uh fitness expert. Uh, anywhere else on the website you'd like us to visit before we head back?

SPEAKER_00 32:09

Oh, let's see. We're already looked at outdoors books. Oh, look at paddling in every state, real quick. That kind of fun. So that's a quest I've been on. I'm I'm trying to paddle in every US state and Canadian province. And I am not like some super paddling woman. I'll just go out for a couple hours at a time. And this isn't I like kayaking and paddleboarding because they're pretty accessible for most people with a moderate level of fitness, like to just get out there and paddle just for an hour or two. I'm not talking about going on some giant camping trip where you paddle for a week. So this is just something I took up not until I was, I guess, in my 40s. Um I'd just been um putting just a little blurb about each place. I I'd get up in a different state. Oh, and that's some of my sub pups. I love taking pictures of dogs on paddleboards. I have a little color.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

And these are just strangers. I'm like, can I photograph you with your dogs?

SPEAKER_01 33:04

Very cool. I would love to try the stand-up paddle board, but it'd have to be wide enough, so I would because once I start the shake, like, oh. So I have a uh an outdoor uh journalist colleague of mine who is an accomplished writer, and she wrote a book called So Said the River. It's about the Colorado River and her love affair with it. But she's also she took she and her mom took a trip to try to paddle down the Colorado River from. I can't remember exactly where the starting point was, but uh that was let's just say quite the adventure. But it's just it's just a wonderful way to explore. I know we're the Outdoor Writers Association of America, we're going up to Madison in August, and I know there will be some excursions. I'm sure one of them is gonna be out on the water, the lakes that are around Madison, probably sailing.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

I'm just looking at the website today, and there's several different excursions that are gonna be water, I think. It looked like there was one even by Milwaukee that had said they were gonna dive a shipwreck in the lake.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Yeah, it's possible. There is a there's a national marine sanctuary uh just north of Milwaukee, and there are shipwrecks all along that area.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

I bet it's so cold though. I was looking at that, I'm thinking I want to do that, but I don't want to freeze.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Yeah, that well, yeah, it's you probably have a good uh wetsuit going, but it's kind of been a while since I've done that. Scuba, that looks like fun. See, that looks like a nice stable kayak right there.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

Oh, yeah, those are easy. Although there were waves because we were in La Jolla in California. That's my friend Claire Marie. When I go to San Diego, she's my kayaking buddy.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

Okay, so now you have me curious here. Hang on. Let's see. There's Chicago. See, I knew that. See, I haven't lost my Chicago roots. All right, Michigan, that's where I grew up. Montana. Okay, I have to check this out. Have you been to Nevada?

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Okay, this is just a place where there's a lot of gaps. There's like, yeah, just put all the states in as my. I've probably only been to about a third of them so far, and then maybe half the Canadian provinces.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

Okay. Well, you're yeah, I mean, like Nevada's like right around the block from you. Jeez, come on. Down in Reno or someplace like that. So you could do the Colorado River above the above the Hoover Dam, you'd be in Nevada. Okay. All right. Just saying, just saying, no, I'm not pressuring you here, Teresa. Yeah. All right. All right. Well, this is very cool. And uh, I I just think this is wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Thanks. Yeah, it's a fun, it's a fun quest. You can see it's gonna take me a while to get to all those other states. I had several planned, and then that stupid pandemic came along. I had like four states I was gonna hit that year.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

That darn pandemic. Look at that.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Gator from a canoe or coyote.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

Oh boy. Yeah, I was in uh Costa Rica years ago when I changed my career from technology to coaching, and big crocodiles. And I think I don't want to be anywhere in the water near a crocodile or an alligator for that matter.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

Oh, there were so many alligators there that was that see that guy you just went by, that young guy on the back of the kayak. We go down a minute. There he is, and he was Mike. Um so he was like a local young guy, very quiet. And when we get in, I said, Should I worry about the alligators here? He's like, Oh no, they won't bother you. They just see you and go away. So we're paddling along. He's very quiet, and there's this giant alligator that just stays with us. And after a while, he goes, Hmm, that's very unusual. And I'm like, Oh god.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

So he's probably thinking fresh meat dinner.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

That's right, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

Well, actually, like an or a nice grass-fed Oregon flavor.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

There you go. There you go. Grass-fed, it's the best. The SS Legacy. Well, it looks like you're having fun and you're having experiences. So I was with that's just where I kayaked was with Uncruise Adventures.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

Oh, Uncruise is so great. So did you flip your kayak in the in the freezing water?

