113 | David Baltz: 50 Years Of Climbing: Old School Ethics & Timeless Stories

David Baltz started climbing in 1974 when there were only eight climbers in all of Albuquerque. Over five decades, he's witnessed climbing's transformation from a fringe pursuit requiring pitons and commitment...to a commercialized sport with grid-bolted crags and documentaries glorifying free soloing. This episode explores the clean climbing revolution that defined David's early years, the bolting controversies that followed sport climbing's arrival in New Mexico, and what gets lost when safety becomes the priority over experience. We discuss finding partners in an era before Facebook groups, the ethics of retrobolting established trad lines, Alex Honnold's impact on climbing culture, and how David approaches climbing now. 

Topics include: clean climbing history, New Mexico first ascents, bolting ethics, trad climbing at 69, helmet debates, commercialization of outdoor sports, Free Solo culture, risk versus safety, aging climbers, psychological climbing, sport climbing evolution, and maintaining old school values in modern climbing.

Watch the full episode on Youtube

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David's Mountain Project Profile

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:00:26
Kyle
When is your birthday?

00:00:01:11 - 00:00:06:18
David
My birthday is October 9th. I was born 1956.

00:00:07:03 - 00:00:08:09
Kyle
That makes you. And,

00:00:08:12 - 00:00:12:10
David
I'm 69. Yeah, I'll be 70 in October.

00:00:12:17 - 00:00:16:02
Kyle
And, How. How many of those years have you spent as a climber?

00:00:16:11 - 00:00:47:18
David
I started climbing, in 1974. I took a math class and, for the Christmas party, for the math class, the, the teacher showed the slides of Yosemite and told about these. This great climber, Royal Robinson. Just. I was I was amazed I had. I had been backpacking, you know, since I was 13 and just loved the outdoors and the mountains especially.

00:00:47:18 - 00:01:16:19
David
And just, and I social. So I love getting away from people out into the wild. So it, yeah, it began and, you know, I, I had a a lot of trouble, meeting partners. I took a class at the university and met a couple of guys that worked at the the outdoor stores in Albuquerque and, and got to know them a little bit over the years.

00:01:16:19 - 00:01:41:17
David
But mostly my start was just going out by myself and and bouldering and my hiking boots and getting used to the rock and, you know, then of course, rock shoes back then were bit small, but I did get a pair of Royal Robin's, shoes, and that greatly improved my, my climbing ability.

00:01:41:17 - 00:02:07:17
Kyle
Yeah, it seems like back then, climbing, you know, climbing is still considered a fringe sport, but back then, it truly was, talk to me about, like, what? That was like. Like, you know, you had trouble meeting partners. So I feel like people still complain about that today. I would imagine the landscape of partners and people who are even climbing in the first place are so far and few between, what was it like the like to.

00:02:07:18 - 00:02:23:29
Kyle
There's no partner finder on Mountain Project. There's no, Facebook groups like how do you meet partners? How do you meet mentors? Like how did you you know, like you said, you kind of like had to throw yourself at the sport, but like, yeah. What was that process like of almost introducing yourself to it?

00:02:26:08 - 00:02:54:01
David
You know, the thing about climbing is if you have a partner, you have to be able to trust them. And it's, and when you're new or and you're not really outgoing, developing that trust from someone else is, is a hurdle. So, yeah, I just, kept bouldering and going and hanging out in the outdoor stores and talking to these guys.

00:02:54:01 - 00:03:25:01
David
And I finally got invited on a trip to the Wind Rivers with, three other guys. And, we, we rented a car, and we drove up to to Dickinson Park in this rental Nova, Chevy Nova, and, hiked in the surf at the towers. And that was that was one of my first exposures with having real partners, you know, backpacking and carrying heavy packs and camping with four guys for a week.

00:03:25:01 - 00:03:50:12
David
And, so that that breaks the bond right there. But it getting to that point was, was a little tough. And, like I said, I think, I had gone climbing with one of the fellows, in the stands. He was looking for a bilayer on this new road he was doing in the sand years. And I said, well, I can play rough.

00:03:50:14 - 00:04:26:23
David
And so, and that was back in the day, eight days. And so we went up two pitches and slept in hammocks and, and then he said, why do you want to lead the next pitch? And I said, well, you know, I know how to swing a hammer. So I, I let up a ways and, got up about 40ft and pounded at bugaboo and under this horizontal crack and stood up on it, then noticed it was underneath a loose, probably 400 pound block.

00:04:26:25 - 00:04:53:19
David
And, so that was my first experience. And and getting scared. So I quickly back, back down and down a tad back to the belay. And we went home. But it was that was my first real experience with a partner before we went to the wind River. And and so then through that experience, he invited me to go on this other trip.

00:04:53:29 - 00:04:55:07
Kyle
Wow.

00:04:55:09 - 00:05:13:20
Kyle
So yeah, I mean, it's like I would imagine to like nowadays you can kind of like burn a relationship a little bit by not having being safety focused or, you know, xyzzy whatever these kind of cardinal sins are that we have as climbers when we're looking for new partners. But imagine back then, like once you burned the bridge, it was it was almost kind of over.

00:05:13:23 - 00:05:25:09
Kyle
Right? Like the pool of people are so small that if you get labeled as a dangerous climber or labeled as someone that the community doesn't want to climb with, you're going to be on your own. How do that kind of like pressure weigh on you at all?

00:05:26:27 - 00:05:59:23
David
Yeah, I mean it. There were probably all of eight climbers in all of Albuquerque and eight eight. Yeah. And, and then maybe 2 or 3 old timers who are, you know, climbing back in the 60s and had pretty much gotten out of it, so, yeah, it's, you know, I'm not too particular who my partners are because I, I don't like to fall.

00:05:59:25 - 00:06:31:02
David
So if I have somebody that's a little iffy, I'll, I'll just really focus on either doing something that's not real hard or just, you know, not falling because, yeah, I've only had a few partners that were pretty sketchy and, you know, spent a four days with one of them down on the stronghold. And he was he was, you know, smoking weed 8:00 in the morning and all day long.

00:06:31:02 - 00:06:36:04
David
And I'm like, yeah, I better not fall at this guy.

00:06:36:06 - 00:06:46:01
David
So, but I've had really good partners over the years. Really, really trustworthy, committed partners. And that's been great.

00:06:46:17 - 00:07:04:01
Kyle
It seems like in our meet and greet, you had said that you've been climbing for so long that the partners that you climb with, while they, you know, you have these, like, periods of good climbing partners, but then eventually they either stop climbing or they end up going another direction. What does that process been like?

00:07:04:01 - 00:07:29:19
David
it's I've stayed in touch with most of my old partners. The the trip to the wind rivers. That first trip to the Wind Rivers. I one of the guys I didn't know was a fellow named Dave Darling, and he was a couple of years younger than I was. And, Dave Darling, aka the Hulk.

00:07:29:19 - 00:07:30:23
Kyle
Was he a big dude?

00:07:31:05 - 00:07:58:08
David
He wasn't at that time. He, you know, I was, I think I was 18 or 19 and he was 16 or 17 just and, but I developed a good relationship with him. And then we were both very new climbers. The other two guys were much more experienced. And, so we ended up climbing together, for several years.

00:07:58:08 - 00:08:37:07
David
And then he ended up going in the Air Force and, was there for two years and when he came back then he was big. He was a big guy when he came back and we continued to climb, you know, that that's probably one of my best partners. I've been climbing. I climbed with him for 20 plus years until he started getting arthritis and and, but while I was in the air Force, I developed, I met another group of climbers, Paul Jurek, Mark Dahlan and Mark Leonard.

00:08:37:07 - 00:09:05:07
David
And, they were they were all, you know, gung ho and, and really trustworthy guys. And Paul and I, climbed first and Mark to, climbed for quite some time while the Hulk was in the Air Force and then continue to. And that's Park is who I did all cap with the first time. So, Yeah, I went through those partnerships.

00:09:05:07 - 00:09:34:01
David
Paul ended up, moving away to New Hampshire. Mark, Leonard, was a big time skier, so he was not real available during the winter. And, yeah. So those relationships kind of dissolved, you know, and I moved to a couple of others that, you know, or, local guys in town, those, you know, did a few climbs with them.

00:09:34:01 - 00:09:47:06
David
But that's about the time I got into hang gliding. My, my rock climbing kind of dropped off. I'd still get out several times a year, but nothing, you know, not every weekend like I'd been doing.

00:09:47:06 - 00:09:47:23
Kyle
how,

00:09:48:00 - 00:09:51:27
Kyle
How important is the partnership to the climbing experience to you?

00:09:53:16 - 00:10:16:09
David
When you have a good partner, it's it's very important, you know, that the climbing experience for me is, is always at the top. But if you can share that with a partner, it's it's twice as good. Yeah. It's, being able to share the experience with someone else is, is one of the best things you could do.

00:10:16:12 - 00:10:16:17
David
I

00:10:16:17 - 00:10:41:20
Kyle
would imagine that the type of partner you have also influences the experience that you have personally at the same time. Right. Like if you if you have a partner you don't fully trust, that's going to affect your experience in the mountains. If you have a partner that necessarily maybe isn't as efficient as you or doesn't have the same risk tolerance as you, it's going to ultimately affect how you have an experience in the mountains.

00:10:41:22 - 00:10:43:23
Kyle
Do you do you agree with that?

00:10:43:27 - 00:10:45:09
David
Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.

00:10:45:14 - 00:11:09:16
Kyle
And so yeah, I guess that's kind of like for me, like, partnerships is so important. Like it I feel like it's it's almost a direct connection to like what my experience is going to be like in the mountains. Sure. I might be able to lead the pitch and like, man, that was great. But if I was, like, subtly, unconsciously, you know, maybe this guy won't catch me or, you know, or like, you know, whatever.

00:11:09:16 - 00:11:26:00
Kyle
It ended up my being like the, the partnership to me is ends up being like probably the most important part of like, the experience. And I have a lot of people that struggle with that kind of like partnership side of it. And so I, I feel like there's a lot of like, lead rope soloing that's coming out now, like people who are just like, fuck it.

00:11:26:03 - 00:11:39:14
Kyle
You know, like, I, I don't have a good group of people. I can't really trust anybody or I haven't, you know, been able to spend the time in a network. So I'm just going to take up lead rope soloing. To have my own experience. And I think that's, you know, to each his own. I'm glad everybody's climbing.

00:11:39:14 - 00:11:44:25
Kyle
But like that partnership where you like mash and you have that vibe, it's just like, man, it's it's so

00:11:45:12 - 00:12:14:08
David
Yeah, the lead rope soloing is to me, it's kind of sad. I mean, it's there's so much mechanics to it, you know, and you're, you're missing out on the joy of, of just climbing fast and climbing fast. And while safely, you know, is is really a rush. You know, it, so.

