Tanya and Maurice

Welcome to the return of the "True Tales By Disability Advocates" podcast! In Episode 24, hosts MsBoye, Jennifer McKinney, and Adam Griebel hear multiple stories from Tanya Winters about "Maurice," the arm of her friend Susie Angel that has its own personality. This episode was recorded in September of 2024, and it will be the last episode hosted by Ms Boye due to her unfortunate passing. In Ms Boye's final episode she, Jennifer, and Adam discuss with Tanya about remembering our friends who have passed, learning to love your own body, and how important dance can be in expressing your disability.

Links

Art Spark Dance

DanceAbility International

Click here to listen with the full transcript

For more details about our programs go to Art Spark Texas, True Tales Podcast Page.

Transcript

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Kristen Gooch 0:09

Welcome to True Tales by Disability Advocates Podcast, authentic voices of people thriving with disabilities, where individuals use the art of storytelling to change the world.

John Beer 0:22

The True Tales by Disability Advocates Podcast is produced by Arts Park Texas Speaking Advocates Program. A free virtual training is open to people of all disabilities, no matter where you live.

Kamand Alaghehband 0:35

Keep listening to hear how life's challenges can spark the desire to speak out and advocate for yourself and others.

Kurt Wilkinson 1:06

But I am sad to say that she could not finish it because Miss Boy passed away in November of 2024. We at Artspark Texas apologize for this unplanned hiatus. We have decided to continue the podcast and finish season three over a year later out of respect for the work Miss Boy put into this podcast and the passion she had for disability advocacy. This will be Miss Boy's last episode, but our next episode will contain a full tribute to the life of Miss Boy and others that we have recently lost. But for now, presenting this episode of the True Tales by Disability Advocates Podcast, I give you the late Miss Boy.

Ms. Boye 2:01

Hello, you're listening to the True Tales by Disability Advocates Podcast, Changing the World One Story at a Time. This is the show where advocates harness the power of storytelling to build community with their peers and develop empathy in others. Hello everyone. I'm Miss Boy. I'm Jennifer McKinney. I'm Adam Griebel. And we are your hosts for season three. I had so much fun recording that session with Juan. Big part of his life was his wife, Suzy, Susie Angel, and I really wanted to have some way of honoring her. And when we recorded that episode, it was too fresh for Juan to talk about it much, quite understandably. Sure, sure. Yeah. So one of the things that made me think of our guests is that I've been watching the Paralympics. And I don't know if y'all saw the opening ceremony. So much of that ceremony was this awesome dance routines. I just loved them. They were just awesome. And the commentator was talking about how the choreographer said that he didn't want to do choreography that included people with disabilities. He wanted to do choreography that couldn't have been done without people with disabilities.

Adam Griebel 3:24

Yeah, that sounds great.

Ms. Boye 3:26

Yeah, it was really cool. And whenever I see dance like that, I think of people like our next guest because I think of her and Susie as dancers, because they are. That's how they are it filed in my brain. And she is the perfect example of the philosophy of inclusive dance. Adam, you know this guest, right? And you knew Susie?

Adam Griebel 3:51

Yes. Yes, I did.

Ms. Boye 3:53

What did you think about it?

Adam Griebel 3:55

Well, I always wanted, uh I would have enjoyed performing with Susie, but I I saw them perform, but was never able to actually perform with her. Mm-hmm.

Ms. Boye 4:07

Yeah, she was really funny, right?

Adam Griebel 4:09

Beautiful person, funny.

Ms. Boye 4:11

Yeah, brilliant writer.

Jennifer McKinney 4:13

The next story is one of hers, and it really demonstrates both of those things.

Ms. Boye 4:19

Absolutely. I mean, it didn't feel right to have a season honoring actual live stories without this particular story. And our next guest was the perfect person to read it for us. Before we completely introduce you to her, I'm gonna read from her Facebook page. It says, I'm fun, loving, and down to earth. I love to laugh. In fact, I'm a little eccentric. I enjoy giving back to my community. I love dance, art, and acting. I'm compassionate and determined. I enjoy the simple things in life. I enjoy helping people believe in themselves.

Adam Griebel 4:53

Perfect! This is gonna be fun. Get ready. Here's some words of wisdom from today's storyteller. Tanya Winters.

Jennifer McKinney 5:03

Welcome, Tanya. Thanks for joining us today. Oh, I'm so excited to be here.

