LDS Podcast "Latter-Day Lights" - Inspirational LDS Stories

Autism in Christ's Church: Faith on the Spectrum: Liberty Kepford & Robert Johnson's Story - Latter-Day Lights

• Scott Brandley

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How can small acts of understanding make a big difference in someone’s spiritual journey?

In this week’s episode of Latter-day Lights, Scott Brandley sits down with father-daughter duo — Robert Johnson and Liberty Kepford — to share the inspiration behind their book, “Autism in Christ’s Church.” Drawing from their extensive experience working with, interviewing, and studying the behaviors of individuals on the spectrum, they explore the unique challenges many families face when trying to participate fully in Church life, as well as the powerful faith that can grow through broadening accessibility for people with disabilities.

Through heartfelt stories and practical insights, Robert and Liberty discuss how greater awareness, empathy, and simple accommodations can transform the Church experience for individuals with autism. From supportive ward members and disability specialists, to tailored opportunities for service and missions, this conversation highlights the incredible gifts individuals with autism bring to their communities — and how small acts of understanding can make an eternal difference.

*** Please SHARE Liberty & Robert's story and help us spread hope and light to others. ***

To WATCH this episode on YouTube, visit: https://youtu.be/kzgCXod2Dh8

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To READ Liberty & Robert’s book, “Autism in Christ’s Church,” visit: https://a.co/d/0eHmHVio

To READ Scott’s new book “Faith to Stay” for free, visit: https://www.faithtostay.com/

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“Faith to Stay” by Scott Brandley

Scott Brandley

Hey there, as a Latter Day Lights listener, I want to give you a very special gift today. My brand new book, Faith to Stay. This book is filled with inspiring stories, powerful discoveries, and even fresh insights to help strengthen your faith during the storms of life. So if you're looking to be inspired, uplifted, and spiritually recharged, just visit faith2.com. Now, let's get back to the show. Hey everyone, I'm Scott Brandley. Every member of the church has a story to share, one that can instill faith, invite growth, and inspire others. On today's episode, we're going to hear what a father and daughter learned from their experiences of 40 individuals with autism and their families about faith, perseverance, and God's love. Welcome to Latter Day Lights.

Robert Johnson

Welcome. We're glad to be here.

Scott Brandley

Awesome. So we usually kick off the episode with telling a little bit of who you guys are and some background. You told me some really cool news, Robert, before we got on. Maybe start with that and kind of tell people your exciting news.

Robert Johnson

Yes, my wife, Mary Ann, and I um have a mission called the Kamasi Ghana Mission. Today we spoke in church and um had a family gathering. And next Monday we go into the MTC and start our service. We'll be in the MTC for a week and then fly out to Kamasi. We're very excited.

Scott Brandley

Are you nervous?

Robert Johnson

Yeah. Um we are. It's it's more of what we're leaving behind, but we are very excited to be missionaries. It's gonna be great. Our oldest son uh served in Ghana, and so we have a little bit of an idea of what it's like. Um, and we're just super excited. We met with our mission president, and we're we're ready.

Liberty & Robert in a nutshell

Scott Brandley

That's awesome. So tell me a little bit about you and your family, and maybe Liberty tell us a little bit about you as well.

Robert Johnson

Um we live in I my wife and I live in Star Valley, Nevada. Um, we have six children. Liberty is one of our children, and I was a high school special education teacher for 30 years. I'm a board certified behavior analyst. Um, I've been doing that for about 15 years, and I own um an ABA company. Um and I've served in the church and love, I'm very, very passionate about this subject.

Liberty Kepford

And I live in Tallahassee, Florida. I'm a new mom. I have a nine-month-old little boy, and I work from home, writing curriculum. Um, my husband's going to Florida State for his PhD. That's why we're down there.

Scott Brandley

And so how are you together today? You came to your dad's farewell, your mom and dad's farewell?

Liberty Kepford

Yeah, I came to say goodbye to them and came for Christmas.

Robert Johnson

Yes, and one of our greatest joys is our grandchildren. And so we're so glad. Little Parley's here.

Scott Brandley

Yeah, that's fun. I mean, next time you see your little grand grandbaby be almost three.

6-month missions

Robert Johnson

Well, we are we are just serving a six-month mission. We have a daughter that is on a mission in Orlando, Florida, and I just retired and we thought it would be great to go serve for a little while and then be back for her before she gets off her mission. So that my wife, we wanted to have her have a home to come home to.

Scott Brandley

That's cool. I didn't know you could do a six-month mission. How did I tell me more about that? That's interesting.

Robert Johnson

It's it's fabulous. You if you serve for less than 18 months, you have to pay for your own travel, but that's okay. Um, and they were very excited. They uh um honored our our dates, and um, we we just are they were excited to have us. I guess uh the mission that we're going to um could use a lot more couples, and um when we visited before, they they they let us know just how much we were going to be needed, and and so we we think we can do some good in in just six months and then we'll come back.

Scott Brandley

That is cool. I did not know that that was an option. That is awesome. That like gives you a ton of flexibility, like for ex in your particular case, right? Like you have this window of time, you could go and do something. Maybe you don't have a year or two, 18 months, two years, but you could go for six months, right?