00:12:15:12 - 00:12:35:07
Kyle
Yeah. We were, I, I've been workshopping this, like, the concept of the pillars of climbing. I think I share that with you before, performance, adventure, relationships. And, you know, we're kind of talking about this right now, but one, one of the things you added to that list, which I thought was kind of insightful, was stories.

00:12:35:10 - 00:12:50:25
Kyle
You had said stories were another pillar for you in climbing. And just the value of of collecting and sharing these stories over time. So I guess, like to you like what makes a story worth telling?

00:12:52:05 - 00:13:27:07
David
It well, it it has to be an experience that was memorable. I've done lots of climbs that I can remember very little about, but there's a few that, you know, something happened or some your partner said something or took a fall or something made that memorable. The the weather was just perfect that day or you were just climbing like you'd never climb before, something that makes them memorable.

00:13:27:09 - 00:13:47:02
David
Okay, I think we're unique as humans and that we do have memories. You know, perhaps animals have memories. We just we don't know about them, but, but memories are very important to me and to doing things that develop those memories.

00:13:47:14 - 00:14:11:26
Kyle
I, one of my goals, when I grow older, is to not be an individual who lives in regret. How would you. I'm kind of leading this question and kind of with memories, but, like, I would imagine that building a life of memories is one way to avoid that. Things that you can look back on and feel pride or, or joy.

00:14:11:29 - 00:14:19:26
Kyle
And yeah, it takes a certain level of intensity of life to like, build those kind of memories.

00:14:21:17 - 00:14:41:21
David
Yeah. And it it does. I, I remember a quote I heard years and years ago that everyone should write their own autobiography when they're 40. So reevaluating their life up to that point in time. And if there's nothing to tell, you're doing something wrong. Yeah.

00:14:41:27 - 00:14:44:18
Kyle
that's good advice. I might even say, like, when you're 30

00:14:44:18 - 00:14:45:16
David
Yeah, yeah.

00:14:45:18 - 00:14:46:17
David
Yeah.

00:14:46:17 - 00:15:01:15
Kyle
There's like some astrological science. Science or air quotes. Just saying, like, there's, 30 is a pivotal year. It's where, Jupiter goes around the sun every 30 years. And so when Jupiter hits that 30 year mark again, it's like this reset.

00:15:01:15 - 00:15:28:11
Kyle
It's and it's supposed to be like, okay, add like analyze your life. What have you done? Have you lived a good life, or have you been kind of like, self-serving or whatever? You're not on your you're not on your path. And, if that happens to you and you're not on your path, usually some sort of catastrophic event in your life happens that is meant to be served as a reset, to to reset your life, to recalibrate to, to try to get you to build another foundation.

00:15:28:11 - 00:15:47:08
Kyle
And the funniest thing about my life is that, my climbing accident happened when I was, like, 30 ish. And so it's like the universe or God or whatever. I was just like, you need to reevaluate. Like, here's a crazy catastrophic event. Like, time to think about your life. But, yeah, I think that it's important to have that kind of self-reflection for sure.

00:15:47:08 - 00:16:13:09
Kyle
And, Yeah, if you can't, they say, there's a phrase, it said, novelty is the cure to time passing quickly. The more novel experiences we can acquire in our lives, the more time slows down, and the more we feel like we've lived. And that's one thing I really love about climbing, is that every experience we have in the mountains is novel.

00:16:13:09 - 00:16:23:08
Kyle
Every route we choose is new in some way. And so it's like it's a way to directly inject novelty into our lives, like over and over again every time we choose to

00:16:23:08 - 00:16:24:19
David
go up the mountains.

00:16:24:21 - 00:16:36:01
David
Yeah. And even when you do a route again a second time, there's always new things you discover about it, you know? And,

00:16:36:03 - 00:17:02:11
David
Yeah. Novelty is, you know, your phrase. I don't remember what you said, but, you know, I translated it to one that I know it changes as good as a holiday. And so, so any time you change a routine, you introduce novelty. And, and that's, that's always joyful.

00:17:02:23 - 00:17:43:06
Kyle
One thing I've been thinking about recently as I get older is, human's tendencies to resist change, to identify yourself with certain patterns or behaviors, and then that just becomes who you are. How like, how have you dealt with that as as you've matured and growed, balancing the difference between like, being plastic enough to adapt and to change to the world or yourself as you're growing older versus building these narratives around yourself and living in them for extended periods of time.

00:17:43:06 - 00:17:52:09
Kyle
Because it seems like you, you just, alluded to the fact that you have kind of like, seen that and chosen to stay in a more adaptive state.

00:17:53:04 - 00:18:19:29
David
Yeah, I, I think that's probably why I kind of go through phases of, my primary sport climbing has always been number one. But as I mentioned, I started hang gliding. I did that for about eight years. And then after that, the kids came along and, then I got into road racing and cycling and did that for another eight years.

00:18:19:29 - 00:18:49:03
David
And after that it was CrossFit. And now it's back to climbing again. So, yeah, that that change, you know, every time you come back to something, it's it's always fresh again. And, I've gone back and, a lot of the routes I did when I was in my 20s and. Yeah, just repeating them in my 60s and, and that's been, it's been a real joy just because they're all fresh again.

00:18:49:03 - 00:18:52:17
David
And. Wow, I can still do it, right? Yeah,

00:18:52:17 - 00:19:01:28
Kyle
Do you feel like impactful stories have a bias towards, like, success or failure?

00:19:03:18 - 00:19:37:24
David
Well, that's that's an interesting question. In my 20s, a lot of a lot of it was failure. In fact, the, the group I was mostly climbing with, one of them referred to us as the rainbow or the real Red. But back off, School of Mountaineering. I that we did attempt a lot of climbs, and the style is not entirely a strap off, you know, and, but, you know, they were memorable, too.

00:19:37:24 - 00:20:08:01
David
And then at some point you have to. You have to get past that, you know, you'd have to push yourself a little more and say, you know, I we really didn't give it everything we had on that. And so, so I think failures do, do help, reach success. You know, the whole thing of getting back on the horse and, you know, you can't wallow in failure.

00:20:08:01 - 00:20:13:18
David
You just you got to decide what you did wrong and then get back in it.

00:20:14:11 - 00:20:19:05
Kyle
So ultimately, success is a culmination of multiple failures.

00:20:19:20 - 00:20:47:12
David
Yeah, I think that's I think that's the best way to learn because, if you don't fail, are you try and stuff that's hard enough, you know, or. And if you try stuff that's too hard, it's demoralizing. And, you know, you you got to use some judgment there of, of, you know, what the progression should look like.

00:20:47:22 - 00:21:16:11
Kyle
Yeah. So the funny thing about climbing is, you know, obviously, fail to the top is, an easy phrase to, to say. And I think that it could work in lower stakes environment. But with climbing, failure can mean death or permanent injury sometimes. I would say especially back in the day when you had, hexes or pitons or, you know, the lack of, technological advancements that we have today that makes climbing so safe.

00:21:16:14 - 00:21:31:00
Kyle
How do you push the boundaries back then, while still how do you push boundaries and fail while still being able to, like, come back and try again because you can fail and never have a chance to to prove yourself again?

00:21:31:27 - 00:22:04:14
David
Yeah, that the failure. Well, the failures I experienced didn't have to do with the injuries or life or death. Experiences really, they were more more about lack of motivation and, and you know, just getting in over your head and, and realizing it early enough that you don't push yourself into the situation where things get really bad.

00:22:05:17 - 00:22:16:01
Kyle
Yeah. You, you had, deemed yourself you had said that you were, considered the wild one.

00:22:17:01 - 00:22:25:02
David
I think someone else said that I would see everybody. Right. So. Right. Well, I was probably quoted from you.

00:22:25:02 - 00:22:38:10
Kyle
you or somebody else, I've got it written down here. I guess, I'm curious, you know, on this topic of stories, give me a story that kind of paints the picture of why you were, given that kind of archetype.

00:22:40:25 - 00:23:15:25
David
Mainly. Probably from a reputation of run outs and and soloing. In fact, just over Thanksgiving, I found out that one of my people I have climbed to, as in the past, referred to me as Crazy Dave or, I just found that out. Right. Peter Brandon, his daughter, actually said, oh, that's crazy Dave. But, she didn't say that to me.

00:23:15:25 - 00:23:39:28
David
And she told her high school friend of hers who happens to be married to my son. So I hear it. I hear it third hand, but, yeah. Bec, because I started climbing with hexes and stompers, which didn't fit in a lot of places, a lot of that led to forced run outs, you know, and, so I just got used to it.

00:23:39:28 - 00:24:14:16
David
And then, the friend I mentioned, Mark Leonard, who, I climbed frets back in my 20s. He he was phenomenal face climber. And we did several serious run out routes together, and we just clicked, you know, and that kind of environment. We ended up in the Brazos, which are the northern New Mexico. It's the largest walls in the state, or about 1800 foot.

00:24:14:19 - 00:24:27:04
David
They're pretty low angle, but, huge faces. And we ended up doing a couple of free solo first ascents there on site, on site, free solo first ascents.

00:24:27:04 - 00:24:27:18
Kyle
it's the

00:24:27:18 - 00:24:29:01
Kyle
purist expression of the sport right there.

00:24:29:01 - 00:24:58:14
David
Yeah. So, you know, it's something that you do when you're feeling really on the top of your game and and you're with someone you can trust. We we. I carried a ten hex, on my harness. You know, your harnesses. And I carried a ten hex, and he carried an eight hex. And we figured if we got in trouble, we could throw him in and maybe hang out until someone either recovered or someone came to rescue us.

00:24:58:14 - 00:25:24:25
David
Right? No, no, no. And, yeah, there were those were super memorable trips and, and, but yeah, probably, you know, I'm not known for technical strength, and I've known for being able to hang on a long time, and I'm known for being able to do run outs. And so that's no doubt

00:25:24:28 - 00:25:47:03
Kyle
How much of how much of that like, so the psychological aspect of climbing the, the run outs, the performance over, you know, no fall terrain. How much of that was just a byproduct of the lack of technology first? And like, it was almost like if you wanted to be a climber and you wanted to climb, you know, certain routes, it was just a part of it.

00:25:47:06 - 00:26:05:16
Kyle
Or like did did most people in the climbing space kind of like have to adapt to this kind of boulder mentality, to be a climber, or were there still ways that you could mitigate that? And ultimately, like, was being a bold climber a choice back then, or was it a requirement to to be a climber?

