King Before Kingdom: Putting Christ at the Center of Faith: John Bushman's Story - Latter-Day Lights

What if some of the things we do to strengthen our faith are actually getting in the way of truly connecting with Jesus Christ?

In this week’s episode of Latter-Day Lights, Scott sits down with longtime Seminary and Institute teacher and author John Bushman to explore the message behind his book, “King Before Kingdom.” John shares how even well-intentioned Latter-day Saints can fall into a checklist mentality—measuring faith by how well we keep the commandments, attend church, read the scriptures, or fulfill expectations—while unintentionally losing sight of the Savior at the center of it all.

Through eye-opening insights about grace, conversion, the sacrament, the Atonement, priesthood, and worship, John invites us to rethink some familiar ideas and language within Church culture. His message is a powerful reminder that the gospel isn't about earning our way to heaven—it's about seeking, trusting, and following Jesus Christ. When we put the King before the kingdom, our relationship with both can begin to change.

*** Please hit SUBSCRIBE to get our latest episodes, and hit the SHARE button to help us share John's story and light with others. ***

To WATCH this episode on YouTube, visit: https://youtu.be/hPB-DLdRspo

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To LEARN MORE about John’s work, visit: https://www.johnbushman.com/

To READ John’s book, “King Before Kingdom,” visit: https://a.co/d/0b6ci5aD

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To READ Scott’s new book “Faith to Stay” for free, visit: https://www.faithtostay.com/

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Also, if you have a faith-promoting or inspiring story, or know someone who does, please let us know by going to https://www.latterdaylights.com and reaching out to us.

Transcript

“Faith to Stay” by Scott Brandley

Scott Brandley 0:00

Hey there, as a Latter Day Lights listener, I want to give you a very special gift today. My brand new book, Faith to Stay. This book is filled with inspiring stories, powerful discoveries, and even fresh insights to help strengthen your faith during the storms of life. So if you're looking to be inspired, uplifted, and spiritually recharged, just visit faithtostay.com.

Intro

Scott Brandley 0:25

Now, let's get back to the show. Hey everyone, I'm Scott Brandley. Every member of the church has a story to share, one that can instill faith, invite hope, and inspire others. On today's episode, we're going to hear ideas about how we can make our church life more nourishing by a renewed focus on Christ and the little things we do that often get in the way of really connecting with God. Welcome to Latter Day Lights.

Welcoming John Bushman to the show

Scott Brandley 1:14

Yeah, you bet, man. So I'm excited to hear about your story. Um, I know you've written a book, it looks really interesting, and I want to jump into that. But before we do, why don't you tell everyone a little bit about yourself?

John Bushman 1:29

Yeah,

John in a nutshell

John Bushman 1:30

my wife and I, we grew up in Arizona and we have five kids and now one granddaughter, which is just wonderful. That's a whole another stage in life. Um, I've taught seminary and institute for 30 years, and it's amazing. We're in Arizona and then St. George and then the state of Washington, and now back to Utah. And um, my wife and I, we love to go on adventures and we hope to hike Nebo this week. So that's something we're looking forward to. But we're kind of empty nesters, also. We our kids have grown up and now I'm not in the home, and luckily they're kind of close by, all five of them. Um, but yeah, it's a a new stage in life. But and yeah, love riding also. That's something I've done for years.

Scott Brandley 2:21

But yeah, um, so I love hiking. We have well, we both kind of live on the in the Wasatch front here. There's a lot of great trails and places to go that you can hike. And it feels like you're still in the city, and then like five minutes later, you're in the wilderness, right? It's awesome. It is cool. Well, I'm excited to hear a little bit more about your story. So why don't we turn the time over to

Why did John decide to write a book?

Scott Brandley 2:45

you and you can tell us where your story begins, my friend.

John Bushman 2:48

Yeah, and you know, why even write a book? I think over the years, um, like especially the last five years, there's been a lot of people sharing stories, and you talk to people and some that aren't, you know, part of the church anymore, and some struggling with their faith, but are part of the church. And you kind of see this common theme that's been happening, and people often have a gripe about the kingdom, the church, and well, the church is this, and why is the church that? But you notice they don't talk much about Jesus Christ, the king. And really, the greatest part of the kingdom is the king. And when we make it about Jesus Christ and everything that we do, it really has a huge impact. Uh if I could share a brief story, uh, I was listening to somebody talk about their mom who has since passed away. And this person is no longer part of our church, but he was saying that, like on her deathbed, that his mom was just faithful and doing family history work and so many good things. And on pretty much her deathbed, she was saying, God, I just hope I've done enough to make it to the celestial kingdom. I hope I I've been good enough. I'm doing enough. And ah, it just kind of like hurt my heart inside that her ideas of God and eternity, and that it was like in this checklist. The gospel for her was, I gotta be doing enough. And you know, that that's not biblical, it's not book mormonal, it's not doctrine covenantal, you know, it's just that's not how we are to see things. But so many members of the church have this idea of, well, if I'm good enough by doing all these particular works enough of the time, I'll earn my way to heaven. And if they don't say earn, you know, I'll qualify, you know, a code word for it. And this is just one of those scriptures that just brings joy. Um, you can't read this without just feeling good. It's 2 Nephi chapter 2, where Lehi is talking to his kids before he's passing on, and he says to Jacob, you know, Jacob, I know that you know what's that?