Tanya Winters 5:09

Thanks for having me.

Jennifer McKinney 5:11

Also, thank you for being willing to step up and allow us to bring Susie's story to life. I know the anniversary of her death was a couple weeks ago, and that's always a time of mixed emotions. So we really do appreciate you having the courage to say yes and this chance to honor Susie and her work.

Tanya Winters 5:34

Well, you know, I was just thinking about Susie. You know, I've been thinking about her a lot, and she was a huge part of my life. You know, her one and myself, I really thought we were like the three musketeers, and you know, we really helped each other out. So this is just great to be able to just honor her and be the person to read her story. She was such a great writer and such a fierce advocate, a wonderful dancer, and I miss her terribly. So this is good for me and help my soul.

Ms. Boye 6:11

Wonderful. I'm so glad about that. And I'm so grateful that you said yeah to this idea uh that we had, because I agree with everything you said about that.

Adam Griebel 6:22

Are you ready to read Susie's story, Maurice?

Tanya Winters 6:27

Yes, I'm gonna do the best I can.

Ms. Boye 6:30

It's okay if you get emotional because you know we do real here. So nobody has to mask anything here.

Tanya Winters 6:37

Well, I've I've actually been talking to Susie all morning.

Ms. Boye 6:41

Yay.

Tanya Winters 6:42

I've asked her, I'm I told her I was like, I'm channeling you. You better help me through this. So I know she's here with me right now.

Jennifer McKinney 6:51

That's beautiful.

Adam Griebel 6:54

Great! Stay with us for Maurice by the late Suzy Angel, read to us by her friend and fellow dance revolutionary Tanya Winters.

Tanya Winters 7:07

I'm Tanya Winters, and this is Maurice by my dear, dear friend, Susie Angel. The most complicated part of my body is my right arm. It seems as though it has a mind of its own, and it's getting more and more rebellious as I get older. I started really noticing this about five years ago. One day, when my right arm had done too many things without my permission, my attendant Mary decided to name it Maurice. The earliest stunt that I can recall him pulling was when I was six months old. I was taking a nap in my crib. All of a sudden, mom heard blood curdling cries coming from my room and ran to see what was wrong. Maurice had his fingers entangled in my hair and was pulling as hard as he could. One night, I accidentally rolled over onto my back, and Maurice decided to quabble Juan right across the face at 5 o'clock in the morning. I didn't even feel him do it. All I knew was that for some reason Juan was asking me what he did wrong. I was getting clothes out of one of my drawers one morning and Maurice decided to reach up and hit my alarm clock. Other times I'll be organizing things or folding the piece of paper with my other hand andor feet, and I'll have Maurice tucked behind my back so we can't do anything. If I'm sitting on the floor doing things, Maurice will reach out and knock over whatever is on the floor or grab something. I used to get frustrated when my right arm would do things like this because it made me feel so out of control of my own body. Now that I have a name for it, things are different. It's almost as though I always have a little kid with me, and he's always testing me to see how far I'll let him go.

Adam Griebel 9:28

That was a good story.

Ms. Boye 9:30

It is. I love that story. Having known Susie, I can just imagine that happening, and I I love the idea of having a piece of yourself that doesn't behave the way you want and naming it. And I actually just saw a thing on the Paralympics where they interviewed a whole load of people who have short arms. One arm is short, and um they were asking all these different people, like from kids to adults, do you have a name for your arm? And some of them were like Nubby or My Baby Hand. You know, it was really interesting that uh so many people do that, you know, sure. And it makes total sense to me.

Tanya Winters 10:04

Yeah, I mean, it's so awesome to be able to read that story because I I I just I have a picture of Maurice in my mind now, and I can just remember all the things that he would do. And me myself, I tend to think of my body almost as another part of my personality, and I'm constantly talking to myself, you know, trying to like encourage that brain-body connection or helping my brain out. And it's so important to name it, yeah, to talk to it, because it really does help, yeah, help you get through the way.

Ms. Boye 10:50

I think that's part of like I'm in recovery, and you know, like naming my addict as a part of me, not separate from me, but a separate part of me that doesn't have to be in control that you can control was a big part of you know, coming to terms with who I am.

