Roundtable Ep. 1 Pt. 1 | Guilt vs Shame Money Talk

Most of us already know what we're supposed to do with our money. That's not the problem. The problem is the story we tell ourselves the second we fall short of it. You get behind on a bill. You make a call you regret. And your brain doesn't say "you made a mistake." It says "you ARE a mistake." That's shame. And it spirals.

In this NoBS Wealth® Roundtable, I sat down with Kristina Hall, Ashley Quamme, Rachel Duncan, and Tessa Santarpia to rip this thing wide open. We get into the real difference between guilt and shame, because they are not the same, and treating them like they are keeps you stuck. Guilt is "I did a bad thing." Shame is "I am a bad thing." One you can actually work with. The other eats you alive quietly, in your own head, where nobody can talk you out of it.

We also go after the lie that keeps you small: comparison. You are comparing your insides to everyone else's outsides. That trip to Italy on your feed tells you nothing about how they actually handle money. Meanwhile you're sitting there convinced everyone has it figured out but you. They don't. Someone out there thinks the exact same thing about you.

Then we get honest about financial trauma being a real, physical thing, not a mindset problem you can positive-think your way out of. Your body registers a threat around money the same way it registers physical danger. That deserves to be treated, not shamed. And for the person who is so deep in it they can't even crack the door open, we get practical: how you name it, how you stop using overwork to numb the anxiety, and how you find the root cause instead of white-knuckling the symptoms.

This one got personal for me. If you've ever felt that weight, it's going to land.

Watch the full roundtable on YouTube: https://youtu.be/W9aypA-Z8WE
 

Connect with the panel:
 Stoy Hall, CFP® — NoBS Wealth® 
 Kristina Hall — Hall Social Media 
 Ashley Quamme — The Mind Money Connection 
 Rachel Duncan — Money Healing Club 
 Tessa Santarpia — Santaia Health 

If this hit home, drop a comment. Tell me where you're feeling it most. I read every single one.

New episodes every week on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube. Subscribe so you never miss a real conversation.

Transcript

The Shame Spiral Nobody Wants To Admit To

Kristina 0:21

Well then, it's time

Stoy 0:30

So the first one topic is, is around shame and the spiral of shame that happens when we talk about not only necessarily money, but that's kind of what we're about, but in life in general. So when I, when I use it as an example is, um, whether it's tax season, whether it's your financials, most of us know what to do, right? We, we know the, the basis of what we need to do to get done. The problem is then we have to choose something, right? Uh, we have to choose to get new tires on our car. We have to choose soccer tryouts. We have to choose, um, where our kid goes to play a sport and how much that costs, because that choice then dictates what we can and can't do somewhere else. Then we can't pay that bill or we're late on that bill, or we... And it just keeps spiraling, right? Um, which turns into shame, somewhat of a guilt as well. And so that's where we set the table of those that are out there and you feel that way, right? Whatever your life is, whether it's tax-related, your financial related, your personal relationships, you, you feel the shame, and, and I'm here to say you shouldn't. One, a lot of us go through a lot of those situations, but it's there. And so I'm gonna open it up to, to whoever wants to jump on it first. But off the cusp, what's like, what, what does shame spiraling mean to you and, and how do you deal with it in your guys' practice or personally?

Ashley 1:55

Uh, oh, go ahead, Rachel. Yeah

Rachel 1:57

That's fine. Hi, everyone. Um, yeah, I'd say it's, you know, I call it the big S word. It's, I'd say my clients' number one word that they associate with money. And the thing with shame is that it's so private, it's so individual. And I think what a lot of us are doing, I'm in this camp too, is, you know, we're walking around comparing our insides to other people's outsides. And there is, I think a lot of my clients are like, "How is everyone else doing it?" Right? "They look like they have it together." But guess what? Someone also probably thinks the same about you. Like, we put a lot of work in how our outsides are looking and, um, whether that's, you know, lifestyle choices or, or whatever, but it's sort of only one piece of the whole financial puzzle. And so what I work with my clients a lot is, you know, you know your whole financial picture. You only know one slice of theirs, right? How do they all go to Italy for two weeks, right? I don't know. But there's a story there that also you don't know. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're good with money, and that's why they were able to go to Italy for two weeks. So what I do a lot is, like, realizing that what we see in others is just a tiny slice, and it's their external, just as we all do our own external. And the thing with shame is when we keep it really-- We keep these thoughts about ourselves, these judgments, these, "I'm not... I should be farther ahead 'cause I'm X years old." And, and we keep this knocking around in this, like, little tiny echo chamber of our own mind, and then that's what creates the shame. "Well, I feel so chaotic about it. It must be my fault." And so I think the f- the first part of my work is, you know, we get to the numbers way down the road. We're really, we're really sitting with an understanding, um, first normalizing that experience, just like you said, Stoy. And, um, you know, I, I think recognizing the parts that you do have right 'cause I, I have these different domains I see, uh, with folks' money, and we, we look through it, and usually like one or two need some work, and one or two are pretty well worked out, you know? And so just trying to get a comprehensive picture and just having a really compassionate conversation