00:26:05:23 - 00:26:40:21
David
Yeah, it was a requirement. And a lot of people, because of that, a lot of people would get into climbing, they'd last a couple of years, and then they'd quit because they, they just couldn't get over that, that hurdle. But yeah, I mean, it's it's difficult because it's it's all a matter of judging risk. And, I know your interview with, the two that did the Goliath there, it was all about judging risk right on that interview.

00:26:40:23 - 00:27:18:23
David
And, you know, my my level of risk is if I'm going to solo something, it has to be at least two grades below my top end, you know? So it's got to be pretty comfortable. And it not very sustained. It's got to be, you know, major rests at points and and that sort of thing. So but yeah, the risk being able to judge risk and, and knowing when to back off is, is actually imperative.

00:27:18:25 - 00:27:31:13
David
And, and some people just don't have it. They'll just push the risk too hard and have real epics or or are they, they back out and quit.

00:27:31:15 - 00:27:32:06
David
Yeah.

00:27:32:06 - 00:27:55:05
Kyle
How do you how do you think about so at least for me, like yesterday we were on Fiddler on the roof with some serious run outs. The reason I feel so comfortable in that position is because I personally have enough connection with my body and my movement on rock to not feel like I'm going to come off like I don't.

00:27:55:05 - 00:28:17:00
Kyle
I'm not just like, oh my God, I feel like I might come off like, but I'm still going. It's like, no, like I ultimately feel like I'm soloing. I feel like everything I'm doing is calculated and it's perfect and like my movement is in control. I'm balanced. And so there's that level of connection internally to like my, percentage of whether or not I'm going to come off the wall.

00:28:17:02 - 00:28:50:25
Kyle
I'm not that hard of a climber, though, like I can't climb higher than 512. And so what do you think the differences between someone who might be a five, 13, five, 14 sport climber but then can't handle a route like yesterday? Where's the disconnect there? Like what is the difference between the two climbers? Because I would imagine that someone who is so technically proficient on hard climbs would think that that was a cakewalk, but there's definitely certain people that have a disconnect to that psychological risk aspect of the climb.

00:28:51:16 - 00:29:14:02
David
Yeah, I think it's people are looking for different things. You know, an NFL player is probably not going to want to play tennis. So you have you have sports celebrities that play tennis and you have sports celebrities that that play NFL and

00:29:14:02 - 00:29:19:24
Kyle
you're comparing, like a psychological climbing versus hard sport climbing as almost two separate sports.

00:29:20:17 - 00:29:29:14
David
I think they are. Absolutely. Yeah. Sport climbing.

00:29:29:17 - 00:30:05:26
David
I when sport climbing came out, I, I looked at it as these are engineered climbs as opposed to artistic climbs. So trad climbing, you know, back in the day it was all ground up. So you'd walk to the base, you look up, you'd pick out a line, and you try to run it and, and sport climbing comes out and they go to the top of the rock and they rappelled down place vaults.

00:30:05:26 - 00:30:44:25
David
It's it's all about the focus there. It's on safety and, technical ability. Whereas the focus on trad climbing is, is more aimed for I think trad climbs are much more beautiful, to do than, than sport climbs. And I kind of put sport climbing in the category of bouldering where it develops, you know, a lot of power, low risk and.

00:30:44:27 - 00:31:04:02
David
And just high technical ability. Whereas and that, you know, I'm trying to transition to sport climbing more at my age because, you know, a big fall could really mess me up. But it's been difficult. Yeah. You

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00:32:20:10 - 00:32:45:15
Kyle
Yeah, yeah. So, you know, on this topic, you know, you started climbing during the transition where clean climbing started to enter the sport, and then you also witnessed a sport climbing boom, which ultimately, because of the risk off vibe from sport climbing, adopted more people. Because I would say in general, more people are risk off versus risk on.

00:32:45:15 - 00:33:11:26
Kyle
It's just a nature of humanity. And so as climbing becomes safer, more people can access the sport. What what was that transition like in climbing for you and ultimately, like, link it to new Mexican culture, climbing culture as well, because, I think it's a, a lesser, lesser known area, lesser known topic. We we've heard the story of, of bolting in sport climbing, coming to the sport.

00:33:11:26 - 00:33:14:22
Kyle
But how has it been specific to you in your area that you came

00:33:14:22 - 00:33:17:10
David
from.

00:33:17:12 - 00:33:53:02
David
Well, New Mexico, we don't have the amount of rock that say Arizona or Colorado have, and so our, you know, multi pitch trad climbs are, are pretty focused on maybe four different areas in the state. But when sport climbing came in, there's a lot of, you know, 200ft or less crags in the state and they're open in new areas all the time.

00:33:53:06 - 00:34:34:18
David
So, you know, I mentioned that, you know, when I started climbing, there were maybe eight climbers in Albuquerque. Now, there's probably in excess of 200, 300 climbers in Albuquerque. Not that much. I mean, compared to Boulder, there's probably a thousand just in Boulder alone, right? Yeah. But, but yeah, I mean, we're pretty low population and state, but there's lines, you know, at the, at the classic climbs at the sport areas, they still not many, but there's, there's still some.

00:34:34:21 - 00:34:40:11
David
But as far as the transition, you know, I.

00:34:40:13 - 00:34:55:25
David
When I, when I started. Most of my rack consisted of beauty that I'd picked up. And that was one of the problems of finding partners if like not climbing on your rack.

00:34:55:28 - 00:35:26:00
David
But, yeah, when I met Paul and and some of the others, they had decent racks and and, you know, it. And that's when I got introduced to camps because Paul had been to had gotten into the camps, and I'd always said, I'm going to let somebody else beta test those before I trust in them. But, but yeah, you watch people take faults and camps and you go, yeah, okay, I'll, I'll start using them.

00:35:26:02 - 00:36:04:23
David
And then, And then there was, there was a fair, amount of, controversy when the rap bolting started in the state, especially at established track climbing areas. There was some bolt chopping and, and, you know, criticism and, and and so that really worked itself out because the, you know, the sport climbers would just start opening new crags for trad climbing was an established.

00:36:04:23 - 00:36:45:22
David
Right. You know, that's that's one of the things that, you know, irritates me the most is, I did I did a, a trad climb down in the coaches stronghold. And yeah, it was, it had one super run out pitch, you know, a lot of boilerplate. Easy, you know, 30ft run outs, maybe. But the one pitch you just put in a piece and went for about 80ft and,

00:36:45:25 - 00:37:15:21
David
And they got to the top and, and, you know, you're about six feet away from the balls there. And, of course, that's where you start to freak out. And, it's another smeary slab. Move on, on real old granite that kind of grinds away under your feet. So it that was one of the more terrifying situations that I've been in.

00:37:15:21 - 00:38:06:07
David
But, But a fellow bolt to the aid, a, sport line right up the middle of that thing. And, it's a classic. Now, you know, nobody does the trad line. Everybody does the sport line. But I'm looking over, you know, at a line of bolts. Ten feet from me and. Go on. What the heck? You know, there's there's tons of rock here y here, you know, so I think that's that's really something, you know, for the climbers that are doing new routes to keep in mind, it's, it's, you know, you don't need to ruin an established trad line to put in something.

00:38:06:07 - 00:38:33:11
David
You think it's going to be safer. And and that's a lot of it, you know, a you get comments from the sport climbers. Well that's unsafe. You know, it's it's not about safety. It's about flying. It's well it's it's just about climbing, you know, and if you're clipping bolts every six feet and, you know, it's just not going to be an enjoyable.

00:38:34:01 - 00:38:42:27
Kyle
Yeah. So, like, does risk make climbing more meaningful to you?

00:38:42:27 - 00:38:44:01
David
it?

00:38:44:01 - 00:39:07:13
David
It does because it tests I mean, there's there's physical test, you know, can you climb 13. Can you climb 14 right now? What's the hardest move you can do? And then there's mental tests of, you know, gee, I've got a lot of like yesterday I had a lot of anxiety, heading up into that route because I knew sustained.

00:39:07:13 - 00:39:24:27
David
It was hard. And that mental aspect of working through anxiety and just getting it under control, I think is, is a character building trait, you

00:39:25:13 - 00:39:48:23
Kyle
How do you. So to what I've been running into is I agree with you, number one, I agree with you. I think that risk adds so much depth, to the experience. And it also, for me channels a, deeper sense of flow state, a deeper sense of movement focus. When I have more on the line that there's something about it.

00:39:49:00 - 00:40:08:14
Kyle
And I don't think it's really achievable unless you do have that element of risk to really feel that like that deep connection to the movement. I just got, like, so lost in the fantasizing about that, that experience. I forgot where my train of thought was,

00:40:08:14 - 00:40:53:08
David
It, you know, that movement is, is important because, you know, when you're 15ft out and you come to a hard section, you're going, I've got to get this perfect. I've got to get it perfect. And just this mental focus, I got to think about the moves and nothing else. And, and you get through it and then you get to easier stuff again, and and you relax a little bit, but there's, there's a total focus you have to have moving through a section when you're a ways out from the pro and,

00:40:53:11 - 00:41:32:24
David
And yeah, I think, you know, that's a lot of that's missing in sport climbing. I have noticed these days that, some of the bolters are starting to space the bolts out a lot more, which I think is a good thing because I know there's probably over, I don't know, 10 million bolts in the world now. And, and being able to minimize those is, is a good thing because, you know, I started in the days of nailing up routes and, and pin scars became the big issue.

00:41:32:24 - 00:42:00:25
David
And hence the, the movement to, clean climbing because, you know, it was just a scar on the rock, and, and everybody got used to that. And it was, you know, leave no trace climbing. And, you know, you'd occasionally have to put in bolts for anchors may be in a blank face where you could drill from a stance, but it, you know, the the number of bolts in the world has grown exponentially and I see no end to it.

00:42:00:25 - 00:42:00:29
David
And

00:42:01:16 - 00:42:34:04
Kyle
Yeah. So let's let's talk about that progression. So actually, my buddy and I just talked about this and it seems that it's almost like there's this momentum towards safer climbing that it's almost hard to stop. Like how do you like. Like the worst case scenario here is like like you just talked about revolting psychological test piece. Like the backer you're in, like someone going up there and bolting that kind of climb.

00:42:34:07 - 00:43:00:17
Kyle
Because it's like, well, it's dangerous. Why would we want this? You know, it's like it almost comes down to a community consensus. And unless you have these people guarding these routes in a way and be like, no, this is the ethics, you know, respect the ethics. Like, unless you have someone to advocate, like doing that, there's a chance people are going to come through and change it as time grows like, part of your frustration, it seems, with like, bolting is that there?

00:43:00:18 - 00:43:24:08
Kyle
There's that removal of that psychological aspect, like changing the way routes were established in the first place or, you know, putting up a support line right next to a psychological test piece where it takes away from the experience, like, how can we as a community, I don't know, protect those areas or like, how do we fully communicate that to the generations as we progress?

