12 Days of Giving Day 7: You’re Not Broken: Why ‘Normal’ Couples Still Fight About Money

Most couples think they’re “broken” because they argue about money. The truth? You’re probably more normal than you realize—you’ve just never been taught how to talk about money without going to war.

In this 12 Days of Giving episode, I sit back down with financial therapist Ashley Quamme to walk through a real couple we’ll call Mark and Mary—late 30s, three kids, decent income, solid marriage… until money comes up. He’s the anxious saver, constantly bracing for the layoff that may never come. She’s the practical spender who wants to make memories with their kids and not live like everything is on fire. The money isn’t the problem. Their stories about money are. 

ashley-2-2025

Ashley takes us into their backstory: Mark’s single-mom, count-every-penny upbringing and Mary’s “we’re fine, we don’t talk about money much” childhood. We break down how those early money memories hijack their adult arguments—why he feels panicked when they’re not maxing accounts, and why she feels controlled and judged when he questions holiday spending. None of this is “just numbers.” This is nervous systems, fear, and unspoken expectations running the show.

Then we get into the actual work: how Ashley helped them stop avoiding each other, set up structured money dates, and build rules of engagement so they’re not trying to solve their financial life at 9:30 p.m. half-asleep and pissed off. We talk about what to do when you hit a stalemate, why “we’ll talk about it later” usually means “never,” and how they finally landed on a savings target that calmed his anxiety without killing all joy for her.

This is not some dramatic, on-the-brink-of-divorce situation. This is a normal couple that refused to settle for “fine” and chose to do the work before things blew up. If you and your partner are mostly good—but money convos feel tense, defensive, or like the same fight on repeat—this episode is your mirror and your playbook.

🎥 Watch the full episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/2mdLDYnOJDk

As always we ask you to comment, DM, whatever it takes to have a conversation to help you take the next step in your journey, reach out on any platform!

Twitter, FaceBook, Instagram, Tiktok, Linkedin

DISCLOSURE: Awards and rankings by third parties are not indicative of future performance or client investment success. Past performance does not guarantee future results. All investment strategies carry profit/loss potential and cannot eliminate investment risks. Information discussed may not reflect current positions/recommendations. While believed accurate, Black Mammoth does not guarantee information accuracy. This broadcast is not a solicitation for securities transactions or personalized investment advice. Tax/estate planning information is general - consult professionals for specific situations. Full disclosures at www.blackmammoth.com.

Chapters

• 0:00 Why normal couples still fight about money (12 Days of Giving)
• 1:46 Mark & Mary: a “normal” family with constant money tension
• 3:12 The myth: if you make enough, money fights should disappear
• 5:28 “It’s just numbers” and other BS advice about couples and money
• 7:41 No BS reality: childhood money stories running your marriage
• 11:59 How money dates can replace late-night money arguments
• 16:22 How to start your first money date without blowing up
• 19:03 What to do when you disagree on saving vs spending
• 21:55 When to call in a pro before money fights break your marriage

Transcript

Stoy Hall: 0:10

Happy holidays, everyone back with another 12 days of giving with, you know, oh, you know her. Not only has she had two this year, she's been in every single year, uh, of our 12 days in giving. And today, just off camera, we were talking about this and it's like. We rarely talk about like the normal, the, the traditional, just the everyday type situations that we're dealing with. And so today Ashley's gonna give us just the normal, are we all normal?

Ashley Quamme: 0:35

Nah, yes, no, no. But yes.

Stoy Hall: 0:38

No further do, Ashley, let's, uh, what is this normal when we speak of.

Ashley Quamme: 0:41

I don't know. It's a setting on the dryer story, I guess, like Right. I don't, I don't really know. But yes, as we, so as we were talking before, uh, you know, and I was sharing, like, I feel like when I come on, I share hard stuff, like deep, like trauma fields. Sad, like tr like I just feel like I always come with like some. Sad stuff. I can't say bad words on here, like some sad stuff. And so today, like, uh, my thought was is I would share about the couple couples, but a specific couple that might just be like kind of your typical like run of the mill quote unquote normal couple, right? Because I think that there are far more of these than there are, you know, the others where there is. You know, extreme like tragedy, trauma, awful stuff. So, yeah, that was kind of my thought today. If, if you're good with it.

