12 Days of Giving Day 3: Financial Infidelity Exposed - Why Your Partner Hides Money & How to Heal Together

Ever wondered if your partner is hiding financial secrets? You're not alone. In Day 3 of our "12 Days of Giving" series, renowned Marriage & Family Therapist Ashley Quamme shares a raw, eye-opening story of how a hidden $20,000 credit card nearly destroyed a seemingly perfect marriage. Through the lens of "Norm and Jean's" journey, discover why financial infidelity can feel just as devastating as an affair – and more importantly, how couples can heal and grow stronger together.

This powerful episode uncovers:

• The shocking truth about why partners keep financial secrets
• How childhood money stories silently shape our adult relationships
• Real strategies for rebuilding trust after financial betrayal
• Why the "money person" vs. "non-money person" dynamic can be dangerous
• Practical steps for creating healthy financial communication

Whether you're struggling with financial secrets or want to prevent them, this conversation offers hope and practical guidance for building a wealthy marriage – in both money and trust.

Visit https://www.beyondthefp.com/ for more insights on navigating complex financial relationships, and explore comprehensive financial planning resources at https://www.planningandbeyond.com/.

Hosted by Stoy Hall, CFP®, this episode challenges the traditional financial planning conversation by diving deep into the emotional and behavioral aspects of money in relationships. Join us for an honest, judgment-free discussion about one of the most common – yet least talked about – challenges modern couples face.

Follow us to continue your journey through the "12 Days of Giving" series, where we're transforming lives one conversation at a time.

As always we ask you to comment, DM, whatever it takes to have a conversation to help you take the next step in your journey, reach out on any platform!

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DISCLOSURE: Awards and rankings by third parties are not indicative of future performance or client investment success. Past performance does not guarantee future results. All investment strategies carry profit/loss potential and cannot eliminate investment risks. Information discussed may not reflect current positions/recommendations. While believed accurate, Black Mammoth does not guarantee information accuracy. This broadcast is not a solicitation for securities transactions or personalized investment advice. Tax/estate planning information is general - consult professionals for specific situations. Full disclosures at www.blackmammoth.com.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Financial Behavioral Therapy
• 2:57 Understanding Financial Infidelity
• 5:58 The Story of Norm and Jean
• 9:09 The Impact of Childhood Money Stories
• 12:12 Navigating Financial Betrayal
• 14:57 Healing and Communication in Relationships
• 18:10 Taking the First Steps Towards Change
• 20:54 Advice for Financial Advisors
• 24:52 The Future of Financial Therapy

Transcript

Stoy Hall, CFP® (00:00.671)
Happy holidays, everybody. Another episode of 12 days of giving in today since you all were with your families or at least dealing with family drama and holidays. Why wouldn't we bring a therapist on specifically that one is really a badass. She's been on before, you know this, but also from a financial behavioral standpoint and working through those issues. Why wouldn't we bring Ashley back on? Right? Welcome back. I was like your third or fourth episode. Welcome back.

Ashley Quamme (00:29.742)
Big Star is going to be here with you always.

Stoy Hall, CFP® (00:32.499)
It's always fun. It's always fun. But really, this this time of the year is important. That's why we do the 12 days of giving is we want people to kind of slow down and think through their their life, their situation, whatever it may be. Right? Some of us might be going through some marital stuff, some financial stuff, some just personal journey stuff. And that's really what we wanted to to address and to attack. And I believe the stories that you're about to talk through are going to hit people.

of in that gut and make them realize that. Now the ultimate part of this is not to like, belittle them and make them feel like they're the only ones going through this. It's the exact opposite. We want to highlight it, we want you to understand you're not alone. Like, there's a lot of people going through things. And guess what, there's a lot of resources for you. And one of them being you, one of them being me and the colleagues that we have to help you on your journey. So without further ado, let's jump into one of those gut punching stories.

Ashley Quamme (01:29.838)
Yeah, yeah, happy to share a little bit more. So maybe if for some of you, I guess, I love how you assume that everyone just probably knows who I am and like what I do. That's very gracious of you. But just for a bit of context, you're so kind. For a bit of context here, I've been practicing in the couples and family space as a marriage and family therapist for almost 15 years now.