Robert Johnson

And we still have uh our business that's going well, and so we hope that we can we can go again pretty soon. Um, you know, maybe for six months or maybe for two years. We'll just see how that works. Very cool.

Scott Brandley

Well, and it's so super exciting having an a new little baby. Nine months, that's perfect. They're not quite getting into everything yet, they can just kind of sit there and roll around on the crowd.

Liberty Kepford

He's amazing. I love being his mom, so beautiful.

Scott Brandley

Yeah, awesome. Well, really excited to hear about your guys' story today. Um, this is something that probably a lot of people can relate to, autism um and autism in the church. I mean, that's it's it's uh it's it'd be interesting to hear how you brought all this together. So why don't I turn the time over to you guys and tell us where your story begins?

Liberty & Robert write a book for autism awareness in the Church

Robert Johnson

Well, I'll start. Uh I I'm a behavior analyst and I work primarily with individuals with autism, and I have for many, many years. And I just noticed that families that had a child with autism had special struggles. Um and one of the biggest struggles they had was attending church. Um, the their children would have challenging behavior, they would have unique behaviors, um, their family would have different stresses, um, they would might feel embarrassed, they didn't know how to handle things, and so a lot of times they would stop going to church. And that really alarmed me. I've been working with these individuals most of my life, and they they can love the Lord and get a testimony just as well as any other child, um, but they had to have special supports. Uh, and so as I would work with these individuals, they also often felt very alone and they didn't know exactly where to turn to. Um, and I thought that that I would write this book providing stories with some supports and some different ideas along with it to encourage them and to give them the hope that they they can be just as successful, that they have a place in God's church, and that they can that that their children can have powerful testimonies um and experiences with their father in heaven. So that was kind of our inspiration.

Liberty Kepford

And that's where I came in, is he is running a business and doing all sorts of things. And so I had a bit more time, and so I interviewed a lot of families with people with autism, and kind of his inspiration started with these kids he was working with, but I interviewed families and individuals of all ages and different experiences with autism. I ended up talking with 40 different people with autism, and I wrote their stories down after interviewing them. And I can show you our book here. How then I put their stories together. How the book is structured is the stories are kind of in age order, and I have the family story, and then I have insights from my dad about more behavior analyst side, some autism insights, and also some insights from the church. And the reason we wanted to keep it mostly their stories in the book is that autism can look really different for different people, and also testimony and conversion is different for different people, and so we didn't want it to feel like a how-to guide of being in the church of autism because that's not what it is. Um, but we want it to help people with autism to feel belonging and seen and hope from these stories. We also want to give families and wards and ward leaders ideas of how to support people in their families and their congregations with autism and just giving them insights into what it could look like for people.

Scott Brandley

I think that's really valuable. I know that my I mean my wife's been a primary teacher for over 20 years and she's had some challenging kids that I'm sure we're on the spectrum on some level. Uh that probably would have been a helpful resource for sure.

Liberty Kepford

And that's one thing that I've been surprised with in writing this book. I've seen just how common it is for people with autism to be in the church. Every ward I've ever been in has had people with autism. And so it's opened my eyes to how I can support them better as a ward member and how we can help.

Scott Brandley

And I think everyone what's the name of the book?

Liberty Kepford

Oh, Autism in Christ Church.

Scott Brandley

Okay.

Robert Johnson

I was just gonna say, even every family, um, every grandparent has they know one of their family members usually is on the spectrum, and they are very appreciative. They want to know how they can help, what they can do. Um, and when you have knowledge and you have inspiring stories, it really empowers you to be more proactive, to be able to give support and help in in wonderful ways that make a big difference for these wonderful, wonderful families and children with autism.

Scott Brandley

Yeah, well, and like you said earlier, Robert, you know, I a lot of people stop coming because they feel like they're being a burden on the church, on the ward, and it's easier just to not bring their kids to primary, right? And that's that's sad because I don't think other people feel that way. And yes, it it can be challenging, but I don't think anybody doesn't want them there, and so if and I'm sure you've kind of seen that and and come up with some maybe some different ideas or tips that can help some of these families.

Encouraging people on the spectrum to go to Church

Robert Johnson

We can at least tell you what has been successful for a lot of these individuals in our book, um, once worked. And and you're right, they feel embarrassed, you know, they don't want to have their child, you know, running down the aisle or or making a scene in primary and having somebody talk to them. Um but also on the ward side, a lot of time ward leaders, ward members just don't know what to do. How can they help? They it without a little bit of understanding, they they don't know how to to lend a hand. Um, and often that's all it takes is is a few individuals that just take an interest that kind of um start to understand that child and help out, and all of a sudden things work really, really well. Um, and wonderful things happen.

Liberty Kepford

And that was a common theme as I was talking with people, is it made such a big difference when their ward was supportive and trying to help, versus some people had bad experiences where their ward wasn't supportive and would be judgmental and they'd feel that. And I had parents share with me that it wasn't always the people that they would expect. Like it isn't always people who have any special knowledge or training in this, but just anyone who is willing to put themselves out there and try. Um, a mom told me about her daughter, she was nine or 10, older primary, and she was nonverbal with autism. And her mom had worried about her a lot in church because she would just go with her daughter a lot through primary and nursery, but she felt like her daughter wasn't connecting with the ward and with the church, and she wanted her to have those experiences, but people didn't really know how to facilitate that. But she said just recently in her ward, people were starting to, they would come up to her daughter and she would communicate as best she could and they could have these little moments together. And that made such a huge difference to that family, just that someone would be willing to try.

