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LEADERS IN CONSULTING
The “LEADERS IN CONSULTING” show is dedicated to helping Partners and Managing Directors of Consultancies grow their business faster.
If you want to learn best practices from other Leaders in Consulting, this show is for you.
Each episode features an interview with a consultancy Partner, Managing Director or Thought Leader, discussing topics like:
1. How to set up a winning strategy for your consultancy
2. How to upsell and cross-sell more
3. How to win big whale leads and convert those to clients
4. Hiring and keeping valuable team members
5. How to become a thought leader by building your personal brand.
LEADERS IN CONSULTING
Ep. 136 — Hire for Mindset, Equip for the Tools, Augment at Every Level: How the Consulting Firm That Wins in the AI Era Is Actually Built - with Gianluca Barletta
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
AI is not just changing consulting delivery. It is exposing how your firm is built.
Gianluca Barletta, Partner and Global Head of Data Science at PA Consulting, explains why the consulting firms that win in the AI era will not simply be the ones with the most tools. They will be the firms that hire for learning ability and creative thinking, equip their people safely, build the data foundations needed for enterprise-scale AI, and make augmentation a leadership decision at every level. Gianluca shares why many AI pilots fail once they meet real organizational complexity, how client expectations are shifting toward faster business value, and why AI-native early-career talent may be one of the industry’s biggest opportunities.
You’ll learn:
1. Why AI pilots often fail when they meet legacy systems and fragmented data
2. How hiring criteria are shifting from technical depth to learning ability
3. Why partner-level AI fluency matters for firm-wide adoption
4. How AI-native talent can accelerate the next consulting model
5. What separates volume-led firms from ingenuity-led firms in the AI era
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Gianluca Barletta is open to connecting about AI augmentation, data foundations, and the future consulting model. If you would like to exchange perspectives, reach out on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gianluca-barletta-phd-44080910/
Sarah Edwards is Chief Product Officer at Kantata and has spent over 30 years helping professional services firms scale, transform, and deliver measurable business value across the US and Europe. She is passionate about how AI is reshaping the consulting industry, from how firms win work and deliver outcomes to how they empower talent and strengthen client relationships.
Get in touch with Sarah on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahedwards3/
More episodes and insights: https://www.leadersinconsulting.com/podcast
Pick the right people and pick them based on um their soft skills as well as the technical, but focus on the soft skills because they can always learn the technical, the soft can be harder, right? Um secondly, um give them as much tools as they possibly can whilst not forgetting that there are ethical and security constraints that need to be taken into account. And uh I would say thirdly, be very deliberate in thinking of your organization as an AI augmented organization. Uh, be very clear that all uh levels of the organization need to be part of that and embrace it.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the Leaders in Consulting Podcast. I'm Sarah Edwards, your host and president of the London chapter of our community. In this show, I speak to CEOs, partners, and MDs of consulting firms about their best practices and hard-won insights. If you're keen to join the conversation, visit leadersinconsulting.com to find out how you can connect with peers at our monthly confidential forums in London, Munich, Hamburg, Cologne, Düsseldorf and Frankfurt. And now let's get started with the show. Welcome, John Luca Balletta, partner and global head of data science at PA Consulting. Uh, welcome to our show.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for having me, Sarah. Lovely to be here.
SPEAKER_00Fantastic. Well, first of all, before we get started into our discussion, perhaps tell me a little bit about PA Consulting, what you're doing there and your role.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. So PA Consulting is an innovation and transformation consultancy of about 4,000 people spread globally. Uh, we have a very strong presence in the UK, but we operate also in uh other global markets such as uh the US, the Nordics, uh, and the uh and the Netherlands. As far as I'm concerned, I've been at the firm for about five years, uh, and I've been leading this beautiful team of uh uh of data science, uh, which actually is a reference to the science of data rather than some people think of data scientists as sort of analysts and advanced analytics type people, but it's more the science of data because my team effectively tries to solve the most complex problems that our clients have across the life cycle of data. So starting from what we call the uh intelligent foundations, and I'll expand for a second if that's okay, around that, which is um from data strategy governance management into uh data engineering, data architecture, platform building, and then on to the uh advanced analytics, as we call it, which includes obviously AI, uh machine learning, MLOPs, uh, computer vision, and so on. So all the various uh types of AI that you can have. Uh and it's interesting because obviously we do a lot of work um kind of directly, but we operate a lot uh with our colleagues within the digital uh stream as well, uh, operating, therefore, a proper end-to-end um uh service for our clients across the digital and data and data spectrum. And the the thing I want to mention about Intelligent Foundation is um is the fact that in the world of AI, that's probably a bit of a segue into the things we're going to be discussing later. Uh, but obviously the world of AI is revolutionizing uh also how our clients operate and intend their business and also the expectations that they have uh of ourselves. So uh the idea behind Intelligent Foundation is effectively that uh, as you are aware, uh about 70 to 80 percent of the experimentation that happens uh around AI ultimately fails, not uh at the level of an MVP or a proof of concept, but fails to scale up at an enterprise level. And oftentimes the reason is that it's uh kind of designed to succeed at the POC level, but doesn't really embed with the complexity and oftentimes the um the number of legacy systems that an organization, especially complex organization or large organization, has to has to face. So, what we do with Intelligent Foundation is that effectively we take the AI blueprint and the AI strategy, translate it into what the foundational element should be. So, what is your then data strategy, what governance you should adopt, what is the level of maturity that you have in an organization, what architecture you need to adopt. And we do that not just by thinking of the end product in AI, but also by embedding AI in how we deliver, which obviously gives us an opportunity to deliver faster, deliver better. Uh, and um and this is not a static process, obviously, because use cases changes, strategies changes at the corporate and business level. So the important thing is how do you adapt that continuously to always be on top and always have a strong foundation? Because without that intellectual foundation layer, uh scaling at industrial level, at enterprise level uh becomes effectively impossible.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. It does feel like it comes down to data. In fact, I was at a conference uh this week where I was talking to, you know, other sort of leaders of you know consulting businesses, and they were talking about the challenge they've got is their data. Their data is so scattered. And if I don't trust the data, how is AI going to help me, you know, sort of leverage that data?
