#6 Why Setting Boundaries So Important? With Bryana Kappadakunnel Owner of Conscious Mommy

What are boundaries? 
Why setting personal boundaries is so important?
What gets in the way of us setting boundaries?
What is the difference between a power struggle and holding boundaries?

Bryana Kappadakunnel, a licensed marriage and family therapist with over 12 years of experience and the owner of Conscious Mommy, shares her unique perspective about boundaries, why it’s never too late to start setting boundaries, and what healthy boundaries look like.
Here are links to connect and follow Bryana: Website and FB Group.

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You could also  benefit from listening to:

• #26 What Do Time Boundaries Look Like for Parents and Kids?

• #34 How to set boundaries for your child?

As a certified parent coach, I aim to help you set boundaries with compassion.
So grab your FREE Compassionate Parenting Guides now!

You can also:

• Join an ONLINE workshop
• Contact me
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• Learn how I can help you.

Remember to treat yourself and your children with compassion and curiosity. 🫶

Transcript

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Bryana: 0:00

And then we grow up to be adults who feel very complicated emotions. About boundaries because we have no framework from childhood.

. Tammy: 0:08

Hey Rihanna. I'm so happy and excited to have you here. How are you today?

Bryana: 0:14

I'm doing well. Thanks Tammy, for having me always love to have excellent conversations with fellow great human beings. So thank you.

Tammy: 0:23

Well, it's my pleasure to have you here. And we want to jump into talking about boundaries. And I want to start with, what do you think about borders? How do you look at them? I know you have a great approach,

Bryana: 0:37

absolutely. So, I look at boundaries of perhaps a little bit differently than some folks. So some folks might identify boundaries as, rules or limits. And the underlying idea is that. It's to control another person's behavior. I have a boundary because I want to make sure that I am in control of somebody else. And I really fundamentally disagree with the idea that we are even capable of controlling another. Nor is it necessary that we control another person. So I tend to teach boundaries as a bridge that is built between me and somebody else that teaches each other. This is how we get to be in relationship together. So my boundaries are really about me protecting my own needs for safety, physical safety, emotional safety, but also me extending myself in a way that is the most authentic that it can be. so, you know, it's a Vandrey violation for me. If somebody is, speaking poorly about somebody else in front. I don't like to hear other people being spoken about poorly. So I might have a boundary about that. You know, I understand that you, I, it sounds like maybe you're looking for. Compassion right now. Sounds like you had a hard time with that person. And I want to be clear that I won't participate in that kind of dialogue. So that's me setting a boundary, but really it isn't about me limiting the other person. It's about me saying, Hey, I see you. I see what's going on for you. And this is how I'm willing to be in relationship with. It's really a beautiful way to structure our relationships and allow us all to feel safe and seen and understood.

Tammy: 2:34

I really like how you describe it as an extension for love. And I think one of my first posts on Instagram, there was a quote saying for two ropes to make a, not each one of them. Must let go. Part of his length. And what I like about your approach is , you're not emphasizing the let go part like the giving up part, but you are emphasizing the part of, I need to define for myself, what is my rope? What is the part that I'm not giving? Cause that's my boundary. That's defined who I am so I think that's brilliant. And thank you for saying that, which leads me to the next question, which is why are boundaries so important?