Scott Brandley 5:01

We literally read that scripture today for family scripture study. Awesome. We we read 2 Nephi chapter 2. That's so crazy.

John Bushman 5:11

Isn't it amazing that God wrote something, you know, through prophets 2,000, whatever years ago, and then it just lines up, you know. That's the power of scripture. It just keeps us on track and lifts us in. And um, he says to his son, uh, let's see, this is verse five. I'll just pick up. He says, and by the law, no flesh is justified, like the do list, and okay, you keep all these commandments well enough. He says, No flesh is justified, or by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off, and also by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good and become miserable forever. So, what's the solution? Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the holy messiah, for he is full of grace and truth. Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin. Now, who? I mean, is this mean there's just everyone will go to heaven? To those who have a broken heart and contrite spirit, and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered. Broken hearts, like, okay, Lord, you're in charge. I can't do this. I'm going to try to follow you and follow you in faith, and not trying to reach this level of perfection or whatever. It's all about Jesus. And God, the next verse, you can't skip this. Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, mercy, and grace of Christ. This lady was like, through her merits, she thought she can make it. If I'm good enough. And it's like, no, only through the merits of Christ. And gall, isn't it wonderful the Book of Mormon kind of can get us back on track? And of course, that's also taught in the Bible and doctrine covenants, but we have a problem sometimes in the church of creating a gospel that's not in the scriptures. It's where, okay, I'll I'll just earn my way there. It's not a good thing.

Scott Brandley 7:11

Yeah. Well, that's interesting because even in my own life, I feel like I'm trying to earn merit through my career, right? And often I feel like I'm putting God on the side. No, but there's that pressure to like to try to live my life in a way that makes me worthy to make it, right? But there's also that human side that also wants to have merit and justification. It's a battle.

John Bushman 7:41

And you know, honestly, at work and things, there are merits, and you know, there we do earn promotions or whatever, but with God, thank goodness, it's like a parent and child, and he's pulling for us, he's not trying to, you know, knock us out of the race and ah, you didn't quite do it good enough. Like you're a parent, you know how you just love your children, you want them to succeed and you want to help them. And another little story, someone else I was listening to, they're talking about the Sunday school answers, you know, that you should uh read your scriptures, you pray,

We are already “on the team”

John Bushman 8:15

you go to church, you go to the temple, you and you do these things so that you know you can have this the spirit in your life and the strength in your life and all these good things as they see it. And then some people, they're like, wait a second, it's not working. I'm going to the temple, I'm praying, I'm doing all the list, but I'm not feeling the strength in my life. How come it's not working? The gospel as they're seeing it, the gospel is not working when the gospel of Jesus Christ is faith in him and repentance, trying to change and turn back to him and you know, baptism and we are members of the kingdom. When we got baptized at eight, or you know, people get baptized later in life too, right then you became a member of the kingdom. You're on the team. It's not like, well, you're provisionally if you can hang on to. I mean, you can quit the team. Like we believe you can walk away and, you know, and then, okay, that meant nothing. But as long as you keep trying to follow Jesus, you're on the team. You are going to heaven. Heaven is yours unless you decide to walk away from that and reject it and you know, follow other gods, I suppose. But oh, so many people miss that expectation, that hope in Christ that I oh, it makes life so much more enjoyable. It just brings joy to the soul.

Scott Brandley 9:39

I love that idea of that we're already on the team. I think people battle because the works versus faith arguments. So I'm sure you have thoughts some thoughts on that, but that's hard, right? Because you do feel like when you get baptized, you're making that commitment and you take the sacrament every Sunday and you're renewing that commitment. I love the idea of that you're already on the team. That's great.

