114 | Justin Sackett: Chasing Altitude - Close Calls & Training for Everest Without O2

Justin Sackett, an AMGA guide who googled "hardest hike" in college and ended up on a 20,000-foot peak in Ecuador with zero mountaineering experience. That failure lit a fire that led him from complete beginner to professional guide to running his own guide company at 28—all while training single-mindedly for Everest without supplemental oxygen. This episode explores his rapid progression to being an alpine guide, the mentor who gave him the technical foundation most climbers take years to develop, and the Liberty Ridge storm where 60mph winds and inadequate gear taught him lessons about weather forecasts and risk tolerance. We discuss the Rainier ice block incident that made several of his friends quit guiding, why he started his own company instead of working for established services, how he vets guides, and what training for Everest without oxygen actually looks like when you're also running a business. Justin opens up about the genetic lottery of altitude performance, why the West Ridge of Everest represents the ultimate objective in his mind, and how he's preparing mentally for both success and failure.

Topics include: becoming a mountain guide, AMGA certifications, Liberty Ridge conditions, guide company management, hiring guides, Everest without oxygen training, altitude acclimatization, post-objective depression, risk tolerance at 8,000 meters, and balancing business ownership with personal climbing goals.

Watch the full episode on Youtube

#amgaguides #highaltitudeclimbing #mountaineering #alpinism

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Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:05:10
Kyle
I feel like most people start like climbing through rock gyms or outdoor programs.

00:00:05:26 - 00:00:29:07
Kyle
That seems like that's at least how I started. Like I started a bouldering gym. Someone showed me how to rock climb in the in the gym. I started climbing and I was like, boom. Like my world expanded. But from what I found from this trip, like, through your experience and through Ryan's, was that there's this, like, other pathway to climbing and that's like the altitude slash mountaineering kind of pathway that, like, that's the hook, right?

00:00:29:10 - 00:00:37:18
Kyle
So, like, why was that the hook for you? Why was mountaineering and altitude. What caught your attention rather than like, technical rock climbing?

00:00:37:18 - 00:01:02:17
Justin
Yeah, good. Good question. I don't know, I mean, I really just got my butt kicked on a hike, like in college and then googled hardest hike in Ecuador on a family trip there and just got possessed with it. I just thought it was the coolest thing on the planet. Just like a big, big, snowy, glaciated peak. I didn't know that it like, wasn't, hike.

00:01:02:19 - 00:01:26:26
Justin
But yeah, I just loved that aspect of climbing, I guess, like Mount Mountaineering. Just like the challenge of it. The suffering involved waking up at night with, like, headlamp and crampons, and then, you know, just was inspired by beautiful mountains, which are often technical. And that was my road into, like, technical rock and ice climbing.

00:01:26:29 - 00:01:28:28
Justin
Yeah, definitely. From the mountaineering

00:01:29:10 - 00:01:31:09
Kyle
When you were born and raised in Georgia?

00:01:31:09 - 00:01:33:26
Justin
Yeah. Originally from Atlanta.

00:01:33:26 - 00:01:34:28
Kyle
So it's like.

00:01:34:28 - 00:01:43:12
Kyle
A pretty flat state. Yeah, totally. So how did, like, climbing or mountaineering even come on your radar? You said you typed in the hardest hike. Yeah. So where did that take you?

00:01:43:18 - 00:02:05:06
Justin
Yeah. Initially visiting my sister in, like, Los Angeles. I googled the hardest hike, and it was just a trail, you know, showed up with, like, jeans and hiking boots. And my brother and I just got smoked, and I remember we were like, 30 minutes or we thought 30 minutes from the top. And yeah, my brother was like, dude, I can't go any further.

00:02:05:06 - 00:02:06:08
Justin
I don't think I'm going to make it.

00:02:06:13 - 00:02:29:22
Justin
So I like left him with like a water and a Clif bar and I said, I'm going up. I'll like, see when I get back. And I just remember obviously, like was not a big deal. We were on a dirt trail, but at the time it felt like the most epic thing I'd ever done. You know, like made a push to the top and and came back and then after that, googled hardest hike again in Ecuador.

00:02:29:22 - 00:02:32:13
Justin
And like a 20,000ft peak came up.

00:02:32:13 - 00:02:33:10
Kyle
Wow.

00:02:33:12 - 00:02:34:28
Kyle
What about that country?

00:02:35:03 - 00:02:36:10
Justin


00:02:36:12 - 00:02:45:15
Justin
I was just traveling there with family. My brother and sister had just finished school, so we were just doing a trip there, and my parents were like, everybody pick an activity for.

00:02:45:15 - 00:02:47:08
Justin
Something they want to do.

00:02:47:10 - 00:02:52:15
Justin
And I thought hardest hike would be pretty fun. And then, yeah, none of them wanted to.

00:02:52:15 - 00:02:58:04
Justin
Do the volcano with me, which makes sense. But, so yeah, I did that.

00:02:58:07 - 00:03:00:26
Justin
Alone with with a guide. You know, my first

00:03:00:26 - 00:03:01:04
Kyle
Trip.

00:03:01:09 - 00:03:10:23
Kyle
And that was like, something your parents, like, funded for you during that trip. And it was like something they were just like, yeah, sure. Like how fun this is. Like your passion here. Like, let's let's send you off.

00:03:10:23 - 00:03:12:03
Justin
Mom wasn't super.

00:03:12:03 - 00:03:14:12
Justin
Excited that I wanted to climb this, you.

00:03:14:12 - 00:03:19:26
Justin
Know, glaciated peak. I mean, I think in her mind, it was still just a hike. And a bit in my mind,

00:03:19:26 - 00:03:28:02
Kyle
You. Yeah. That's what I was about to get at. Like how? Cool. Hike. Yeah. How much of, like, the scope of, like, what you were getting yourself into is actually, like, real in your mind?