Scott Brandley

Yeah. And a lot of times it takes them reaching out a little bit, getting out of their comfort zone to get to know that that person, right? Um, because it's sometimes, especially if they're nonverbal, um, it's you don't exactly know how to reach out, right? You don't because it's you're just not used to that in normal life. Um, we take care of a nonverbal child. Um, we help out a lady that that's a relative, and we take care of her son on a regular basis, and he's nonverbal with autism. And it's it's a challenge. Um, and people come and talk to him, and he he just kind of does gibberish back and they don't know how to take it, right? So it it does kind of get a little awkward, especially as he's getting older, they'll start to try to have a conversation, and but he doesn't respond like a normal response. And so then that kind of puts him in an awkward position. But once they get to know him and they understand that he's got that um, that he's nonverbal, then they almost start to become endearing, it becomes endearing, and like they they can start to build a relationship, but it's it's weird at first.

Robert Johnson

It is, and and like you say, that initial effort um as you get to know that child. And as a behavior analyst from my side, like um a lot of individuals that are on the spectrum, they love routine. They love they if you teach them a specific pattern, um, for example, how to introduce yourself or to say hi or to have small talk, they will follow that pattern pretty, pretty well. And a lot of times the patterns that they learn are are meant for school uh uh or being in the community, but the same techniques can be used at church, introducing yourself, talking to people in different areas, and and there's a lot that can be done there, even going to the extent of actually going to the church and practicing some of those in the same situations so that you so that child can get used to those to those um patterns and give some kind of meaningful response, even if it's showing a picture or nodding or doing something. And then the opposite is true, the the the flip side you could say is giving members just a few tips on what to do, how to interact with that child. It's it's like gold. If you just know if you do this, this, and this with this child, you're gonna have some really good interactions. And here's maybe two or three things not to do, not to say or not to have these situations makes a big difference. Uh and that kind of knowledge is powerful.

Accessibility in the Church & the importance of disability specialists

Scott Brandley

It's really good. Yeah. When I was a teenager, we had uh one of my one of the young men in my ward was deaf. And I remember that as a ward, we came together and we had sign language lessons. And that was actually a really cool experience. Not only did it bond us as a ward, but it made his name is Jared, it made him feel very loved that we would go out of our way to do that for him. And and I'm I'm seeing something like that could maybe be done, you know, with with kids with autism or even adults. I mean, they probably feel alone a lot of the time as well.

Liberty Kepford

Yeah. A huge takeaway I had from talking with these people is the importance of a disability specialist in wards and stakes. It's a calling in the church handbook that's really underutilized. A lot of units don't have them. Um, but it made such a difference for so many families to have a person whose calling it is to think about things like that and help these individuals with autism feel comfortable at church and facilitate um the ward supporting them. Um, there were so many parents that I talked with who, like we talked about, church was so exhausting for them that they would come and they wouldn't get anything out of it because they were chasing their kid around and had to go with them to primary, couldn't be filled by the spirit and join with other adults. Um, but then some would have a disability specialist in their ward who would go with their child to primary or to nursery and help give them a break, help give that support. It's also one of my favorite stories in the book is there's a young woman with autism, and she struggled socially in her ward, that she was interested in different things than the other young women and just didn't connect with them very well. And it was so hard for her. She never wanted to go to youth activity. She had a hard time going to young women's. Um, but they called the disability specialist who was like a young adult in the ward, and her job, she would just go with the young woman to youth activity and young women's. She would talk to her about cats and the books she liked to read and just be that person to support her. And so I think disability specialists and awards can help in so many of these situations to give the training and support that's needed.

Scott Brandley

That's an awesome story. Yeah, um, that'd be a really cool calling, actually, you know, to be there for somebody, be their friend, because I think that's that is a lot of the issue, is because they're different, they get ostracized. And it's not necessarily on purpose, right? Because kids are kids, right? But when somebody is not doesn't fit in the norm, they kind of are on the peripheral and sometimes they they do feel like they don't fit in. But if they have a friend that's there with them, I mean that could make a world of difference.

Liberty Kepford

That's a cool story, and so much just thinking of little things. There is so much, especially with youth, of that social aspect that it's hard fitting in because they might be a little developmentally behind or into different things. I talked to a sister, an older sister of this boy with autism, and she shared this sweet story with me. She started crying, telling it that he was gonna go to young men's camp, and they were all getting ready and they went to the store to buy food, and he saw these Legos, and he loved Legos, and he told the young men's leader that they should get a Lego set for all the boys, but they didn't have budget for that, and none of the other boys were really into Legos anymore, just he was like it was his way of trying to connect, and they weren't able to do it, and he came home so upset because of that. Um, but just such little things that you might not even think about can be so hard for these people with autism.

Liberty & Robert’s father-daughter dynamic

Scott Brandley

Yeah. So, what is what's your experience been as a father and daughter doing this project together? How has that helped your relationship to grow?