Guilt Says "I Did Bad." Shame Says "I Am Bad."

Rachel 4:00

with a third party, with a professional like me or the others on this panel, it starts to dispel the sh- the shame pretty quickly.

Ashley 4:10

I would, I think I'd like to maybe just, um, take a step kind of back and talk about at least how, uh... I, I love everything, Rachel, that you shared, the comparing our insides to someone's outside. I think that is really, um, I think a wonderful, uh, nugget to kind of take away with. I guess where maybe I'd like to pull back and just offer some, um, thoughts around is what, what I hear is, uh, oftentimes clients interchangeably kind of talking about things, uh, like guilt and, and shame, um, a- and, and comparison. And, you know, that s- story, like listening to you, like those were three just kind of things that come up, and there's a difference actually between all three of them that I think it is worth like naming and identifying here because it's hel- because when we do, it's helpful because we kind of know, uh, maybe what, what to work and wh- what to work with. And so when I, when I think about Guilt, like guilt is more behavior-focused. Um, the thing that I did, um, I did something that was wrong or that I'm not proud of, or I feel badly that I spent money on this and not that. Like, that is, that is a behavior. When we talk about shame, um, at least in the therapeutic, like, context, shame is more tied to who I am as a person, uh, like my character, what I think about me, um, individually. So, and that can be tied to what I do, right? But shame is, is different than I feel bad that I spent money on th- or, you know, it's different from guilt, and that guilt is I feel bad that I spent money on this. Shame would be more I am a bad person. I am bad with money. I, you know, make bad choice. Like, I am bad, right? It's this characterization of, like, who we are, and how we approach, like, navigating and walking through that can be very, can be very different. Um, you know, I think that comparing, uh, so, you know, for those of you familiar with Brené Brown, Brené Brown, like, look, goddess, love her, um, would love to be BFFs with her. Um, she talks about, you know, comparison is the thief of joy. I don't actually entirely agree with that, um, because I actually think that on some level comparison can be helpful, healthy, and motivating. Um, and I also think that guilt can be helpful, healthy, and motivating as, as well. What we're talking about, though, is shame, um, and this characterization of I am a bad person. Like, I am bad, um, and how I think about myself is bad. And so I offer that at least kind of starting out because I think it's important that we-- I think it's important that we suss that out because it is, it is, it is different. And so for those, like, listening where you feel like, "You know, I just feel bad about some of the financial decisions that I make. Like, I don't think that I am bad inherently, like, with money or that I am an irresponsible person, but I just think, like, I don't make, like, great choices." Like, that's an important, I think, just, you know, psychological distinction to be able to name, uh, because it-- how we then approach it, um, Rachel, as you were saying, you know, kind of there, it can, it can look a bit different.

Tessa 7:46

Yeah, I totally agree with, um, what Ashley is saying, and, and that distinction and that awareness of the distinction is so important, um, especially when guilt is saying, you know, "I made that mistake," but shame is saying, "I am the mistake, and I am fail- failing in that way." Um, and I think it's, you know, different people come to shame for different reasons. Sometimes it's worth, safety, identity, belonging. There's so many different things that really-- And it could be a combination of all of them as well. So, um, that awareness I think is so key, and really starting to separate fact from what the mind is just assuming to be fact. Like the company, you know, is having a setback. I'm experiencing a delay. That doesn't mean that I'm failing. It doesn't mean that I'm not capable of moving this forward. Um, so that distinction and being able to do exercises like that really takes a lot of the emotional weight out of the subconscious and bring it into the open where you can actually start to work with it. So I love that.