Stoy Hall: 1:38

No, it sounds great. And I think it'll allow people to understand too, that a lot of us think we're not normal, right? And so I think going through this, we actually might realize that we are normal. A little more normal. Right? There's no normal, but you know what I mean? Like, we don't have all have this tragedy stuff. Like there are just some of us that are running the mill normal life. And, uh, I think that's a great point to be speaking about.

Ashley Quamme: 1:58

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. You want me to jump into it?

Stoy Hall: 2:00

Jump right in.

Ashley Quamme: 2:01

Cool. Awesome. All right, so this, uh, this couple, let's call them Mark and Mary. Double M's. That's easy for me to remember. Uh, easy for me to remember. So Mark and Mary are in their late thirties, um, late thirties. They've got three kids, uh, all in the elementary age. Uh, so like. Five to like 11 kind of age bracket. Both dual professionals, although Mary has stepped back and worked part-time, um, she, uh, is in the medical space as a physical therapist, but stepped back and is working just super part-time to play the mom role. Uh, you know, do her other part-time job, which is not really a part-time job playing mom. Uh, and husband Mark in this case. Um, he is in the engineer. He's an engineer. Uh, and they both collectively make pretty decent income. I wouldn't say that they would be what we classify as high income earners, but you know, they make a, they make a good living. Uh, their needs are certainly cared for, um, and their wants and they're able to save a little bit, right? Um, so they're not killing it, but they're doing, they're doing pretty good. And all in all, mark and Mary have a great relationship. Things are relatively. Smooth, right? As smooth as it can be with three kids in that age bracket. But all in all, like things are pretty smooth except for when they talk about money. Uh, and that is the area where they have a hard time finding common ground on. They have a hard time relating just understanding, and they have a hard time keeping their emotions in check when they go to talk about it. So, you know, I share Mark and Mary's story here because I see this a lot. I see Mark and Mary in so many different couples where things are mostly good. In other aspects of their marriage, but when they go to talk about money, like something just takes over and just happens. So Mark and Mary reached out to work with me because while all the other areas of their relationship are great, like this one wasn't, and it was starting to really take a toll on things to where they were just avoiding conversations and almost operating and. Silos when it came to making financial decisions. Um, and they had the awareness to recognize like, this isn't healthy. Like we can't, we can't and don't want to do this. So they reached out to me to work with me, um, and to, you know, try and figure out how can we do this better. Um, so off we went. On an adventure into each of their own just individual, uh, money stories into each of their relationships with money on an individual, uh, on an individual level. What we, what we found is that Mark is very vigilant and anxious about money. He's your classic, like, I wanna save everything. I don't wanna spend anything. Uh, you could say frugal and that would probably be nice. And so like Mark was, had a lot of anxiety over the fact that they weren't maxing out 4 0 1 Ks. They weren't maxing out Roths, they weren't maxing out and contributing as much as they could to the kids'. 5 29 plans, and their savings wasn't out of place. That he wanted, uh, numbers wise, they were doing a little bit, but it wasn't where he thought they could be. And it made him really, really anxious. Um, the type of work that he was involved in, uh, you know, it's pretty cutthroat. Uh, and so he kind of felt anxious in like this loom. Constantly just hanging over him of like, Hey, like I could be let go. Like, it's not uncommon. And then, then we're in this situation where, you know, I've gotta find a job and how long will that take? And, you know, that kind of cycle, Mary, uh, in doing her. Individual history, we found that shocker. Uh, she, she has a little bit of the opposite approach, uh, to, to mark. Um, you know, she is more comfortable spending money. Um, it doesn't give her anxiety. She, I wouldn't say that she's a YOLO kind of girl, but like she recognizes, Hey, we have three kids. We're, you know, we should enjoy this time with them. Like we should go and do family outings and do, you know, not extravagant vacations, but like we should go and make memories and have experiences with them and that costs money and Oh yeah. So do Halloween costs. Dos and, uh, so does Christmas. And so, you know, do you know all the other things right that come up, uh, when it comes to raising and having kids? And so, you know, she would just spend the money, uh, and, you know, she felt like, and Mark agreed, like it wasn't over the top, it wasn't extravagant. Um, for the most part it was like within the needs kind of bucket, but it was. Probably still more. And there wasn't alignment more than anything. There just wasn't alignment. Mary just spent and didn't really, I don't wanna say consult, like she had to, but she didn't have that conversation with Mark around, Hey, Christmas is coming up. How much do we want to spend on the kids? Uh, how much do we wanna spend on each kid? How much do we wanna spend on family? She just went and did it. Uh, and so a lot of couples operate that way, right? But, you know, for Mark, it kind of felt like a betrayal. Um, and not just with Christmas, but with a lot of things. Uh, but they couldn't talk about it story. Like they just couldn't sit down and talk about it because. Every time they did one and or both got really defensive. Some name calling may have been made a few, a few times. Uh, and they just, they just could never get on the same page. You know, in their words, they felt like they could never get on the same page. And so that's kind of the backdrop to their story. Let me pause. Where do you want me to go? Where do you want me to go with the rest of the story? Where should we, where should we go from here?