John Bushman 10:01

Yeah, I think it's um Doctrine and Covenants section 25, the very first verse, and this is to Emma Smith, just before being baptized. All those who receive my gospel are members of my kingdom. You're in the kingdom. Now, again, you can in this life, you can walk away from the kingdom and decide, okay, I'm out. And, you know, because we have our agency. But as long as we're trying to follow Jesus, and some people even take that, oh, try and follow Jesus. Well, I could have done more, I could have read my scriptures for a few more minutes, I could have prayed longer. I could have, you know, we can always know. Are you trying? That's good enough. And you know, as a parent, isn't that also the same? When your kids are trying, you're like, hey, if you got a B, that's fine. B's are great. But we're like, no, no, unless I get an A, I'm not good enough. And that's just not how God is. So He meets us where we're at, and He puts His arm around us and He loves us. I uh Yeah. You

King before Kingdom

John Bushman 11:00

know, maybe another side of it is I think people lose the joy in the gospel because they make it about the church rather than Jesus Christ. Like, you know, the title of the book is King before kingdom, not king instead of kingdom. Like the kingdom's really important, but the king needs to be first place. And then everything works out right. But you hear people, I don't know, sometimes I think we will bring our kids up in the church, but not necessarily up in Christ. And we assume, well, you know, if they're good with church, then everything else just works out right. But it's funny, you can read your scriptures without trying to seek the Lord. You can pray without trying to really connect with the Lord. Today, you know, the sacrament, how easy is it to take the bread, take the water, and you just go through the motions, but no emotion, no trying to recommit yourself to following Jesus Christ. And when we do it that way, it really becomes empty. It really is, oh, the joy is just sucked out of it.

Scott Brandley 12:04

I agree with you. I because we do it every week, right? Or we and we say our prayers so frequently and we read scriptures so frequently, it's very easy to go through the motions and just make it a checklist item instead of feeling the emotion behind it. So I agree with you 100%. What are your thoughts on how do we overcome that? Because I I think that is a problem that we all face at some point.

John Bushman 12:28

Yeah, and I'm guilty of

How to consciously seek the Lord

John Bushman 12:30

that too. It takes effort, it takes work. Um, you know, the the term when um the confirmation we say, and to receive the Holy Ghost, and we think receive, okay, I just have my hands out and they'll just drop there in my lap, you know. And no, you think of receiving like football, uh, a receiver, oh, they're working so hard to be in the right place, right time, and everything, avoiding the obstacles. And so there's this conscious effort of seeking the Lord. Like Moroni says, seek this Jesus, whom the prophets and apostles have testified of, seeking him. So, okay, I'm gonna pray right now, but I'm gonna seek the Lord. And, you know, in that prayer, Heavenly Father, I want to be closer to you today. I want to connect with you and your son. And when you read the scriptures, maybe like, Heavenly Father, help me to see something of your son here as I'm reading these verses that makes me feel closer to you. And, you know, think as you took the sacrament the last time. Did you actually think about the promises? I've asked seminary students, I'm like, um, how many took the sacrament last week? You know, most every hand goes up. But I was like, okay, well, you've heard the sacrament prayer. If you've been a member pretty much your whole life, you've heard the sacrament prayer at least 700 times. You know, you do the math. And so, okay, uh, what are the three promises we make when we take the sacrament? That it's just silent. And it's like, here, write it down, take a moment. And they're thinking about it and they're asking, you know. And um, now, of course, in the bread, it's willing to take upon us the name of Christ and always remember him and keep his commandments. And the his is always referring to Jesus Christ if you follow the pronouns properly. So, and then think about okay, willing to take upon us the name of Christ as we took the sacrament today, or will take it today when you hear this podcast. Okay, I'm gonna try to act more like Jesus this week and always remember him. Okay, I'm gonna try to think about Jesus. I want to just have him like right in front of me and connected with him and keep his commandments. Oh man, I've been struggling with this commandment, oh, and that one too. Okay, I'm gonna try not to lose my temper so much this week and help me, Lord, in the next seven days not to and you know, if we're consciously trying to, we're really recommitting ourselves, there is power in the ordinance of the sacrament. But on the other hand, if we're just here comes the bread and I'm just being quiet and looking at that person's hair and you know, whatever, it's empty. It takes a conscious desire to seek Jesus in whatever we do. Yeah. Those who are listening, here's

Are Sundays about Church or Worship?