Robert Johnson

It's been fantastic. Um, Liberty is extremely talented and very driven. Um, and uh it's just been really fun as I knew lots of people um that I had worked with, and she knew lots of people, and um, she would do the interviews and we would talk about it, and uh, she was able to figure out um our vision um and clarify it and and really because there's so many different ways to go. The the optimism is a spectrum, and so you have individuals that are you know, they might have an IQ of 140 and and they're super smart in a specific area, but they have lots of uh social problems, where or you might have a child that is non-verbal that has extreme challenging behaviors and everything in between. Um, and she was really good at kind of saying, well, let's let's get stories from different ages of different um areas on the spectrum and creating some some information, some behavioral information, pointing out some of the things that worked well for each family and putting those in there. She created a wonderful index at the end. Um, it was great. I loved it. I um was so scared to write a book. Um, and I would do it again. It's so fun to do it with with liberty.

Liberty Kepford

And it's been really fun for me going into my dad's world a little bit. That my whole life I hear him talking about autism and behavior stuff and all this that he does. And he also has served in the church so much, but getting his insight as I talk with these people that he has worked with or People like them. And so that has been so much fun. And I've loved as I've interviewed these people, then sharing the stories with him. And he he loves it. He gets so excited and then had all the insights that I could add in the book too. We've also had a lot of fun. We this is our second podcast we've been on. And so it's been fun to talk about it together and to work as a team.

Robert Johnson

I love working with liberty. And I'm also passionate.

Liberty Kepford

It's a really important topic and one that needs to be talked about more. So many people were just so excited when I would talk to them that their story was going to be told because it's really important to them. And these challenges have been unique to them and also are very common. A lot of people are having these, but it's not talked about enough. So we're really excited to have the book done.

Hopes & dreams for Liberty & Robert’s book

Scott Brandley

Yeah. So what is what is your hope for the book? How did what would if you had your perfect dream come true? What would you like to see happen?

Robert Johnson

When my whole dream was that I could have the book to give personally to families that were struggling. I wanted to say, you're not alone, here's a book. And Liberty has helped me understand that there's a whole world out there of people that are feeling these same things. In a perfect world, we would hope that any family or any uh leader in the church or um ward member that that wanted to know more could get inspired and be able to have a place to find this information, to feel like they're not alone and to be able to support each other. Uh I I when you see success, it's just amazing. Um you see these individuals, just because they're on the, you know, they they're on the spectrum, they have special talents and special uh gifts that are utilized that really bless people's lives. But if they're not coming to church, if they don't feel welcome, if we don't understand what those gifts are, they don't get to be used. Um let me share just a story. Um, there's this wonderful um man, um, he's probably about 25 or 30 now, and uh he has um he's really, really good at technology, and he was called to be the ward um clerk. And he he doesn't like to talk to people. He has a very small group of friends, but he has this talent, and he is able to, he administered his job just so well. Um, he he uh did a lot of the technology for broadcasting, um, a lot of the he made lots of things wireless and so seamless for the ward. Um, and he served in that position for a long time and just did excellent, did fantastic. Um he was able to thrive and bless people's lives um because people knew his knew his individual talents and were able to utilize him well. And he feels very connected and loves he loves going to church, he loves his savior, um, and that is expressed um as he meets together with the other safety.

Challenges & stories of the youth with autism (transitioning into adulthood, passing the sacrament, camps & conferences, etc.)

Liberty Kepford

And in our book, we have a lot of inspiring stories of people at all ages that did really well in the church and were able to serve and contribute in beautiful ways. And I also talked with a lot of people who are really struggling in that moment, and I hope that people who are struggling, following their kid around in primary, can see like these adults with autism in the church and what they're able to do and get hope from that. Also, like you said, leaders get help from them. And that's really the stage we're at now is we have this book, we have this resource, and we want to share it with people and they're figuring out how to get the word out about it.

Robert Johnson

There are special uh like different challenges that individuals face. So, for example, prime well, we'll just kind of give you, I'll give you two or three examples. In primary, um, a child on the spectrum often really struggles with all of the stimulus. There's a lot going on. Kids are yelling, uh you're singing loudly, um, and they're a lot of times they feel very, very uncomfortable. And there's a fantastic story about a ward that that kind of realized that if they put their sharing time second and had the child go to class first, they could go in a small group with their with their helper, get the lesson, um, have a really good time, go to singing time, and if it got too over overwhelming, they could remove them and they would get most of the experience. Otherwise, they'd be overwhelmed, and then the rest of the hour was shot. Um, and that takes some doing with the primary president that you know to get approval and to be able to move that and have everyone change their schedule. But because they did that, this this young boy has a fantastic experience. Um, another transition is going into young men and young women. Um, a lot of times, children on the spectrum, they love routine, they love things that are black and white, and church is that way. There's you there's always an adult there, there's there's a pattern that they follow um along the way, and then all of a sudden they get into young men and young women, and young men and young women aren't always black and white. Sometimes they say things that they don't really mean, sometimes they talk out of both sides of their mouth, and these these children, these young young adults now, these these youth, they don't get it. Um, a lot of times their interests, like Liberty uh talked about, they still want to play with Legos or they're fixated on a certain um uh game or YouTube video or something like that.

Liberty Kepford

A girl who was so passionate about family, uh not family history, church history. She knew everything about Joseph Smith and had all these facts memorized as a youth.