00:03:29:03 - 00:03:51:25
Justin
Zero. You know, I was like, 20,000ft. Oh. Like what? I wonder what altitude is all about. Or snow or any of those things. And then, yeah, ended up being, like, four feet of fresh snow, from the night before. So my guide was breaking trail to his waist, and there was avalanche hazard, which I didn't know anything about.

00:03:51:28 - 00:04:12:13
Justin
So we ended up turning back at 19,000ft. So failed on my very first ever, you know, mountaineering attempt. But for me, that made it all the cooler. You know, that I could try really hard at something and have someone experienced and still not make it. It definitely like lit a fire where I was like, I want to do that

00:04:12:13 - 00:04:13:06
Kyle
again.

00:04:13:08 - 00:04:28:22
Kyle
What about the failure gave you motivation? Because I feel like a lot of people, it could be a deterrent, right? Like, a lot of people could be like, man, that was fucking hard. We failed. I didn't even get where I was going, like, fuck that. Like, what about the experience? Like, was it the failure that inspired you?

00:04:28:22 - 00:04:40:08
Kyle
Or was it like, just the whole experience that you were in, like the environment, the the movement, like the, the, the challenge like was that was like the failure was just kind of like part of that experience in a way.

00:04:40:20 - 00:05:17:03
Justin
I would say both the experience I thought was amazing, you know, just being in that environment, that headlamp, the crampons, everything was so foreign to me. And breathing hard and trying hard, I wasn't acclimatized at all. You know, I left my family in Quito for 24 hours to go try to do this thing and, and come back. And I think the failure was a big part of it, too, because I failed for so many reasons that I didn't know, I didn't know anything about avalanches, or could barely put on my crampons and didn't acclimatize because I didn't understand that was a factor to.

00:05:17:06 - 00:05:34:10
Justin
So I think the failure was like a real motivator of like, wow, like, this is such a deep rabbit hole and it's so interesting. Like all these puzzle pieces I need to learn about if I'm going to be successful at it. I think if it was easier right away, I wouldn't have been as excited

00:05:34:15 - 00:05:47:13
Kyle
Got it. So it was like almost like a carrot that we were like, you realized that it was something you couldn't succeed easily. And so you're like, wow. Like, there's this whole world now where I can, like, challenge myself and like, expand this horizon that I've just, like, scratched the surface on.

00:05:47:16 - 00:06:04:11
Justin
Totally. And this is like all the coolest things are involved in mountaineering. You know, ropes, ice axes, crampons. It's physically challenging. It's mentally challenging, you know, to feel bad at altitude and wake up in the middle of the night. So I still think it's the.

00:06:04:11 - 00:06:07:08
Justin
Best days for another planet. Like I love it so much.

00:06:07:08 - 00:06:22:25
Kyle
during our meet greet, you had said that there was, like, lots of misadventures during the Ecuador trip, and you kind of, like, covered a little bit of them. Maybe tell that story a little bit more in detail. And, like, what were some of those misadventures like, what were some of the mistakes that were made and what was that experience like for you?

00:06:25:02 - 00:06:25:24
Justin
Well.

00:06:25:26 - 00:06:46:21
Justin
The first. The first Ecuador trip was just me being terrible at mountaineering. I didn't know anything. I did not have it on my crampons or a headlamp on a helmet. You know, I was a total beginner, but I actually went back to Ecuador, during college a couple times after that first trip, I convinced a bunch of high school friends, essentially.

00:06:46:21 - 00:07:10:27
Justin
Or excuse me, not high school friends, college friends to come climbing with me down there. And this is, you know, one year after having done one, you know, mountaineering guided climb. But I was so possessed that when I got home, I started training, rock climbing and buying books about how to, you know, places, snow anchor or ballet and all that kind of stuff.

00:07:10:29 - 00:07:47:17
Justin
So yeah, we went back and did successfully climb Chimborazo and Cotopaxi and Colombia, all those cool peaks down there. Certainly not without struggles though. Yeah, I think still my hardest mountaineering day to date was Cotopaxi, with two friends from college. They had arrived three days before I did, hadn't gotten acclimatized, and we we climbed Lenny's, north and Lenny's a saw which are two 17,000ft peaks in Bolivia.

00:07:47:19 - 00:08:27:07
Justin
Like the day after I arrived, that was like two nights where I couldn't sleep because I was to altitude sick at 15,000ft, where we were kind of camping. And then the next night we tried to do Cotopaxi and I hadn't slept in now, three nights and we were leaving for like a midnight summit. I remember leaving the hut just torched and then getting to 19,000ft on Cotopaxi and just being a full zombie and altitude sick and yeah, not making it and having to go down, and then summiting like a week, a week later on that, on that trip.

00:08:27:10 - 00:08:37:13
Justin
But yeah, I mean infinite mis misadventures for sure. In my first few years of, of climbing, I'm very psyched to have survived them

00:08:37:13 - 00:08:40:27
Kyle
How much how many trips did you go on in your college years to Ecuador?

00:08:42:03 - 00:09:14:08
Justin
Three total. So the first one with my family, another one with a group of college friends. And then actually my senior year, I went back, with a two other college friends that had wanted to go, and that I was like, right before I had started guiding. So for me, it was kind of, Ooh, like, if I enjoy taking these college friends up these peaks as the experienced member at the time, I was like, if I enjoy this, then I think I could enjoy mountain guiding.

00:09:14:08 - 00:09:21:01
Justin
So it was kind of a fun test to see. I enjoy, like taking these inexperienced friends up the glacier. It'd be.

00:09:21:01 - 00:09:26:14
Kyle
Did. Any of those friends share the same passion for you? And like, did you, like, turn a light bulb on for some of these people?