SPEAKER_01Exactly, exactly. And oftentimes, you know, um companies have an interesting use case, can be maybe a consumer uh think to use case. Uh and to prove the concept, you know, you select a particular group of cost the customers or a particular subset of data, and you try it out, and maybe it's it's great, no, but then when you have to scale it up, you start looking, okay, there's no there's different data. Uh, the they I don't have a single source of truth. Uh, I cannot combine data to create AI-generated data, the so-called metadata. Um, and the four becomes all very messy when you try to scale it up. And the true value of AI comes from that enterprise-level AI. So, in our vision for the um so-called intelligent enterprise, the real layer has to come from this intelligent foundation layer. Uh, and obviously, let's not forget, when you do that, you always need to think in terms of uh security and ethical uses of AI. So these are two very, very fundamental um uh pillars that sit even underneath that. So you need to ensure that they're secure and that whatever you're trying to do with AI is ethically uh ethically.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Are you seeing the customers that you work with? And I assume it's quite a broad spectrum of sort of customers and industries that you work across, but are you seeing some going faster than others? And what trends are you seeing in terms of you know the progress that people are making in terms of establishing that intelligent sort of foundation layer?
SPEAKER_01It's uh that's a very good question because it's a very interesting mix. And uh uh, for instance, we operate across um all the markets that P operates in, from private sector to very complex large um organizations in the public sector, for instance, in the UK, uh, but also also abroad in the Nordics, for instance, or the Netherlands. Uh and we can immediately almost see that some of the newer organizations, maybe in the space of consumer goods or financial services, tend to be more digitally native. Maybe they've not been around for so long, right? Maybe they are uh building their business uh and they tend to be um a bit quicker in the adoption. They need to be a bit more flexible, uh, and being digitally native, they don't have a lot of legacy to deal with. But um, frankly, the vast majority of clients that uh that I work with in the public sector, but also in the private sector, uh, are large organizations that have um they have difficulties with the legacy systems. Um so some of our clients, for instance, uh they um they tend to struggle to immediately put something to use at scale because of all the legacy systems, because of the complexity of that architecture. So a lot of the work that we're doing to support these clients effectively is around building the foundational element. And now that AI is becoming more and more prominent, and for some of these clients, AI is more a pure experimentation because there are maybe constraints uh linked to uh to the use of the use of AI. Um, it becomes uh really the moment now to ensure that you have the right foundations for the future.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. This podcast is aimed at sort of consulting leaders, you know, people like yourself who are running and leading consulting firms. And I've seen in the industry for a long time that we're very good at going out and helping our customers lead with technology change and leading it change in their own businesses. But when we look at our own businesses, often we're not that good at sort of doing that ourselves. So just interested in terms of where you think, you know, PA consulting is in terms of you know it going on that journey yourself and thinking about how you're you know leveraging AI and getting the data structures in place to transform how you operate as a business, not just your customers.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And to be honest, it becomes um, how can I say, uh difficult to be believable in the eyes of a client when you start talking about transformation and digital and data and AI when you haven't done it yourself. Yeah, you lose a bit of credibility, frankly. Uh so um we've been working on an internal transformation linked to AI for the last uh for the last few years now. Um, and our uh our own employees are very happy as well because uh obviously that that they've allowed them to transform the way they work has improved dramatically their productivity. Uh and to be honest, I'm not gonna lie, it didn't come without its challenges, right? Yeah, um, but some of the challenges that uh maybe are worth uh worth sharing are things like data residency, right? So um a lot of uh AI tools or AI companies actually reside their data outside of the UK, just to give you an example. Um, and for security reasons and uh you know, based also on what our clients' needs are, uh, we're not always able to use those. So um that's been a bit of a, for instance, uh thing that we are constantly looking at because every time there's a new tool that's cool that we can use to improve productivity, we always have to ask ourselves is it also safe? Is it also something that we can just you know uh get on board and do? So there's it's very interesting balance, I think, between the uh technology horizon scanning on the one end, right? The business case uh building, but then also you know, the safety considerations, the security considerations, the data residency considerations. Uh but the interesting thing is that this is very much coming from from the boss from the basically the team as well as from the leadership, because it's the team that's asking for tooling, it's the team that is AI native now, right? And as leaders, uh our job is to uh indicate kind of the way of what we're gonna be doing, allow them to embark on this tooling, uh, give them opportunities also to train up, uh, whether they are technical, like for instance, people on the uh in my team or in other areas of digital, uh, so that they are actually building, using these tools to build uh AI, or other parts of our uh innovation and transformation business uh who are more uh quote unquote traditional management consultants who are using this tool to increase their productivity. But everyone, regardless, uh has been asking um and um you know to adopt AI.