John Bushman 15:10

a diagnosis question. On Sunday morning, is it about going to church or going to worship? You know, now going to church, okay, here's this thing we do. God wants us to do this, let's do it, you know, or going to worship. Now, worship is about uh connecting with the Lord. And oh, if you want, we can talk uh more about worship and the Hebrew of worship and Greek and and what it means, but it is to bow down and like, Lord, you're higher than me in all ways, and I want to follow you. And boy, anything that makes you feel closer to God, as we sing those hymns, as we listen to those speakers, it should be helping worship. And one time, uh, my youngest son and the other kids that were not in the house anymore, you know, college and stuff. And um, I could tell as we're going home, he's kind of silent. And I'm like, hey, how was Sunday school today? How was church? And he's like, Dad, I never learned anything new. Why do I even have to go to church? And in his mind, you know, oh, we go to church to learn new things, to maybe get a stronger testimony of certain things. And I wish I would have asked, you know, hey, but did you connect with the Lord today? Did you feel closer? Did you try to connect to him? And because that's what it's about. That's what worship services are. It's not just motions he wants us to go through. He wants us to connect with him. But the last part of the sacrament prayer, the last phrase, right after we make those promises, that they may always have his spirit to be with them. And his, again, the pronoun refers to Christ, to always feel connected with Christ and His Spirit. And of course, that's also feeling Heavenly Father, Spirit, and the Holy Spirit, and I, you know, it's all the same. But yeah, connecting with the Lord. But so often we just going through the motions. Yeah.

Scott Brandley 16:57

Yeah. That is a battle, honestly. And then you add the world on top of that, right? Like kind of what I was saying about your career, right? Or I mean TV, uh, like social media, right? There's just so many other influences distracting us from worshiping, truly worshiping, or even thinking about God most of the time, honestly. Right? That's true. And there is also the social aspect of church where people go to meet with their friends and the people around them in their community and try to be part of that. I think there is some value there, but sometimes that does kind of take over, and we go for that piece of it. I don't know. There is a lot of distractions in the world today that take us away from the worship side. And that's that kind of sounds like what your book is about, right? Bringing Christ back in, making him the priority. So, how did you get this idea?

The inspiration behind John’s book

Scott Brandley 17:50

Like, where did this where did this whole idea for this book come from?

John Bushman 17:54

Just a lot of uh stories like the two I shared and more years ago. Uh, one of my daughters, she had a school assignment in college um to visit some other churches. And so she did. And she later told me, you know what? I don't want to go to our church anymore. I want to go to this particular church. And I'm like, why? What, you know? And um, you know, I'm wondering, is she having a faith crisis? The, you know, some church history thing or some church policy, or you know, and she's like, I just feel closer to God when I'm there. And oh, it's like a jab in the heart. And I like, well, you know, maybe it's because they have a rock band and you know, they are hands in the air as they're worshiping, and you know, it's just new in that. But part of me thinks if she's really getting nourished and connecting with God and the emphasis is that way, then other things wouldn't really be a problem. And I think people that, you know, something in church history that bothers them or some policy, well, if they're every week just really connecting with God and feeling close to Him, I think most of those things can be worked through because there's answers to everything. There really is. But if you're not being nourished, really nourished in God, the other things just aren't good enough, even being this is God's true church on the earth, this is God's kingdom on the earth, but even that won't be enough if you're not being nourished by God's kingdom. And there's little things we can do in the church, I think, the way we talk about things, the way we phrase things that can make it better. Maybe as an example, um, conversions and baptisms and you know, missionary work. When I was a missionary, this is before preach my gospel, but the terminology hasn't changed at all. Like when you meet someone, you would, you know, talk about the Book of Mormon and you talk about Joseph Smith and um then you know Moroni's promise about how they can know if the Book of Mormon is true. And then you would challenge them to read and ask God if it's true. And then I remember, you know, hey, if you're feeling the spirit, you know, like you're getting nudged, go for it, and you can commit them to baptism right there. And the idea, this is pretty much the wording of preach my gospel right now. When you know these things are true, will you follow Jesus Christ's example by being baptized on August 30th or whatever it is? And notice what we're asking. When you know these things are true, you know the Book of Mormon is true, you know, Joseph Smith is a prophet, therefore this church is true, you know, all this ripple effect. When you know these things are true, get baptized and follow Jesus' example by being baptized. They put that little thing in there, but think about if you go in the topical guide, there's this great reference. It's um baptism qualifications for. And in it, it says every place in the scriptures where it talks about qualifications for baptism. Not once is there something about having a testimony that the church is true or a testimony in general. Baptism is about deciding I'm gonna follow Jesus Christ for the rest of my life, I'm gonna serve him for the rest of my life, I'm all in with Jesus Christ. That's what baptism is about. Now, there is an ordinance for you know becoming a member of the church. Confirmation, you know, don't we even say and confirm you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ at Latter-day Saints? Uh, but first off, it's about deciding to follow Jesus Christ. And, you know, I look back on my mission in the Philippines where people got baptized pretty easily, but they stopped attending church pretty easily. And um, I wonder if many of them they got baptized because they got a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true. But if I would have asked them, hey, when did you decide to really follow Jesus? Wait, was that even part of the deal? You know, was that were you ever asking for that? And we do, don't get me wrong, we need testimonies that the Book of Mormon is true. This is God's kingdom on the earth. But more important than that is a testimony of God, of Jesus Christ. It's king before kingdom. You need both of those. We have no business baptizing someone who has not made a full-on commitment to follow Jesus Christ. We just scripturally have no basis to do that. But our language is even like, oh, she's being baptized a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And no, you're being baptized a follower of Jesus Christ and uniting with God's church. Same with the word conversion. Did you know like the idea of convert to the church or a church is nowhere in scripture? You have converted to the Lord everywhere in scripture, but never is the idea of conversion to a church. Now we can be like, okay, I love God's kingdom and I really do. I believe this is God's kingdom, but we're not supposed to be converted to the kingdom. You're converted to the king, right? There's a big difference there.