Stoy Hall, CFP® (01:41.917)
Eh? Well, I mean, you are the...

Ashley Quamme (01:57.846)
I'm specializing really solely in couples. So when it comes to stories around couples, I don't want to arrogantly say that I've heard it all because I have no doubts that there are probably a few stories, themes, issues out there that I have not run across. I don't want to say that I've heard it all, but I will say I have heard a lot. I've heard a lot.

And much of what I have heard and been talking about and working on specifically in the last year, at least since you and I recorded, is around this concept of financial infidelity. that might be like a, mean, it may already be a gut punch just hearing me say financial infidelity. But in the last year,

I've had countless couples that I have either seen from a financial therapy place or worked with advisors where that issue has come up. So I'd love story maybe to kind of share just a little bit more about that. And some of the reason is we're in the holiday season right now and

with the holiday season typically comes a lot of spending. And so, you know, I'd love to just shed some light with, you know, however many client stories we kind of get into, but with this theme centered around financial infidelity. And while it is not a healthy dynamic in a coupleship,

I also want to normalize that if this is happening in your relationship, you're not alone. It's common. It's becoming more and more common. And if any of what I share we talk about today like resonates, I hope maybe that it inspires some action or further just research. So I want to just kind of preface kind of the stories or conversation just with

Ashley Quamme (04:26.848)
with that. I hope that's okay.

Stoy Hall, CFP® (04:29.021)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Ashley Quamme (04:32.14)
Awesome, awesome. let's get into it. What kind of is financial infidelity? When I talk about financial infidelity, and then I'm gonna go straight into a couple, we're gonna call them Norm and Jean. So their names, identities, all of that has been changed for confidentiality reasons. So we're gonna call them Norm and Jean today, at least this story.

Before we get into Norman Gene's story, financial infidelity is really about intentionally keeping financial secrets from your partner. And so the key word here is intentional. We are intentionally keeping financial secrets from our partner. And that can look like a lot of different things. It does not mean that you are cheating on your partner.

We hear that word infidelity and I think our brains naturally go to having, you know, maybe an extramarital relationship and that is not the case. And I think Norman Jean's story today will kind of give some insight into it's not just about having another partner, you know, out there. This is really about gatekeeping, secret keeping, and it's done in an intentional way. So who are Norman Jean? Norman Jean, they are a pretty

Typical couple in many many ways. They're in their 40s early 40s They have three kids And they live in suburbia usa so, you know just for some just kind of basic demographics here and Norm and jean they're both professionals. So they're both professionals kind of working in in the professional space and they reached out to me because

Norm had discovered that there was some extensive credit card debt and the credit card debt was done by Gene, his wife. And Norm had no idea. He had no idea that this was being done. Essentially, if we're talking numbers here, Gene had racked up some credit card debt on a card that she kept from Norm.

Ashley Quamme (06:55.948)
And it was around 15 to $20,000 that she had racked up over the course of two years. So Norm discovers this, he finds out about it and they go looking for what do we do because this isn't great, not only from a financial standpoint, but Gene's kept this information from him. So they reach out to me and they're looking for support in this area.

Norm and Jean prior to this, they have this interesting couple dynamic pattern. And it's one that's pretty common. You've probably seen it too. The pattern here is that Norm is the big kind of visionary financial person in the relationship, right? He handles and he's in charge of kind of the bigger aspects of the financial plan, if you will.

Jean is more of the day-to-day manager. She handles the family, the kids, the expenses that come with it, buying Christmas gifts, buying clothes. She is that day-to-day manager around the finances. And beyond just their roles financially, there's also this interesting kind of communication pattern. And the communication pattern is that they just don't talk about money.

just don't talk about it, right, between the two of them. And I say that kind of tongue in cheek. They do talk about money, right? Their kids have functions coming up and they need to pay for this, or they're wanting to go on that trip, you know, it's gonna cost them. There are aspects of their lives that there is talking about finances with.

Ashley Quamme (08:47.768)
Jean, however, did not talk about how providing for the kids, them having the maybe latest and greatest, the new shoes, the new kicks, the Nike dunks that are rose gold. wait, that's mine, sorry. wait, sorry, those are mine. Jean wasn't talking about these

Stoy Hall, CFP® (09:09.727)
That's you.