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think we're seeing it's not just a technology and data shift, it's a human shift in terms of you know what people are demanding. I mean, when you look at back at your career, I mean we've both worked in this industry for some time, but if you think more than we care to adapt. I know, yes. When I when I look back and when I say it's nearly over 30 years, you're like, I don't really want to admit to that, to be honest. But um when you look back on your career and when you started your career as a consultant, like um, what do you think's fundamentally changed and how have you seen that change, you know, I guess from your start of your career to maybe more rapid change that we're seeing, you know, today?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think it's been some things have been entirely transformed, right? So the way we get to to the end results of for instance, especially in the last few years with AI, uh, that's entirely changed. Uh, the way we um uh we can, for instance, accelerate some of the early phases of production, whether it's slides or reports or um summarizing uh documents, right? Or even um you know, allow to um support ourselves with the with a mock AI evaluator when you respond to a um to an ITT, right, or to an RFP. Um so that's dramatically changed and it's dramatically improved. Other things, however, I don't think have changed so much because ultimately clients want expert advice, want they want that they need the the you know the innovative thinking that the consultants can bring to um to them. And uh and that in a way is not changed. So the human element, the human uh um thinking, the human ingenuity uh that was and still is the main differentiation, was and still is uh what uh makes consulting uh you know still being a very, very important part of uh of the industry and uh very valuable, uh very valuable to our clients.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I I I agree with you. I mean, I think the human element to me is still the most important element. That's really what consulting was founded on. There are people who are more cynical in the market. Well, they will actually tell you, I guess, you know, consultancy is under threat, um, you know, and that human element, you know, can you know, clients will be able to go and you know have their own agents and technology to do that. Where do you sit on the degrees of you know the impact you think you know it's gonna have on the consulting industry as a as a whole?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I don't think it's ever gonna be entirely true, basically. So I don't think um, I'm also quite positive because uh I really do believe in the human in the loop. And the moment we lose the human in the loop, uh, you know, that's where you know we open the door to uh the Terminator scenarios or you know, the the the matrix. Uh we need to have control, right? We need to retain that control. We need to uh have machines and artificial intelligence help us as much as we possibly can, but ultimately it's our responsibility, you know. The that the final decision has to be ours. Um, and you know, we've noticed also in the adoption you were asking earlier, like uh what are we doing internally? Uh, as part of our training and adoption, a lot of emphasis also goes in, well, that's great, but make sure you check, right? It is your job to check the results that AI has produced for you. It is your job to ensure that we're actually adding value. Uh because it's true on the one end that the um, especially the large language models are growing their sophistication at an incredible pace. Even just if I compare what I can ask um, for instance, Gemini or Chat GPT or Claude now, compared to what I was able to ask like a year ago, even it's dramatically different. But nonetheless, the depth, the originality of thought is still something that it's still quite a way ahead. Yeah, and ultimately, you know, we are the ones that need to come up with the great ideas. We are we have the ability to do so, and I think that human element is still very, very important. Um, and yeah, I'm not one of those cynical that's gonna say you it's gonna completely die. I don't think uh I'm I'm definitely not one of those that says, well, nothing has changed really. Um, I think we're gonna have more and more help, right? We're gonna build, we call it ourselves a bit the consultant 2.0, but it's gonna be very quickly consultant 2 3.0, a consultant 4.0 as technology advances, but there will always be a role for uh uh for the human. And in fact, there has to be a role for the human.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. But do you think that's changing our consulting models? Because traditionally consulting firms have been built in that pyramid. We bring on lots of graduates and and junior resources, and like you and I in our career, we build up the experiences over many years and become the experts at the sort of top. Um, is a lot of talk about that pyramid sort of crumbling and changing. You know, what's your view on that and what are you seeing in your business?