Stoy Hall: 8:09

When you had those conversations with them individually, which AB absolutely had to do, there was no way around it for you in that one. Where did it lead to? Where did, was there a point that when you were going on the journey with them individually, that they could somewhat pinpoint why they operate that way with money? Um, and potentially why they couldn't have the conversation with the other one because of that.

Ashley Quamme: 8:30

Yeah, so we were able to, so with Mark's back history, it was pretty clear that it was almost like a duh, uh, you know, kind of, kind of moment. It was pretty, it was pretty clear. Um, he grew up in a, uh, with a single mom where money. Had to be paid attention to. And there was risk there for not, right? Like utilities not being on, um, you know, having to go without food. And, and so while that never actually happened, that never actually happened. There was a lot of just like counting pennies, like just really like paying attention to things. In contrast though, like when he would visit with his dad, like his dad, it wasn't that way. Um, and he said he felt a little angry and kind of resentful towards his dad. Like later on he realized. Why he was kind of angry, uh, with his dad is because dad had, you know, dad had gone on to remarry. Mom did too, but it was a while, you know, and so thi this like feeling of like, I have to, like, my mom has to count pennies. Like I hear her talking about, and like adding things up at the grocery store when we go to make sure that we have, you know, like that. I don't want to do that. I don't like that. Um, and so for Mark, like it was pretty clear. It was pretty easy. Why do you save? Why do you, you know, put money aside like for the future? Why do you pay attention to money is because, you know, there's consequences if you don't. So that was pretty easy, you know, and Mark recognized that. But here's the thing. He also felt like it was a good thing. It's like, but this is a good thing. Like this is how you quote, unquote should be right with, with money. And so like, I'll leave Mark kind of there. With Mary, the path was a little bit, it took a little bit to get there. She grew up in, you know, a pretty, um, you know, uh, middle class, uh, you know, family. Both mom and dad were together. Uh, mom stayed home. Uh, dad worked, had a good job. She had a sister. Uh, and so like, you know, things were fine. Um, she didn't remember any, like, arguing about money. Uh, you know, occasionally, sometimes dad would get frustrated that mom spent a little bit too much at Christmas, but like, you know, other than that, like she had a much harder time getting to what, um, what was at the root of things for her. Even though it was a little difficult to get to the root of things for her, what we were able to, to do though is really help her understand more about Mark's position and hear her talk about Hear Mark talk about it from a different angle, from a different place, from a different perspective, and just the impact on, you know, how they go about making or. Not making financial decisions like jointly, how that brings up a lot of that anxiety and uncertainty for him. It's like he's constantly, he was constantly still living in that place, even though, you know, he's like 30 years older, uh, like emotionally, like his brain is still living in that scarcity place.

Stoy Hall: 11:24

We find that, and I know we've talked about it before, but I know we, we say this a lot is when you, that first money memory is what I call it. Whatever that event is, financially, our brains are there. Like that's emotionally where we're at. And it, and it still happens to everyone and all the conversations we had, it also kind of, um, molds you in your life, right? Someone who was very detail oriented in a stickler like that. Does not surprise me. He's an engineer. Like it does not at all in those go hand in hand. Um, so we've gotten that. We've, we figured out where they're at. How did you get them to come together and kind of move forward with that? Because it's not easy. Those are, those are normal and common, but they're also on both, they're opposite spectrums. Right. Uh, my wife and I are very similar to that. She came from middle class. I came from a single mother and it took us. A long, long time to even do that. And we still have ts every now and again. Now granted, she works for me now and it can see it every day. So it's a little different, but like it's still that way. So what brought them together and kind of where are they at now with, with that conversation?