Ashley Quamme (09:17.866)
emotional feelings that came with wanting to provide for the children, wanting them to have more than what she had growing up. There are elements here with couples in general, but Norman Jeans certainly kind of highlight this. Their own individual money stories were playing out in their relationship and they had no idea. So what do I mean by that? Jean grew up

in a household where dad worked. He was the primary breadwinner. Mom stayed at home and they lived a very, very modest and frugal lifestyle. Dad was a blue collar worker, did not make much financially while their needs were taken care of. The wants certainly were not. And Jean grew up wanting to fit in with the other kids. She grew up

wanting some of those, you know, maybe latest and greatest. She wanted to fit in from a materialistic place. And that's not right, wrong, indifference, but that was just Jean's experience. And one of the beliefs, one of the messages that she came out of her childhood with was, I want my kids to have more than what I had when I was growing up.

Now, much of that was subconscious. There were some elements there that she was aware of, but much of that just kind of laid dormant. She didn't really realize that coming into her marriage, walking through, you know, 15 years, 20 years of being married, spending like around kids, that that narrative was playing out, that desire for her kids to have more, the pain of not fitting in as a child, how that all developed and unraveled.

in and within her marriage. And a lot of that led to that spending over that two year time period. Her kids during that time, they started entering the middle school, high school years. I have a son who is now in sixth grade. I have a daughter in fifth grade and we are on the cusp of that. Kids want to fit in. They want the new dunks. They want the Stanley Cup.

Ashley Quamme (11:44.578)
Right? With all of the gadgets that go with it or what have you, right? They want those things. And Jean's kids were in that phase and wanting and wanting. And because Jean had some unresolved issues from her childhood around money and around fitting in, she bought the kids whatever they wanted. She splurged on Christmas. She like blew it out of the water.

birthdays, she blew it out of the water. And it started to evolve in such a way that she took out a credit card. She could no longer just do it on the credit card they had. That was maxing out. And so in her mind, well, if I just take out another credit card, I can use that for spending, right, with the kids. Fast forward over time, right, those swipes start to compound, right, in the money.

and the interest on that credit card also starts to compound. And here, Gene is now two years, two years maybe in some change later, and there's 15 to $20,000 on this credit card that they've racked up. And it's difficult to pay off. In fact, they can't pay it off in full.

That's Jean and that's some of her story in the background there. Switching over to Norm. Norm is the, again, big visionary. He's a professional. He came from a background where his parents were also frugal. They had enough. They had some wants, right? So they were a little bit better off maybe than Jean's family. But from a values place, Norm walked away out of childhood not

wanting more, not having that, dare I say, maybe trauma around fitting in and the mindset of keeping up with the Joneses, right? Because that's essentially kind of what it was for Jean. So Norm didn't really struggle with this keeping up with the Joneses or social indifference is kind of the jargony word here. He didn't struggle with that. It was our needs are met, we're saving, we're planning.

Ashley Quamme (14:00.056)
things are good, things are fine. We can splurge on vacations and experiences maybe once in a while, but by and large, we live within our financial means. Norm discovers this credit card, this credit card debt, and he is just blown away and emotionally unravels. He had trusted his wife.

He thought they had a great marriage. They did have a great marriage, right? There was no quote unquote issues between the two of them, but there was the secret. There was this thing that was kept from him and it felt like a betrayal, very much so like a betrayal. And that is kind of that aspect of infidelity that starts to come in is that when there is secret keeping on the financial side of things, when there is intentional secret keeping, the other partner

can experience it as betrayal. And emotionally, the brain works and responds and processes it much like a betrayal. so Norm is unraveling because here is this massive betrayal, right? In his mind, between the two of them, Jean doesn't think it's that big of a deal. Sure, she should not have kept the secret. Sure, she should have let him know.

Hey, we've maxed out. continue to max out these credit cards. I'm going to take out another one so that we can use it to purchase things for the kids. She should have, she acknowledges. Yeah, I probably should have. But Norm's reaction is extreme. It's big, right? It's not that big of a deal. And so from a communication standpoint, from a beliefs standpoint, from just an interpretation and meaning standpoint, Norm and Jean are on very different pages here.

very, very different pages. And it's starting to really shine a light on how this couple from the beginning, 15, 20 years, have really set themselves up in such a way to why they got to this point. And look, that's not to blame. That's not to blame. You only know what you know, right? As my granddad says, you don't know what you don't know, right? I don't know anything I don't know, girl. You believe that?