SPEAKER_01Well, that's a that's a very good question. Um, the crumbling versus the changing, I think is the interesting, the interesting question, right? Um, what we are noticing from um from a client perspective, so from a client expectation perspective, it's uh a lot of emphasis on the outcome, right? So on the expert advice they get at the end, on what is effectively in it for them. So what is the ultimately the benefit that we bring into the business? Uh this is fundamentally the focus, right? Uh how we get there has changed, right? Because obviously a lot of the more uh mundane tasks or the early stage tasks can be almost fully automated with a human in the loop to check that they're correct, of course. Uh, but inevitably are automated. I'm thinking not just the sort of first rough uh slide production using tools like, I don't know, Figma or rather than Germany Arcopilot. Um I'm talking, for instance, coding, I'm talking about um you know early staging data, uh data quality, data cleansing, all of that can be now done by and large by um by leveraging AI tools or different ways. Um and that makes effectively uh enables us to be to be quicker, to be faster, to be better, and ultimately focusing on what is the one thing that the client actually does care about, which is uh which is the outcome. Um, in terms of the uh question you were asking around sort of the early career stage, uh we're seeing, I guess, more than anything, a shift in the um in the way uh we on the one end kind of assess the necessary skills, and on the other end, also on the role that graduate programs or apprentices, which is something that I'm personally very uh very invested in, um play. Uh let's not forget now the sort of graduates and apprentices are maybe the first truly sort of AI native generation. No, so I was an AI native. I I love to play on Commodore 64 and Amiga for those in the audience that should remember those computers. Uh, we then witnessed you know the um millennials who are so-called digital native, but now we're looking at you know, courts um that are other school leavers or just finishing university who are fundamentally AI native because they've been dealing with AI for the last probably four or five years constantly, right? And they are on the one, firstly, the best ambassadors for AI transformation, because for them it's just natural, is that that's that that is what they do, uh, and be the perfect sort of people to really absorb this concept of consultant uh 2.0, right? Because they know how to leverage AI natively, to get rid of maybe doing very lengthy reports or um incredibly, you know, spending maybe days or if not weeks uh doing research on the internet, they can accelerate that enormously and already from the early stage of their careers focusing on the uh on the value. Yeah. I'll ask myself a follow-up question, which I can answer. Um, you know, that uh consulting has been kind of historically or broadly um uh across companies very much a sort of pyramid model and sort of in at the top of the seniors and very large at the bottom. Uh that is not been, however, in my mind, uh true uh for every consulting because it depends also on the value proposition for the clients. So um, if I think at our company, for instance, we've always been um, you know, the ingenuity firm, right? The innovation and transformation firm. And our clients come to us for the most complex problems. They come to us to find solutions to something that they themselves or even sometimes some of our competitors have failed to uh to resolve. That is our brand. This is what YPA is known for. Uh, and therefore, historically, the concentration has been on the value creation. Historically, the concentration has been on the most expert advice. So we never truly, frankly, adopted a uh pure sort of pyramid, uh pyramid model uh where you have you know the one partner, one sort of senior consultant, and then an army of graduates. It's never been our model because it's never what different has been differentiating us in the market. We differentiate because uh we can solve complex problems and we have deep market experience and and knowledge. So it hasn't perhaps revolutionized the way we SPA kind of think. Um, but it what it has given us is a new cohort of brilliant people who are AI native. They can be ambassadors for us and can help us deliver value even faster.
SPEAKER_00How do you take that? I I you know I totally get that point you say that we've got this new talent coming in that's you know AI native first. You know, that's not necessarily the generation I'm part of. So how do you make sure that you are getting the people? I mean, I'm I'm hearing from companies that actually their challenge actually of talent in some situations is more the chat talent at the middle and the top that's not embracing AI and not learning from it. Like, where do you see that balance and where do you see some of the opportunities or challenges within that?
SPEAKER_01So I break your question into two. I guess there's one around kind of how do you make sure that you get the right talent that's coming in the funnel, right? So at the sort of graduate apprentice level, and then there's another one, how do you bring the rest uh on board effectively? So on the first one, I think uh there is a gradual uh shift from uh what maybe back in the day was almost a I would say 80, 70, 80% technical assessment, 20, 30 percent um soft skills, uh to uh effectively almost a raw reversal. Um I don't look as much at the um technical ability, I look at the ability to learn, at the willingness to learn, at the creativity in thinking, at the ability of being good team players, right? Yeah, those are the things that I personally kind of look forward more in a um early career um candidate, right? And um and just expanding on that for a second, uh, one of the reasons why I was mentioning earlier, I'm particularly passionate about apprentices, is because you see that in an even more uh um, so to speak, extreme way, especially those apprentices that are school leaders, right? Just come straight out of uh um their their levels. Um they are super enthusiastic, super passionate about data, uh in my case specifically, uh, and AI. And um and they're almost like a blank sheet of paper, right? So they got enthusiasm, they are bright, uh, they are curious, uh, they think innovatively, and they were almost born with AI. Uh they are the perfect candidates to actually become that consultant, not 2.0, but in their case, probably more like 3 or 4.0. So the next generation of consultants and the next generation of leaders within the organization. So that was the first part. Um, feel free, obviously, to ask me kind of follow-ups if you want. Um, on the other one, that is very critical. So we have um uh unveiled, I'm very proud of that, like a very comprehensive uh set of training depending on various personas that we have within the organizations. So starting from our executive management team into our partners' cohort, into our managing consulting associate partners. So we really, and then all of the consulting grades, and depending also on what you do. Are you, you know, a digital and data um consultant, or are you maybe in People and Change, or are you in design and engineering? Uh, and we have created this in a very deliberate way to ensure that everyone is getting on board, that everyone has um has the right type of training. Uh, but the way we've done it is also open. So if someone wants to expand and get to know more, and you know, for instance, one of the things we are trying to teach everybody in the organization is to build your own agent, your own AI agent.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So that you know, some of the tasks can be uh can be automated, right? Uh, and in fact, we've got some metrics which are quite interesting. So we want all of our partners to learn how to build an agent, for instance. Uh and uh uh and we think that this sort of direct approach um really differentiates us and really uh creates a strong sense of uh uh of belonging. Um, because I mean the world is going in a very clear direction. And uh I don't think I've met anybody, not just within our organization, but in general, that doesn't agree that AI is here, is here to stay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Well, I I don't know, you may not share this, but it'd be interesting to know where you are in terms of your everyone, you know, as you say, all of your partners being able to build their own agent, because I totally agree with that. I've seen other people say that. I think actually every single one of us needs to be able to build our own agents and show that we can we understand and we can adopt AI.