Robert Johnson

And so a lot of times the other kids will make fun of them. Um we we see that in the book of several kids that were they would call it bullied at church by the very people that you know are that that should be accepting them fully. But those they didn't know how to deal with these quirks. Um, and with a little bit of perseverance and with bishops that would intervene, they could work those kind of things out in one way or another so that they felt comfortable, safe going there. And part of that is helping the family, uh teaching that, teaching the child how to interact a little bit better, but also helping those other kids understand. Um, seminary is a big one. Um, we talk about that. I'm working with a child right now that is in seminary, he goes to early morning seminary, um, and he has a uh disability specialist um that actually is um a member of his ward, but also is a registered behavioral technician, which is an ABA term, that goes with him to seminary and he has a great time, and he he contributes in his own way and does some wonderful things with his favorite time when President Nelson died and he heard about it, he just cried and cried. He knew he he just knew that there was something really powerful and good there.

Liberty Kepford

Um a big milestone, too, for youth for young men is passing the sacrament and blessing the sacrament. And there were so many young men that I talked to who were able to pass the sacrament because of the support they had from their families and their wards, that their young men's leaders would go with them to the church and practice the route of where they would go. Or there's a family with lower-functioning kids, and either a young man or the kid's dad would walk with them as they could pass the sacrament. And the mom was so dear, she said that at first she'd get really nervous. One of her sons, she had a few sons with autism. One of them would like make a lot of sounds that were kind of silly during the sacrament and just didn't look like the classic deacon you see passing the sacrament. But that very often people would come up to her and cry and say that watching her son pass the sacrament made it so much more meaningful and was her favorite part of church. And these young men found so much purpose in being able to pass the sacrament and to serve the ward in that way. And so finding ways to use these kids' talents, especially in this weird transition time of being a youth, can help so much.

Robert Johnson

I'll just add another story to that. Um, I I worked with a young man, um, he was just uh sustained to be a priest today, and he would he lived with his grandmother who wasn't active in the church, and he would come with an aunt and different things. Sometimes he just came on his own. And um he learned to pass the sacrament in this same kind of way. His quorum rallied around him, and he loved to be able to pass to the to the bishop. Um, he he didn't know how to really sometimes interact the best with other people, but having that routine of going up front and everyone seeing him just felt really good. And the bishop actually invited him to sit with him for a couple of months. He would sit on the stand next to the bishop and he would be really reverent. I mean, they taught him how and and he was successful. And after a while, um, he got over that. But he is able to be successful in an environment with not a lot of home support sometimes, um, and do very, very well.

Liberty Kepford

And serving in the church isn't just for the young men. Um, we have a story of a wonderful young woman who struggled socially at church, but she was very talented. She loved to crochet, and they had a whole youth activity where she taught everyone how to crochet, and that made her feel so special. And the youth were able to connect with her over this thing that she loved as she served through that.

Robert Johnson

I don't know if I think it's the same young woman. She um uh was very shy and and socially awkward at times, and there was a young woman that just took her under her wing and she did it at school. Um, and she would just say, she'd always say, Come with us, come with us, always. Um, and she was actually uh it was during COVID and and she helped um uh introduce her to the gospel, and she did they did their discussions over over Zoom and in person, and and she ended up joining the church, but watching that situation um at school, she was so nice to her and so kind to her and invited her that she ended up being involved in a lot of school activities that she wouldn't have been otherwise. And the school kind of embraced her because of this example of this one young woman um in her class uh that made such a difference. Um, even to this day, uh they're still really good friends.

Liberty Kepford

That's really special.

Scott Brandley

You were talking about um the mission side of it.

Robert Johnson

Yeah, let me share one more story before we go there. Um, summer camps, um, youth conferences are a place where a lot of times individuals on the spectrum struggle um because it's very, very different. Um and there's several stories about doing service projects and going to camp. Um one one example um these these these boys were going to camp and they knew that camp is where there wasn't maybe enough food, things were different, they and they were really nervous. So they would hang out near the food often. And the leaders are like, go out, go play, you know, go go do your do your activities, go away. And it was it was kind of a tough situation for those boys. They they didn't want to leave, they were afraid they weren't gonna uh get any food. Um, and once the leaders that was explained to them, they were able to put things in place and help them feel like you're safe, there's gonna be plenty of food for you, we promise, and help them be able to interact better out um in the field.

Going on missions with autism

Liberty Kepford

And with that story, one of the leaders, the mom told me that after she was talking to one of the leaders who was getting upset with her sons. It was twin boys, and she was explaining to him that they have autism, and these are some of the reasons why. And it was a really bad experience for her because this leader was acting like it was some excuse that she was making up and like not taking it well. And so that was a bad example of what leaders should not do. But a similar experience, um, there's this boy with autism who went on trek, and they had this like they were in families and trek, and they had this time when a member of each family was left behind, and they like went off and then they went back to rescue them. I don't know exactly why something with the trek story. Um, but the bishop thought it might be special for this boy with autism, and he explained it to him, and he was like, Yeah, fine. But then when it actually happened, the kid freaked out and like he didn't actually understand that he was left behind. And in reality, it was way harder than he expected. Um, but this bishop was such a good example because as soon as that happened, he contacted the parents, he met with them personally right after a trick and explained and apologized and talked with the boy and had some other things on track to help him feel really included and like he wasn't gonna be left behind. So that leader was such a good example of when we make mistakes, because everyone does, and especially autism is more visible sometimes than others, and it could be easy to just treat them like you might another kid when they have other things going on. And so when we do make mistakes to really work with them and apologize, yeah. Right.