00:09:26:19 - 00:09:46:16
Justin
Yeah. For sure. It's actually so cool. I probably have 5 or 6 friends, all from Atlanta that came on those first Ecuador trips that now live in Seattle and are total like crusher mountaineers that live in Seattle. And we're still in touch and friends, so it's kind of fun. We have a little Atlanta, Georgia.

00:09:46:16 - 00:09:50:04
Justin
Tech contingent that all started kind of mountaineering.

00:09:50:04 - 00:09:50:08
Justin
And

00:09:50:08 - 00:09:52:06
Kyle
didn't even become guides.

00:09:52:06 - 00:10:01:10
Justin
Let's see, one one did become a guide. My friend Hans for a couple years.

00:10:01:12 - 00:10:04:06
Justin
And then he went back to engineering.

00:10:04:08 - 00:10:07:28
Justin
I think I'm the only one. He's like, gone fully down the guiding

00:10:08:03 - 00:10:10:27
Kyle
Wow, that's so cool that you inspired so many people.

00:10:11:10 - 00:10:13:21
Justin
Yeah. For better or for worse.

00:10:14:03 - 00:10:15:19
Kyle
Yeah.

00:10:15:21 - 00:10:25:11
Kyle
You, kind of alluded to the fact that you, like, took excessive risk early on. What did that what does that mean? And, like, what did that actually look like to you?

00:10:25:11 - 00:10:53:09
Justin
Yeah. I think for me, like having the motivation to climb anything and everything. But not really having a good mentor growing up, you know, I didn't know anybody who did mountaineering or trad climbing in, in Georgia. Yeah. Just taking risks I didn't know I was taking, you know, now, I think I really understand the mountains well and know when I'm taking risk or when I'm not.

00:10:53:12 - 00:11:15:04
Justin
But that first year, especially the first summer that I started trad climbing and was out in Washington state for the whole summer, I mean, I was like a kid in a candy store. There's so many amazing alpine climbs in Washington. So we were infinitely motivated. My, my like, best friend Adam and I, we started climbing together. He had one like single track track.

00:11:15:06 - 00:11:22:06
Justin
I had one single track track. I had practiced multi pitch climbing on offense one time.

00:11:22:08 - 00:11:24:04
Justin
Actually that by that friend hands.

00:11:24:04 - 00:11:25:00
Justin
He like taught me how to.

00:11:25:00 - 00:11:25:28
Justin
Multi pitch climb.

00:11:25:28 - 00:11:43:04
Justin
You know just on a chain link fence. And he had placed gear at a crag one time. So we were like together we'll be unstoppable. But we did the stupidest things, you know, he showed up at the base of an alpine climb with a rope that was still in its packaging. I remember it was like.

00:11:43:04 - 00:11:46:13
Justin
The Tommy Caldwell duel with a rope and took.

00:11:46:16 - 00:11:55:02
Justin
Two hours to unpack it. And then when we finally got on the climb, it was the easiest route ever. And like A56 ridge climb. And I totally whiffed on the.

00:11:55:02 - 00:11:56:19
Justin
Last five six pitch.

00:11:56:19 - 00:12:19:17
Justin
Because my rope drag was so terrible. It went like this way, that way in back. And it's not safe to whip on A56 ridge climb. You know, there's a lot of ledges to hit. So, yeah, I feel super fortunate that I didn't get hurt in my first few years of of climbing. And yeah, it's like a lot to learn fast.

00:12:19:19 - 00:12:35:12
Justin
And now I feel like when I do choose to take risk, it's calculated where back then, I didn't know what risk I was taking. And I think that's kind of the scariest place to be in climbing those first few years with a lot of motivation and

00:12:35:12 - 00:12:35:23
Kyle
Yeah.

00:12:35:27 - 00:12:37:12
Kyle
I mean.

00:12:37:14 - 00:12:53:18
Kyle
I found myself in a similar boat, like, a lot of gusto, a lot of motivation to just, like, bring people out. Like, I had, like, a half day crash course at a crag, like, here's how to place a can, like, here's your first five six. And I was like, fuck yeah, here we go. Like five nine multi pitch and targets.

00:12:53:18 - 00:13:04:27
Kyle
Here we come. Like and yeah again like like you said I, I survived in Do you feel like like what's the difference between courage and recklessness.

00:13:06:20 - 00:13:43:03
Justin
Courage and recklessness, man. I think. I think of courage and more of, like, a gallant kind of way where you're maybe, you know, going to help somebody else. And it's scary, but you're, like, courageous and brave and you're, like, going up and and willing to help. I think of recklessness more in maybe like a heat of the moment, you're excited to do something and you're maybe over stoked and you, like, recklessly hug for it, even if it's maybe not within your abilities.

00:13:43:06 - 00:13:57:17
Justin
I guess you do need to be courageous if you're going to, to intentionally take a risk that you're well prepared for and you really want to do. But I think some people would still call it recklessness.

00:13:57:17 - 00:13:58:05
Justin
You know.

00:13:58:08 - 00:13:59:28
Justin
Everything we do is optional in

00:14:00:11 - 00:14:21:10
Kyle
Totally. Yeah, I think it's in the eye of the beholder in that regard. But I definitely based on what you were talking about before, I think it's to me it's linked to like the knowledge of the risk. Courage is like, I recognize the risk and I choose to do it anyway as prepared as possible to mitigate those risks.

00:14:21:12 - 00:14:30:17
Kyle
Recklessness is choosing to do something without the knowledge of what these risks actually are. And you're just, like, recklessly going after this because you have stoke.

00:14:30:17 - 00:14:32:29
Justin
Some ignorance involved, maybe with recklessness

00:14:32:29 - 00:14:33:16
Kyle
yeah.