SPEAKER_01Well, funnily enough, we assume that everyone else already does, so it's mostly the partners.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's true. Absolutely. Yes, yeah, absolutely. Um, go back to the beginning, I guess, when you're looking to onboard new talent and apprenticeships. You said that you know, you it's not so much about the technical, it's about creativity and how they learn. I mean, how do you assess that in an individual? And actually, I I somebody um said to me the other day that they felt actually AI was going to take away our creativity and learning. And actually, is that is that generation not uh having that creativity? Because I'm always going to AI to give me the answer to do something. So, how do you really spot that you've this is someone who's got that right talent, that right ability to learn and be creative? What do you do to find that in the candidates that you're looking at?
SPEAKER_01So, first of all, I disagree on the fact that uh AI is gonna kill creativity. I mean, uh, that's not the world anyone wants to live in, frankly. Uh, I'm also a massive fan myself of art and movies and music. Uh, and uh I could not conceive uh a war like that, frankly. I don't want I want to live in it. Uh so uh I genuinely don't think that that's gonna be that that is that is the case. Um creativity comes in with many different forms, like problem solving, for instance, is a form of creativity. Even human relations can be a form of creativity. I mean, I give an example, um, classic sort of interview questions, or tell me problem, uh, tell me a moment where you were struggling in a relationship with somebody, maybe not a kind of sentimental relation, more rather in a professional uh context, and um how did you resolve it? Right, because sometimes it's creativity, sometimes it's emotional. Um uh sometimes it's creativity, sometimes uh is just EQ. Uh, but the important uh the important thing is how do you get to the solution of the problem? And you know, in consulting, a lot of what we do uh is also about people, it's about building relationships, is about working with colleagues, working with clients. And frankly, I mean, uh everyone's got their scars, I guess, on in the in that respect. So, how do you resolve those conflicts? How do you get around uh um some um some difficulties that can that can just come your way? Uh again, you can ask AI, but I wouldn't trust that you need to see what the real experience is, how you would go about that. And that for me is also from a creativity.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I agree with you. I'm not one of these cynics, but there's definitely people out there that think that you know creativity is gonna die. And I sometimes see it in my teenage son where he goes to AI and asks something, and I'm like, no, you should have sat down and worked out what the answer to that problem was yourself, rather than just going to, you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, my son does the same. It's a it's a good way to kind of shorten uh shorten that's problem sometimes. So no, it's banned to do it homework stuff.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And how long does it take you? I mean, it sounds like you've got a very um well thought out sort of onboarding process for apprenticeships and bringing that talent on board, but how quickly do they turn into a you know a true you know contributor on client work? How quickly are you getting them out to clients and engaged with clients?
SPEAKER_01So um uh so that's a good question because the the the reality for me is that um there are some things that need to be uh they need to be in place to ensure their success, right? So whereas the early stage focus is very much on mindset, on learning ability, on soft skills over technical depth. Um the progressive development, really, in my mind, is about creating that supportive environment. And uh and especially in the early stages, um, I think it's important, frankly, to manage the delivery team's expectations that take the apprentice in particular on board. Um, and there's nothing wrong with that, it's just uh, you know, we need to help them ensuring their growth in the long term. Uh, you know, the an investment on an apprenticeship program lasts uh usually two to three years. Um and uh but the reality is you want them to be our future leaders, as I was saying earlier. So that sort of early stage support environment is really, really important. Um, but the reality is I'm typically quite amazed at what they're able to do. Uh, you know, enthusiasm, as I was saying earlier, creativity, eagerness to learn really, really goes a long way. Yeah, and uh frankly, it's you know, looking at them um it is frankly source of joy. People say I get too excited about it, but uh I I really do, I really do, because when I see someone who's maybe a school leader and uh in less than a year uh speaks confidently in front of a client, but also maybe supports an internal initiative and um you know is smiling and is uh a part of the team like anybody else, for me, that's a source, frankly, of joy. And it's as much obviously down to the individual, but also has to be down to what we do as leaders in creating a support environment that really helps them, especially in those in those early stages as they build their their confidence in uh um in a consulting organization.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, it's it's really refreshing to talk to someone that has that energy and enthusiasm for you know new talent coming in and how creative I think you know that generation can be with the help of AI and technology. I still think there's so much talk about the challenge of us as a consulting um uh industry having a long term talent gap that's forming in the industry. It sounds like you disagree with that, and actually you see you know the ability to bring in this new talent and that you're not, you know. I guess, do you agree with that in terms of you know some of the people framing that there is a long-term talent gap forming in this industry? Who's gonna become the next you um you know in in 10, 20 years' time?