Bryana: 3:19

Well, boundaries are essential for every functional relationship. If we do not have boundaries, whether they are physical boundaries around. Behaviors that don't feel good for us or even psychological boundaries around a psychological ways of being with folks that don't feel good to us, light control or manipulation, emotional abuse, et cetera. If we do not have those boundaries, we are going to suffer., we will likely feel like we are to blame. We are the fault and go right into those narratives of look at what a failure I am look at how bad I am. Look, I'm not capable of,, making this person happy. Therefore, I must be a failure. And when we're living in that kind of mentality over and over and over again, it really wears us down. It leads to more depression. It leads to anxiety. It leads to serious overcompensation. And. Just kind of eats away at our joy takes away the meaning of what we're doing here and why we're here, which I really believe is to find joy in our relationships to find pleasure in our relationships yet their relationships are hard and they're very hard work and, and boundaries are an important part of that hard work. Many families that I work with it's like one or the other. They either had so many boundaries that there was no real emotional connection.' cause there were even boundaries around like ways to express emotions that like only anger can be expressed if you're a certain gender and only anger can be expressed in a certain way, depending on our religious beliefs or our cultural beliefs. So we have that one that end of the spectrum. And then the other end of the. Are the super enmeshed boundaries or what I like to call boundaryless systems where there are just no boundaries around personal needs and personal, , space. And so, in those systems, it feels like a real betrayal to have a boundary you're not loyal to the family and the family culture and the family way, by. Expressing, Hey, this is what I need, or this is what feels good to me. So when we really honor boundaries, we honor that every single person on the planet has a right to exist in a way that feels the safest. Every single person on the planet has that. Right. And therefore, every single person has a right to set a boundary that says whether or not something works for them. And, and I think when we really start to kind of get aligned with this and see this as this is the, the way to be in relationship with each other, I just think it cultivates so much compassion, so much understanding and a lot more connection amongst each other. Of course, I teach this concept within the, child-parent relationship because this is where boundaries are birthed. Our ability to either set boundaries are hold boundaries or whether or not boundaries are even allowed really begins. Right. When the child is put into the parent's arms, do we accept the child's boundaries around their sleep needs, how the child likes to be fed, how the child likes to play, how the child is exploring friendships, how the child is, demanding, the ways they'd like to use their time. You know, I think a lot of the times for parents, because this is the primary population that I work with our parents is we, we believe as adults, we get to have boundaries, but children don't get to have boundaries. They don't get to have a say in what it is that they need, or they don't get to have a say in how it is that they feel or what feels good for their bodies. And then we grow up to be adults who feel very complicated emotions about. About boundaries because we have no framework from childhood. And so it is a bit of a complicated conversation, which is why I'm glad we're having it.

Tammy: 7:38

Yeah. And so important one. I want to touch base about something you just mentioned. Like when we have conflict with a child, , what parents who listens to us might ask himself to distinguish whether this conflict is a power struggle or he really trying to set and hold boundaries and help his child to build up his phone.

Bryana: 7:59

Absolutely. That's an, that's a great question. And, , I want to circle to trust because trust is fundamental to every healthy relationship, trust and boundaries. Of course there is, there are other key fundamental factors, but, Being able to trust myself, being able to trust the child or any other person that we're in relationship with. We can't have a healthy relationship with them. If trust is not there, it is going to be ripe for our own projections, our own expectations, our own needs. And not that bridge that I'm talking about, the bridge that is an extended. This is an extension of my love for you. This is what I'm willing to accept. Where is your bridge? Let me see an extension of your bridge for me. And that is what we are constantly figuring out in relationship with our children. Most of the time when we are coming into conflict with the child and it has to do with a parent has one boundary and the child has another boundary. It is a pointless power struggle. Most of the time when it is. That we hold our boundaries with a child is when it has to do with their safety. Otherwise the vast majority of boundaries that we, , are setting for our children, which let's be real, are really just roles and limits and ways that we're trying to control them because we need them to be controllable. So it is convenient and comfortable for. Right. That's that's actually what the vast majority of us mean when we say it, my child doesn't listen to me. What we really mean to say is my child's not complying with me. Well, they don't listen to my boundaries. Well, what are your boundaries? And then we learned that the boundaries are not also taking into account what the child has also. So, remember we go back to the framework. Boundaries are a bridge of us coming together and saying, this is how we get to be in relationship together. My child throwing toys, my child pushing over my other child, my child hitting me. I have some boundaries around that. Right. I can't let you hit, I can't let you throw, I can't let you get hands on with your brain. Right. Absolutely. I have boundaries because all of those circumstances are safety related. I can't let you run in the street. I'm noticing that when we go on family rocks, you really can't stop your feet from running. And so when we go on family rocks, we're going to have to be in a stroller, or you're gonna have to hold my hand until you can really trust your body. And I can really trust your body. It's really important because it's my job as your mommy to keep your body safe. These are all boundaries. And these are all me communicating to the child. This is how we get to be in relationship as your mother. One of my main jobs is to protect your physical integrity. And this is how I am extending that to you. I have boundaries around the car seats, right? I have boundaries around the. All of these things are safety related, but my child, you know, wants to make a mess in his playroom. What is the boundary about then for me, it's about me being in control. Maybe my boundary as we clean up when we're done, but I'm not going to control the. So I really like parents to kind of think about boundaries as I'm teaching. My children had to be in relationship with me. They're teaching me how to be in relationship with them. We are establishing every day, this kind of way of being in relationship with the family. That's what. That's that's what we're teaching. So you want to make a mess in your playroom. Okay. The only container that I have for that is when we're done, we clean up, we put things back where they go, and if my child is struggling with that, then I go to my child's need. What is it that they're needing? What's the issue? Did they work extremely hard and building this Lego set and they're just not ready to, to break it apart. Do they want to put it up? Did they wait and wait and wait hours for the sibling to not be present in the playroom so they could put together the puzzle. And now they don't want to put the puzzle away because they had to put so much effort and time, not only in the waiting, but then the construction of it. Can I see that in my child and speak to that and honor that and find a way around.