00:14:33:16 - 00:14:37:28
Kyle
And I think that's like at least for me that's like the deciding factor is knowledge, right.

00:14:38:01 - 00:14:40:05
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah I think yeah.

00:14:40:12 - 00:15:05:20
Kyle
Maybe that makes everybody who knows what they're doing courageous. But again like you said like a lot of people could probably argue against the fact that climbing is courageous at all because it lacks that. Others serving like element to it. Right. It's in the in general, climbing is like a self-serving sport. And so, like, are you courageous for taking risk for yourself, like where everybody else loses if you die?

00:15:05:20 - 00:15:06:09
Kyle
You know.

00:15:06:20 - 00:15:08:18
Justin
I think I'm really courageous.

00:15:08:21 - 00:15:13:03
Justin
But I think my mom. I think I'm a little reckless, you know? So, like, what can

00:15:13:03 - 00:15:15:20
Kyle
yeah, what can you do?

00:15:15:20 - 00:15:46:21
Kyle
On this kind of same vein, like. Kind of leaning more towards this, like, mentorship topic? There's two ways we learn things. It's through trial and error and through the teachings of others. How do you navigate those two and how do you recommend, like, someone getting into the sport balance those two things because I do think there is value in trial and error, like there's something about learning the lessons yourself.

00:15:46:23 - 00:16:10:01
Kyle
But unfortunately with a sport like climbing where trial and error can get you killed and you like, you might not survive the lesson you needed to learn, right? Some of us, like I got in my accident, I could have died and like I, I would not have been given that opportunity to have learned everything that I have learned up to this point because of that accident.

00:16:10:04 - 00:16:22:07
Kyle
So while trial and error, quote unquote benefited me in the moment, it could have killed somebody else. So, like, how do you balance that aspect of learning versus like acquiring knowledge through others as we start to get into the sport?

00:16:22:26 - 00:16:46:18
Justin
Good question. I mean, I think undoubtedly, in a perfect world, everybody has a mentor or a guide or takes a course or a class or join some, like, sort of organization where there's people who who know more than them. I think the reality, though, is in our sport, a lot of people live really far away from climbing.

00:16:46:18 - 00:16:49:01
Justin
You know, in Atlanta there's no mountaineers group.

00:16:49:02 - 00:16:50:19
Justin
You know, who's going to.

00:16:50:22 - 00:16:56:05
Justin
Be able to teach me how to use crampons and an ice ax. And even if there were, there's no snow.

00:16:56:05 - 00:16:58:13
Justin
In Georgia to use said.

00:16:58:16 - 00:17:36:28
Justin
Grant funds in an ice ax. So yeah, I think, you know, I ideally, you know, people get excited about it. They practice in the ways that are safe to practice, you know, like you can train by trail running and you can go to a climbing gym and get stronger. But then when it comes to, leading that first trad climb, leading that first sport climb, going on that first multi pitch, I think those critical steps where there is really high risk and high consequence, I think in a perfect world, you know, people can, you know, take a course with a guide service and learn how to do that or have a mentor who's

00:17:36:28 - 00:17:40:02
Justin
like, you know experienced and has good techniques

00:17:40:02 - 00:17:41:13
Kyle
And you can I teach that too?

00:17:41:16 - 00:17:41:26
Kyle
Yeah.

00:17:42:03 - 00:18:01:03
Kyle
How do you deal with like so there's definitely this like kind of growing epidemic where there's a lot of climbers and not enough mentors. Back in the day, it was kind of like the mentors needed other climbers so that they could even climb, right, because there's just weren't enough of us. But now there's too many of us, and now we're all thirsty for mentors and there's just not enough mentors.

00:18:01:05 - 00:18:27:25
Kyle
And so, like, obviously like the to me, the solution for that is, is guides like yourself like, intro to climbing like these courses that you guys offer. But I think there's like a stigma where it's like cost prohibitive for a lot of people. Is that true? Are there more cost effective options? Or do you think that, you know, obviously, given people's circumstances, I climbing in general is cost prohibitive.

00:18:27:27 - 00:18:38:28
Kyle
Like, what would you advise someone to do if, like, mentors aren't really working? Like, how should they approach trying to find a cost effective way to get guide service?

00:18:38:28 - 00:19:09:25
Justin
Totally. Yeah. I mean, the reality is mountaineering is an expensive sport, and I wish. I wish that it. It wasn't. You know, the gear is expensive. I think the most cost effective options are, like a couple things. There's group courses where it's like a larger group, and then the cost is less to, you know, learn how to trad climb or learn how to multi pitch climb, you know, something to the tune of like a couple hundred dollars kind of thing, which is still not nothing.

00:19:09:28 - 00:19:30:27
Justin
But more affordable than, you know, big mountaineering expeditions to faraway places kind of thing. And then I think the other and probably most cost effective option is any sort of like local mountaineering group, you know, if you can join a local mountaineering group, often those are free or like, you know, $50 for the year kind of membership.

00:19:30:29 - 00:19:59:19
Justin
And I think those can be a good way to enter. I think that one struggle sometimes those have is that the mentors in the groups sometimes are like really old climbers with antiquated techniques. So sometimes it's not like the best, most cutting edge techniques that you'll get, like you will in like, you know, a guide course where the guides are taking, you know, training year after year with the most updated, you know, equipment.

00:19:59:22 - 00:20:07:06
Justin
But hey, like, money is, you know, not not easy to come by. So I think that's probably the most cost effective way.

00:20:07:08 - 00:20:18:22
Kyle
Yeah. It could at least be a stepping stone towards like do I want to invest and take that next step and like go up and in kind of, both investment in time and also money and like pursuing this kind of education.