SPEAKER_01I think the next mean 10, 20 years, is gonna be much better than me. But that's one thing that I can absolutely assure you of. Um no, I I I I mean, you you guess right. I I don't agree with this idea of the long-term uh talent gap. I I think that the talent is gonna change, the type of talent is gonna change, right? So AI definitely is gonna lead to a different form of talent rather than a long-term talent gap, right? So when we think in terms of um, you know, AI augmented workforce, consultant, uh uh 2.0, etc., um, that's gonna lead ultimately, I think, to even better consultants, right? And uh uh the things that are gonna change is you know what we look at in terms of uh uh hiring practices and um hiring needs, back to the point we were discussing earlier, right? I don't see necessarily this uh these huge talent gaps. And there's another thing that I believe is important to mention now. Um, you know, if I look back at the last sort of 20 years or so, um, me and my colleagues, um, I would say that roughly 70, 80 percent of people that were in consulting sort of stuck in consulting, right? So maybe they move across uh um, you know, uh different organizations, different size organization, but they've fundamentally always been in consulting, sort of career consultants, if you will. I mean, I'm I'm I'm uh I'm uh guilty as charge, for instance, in that case. But what I have witnessed in the last few years um is that the the job market has opened up a lot, right? So uh both in and out, but a lot of the people that, for instance, we're hiring come maybe from a bit from a startup environment, right? Which is something that you know 20 years ago, the 25 years ago wasn't even a thing, really, no, um, from startup, from uh from client to organization, right? So with in-house role into consulting, and uh um and they're very quick at switching, like they're becoming very, very good at adopting the right mindset. Historically, there's always been seen as a little bit of a risk. Um, but I mean, I gotta say a lot of the people that I've been hiring uh lately from the industry um barely had a moment, especially when we're talking about the more junior ranks and the early careers. Like they are very, very quick at adopting. Yeah, so I think this sort of um greater opening in the in the job market and the the the workplaces that kind of is not just consulting from one to the next, but it brings in uh academics, um, startup, um uh in-house sort of client, what we call the client side roles, uh, really is helping uh mixing more the uh the type of talent that we hire. And that's back to the point around kind of how do you assess the right people is inevitably going to change and is already changing, frankly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Does that um pose a risk to us, though, retaining our talent? I mean, I definitely think that you're right, people I think are more open to and want to be able to maybe, you know, rather than being a career consultant staying in one organization or industry, want more, you know, opportunities to learn. Does that lead us to having challenges to retain the talent? The talent that you're investing in now, you ideally want to be in the business in five or ten years' time. Do you think it's harder to retain that talent um across our organizations today?
SPEAKER_01I think um, I mean, yes and no, frankly. Um, there's a bit of a balancing because we're noticing, yes, that that I mean, in terms of turnover, I haven't seen any major shift. If not, it's gone down, frankly, in the last in the last few years, as far as at least my my team is concerned, it's definitely gone down. But um is the values also that are that are changing a little bit. Like um it's maybe a generational um thing as well, but whereas you know, maybe people of our generation are maybe a bit older, very much the job for life sort of thinking, that concept in itself is frankly changed over the over the last few years. However, people value things like how interesting is the job that I'm doing. And frankly, which is something that we at PA particularly care about, how purposeful is the job that I'm doing. You know, uh a lot of the work we do is deliberately um led by purpose, right? But uh social outcomes. Uh it's uh it's about helping, you know, when I'm during COVID, we did uh we were leading the ventilator challenge, right? So managing very complex supply chain to ensure the hospitals had enough ventilators for people with COVID-19. Uh it's purpose-led. So people stick around with companies that give them opportunity to do purposeful work, interesting work, working with you know nice but also interesting people, uh, and they give them opportunities to learn and develop. And uh for instance, the AI conversation we had uh earlier around you know the adoption of tooling is definitely part of that. So being in an organization that doesn't allow you to use AI in your day job, um obviously it's less attractive than an organization that says, okay, you can be your best self and we're gonna enable you to do so. So that's why uh whereas on the one end, I guess uh directionally the job for life idea has inevitably changed with a society evolves, on the other end, people do stick around when um you know they're able to do these things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. You've talked a few times about this idea of the consultant 2.0 or maybe even consultant 3.0. If you were to summarize to the audience, what's looking maybe you know, three years, five years down the line, what do you think you know a consultant looks like?