00:43:24:08 - 00:43:42:05
Kyle
Because it almost seems like, you know, as technological as technology, as technology advances and as it reaches more and more people, there's going to be a bias towards safer climbing as time progresses, rather than it being the other way around.

00:43:43:00 - 00:43:49:27
David
Yeah. I mean, I think the push to safer climbing, a lot of it comes from the manufacturers.

00:43:49:29 - 00:43:51:00
David
And trusting.

00:43:51:07 - 00:44:23:16
David
It. You know, it sells more, you know, you sell more bolts. Do you sell more hangers and and anchors and, and, you know, everybody's got to have the newest harness and the newest, lightest quick draws and the newest ropes and and so, yeah, I think. Yeah. And the whole push to helmets, I never wore a helmet climbing except on ice climbs and.

00:44:23:18 - 00:44:24:20
David
Yeah, I'll cap

00:44:24:29 - 00:44:29:06
Kyle
You know. Yeah. I notice you didn't wear a helmet yesterday. What's justify that for me?

00:44:31:26 - 00:45:05:05
David
My vision is better. You know, my peripheral vision, I don't I don't like things on my head, really. You know, and other than that, yeah, I did that. Tied to my gray hair and balding head, but, but, Yeah, I, you know, part of it was the Hulk back when we were both riding bikes and and back in that day, the tour de France.

00:45:05:05 - 00:45:45:04
David
Nobody wore helmets. And then the manufacturers decided, gee, we can sell a lot of helmets. If we could convince everybody that, you know, this is going to make you safer. I think, you know, there are studies out there that when you wear a helmet, you take more risks and because you think you're safer, you know, so I, I know how to protect my head if I fall and and if I took judo first 17 years, 13 years.

00:45:45:06 - 00:46:01:26
David
And, I know how to fall. I know how to keep my chin tucked. And I've never had a head injury until probably five years ago, when my partner fell on me. And I can split my head up. And it didn't.

00:46:01:26 - 00:46:02:21
David
Make you rethink it.

00:46:02:21 - 00:46:29:06
David
At all? It did, it did. I bought a helmet after that. I've worn it, I've worn it a couple times, but it's just even, you know, and. Even the lightest helmets out there, they're still. Jim, you know, chin strap is irritating the things over your ear, and it's distracting from focusing on the moves, you know,

00:46:29:09 - 00:46:48:21
Kyle
I can see that if you're not used to it. Yeah. I mean I think for me it's like I there's, it's, I definitely think it's a big topic because like you see all these pictures of pro climbers and they're not wearing helmets. But then like there's anecdotal stories of them like climbing the route for the helmet and then going back down to the crux pitch, doing it for a photo.

00:46:48:21 - 00:46:52:17
Kyle
And then I could take the helmet off, and then they climb it for the photo without a helmet on.

00:46:52:19 - 00:46:53:08
David
Really?

00:46:53:14 - 00:46:53:28
David
Wow.

00:46:53:28 - 00:47:06:21
Kyle
a pretty standard thing that we do. In the, in the culture these days. Because it looks better, it just unfortunately it does. You look harder. You look more in control. It's more static, like for a picture.

00:47:06:21 - 00:47:10:11
Kyle
As a photographer, as a creator, it looks better.

00:47:10:11 - 00:47:10:17
David
But.

00:47:10:18 - 00:47:12:00
David
Yeah, I agree.

00:47:12:02 - 00:47:12:10
David
But

00:47:12:10 - 00:47:38:19
Kyle
I would say in general, like in a sport that is inherently dangerous, like someone who wears a helmet versus someone who doesn't is by definition inherently safer. It just it's like it's hard to argue against that. I would feel, and I think the biggest thing is that the helmet, at least for me or for or like, rockfall, like, what if someone's above you and they drop a Caribbean, or they drop a cam, or they kick a rock down like we climb really busy routes.

00:47:38:19 - 00:47:59:29
Kyle
There's always people above or, you know, maybe you're climbing in across the area. Like, that would just suck to be, like, climbing. And then all of a sudden it's just like, you should get hit by a rock and that's it. It's over, you know, or like, you know, you, you climbing and you somehow make a mistake and your foot's behind your rope, and you flip upside down and you crack the

00:47:59:29 - 00:48:02:20
David
yeah, that that is a risk

00:48:02:20 - 00:48:21:09
Kyle
That's lights out. And so, yeah, I just I think that for me, as a modern day climber, I grew up with the pressure of helmets. And so it's like, for me, I wear a helmet when I try to climb multipage I climb, when I sport climb, then it starts to become a questionable. I'm like, it's like an established crag.

00:48:21:09 - 00:48:38:15
Kyle
There's no overhead hazard. There's no one going to be there. I'll just make sure I don't backstep the rope, you know, and we'll we'll have a fine day. Like, I'm not worried about that, but yeah, it's, it's a, it's a topic of controversy. And I think the biggest thing like I said is with media, it's like it's very rare to find a professional climber climbing with a helmet on.

00:48:38:15 - 00:48:45:26
Kyle
Unlike a magazine or Instagram video, you know, it's there are some. But I would say majority of the people who are glorified

00:48:47:06 - 00:49:19:06
David
Yeah, I was certainly soloing. Yeah. Right. At that point. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, it's it's a preference. But I just gotten used to being able to see, But you're right. I mean, rockfall is, is a big danger. You know, just a golf ball sized rock falling a couple hundred feet can do a lot of damage.

00:49:19:06 - 00:49:51:12
David
But then again, if it's a 50 pounder, helmet's not going to. You're not going to do any good. And, I, I remember one instance, I was on a climb. I was the third on the rope, and, the woman in front of me knocked this right on upright, soccer ball sized, rock down. I was in the middle of a dihedral coming up, and I see this thing coming, and it's just bouncing off this side of the dihedral on this side.

00:49:51:14 - 00:50:15:06
David
And I'm doing this. I just dive out of the way at the last second, and the thing goes right by me. And you know it. That's the only real instance of rockfall that I've come close to being hurt from. And I think, you know, with the helmet I have saved me. It might have kept me from serious head injury, you know, if it didn't kill me.

00:50:15:06 - 00:50:48:06
David
But, Right. Yeah. It's I, I did. I think when I was first climbing, we did, an off with chimney root and, it was back in the day, and I had no tube chocks. It was bigger than that and got a pathway and and, I was wearing a helmet that because I had. I don't know why I was wearing a helmet, but I had a helmet that day.

00:50:48:06 - 00:50:53:27
David
I took it off, and I crammed it on the crack and clipped into it and kept quiet.

00:50:53:27 - 00:50:54:11
Kyle
You use.

00:50:54:11 - 00:50:54:23
Kyle
It as

00:50:54:23 - 00:51:12:00
David
I used it as pro and it was, you know, it never flimsy fiberglass thing. It crushed. Ready? So a ship is basically an unprotected, for but it it gave me psychological security.

00:51:12:00 - 00:51:42:18
Kyle
What? So, you know, helmets, cams, degree grease, different belaying techniques, different rappelling techniques. The climb of the sport of climbing evolves over time. How have you both accepted and resisted these kind of, like, gear advancements, technological advancements, system advancements, battling that that process of, like, this works for me. And this is how I've done it versus like, this could be better.

00:51:42:18 - 00:51:46:14
Kyle
Like, where has that tension and where has that process slide for you?

00:51:46:24 - 00:52:40:13
David
I, I've always been conservative about the new technologies, you know, but let other people beta test it. Because, you know, the, the manufacturers which have come out with, you know, stellar new technologies, they, they always want to sell new gear. So, you know, this whole business of the ropes getting smaller and smaller and thinner and thinner is, you know, I wonder how much of that is marketing and how much, you know, there's no doubt climbing on an eight eight is going to help you send that 513, you know, but, but out in the, you know, trad climbing multi pitch stuff, I've had friends that have cut their ropes and you know,

00:52:40:13 - 00:53:10:25
David
it didn't break completely, but it definitely freaked them out. And, and the smaller the rope the more strength is in the sheets and the less strength is in the core. And so you cut that sheath, you could be in serious trouble. You know, like I say, sport climbs. Yeah. No problem. But, yeah, I, I have to evaluate new technologies and decide where they, when they come into it.

00:53:12:08 - 00:53:23:28
Kyle
How have you, how have you thought about the introduction to assisted breaking devices, Gregorys tools, all these different, belay devices that have assisted breaking?

00:53:23:28 - 00:53:49:28
David
they've required that in our gym in Albuquerque and, I, I really hate them because because I short rope my partner all the time. You either, you know, you either give them a big candy cane and let them take a big one or or you short rope, I mean, and and I don't want to get into the habit of of giving a lot of slack out.

00:53:50:01 - 00:54:25:29
David
You know, so they can make a quick clip because you get into trad climbing and you do that and your partner hits the ledge, you know? And so, habits are a big thing with me, you know, you got to develop the safe habits and, get them ingrained. And so, yeah, I, I prefer the ATC. You can wrap with a two, you can double rope, you know, right away and, I have started using a Greek tree in the gym.

00:54:25:29 - 00:54:55:16
David
Just the status. Well, it's not, you know, there's there's auto walking non-Greek stuff, but, and I started with those, but, For, you know, like I said, I've been doing more and more sport climbing, trying to transition to it, and and my partners hang hanging the rope a lot. So, Gregory's really nice, so. And, you don't have to worry about wrapping with it and that sort of thing.

00:54:55:16 - 00:54:56:29
David
So.

00:54:56:29 - 00:55:21:19
Kyle
Yeah, I, I mean, I see, I see the argument where it's like, look, I've been using this device for 20 years, x amount of years and I'm a, I'm a master of this device. I know how to use it. I know how to give you the proper amount of slack. I know how to hold the, you know, hold the rope down and make sure I catch your fall like I've been doing this for so long that it's just second nature to me.

00:55:21:19 - 00:55:51:24
Kyle
And now you're, you know, bringing in this new thing. I might have to learn a new technique, and it's going to be clunky and it's going to be unfamiliar to me. And so it's like, you know, this is like, why, why even reintroduce it in the first place? And I think for me, like it, one of the things like when I, when I come in with a new partner, unless I'm in a situation where I'm with someone like yourself who has been, like, so ingrained where I, you know, feel trusting to to use an ATC is just like.

00:55:51:27 - 00:56:11:27
Kyle
Without that trust, there is this looming question in the back of your mind. It's just like, you know, you never know. You never know. You never know. And it's like all it would take is the person to be hands free when you fell at the wrong time for that whole system to start slipping and sliding, and then it's like, really hard to recapture that.