Scott Brandley 23:05

Yeah, that's really interesting, John. I agree with you. And a lot of it probably is the wording that we use, and that's what we focus on because that's what we're saying, right?

John Bushman 23:17

Yeah. Wording is um,

The importance of wording

John Bushman 23:20

it's weird. Little traditions will pop up with the wording, like I said, you know, converted to the church. He's a convert to the church. Um, but we do it in so many ways that I think a lot of people wouldn't even think about. For instance, on the side of Seminary and Institute, I teach an online class for BYU Idaho. And in the class, uh, they can ask questions at the end of the week, and I'll answer them personally through like a little video like this. And um, one of those weeks is about the atonement of Jesus Christ. And so they study, you know, there's all this stuff to read about the atonement that week, and then they ask questions. And it is very common, I would say more than half will ask a question something like this. How can I apply the atonement in my life? How can I have the atonement help me? How can the atonement strengthen me? And they'll often say, Jesus Christ, how can I have the atonement of Jesus Christ strengthen me? But there's something strange. They're talking about the atonement like it's a thing unto itself, that the atonement, like they apply it, like the atonement is lotion that they rub into their skin or something like that. That, you know, Jesus suffered and died, which created this atonement thing, and this atonement thing is what can help me and heal me, which is just heresy. Um, no, it's Jesus who helps you and heals you. The atonement is an event that happened 2,000 years ago, but the event doesn't help us. It's Jesus in our lives who helps us and heals us. And so, yeah, you can't reach out to the atonement, you reach out to Jesus.

Scott Brandley 24:57

Right. Yeah, it's just an event that happened, but that's not the thing that changes us. It's Christ.

John Bushman 25:05

We talk about priesthood in a funny way, too. You know, imagine for Elder Jeff's, I don't know, uh, he's a missionary, and um, this family, the Gonzalez family, is really sick. And him and his companion are like, hey, can we give you a blessing, you know, and and bless you so that you can feel better soon? Okay. And let's say, you know, they're stopping by the Gonzalez family the next day after these blessings and to see how they're doing, and they're like, Elders, we feel so much better. I mean it within an hour, all of us were feeling so good. How in the world was that? And now, what would be the right answer? How are we healed? I think many people would say that's the power of the priesthood. The priesthood did that. And again, we're talking about priesthood, like it's this thing unto itself, this power independent of God. You know, in the book of Acts, you know, the Holy Ghost came upon all the members of the church. Um, Peter and John, they're walking into the temple and they see this man lame at the gate of the temple. And, you know, he wants some money, you know, because he's begging. He's like, Silver and gold have I none, but in the name of Jesus Christ, stand and walk, and lifts him up, and suddenly he's hopping around and he's like, Look, everyone. And and um later, Peter and John are arrested and they want to know by what authority, by what power did you heal this man? They don't say the priesthood did it, they say it was Jesus Christ who healed this man. We say, in the name of Jesus Christ, stand up and walk. And the name means you're doing it in place of him. So Jesus doesn't say in the name of Jesus Christ, Jesus just says stand and walk, but we're acting in his name. And later, um, in Acts chapter nine, Peter doesn't even say in the name of Jesus Christ. He just says to this guy, Jesus Christ maketh you whole, and he pulls him up and he's whole. Jesus Christ is who does it. Now, priesthood is the authority to act in God's name, but it's always God who heals the person. It's Jesus who heals the person, not the priesthood. But boy, how often do we talk about the priesthood as it's almost like the atonement, it's a thing unto itself. If that were true, if God used the priesthood to create the world, boy, the ultimate direction of our worship should be that power, the priesthood, worship that. But it's not, God is the this the power, it's Him, it's not this thing called priesthood. So, but boy, we we just talk about it in weird ways, it's all over the place without even consciously thinking about it.