SPEAKER_01That's a very good question because um it's hard to predict what technology is gonna be you know leading in five years five years from now, no, um, and what uses you know we're gonna we're gonna make of it. But I I mean back to the original point, I guess my definition of a consultant 2, 3, 4.0 is effectively an augmented consultant. So it's a consultant that has a number of um of tooling uh at their disposal uh to be able to be better at doing the fun part, so be better at the value generation, be better at the thinking, the creative thinking, at the innovative thinking. The tooling that they're gonna use is probably gonna change, most likely is gonna change. You know, um a year ago was all about LLMs, or maybe a year and a half ago, now it's all about agents. In three years' time, I'm pretty positive it's gonna be something else. Yeah, but that uh that doesn't change really what the role of a consultant is gonna be. So this sort of augmented uh AI quantum possibly soon enable consultant that does the fun bit, does the creative, does the um uh the relationship? And that for me it is not fundamentally going to change.
SPEAKER_00Is there anything that you do at PA consulting or any advice you could give to leaders? Like how do you keep it, you know, fun and creative? And how do you keep that, you know, how do what do you do to build your culture around that and make sure that people feel that they are doing something? It's great that you've been able to give people purposeful work, but I think how do you drive that culture at PA um around those those values of um you know creative thinking, you know, continuous learning, etc.?
SPEAKER_01Frankly, by living it. It's uh there's no there's no other way. It's about um it's about kind of showing by doing, right? Um, it's about the type of jobs that you go after, for instance, when you bid for something, is the type of conversation that you have um with your clients. And that per me it's the way we are. I mean, uh, I'll give you I give an example. When I joined the firm uh within a week, I went to our GITC or Global Innovation Technology Center in Cambridge, which by the way uh is uh having its uh 50th anniversary uh this month. So that's uh and uh in GITC, uh a lot of the work we do, we bring together engineers, um chemistry and physics PhDs, um, and uh we build things, we come up with new concepts for our clients and build prototypes and uh uh uh and uh um tell them how to scale them up. And this sort of work permits the culture of the company, right? And um, so back to your question, it's it's about doing it, it's about living it. And um, you know, we our motto is bring ingenuity to life uh to build a positive human future. So ingenuity, innovation, and uh uh and purposeful work are the main drivers of what we do. Um, and I could give you countless examples of that, but it really is something that you feel in the company.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. Well, I hope you've got something special planned for the 50th anniversary, but there's not lots of an issue. I should imagine so. One thing you talked about there, which resonated is this idea of like bringing teams together, like bringing engineers together, you know, bringing different teams together. And I've was talking to someone the other day, and they talked about actually even our our structure of our organizations is probably going to change and that maybe moving to more sort of pods or you know, smaller groups of people that bring that talent together, working on solving a specific you know, value or outcome that we need to drive, versus having these sort of you know, traditional management hierarchies and sort of separate, you know, teams. Do you see that changing?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Uh absolutely. I mean, uh, we always say we have we are the best when we bring the best of PA together, right? Um and what I'm seeing even now is not just you know how we deliver work, right? So it's very much big take data or data analytics, you know, you can uh apply analytics on the edge or AI on the edge on a piece of um, I don't know, on a toothbrush, right? Uh just to give a silly example, uh, or an industrial uh machinery. Um, and you need to work together, right? With people that understand the process, with people that understand the mechanics of it, uh, with people that understand data, right? And um this has gone on for a while, but I think it's been dramatically accelerated. So, to the point that one of the things that um um you know we we do for our clients is uh is around uh what we call adaptive strategy and and co creation labs. So we are much more uh now focusing on giving our clients um square. Quads effectively to very quickly get to value, right? And these quads contain uh they're not slides, uh, you know, you you really work uh uh in a creative way using vibe coding to really um uh produce something quickly for a client. So you bring together, you know, data scientists, uh strategists, growth uh strategists, economists, uh, uh people in change, and uh people in change are experts, and you really create these squads that create what the client ultimately wants, which is business value, right? And the more you know you do this, the more we we are doing this, the more we're seeing clients being real receptive.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I definitely think client expectations are changing. I mean, I think in terms of you know, yeah, they're going up continuously. I think not only in terms of how you package and price services now, I think that's a whole it's probably different discussion, but I think there's a whole look at how do we price on value and outcomes. But I think you know, that rapid time to value and bringing it to life, you know, I don't want to see lots of presentations and slides show me what that looks for. Are there other areas that you're seeing client expectations evolve or change?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think I think that the main one is around the value, you know, as you were saying, is is much more focused on that. Uh whether that translates uh to kind of how they want to arrange commercial is a very different question depending on the client. But uh there's definitely much more focus on the business value than it never was. And um, and I think you're right, the expectations have gone up uh in in the last period, which is fine, and it frankly is fair, uh, because we are able to do to do more, right? Because we are becoming more and more you know augmented consultants. So it is it is fair expectation that uh that we do that and we produce more in less time, right? Um uh the other expectation, I guess, that that's changed, and I think it's happened only very recently, is an understanding that um AI is not necessarily the cure for everything and it does not happen overnight. I think that which is a good thing, right? So the the the the period of the uh of the great enthusiasm of oh the AI is gonna do it, so let's do it, and then you know, back to my intelligent foundation point, um, then it proves that it's not quite as simple as that, right? And seeing more and more clients understanding that is actually, I think, quite refreshing because it's uh it's an understanding of um kind of not just pragmatism, but how AI works ultimately, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We've we've we've sort of talked about lots of things, Jean-Luca, in terms of you know how talent's changing, the importance of data, how we're using technology across our businesses. Um, I guess if you had to summarize perhaps the new playbook for growing and building a consulting firm in this AI era, what would be you know the top sort of core principles that you think people need to get right and really focus in on?