Jennifer McKinney 11:04

I think on some level I can relate to this story really well because I have like no hand-eye coordination, being visually impaired, yeah, exactly. And as a result, there are days that I'll knock into everything, drop something, or both, and it's just ridiculous. It just happens. So this story touches me that way, yeah.

Ms. Boye 11:29

And I would guess that part of your growing upness is like rather than get annoyed at yourself, is going, all right, here we go again, you know, and being at peace with it.

Tanya Winters 11:40

Yes, definitely. Well, you know, Susie and I had the same disability. We we both have cerebral palsy, and you know, we were both very spastic, you know, our muscles were very tight. And you know, her and I both knew that spasticity can be your best friend and your worst enemy all kind of rolled up into one. Right. And the worst thing you can do is get frustrated with yourself. You you have to find ways to distract yourself, make jokes about it. Sure, sure, you know, um in order to to you know just to deal with it, you know.

Ms. Boye 12:21

Yeah, yeah. I I feel like that too about my ADHD or my autism, like not be ashamed of it or angry at myself, whether it's your situation or my situation or Jennifer's situation, you can walk around with so much shame if you can't make friends with it.

Tanya Winters 12:37

Gotta accept who you are. Well, let's face it, you know, having a disability, quite frankly, is a pain in the ass sometimes. And it's it's really hard, you know, and it's okay to say that. And God knows we've all screamed it more than once in our lives, but you know, we can't stay there.

Ms. Boye 12:57

Yeah.

Tanya Winters 12:58

You know, because it's just a time suck.

Adam Griebel 13:00

Yeah.

Tanya Winters 13:01

And it doesn't really help you.

Adam Griebel 13:03

Material life is a pain in the butt. I have I I I have a tremor and I have physical things like that, not nearly as profound as people with more physical disabilities than mine. But me and Laura live together, so I'm I'm very up close and personal with that.

Ms. Boye 13:26

Right. And I'm sure that I can imagine that because you were in a coma for so long and you had to teach your brain how to do things again, that you went through all stages of having a different relationship with your body than you did before the accident.

Adam Griebel 13:42

Sure. Sure, exactly.

Ms. Boye 13:45

And when you and I were chatting earlier this week, and I asked you to do this story, you started to you you told me about how this piece was uh a great piece in its own right, but also it was a uh a seed to starting much bigger things for both the actual lives group, but also you and your life and dance and the role of dance in your life and all that. And I I'd like for us to talk about that in a minute, but first, would you be willing to read your story that came from your experience of meeting Maurice?

Tanya Winters 14:21

Sure. This is my story, meeting Maurice. I met Suzy's friend Maurice at a dance class. At first glance, he seemed particularly attached to her. I wonder if one knows about him, I thought. I reached out to shake his hand. It was cold and clammy. His fingers were stiff, yet smooth and knobby, like the trunk of a tree. I wondered if he was a Republican. Susie said, grab him by the wrist. It takes him a while to warm up. So I gave Maurice's wrist a good squeeze. It was awkward at first, but I knew if I could just keep the faith, Maurice and I would make a connection. Any friend of Susie's is a friend of mine. The next few seconds seemed to lurch on. Finally, Susie and I engaged in some small talk. Our words went back and forth like a nursery rhyme. Row, row, row your boat gently down the stream. I could see how badly Susie wanted Maurice to join the conversation. Leaning closer, she said, he's usually not this shy. He's the life of the party at home. I followed Susie's lead and leaned in. I kept a firm, steady grip on Maurice's wrist, as if to say, Don't worry, you're safe here. Just when I thought I was getting through, Maurice retreated suddenly. My whole body jerked forward. Hold on, Susie said. Maurice, wait, I thought. It took every effort I had, but I was able to keep a hold of Maurice's fingertips and pull him back into our conversation. Thanks, Susie said. I didn't want to leave yet. Even though I was glad that Maurice decided to stay, I was at a loss. How can I get Maurice to open up? I can tell he has a lot to say. Try holding my other arm and lean this way, Susie said. What if we crossed arms? Do you think Maurice would be more comfortable like that? Let's try it, Susie said. So we did. I couldn't believe my eyes. Maurice opened up and said hello. Hello, I said, by moving my thumb to the middle of Maurice's wrist and giving it a gentle squeeze. I spent the next few moments trying to keep my voice soft and sweet, slowly but surely stroking his palm and fingers. It never ceases to amaze me how much men respond to sticky sweetness. The more we talked, the more we liked each other. Susie's smile was as big as the sun. I got the feeling she'd never seen the sight of him before. I felt so lucky and blessed to be a part of this moment with Susie. It meant a lot to me, since I know how frustrating it can be not to have full control of your body. In the end, Susie Maurice and I agreed that we have a lot in common. Maybe we'll meet for coffee sometime.