SPEAKER_01 37:13

No, uh this was in the warm water of uh a river in Tennessee.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

Which better.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

I made it into and out of a kayak twice when I was up with on cruise adventures.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

Very good. Well, they're they are they can be kind of unstable getting in or out. So I'm not proud. If I'm getting on into one or out of one on a dock, I just ask, I just asked somebody to hold on to it for me and I hold on to them. There's there's no there's no there's no point in being heroic and doing it by yourself and following.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

Yeah, there's doesn't even matter if you're in a boat. If somebody offers you a helping hand, you take it. That's what I that's what I always say.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

Yeah, I usually like if I'm getting in or out of a boat, even if I don't need it. If someone offers me their hand, I just take it. Because what you're gonna say, no, I don't need it. That's probably when you're gonna fall.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

Yes. Well, that's what I loved about Uncruises when you were going into and out of a skiff or the kayak, you always had helping hands. So I love it.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

Yeah, they're a great company. I love them. I've been with them a couple of times.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

All right, I am gonna stop sharing and hopefully we will be back together. The Miracle of Technology. Well, thank you so much for the uh tour of the website. It's always nice to show our listeners uh the up close and personal with the passions that our our guests have. Before we head out today, I am curious as you kind of look back on your career and this those early years hunting for bugs underneath rocks in the in the in the uh back in the backyard to now creating these books uh uh uh on the travel handbook and sober travel handbook. And also creating your art and doing your travels. What's been your aha moment that like wow, you look back, you say, Wow, I get to do this.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

I don't think there's really been one. I think I have them all the time. What's been exciting to me is that I continue to develop and discover new interests. And part of that is is not drinking. It gives me more time and more focus. And I've just kind of learned to sort of, I guess, pay more attention to maybe what I what I want that I when I have a new interest. Like for example, um, I never had any interest in scuba diving. And then about three or four years ago, I was snorkeling and I realized I kept diving down deeper and looking at stuff from up close, and all of a sudden it's like, oh my God, I do want to be under the water. So it was for my 56th birthday, I decided I will get scuba certified. That will be my gift to myself. So it's like your life is just this evolving work. And sometimes we can think this is the kind of person I am, this is what I do, this is what I'm interested in. But if you open yourself up a little bit, you may discover something else you like. And you also may discover you don't like something, and that's okay too. Like I tried to surf one time. I mean, I'm sure it takes more than one time to be good, but it really did not go all that well. So I like I like to keep um giving myself permission to try new things and to like them or not like them or be like, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

Okay, very good. I'll appreciate you sharing that. Do you have any final advice or insight that you could share with our listeners before we head out today about again, just get out there, enjoy life, enjoy the experiences, and yes, you can do this alcohol-free.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Well, one thing okay, I look back to when people back back in the olden days, before so much technology, people um didn't have all this gear, they didn't have all this know-how, they didn't have all YouTube, and they didn't constantly have a picture of people doing things really, really well. So, like they'd have a sing-along, and maybe everybody didn't have the greatest voice, or they play some sport together, and maybe everybody wasn't a great player or didn't have high-tech gear. I think we need to give ourselves permission to do things a little bit, not not. I've heard so many people say, like, oh, I tried that, but I wasn't good at it, so I never did it. I might have said that about surfing, but I might give it another try. But something, something that's like accessible to you. If you're not good at it the first time, but you kind of like it, that's okay. You don't have to be really great at everything. Like I swim with a group of people. We do open water swimming in the summer. Decent swimmer. Most of the people are faster than me. I just wear fins to keep up. It's not like I'm gonna say, oh, I'm not as fast as them. I'm just gonna give up because I'm not as good a swimmer. It's like for the enjoyment of it, of being with this group, of being outside, and doing something physical. You don't have to be the best at something to enjoy it. So that's what I would tell people.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

I love it. I love it. Thank you for sharing that. Now, before we head out, I know we are definitely going to uh provide a link back to your website, teresabergen.com. I know, and I did notice on the website you had a number of social sites to send our listeners to. Where else should we uh put backlinks to in our show notes?

SPEAKER_00 42:15

Oh, maybe my maybe my publisher if they're interested in getting the sober travel book.

SPEAKER_02 42:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Microcosal publishing, an independent publisher out of Portland, Oregon. And if anybody is interested and wants to follow me on Instagram or Facebook or LinkedIn, kind of Okay.

SPEAKER_01 42:31

Very good. We'll provide those backlinks and you'll send me the the URL for your publisher, and we'll have those in our show notes. Teresa, it's been a pleasure to have you on the podcast. I'm glad we met through PodMatch. I I should have mentioned that earlier when we did the uh introduction. It's a great site to to find some really cool guests, and I'm so glad we crossed paths with each other and finally we're able to get a date set. So thank you so much for joining me today.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Thank you, Howard. It's been really fun talking with you.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Excellent. Listen, stay in the line. We're gonna do a very quick close, and then you and I can have a final chat.

unknown 43:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

All right, folks. We have just been chatting with Teresa Bergen. She is a travel writer, outdoor enthusiast, author, vegan, yoga instructor, and just the of the world is definitely her oyster. She is definitely the uh an accomplished author, and her latest book, Sober Travel Handbook, Navigating the World Alcohol Free, is a must read. If either yourself or someone in your life would benefit from uh traveling sober free andor alcohol free for that matter. We're going to provide all the backlinks uh of uh Teresa's work at her website, social sites in our show notes, as well as her publisher's website as well. As for us, you can find this episode up on our website at outdooradventure. Series.com. We're also on LinkedIn and Facebook on the Outdoor Adventure Series. Just do a quick search. The video of this episode, which will include navigating Teresa's website, will be up on our YouTube channel. And of course, you can listen to this episode wherever you get your podcast from. Until next time, wherever you are, whatever you're doing, go out there and have a fantastic day. And we look forward to having you join us on a future episode of the Outdoor Adventure Series podcast. Take care now.