Ashley Quamme (16:25.122)
Yeah, Granetti, I believe that. So it's not their fault, but the way in which they set themselves up from the beginning, from a communication standpoint, from an awareness standpoint, it got them to where they were metaphorically on my couch.

The work that needed to be done was great. And truth be told, I will say that Norm was on the cusp, on the verge of having to make a decision of, I want to stay in this relationship? That's how painful it was for him. Do I want to continue to stay in this relationship? That is how deeply painful it was for him, which only sent Gene into a spiral because it was, you know.

How can you be questioning like our entire marriage just because I kept this one secret? And so, you know, I see a lot of couples that are like that. These acts of betrayal around finances, they are just as significant as if that partner had gone out and had an extramarital affair. And for some partners like that doesn't make sense, but...

that is very much an experience for others. And so the work that Norm and Jean have done with me, I will say that it has been an evolved in such a way to where it is more in a maintenance place, but it's been extensive and it's required going back and understanding those money stories that I mentioned. How did we get here? Because you don't just wake up

and start seeing a financial therapist, right? I mean, maybe some people do, but like, how did we get here to this place where one partner is contemplating divorce, especially when there's so much good in the relationship and peeling back those layers, right? We talked about their money stories. We uncovered some beliefs that have been dominating their behaviors that have been dominating their communication patterns. And over time,

Ashley Quamme (18:40.244)
we started to rewrite new narratives, new beliefs. What are those new attitudes that they want to carry forward with them in the future? And what needs healing? How do we heal from this injury? How do we heal from this relationship wound? And that's not easy work to do, but kudos to Norman Gene for

putting in the time and the emotional energy and effort to being able to do that. I want to pause because I know that I've shared a lot here. And I Stoi, you are so great at just asking follow-up insights and questions here. When it comes to Norman Jean and their story, what didn't I cover?

what's left maybe there that we can kind of explore here and talking about maybe this concept, this theme around financial infidelity within couples.

Stoy Hall, CFP® (19:48.703)
think the first part and everyone's listening because just as a listener, I'm thinking the same thing of we've all been through it, whether it was intentional or unintentional, because it happens in most relationships, as you know, this, there's a money person, and there's a not money person. And if there's no communication, meetings, etc, then these things happen, both intentionally or unintentionally. What the hell do we do? And how do we take that first step?

in bridging that communication gap when we know one is all about money and one's like I don't even want to know anything about it.

Ashley Quamme (20:25.358)
Yeah, that's a great question and a really common, right? A really common dynamic. And here's what I'll say, bridging that gap, it requires willingness on both partners' sides. Sure, some work can be done maybe on the more financial kind of CFO kind of dominant partner. Like sure, like work can be done. But ultimately, if you want a, what I call a wealthy marriage, right?

One that is healthy and wealthy, not just from the numbers standpoint, but emotionally, mentally, physically, right? All the bullies. It requires willingness on both sides. so, you know, stereotypically, partners tend to not be as interested or involved in the finances. And forgive me for speaking in stereotypes here. And for those...

partners, what I would say if you are the partner who is not really that interested in the numbers piece, if you're not interested in investments, you really don't care about, you know, insurance and whether you're adequately covered. You don't really care about, you know, the estate planning, all of that great kind of stuff. You don't have to care about it. But you do need to be willing to learn at least

a few things about it as it pertains to you and your family. You are not expected to know all of the ins and outs. You are not expected to take an interest in whatever robust spreadsheet that your partner puts out there. You're not expected to care to the extent that your partner does. But this is your life. This is

know, your path, this is your future. And a willingness to take ownership over that path is important. Where does that maybe start? Think about an area within the finances that you maybe have an interest in or are willing to learn a little bit more about. Maybe just starting there.

Ashley Quamme (22:49.376)
If it's cash flow specifically, if that's like your lane, that's where you're wanting to know.

Stoy Hall, CFP® (22:55.543)
Cut out. Frozen.