Ashley Quamme: 12:28

Well, I broke out my magic wand. Uh. Yeah, sprinkled some fairy dust, uh, in the computer, uh, there and poof, uh, they got better. Um, so we started with kind of what I was sharing actually with Mary, really understanding more around what was going on for Mark. Um, I'd like to say that we really got to kind of the root of, of Mary's. You know, feelings, but we didn't, and that's the reality. You know, I'd like to come on and say, you know, like with all clients, we always, you know, figure these things out. But you know, I would be lying. Like this is a very, when I said this is a very typical, like normal, like sometimes this happens. So, but we were able to help Mary understand Mark in a different way. And it was helpful even though she still disagreed with the level or intensity of, you know, how much he wanted, you know, to say. But she was able to understand and that helped to shape some of her emotional reaction, uh, which then in turn. Decreased mark's, defensiveness, you know, over time. Now some of the work that we really did, you know, apart from just that, that kind of sharing is helping them set up consistent communication, uh, times, uh, meetings to get together. So you can call'em a money date, you can call it a money meeting, you can call it whatever you wanna call it. But to help them establish, you know, a regular check-in and the rules for that. So what are we gonna talk about? What is it gonna look like? Um, how long is it gonna be, right? Because we're gonna put a time cap on it and hey, guess what? We're also not gonna do it at nine o'clock at night after the kids go down when we're both really, really tired. You know? So we're gonna set ourselves up for success because that was also some of the problem. They were trying to have these conversations at night. And I get it. Like, you know, Clayton and I are super busy, like with kids travel sports. I know you guys, you are on the same boat. Like, and so for us, important conversations. We can't do at night, uh, because I'm not a nice person. When I'm cranky, uh, and tired, mostly it's me. Um, hi, it's me, I'm the problem. Uh, and so, you know, helping them really understand like how can we set you two up best for being able to have a healthy conversation around this. What are the rules? What are the. Protocols, what are we gonna do if we get to like a stalemate here and we're not in agreement? How are we gonna handle that? Um, and are we gonna come back to it? So a plan for coming back to it, even when, when we don't agree. Because a lot of couples, they disagree, they fight and then they never come back to it. And so there's never any like resolution, uh, there. They just keep. Moving on. Uh, and that's not healthy. That's not healthy either. Um, you know, so helping them kind of set them up and then practicing, like I would help them practice. They would do their meeting. They, so they would come to session, they would bring their agenda items, what they wanted to talk about, and like, they would do their meeting with me. So that I could, you know, not watch from like a creepy, like weird kind of place, but like, if they started to, uh, derail or get really emotional, like I could intervene at the start, right? And help point out, Hey, this is when we would do this, this is when you would wanna pause and, you know, really give them some confidence, um, while still having someone there to help facilitate so that it's. It's safe, right? And then eventually, like they spread their wings and they flew off and you know, has every conversation been perfect? No. But they are having the conversations and more often than not, they're going okay. And they're going pretty well. And they're able to, you know, they've even been able to agree on like, hey, this is our, the amount that we wanna have in savings. And right now, like, our focus is gonna be on getting, you know, that savings to this amount. And, and I say that because we, you know, mark was able to share, like that's actually what is causing him so much anxiety from like the job standpoint is that. If fluff hits the fan, like, we, like our savings is not there and I really need that to be at this number so that I can kind of catch my breath. So they were able to have that conversation, identify that number, and then create a plan. Uh, but it took a while. It took about 18 months. Truth be told. Um, you know, we just wrapped things up. About four months ago. Um, and so they have not reached out since. And so knocking on wood that so far, four months of money date conversations are continuing to go well.

Stoy Hall: 16:59

Did they have a financial planner before you guys met?

