Shun Foreman: The Dark History Behind Sugar No One Talks About

Most people think sugar is just a health issue—but the truth goes much deeper.

In this episode, we uncover the dark history behind sugar no one talks about—a story that goes beyond cravings and calories and into slavery, sugar plantations, and systems like convict leasing that continued forced labor long after emancipation.

Registered nurse Shun Foreman shares how her journey started with understanding sugar’s impact on the body—diabetes, metabolic disease, and chronic illness—and led her to a much bigger realization: the story of sugar has been largely left out of what we’re taught.

This conversation connects the dots between:

•  the historical roots of sugar production 
•  the exploitation tied to sugar plantations 
•  the long-term impact on communities and health 
•  and why sugar continues to affect behavior and well-being today 

We also explore why awareness alone isn’t enough to break free from sugar—and how understanding your deeper “why” can change the way you approach it for good.

If you’ve ever struggled to cut sugar, felt stuck in cycles with food, or sensed there’s more to the story than “just eat less,” this episode will give you a perspective you likely haven’t heard before.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Background

FLORENCE 0:02

Welcome everybody to an interview today with my friend. Oh, it says Sugar Modoff, but that's okay. Her name is Cassandra Foreman. Is that actually how you say it? I don't think I said it quite right now.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Shun. We talked Sean. Yes.

FLORENCE 0:14

Sean Foreman. And let me, I'm going to read you her bio as she wrote it because it's so good. Sean has been raising awareness about the devastating impact of sugar on communities of color since 2019. For years, she believed cotton was king when it came to slavery, but deeper research revealed that there was also an unmentioned queen sugar. Her thesis, her master's thesis, led to a pivotal master's, right? Yes. Led to a pivotal conversation with the late Mr. Reginald Moore in Sugarland, Texas, where she learned that convict leasing, a system that kept black people in bondage long after slavery, had been left out of her history books. Later, while visiting sugar plantations in Louisiana, she came face to face with the weight of what it means when history is left untold. As a nurse for over with over 26 years of experience, Shun has empowered over a thousand women to cut back on sugar. And now she's also talking about flour and ultra-processed foods to improve their health. For her, the truth is simple: sugar devastates health and perpetuates bondage. Welcome, Shun.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm so grateful to be here. Again, you know, it's you, you know, you are you're everything in this space to me. And I'm just grateful to be invited and to have another opportunity to speak at the summit.

FLORENCE 1:45

Yeah, and you have such a unique lens on this, like the the uniquely devastating impact sugar has had on communities of color and not just metabolic health and mental health, but literally tied in with slavery. My understanding is that actually was sugar that started the whole slave trade. Am I right? They came over to operate sugar plantations and then cotton came into the picture. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Well, it's my understanding that cotton was first.

FLORENCE 2:11

Oh, was it? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Yes, yeah. At least for the United States, uh now for uh the South or the Caribbean islands, I think sugar was the thing then, you know, for for those islands. But for the United States, I believe uh cotton was first.

Tracing Sugar Back Through History

FLORENCE 2:28

Wow. I mean, but both outrageous. No, I think that the the sugar plantations in in uh the Caribbean, um, and then there was a rum, a run, rum trade. And but basically the bottom line is that where there's substances that are addictive, there's this voracious appetite, there's there's commercial interests come into play, and and people become monsters. Um tell us a bit about what it was like for this revelation. You're like that you wrote your whole masters on this. Like, take us back in time when the light bulb started to go on for you.