Robert Johnson

And we can talk about missions. Um, there are several stories of individuals on the spectrum, um, and there's different ways to say that. Um children with autism that served missions. Um and their their experience varied. Um one thing that is becoming more common is you know, if they've if they've had challenging behavior, especially if they're taking any kind of medication, um, and they and some of these some of these youth really, really want to serve a mission, but the the a regular proselyteing mission, but they're not able to. And um they have the opportunity now to do service missions, which is such a fantastic blessing. But helping those individuals understand exactly how that works and being being prepared for that process is is very important, and especially for bishops and leaders, to help that process go well so that they can feel like they're serving their Lord in the exact same way that the Lord appreciates what they do just as well as any other way that they served. Some of them do go on missions, though, and um, like Liberty said, a lot of times they mask they they're they're they're extremely intelligent, and so they're able to mask some of their social um insecurities, some of their social deficits. And a lot of times when they get out there, those become more apparent. Some of them are successful with with good training, and sometimes they're not. You should tell a story about Zachary.

Liberty Kepford

Yeah, Zacharias was in my mission. He was awesome. Um, but he had autism and he loved teaching. It was his favorite part of the mission. He's like finding and some of the social aspects were really challenging, but teaching he loved. Um but I talked a lot with my mission president about Zacharias, and Zacharias would have different problems with companions, and sometimes ward members would not be very sensitive, like you're saying, wouldn't know some of his background and would be harsh on him. Um, and so he Zacharias had these different struggles. And the mission president, President Strong, he told me that early on in as mission president, he really struggled because people with autism and mental health challenges and a lot of different contexts weren't really ready to serve a mission. Like he pictured a missionary and they had these problems that made it really hard. And so President Strong was like, Why are they here? What am I supposed to do? Really struggling. And then they had a zone conference where people could bear testimonies. And Zacharias went up and he was very aware of who he was. And in his testimony, he said that he never would be able to do this without the Lord. And he talked about some of his struggles. And President Strong said that watching him, he saw that that was so true. Um, that all of us aren't enough. And just Zachariah's being there was such a powerful missionary tool that even him with his challenges was serving the Lord the best way he could. And it really switched how he saw missionaries and how he saw people with autism, that they do have so much to offer, and it might not be what you picture of a teaching missionary tracking down the street, but that they were he was able to offer so much in his own way.

Robert Johnson

That's awesome. Um, and and then there's there's my my parents went on a mission to Temple Square to do family history, and they were zone leaders for a zone of individuals that were with with autism, they were on the spectrum, and they worked with them for a couple of years there, and there were just some wonderful things that they did where they didn't they weren't transferred so often. They were able to have the same companion for a longer period of time. They were able to have somebody intervene on a regular basis and work through any social challenges and give them, actually teach them some of the skills that they needed. And then they were able to serve, um, doing the same job, a job that they were good at, um, over and over again for those for those two years, so that they would love what they were doing. They were very effective at helping people. Um, and everyone, you know, everyone with autism can't serve in that kind of a mission. But with the Just Serve app and with a disability specialist, with um individual parents, as they think about what their talents and their skills are, they can be very, very productive doing things that um that they love to do that are helping other people uh in in really good ways, uh, finding some of those ways.

Liberty Kepford

Um and with missions and serving in the church in general, I think it's really important to plan it, to look at it with the individual in mind. There were a few different, especially young men that I talked to who said that they felt so much pressure to serve a mission and that socially they just had to when they didn't want to. Um, I talked to a sister talking about her brother, and she said that it's hard, like you have all these expectations for your child or your brother that, like, oh, they won't be able to go to college or do a mission, all these things I loved. But she said that when you really get to know this person and love them, you're like, he would hate a mission, he would hate going to college. That's not what he wants. And I think that's important, like with the service missions and different ways a mission can look, that we do it playing to their strengths and what they'd like to do. And a mission might not be for everyone if they have these challenges, and that that's okay and they can serve even at home.

Service missions with disabilities

Scott Brandley

Yeah. What do you think about like you you talked about your six-month mission and the flexibility that the church has nowadays? What do you think about service missions for people that have these kind of disabilities or struggles?

Robert Johnson

I think it's it's uh divine revelation. It's it's it's such a wonderful thing. And and I've worked with a number of individuals that um some of them went on a mission, started it, and then came home and finished as a service mission, and some that just did service missions. And they were um one of the struggles that people are finding is it's hard to find the right situation. Um, and having somebody spend a little bit of time to get those right situations, they often love to serve in the temple. Um, you know, if they and maybe they only serve for part of the day. Uh, they maybe they just go to a to a place um for a few hours a day and then come back home. Um there are so there's so much flexibility, so many different ways for them to serve that uh with a little bit of thought, they can have a fantastic experience.