SPEAKER_01So I will probably um have three. So one is around um pick when you're hiring to pick the right people and pick them based on uh um their soft skills as well as the technical, but focus on the soft skills because they can always learn the technical, the soft can be harder, right? Um secondly, um give them as much tools as they possibly can whilst not forgetting that there are ethical and security constraints that need to be taken into account. And uh I would say thirdly, be very deliberate in uh thinking of your organization as an AI augmented organization. Uh, be very clear that all uh levels of the organization need to be part of that and embrace it. Uh otherwise you're gonna create a um a divide that is gonna be very hard to fill.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Everything is moving so quickly though. How do you, maybe on a personal level, how do you keep up with everything? How do you make sure that you're AI native and that you are keeping up with the technology changes and everything that's changing with it?
SPEAKER_01Well, um, you know, luckily I'm on I have a bit of a front row seat. So, you know, a lot of it happens through the type of work that we do. And uh, you know, so I working with uh people who are frankly way better than me at like coding or analyzing data uh and so on. I have no shame in in admitting that uh uh you learn a lot by kind of just working on progress on project, but also um read online. I would recommend everyone to keep very much uh very much up to speed, try and um understand what's just hype, and maybe where there's something actually real underneath that maybe it's brewing. Um and uh don't just take anything at face value. I would say, I mean, there's uh there is a lot of uh especially LinkedIn, uh, you know, there's a lot of posts about this and that, and uh it becomes a bit overwhelming, frankly. So um I would invite everyone to kind of take their time to read, but also um uh but also to uh to make sure that they did they sieve all the information because it it can be absolutely uh overwhelming.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. Um when we think about again our audience, you know, being you know, people like ourselves that are out there running or leading, you know, consulting teams and and companies, what do you think would be a great topic for a future podcast? Or what do you think are some of the challenges that we should be discussing as leaders in this industry, uh moving, you know, in terms of what you see as some of the key challenges over the next sort of six to twelve months?
SPEAKER_01So uh challenges are in the six to twelve months. So I think that there is um there is something to be to be said about uh kind of our clients, right? And how do we um how do we help our clients kind of change also the way they uh they think their relationship with consultants in terms of uh um uh you know advisory versus just do this. And uh because I think that whilst it has changed a lot, and uh, you know, especially depending on you know what type of consulting you are, uh, for instance, we are very much on the sort of advisory side, uh, but there is um there is a it's important that clients also understand that our businesses are changing and you know how how that gets reflected.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's a great point of view because I think often we think about ourselves as organizations, we're putting ourselves into the client view, and how do we change clients' expectations of actually how they will leverage you know our businesses moving forwards? Well, it's been great to speak to you. Thanks for you know all the insight. Um Jean-Luca, how can people get in touch with you? I mean, obviously you've shared lots of insight today, but in terms of continuing that discussion and and continuing to sort of get insight from you, how can people get in touch with you?
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, the easiest way is very simply to LinkedIn. So there are than many John Luca Barletta working for PA Consulting, I gotta admit. Uh I'm the one. So uh yeah, please do get in touch with uh with LinkedIn through LinkedIn or through our website at PAConsulting.com, um, where you can also maybe explore a little bit you know some of the things we're doing, the people within the teams, and uh how we uh how we bring in Genevieve Live.
SPEAKER_00So fantastic. Thank you, Jean-Luca. It's been fantastic to speak to you. I think it's been refreshing to be honest to hear someone that's so enthusiastic about actually what AI is bringing, the talent that we've got, you know, coming into you know our organization. So, you know, thanks for taking the time and sharing your insight um on the podcast.
SPEAKER_01Thank you very much, uh Sarah, for having me.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for listening to the Leaders in Consulting Podcast. To learn from and grow with fellow consulting leaders in person, apply to join our monthly confidential forums and peer-to-peer coaching groups in your city. Visit leaders inconsulting.com for details.
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