00:20:18:25 - 00:20:20:18
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah.

00:20:20:20 - 00:20:43:18
Kyle
What about yourself. So you kind of had talked about like, you, you started out your climbing career without a mentor, kind of went through that reckless stage, trial and error. Survived. But then you seem you, you know, you decided you wanted to be a guide after your experience teaching your friends. It seems like that was the point where mentorship kind of really entered your your climbing career.

00:20:43:21 - 00:20:55:19
Kyle
Who is that person? Talk to me about that. That that person. And, like, what was that relationship like? And, like, what were those key things that you like, learned about risk management and climbing in general during that stage?

00:20:55:19 - 00:21:22:04
Justin
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I felt like I existed in this, like, silo in Atlanta where I was convincing friends to go climbing, but I actually didn't know how to climb myself either. But I'd built up enough of a resume to, like, be able to apply to work at a guide service on Rainier. And then when I showed up at Rainier, I was like, man, there's like 40 other guides here, like a bunch of which are super amazing, like mountaineers and climbers.

00:21:22:04 - 00:21:45:28
Justin
And my main mentor, this guy Justin Murley, he was the chief guide at the company when I started. He had summited Everest 12 times. He had the speed record on Rainier for like climbing to the top and coming down as fast as possible, like phenomenal ice and mixed climber like, in my mind, I was like, this guy is the pinnacle of like, what I want to be as a climber.

00:21:46:00 - 00:22:16:07
Justin
So yeah, we became like good friends. We started going on climbs together. He hired me to work in Europe, where we are now, and I got to do my first, like season of ice and mixed climbing, guiding. And yeah, he just had such good mountain sense, you know, like reading terrain, avalanche hazard, you know, climbing safely and, like, within your abilities, which is, you know, increasingly important with ice and mixed climbing where falling is not allowed.

00:22:16:09 - 00:22:37:21
Justin
So, yeah, we just had so many great climbing days together. And just picking his brain, you know, about anything and everything. Really, like, I feel like, opened up my world of climbing and climbing more safely in a more calculated way. You know, just like having a better view of the big picture, even though he's, like, jokingly say.

00:22:37:21 - 00:22:44:14
Justin
Like, yeah, you just you need more mountains. And it's just and, you know, so yeah, he's agreement.

00:22:44:14 - 00:23:04:28
Kyle
I think, like one of the things that I love about, like specifically mentors and education like that is you, I would imagine you cram a lot of knowledge in a short amount of time versus like if you go through trial and error, it's going to take you a long time to, like, learn all of these lessons.

00:23:05:01 - 00:23:26:04
Kyle
And so like, you know, is that is that concept true. Like how how much progression did you see in what kind of amount of time after like committing to the craft and like being exposed to these people? Was it like six months, like two months like and how much of the how much of a disparity was it, you know, for, your knowledge and who you were as a climber?

00:23:26:04 - 00:23:26:28
Justin
Yeah.

00:23:27:01 - 00:23:50:26
Justin
I think it's it's huge for people that live on the East Coast or in the Midwest. You know, we often get to mountaineer or going big rock climbing adventures outside of the gym once a year, you know? So once a year I would go or a few times a year, you know, maybe like spring break and winter break, I'd go on a mountaineering trip with friends and I'd make some big mistake and it'd be really scary and really dangerous.

00:23:51:01 - 00:24:19:09
Justin
And then I would learn, like, one thing on that trip, you know, then I'd go back, I'd keep training, I'd get stronger. Which is bad because it means you could get more trouble. And then I go back and I'd make another mistake. But yeah, once I moved out to Washington and was, you know, guiding full time, I'd bought the Mountain Guide Manual, which I would recommend to anybody, basically has like the best up to date, you know, technical systems for any terrain from like rock to snow to ice.

00:24:19:11 - 00:24:38:14
Justin
And every time I'd go out climbing, I could, like, reference that I had mentors around who would, like, tell me their best system for any solution. And then it was like day after day getting like great knowledge, you know, basically taking course after course with these experience guides I was working with. And that made all the difference.

00:24:38:14 - 00:24:53:12
Justin
You know, I probably went from being, very motivated, but not very like technically competent climber to feeling like I had the whole toolbox at my disposal and I could make good decisions and use good technical system.

00:24:53:21 - 00:24:54:18
Kyle
Yeah, yeah.

00:24:54:18 - 00:25:17:29
Kyle
It's cool. I think I can't go, like, understated. Just like how fast you can learn when you, like, choose the right path versus just, like you said, like once a year, making a mistake and learning from it and hopefully surviving and then coming back. And just like repeating that process, like I can't count how many times I gotta go back and look at my GoPro footage of the climbing I used to do before my accident.

00:25:18:01 - 00:25:35:24
Kyle
And like, you know, it's a smaller scale. It's related to trad placements, but like, I would just look at my trad place and be like that wouldn't hold that one, hold that one hold. You know, like I climb Darkstar. I like the first two pitches in this mega 70 meter pitch. Tennessee like. And I was a great technical climber, so I was able to pull it off.

00:25:35:24 - 00:25:56:19
Kyle
But like I went, I was placing pro every 20ft, you know, like maybe 25ft. And it would be like 25ft micro. Not like in this flared thing, 25ft like bad can, 25ft like another micro, micro nut. And like I just look back at it, I'm like, I fucking survived that. But nothing happened. And so I finish the climb.

00:25:56:19 - 00:25:58:04
Kyle
I came back to the ground and I was like, I'm.

00:25:58:04 - 00:26:00:17
Kyle
A fucking badass climber. Like fucking sick, you know?

00:26:00:17 - 00:26:05:19
Kyle
Like I didn't learn anything because nothing went wrong. But if things had gone wrong, I would have been bad.