Liberty Kepford

And they can do so much good. I talked to a young adult girl. I just love she had recently returned from a mission and she loved her mission so much and was able to do so much good. And she said she grew a lot personally that all growing up, she would mask a lot and she would kind of mirror what people were doing socially around her. But then she Was in companionships where she was with people all the time and they would be doing things that were different than how she thought a mission should be. And so through that missionary experience, she was able to really work on confronting people and having those hard conversations. Um but with her transitioning more to adults in the church and some of their experiences, she was not diagnosed with autism until after her mission. And as I was talking with people, I found it was pretty common, especially for women, to not be diagnosed until a little later in life. Um, you'd know more about how that works.

Robert Johnson

But one of the reasons that that happens is um girls have a a better uh ability to mask their the some of their challenges. And if somebody is quiet and they are smart and they get their work done and they follow routines well, leave them alone. We you know, there might be something that's a little bit tough, then not quite right, but they they're doing it, what they need to do. And then when they leave home, there's all these new dynamics, there's all these new social pressures that they didn't face before. Um, and I and I've I've worked with many, many young single adults that you know they they got pretty good grades in school, they did well, and their parents were so proud of them, and they had all these supports. They go off to college, and all of a sudden they don't know how to access the help center and they get a bad grade, or they have a problem with their roommate. Or um I I worked with a wonderful guy that um he he played in the band, and the band got they made it to the final the playoffs, and so every weekend they were going and he just he fell apart and he ended up failing all of his grades and having to come home. And and all of a sudden parents are like, what is going on? And so they they um go to a doctor and they they um end up getting that that diagnosis to help them understand a little bit what's going on. It's it's a young single adults, young men and women are getting that diagnosis um quite a bit. They're figuring a different it's a different population.

Resources for parents + helpful tips

Liberty Kepford

Yeah, I talked to a mom who took it really seriously, really wanted to help her son have a good experience. And she did a lot to help her son do a service mission. And in high school, he did plays and was did a lot. Um, but then now he's an adult, and all the family would have different things going on on a Friday night, and you'd be like, What am I gonna do? And she was like, Well, you have to plan things, and so she helped him get with a behavior technician, and the behavior technician's job was she would help him craft text and he would text his YSA group, and they had like a show and tell night at his house, and they would show things from their mission and the fun things for their lives, and just giving him that little extra support to plan social events, he was able to thrive and he had so much fun in his YSA.

Robert Johnson

I was just gonna say there is a technical side to this, that the there are amazing resources for parents. You know, Liberty just talked about a behavioral technician helping craft texts, and and and a lot of times the problems that um adults with autism face, and even children and young adults, are very small. Um, maybe they don't know, they they don't do eye contact very good. They need some social, some coping skills for when they feel anxious, they practice certain so uh social situations. Um and those are things that can be taught just like anything else. Um, and with with a little bit of help from maybe a disability specialist or or an ABA specialist, they can develop some programs to teach very specific skills to help them be successful. Um, sometimes, you know, wearing some headphones or getting some nice um um uh air iPods so that you can filter out some of that noise, finding a ways to help them meet their needs in any environment that they're in. Um and and that's that help is available and it's becoming more and more readily available.

Liberty Kepford

I also think with individuals with autism with some of those struggles as ward members, it's important for us to be really understanding. I talked to a woman who said that members shouldn't take it personally if she doesn't want to shake their hand or look them in the eye or needs to sit in the back, that she has these things that she knows about herself that are hard for her. Um, but culturally in the church, we do all these things and she doesn't want people to hug her. And she's like, the sister missionaries are so huggy, but there's these little things that as we get to know people in our ward, we can be respectful of that and help them to have a good experience at church, even with that.

Robert Johnson

Yeah, we find these moms that are so proactive, and they would immediately, if they moved into a new word, they'd go talk to the bishop and they'd say, This is what my daughter needs. And they she would share that with the leaders. And once people understood kind of the boundaries, the rules, they could interact very, very well quickly. They didn't have to learn from from sad experience uh what to do.

Scott Brandley

Yeah.

Liberty Kepford

And disability specialists can play a big role in that too, is communicating with parents and with adults with autism about like what do you need? How can we set up a ward activity so you can go do it and enjoy it? There's this mom who told about her 12-year-old son, and they were having a game night in the ward, and she was like, Where is he? And they she found him under a table, like huddled up because it was too loud, it was too much. And I talked to the a woman, and she is incredible. She has a job in business, she does great. Um, but she said it's so hard for her to go to ward parties because it's so awkward about where she should sit and how it all works. So she always tries to go early so people will sit next to her, but just little accommodations we can make to help help all that.

Understanding, awareness, empathy, and support

Scott Brandley

Yeah. You mentioned the word understanding. I was thinking in my mind the word awareness. But yeah, I think as you guys have been talking, think the thoughts that have come to mind were awareness, empathy, and support. Like if if we could we could be more aware or more understanding, like you said, Liberty, of of the needs of that person and even of of what their family's going through, too. Um, and then have empathy for them and for what they're going through, and then support them, find ways to support them, right? I mean, uh those those are kind of the themes that I was seeing as you guys were sharing some of these experiences. What are your what are your thoughts on that?