Tammy: 12:16

So it's. Great and actually in my house. So my son also, he likes to build the trains a lot and early on, I think it was three or four when he build those huge structure and it was time to clean up. He was really upset and he was trying to run away. And so I asked him, why do you run away? So he said, I'm not willing to ruin all the train I just built. And so we agreed that he's going to. Clean up, whatever is not to build. He kept the whole structure, a huge structure, but everything else, it was cleaned up. And that's what we did. And it worked good like until today. Yeah. That that's the deal.

Bryana: 12:55

Right. And it can, and it can be, it can be in flex, right? We can be flexible with it, but that was you really honoring his boundary Noma. I don't want to clean this up. This is important to me. I spent a lot of time on this and, and this is really the first generation of children where a very small subset I find of parents are willing to. Except that is perfectly appropriate for a child to say, no, actually that doesn't work for me. And then it's our job as the parents to say, Hmm, let me think about that actually. You're right. I can totally see why that doesn't work for you. That makes perfect sense. And , it's still important that we take care of our things. So. Let's find a workaround. I was trained in, much of my infant mental health training to never allow a child to negotiate at all. With a parent, I was trained that a child negotiating with a parent, immediately, , ruins the hierarchal nature of the parent and the child. And it is essential that the parent is always. You know, dominant person in the child, parent relationship and they're the authority and it never felt good for me., I remember how much stress and tension it caused everybody in the room. And I felt like such an impostor feeling like I'm forcing this societal standard, that if you are the parent, you are the authority, you are the ruler. And it is the child's job always to listen, which really now I know what they meant was comply and that, there is no room for the child to see. Hey, I have a different way. There was no room for it. Now this was many years ago. And I do believe that a lot of what we even knew then has continued to evolve and we are starting to really see the child parent relationship as one. can actually have a little bit more flexibility. It can be a little bit more attuned. A can have a little bit, even more fluidity where a child being able to express what it is that they need grows into an adult who is comfortable it continuing to express what it is that they need, but also be willing to adapt and accommodate for the needs of others, because it is something that has been modeled and shown is a safe thing to do in relationships. So the argument that I always get, this is permissive parenting. This is weak parenting. Children need to know who's in charge. Right? I get all these kind of naysayers, pushing up against the idea that a child has a right, not to be controlled. And a child has a right to say what works for them too. that we're raising children who are going to be so entitled children who believe that the world's just acquiesce to everything that they are needing. And I'm adding the dramatic flare to that, by the way. but this, this couldn't actually be further from the. It is the total lack of flexibility, the rigidity and the hierarchal nature, the authoritarian nature of child-parent dynamics. That is precisely what leads to children, feeling entitled to getting what it is that wasn't met in childhood. And is ironic that we think it is the meeting of the child's needs in childhood when they are the neediest. And when they are incapable, really of getting their needs met and do rely and depend on adults, that that is what would create children who are totally needy and dependent, as opposed to what we have actually been doing, which is rural children, control children, possess child. Have a very rigid do, as I say, not as I do boundaries. And then we have children that are becoming adults running rampant, not having their needs met, not knowing how to be in a relationship where it is mutually satisfying, Because our relationship is two people where both are considered we're both are meaningful and important. would really like for us as a society to evolve even just a little bit. If in my lifetime we evolve the needle, just even a centimeter in this direction. It will make a huge difference for generations to come.

Tammy: 17:22

Yeah, I want to emphasize the part that you said that we actually need to teach our kids that ability to negotiate, and we need to show them. What is an appropriate way to negotiate. And instead of being really aggressive as a parent, because I'm a thorough team and my child needs to comply and be passive just to transfer these kinds of communication to assertive. I'm expressing my own needs as a parent. And. I would like you to respect that and it's mutual with my child as well. And so, as you say, it's such an important tool as they grow up, not to look at the world as I'm either passive or aggressive, I'm either authoritative or I'm in pleaser. It's just a healthier way to operate in the world.