Adam Griebel 17:55

Fantastic. I supremely enjoyed hearing that. Susie was such an integral part of our community here in Austin.

Ms. Boye 18:04

You know, you're right. And Sonia, what I love about this is I as I'm not a dancer, not only did it show your sweet insight into Susie and Maurice and their their experience and your connection to the experience, but it showed, it took me into your inner world as a dancer, you know. I think that your way of dancing is all about, you know, responding to each other in however that shows up, and that your choreography is about it comes up naturally, right? It's it's like devised in the moment.

Tanya Winters 18:38

Yeah, for sure. It's it's all about connecting to the sensation of your of your own body and then making relationships with others. And I think, you know, that for Susie and I, it was really powerful to me, you know, I've been living with spasticity all my life, and you know, I I have my own relationship with spasticity, but it was really cool to be able to feel someone else's spasticity and develop a relationship with that, you know, because we get so focused on our own bodies sometimes, you know, making relationships and making connections with other people's bodies can teach us a lot about ourselves and how we move, but also let us know that that we're in good company. I think sometimes, you know, when you have a disability, it's so it can get so individualized. How am I feeling? How's my body responding to me? Um, how am I getting through my day? But when you can make connections with other people, particularly when they have a similar disability as you do, it can really make you feel safe and not and not alone.

Ms. Boye 19:58

Yes, you know, we're

Tanya Winters 20:00

You're not alone. And that's important. I think as an advocate, as a person, as a human, right? You know, we're social beings. We need to make we need to make relationships with other people. And I think for me, dance really helped me do that and really brought me out of my show.

Ms. Boye 20:21

Yep. Yep. Yeah. Tell us how that impacted your life at Dance and impacted dance in Austin. You telling me the story of that.

Tanya Winters 20:32

This story and Susie's story about Maurice, it really kickstarted, I believe, body shift and art spark dance. Because I was just a new dancer. You know, when Susie and I did this, I was still taking classes. I I hadn't even taken danceability yet. And I was at ACC relatively new. It ended ended up being a a true foundation to helping me reach out and challenge myself. Because sometimes, you know, unless we have a strong foundation, we may be less willing to challenge ourselves and go beyond our boundaries. And I think that having relationships like this, you know, having actual wives and Susie as my foundation really gave me the courage to expand myself as a dancer. I don't know if I really would have if I just decided one day to join up at ACC and I didn't have actual wives, and I and I didn't have Susie, you know, with me, because I I really feel like Susie started as a dancer too because of this. We were encouraging each other. I I don't know if I would have stuck with dance as long as I did. If it was just like, oh, you know, I remember having this dream of being a dancer. Let me start with ACC.

Ms. Boye 22:08

Right. It became a big thing for Juan and Susie together. I mean, I remember the first time I really ever spoke to them, Juan was like telling me I was trying to practice up my social skills, I guess, and I was asking questions about them because, you know, that's never natural for me, partly because I'm English and partly just, you know, because I'm an introvert or whatever. And and the first thing he told me was that he he was a dancer. That's how he introduced himself. And that he worked, particularly with men with disabilities, to become dancers and let their inner dancer out. But you mentioned a couple of things. You mentioned um body shift, which I think a lot of people listening might not know about, and also the kind of training you did. Could you just tell us a little bit of about that before we move on to something else? I think it's important that people understand what those are.

Tanya Winters 22:55

This this is my understanding, but body shift was more of the performance group of ArtSpark Dance. Okay. We started with performance, where we would do these performances out in public, making sure people saw us. And then danceability is an inclusive dance method that was created by Alito Alesi. It's all about these four principles: sensation, relationship, time, and design. It's not even really focused on disability, it's focused on getting all bodies of all shapes and sizes into movement. But when you look at these four principles, what I love about it is that, you know, we can take these four principles, sensation, relationship, time, and design, and we can actually put them into our real lives. And we can actually use these four principles to engage each other as humans.