Scott Brandley 27:41

I mean, this conversation, I've had several aha moments already, like because you just don't think about it, like you don't think about the atonement as just a past event, and you don't think about the priesthood, right? Like in the way that you're talking about it, but it's true, like what you're saying is true, and it totally makes sense when you hear it in that perspective.

John Bushman 28:04

Yeah,

The awakening of the Church being more about Jesus

John Bushman 28:05

I I think we're on the cusp, the edge of a big awakening in the the church of just making it more about Jesus. You know, it happened in the Book of Mormon several different times, and where people just kind of woke up spiritually and thought of things a little bit differently, and everything just was new and fresh. And I think it's not just in our church, but all over the world, there's like kind of a spiritual awakening happening right now. And boy, but just if we get little things out of the way, we can do that. Um, it will happen. But we sometimes put these barriers in the way. And, you know, conversion we talked about earlier. Elder Iring, years ago, he um was talking to seminary and institute people, and he said that um, speaking to us teachers, he said they need to be converted while they're in your classrooms. So, like between the ages of 14 to 18, I guess, they need to have conversion experiences. Now, you know what he means, and I think I know what he means. I put that on the board, and you know, the elder Irene, I then I said, converted to what? Like Elder Iring said, you need to be converted in these next few years. Converted to what? I gave him all a sticky note, and they wrote on the sticky note, they didn't put their name on it, but just wrote on that sticky note what they thought they're supposed to be converted to. About one third of them said Jesus Christ or God. I'm like, yay, you know, that's good. Uh, one third of them put converted to the gospel, and one third of them said converted to the church. Now we kind of talked about the church end of things. I mean, the church is really special, but that's not what we're supposed to be converted to. It's Jesus, the king. But then I said, Well, gospel, who said that? And you know, and student would raise their hand, and I'm like, what do you mean, gospel? And they're like, you know, what we believe. Well, what do you mean? What do we believe? Like, what is the gospel? And they said, Well, it's everything found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I'm like, Everything? They're like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. A word of wisdom, is that gospel? Yeah, tithing, yeah, yeah. And their mind of gospel was just everything found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And then I'm like, Well, can you be converted to some parts of the gospel, not others? Like, can you be converted to tithing, but not the word of wisdom or vice versa, and stuff like that? Oh, sure, sure. So, how is testimony and conversion different? Are they the same thing? And they're like, No, no, you you get a testimony of the word of wisdom, you know that's from God. And converted to the word of wisdom is when you're committed to not drinking alcohol or whatever. And um, oh, okay. Now, if what they meant by gospel, like the real meaning of gospel is found in the scriptures, is Jesus Christ came and died to save us from our sins and through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism. I mean, that's the gospel, not all these other things. And so if they're saying converted to the gospel, I think that's you know, if they really mean the real gospel, they're right on the money. But if they're just like all the teachings in the church, that's not good enough. It's gotta be Jesus Christ, it's gotta be God. And so these little things get in the way that maybe we need to stop using gospel as a term that means everything because it dilutes the word. It's one thing, it's Jesus, you know. And but yeah, we gotta these little obstacles we put in the way.

Scott Brandley 31:33

Wow, you have so much valuable insight.

John Bushman 31:37

The book is just one thing after the other of that, um, of these things that I think people, when you see it, you just cherish it and like, okay, I want to start moving this direction. You know, I would