Bryana: 18:14

Absolutely. Because when we trust, there we go back to the word trust. When we trust that our needs are going to be considered and met in a safe way, in our primary attachment relationships, which is our. We don't go out into the world, expecting it as much as we go out into the world, trusting that it will happen. And I believe there's quite a difference between trusting and expecting expectations are going to set us up for failure. They're going to set us up for suffering when I have an expectation that somebody meet my needs and my needs were. Appropriately seen and cared for. And childhood. My expectation is coming from a place of really lack and inadequacy. I'm expecting you to meet my needs because I haven't really effectively learned how to meet my own. And when you inevitably fail, because you will fail, you're not going to know how to meet my needs. To the degree that I have fantasized that I need you to do it right. You won't be able to do that because my expectations are going to be so high. My expectations are going to be like every moment that I am, having something. expect you to be able to read my mind. It's the whole idea. It's not that I want you to do the dishes. I want you to want to do the dishes, but really what we're saying is I want you to care for me. I want you to see that I'm struggling. That's really what we're saying. I want you to place my needs before your own. That's what we're saying. And we're saying that, and we're expecting that often because it was not adequately met in childhood. This isn't a slam Tawny to our parents. Our parents did their best with the information they had and they were working through their own darkness, their own ghosts. They were dealing with, might even stricter harder harsher boundaries for our boomer parents. So , we really want to appreciate the nuance of this type of discussion and see that the person who is expecting that their needs are met. Is the person who will at 100% suffer and probably cause others to suffer around them. Whereas if I trust that my needs will be met, I believe that relationships are a safe place to be able to mutually get our needs, met, whatever they may be, that there is a mutuality about it that each person is giving for the sake of. And then when some, when a limit is crossed, Hey, that limit is crossed. And we said it, but not in a way to block you out. It's not a wall. It's not, not a way to say it's not a way to shame somebody or to push them away. It's a way of saying, oh, that's not how I'd like to be with you. I want to find another way. Can we find another way that feels good for. Which is ironically a statement that I say to people, no matter what their age, I say that to my young children, my three, almost four year old, my 15 month old, when he bites me. Oh, I can't let you bite, honey. Let's find another way to be together as well as adults. I will say it to adults. I don't think this is really working. Can we find another way or a fender, something else to talk about? Or can we find another way to talk about this?

Tammy: 21:25

I like the distinguish between saying I'm expecting someone to do something, and it's not in my hand. So I'm giving my head. Into someone else, , trusting someone else to make me happy. And what's, you're suggesting is actually to trust the person and also advocate for yourself and say, what's your needs are. And this way it shifts the whole expectation, level to a more tangible thing.

Bryana: 21:51

And if the person is, is a trustworthy person, right? If the person has earned trust in the relationship, it takes work to earn trust in a relationship. I have many, many women, especially who I work with who have complicated relationships with their mothers. were there was no room for emotions. The boundaries were basically whatever suited the mother, the child's as a child, there was really no room for the child to have any kind of. And now as an adult, they, really get on their own power by yielding some of that power, over the mother in many ways. this now adult woman still has an expectation that mom see her and meet all of her needs, even though they have graduated from that. She's an adult now. And the way that she holds an yields up power is by, well, then you're not going to be able to see her. So taking away the opportunity to see the grandchild, because I'm still holding you accountable for an expectation that you definitely should have done in childhood. But now as an adult, I can't seem to move. So there's a lot of healing that needs to be done. And sometimes the boundaries aren't even just what we are putting out for other people. Sometimes the boundary is a personal boundary that we're setting for ourselves. In this case, setting you personal boundary around what I will continue to expect from my mom. Maybe I will expect that my mum doesn't actually understand me. Maybe that is my expectation. And my boundary is I'm not going to put things out there to try to get her to understand me. If I share something with her, it is for the sake of sharing it with her, because I want her to know me, but not because I expect her to understand me so we can see that boundaries are about every relationship that we have. The relationship with each other, with our children and that really important relationship that we have with ourselves,

Tammy: 23:56

I want to dig into something because since it's a parenting podcast, I want to hear your thought about why is it so hard for parents to set boundaries and hold a bond raise what's getting in the way, setting boundaries.