Sugarland 95 And Convict Leasing

Plantation Tours And Erased Suffering

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Well, I mean, it, you know, it's it's so crazy because that was what in 2017 when I actually started writing about it. And then it it and it's still very emotional. It's very emotional because from just using my lens as a as a registered nurse, I really had started to understand, oh my goodness, right, sugar is a problem when we're talking about not just diabetes, because at one point in my life I did think just sugar was a you know for diabetes. And then when I was able to learn and attach all of the other things, metabolic syndrome, weight and um cholesterol, and also um, and of course, diabetes and hypertension, when I was able to take it beyond that lens, and I was actually reading a book called Post-traumatic slave syndrome by Dr. Jory DeGrew. And that book is the thing that actually helped me to understand that for whatever problem you have, as specifically speaking as a Black American, you might want to try to take that issue as far back as you can. So, if, for example, if I myself were struggling with alcoholism, then I might want to look to my parents and see if there were some problems with alcoholism there. But then she also encouraged for you to take this problem back as far back as you can. Speaking to slavery, and so that's what I was able to do with the topic of sugar is just not not just look at the cavities that that I had as a as a child growing up, but take the problem with sugar to my parents. Did I see any problems there, you know, with sugar or overuse or over abuse of uh sugar? And then take it back to slavery. And of course, I mean, the biggest thing is to think um that, oh, I was coming across, you know, something that hadn't been talked about or hadn't been studied. But the reality is there are several books out there that will educate you on the topic of history and sugar and African Americans or uh African Africans period or the African experience when it uh relates to sugar. And it wasn't until then that my eyes really started to open up and say, whoa, we've got we've got a problem, because if if I wasn't taught about sugar and slavery, then what else is going on out here? You know? Um, and I think when I when I think back, because you brought up the the topic of rum, and I was like, I think that as you know, when I think back to being a student in school, rum was always mentioned. Well, we had to think like what actually makes rum? You've got to have sugar. And so even that part not being like, I couldn't dissect dissect that as a child or as even a high school student or even a college student. I wasn't able to pull those pieces together and say, oh, sugar was this and sugar was that. But when I when I began to open up my eyes, it also seemed like the universe was also tapping me on my shoulder to say sugar is the thing. I don't know. My favorite show at the time was Queen Sugar. And it's just one of those shows that uh it didn't last for very long, but the time that it did last, it was just basically showing how black land owners would lose their land, but it was just kind of like this whole part of it that, you know, to to to actually grow and make sugar, it took a lot of land. So you you're looking at a lot of black landowners losing their land because of sugar, you know, and and the things that would happen later on in history. But the other piece of it too was there was actually a part in Sugarland, Texas. My my husband and I, we happened to be dropping off my daughter for a camp, uh, for a summer camp. And we were in Sugarland, Texas, and my husband asked me the question, why do you think this place is Sugarland? And I was just like, God, mate, like you, you gotta know like why it's named Sugarland. But also, while I'm down there, there's uh there are this these articles that's coming through my ne in my news feeds and it's talking about Sugarland 95, Sugarland 95. Okay, what is Sugarland? I didn't know what Sugarland 95 was, but it happened to be that there was bodies that Fort Ben ISD uh discovered while they were trying to expand their administration building. And those bodies were the bodies in the graves of the convict lease who happened to be forced into what we would call today slavery, but in the form of a prison system. So wealthy landowners and a prison system working together, and then you have to make these unique circumstances to uh incarcerate like men that force them right back into the work of slavery. So this is post-emancipation. And of course, with me just reading the newspaper articles, I kept coming across his name, Mr. Reginald Moore. Reginald Moore, Reginald Moore. And I was just like, let me just try to reach out to him because there's no way that I can understand history, which is reading. Sometimes there's so much left out. And of course, there was a lot left out. And when I was able to contact Mr. Reginald Moore, he said, if you want to know more, just come come down here and we can just talk and I'll show you what I what I can and I'll teach you what I can. And it was, I had a moment where with meeting with him, my eyes really just started to open up to that there was this intersection of sugar that had not been really, at least I hadn't understood it. And when we were at the gravesite, he said, you know, for all of his time, he had been working on Sugarland 95 and and the problems with sugar land taxes and convict leasing for over 20 years. But he mentioned to me that he had never made the connection between sugar and health. And he encouraged me to do the work. And so that was the beginning of just my my world opening up, and I think maybe even just standing what I'd say like standing with a hero who's gone uh now, he's not with us now, but standing with a hero that he wouldn't be mentioned in the history history books, and neither would his work, and and potentially if the work he had that the work he had done, if he hadn't talked about it, there was a chance that it would never be mentioned. And it became really clear to me that we had a problem with sugar, and that maybe that I should just continue to work and look at this topic. And of course, I'm in the middle of writing this thesis, and it is still, like I say to this day, very emotional thinking about it. But that visit with him forced me into a place with sugar. And at least I would just pick up, you know, if I was drinking a can of soda, if I saw the word sugar, I'm like done. I'm not doing it. I'm just I'm done. And it kind of just sparked my motivation and my ways with and my behavior with sugar, not really thinking so much about addiction. I did know that history was a piece that I wanted to stay connected to because that conversation with him led me to many other conversations. And those conversations stick to my, like they are a part of my why to this day. Everybody knows when you're in the sugar space, you can't just walk up in here and say, I'm gonna quit you. You you really do have to have a why. And for me, my why still stays very deeply connected to the topic of slavery, for slavery and convict leasing. But even with that, I wanted more history. So I was like, let me push myself down to the plantations in Louisiana. And that led me to another type of understanding about history, which is when you tour most of those plantations, you'll see and you'll hear so much about the master's narrative. And I'm like, oh, like, I mean, this is cool. Well, what about the people that look like me? And I remember asking uh one of the tour guides one day, like, I'm just like, how do how did most of the enslaved, you know, how did they die? You know, and and she said, Well, I think it was just heat stroke. And and it just the answer was just the just I think, and and just the casual, you know, response. And when you look and you think about sugar uh work and slavery, that it was the worst of all slavery to do, and that when people were forced into the sugar work, they were literally given about a four to a seven-year window to live. And it just made me just say, we, you know, there's so much of this conversation that's left out. And maybe there's something that I can do, but meanwhile, I've got to get the paper done. When I do eventually wrap up the paper, it was the hardest thing for me to do. And I still say I want to go back and rewrite it because uh I think it was just too much to process emotionally, because I already understood as a nurse, or just myself, I understood, you know, uh cavities. I understood that if, you know, you couldn't go to sleep with sugar on your teeth because it would create the cavities. But then I had this other window that I had to accept, which is diabetics and seeing people who had amputations and family members who had to go to dialysis and receive transplants. And there was just this whole thing that I don't feel like you can get done, you know, with the thesis. I I really don't. It was a little bit ambitious for me to think that I could cover it all, but um, I guess the biggest thing today is that it continues to be my why, the why as to what centers me and keeps me away from sugar, you know, as much as I can. And then the other part is just the why as to if this was omitted from history books, and it stands as a focus point as to the brutality that people who were of African descent were harmed. If it was left out of the book, whether it was left out intentionally or not, it's still history. And just even the unlocking and the keeping away of history, I've learned that it's a privilege. Like that's a whole privilege place to just lock out and dismiss someone's history. And it's it always kind of reminds me of language and how like sometimes I think uh I continue to try to work, you know, around patients and just keep the language very simple. And how we have this thing called layman's turn and you know, and and all of that, but keeping the language simple enough so people can understand it. Um, I think the whole thing happens with addiction work as well. You know, it's kind of difficult to go straight at somebody say, girl, I think you're addicted to sugar. You know, you have all the signs, you're going out of your way, but but the but the reality is is you might have to embed some type of history or why in there to start helping people a little bit more. So amazing.