00:56:11:27 - 00:56:42:04
Kyle
Or let's say I kick a rock down and knocked my player unconscious. Now I'm free soloing. You know, there's all these weird, weird fringe circumstances that would basically render an ATC useless or like an assisted breaking device. Like if those things happened, if my player wasn't paying attention, if for some reason my player decided to start smoking weed while I was leading, you know, if I kick a rock down and make my player unconscious, like, at least I'm still on belay, and then if I fell, like, I'm not going to fall to my death.

00:56:42:06 - 00:57:00:13
Kyle
And so that's where I think the assistive braking devices come in as, as useful to a larger group of population that might not be as skilled with certain devices is it takes time to learn, the consequences and the skills and the techniques, like back then it was a requirement for you. And so it was just like, this is how we do it now.

00:57:00:13 - 00:57:13:06
Kyle
It's like it's like motorized. It's so controlled. But I think for again with like this whole progression of climbing and people coming into the sport, it leaves less room for error, less room for chance.

00:57:14:04 - 00:57:40:21
David
Yeah. And a lot of it is what you learn on it. You know, if you learn on an auto braking device or a Gregory, after 2 or 3 years, you're you're in the habit. You're pretty comfortable with it. You could pay out slack fairly quickly. So yeah, I don't I don't have issues with them. It's just personal preferences.

00:57:40:27 - 00:57:56:01
David
I, I think that ATC is just about as fast as you can get and that, you know, I was so old school that I just got introduced to guide mode ten years ago or so. Just off the harness.

00:57:56:04 - 00:57:57:23
Kyle
Oh, like redirected through the anchor?

00:57:58:22 - 00:58:01:12
David
If that. Yeah, a lot of times, just

00:58:01:12 - 00:58:02:18
David
not even redirect.

00:58:02:18 - 00:58:03:02
David
Yeah,

00:58:03:02 - 00:58:05:19
Kyle
You're just clipped in direct. See your

00:58:05:19 - 00:58:06:03
David
Yeah. To

00:58:06:03 - 00:58:08:12
Kyle
your hard point and you just, like, belay down

00:58:08:16 - 00:58:09:01
David
Yeah.

00:58:09:01 - 00:58:09:27
Kyle
the head lock from the

00:58:10:03 - 00:58:23:21
David
Yeah, I had redirect, you know a fair amount, but a lot of times you're sitting on a ledge and redirecting and it's at least you can kind of hang off the ledge and, and it's the ropes not scraping on the, the left.

00:58:23:24 - 00:58:24:00
David
But

00:58:24:00 - 00:58:24:11
Kyle
that's.

00:58:24:11 - 00:58:24:29
Kyle
Wild.

00:58:25:08 - 00:58:25:25
David
right?

00:58:25:25 - 00:58:32:04
David
Yeah. It's, Yeah. Guide mode is is nice and tell you need to pay out slack.

00:58:32:04 - 00:58:32:21
David
So

00:58:32:21 - 00:58:50:24
Kyle
I mean the the ATC, I have the pivot the DM and pivot the the clip, the clip that you clipped to the top of the anchor is hinged. And so you can just like with, even if it's fully loaded, there's movement in the back. And so you can just take your hand and open it and it slips and you can give slack out.

00:58:50:26 - 00:59:06:10
Kyle
Whereas the old ATC, you'd have to like clip a carabiner to the front loop hole and then, like, mechanically crank it open and then would, like, slip really aggressively. So yeah, it's cool there, there are certain axes that have like that feature built in. But as you saw for me and micro tracks all

00:59:06:10 - 00:59:06:15
David
day.

00:59:06:20 - 00:59:07:26
David
Yeah. I

00:59:07:26 - 00:59:08:05
Kyle
that's my

00:59:08:05 - 00:59:09:10
David
that worked really well. Yeah.

00:59:09:17 - 00:59:09:20
David
It's

00:59:09:20 - 00:59:39:28
Kyle
so nice. And it's also like, it's since it has a pulley, it's like, it's like two fingers. It's just like just pulling. It's like shit is like eating food. Drink it a snack, you know? It's like it's all auto locking and it's, it's it's really, really choice. There are some like, like, I said before, when I was telling you I was going to play you, it's like, okay, no slack, you know, because if there's a big loop of slack and you take a whip on a micro tracks, like you could do sheath the rope, like there are some risks involved and just a matter of being aware of those and and mitigating

00:59:39:28 - 00:59:43:13
Kyle
them and making sure it's just tight, which you should be doing anyway as a player.

00:59:43:23 - 00:59:48:25
David
Yeah, well, after 50 years, I could still learn things about climate.

00:59:50:17 - 01:00:26:04
Kyle
On that note, so like, you know, we talked about, present day reflecting on the past, I think you and I joked about this a little bit yesterday, but present day joking about the future and, you know, like, right now we're talking about, like, otcs or hit delays or, you know, hexes like the, the typical comment I get on my Instagram is like, I climb that route with hexes back in the day and like, you know, I can't do anything but imagine that that is just like a symptom of life and that I'm going to end up being that person in the future.

01:00:26:04 - 01:00:46:17
Kyle
Commenting on some 20 year old climber when I'm, you know, 69 and being like, I used to climb back in the day when there were cams, like, now you're using this atomizer or whatever where you just like mold. Yeah, there's no there's no need for any pro anymore at all. And climbing has just become completely sanitized and there's no risk involved anymore.

01:00:46:19 - 01:00:50:22
Kyle
Do you see that as like an inevitable progression of the sport and kind of like where we're going?

01:00:50:22 - 01:00:51:20
Kyle
Unfortunately,

01:00:51:20 - 01:01:10:03
David
yeah. I, I can see in my lifetime still, some kind of, like, spider man glue, you know, and spider webs that you just spray on the rock and clip to them, and, and, your partner comes up and,

01:01:10:08 - 01:01:11:10
Kyle
And does it somehow.

01:01:11:10 - 01:01:20:03
David
and does it somehow, and it just comes off and leaves no trace. Can you imagine what kind of possibilities that kind of technology would open up

01:01:20:25 - 01:01:22:17
David
ground up climbing, you know?

01:01:22:17 - 01:01:41:09
David
you could just head up and use as much pro as you want and not disturb someone else who wants to use less. So, yeah, it'd be a great technology and I'd be all for it. I'll be in my wheelchair, you know? God. Yeah, I wish I could have use that back in the day.

01:01:41:24 - 01:01:43:27
Kyle
Yeah.

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01:02:41:08 - 01:03:04:14
Kyle
Back to this. Kind of like, topic of the psychological aspect to climbing. We had we had touched on free soloing a little bit. How do you feel about the commercialization and the monetization that has come from publicizing free soloing? So, like Alex Honnold, just free solo the typing, typing. I don't know how to call it typing one on one.

01:03:04:17 - 01:03:25:00
Kyle
The tallest building in Taiwan, I believe. There's a lot of turmoil in the climbing community right now about what that actually means and the significance of it. And, personally, I feel like, you know, I respect him for making money. Like, if I had that opportunity be really hard for me not to to say yes to that.

01:03:25:02 - 01:03:46:08
Kyle
But at the same time, I feel like it does a disservice to the climbing community as a whole, because it's like glorifying this part of climbing that, like, doesn't resonate with a lot of us. And it gives the general population this sense of what climbing is. That's not really true. And also like this climb was extremely rehearsed.

01:03:46:08 - 01:03:50:25
Kyle
And, you know, it's like the Elaine Robert, you've heard of him, right? Elaine. Robert in

01:03:50:25 - 01:03:51:04
David
Niro.

01:03:51:08 - 01:03:51:24
David
Oh, yeah.

01:03:51:24 - 01:04:01:03
Kyle
Yeah. He's done. Cray. Crazier first ascent on site, free solos of way harder buildings and has gotten, you know, next to zero in

01:04:01:03 - 01:04:01:14
David
comparison.

01:04:01:20 - 01:04:03:20
David
Been arrested less is.

01:04:03:20 - 01:04:06:08
Kyle
And that's the thing to like. Alexander has been glorified for these buildings.

01:04:06:08 - 01:04:47:18
Kyle
And like anybody else that does it in the public, gets arrested and charged to the like. So yeah. So talk to me about this part of the climbing community, the sport, because I feel like it's ultimately ingrained into the sport. It's something that's unavoidable. It's not Alex Honnold fault to me. It's a byproduct of how general population interacts with climbing, like publicizing free soloing will always capture the attention of the general population, and that is going to always be able to be monetized, whether it's John Baker, Alex Honnold, whoever's next, whoever is going to fill the seat, there will be someone to fill that chair.

01:04:47:20 - 01:04:58:22
Kyle
Have you thought about that? Like, what was John Bakker's influence on the online community back then, and how has that all kind of like culminated into this, this whole publicizing of free soloing?

01:04:59:22 - 01:05:20:06
David
Well, you know, that's one thing I don't think I can blame on the manufacturers because they're not selling any gear off. Alex Honnold Kreiman. But, yeah, I, I think the whole publicizing that just makes us look crazy. You know, you're a climber. Oh, you do that, Alex.

01:05:20:06 - 01:05:20:26
David
Honnold stuff

01:05:20:26 - 01:05:21:16
Kyle
free climb.

01:05:21:17 - 01:05:22:05
David
Yeah,

01:05:22:05 - 01:05:49:00
David
yeah. No, it's I and you know, a couple of my kids and and friends who don't climb texted me and said, are you going to watch that tonight? No, I said no, I don't watch live free soloing. Yeah. You know, if I did watch the movie, you know, and, you know, my hands were sweating the whole time, I'm like, this is just not enjoyable.

01:05:49:06 - 01:06:07:27
David
It's I don't I don't know what the point is, you know? And yes, it's the most amazing athletic feat of the century, you know, and I doubt it'll ever be repeated. And unless you have spider glue. I don't think so.

01:06:08:04 - 01:06:14:07
Kyle
Wow. That's a bold statement. So you think Alex Honnold is that much of an anomaly?

01:06:15:15 - 01:06:42:10
David
I, I it he's meticulous. You know, anybody can rehearse things over and over and over, but unless you have the mental focus to go with it, I just think it's, 1 in 100. I think somebody is going to try it. They're going to die, and that'll be the end of it.

01:06:42:15 - 01:06:57:19
Kyle
So once there's a public failure in the attempt to live in Alex Honnold shadow, it will kill the buzz that he's built around the the public situation, publicity, publicity that he's built around free soloing.

01:06:58:10 - 01:07:30:22
David
Yeah, I, I, I just hate to see anyone try to repeat that, you know, because. I don't know, I think he beat the odds and the next guy probably won't. So. But yeah, the whole problem size and free soloing just seems like it's. You know, the Coliseum all over again. People want to see death, you know? And

01:07:30:22 - 01:07:53:29
Kyle
that kind of content is not for climbers. It's not made for climbers. It's made for people who don't know what climbing is, because the only way they're able to really connect with what they're watching is the fact that they can visualize the person falling to their death. And ultimately that's like, what's keeping their attention is like, maybe it'll happen.