Kristina 8:52

Yeah, you guys talking is, it's, you know, I'm not even thinking about it from, like, a line of what I do as a marketer, but being a business owner. And I'm having this conversation a lot right now around just finances and the shame that goes by, like, when you're late on your bills and paying contractors and things like that. And one of the things that I'm noticing most is that transparency is extremely important right now. I'm having a lot of conversations around this topic and, um, the thing that's really shedding light is the transparency. So it's like in those moments when we're feeling that shame, right? I... Shit, I felt it this morning. Like, I was like, "I don't even know we're gonna have this call." I'm like, "I felt it this morning." And so, um, you know, I'm finding that having these conversations is, is really helping with that. And the more that we can be transparent in talking about the shame, I think is gonna lessen the burden of that shame too. Yeah.

Stoy 9:50

How natural is it? Like, like how normal is it? Normal, right? Quote, unquote, "I'm not normal," so that's probably the wrong word. But how natural is it as a human to, to feel shame? Like to, to, to go into that spiral more so than the positive side? I

Kristina 10:07

mean, I don't know about you guys, but I think I probably hit that shame factor first before I think about the positiveness, right? I think it's, I think it's complete human reaction. And now if you're somebody who doesn't like taking accountability, that's a different story. But I think that, you know, for us as people who take accountability, who- people who have integrity behind they- what they do, you know, that shame plays a, plays a huge role. And I think that's the first emotion I probably feel when I'm starting to feel any type of way about money or finances or my business as a whole is that shame.

Ashley 10:43

I think there's a level of conditioning, like, that happens. Like f- you know, when I was practicing more heavily, like, just clinic- like clinically, like what I would notice is that for those that go to shame quickly. Um, there has been a history of conditioning,

Your Brain Takes The Easy Path Straight To Shame

Ashley 11:01

uh, o- of going there. So I like to explain it, uh, well, a lot of things as like imagine like you're walking in the woods, um, and there's a very clear path. Uh, a, a path that you, you know, could take, um, and you can see it. It's pretty, it's pretty clear. It's v- you don't see brush like hanging over. Um, maybe it's even paved. Uh, maybe there's even some guardrail, right? But it's a very clear and obvious path. Um, and, and that's a little bit how like our brain works like over time, like from a conditioning. Like the path that like our brain takes over and over and over again, it's gonna make it easy to take, uh, when we come to a situation or a scenario like, you know, "Hey, I messed up," right? "Well, oh, gosh, I'm just a bad person. Like I'm just terrible. I'm just so irresponsible." Like our brain is naturally just gonna take that very clear path, right? And, and so, and, and that may not be a great thing. Like it doesn't mean that this is a positive thing. But like our brain is going to take certain, certain paths, um, and follow them the more that we do it. The more we walk in the woods, the more we, you know, chop down trees if we're building a new trail, right? It takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of intentionality, and it's not easy. Um, and so going to shame, like moving to shame, to me, for clients, for people who can go there quickly and easily, to me, that's an indication of like, oh my goodness, like you've been going to this place for probably like a while. This is something you've been doing like a long, a long time. Is it normal? Well, yeah, I mean, it's normal in the context of like that person because that's their default. That's like what they're like used to. Is it helpful? Probably not. Uh, but it does make sense, right? Because all behavior like makes sense in context. Uh, and so it makes sense. It may not be helpful. It might be unwanted. Um, but it sounds like that's just part of their human, their individual human like conditioning.

Rachel 13:00

Yeah, and I think whether it expresses as guilt or shame or comparison, you know, we are inherently such social creatures. I mean, the most introvert person is still so social, and we've got all these parts of our brain running this program of like, "Am I safe? Am I safe?" And a big question or big answer behind, "Am I safe?" is, "Am I accepted by the people around me?" And so I think that's the calculus we're just running constantly. Where do I measure up? Not in terms of am I better than, but will I be accepted? Am I doing the same things as the people around me? And so whether exactly, whether your path goes to shame or guilt or simple comparison, I think it's a lot of us navigating this world as very social creatures. And because money touches like everything, well then there's often that money component of it. But I, I think it's, it's actually like, do I fit in? And I think that's actually going on underneath almost every script in some way. And actually the even deeper script is am, am I safe? Will I be protected? Will I be accepted by the people around me?