Awareness Versus Action On Sugar

FLORENCE 16:00

That's where I am. Thank you for that. I might uh try and do a bit of a recap. Uh so as a nurse, you came to discover that sugar is metabolic, is unhealthy for the body. Metabolically, it damages us metabolically and with our mental health. You've got that. You understand that. And then as you were being guided to look further back, where ended the star, you know, and you started, you landed, you started to understand very clearly it's linked to slavery, which is a huge piece of American history. Huge. And it shapes your country to this day, it shapes relationships, it shapes trust, it shapes potential, it shapes who has access to quality food, who's healthy, who's the most impacted by a country that consumes more sugar than any other country in the world. All of that's embedded in the history, the roots. Let's look back at how did this happen? And you see that it, you know, slavery was a big piece of it. And then, you know, I find it fascinating. The words, oh, well, they just died of heat stroke. That'd be a horrible way to die. To be so hot, to be so burnt by the sun and dehydrated and exhausted that you literally just die four to seven years after starting, grueling long, hard days in the sun on a sugar plantation. I mean, it's it's torture. It's it's unbelievable. And so there's all of this 300 plus years of communities of color having already been deeply damaged, damaged, damaged, exploited, enslaved, and then convicted back into slavery. And then we've got the statistics that show that communities of color are the are the most damaged. They're the ones with the highest diabetes rates, the highest obesity rates, the highest mental health rates, all of it, right? So you're you're saying that it's really helpful for us to understand the history of this and to understand, especially as women of color, men and women of color, communities of color, that we have lots of really good reasons to give up sugar, but they go deeper than just what they're doing to our teeth at night and our pancreas, et cetera. That this is literally about understanding that this has been a form of oppression that has been going on for hundreds of years, and that we can't talk about liberation, we can't talk about freedom, we can't talk about oppression without also talking about sugar.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Yeah. Yeah. That's so true. That's so true. You know, it it really makes me think about just um for for a while I've worked in the awareness space, and I think it's it's really important to work in awareness that awareness really is just like a head space. You know, when you're bringing in information, you're trying to receive it, you're download, you bring it in, you know. But awareness is not action. You know, your body, you've got to really take those steps and do the mental part and the physical part. Because I always say you got these two pieces that you're dealing with when you're trying to break away from sugar. You've got to deal with that mental part and that physical part. So, and I I like to think of just how important it is for some people need more awareness work, or they need more why, or they need, and and to me, what better way to weave in sort for for most for most African Americans, we the our understanding of our own history is is like is erased. So when you can see it as a bigger picture and say, oh wow, you know, of the 12 million or so Africans who were forced into slavery, that 70% of them went to sugar colonies, then whoa. This that's big. It's huge. Yeah.