01:07:54:01 - 01:07:54:19
Kyle
And that's kind of

01:07:54:19 - 01:08:24:00
David
yeah. But I remember also, I don't know, it's probably in the mid 80s. ABC World of Sports filmed. I don't remember who did it. Climbing in Zion, there was a live climb and, and it was over, I don't know, they, you know, they cut in and out of it, but, Gosh, I can't remember who it was.

01:08:24:00 - 01:08:26:10
David
He took a 40ft or onto a ledge

01:08:27:03 - 01:08:50:03
David
and then backed off. Well, probably fell 20ft onto the ledge and flew off of it and went another 20. But, you know, that's what the networks love, the spectacles like that. And, and, you know, they're making lots of money off of it. And whoever they're film, that's going to make some maybe.

01:08:50:03 - 01:08:57:25
David
But, yeah, just sensationalize and climb and like that I think detracts from the sport

01:08:58:14 - 01:09:21:06
Kyle
Yeah. I agree with that. I, I on my, my channel, I have this one video of me like climbing the rostrum and I, my foot slips right after I place a cam. And, I have a hand jam and so, like, I slip, but I catch myself and but it's like I'm trying hard. It's overhanging. It's 11 b like I'm really trying not to come off the wall because it means I have to go back up, get through the cracks.

01:09:21:08 - 01:09:41:25
Kyle
And so I scream. I'm just like, fuck, you know, like. And then I get back up, get the hand jam, clip the rope, and then the video ends. But so it's got like 15 million views at this point. And I would say 90% of the people who have seen the video are non climbers, and they are all commenting like the as if I was free soloing.

01:09:41:25 - 01:10:08:21
Kyle
They don't get it, they don't understand that there's a rope system in place. I have a safety system. Even in the video I'm clipping the cam. You know it's like they they still associate climbing with what Alex Honnold has sensationalized the sport for. And so when you get it then coming across a video of some normal climber just climbing a route, trying hard, it's colored with this whole ultimately like from these people hate and judgment and negativity.

01:10:08:21 - 01:10:35:07
Kyle
Like this person has a husband, you know. Oh just remember guys, this person has, a husband and or a wife and kids, and he's out there risking his life or, you know, like, you know, I experience just as much risk eating a bag of Doritos on my my couch, you know, like these, these comments of people just like, so, so negatively averse to me, allegedly, like, risking my life for nothing.

01:10:35:09 - 01:11:04:22
Kyle
Right? And it's like, I feel like that's that's the negative side of Alex Honnold sensationalizing or free soloing and how it manifests into how climbing culture is viewed. It's like we're not we're not all lunatics. We're not all like out there to go kill ourselves and make our families sad that we died. And like, we're not all out there, just like for Self-pleasure like 99% of us are calculated and risk management and like, we're here to come back home.

01:11:04:24 - 01:11:24:03
Kyle
But that gets lost. And it's also, unfortunately, not that interesting to the general public. And so there's no money there. And so it's like that's why I said it's almost as an avoidable part of climbing where you're you have this aspect of general population that's monetizable, and it will always be monetized because it's there.

01:11:24:20 - 01:11:49:16
David
Yeah. And even, you know, Chris Sharma did that TV series and deepwater soloing. And I mean he had actual normal people. But again, deep water soloing, they're rope ropes. They're climbing rope. So it's still contributes to that public perception that, you know, we're we're crazy. Haha. I'm not crazy fast.

01:11:49:19 - 01:12:05:25
Kyle
yeah yeah. It's all deniable. I'm not crazy. They're crazy. Even my brother, he, like, reached out to me. He was like, you sent me. It's because Alex Honnold free solo was all over social media right now. It's like I can't swipe away from it at this point. It's like one channel. It's the next channel.

01:12:05:25 - 01:12:14:18
Kyle
It's other channels repeating the channels. It's it's, social media influencers talking about, you know, it's everywhere. It's just saturated.

01:12:14:18 - 01:12:18:19
Kyle
yeah, my brother reached out and he was like, this guy is crazy. And like, I was kind of like trying to ping him a little bit.

01:12:18:19 - 01:12:36:25
Kyle
I was like, well, it's not that crazy, you know, like, you know, talk to him about the whole thing. And ultimately he he's not a climber either. And he boil it down to, is this, like, I just can't understand why someone would risk their life for doing something like that is like risk is built into our DNA. As humans.

01:12:36:25 - 01:13:01:10
Kyle
We dig a coal mine. We, build a railroad track, we risk death to for the benefit of community, for the benefit of society. We, you know, we take on risk as men to achieve something, but in climbing, it lacks that purpose, right? It lacks that reasonable understanding of why you're taking the risk in the first place. Because if you fall and die, you die.

01:13:01:15 - 01:13:20:03
Kyle
Your family gets affected, everybody around you gets affected, and you left nothing behind for anybody except for your own ego on what you achieved. Right? And so I think that is the biggest struggle for people to understand. It's like they're captivated by the risk, but they're also appalled by it because it's meaningless.

01:13:21:06 - 01:13:27:19
David
Yeah, it yeah, soloing needs to be done totally in private. I, I,

01:13:28:00 - 01:13:56:23
David
I mean, I, I remember the story of Phil Croft, you know, soloing Astro man and nobody knew he was going to do it. Nobody knew he had done it, you know, until afterwards. And, he didn't make a big deal out of it. And, and, he's done so much of that, you know, he he's in the same class with Honnold, but he does it privately, which I have a lot of respect for, for sure.

01:13:57:13 - 01:14:02:15
Kyle
Yeah, it's a tough one. Like I said, I think it's, unfortunately unavoidable.

01:14:02:15 - 01:14:12:17
Kyle
Okay, so you have been climbing for a really long time. How much of that has been with this passion of of establishing first a sense?

01:14:14:06 - 01:14:41:19
David
I, I really don't have a passion of establishing first ascent. I, I like going to new areas. I'll spot something. Wow, that looks really cool, you know, and and go up and try it. And, I've done first ascents that have never been reported, and I don't care to report them, you know, I can't remember enough about them.

01:14:41:22 - 01:15:31:19
David
And now ever report them because, you know, when you, when you climb, leave no trace. How are you going to know for it went 20 years from now. So, so, you know, it's so much was just the joy of getting out there climbing. And the majority of the stuff I've done was probably second, a sense of, things that, you know, others have done and, but yeah, we, you know, I mentioned that beginning this Wind River's trip that we took and on the hike in from Dickinson Park to circuit the towers, we passed this hanging valley on the left and had some amazing walls in it.

01:15:31:20 - 01:15:59:28
David
And, so several years later, I convinced my buddies to go in there. I said, why don't you go on, let's go in and explore this area? Because there was nothing on it, you know, nothing reported there. And, so we we managed to get across the river and hike up to this hanging valley and get over the top, and it's just a boulder field, maybe a half a mile long and a quarter of a mile wide.

01:16:00:01 - 01:16:24:19
David
Just nothing but boulders. We found one patch of grass that was big enough for a couple of tents, and that was it. And there was, you know, ice melt and pools of water and in amongst the boulder fields. So we had water and, and, we just spent a week in there, doing roots. And it was, it was awesome.

01:16:24:19 - 01:16:56:18
David
It was a great trip. And, and, we named it Circa the Moon, which has been posted on Mountain Project now, but there was one classic route we did. It was a grade five and, and, and a few years later I had climbed with my kid. Is the guy that discovered wake or Tanks, living in El Paso.

01:16:56:20 - 01:17:21:13
David
He came back with a couple of friends a few years later, and freed it. And, you know, it's probably 11 solid 11, if not harder. He took 40 footer on it on the late. And, and I talked to a guy that had tried it, last year, I guess, and, took a 40 footer on that section.

01:17:21:13 - 01:17:45:09
David
So he broke a pen. One of the original pens just snapped it off. And, so he had called me and said, do you mind if I put a bolt in there? I said, yeah, if the pen broke, I had put a bolt on. So, but that's yeah, that just doing that kind of thing, especially in and free in new area, you know, there's so much to do.

01:17:45:11 - 01:17:46:28
David
Seems like it seems like

01:17:46:28 - 01:18:07:19
Kyle
you weren't necessarily out there to, like, do first ascents for the purpose of, like, having the accolades of like I did a first ascent. Here's the first ascent to the world. Like everybody can climb it now. It was more at least. I might be projecting here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you were almost like, that's just what climbing was like.

01:18:07:19 - 01:18:29:07
Kyle
You go out there, you pick routes and you climb them because there probably weren't as as weren't as many established routes in the first place. And so it was almost easier to just point at something that inspired you in climate versus it was trying to find the blank canvas among all of the established routes that already exist.

01:18:29:24 - 01:19:04:28
David
Yeah, I had a blank canvas that that's an interesting term because, I mean, when I go into a new area, I don't see it as a blank canvas. I just see it as possibilities, you know. Oh, look at that crack there. You know that that thing that could certainly go, you know, and just visualizing stuff from the ground of what might be, and then turning that into reality.

01:19:05:05 - 01:19:23:05
David
There. That's where the joy is, you know, it's it's not about, well, I'm going to put in 20 new rap routes in this new area and, you know, and then make a guidebook, you know, it's just it's just the adventure.

01:19:23:08 - 01:19:23:16
David
So

01:19:23:16 - 01:19:43:18
Kyle
you could have the same experience going up to the base of a route and climbing it ground up thinking it's a first ascent, and then coming back and realizing that it actually wasn't. It wouldn't matter because you still had that raw experience of experience, something that was new and there was no information at least privy to you.

01:19:43:21 - 01:19:57:17
Kyle
And let's say the person didn't leave any hardware behind. And so there's no traces of another ascent, like it's about the experience that a first ascent gives you, rather than it's the accolade of being a first ascent in the first place.

01:19:57:17 - 01:20:01:07
David
right? Yeah, yeah. And in fact,

01:20:01:07 - 01:20:22:28
David
you know, last year I went up to do friend of mine said, you know, I, I don't think there's any roots on the North Face. The tombstone in the sand. Yeah. So let's go up there and check it out. And we wrap down it and looked it over and I said, yeah, that that should probably go.

01:20:22:28 - 01:20:52:12
David
And, so I ended up top rope and up the thing and, and we didn't place any bolts that day. So I got to talking to people and Peter Pan, Donie, who was climbing before I was in Albuquerque. He said, oh, yeah. Doug and I put up a root there, and I said, yeah, I found a pin halfway up, so I knew somebody had been on it.