Tessa 14:05

Yeah, I agree. I think, you know, there is this loneliness epidemic that's going on, and it's not only what we think of as physically alone, you know, not having people around you. It's also this sense of maybe I don't belong because I don't have what other people around me have or I should have at my age. Um, and that sense of identity and belonging is so deeply tied to money because it's one of our, you know, survival instincts to make money and, you know, excel in our careers and whatnot. So I think it just goes hand in hand and, um, it's so much bigger than just, "Oh, I'm experiencing shame," or, "I'm experiencing these emotions." It's this is part of what it is to be human and to go through these flows, and we really have to come together as a society, um, and work together 'cause it's affecting all of us.

Stoy 14:56

But how do we-- Like, we all do work in this space. Like, we all somewhere touch this to help all of us, right? Um, and the, the part that is always toughest is, one, we keep having these conversations, both one-on-ones with our clients, um, groups, podcasts, articles. And I get a feeling from people that content... Or content, jeez, engage or, uh, comment on our stuff of, "Yeah, but I can't even get through the door. I can't even open it, crack it a little bit for myself because it's so heavy for me. It is so heavy. I'm so deep in shame that, like, it keeps spiraling that I'm now more shameful for myself to even have to work with a Rachel or an Ashley or do work with Tessa or come to Christina and I just from a financial or marketing perspective." Like, it is so hard and heavy for them that they can't even crack the door open a little bit. From your guys' perspective, give us one thing or whatever thing they can do to at least like, I don't know, turn the knob a little bit before they try to knock down the door or anything to get them through that heaviness that they're feeling right now.

Ashley 16:06

I would say accepting it, like, first and foremost. Like, just name it and accept it. Uh, and I don't mean that dismissively, like just accept it and, like, that's it. But, like, sometimes we try to fight some- like, to not feel something so hard, um, that it really just exacerbates the feeling. Or if we, you know, we avoid wanting to, and it still lives there. We think if we can just put our head in the sand or, like, just it'll go away soon, or, like, if I just don't think about it, or if I just don't do this or engage in this way, like, I won't feel that. And I, I think that when it comes to change, um, so if we... And I won't go into this because this is incredibly nerdy and people will be very, very judgmental, um, of what I like to read in my spare time. But if we look at, uh, the transtheoretical, like, model of change in terms of change readiness, right? Like, we we can't just, like, live in, in denial here a- and then still expect to make change. Like, we have to be... You know, we can be in this contemplative or pre-contemplative, like, state. Um, but if we can enter into this, like, contemplative state of like, "You know what? Maybe this shame is really holding me back, and I wonder what that might be like. I wonder, I wonder what it might be like if I took some steps. What would those steps be? I really ha- Gee, I really hate feeling this way. It's so gosh darn heavy." Like, if we can just, from an acceptance place, just start to even begin to think there, um, it can help create some movement and move us to more of, like, a preparatory state of like, "Gosh, like, I heard this podcast where, like, these four chicks and a dude were talking about shame, and, like, that was really interesting. I don't know if I've thought about it in that way. And oh, like, there's people out there that can work with us. Maybe then I can take some steps." Like, th- there's a process that we move through from a change standpoint, but I, I do think that it starts with first acknowledging and just accepting, like, this is what this is. This is the lay of the land, and I don't like it, and I don't want to be here. But if I can at first at least acknowledge it, then we know how to move through. It's like the book, like, uh, "Going on a Bear Hunt." Uh, I don't know, you know, Christina, you've got a little one there, but, you know, um, if we've read the book, like, "Going on a Bear Hunt." If not, you should go read it because I feel like it is literally the map of life, of how, like, life happens. Like, you can't go under it, you know, you can't go around it, can't go over it. You gotta go through it. Uh, and to some degree, like, that's how this is when it comes to making changes, uh, certainly around, like, the emotional end.

Rachel 18:44

I

Kristina 18:45

think- I have... Oh, I'm sorry. Go Rachel. No, go Rachel. You can go.

Rachel 18:48

Well, I just have to say, Ashley, let's start a book club 'cause I have a feeling our bedside tables look very similar. I'm a big "Stages of Change" fan. I teach it- I am

Ashley 18:56

not alone. Woo-hoo.