00:26:05:20 - 00:26:05:27
Kyle
Yeah.

00:26:05:27 - 00:26:09:11
Justin
You don't get to learn. If you take the ultimate fall.

00:26:09:11 - 00:26:09:25
Justin
You know?

00:26:09:25 - 00:26:19:16
Kyle
Yeah, yeah, you either die or you don't learn because nothing went wrong in the first place. Yeah, I think, Ryan Jenks said it better. I said it in a funny way. Like, you don't know what you don't know. If you don't know that, you don't know it.

00:26:19:19 - 00:26:21:00
Kyle
Yeah, totally. Yeah.

00:26:21:00 - 00:26:30:08
Kyle
It's just like you. You can't learn something that you don't even know exists. Like, you think all your placements are great, but if someone's there to tell you that they're not, you won't learn. Yeah. It's wild.

00:26:30:08 - 00:26:40:26
Kyle
this mentor of yours, like a, I don't know, like a most impactful lesson or like, the most, like, light bulb went off moment during your like this rapid progression of knowledge acquisition.

00:26:40:26 - 00:26:47:17
Kyle
Like was there like a key moment that you remember where you're just like, wow, like things are different now?

00:26:47:17 - 00:27:18:24
Justin
I think my my bassist learning with him was we went out climbing two days together. In your a around here, multi pitch ice climbing and. Yeah, we just covered everything from like when you should place protection protecting yourself from leader falls. How to do a v threat anchor how to efficiently like you technical descents. And at that time, you know the world of ice climbing was still pretty new to me.

00:27:18:26 - 00:27:38:22
Justin
And ice climbing has all the factors, you know, it has, like avalanche hazard. It has technical rope systems, like crampons, ice axes. It's, I don't know, maybe the one of the more complicated aspects of climbing where there's a lot going on. So I think in those few days, yeah, it was super impactful. And I like learned I learned a lot.

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00:28:51:22 - 00:29:09:27
Kyle
I think even the idea of becoming a guide to people is like this arduous process of like, you go look up on an ang mga site and you look at the certification courses and it's like nine grand, like to get your certification or you know, like, do I do the SPI, like, what was that process like for you?

00:29:09:27 - 00:29:18:12
Kyle
Like, how did you become a guide? Like, did you have to get a certification first? Like, what was that certification process like for you?

00:29:18:14 - 00:29:19:16
Kyle
Yeah. What did that book.

00:29:19:16 - 00:29:38:02
Justin
Yeah. People ask me that a lot. I think a lot of people are excited to be guides, which is great. And the process, for me was I got really motivated about climbing. Thought I was amazing. I was like, how can I do this for the rest of my life? Which I think a lot of people think.

00:29:38:05 - 00:29:43:15
Justin
And I was like, well, I could become a guide. And which

00:29:43:19 - 00:29:48:29
Kyle
It's very relatable. Now, I think that I think that phrase probably pops into a lot of people's minds.

00:29:48:29 - 00:29:49:27
Justin
Yeah. Totally.

00:29:49:27 - 00:29:57:06
Kyle
I love climbing. How do I get paid to do this? First thing probably pops into a lot of minds. It's like, I could be a guide.

00:29:57:09 - 00:29:58:09
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah.

00:29:58:14 - 00:30:00:07
Justin
Totally.

00:30:00:10 - 00:30:26:24
Justin
So, yeah, in the United States, probably the easiest place to start mountaineering guiding is Mount Rainier, because there's a lot of guides that work on the mountain, a lot of people climbing. So they need a lot of new guides to like, fill those roles. And the national park dictates that you need to have your avalanche. One certification and your Wilderness first responder course, you know, Wilderness first responder course like a ten day course.

00:30:26:24 - 00:30:53:01
Justin
The avalanche course is like a three day course. I don't know, maybe a $1,500 investment between the two. So not crazy in the grand scheme. But with those two and zero experience, like, you certainly won't get hired. I probably barely had enough experience to get hired. You know, I was in Atlanta and I'd climbed, I don't know, a few, you know, 20,000ft peaks unguided.

00:30:53:01 - 00:31:16:29
Justin
I'd done a few trips into the Sierra. I'd climbed Rainier and Baker and some of the easier alpine climbs in Washington. And that was enough to, like, get hired as an apprentice guide on Rainier and then work my way up from there. Other guide services you know, that don't have as high volume or do like more technical custom trips.

00:31:16:29 - 00:31:45:06
Justin
You generally need like a higher level of certification. Like like my company. Like we're not hiring any new guides that just have those two certifications. We're hiring guides with MBA certifications and a lot more experience. But because those companies have so many guides, you know, they do mentorship. There's a lead guide, there's assistant guides, and the assistant guides are often pretty new to mountaineering and climbing.

00:31:45:08 - 00:31:49:00
Justin
And they teach the guides like kind of everything they need to know on the job,

00:31:49:09 - 00:32:06:07
Kyle
That's cool. It's nice that you don't have to, like, go through the full credit creation accreditation process, to even be considered a guide like that. That whole process you just described to me is new, new information for me. Yeah. What do you think is cool for people to understand?

00:32:06:07 - 00:32:28:27
Justin
Totally. Yeah. It's very different than Europe, for example. Like in Europe, becoming a guide involves basically going to a four year college, and only after that four year college, like can you guide at all. But in the US we don't have the same like certification process and everything. We have the MGA and certifications, but they're not yet fully required by land managers.

00:32:28:27 - 00:32:41:01
Justin
Right. Not very near National Park doesn't require those certifications. So it's up to the guide services to choose whether their guides need to be certified or they just need these like minimum certification.

00:32:41:12 - 00:32:43:24
Kyle
What are your certifications at this point right now?