01:20:52:14 - 01:20:59:04
David
So yeah, that that kind of thing. It's it,

01:20:59:06 - 01:21:26:09
David
It didn't take any of the joy away. No one. Somebody else had been up there, but it made me less inclined to put up a new route there. You know, he had come in from a different way to to get to that point where I found the pin, but, Yeah, I didn't want to intrude on his route, so it's, it's good to know if somebody's been on it before you go.

01:21:26:09 - 01:21:28:12
David
Especially adding stuff.

01:21:29:16 - 01:21:54:17
Kyle
You know, if you're going to add stuff, at least do some research to find out if someone's been there, whether there's some history, whether someone's done versus ends, or whether someone has spent time at the crag. I think it's definitely, I think that's one of the lessons, at least to carry on if someone's interested in route developing is like, take some time to do the research and figure out, like whether someone locally is been working there or establishing their, like, ask around in the community.

01:21:54:17 - 01:21:55:28
Kyle
You'll find out pretty quick.

01:21:56:10 - 01:22:22:17
David
Yeah. And you can't rely on Mountain Project. I mean, the original the original guide to the San Dimas had that route listed, and, it's out of print now. And, you know, only few people have that stuff. So, you know, it's it's hard, which just says, you know, if you're going to do the route, try to do it as clean as possible and leave no trace, and then somebody else can have that same experience.

01:22:22:22 - 01:22:23:12
David
Yeah.

01:22:23:12 - 01:22:54:09
Kyle
So you're you're 69 now. For someone who is looking to be in your shoes like I, I watched you climb yesterday and it was honestly just extremely impressive. To see the ability to just try hard, push yourself like I aspire to, to be able to do what you did yesterday. At your age, like, how does it.

01:22:54:11 - 01:23:11:08
Kyle
How have you gotten here? How have you achieved the ability to continue to to try hard at your age? Is it luck? Is there any sort of preparation? Is there certain things you've done that has increased your longevity in the sport? What does that look like to you?

01:23:14:09 - 01:23:18:09
David
Like I said yesterday, I never turned down a compliment. So I thank, you know.

01:23:18:09 - 01:23:41:21
Kyle
I mean, honestly, like, for sure. Impressive. Like, I know, there was some struggle there with the feet and stuff, but it doesn't matter. Like, even in the light of that challenge, there was still that tenacity, the the focus, the like, you know, just the drive to continue because you could easily just be like, you know, anybody, any age could be in that position and just be like, fuck this.

01:23:41:21 - 01:23:44:24
Kyle
You know, like, yeah, I'm walking over it. I want to get out of here.

01:23:44:24 - 01:23:51:17
David
thank you, thank you. I forgot the question. There.

01:23:51:23 - 01:23:53:16
Kyle
you. So you're climbing at this level,

01:23:53:19 - 01:23:54:13
David
Oh, yeah.

01:23:54:13 - 01:23:54:20
David
Okay.

01:23:54:20 - 01:23:56:10
Kyle
this age, like, how have we gotten here?

01:23:56:16 - 01:24:33:18
David
Yeah. Number one, I think. Well, I actually attribute a lot to taking judo as a young, a young man and learning to fall and learning to protect yourself and how to roll on it. I mean, it's that experience has helped me cycling. It's helped me rock climbing. You know, and, but, you know, just a lot of it is just being blessed with good health my whole life.

01:24:33:20 - 01:25:03:02
David
Being able to suffer a little, or a lot. And, and just staying active and and like I said, I was probably the worst shape of my life when I was hang gliding, because you're just laying in a harness for hours on it, and, there's not a whole lot of exercise other than carrying an 85 pound glider up on a hill a couple of times.

01:25:03:02 - 01:25:34:04
David
But, yeah, after that it was cycling. Kept me in shape for climbing. CrossFit kept me in shape. And so, I, I push myself. I don't think I'm competitive. I'm really not competitive with others. It's it's I just like to go out and push myself as hard as I can and enjoy myself as as a result of knowing that I've pushed myself.

01:25:34:11 - 01:26:03:25
David
So, it keeps things new and going to new areas, climbing with new partners, mentoring young climbers with promise and that sort of thing. It's, it's been a joy. And, you know, God willing, I'll be able to climb another ten years like it was a Fritz Weisner was four one, five, ten overhangs and the gangster. And he was in his 80s, I think so, yeah.

01:26:04:00 - 01:26:11:01
David
So, hopefully that's hopefully that's in my future. Yeah. Jim Delaney yeah.

01:26:11:01 - 01:26:15:12
Kyle
it's inspirational.

01:26:15:15 - 01:26:23:19
Kyle
What is the like most proud climbing achievement you've done in the recent years. In the last like five years.

01:26:23:22 - 01:26:53:03
David
I think it was probably two years ago, maybe three years ago, went to a new area in the sandy, and I hadn't climbed before. There were several five elevens there. The 11th I think the hardest ones, 11 C or so. And I was able to to send two of the three. I took a 40 footer on one of them, but then went back and sent it.

01:26:53:05 - 01:27:23:23
David
So you know, that that really told me that, man, you're climbing just as hard as you ever did back home in your 20s. And it was really, really satisfying. I think I'm past that peak, though. Yeah. After yesterday, well past that peak. But. Well, it was, it was that and you know, back injury and having not climbed much in the last year.

01:27:23:26 - 01:27:28:11
David
Yeah. So I was really in top form a couple of years ago.

01:27:28:11 - 01:27:29:09
David
So

01:27:29:09 - 01:27:44:12
Kyle
That's cool. It's nice to feel the attachment to the past in that way. After having all all that time past still is just like, okay, we're still here in a way. Yeah. And I think that gives, yeah, hope to people who aspire to do the same thing.

01:27:44:14 - 01:27:44:25
Kyle
Yeah,

01:27:44:25 - 01:27:56:13
David
sending Rock warrior was probably right up there too. And that was a couple of years ago. But, yeah, that was that was memorable.

01:27:56:20 - 01:27:57:09
David
Nice.

01:27:57:09 - 01:28:11:10
Kyle
I mean, honestly, like, in terms of what I had planned for us, that was I've, we've covered most of it. Do you feel like we missed anything at all? Any stories or anything that you feel like, you'd like to share while you're here?

01:28:13:01 - 01:28:22:23
David
There there was the most memorable thing. Climbing was my near-death experience. I mean, I've had a few.

01:28:22:23 - 01:28:26:21
Kyle
Tell me about this, this memorable experience.

01:28:28:03 - 01:29:06:19
David
Okay. Well, it, it it was semi life changing, and so I did want to mention it, I had done a route in the San Dimas several times, and I went back with a friend, to do it again. I'm trying to remember when exactly it was. It was probably in the late 80s. And I did the it's a normally a four pitch route.

01:29:06:22 - 01:29:44:17
David
First pitches are, you know, straight forward, five, nine dihedral and, and then you, you get past the crux and the rest of the way to the top is, it's a hand crack up. Let us like and felt dihedral and, you know, then you do a little pace and then you get behind this humongous block and, chimney up or climb behind it, easy climbing and and then normally belay because a rope drag and then finish off the last 40ft to the top or so.

01:29:44:19 - 01:30:11:28
David
And on this occasion, since I had done it, several times, I, I didn't want to belay behind the block this time. So I decided, you know, it's easy enough. I'm just going to probably not protect it. And I'm going to go, get to the top of the block and flip the rope around to the front so it's running straight down to the belay.

01:30:12:00 - 01:30:39:09
David
And, and so I did that, and, and then I started climbing. It ends up on this knife edge ridge, and I do the last 40ft, and I'm pulling on stepping up the last couple of moves to the knife edge for edge, and I slip, and there's not a piece in between me and at least 100ft to the bladder.

01:30:39:13 - 01:31:16:29
David
And, I blacked out it. I well, I just, I knew I slipped and I blacked out, and when I came to, I was hanging upside down from my knee, wedged behind us for, like, I had slipped maybe three feet. I mean, no fall involved. And, and so I was like, wow, that's, fortunate. And so I followed, finished.

01:31:16:29 - 01:31:54:10
David
I got on top, brought my partner up, told him what had happened, but, you know, this is one of those acts of God, things that, you know, makes you think, you know, I've I've either got the world's best guardian angel watching over me, or I'm meant for something else in this life. And so that, you know, it didn't really change my climbing, but it gave me a new perspective on life itself.

01:31:54:11 - 01:32:01:25
David
And, you know, what am I meant for here? And I wish I had the answer, but,

01:32:01:25 - 01:32:02:19
Kyle
what was it?

01:32:02:19 - 01:32:07:08
David
I don't have the answer. I don't yeah, I wish I did.

01:32:10:03 - 01:32:13:13
David
30 years, maybe 35, 40 years ago.

01:32:13:15 - 01:32:42:16
Kyle
So it's interesting that you bring this up, actually. So when I talk to people who have close calls like this near-death experiences, I've had plenty of my own. More than I can count, more than I'd like to admit. I've found that there are two types of people. There are people that chalk it up to chaos and lock, and then there are people who extract meaning from it and what you just said, like it means I'm here for some other purpose.

01:32:42:18 - 01:33:08:19
Kyle
That is exactly how I feel. That is exactly what I've extrapolated from my close calls and I'm still in the stage of figuring out what it is that I'm here for. Right? It's like. But at the same time, it gives me this passion to continue to push forward and to try to expand this podcast and to to push myself as an individual and to continue to grow.

01:33:08:21 - 01:33:16:04
Kyle
It's been 30 years for you, and you still don't have an answer to that question. You don't feel like you've answered the reason why you're here.

01:33:16:04 - 01:33:26:03
David
I, I have suspicions, but, I don't I don't want to go into, at least not right now.

01:33:26:03 - 01:33:42:05
David
But, yeah, it's, you know, what makes it even more miraculous was that I repeated the root three or 3 or 4 years ago and couldn't find the flake.

01:33:42:05 - 01:33:42:23
Kyle
What?

01:33:42:23 - 01:33:45:04
David
That my leg caught behind.

01:33:45:04 - 01:33:46:04
Kyle
Whoa.

01:33:46:12 - 01:33:51:05
David
Yeah. You know, and it's been 30 years, and rockfalls happen and,

01:33:51:05 - 01:33:52:00
Kyle
still

01:33:52:00 - 01:33:53:07
David
freeze thaw,

01:33:53:07 - 01:33:55:03
Kyle
freeze thaw. Yeah, yeah,

01:33:55:03 - 01:34:00:19
David
but yeah, I looked and looked and Eric, where is that thing?

01:34:00:19 - 01:34:02:12
Kyle
Wow.

01:34:02:15 - 01:34:04:24
Kyle
And it's interesting that you lost consciousness.

01:34:05:05 - 01:34:06:24
David
Yeah, yeah it is.