FLORENCE 20:05

Huge. And the convict um program, so they were coming up with arbitrary reasons, reasons to incarcerate black men. And then these black men were being sent back to the plantations to work the land as convicts. So it was basically a backdoor to slavery. How long did that go on? And how many people were impacted by that? And what ended it?

SPEAKER_01 20:29

That's a you are asking me to dig into the history that I've kind of like not really remembered so well. So, but thank you because I'm definitely going to go back and look it up after we're done. Um, I do, you know, it happened after emancipation. So once we were free. Uh, and I don't know the exact date uh as to when they say that it ended. But and when I talk about convict leasing, I specifically am talking about like sugar in Texas. You know, I I don't because there were other types of convict leasing that occurred in other states, but for me, I was just completely unaware of convict leasing and um sugar plantations, period. I I didn't even know that sugar was that we had plantation. I always thought like, like I say, cotton is king. Um and then on top of that, you know, one of the most the best sugars in Texas, you know, when you had imperial sugar on your table or in your in your pantry, then you had the best sugar. And that was formed, that started in Sugarland, Texas, you know. So I don't have the the history, the numbers. Uh I still don't think that uh, because I still try to stay um closely connected to the story of Sugarland, Texas and the people who do the work in that area, they I don't know if they know if all of the gravesites and the bodies have been uncovered. I don't know.

unknown 22:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

I do think that at some points that they believe that they could have, and at least Mr. Moore believed that, you know, bodies could have been discovered, but not, you know, somebody may have not mentioned it.

FLORENCE 22:20

Right. I've often heard sugar described as white man's poison, even though technically it didn't start. You know, started apparently India, maybe. I've also heard maybe um Indochina. I don't, I think it's a little, a little bit sketchy that way, but certainly we can see that, you know, 1000, 2000 BC, there was mention of sugar in some ancient Indian um ceremonies, uh spiritual ceremonies. And then we know it went over to Europe. I'm sorry, it went over to Iran. It was showed up in Egypt. So, but still, it wasn't till white men came along and decided to really, really refine it and turn this into a major commercial enterprise that then evolved slavery. But really, I've heard it described as white men's poison. And it isn't a poison that just poisons communities of color, although disproportionately they're impacted. I mean, it's poisoning everywhere, everyone, everywhere, all around the world, wherever there's sugar, there's an ultra-processed foods and the whole, you know, bigger conversation around that. We see, we see rising rates of all chronic disease. But I yeah, I just feel like it's helpful for communities of color to think you've got an extra reason now to see it as poison, to see it as just another form of oppression, keeping you stuck, keeping you frustrated and uh economically impoverished and physically impoverished. So yeah, it's a it's to support the rally cry for freedom. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

For sure.