Bryana: 24:13

with their children. Well, , I think one of the biggest things that gets in the way with setting boundaries with children is, , the fear of, you know, being the bad parent, , because you've set the boundary or the fear of losing the child's love for the, and also the fear of like the emotional reaction. It's sometimes just easier to let the child do whatever they want. So I don't have to deal with the emotions. And I think that this becomes quite a problem in the child-parent relationship because the parent then starts to Harbor some resentment toward the child and feels. You know that they're a doormat and their child just walks all over them. And it really just becomes a reenactment of how this parent felt as a child where they felt walked all over and insignificant and resentful of their parents. And now we're just recreating that same dynamic with our children., and so I think what parents really need to learn the art of, and that's one of the things that I teach. Holding the limit. So holding the boundary while also holding the feelings so that both can actually be true. I can have a loving boundary with my child. And hold whatever emotional reactions they might be having as a result. And it doesn't take away from my goodness as the parent. And it certainly doesn't take away the child's. Goodness. I tell parents all the time. Well, of course your child reacted, you told them they couldn't. Well, of course, LA de there, five five-year-olds are going to try to negotiate healthy. Five-year-olds of course not. They're going to try to negotiate with you. They're going to try to push back. They're going to say your boundaries, not fair. They're going to say they want the candy. They're going to say well, okay. What if I don't have the chips? Can I have more candy? They're going to do that. Of course they are. That's what we should expect. And then we get the wonderful opportunity to teach the child. And I think so many of us were not raised being taught. So many of us were taught via fear, threats, punishments, and really, not acting out because I don't want to upset. I don't want to disturb my parents or going on the total and other end of the spectrum while I don't care. My parents are going to be angry with me anyway, might as well do whatever I want. So we, we tend to kind of be extreme in childhood. We tend to be quite black and white. And if we don't have adults teaching us about the nuance of things, right from the beginning, if we don't have adults helping us with that, we will grow into adults who are also quite black and white, which is why we are continuing to perseverate on the narrative that parents are the authority and children are the subjects. Children are to be. By the authority figure we have yet to evolve beyond this really black and white non nuanced way of seeing our relationships. Whereas I think boundaries bring a much more nuanced way of being in relationship.

Tammy: 27:12

I like how you talk all the time about the two ages of the spectrum. Like the one that grew up as a pleaser. So he used the same partner on with his kids being a pleaser afraid of. Rejecting, you know, being rejected by his own child., and so he's actually in a fear of handling it a resistance, you know, the tantrum, cause I didn't give my child whatever you want it. So that's one kind of parent and then the other one is the one that is more pushy and more authoritative. And he's the one that that's the way he grew up. So that's the way he thinks. Operate as a brand with his children. And so it seems like these, the other spectrum is just really want to control his child. Something that you mentioned at the very beginning of our conversation. And I like how you a Chico related. Clearly way, so everyone can find himself somewhere on the spectrum and do the work they need.

Bryana: 28:14

And really Tammy. I just wanted to add before you go in, somebody might be. Both. You might be afraid to set the boundary because you don't want to be displeasing in one particular relationship or with one particular child, especially a child who really pushes your buttons, who, you know, can be a little tougher. I don't want to disturb them. And then you might be super controlling over the child who is easily controlled. You might, we, we can even oscillate between all of these different spectrums here. So really invite folks who are listening to see theirs themselves in a more complicated and nuanced way that we're very rarely just one rigid way of being

Tammy: 28:57

that was a brilliant piece to add to the, to the puzzle. Thank you for that. And so continually with what we said about the spectrum, what you're proposing is saying, setting the boundaries is not opposing to also be compassionate and hold feelings for the kids. So as a parent, that actually our role is to do the both things is. Set the boundaries for ourself model, it help our children set their own boundaries and we do it while we are being compassionate and ask what's your need? What do you want? And then get help them to understand themselves. And I love this point.