01:34:06:24 - 01:34:12:19
Kyle
it's almost like it's almost like in a video game where you save and reload in a way.

01:34:12:19 - 01:34:15:22
David
Am I in a different universe now? Right. Yeah.

01:34:15:22 - 01:34:16:19
Kyle
Reload.

01:34:16:19 - 01:34:22:03
David
Yeah. Right. Yeah. But, no, I chalk it up as just an outright miracle.

01:34:22:06 - 01:34:22:29
Kyle
Wow.

01:34:23:03 - 01:35:04:05
David
And that the fact that I blacked out and means there was another incident, you know, near death, because I had a few. And there was another one where I slipped, and I was it was a descending a knife edge and drizzle, and I slipped on loss. And when sliding down the slab on my back and where I was totally conscious the whole time, I knew at the bottom of this slab there was a small ledge about the size of this table, and I see either going to go off that way or off the cliff this way, but if I jump that way, I I'd be okay.

01:35:04:12 - 01:35:23:07
David
And so I, I did that and you know, but it was all conscious, you know, I'm, I'm just got to think fast and react or whatever I can do to save myself. But this other incident or, you know, just blacking out or it was totally out of my control.

01:35:23:07 - 01:35:27:10
Kyle
How much do you remember of the fall? It seems like you blacked out pretty instantly.

01:35:27:24 - 01:35:33:05
David
Yeah. All I remember is my foot slipping and I fell. That's all I.

01:35:33:05 - 01:35:33:23
David
Remember. And

01:35:33:23 - 01:35:44:19
Kyle
then all of a sudden you're hanging upside down with your knee wedged in if, like, like three feet below where you were. Just were. That is wild. That's wild.

01:35:45:11 - 01:35:52:25
David
So. Yeah. That's.

01:35:52:28 - 01:35:55:06
David
That's that's unexplainable.

01:35:55:08 - 01:35:55:20
David
That's

01:35:55:20 - 01:36:25:15
Kyle
interesting. You said it didn't affect your climbing that much afterward. I guess one of the topics we haven't really like touched on is, like, risk management. Like, we've talked about psychological test pieces and we've talked about, the, the necessary aspect to climbing to, you know, at least for you and I to, to add depth and meaning to the experience, like how do you draw that line between, like, what's too risky and what's not.

01:36:25:17 - 01:36:29:21
Kyle
And has that risk assessment changed over the years for you?

01:36:33:11 - 01:36:59:22
David
It I, I don't think it's really changed over the years. It I have a very logical brain, you know, and, so I'm looking at, you know, what's the risk of a fall? Is it low? Is it high? What's the risk of hitting something if I fall or injury? Or how far am I going to fall? You know that.

01:36:59:25 - 01:37:07:04
David
But it also comes down to.

01:37:07:06 - 01:37:30:25
David
You know, do I think I look at the moves and I say, do I think I can do these? And it's either a yes or no, you know, and if it's a no, I'm going to down climb as best I can to the last piece. And then back off. Yeah. So. So that's kind of how I go about it.

01:37:30:25 - 01:37:42:26
Kyle
How do you. So what you just described is exactly how I feel as well. How do you as a climber.

01:37:42:28 - 01:38:11:07
Kyle
Get better at making that judgment call, knowing whether or not you can do it or not? Like reading the Rock and like knowing what is required of you and knowing whether your skills are matched to what is asked of you to a certain degree of probability. Like, to me, that's a skill. It's like a it's it's something that you people have or it's something people have or don't.

01:38:11:09 - 01:38:15:27
Kyle
Have you analyze that at all with yourself like, you know what? I'm trying to get out.

01:38:18:25 - 01:38:32:03
David
Yeah. And I mean it a lot of it is just the experience. How many of these situations have you been through before, or are the odds stacking up for, like, you know, against you at that point?

01:38:32:07 - 01:38:34:25
Kyle
Do you have enough evidence to back up your judgment?

01:38:34:25 - 01:39:00:21
David
Yeah. And it at my age, it's, you know, I do not want to over overemphasize I, you know, if any if I make an error it's going to be an overconfidence. And so I don't want to you know, I, I, I am not climbing like I was. So I don't want to be overconfident and and get into trouble.

01:39:01:05 - 01:39:08:14
Kyle
How has the degradation of performance affected your love for the sport?

01:39:12:03 - 01:39:38:21
David
Not really, not really. I remember a good friend of mine, he quit climbing at 60 because he said it just takes too much work to stay in shape, so I enjoy it. But the more I get out of shape, you know it. It's putting on a little weight and, you know, and that's, you know, if I was pushing 200 pounds, I would not enjoy it like I still do.

01:39:38:21 - 01:39:55:02
David
So I really work to keep my weight down so I can continue to enjoy it. But as long as, you know, as long as I'm enjoying it, I'm going to keep climbing. I just, I just gotta watch the risk going forward here.

01:39:55:02 - 01:40:35:00
Kyle
So your, your like I talked to Randy Leavitt recently. We had spoken about this a little bit. He since he can no longer progress in the sport he's lost interest and he is then such switched to surfing where he's a newbie and he can feel that rush of progression in something new. Why? What about climbing has captured your attention enough to not search novelty in other areas, where progression might be a bit easier to attain.

01:40:35:02 - 01:41:03:06
Kyle
Whereas in climbing, as you continue to to progress in this passion of climbing, ultimately, unfortunately, the the the progression is actually negative. It's digression, like you are going to see performance slip. You'll have to go back in the grades. You'll have to go back and risk tolerance. Like what about climbing still is capturing your attention even though these parts of the sport are starting to kind of like the ball is shrinking in a way.

01:41:04:01 - 01:41:38:00
David
Yeah, I, I think I think the difference, is competitiveness when you're competitive with other people, and you start falling back in an ability that can really affect your motivation. And, I, I've never really been had that competitive spirit, you know, that I, I mean, I admire it and people that have it, they, they just push themselves and push themselves and, and, do amazing things.

01:41:38:00 - 01:42:08:27
David
But, you know, it's been more about the like you pointed out the joy of movement and whether it's 510 or 5 9 or 5 seven, I mean, some of the most enjoyable climbs I've done or you know, 15 pitches at five, seven, you know, because you're just moving it. You feel fluid. You're you're in a tremendous place with awesome views and, and, you know, it just doesn't get any better than that.

01:42:08:27 - 01:42:24:15
David
And I can continue to as long as I can hike in just, you know, to wherever it is, I'm not going to be carrying 100 pound packs anymore. But it, yeah, just the movement is going to keep keep it fresh for me.

01:42:24:19 - 01:42:31:22
Kyle
Do you think that you'll lose the ability to approach faster than you'll lose the ability to climb vertical terrain?

01:42:32:12 - 01:42:58:01
David
Yeah, yeah, at least for the back problems I have now. So. But, yeah, it, the approaches are, you know, I'm getting slower. I don't like slow. And my partners are, you know on the hikes in and, and that's and but yeah, that's that's a problem. Yeah.

01:42:58:16 - 01:43:39:15
Kyle
Yeah. You had mentioned like, not feeling competition with others. What about them not trying to, like, pressure you to answer in a certain way. I'm just trying to expand on this topic a little bit. Like, what about like a competition with the previous version of yourself, whether that's with performance or anything? Like, is there any sort of tension with like, no longer being who you were in certain ways, or is there like a level of acceptance of just like, this is how it is, and I'm able to experience flow in the mountains, it might look different, but the experience I'm having with this current body and who I am now is, is just

01:43:39:15 - 01:43:40:24
Kyle
it's different but the same.

01:43:41:26 - 01:44:13:29
David
Yeah. I mean, it's it's a metric, you know, that's how I, how I was climbing in my 20s. I was climbing in my 50s, climbing in my 60s, you know, I, I keep I keep thinking I've plateaued and I'm headed down, you know, and, and then I'll, I'll, you know, be able to climb for several weekends in a row and pull off something, you know, pull off something hard.

01:44:13:29 - 01:44:18:18
David
No. Cool. Wow.

01:44:18:21 - 01:44:50:01
David
All right. And then I'll go back, you know, two months later and flail. I'm sorry. It's just, it's just a matter of of inconsistency at this point. I think, like, yesterday, I felt like I was I was really on that downhill slide, but, but, I know I'll, I'll be getting back up, at least. Maybe not where I was, but better than yesterday for sure.

01:44:50:01 - 01:45:11:29
Kyle
Yeah, I think that's key. Right. It's like, climbing is, is depending on what kind of climbing you're doing, it's ultimately so low impact that, you can do it for a really long time. Yeah. You just pick the right routes, manage the risk. Like, don't take huge falls. You know, there's plenty of places with, you know, moderate to easy approaches where you still get great climbs.

01:45:11:29 - 01:45:20:02
Kyle
It's just like changing that lens, changing that focus and still chasing that feeling of adventure and passion that climbing gives to us.

01:45:20:18 - 01:45:27:18
David
I might have to do more cracks. Who's not my favorite? But I still love them.

01:45:27:23 - 01:45:28:13
Kyle
Yeah.

01:45:28:15 - 01:45:41:03
Kyle
Well, awesome. Yeah. Again, I just, I'm super grateful that you you flew out here and, to, to also facilitate the experience we had yesterday and the conversation today. It's just been it's been rad.

01:45:41:03 - 01:45:42:06
David
And I appreciate you.

01:45:42:13 - 01:45:44:25
David
Great experience. Thank you. Yeah,

01:45:44:25 - 01:45:55:22
Kyle
If people are interested in, like, following your story in any way, is there a place they can go? Is there anything people can do to learn more about you?

01:45:56:14 - 01:46:12:14
David
Not. Not really. I'm. I'm anti-social media. I don't have a Facebook page or Instagram or anything. But, I, I am on mountain project and people can put me up there and send me a PM,

01:46:12:14 - 01:46:13:08
Kyle
cool.

01:46:13:08 - 01:46:19:28
Kyle
Yeah. I'll, I'll link your mountain project profile on there. You had said that you don't, log your roots

01:46:19:28 - 01:46:21:00
David
All right, I.

01:46:21:03 - 01:46:26:14
David
I didn't I didn't until Mountain Project and I've started logging on my, my own project.

01:46:26:17 - 01:46:35:25
Kyle
Would you say, like, if someone is listening to this and is kind of in the beginning stages of their climbing and maybe not tracking their roots, like, would you encourage them to do so?

01:46:36:09 - 01:46:58:14
David
I would, I would because, you know, as you start to lose your memory, you like to not lie to people about things. So it's it's always good to be able to go back and refresh your memory. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And oh, yeah, I did fall on that route. So I fell on it again. Yeah, yeah.

01:46:58:14 - 01:46:59:06
David
So