The biggest obstacle of spiritual awakening

John Bushman 31:50

say the biggest obstacle to a spiritual awakening is legalism, is the technical term. And you can't really fight against a problem until you can put a word to the problem, legalism. And here's the gist of it: like, if someone asked you this question, what would you say? Like true or false. If a person said, Hey, if I'm a good enough person, I'll go to heaven. If I keep the commandments sufficiently, I'll go to heaven. Is that doctrinally correct? I think most members of the church might say, Yeah, if you keep the commandments well enough, you'll go to heaven. Notice I haven't mentioned Jesus Christ. And like, let's put a pin in that for a second. And this is something that might surprise you. Um, I found not many people know this. The Bible is broken into the two parts, the Old Testament and the New Testament. Right. Um, did you know the word testament is a mistranslation? Like the actual Hebrew word or Greek word is a long story. It doesn't like testament to us means like declaration, the old declaration, the new declaration. Um, the actual word is covenant. So if we're using the terms that, you know, the scriptures, it's the old covenant and the new covenant. In the old covenant that came through Moses, it was like he read the law, he read all the commandments, and Moses and all the people stood to it and said, We will do all those things, we'll keep those commandments. And Moses sprinkled the blood of the covenant on them. And the idea was you keep the commandments sufficiently, you'll go to heaven. Problem is no one's ever been able to do it, uh oh, except Jesus. Jesus actually did do it uh just right. So, what is the new covenant? And boy, we were reading in 2 Nephi earlier about how by the law no one is justified. And so it's only through Jesus Christ. So the new covenant, when Jesus was giving the sacrament to his disciples, he took the cup of wine and he said, This cup, this is the cup of the new covenant. Now, in King James it says New Testament, it says there, but every other translation of the Bible says new covenant. So Jesus came and gave a new covenant with his death and the blood, you know, we take that into ourselves. And what is the new covenant? Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The Old Testament pretty much does not mention the word faith, and they're not commanded to have faith, really. You mean trust in God, but not technically faith. While the new covenant is all about faith, John 3, 16, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth, believing and faith are used interchangeably in the New Testament. And whoever believeth in him would not perish but have everlasting life. Now, the old covenant, keep the commandments well enough. New covenant, faith in Jesus Christ. And we also don't believe, I mean, if we said, oh, that just means you believe he exists, no, that's not what true faith is. True faith is you want to follow Jesus Christ for the rest of your life. You're trying to follow him, and that's how we make it to heaven. So if we are going on a checklist, like the old covenant was a checklist. I gotta, I got these 613 commandments, I gotta make sure I do those well enough. And while the new covenant is focusing on Jesus Christ and always remembering him and keeping his commandments. And we're still trying to keep the commandments, but our focus is very different. It's not the checklist, it's Jesus. And the weird thing is, when you make it about Jesus Christ, you end up naturally keeping the commandments better than if you're focusing on the list. Yeah, Jesus, he's the new covenant, and when you see that, it changes everything. Really does.

Parallels to the Pharisees + focusing on the checklist

Scott Brandley 36:00

Wow. Even as you're talking, like I'm thinking about the Pharisees and all the things that they had to do all the time, right? The list, and that's why they couldn't see Christ, because they were they were going through the list, it didn't make sense. Uh but like even like there's parallels to the church today. As you're talking, I'm seeing it, but like even as members, like we have a checklist that we're trying to essentially like do on a regular basis, and we like I think you're right, like we tend to focus on the checklist more than we actually focus on the reason for the checklist, which is Christ.

John Bushman 36:39

Yeah, and you know, of course, everyone's different, and you know, some people it's more of a focus on the list, and some people are more focused on Christ. And boy, the more we turn that towards Him, it changes everything. And yeah, I think we become less judgmental, also. Some people are like, I don't like church because you know, people judging each other and hypocrites and all that. Well, that's a list mentality, and you know, honestly, if I think that young lady getting a tattoo is the one sin that will put her over the top so that she's not going to heaven, then I should shame her and be judgmental. And you know, but when I'm like, okay, it's not the list, it's Jesus. Hey, are you trying to follow Jesus? Okay, then you do, and it helps us so we're not so judgmental. It it's so much better in every way, but it's really difficult for people to leave that list.

Scott Brandley 37:32

Yeah, John, you're a genius. No, it's just scriptures, it's an I'm just I'm just messing with you. But no, that's this is this insight is super valuable, though. Like, I do feel like you've got some great insight. Do you feel like you've gained this insight because you've taught seminary for so long? Or is it just a combination of events in your life that has kind of got you to this point?

John Bushman 37:58

Both for sure. To take a moment to just step back and think about things like what does this mean? Why am I doing this? And listening to other people. I mean, I'm on the shoulders of you know, lots of people who have come before and pointed out things, and something great, I think, really is around the corner, but we just gotta remove some obstacles,

What can we do to be a more genuine follower?

John Bushman 38:20

I think.

Scott Brandley 38:20

Yeah. Well, I've in my life, as I get older, the more I think about what I can do to follow Christ more, like be more genuine follower, or I truly just you know put him first. And it's hard, it's hard to do. So having some of these perspectives that you've shared, that helps a ton, actually. Like having the right mindset, changing some of the wording that you're talking about, right? It helps a ton to just have some of those ideas changed just from this short conversation. Like it's like uh a lever, right? Like, if you have enough leverage, you can move the lever. This short discussion that we've had today, there's a lot of leverage behind that. I can see it in my in myself as we're talking. Like, I've had several aha moments that have helped me shift that lever. I don't know if I would have otherwise. So thank you. Seriously, you're very welcome. Genuinely, genuinely, thank you for this time. Like, I feel like

The benefits of writing a book

Scott Brandley 39:20

I've learned a ton of lessons. I'm gonna have my kids watch this episode because I think it'll be really helpful for them. Okay, so here's another question for you. Why did you decide to write a book about it, about all these thoughts and discoveries?