Ms. Boye 24:05

Oh, that's so cool. And body shift, I know that one of the things of body shift is I can't remember what the performance, the technical name for that kind of performance is, but it's it's like street performance. I mean, you put yourselves in places you didn't like you did do stage performances, but mostly um I remember seeing you outside cinemas or at the Capitol or that one piece that you've done for years where you all sit still and then suddenly move, I mean, then move really slowly, and it's all about being seen, right? Not being hidden.

Tanya Winters 24:38

Yeah, yeah. It's definitely Body Shift, you know, not only was it a dance performance group, but really an advocacy group, because everything that we did was out in public and was all about taking what was happening in the environment and bringing movement into it, but having it be really natural and spur the moment. And because of this, it was about advocacy, it was about disability rights. We wanted people to see us, right? You know, we wanted people to see different bodies moving. Yeah, it's so important because when we think about disability and we think about how disability is portrayed in the media, where you've got, like, let's say you've got a show going on, right? And then you've got that one person with the one disability that just you know flies by the screen, and and there you go, we recovered people with disabilities. You know, body shift was all about breaking down those barriers and being like, we're more than the one person shooting through the screen at one time, you know, we're people and we're here.

Ms. Boye 25:51

Right. I remember Susie telling me, or maybe it was Silver, um, who's another member, told me about people with disabilities or people who show up as different in the world get really used to being stared at. And that idea of deliberately putting yourself in a place where people have to look at you and dance with whatever shows up with them emotionally.

Jennifer McKinney 26:14

Well, I was thinking it was beautiful, but how does this connect to Austin Community College, ACC?

Tanya Winters 26:20

I also wrote a piece called Dancing Queen, and this was a piece about how I love to dance and how I love to W-sit. For those of you that don't know about W-Sitting, it's basically where you're you're sitting kind of back, you're not sitting on your heels, but you're sitting with your bottom on the floor and your your knees and your hips are kind of they're kind of is it when you you sit, your feet go back behind you, so your legs look like a W? Yeah.

Ms. Boye 26:52

Okay.

Tanya Winters 26:53

Yeah, it's it's kind of like kindergartners might sit. But doctors don't like how don't like how that is. Okay. Right? They don't want you to sit like that because they don't want you to dislocate your hips. So doctors made it so I could no longer sit like that. Oh um, they they cut my muscles so that I couldn't sit back like that. So I stopped dancing. Oh no. And Alison Orr saw this. Alison Orr is is with a dance company called Fork Lip Dance Works. And she saw me read this piece, and she's the one who said, This is a dance piece. Okay. And I said, Are you insane? I I I can't get on the floor anymore. I can't, Debbie said, How am I gonna do this? So she encouraged me to start dancing, and because body shift and art spark dance hadn't started yet, I had to go somewhere. So she encouraged me to go to ACC. That is so cool, that's a beautiful story. Do you still dance? I do, I love movement. I'll tell you, I miss elements and I I miss body shift, and I'm I'm hoping that we start again.

Jennifer McKinney 28:13

And that's through Art Spark, Texas.

Tanya Winters 28:16

Yes, it is through Art Spark. If Celia is listening right now, please bring elements back. Bring body shift back. Let's perform again.

Jennifer McKinney 28:27

Well, that sounds like a very important cry for help and cry for everyone to act upon, or at least Celia and whoever else is involved in body shift.

Tanya Winters 28:40

Well, I think it's important. Body shift and art spark dance is important because you know, a lot of us with disabilities, we grew up in physical therapy. You know, we're so used to physical therapy, and you know, that's part of our lives. But as we age and get older, physical therapy, we don't get as much of it, right? Our insurance doesn't pay for it. Right. Insurance doesn't cover it as much. Right, right. So dance is a form of movement, and it it really helps you and gives you that physical movement that you may not have otherwise.

Ms. Boye 29:19

Yeah, and that that form of dance that you do is so accessible and will be so good for seniors to do, you know, or anybody to do. Yeah, because it doesn't require taking 15 types of different classes or learning very specific moves. It's about moving with how you move naturally, right?

Tanya Winters 29:37

And making that connection, tapping into this that sensation of how your body moves can be so empowering.

Ms. Boye 29:46

Yeah.

Tanya Winters 29:47

When you feel that power and you feel your body making those movements, a lot of people with disabilities or or older people or anybody, you may not know that otherwise.