Ashley Quamme: 17:03

Oh, I love that you asked me that. No, they did not. So part of once we got to a place where they were having some money conversations and able to kind of have that, um, I did recommend that they consider. Working with an advisor they had, and this might be where, I know it's not the typical tradition or normal case, but they did anticipate on Mark's side, him being let, he was an only child. So him being left a pretty decent chunk of wealth. That was an, like his dad had already said, like, this is earmarked. You know, so they did anticipate that. Now that could be decades and decades, like down the road, who knows? Um, but. Uh, you know, they, knowing that, like I did say, Hey, you may wanna consider working with an advisor. They can help you with some of these money conversations and explain things at a numbers level. And it doesn't have to be, you know, where they're managing your assets. Because they had that myth that financial advisors, it was only like investments. Um. And I get it. Uh, but you know, we were able to kind of talk about who might be a good fit, you know, for them, what type of advisor. And I know that they made some contacts and they reached out. And my hope is, is that they landed with somebody. That's awesome.

Stoy Hall: 18:17

And that's a really big point of it, of one, the misnomer that it's financial advisors only deal with it when you have money. That's a whole crazy. Concept to me. Uh, but I get it. I, I understand that's how media's driven, society's driven. Just how the makeup of what we do is when you lead with that, right? You're, you're kind of mentioning, Hey, this might be a great idea, um, besides apprehension that they think it's only about money. Do you ever see a client of yours go, well, why would a planner and advisor help me with these emotional. Money, conversations. Do they ever have pushback there or not? This is, by the way, listeners, this is for me personally wanting to know, um, because I, sometimes I hear it, sometimes I don't. My clients don't. But I just didn't know if you run into that,

Ashley Quamme: 19:00

I don't know if I've ever heard a client frame it that way. Story where like the emotional, because I don't know if. For the most part, clients still see that as emotional. Like I think they probably, I could be wrong. I think for my, my perception I guess is that clients still mostly see it as numbers driven. Um, and so I, yeah, I have not that brought up. I think that if couples aren't agreeing on money or they need help, I think that for the most part it's uh, Hey, this is a numbers issue, not. An emotional, not an emotional, like relat relational one. So yeah, that'd be interesting. I can't recall any though off the top of my head.

Stoy Hall: 19:42

Okay. I was just wondering. That kind of just came to me too with that question. But yeah, it's, it goes to the point of what we are educating about your content. My content, everything that we do is the emotions are there people, it's not about the dollars. It's not about the numbers. It, it truly isn't. At the end of the day, one plus one equals two, we can figure it out. The, the equation that we don't know is your emotions, your behavior, your your past traumas, your your current traumas. Who knows? And I really hope that people listening today can one, understand and realize that, Hey, you're, you're normal. I'm normally having those conversations too, but just maybe it's not about. The actual dollar and the money, it, there's something else. And there is, I can promise you that there is something else there, uh, causing this or causing the, you know, apprehension, whatever. But I, I really, that's what I want them to take away from today. Is there anything else that you want them to be like, you know what, I am normal damn it, but I do need help.

Ashley Quamme: 20:35

Yeah. Um, so I always love this question because I think I answer it pretty similarly every time that you don't have to wait for problems. For there to be problems, to reach out for help or support. So, um, in fact, you know, those are, those are the clients that tend to do far better are the ones that proactively reach out to say, Hey, like, look, this area of money, like, we don't really talk about it so well, and like, it's not a huge. You know, we, we, we get by like we're fine, but like, we're also just not satisfied with things just being fine. Uh, and we wanna make sure that we put things in place to where it doesn't get worse. Uh, over time. It's like compound interest, right? Uh, you know, emotion. Yeah. Those problems as they keep calm, they compound over time and not in the way that you want it to, like it does in your investments. Um, that's not what we want. Uh, so reach out. Sooner than later. Um, for help or for support.

Stoy Hall: 21:31

Absolutely. So while you're listening to this during the holiday season, go ahead, reach out. Ashley's here for you. I'm here for you. Our collectives here for you. You can get all that information somewhere that the marketing team will put. It's cool. Reach out to us so that way we can help. So, I appreciate you Ashley. Have a happy holidays, listeners. Happy holidays. Uh, we'll be talking soon.