John Bushman 39:33

I guess we all have our circle of influence, and your circle of influence is much bigger in many ways, but we have our circles, and you know, there's people I'll never meet somewhere, but a book can sometimes get a message out and even give an excuse to, you know, meet with good people like you and to get a message out um broader. So I think that's why a book, but yeah.

Scott Brandley 39:58

Yeah, I would agree because um I've written one as well, right? About faith. Yeah, like I do feel like that is a way that you can share the story in a logical way, right? Because you personally, like, I don't feel like I'm a very good speaker. I can get in front of like in church, I can give a good talk, but on the spot, that's one of the things I like about this podcast is I don't have to be the main person talking. I get to be the the sideline guy, right? But when I'm writing, I can put my thoughts together and organize them in a way that makes sense, and I can build upon ideas and concepts and really get my point across in a way that I think could really help people. So I do agree with you. I think books can be a powerful tool to help share powerful messages like yours out with the world.

John Bushman 40:51

Yeah, I looked it up. Um, your book, Faith to Stay. It looks awesome. Um, I have it on my list now, you know, because we sometimes get a big list of things we want to read. Right. Um Faith to Stay, it just looks awesome. Thanks, man.

Scott Brandley 41:05

I'm sure it's kind of like you, you know, like life experiences, things that happen that just accumulate, and then one day you just feel that inspiration to put it down and put those thoughts together and and share them, right?

John Bushman 41:22

Yeah.

Scott Brandley 41:23

So, man, thank you so much for doing that, for taking the time to put your thoughts together. I will definitely read your book. I'm very, very interested just from this conversation that we've had for under an hour. But honestly, like I do feel like this could be a pivotal change in people's lives. Just changing some of these ideas and getting the right perspective behind them can bring them a lot closer to Christ. So I really appreciate it. So as we kind of wrap up, where could the people find their book if find your book if they want to learn more?

John Bushman 41:59

You know, um,

Where to find John’s work

John Bushman 42:00

I think one of the best things is to go to johnbushman.com and there you'll see different podcasts like this one. I put links there, um, little blurps I made on Instagram, uh, where the book is sold, the audio of the book, the you can read a chapter just to get a taste for the book, and like, okay, do I really like this book? Um, or listen to a chapter, or you know, all those different things, or it can link you to Amazon or wherever you want to buy it. And um, so johnbushman.com is where to do that.

Scott Brandley 42:37

Awesome. And we'll put that in the show notes so people can go check that out. Awesome. So as we kind of wrap things up, John, what would you like to have as your parting thoughts? Um, anything that you'd like to share

Final thoughts - Make it about the Lord

Scott Brandley 42:50

with those listening as we kind of wrap things up.

John Bushman 42:53

I guess make it all about the Lord. Uh, make it about seeking Jesus, make getting it about Him. The kingdom is so great. I think some people worry about, you know, the title King before Kingdom, and they think, oh no, it's like attacking the church or something, you know, degree. That is not it. It's king before, not instead of. And um, the kingdom becomes even greater when we see the majesty of the king. So putting the king first, and then suddenly the kingdom makes sense, and you can make it through faith crises, and and it just changes everything. So keep seeking Jesus in the scripture reading, in the prayer, in the temple, attended everything you do, and it just changes everything.

Scott Brandley 43:41

Love that. Well, thanks, John. I think we might have to have you on the

Outro

Scott Brandley 43:45

show again at some point to have a deeper. No problem, I'd love that. So really appreciate your time and your thoughts. And thank you, everyone, for tuning in to another episode of Latterday Lights. If you have a story that you would like to share, like John, go to latterdaylights.com and we have a form that you can fill out. We'd love to have you on the show as well. And also make sure to go hit that share button so we can get John's story out there. Do your five-second missionary work. Hitting that share button. It's such an easy thing to do, and it's such a powerful way to share a message. So, and this is definitely a message that deserves to be shared. So hit that share button. Let's help John get his message out there and share some of the light that he has brought to us today. Thank you, everyone, for tuning in. Thanks, John, for coming on. Really appreciate it. And we'll talk to you everyone next week with another episode of Latter Day Lights. Till then, take care. Bye bye.