Robert Johnson

I love that. I think that that's exactly right. That's I think the the foundation of of having having some success. Um a lot of times, church is families often do really good at family home evening and having scripture study and prayer and developing those routines one-on-one, and the child responds. And they often are they're not all kids. Um, and so church is is primarily just like, let's get through this, let's just get them there and hopefully connect them with to have a social to get to the place where they could feel the spirit at church. Um, and and when you talk about understanding, I I worked with a young wonderful young man, he was in seminary, and it was so hard for him. He would they they were in a big circle, and he would literally put his chair outside of the circle and put his back to the teacher. But he was there, and the teacher just worked with him year after year and worked with the mom and would get him to to join in, and he felt the spirit and um and had some wonderful experiences, even though his behavior seemed exactly opposite. Um, it was very hard, but um, with that that constant communication, working through things, he was there.

Appreciation for people with autism

Liberty Kepford

Yeah. Um, one word I would add to your summary. I agree with what you're saying, but I also think appreciation for these individuals with autism because there are challenges and there's things we need to work with and think about, but also they have so much to offer. And at all ages, I was amazed by these stories I was hearing of these brave and strong individuals and their relationships with Heavenly Father that were so personal and deep, and what they could offer that they could teach and they could share in these unique ways. One example was there's a family with two sons with autism, and I knew them on my mission, and we were teaching this woman, and she was kind of on the fence, didn't know exactly about the church, and she had family home meeting with this family, and the missionaries weren't there, but she was there with this family, and the kids taught the lesson, and it was so moving to her. It was a big step in her conversion, seeing these kids testify so powerfully, even with those different challenges. And so I think it's so important to see not just these individual challenges, but that they have so much to offer in really unique ways.

Final thoughts

Scott Brandley

Yeah, I love that. Wow, you guys have put a lot of time and effort into this. I can tell I can tell that you that you're passionate about helping people and and getting this information out there. Um as we kind of wrap things up, let's share um share with us some of your maybe final thoughts about what you what you'd like to get to the heart of somebody listening to this. What what do you want them to know or to fill?

Liberty Kepford

I can share first. Um a big thing for me as I was talking with these families and these individuals with autism, so many times I was overwhelmed with this love that I felt. And I just knew that God loves these people so much, and he cares about them, cares about their stories and their challenges and their successes, and that he is watching over them, and that as we are their family members and ward members and ward leaders, that we can get his help to help make church a welcoming place for them, help make it the way Christ would want it to be, and that the Spirit can guide us and the the Lord is in this work.

Robert Johnson

Yeah, I agree with that. Um I just I think of uh this this young man that's going to seminary. Uh when I first met him, um he was uh he was in a preschool, he'd had a cast, um, a half-body cast, and um he was restrained and he got out of that and he he didn't have any language, um, and he cleared the room. The first time I saw him, he went through this preschool and just knocked everything off of every shelf. And there was a substitute, and I talked to the substitute, and she's like, Yeah, they had another substitute, and she had a baby, and the regular teacher took the year off. And I was like, Oh, this kid needs some help. Um, and working with him, we helped develop a language system. Um, had some very, very, very tender times as he was learning to communicate. Um, and his his mother was a member of the church, single mom. Um, she wasn't going to church, it was just too hard. And as these wonderful ward members would reach out to her and help this son, um, and as he developed, was able to overcome some of his challenging behaviors and starting to communicate. Um, it was a year ago, she invited me, and I know I worked with him professionally, but I knew that they were a member of the church. She invited me to go to the temple with her. She she was going through the temple, and there was, I think, five or six of us, and it was some of her close ward family. And that group had made all of the difference in that there was so much more happiness and joy, stability in that family because of what that that ward had done for her. And they go to church every week. They actually spoke in church two weeks ago. Um, they let me, they let me, they told they reported on what that they had what they had done, and and the son goes to seminary and he's able to participate half day in the in the school. Um, and I just think we can we can really help each other in such wonderful ways. Um and we hope that this book, um, this podcast, this information might help um many, many people move towards that. Um, God loves all of his children. I know that someday we will meet again um in a very different situation. And when I meet some of these individuals, they uh will be glorious, they will be wonderful. And the Lord will say, Robert, did you do everything that you should have done to help help them? And I hope that I can say yes, and I hope that we can embrace and it will be a glorious reunion at that time. Um, we have a sacred responsibility to make the church accessible to all of us. Um I just say that in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Liberty Kepford

Amen.

Outro

Scott Brandley

Wow. Well, thank you guys so much for coming on. This is this is a timely topic and one that doesn't get enough attention. So we really appreciate you guys taking the work, putting the the time and effort into making this a reality. And anyone that's watching, make sure you go and hit that share button. Let's get this message out there. We call it your five-second missionary work, but uh go hit that share button. And hopefully we can get this message out. We can get this book into the hands of the people that that need it, where it can do some real good and and hopefully change some lives, make some people's lives better. So show us your book one more time, guys. Um, can you put that back up there? So, Autism in Christ's Church. So, where can they where can they find your book?

Liberty Kepford

You can get on Amazon or Barnes and Noble.

Scott Brandley

Okay, perfect. And we'll put a link in the description of the podcast so people can find it easily there as well. That's perfect. So thank you so much for being on and good luck on your mission. It sounds like quite an adventure. And thanks everyone for tuning in. If you have a story that you'd like to share, go to latterdaylights.com or email us at latterdaylights at gmail.com. And until next week, have a good time and a good week, and we'll see you with another episode. Until then, take care. Bye bye.

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Scott Brandley

Host
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Alisha Coakley

Co-host