Ashley Quamme (22:56.95)
more about.

Stoy Hall, CFP® (24:52.009)
You're back.

Ashley Quamme (24:55.465)
Yeah, sorry, I don't know.

Stoy Hall, CFP® (24:57.129)
I don't either.

Ashley Quamme (25:02.141)
so that my internet just like...

went out. Yeah, don't have an idea. I've never seen that before. So. All right. Where should I jump back in?

Stoy Hall, CFP® (25:17.79)
Let's let's just start a new question because I think at least where I remember it cut off it actually cut off in a relatively good spot. So what that did that? Alright, so let's get back into it. So we just went through and asked about like, we have one one side of the couple that's usually money and not

Whether that's stereotypical or not, most men usually run the money, women don't want to. And even in my own household, that's what way. Now, it is my profession, so that's slightly different. But that happens. What is the most difficult step in this journey? OK, we've recognized it. We understand it. Maybe we started doing our monthly financial meetings.

The biggest caveat to all of that is we still have not recognized and went back to the money story trauma or whatever from the childhood, which we all have. How do they individually and as a couple bridge that gap without a professional involved?

Ashley Quamme (26:21.395)
Yeah, something as significant as that, would say is pretty challenging to be quite honest. And that's because there's so many layers to it. Doesn't mean that it's impossible. You can't do it without a professional, but I will say that it is a challenge there. And this is where some of the challenge starts. It's easy to say, okay, we have a problem and we need help. For some that might be hard. That might be a challenge.

But this is where I see a lot of couples start to struggle. It is when they start getting into the change process, the healing process, and they have to do something different. They have to start doing things differently. They have to start responding differently. They have to start incorporating different strategies. It is the act of change that couples, individuals,

struggle the most with. It's not the, do I reach out for help and start doing this work with a professional? It's once we start getting into it and then they say, hey, I think this would be a great idea. Or, hey, would you consider and be willing to do this next time? All of a sudden it's, I'm not so sure about that. Like, I hear you. That sounds good, sure. Yeah, that sounds really great. Like a good idea.

And then we get to that moment and it's, dog, I'm out, I can't do this. Or I don't wanna do this, this is too hard, it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable.

Stoy Hall, CFP® (27:54.036)
Yeah.

Ashley Quamme (28:00.755)
When we're asked to change, there's a lot of discomfort that comes with that. And this is where that willingness, that fight, what have you, whatever that motivation is, we need to hang on to it to stick through the discomfort if we want to begin to bridge that gap and get to the other side.

Stoy Hall, CFP® (28:21.621)
Do you find it's?

a easier first step for them to kind of like blame you and use you as the scapegoat to at least get started. I tell my couples this in my business owners this all the time when there's a change that needs to happen and they kind of do that they're like, this is fantastic. And probably, right? I tell them, Hey, blame me, use use me. Say story told me to do this, we need to do it this way. For at least a short period of time, I have found once they do that, they become closer. And then that change

can happen. It's just an easier way. And do you soft pull that at all? Or is there any other tools that they can use to kind of at least take that first step? Because it really just takes a couple steps to get going.

Ashley Quamme (29:05.695)
Yeah, sometimes. I will say one of the things that I use most is actually it's more breaking down what those steps are. A first step for you and a first step for me, that step for you might not be as hard as it is for me. And if we're in a relationship together and that step requires both of us, then

we, you the step can't be done, taken, really completed unless like both of us are willing. And so if one is kind of lagging behind in terms of like, this is really hard, then we need to break that down for both partners. How can we break this down and make it smaller? What is like the next smallest step then that we can take to get there? If it's scheduling like regular money check-ins, like money meetings together,

you know, maybe, maybe once a month is not not great, or maybe we're trying to do it every other every other week. And, you know, there are some starting points that we can use. It might sound easy, like just to schedule this like once a month, like, you know, maybe for professionals like you and I, it's like, this isn't rocket science, like, just put it on the calendar. But maybe for couples, though, that are really struggling, because it's uncomfortable to talk about money, that might be a big first step. And so how we break that down.

could be just something as like, hey, why don't the two of you, instead of scheduling a date, why don't you actually individually just look at your calendars and come up with some ideas around possibilities? And then next time we meet, let's talk about those possibilities. So sometimes just breaking it down like further until like micro steps can be helpful if we're struggling.

if we're struggling to take those initial steps.