Jennifer McKinney 30:01

Yeah. Well, this has been a very enlightening conversation. Yep. I have one other quick question for you that's a little off the topic, but it's on the topic still. First of all, thank you for reading your stories, and of course, Susie Angel story as well, and being here today. Secondly, how would you describe yourself in three words? Oh man, three words.

Tanya Winters 30:33

Compassionate, renegade, and advocate.

Jennifer McKinney 30:39

I like it. I think just from talking to you today, that really sums you up. Thank you. You're welcome.

Ms. Boye 30:46

Brilliant. I like I agree with Jennifer on that.

Adam Griebel 30:49

Tanya, I love your presence. I I I I I'd love to work with you again and be great.

Tanya Winters 30:56

Well, we we all know how important actual lives have been. I mean, after all these years, I was, you know, only a member for the last few years, you know. Um, but actual lives went on for so many years and were so powerful to everybody involved.

Adam Griebel 31:16

Sure.

Tanya Winters 31:17

And I mean, still to this day, I think of actual lives. I would love to get together with you again, Adam, and and have a reunion, man. It would be awesome.

Adam Griebel 31:28

Sure.

Tanya Winters 31:29

Yeah. To just be with everybody again, and because we've we've all changed, but but it's things like actual lives and art spark dance and body shift and all the programming that ArtSpark Texas does. It really helps people and moves people out of their shelves and helps them do more in their lives than they ever thought they could.

Ms. Boye 31:54

Yeah.

Jennifer McKinney 31:55

I second that. ArtSpark Texas is a great organization. And if anyone wants to get involved, they can find us at Artsparktx.org.

Ms. Boye 32:09

Or find us on Facebook or Instagram. I want to ask you one last thing, Tonya. If you could say something to your younger self about the role of dance in your life, or is there anything you'd like to say to folks out there who um either might have their own Maurice or they have a secret inner dance inside waiting to come out and they've never really had the courage to do it?

Tanya Winters 32:29

I would tell them now's the time. Now's the time. I know that it seems like, you know, we've got able-bodied people and then we've got disabled people, you know, and and there's there's this hard line between us, right? We like to think that way because as humans, we like to put things in boxes and we like to compartmentalize, right?

Ms. Boye 32:55

Right.

Tanya Winters 32:55

But everybody does things a little bit differently. Nobody puts their pants on the exact same way, right? We're all a little bit different. So don't be afraid to get out there to try things. The first time I went to my first ACC class, nobody expected anybody with a disability to be in that class. I had to just show up. And the dance teachers were like, How do we how do we do this?

Ms. Boye 33:28

Right.

Tanya Winters 33:28

How are we supposed to treat you? I said, honestly, truly, I don't really know, but we're gonna figure it out together. And we did. So all I can say is show up, show up and do it now. I mean, don't wait. Right. Way to go. If you're afraid, we all have a circle of support. We all have those people that we go to, you know. Go to those people, ask them for support. But the the first thing you have to do is push yourself out of your comfort zone. Okay, cool.

Jennifer McKinney 34:04

Well, thank you for coming today and talking to us and sharing stories. It it was amazing.

Tanya Winters 34:11

Yeah, I'm so I'm so happy. Thank you for inviting me. It's been wonderful to remember Susie and to be here with Adam and just you know remember actual lives and remember body shift. And these are very important times in my life and helped me be the person I am now.

Adam Griebel 34:34

Yes, indeed.

Tanya Winters 34:36

Bye, thank you.

Jennifer McKinney 34:38

Bye, thank you.

Ms. Boye 34:40

Ciao.

Jennifer McKinney 34:41

Bye, thank you.

Ms. Boye 34:43

You're welcome. Thank you for listening to the third season of True Tales by Disability Advocates Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, oh, please share it with your friends and talk about us on social media. If you're feeling particularly adventurous, consider leaving us a review on Facebook or even on your favorite podcast platform. And of course, don't forget to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Goodbye, everybody, and have a wonderful day.

Kurt Wilkinson 35:12

Thank you, Miss Boy. I'm very glad that I can help revive this podcast that meant so much to you. I bet you would be proud. Goodbye.

Kamand Alaghehband 35:24

All episodes of the True Tales by Disability Advocate Podcast are free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and anywhere you get your podcasts.

Kristen Gooch 35:45

To learn more about the Speaking Advocates program, sign up for our newsletter at artspartex.org. That's A R T S P A R K T S dot O R T