00:32:43:24 - 00:32:55:24
Justin
Right now I have my Avalanche Pro one, I have my Angat like full rock cert and then I'm like two courses into the alpine track.

00:32:55:24 - 00:33:03:03
Justin
So one more alpine exam course to take and then one more or couple more ski courses to take.

00:33:03:07 - 00:33:06:07
Kyle
Cool and so your goal is I figure.

00:33:06:07 - 00:33:25:19
Justin
Yeah, I'm hoping to get, I figure, within the next couple of years. Yeah. The tricky thing is, like, I love learning and progressing and all those things, but yeah, the certifications aren't required. So I take the courses, like, just for my personal learning and, and enjoyment.

00:33:25:21 - 00:33:26:10
Justin
Yeah.

00:33:26:13 - 00:33:39:05
Justin
Yeah. And for context, you know, the courses are about $5,000 per course. So in total, you're probably looking at, you know, 30 or $40,000 to get the full IFJ certification.

00:33:39:05 - 00:33:39:18
Kyle
certification.

00:33:39:18 - 00:33:42:17
Kyle
So like, like a bachelor's degree in the 90s.

00:33:42:27 - 00:33:43:21
Justin
Yeah.

00:33:43:24 - 00:33:45:02
Justin
Cheaper than a bachelor's

00:33:45:02 - 00:33:45:25
Kyle
degree.

00:33:46:23 - 00:34:12:07
Justin
But yeah, a lot of work, you know, and it's cool that, like, the the requirements are pretty high. Like in rock, you got to lead, 511 onsite trad routes. You got a lead. Like, why for ice and then just be a good skier and then alpine climbing, you know, they'll make you guide grade five alpine routes in, like, good style in a day.

00:34:12:07 - 00:34:13:12
Justin
Kind of thing.

00:34:14:06 - 00:34:16:21
Justin
Yeah. Yeah, it's a fun process for sure.

00:34:16:21 - 00:34:38:09
Kyle
I think some people think about guiding and they have a sense of recoil because there's a sense of like, well, I won't be able to work on my personal goals as a climber. How do you balance your personal goals as a climber? And, then now, like, responsibilities and, work that you have to support?

00:34:38:09 - 00:34:41:20
Kyle
You're living on the guide side. Like, how do you balance those two worlds?

00:34:41:23 - 00:35:06:17
Justin
Totally. That balance I think is is huge and drives a lot of people away from, from guiding. A lot of people have become guides with this idea of I'll get to get paid to climb. But the reality is like if you're becoming a guide or quickly after you become a guide, you're going to be climbing. Ideally, like at, a higher level than your clients.

00:35:06:17 - 00:35:31:08
Justin
Right? So like, let's say you're a 512 climber, you're only ever going to probably guide like five nine or below. So on days that you're working, you're climbing and you're outside and you're sharing this experience with people, which I love. That's like why I'm again, I love sharing like the outdoors with people. But most guiding days are counterproductive to me progressing as a climber, you know?

00:35:31:10 - 00:36:01:01
Justin
And I think without a really dedicated training plan and being really intentional about, like training on your days off from guiding, most guides either plateau or get worse on the technical climbing side. So yeah, it's, it's a challenge for sure. Something that I've fought really hard to not lose. Like my personal climbing passion. I still have improved year after year, but I'm the idiot in the tent who has, like, a portable hang board.

00:36:01:01 - 00:36:09:20
Justin
You know, all summer. That's just like cranking on this little piece of wood that try to keep my fingers from atrophying. You know, climbing some big snowy mountain.

00:36:11:01 - 00:36:11:27
Kyle
Yeah, yeah.

00:36:11:27 - 00:36:26:05
Kyle
And that's two into discipline training. Like one discipline steals from the other in a way. Like, if you're amazing on a high altitude mountain, like you might lose some weight, but you're also going to lose strength when you come back to try to do, like, technical rock climbing or.

00:36:26:10 - 00:36:28:28
Justin
Yeah, totally. I've been training for, you.

00:36:28:28 - 00:36:31:15
Justin
Know, cardio the past couple months.

00:36:31:17 - 00:36:36:18
Justin
And I got way more pumped ice climbing today than I normally do because, yeah.

00:36:36:18 - 00:36:39:15
Justin
My legs are in great shape and at the cost of my arms.

00:36:39:15 - 00:36:41:15
Kyle
Yeah.

00:36:41:18 - 00:36:58:17
Kyle
Yeah, that's a hard thing when you like, especially, I figure the entire discipline climber, you don't have this myopic focus. It's like there's seasons. You have to like, morph and change and shift focus. And I'm sure that keeps things interesting, but also more challenging way.

00:36:58:25 - 00:37:10:06
Justin
Yeah. More challenging to progress for sure. You know, I have a season where I try to push my rock grade and I have a season where I ski and I, you know, climb big snowy hills. And that doesn't help push my rock grade.

00:37:10:07 - 00:37:11:18
Justin
You know.

00:37:12:08 - 00:37:38:07
Kyle
When you are actually guiding clients now, how do you balance, like letting people learn versus, like, keeping them safe? Also like teaching them, like activities with teaching them versus kind of like letting them figure things out on their own, like, what's that dance for you? Do you have, like, an approach for how you try to transmit knowledge to people?

00:37:38:09 - 00:37:49:25
Kyle
Do you let like are some people that are just for the experience and not for learning at all? What's that kind of like as a as a teacher, as a coach, as someone who's trying to share knowledge? Like, what does that process look like for you?

00:37:50:04 - 00:38:17:08
Justin
Yeah, absolutely. I think the most important thing is before I, you know, put my own teaching style or opinion or how I think people should learn on to anybody. I try to get a good read on them and get a good understanding for what their motivation is, why they're they're like what they want out of it. I think the most important thing is meeting people where they're at.