FLORENCE 23:47

Right. Right, right, right. And whenever there's oppression, I mean, we're as strong as our weakest link. No, no one wins when any part of any community, you know, is is oppressed and suffering. That's so true.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

I mean, you know, when you when you think about it, it's just that um when you don't have that clarity, you know, about sugar. Uh because if you if you're just coming to someone and you just just tell them, hey, I think you're eating too much sugar. And yet you can see somebody that's thin eating sugar and they don't look sick. So it it's just so you have to for me, you gotta have another tool in the kid. Gotta have another tool in the kid. Yeah. So it it it it does work um to help some people to get to get them to see that, you know, their freedom is is closely connected to um to me, like, or bondage for sure, is is connected to how much sugar they're eating. Because it's the whole mental, the mental clarity that you lose. I mean, you know. Uh, if you're overindulging in sugar, taking in sugar is just is it's a it can be recognized too, I think.

Sugar Mode Off Programs And Community

FLORENCE 25:10

Wow, totally interesting. Yeah, there's there's a concept of internalized sexism, internalized racism, where you take on the perception of the oppressor. Um but that whole idea of where every single food choice, you're perpetuating bondage, you're perpetuating self-harm, you're perpetuating this form of poison that has done centuries and centuries and centuries of traumatic impact on communities of color, on all people, but this unique lens on this, right? So you've been trying to inspire, and you are inspiring women through your company or your brand called Sugar Mode Off to help them to wake up to this on all the different angles for lots of good reasons. We need to unhook from this stuff. So tell us a bit about Sugar Mode Off and what you do and what you've learned over the years of trying to inspire people to reduce, if not eliminate, their consumption.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Yeah, it's it's been an interesting ride. So since 2019, I uh started a Facebook community called Sisters Breaking the Bonds of Sugar. And I I don't know why, but I felt like it was really important for me to establish that space as an awareness space because I really felt like people were uh most people were gonna be like me and not have any knowledge or understanding of how this problem with sugar is a compounding problem. So I use that space uh and I've got over, there's like over 900, I think 950 women in there right now, to where I really just use it as some sometimes I'll go through the ABCs of sugar and sometimes I'll be like, let's swap this for that, you know. Uh uh sometimes I'll try to do challenges, but as you know, when you've got a Facebook community, uh sometimes you don't know who's still active or who's still participating. And so now I've expanded that to what I call like an action taker group, which is on school. And through that app, uh, for one, it helps people to put a little bit more skin in the game, just um to pay uh to put a little skin in the game because nobody wants to lose money. Uh, but I also try to focus on just helping them to gain some confidence in going to their doctor's appointments because it doesn't matter whether I call it A1C or I'm trying to help you lose weight or I'm trying to help you with the mental clarity. At the end of the day, most people are going to have those interactions with their physicians or their providers, and they want to be active participants in that care. They don't want those visits to be passive visits to where they're just there and the doctor tells them you need to eat more and you need to, I mean, eat less and you need to exercise more. And oh, by the way, you have high blood pressure, and here's the pill, and we'll come back and we'll check your labs in another six minutes. Nobody wants to feel that way. And so in this, what I call like an active group, I really try to help them to understand how that when they are decreasing their sugar and they tell me, Oh, I lost, you know, my God, I lost my 15 pounds and my thing. And I'm like, okay, well, how do you think you're gonna feel when you go back to get your labs done? And then when people come back to you and they're like, oh my god, girl, this really worked. And I'm like, yes, it's why do you think I'm here? No, but it's really just trying to get them to have um, you know, in a lot of ways, it's it's really like trying to build trust both ways. Um, there is a significant amount of mistrust um out in African American communities, and I don't think that's anything that's new, it's documented. Um but the reality is we do have a lot of medical professionals who are nice and they're trying their best. But if you've got the other piece of the puzzle, which is the patient who may not understand when you're telling them we're gonna draw labs, you're gonna draw the A1C, what an A1C is or why you're drawing it in the first place, then there's a gap, and that gap becomes wider and wider every time you you don't address either party's needs. So I I like uh for you know people to come back to me and say, oh my gosh, you know, this this happened and I've created the change, and uh the doctor wants to know what I've been doing, you know, you know, so it really is just about opening up and making the relationship better for everybody, right? Everybody, everybody wins when they're cutting sugar. Everybody, their family, they they become better employees, they become better wives, you know, wives and uh sisters, you know, so it works for everybody.