Bryana: 29:36

So what I, I know that you follow me on Instagram. So, you know, a lot of what I teach is actually for the. I have so many parents who come, I have this problem with my kid, how do I fix it with my kid? And I always let them know, we have to start with ourselves. We have to start there. So if you're struggling to understand what it is, your child needs, most likely, you also struggle to understand what it is that you need. If you struggle to extend a boundary for your child. And show them, this is how we get to be in relationship together. Most likely you also struggle to have personal boundaries for yourself. So I always encourage parents to start with themselves. Something very simple that I know a lot of parents, especially parents with young children can relate to is feeling touched kids, always on you. Right on my arm, on my leg. If you're nursing on your bibs. Yeah. You just got kids always on you and it can be a little bit of a boundary violation sometimes. Right? So a personal space boundary violation to just be climbed all over. You might not like it, but you might somewhere in your mind tell yourself, well, they're just kids. I'm going to let them climb all over me and there we miss it. This is an opportunity. If in the moment I assassin notice, oh, I'm so touched out. I really think I need some bubble space. I really think it would help me keep my cool, because we know what happens when we silence that and we say, oh, it's fine. Just let them crawl all over me. 10 minutes into it. We get upset because now we're bringing in an unconscious expectation because we haven't set the boundary. We're bringing in an unconscious expectation that my child read my. And that they see that I don't enjoy this, but then I stuff it and I stop it and I stop it and I stuff it. And what gets repressed gets expressed. So now I'm erupting, I'm exploding and my kids are like, what's going on? And I'm like, what's going on? I don't know. I don't understand what just happened here. Well, it's because my boundary was very clear. I knew what I needed. did I lose you? There you are. my boundary was very. I knew what I needed in the moment. I knew that I needed some, some personal space, but I, but I chose not to speak to it. So I really invite parents to get in touch with themselves. Listen, your body. knows before your brain, what boundary it is that it needs. It knows listen to it. If it's saying, Hmm, not right now. Communicate that to your children, kiddos. I know you, I know you've loved pretending I'm Mount Everest. And right now I need some bubble space. Here's what would really work for me. Let's sit together and we can read a book and you can sit over here and you can sit over here. Or how about I sit on the couch and you guys find a comfy pillow on the floor and I'll read a story to you. Or if you really need to climb, I'll help you build a. I hope , when folks listen to this, I hope they feel like, oh, this seems so simple. It's meant to be it's an, I am not trying to complicate it. I'm really wanting things to feel accessible and simple for us.

Tammy: 32:43

Yeah. Going back to modeling. So when I'm having my coffee break, the kids knows that's the time I have 10 minutes. I need my mommy time. It's no one interrupting me and then I'm more available to them. So I know for me, it's the best and also for my kids. And I think what you are emphasizing by modeling is that now your kids is also feel comfortable sharing their names.

Bryana: 33:07

oh yeah. My, my son, my son tells me all the time. You know what, mommy, that's just not feeling good for my body right now. I think my body really, really needs a little bubble space. I'm going to go to my bedroom. Okay.

Tammy: 33:22

it's so

Bryana: 33:23

And so, you know, it's wildly wonderful to just kind of watch and see how he's navigating his own. Personal needs. And I think it's so brilliant. Especially me raising boys, raising boys who know how to navigate their own personal needs, who know how to get their needs met, be less demanding and controlling of women to do it for them as they get older, which is the societal standard. Definitely helps open up a conversation around consent. Uh, really essential boundary,, between, , partners, especially as our children get older and start to explore different aspects of their humanness. And another message that I want to get to parents. It doesn't matter how old your child. I don't care if you have adult children, it's never too late for you to start. Re-imagining how you might have boundaries with them or how you might even talk about the way you were, if it hurt them in any way and find some healing and re-establish a new way, and then work toward those mutual goals. It's literally never too late.

Tammy: 34:26

You actually just answer my question because the other day my friend told me, well, my kids, she has a teenager daughter and she's like, she's a teenager and I didn't set enough boundaries until now. I think it's too late. And then it's perfect. I answered. It's never too late. Just work on it whenever and started to establish it. I guess that the older they get, you have more resistance that you have to deal with,

Bryana: 34:51

Other way of saying that is the more flexible you need to be, because they're more in tune with what it is that they need. And they are going to have ways to get their needs met that you may not agree with. And as long as it's not disrupting your child's safety, it's not putting their life in danger. It bodes well for you too. Explore it with them, even if, you know, they might suffer a consequence because of it. So they're not going to jail. Right? You might want to deter your child from going to jail, or committing some kind of criminal act. But most of the time that isn't the case. Most of the time it is them doing very normal, experimentation and life. It's always going to be the greatest teacher, not you, you will be a secondary teacher to life itself and we have to be, and that's part of trusting. That's part of trusting ourselves and trusting our children.

Tammy: 35:48

We are being the support system.

Bryana: 35:51

that's right. Always a safe Haven for them to return.

Tammy: 35:54

Thank you for coming and sharing all those things that well, I personally haven't thought about , but you helped me kind of organize my thought around boundaries and what's get on my way to set boundaries. So thank you so much for coming and

Bryana: 36:09

Well, thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure speaking with you.

Tammy: 36:13

Have a great day.