Stoy Hall, CFP® (31:05.961)
Now flipping it a little bit, because we do have advisors and planners that listen, our colleagues and everything. And I know you're a big proponent of helping obviously planners with this. How can I recognize this situation in one of my clients? And what can I do to initiate those first steps into the healing process?

Ashley Quamme (31:28.957)
Yeah, that's a great question. I find that for some advisors, they're just as caught off guard as maybe the other spouse. I say that because there may be instances where you don't see it coming. You have no idea. Taking out credit cards in private, like

you know, you don't have control over all of that knowledge. What I will say though, are some things to pay attention to is if couples separate their finances. So if there are just a lot of separate financial accounts where both partners aren't and don't have access to, just kind of keeping, you in mind like, like,

If they're willing to do that, then that step of taking out a card or making transactions or purchases without consideration, that may not be a difficult next step. Business owners is also where I see a lot of financial infidelity occur because there's some gray lines between the business and the personal side. And so,

I think as an advisor, if you have business owners in particular, like this needs to be a conversation proactively of, hey, like we see a lot of business owners and sometimes this happens where financial secrets get kept. you know, are you sharing the extent of the, you know, business or financials on the business side? Are you sharing that like with, with your partner? you know, that just proactively like throwing it out there, I think can be.

great at normalizing it. And I say that because a lot of people just in general don't know that this is a thing. It's a newer kind of concept within the field of couples, financial therapy is really new. And so some of this is just really new in general, but even just throwing it out there of like, hey, sometimes couples struggle with this and just curious, like, has that ever happened? There, I think that from a best work place, like that's what advisors can do.

Ashley Quamme (33:48.541)
If that is disclosed though, then I do think some conversations around, hey, like normalizing, lot of couples struggle with this. And there are people that help couples recover from this on the emotional relational side of things. I can help you on the financial side, but there are practitioners out there that help with the relational emotional aspect. Would you be interested?

in me offering some names for you. So I think really in these instances, if we're talking about financial infidelity, this work from a recovery place, from a healing place, is really best left to practitioners in financial therapy, mental health couples, practitioners as well.

Stoy Hall, CFP® (34:38.101)
agree, wholeheartedly agree. There is a in our industry where our industry is fighting this like, what our role is, what our role is not with specifically what causes the behavioral finance. To me, it's there's a pretty easy line, right? There is as much line as we can go with, you know, helping them and understand their money story to like, it affecting their relationship to a degree at which you can't even get both to the table, or never have they ever been there.

because the numbers and financial talk can only go so far. And that's where I think our industry really will finally figure this out. But that's a very easy line. And just like you're talking about is having these partnerships with these firms. So when they are working towards that, and they see this line, it's very easy to say, Hey, actually, on my team is a therapist, this is exactly where we're at, I've gotten you this far in this journey. Let's bring her in. And let's let's keep this thing going. And that's as simple as it needs to be.

I just know that in our industry we are, I believe we're on a cusp of this change of transition and we're gonna run bluntly face first into that wall that deals exactly with that. And I'm so glad and that's why I love our relationship and I always post and say you're the most badass because you are in my opinion that this is gonna happen and us as advisors and planners need to be aware of it.

But the general public, you need to also be aware of it because you might be going to a normal therapist, and you actually need financial behavior side of things. And that might be more of a trigger in so I appreciate everything you do. I really do can't wait to have you on more episodes because that's what we do, obviously. But I wanted to leave everyone with how we always end and that is like, share, subscribe and comment not because of the algorithms, both of us don't care about that.

but it allows us to communicate with you. It allows you to communicate with us. DM us, reach out to us. We only can help if you're willing to have the conversation. And we don't know you're willing to have a conversation if you don't reach out somewhere somehow. And I know we both put out a lot of content and a lot of content together, and it's all designed to get people to take that next step.

Stoy Hall, CFP® (36:50.663)
I want you and your family to have a very, very happy holidays as well and everyone listening. But ultimately, when you're listening to this, take that next step, reach out to us. We are here to help you on your journey.