FLORENCE 30:25

Mothers, totally. Yes, better mom.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

Everybody, that's that's my kids about sugar, sugar mo sugar mom, you know, sugar shine. They'll they always call her sugar shine.

Simple Rules For Cutting Sugar

FLORENCE 30:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I know, yeah. My daughter can tell could tell too when I I'd slipped or I was in the ditch or was in the junk food, I was more snippy, I was more jacked up. Like she'd be like, Well, she could sense it right away. It's really real. It would dysregulate my nervous system. And um she would sense it. Um so what you're saying is that uh empowering them to learn a little more. What are the labs, why are they done, what do they mean? How can we do what lifestyle changes can we make? Starting with getting off of the junk food and onto the whole foods, can help them feel like, hey, I know something about my body. I know something about those labs. So I can enter into the doctor-patient relationship, say informed and confident and eager and excited about, you know, you you watch the labs, I'll do the lifestyle changes. You watch the labs, and together we can celebrate my progress instead of me coming in feeling like, this is serious, I'm gonna need a pill. Right. It's serious and just start with getting unhooked from sugar and and ultra-processed foods and see what that does. Because most people are shocked, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 31:43

Right. They're you know, because the whole thing is just there's so much out there targeting every consumer about what's healthy, you know, if it's raw, you know, 100% organic, you know, vegan. And and you know, it it doesn't take long for you to try it all, you know, when you're searching for the answer. And so some people just, you know, I like to keep it simple. Girl, I'm not telling you to look at your calories right now. I'm telling you to look at that sugar content. You know, look count those, count your carbs. That's that's sugar. That's a fancy way of saying sugar. That's just fancy. That's it.

FLORENCE 32:24

Right, right, right. Awesome. Is there anything else you would like to share about your work, your message, your hope for people who might be listening to this?

SPEAKER_01 32:36

You know, I really think that we can all just it's so weird because I I see sugar as this kind of um there's like peace behind everyone who understands like once you kick it or you cut it that you're feeling better. And it just makes me wonder about like what would you know an ideal world look like, you know, if we were all off sugar. And I know we'll we'll never get there. I'm I'm I I'm not um so I know things don't typically happen like that, but I do know that it's created change in my life, and I've seen it create change in a lot of other people's lives. And I think when you when we've got so many answers coming to us, we've got medication coming to us, we've got um other fads and other diets coming to us. Some people say go to the gym and exercise all day, you know, there's so much information coming to us, and I love to respond that it's as simple as looking at sugar, at least first. It's as simple as looking at sugar. I think everybody's why is different. Uh, I've learned over time that some of us are holding on to qualitative needs and some of us are holding on to quantitative needs. Uh, and I think sugar sits in the middle of giving you more of a higher quality of life and also helping you to feel better while you're here. So, for the person who has lost hope, who's looking at the summit, people like myself and Florence and all of the other people who have spoken, we're not just here just to toot our own horns. That it's not that at all. Like, literally, this work is life work. And because we believe that it is helping to help somebody's life better. And that's pretty much it. If you are, if you want to, I'd love for you to join me on my Skull app. There's you can do a seven-day uh trial, and there you'll get what I have is the before the breakthrough journal. And it's a reflective journal. But uh, for the first seven days, I think you have to be convicted if you're saying you're gonna quote unquote change your life with sugar. And the way I look at it is you'll look at your food, your mood, and your money. And that pretty much tells you a picture that a lot of people haven't faced, even if they don't look at the history, they will start to get some idea of like, what I didn't know. I'm spending like a hundred dollars on food in two days. Yeah. Yeah. Or either, oh, I didn't realize that an hour after I eat lunch every day that I feel sleepy. So some of those things you have to do. That's that's what I call like the reflection work, and that's free if you join me for the seven days. Um, but if you want to go beyond that, then let's let's do it. Um, but but not just my platform, there's so many different uh people who have been on this platform. There's a way for everybody. So I just think once you find your tribe, then you just need to lock in and go for it.

FLORENCE 36:21

Amazing. So if we Google Sugar Mode Off, you'll come up, and then the options to be in your world and follow you and be inspired by you will come up. Okay. Wonderful. Ah, thank you so much for this interview today. Thank you. Um, thanks everybody for tuning in today. I hope you felt inspired, and we will see you in the next interview. Bye bye.