Rachel 18:58

No, let's like, we'll have a whole separate convo

Financial Trauma Is Real And It's Treatable

Rachel 19:00

about that. Yeah, I, I really agree with that, and I think, I think also, like, the being a financial therapist, I re- I really wanna spread the word that financial trauma is a real thing, and it is everywhere, and, and it's worth treating, right? And if you have that kind of like nervous system reaction of like, "Hell no," or like blocks, huge fear, you wanna run for the hills, this is not a cognitive process. This is a physiological, your body feels in danger around the topic of money. So the, it's, it's worth treating. I would even use the word treating, and even... Because, yeah, okay, you know what you need to do, sure, but your body perceives all threat as physical threat. So that, that's where I come in, is like this is, this, we need to have safe, reparative experiences around money. Because likely, if someone's having the kind of scenario you described, Stoy, like I'm looking at this from a financial trauma lens. And not to like even put it deeper, but like to actually validate that, "Yeah, you feel really afraid. Okay." Right? And really validating that, and now we know where we're going, right? That's, that's the direction I would go.

Kristina 20:13

I'm glad you went first, Rachel, 'cause you just made me think of something else too. Um, you know, adding onto what you were saying, Ashley, not only the acceptance, but I think the understanding, as cliche as it sounds, like you're really not alone. Like I said this on the last podcast episode that Stori and I did, it's like, "Buttercup, you ain't anything special." And I mean that with all the love in the world, right? Like we all are going through some really big pivots right now. Again, having these conversations and with that being said, I think understanding like you really aren't alone. Like a lot of people are in this boat, and I think that's huge. Um, I know it helps me for sure. And then going on, like piggybacking off of what Rachel said, understanding the root cause of that trauma is huge. Like I can literally date back now to like that first financial, um, anxiety I had. I was like eight years old that I lost money that my parents gave me. And that one incident shaped so much around like my money habits and, you know, my mindset on it, XYZ. So I also think understanding the root cause of it, oh my God, that makes all the difference in the world. And then like you said, Rachel, treating it. Oh, I'm... See, guys, don't have a kid on the call with you. Geez, sorry. But yeah, I think that, that plays a big role, um, just understanding that root cause. You know, I think about all those books out there like, um, "I'm a Badass with Money" or whatever the hell it's called, and, you know, none of those books ever related to me. I don't have like this money fear like, "Oh, I don't deserve it," right? And I think like especially the online space teaches that a lot, like this, this deserving factor around money when there's so many other elements to it. So it-- I remember when I first started really thinking about that like, "Oh wow, like I don't, I don't relate to this. What do I relate to?" And that's when I started to figure out the root cause. And man, if you can do that, I'm not saying it gets easier, but it gives a lot of perspective. It gives, and it helps you give yourself some grace.

Tessa 22:13

Yeah, so important to give yourself grace, um, just throughout this process 'cause like you said, we're all going through it. No matter what stage, even when you hit your next level, you're now trying to keep getting to someone else's level. Um, so, you know, it's always just give yourself grace with that process. Um, and I'd also say that when you're deep in that sh- um, shame spiral and it feels kind of just like nothing is working, um, some like quick hacks is that not using productivity as a way to like release that anxiety. Because what happens is anxiety leads us to more work, I just need to do more, have more, and it gives a temporary relief that just teaches the nervous system, "Okay, we- we're gonna give more anxiety," because it's like a cyclical process in that. So taking time to reconnect with just what's around you and kind of settle the nervous system, you know, going out and sitting in nature by a big tree, going and taking a walk. Like nature is one of our most abundant resources and something that can help us, you know, not consciously but subconsciously get out of that scarcity mindset that we don't have enough and there's not enough available to us. Um, or just, you know, sitting down and doing a, a deep breath center meditation, um, eating a really nutritious meal and just feeling, you know, that the body kind of, um, be satiated. All of those are kind of signals to transition out of fight or flight, so then you can actually just look at the same situation through a different lens.

Stoy 23:51

First of all, Tess, do not attack me like that again, please. Okay? I was not prepared for you to just throw me out there like that. No. Um, I felt that one

Chin Up, Take The Next Step

Stoy 24:00

more to my core because I, I do that with anxiety. I just do more work and then I recognize, well, that's a bad cycle, but... And then I keep doing it. So, uh, I definitely appreciate that. Uh, I would say kind of what I told my son last night, um, after soccer tryouts 'cause he didn't have a good tryout on the seventh day of, of the tryouts and I was in-- all I told him was, "Just put your chin up high and take the next step forward." I don't care what that step looks like for anyone out there, like whatever your goals are, where you're at, just hold your chin up high and take a step forward because you are able to get through it, and you have to go through it. But if you do it with your chin up high, things are just a little easier. Things are a little lighter, um,

Ashley 24:40

and yeah. Did you sing the "Frozen" song, the "Do the Next Right Thing"?

NoBS 24:57

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