00:38:17:11 - 00:38:31:02
Justin
So some people already have a lot of knowledge, you know, and they come into a guiding course knowing like, hey, like, this is where I'm at, and I want to learn like these more advanced topics. Do you teach that person how to put on crampons? It's pretty useless.

00:38:31:02 - 00:38:31:07
Justin
To.

00:38:31:07 - 00:38:59:24
Justin
Them because, you know, maybe they already know how to do that. So yeah, I think it varies a lot based on who I'm climbing with and what their experience is. You know, I guided anyone from beginner who's never put on crampons before all the way to, like, you know, pretty darn good, like technical climbers who, you know, just want to know more about, like, how to navigate big mountain terrain and like, the different risks associated with that.

00:38:59:26 - 00:39:05:16
Justin
But they they don't need to learn how to play from above like they've, they've done that a thousand times on multiple video.

00:39:05:16 - 00:39:12:22
Kyle
Do you typically guide single people more often or small groups or large groups? Like what does that look like for you in terms of frequency?

00:39:13:25 - 00:39:36:02
Justin
It's a good mix now, I'd say right now I'm probably guiding two thirds single people or two people, you know, like 1 to 1 or 2 to 1. Yeah. On kind of more technical objectives in Washington, you know, like the Northridge Baker or the Westridge, the forbidden. Those are kind of my two most done trips last year.

00:39:36:04 - 00:39:55:26
Justin
But then still doing some like Intro to Mountaineering kind of climbs on on Baker. You know, I love both. Honestly, when I get to guide the Northridge Baker, it's like beautiful position and so fun. And I get to swing my tools and do a little climbing. But also like a brand new climber who doesn't know anything like the sense of wonderment they have.

00:39:55:26 - 00:39:57:28
Justin
And, you know, they cry on their first summit.

00:39:57:28 - 00:39:59:06
Justin
Kind of thing. Like.

00:39:59:08 - 00:40:01:22
Justin
I don't know that, like, fills my cup a lot to you.

00:40:01:22 - 00:40:16:18
Kyle
beautiful. It's a life changing experience. I mean, even for, I'm sure you and I during those moments, it's just like, yeah, it's it's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot of change, a lot of beauty challenge, personal development. It's cool. It's nice that you're able to facilitate.

00:40:16:18 - 00:40:18:04
Kyle
That for people.

00:40:18:04 - 00:40:18:15
Justin
Yeah.

00:40:18:17 - 00:40:21:17
Justin
I, I love it. I feel like the best, best job on the planet.

00:40:21:17 - 00:40:22:08
Justin
So.

00:40:22:12 - 00:40:37:17
Kyle
Have you ever, have you had any clients that, like, lie about what they're capable of and then, like, you pick an objective and like, you're halfway through and you realize, like, holy hell, like this person is not capable of, like, what we're doing right now.

00:40:37:29 - 00:40:39:02
Justin
Yeah, I really try.

00:40:39:02 - 00:40:41:14
Justin
To avoid that because that's like the.

00:40:41:14 - 00:41:07:09
Justin
Worst situation for a guy to, you know, to be halfway up a route where it's hard to bail off of and the person's bonked or can't climb the pitch or whatever it may be. Unfortunately, most of my trips with technical climbing, I've either climbed with the person before and I know their capabilities, or I'll often build in, training day.

00:41:07:09 - 00:41:27:05
Justin
Like prior to the climb to be like, okay, like this is going to be really indicative of the terrain we're about to climb. Like, let's see how this goes, you know? And if it goes well, then, sweet. We do the climb. If it doesn't, you know, it's pretty easy to have a conversation of saying like, hey, we're going to have to climb ten pitches like that.

00:41:27:07 - 00:41:32:04
Justin
And that one pitch was like pretty challenging. And they're like, okay, like, I.

00:41:32:04 - 00:41:33:18
Justin
Don't want to climb ten pitches

00:41:33:18 - 00:41:34:05
Kyle
like, yeah.

00:41:34:05 - 00:41:53:25
Kyle
So it's probably never like, a maleficent, like, I don't know, like a client's like trying to get themselves in a bad spot. They just don't even know what they're getting themselves into and are just super overconfident. And it's like your job to just make sure that they know what they're getting themselves into.

00:41:53:25 - 00:41:54:03
Kyle
Yeah,

00:41:54:03 - 00:41:55:13
Justin
mean, just like when you and I.

00:41:55:13 - 00:41:57:11
Justin
Started climbing, like, we had all.

00:41:57:11 - 00:42:00:01
Justin
The confidence and, like, in the world and.

00:42:00:03 - 00:42:03:06
Justin
Less of the ability.

00:42:03:06 - 00:42:10:00
Kyle
Yeah. And you can even win. Even if you're with a guy, you can still get yourself into a nasty situation if you're not prepared.

00:42:10:02 - 00:42:10:23
Kyle
Yeah.

00:42:10:23 - 00:42:27:22
Kyle
What about some of your stories, like, as a guide, to come to mind here, like Liberty Ridge and, the Rainier Ice Block incident? So, like, switching a little bit more into storytelling mode again. Like, talk to me about your experience on Liberty Ridge.

00:42:27:26 - 00:42:34:18
Justin
Chair. So yeah. That wasn't wasn't guiding how I was like a personal climb. But I was climbing with another

00:42:34:18 - 00:42:36:28
Kyle
But it was still after you had become a guide.

00:42:37:02 - 00:42:37:26
Justin
Yeah.

00:42:37:29 - 00:43:04:03
Justin
Yeah. So it was. I think it was only my my second year guiding on Rainier. I had just done my first Denali trip, and felt like good on Denali. So I was like, oh, man. Like, I'm feeling really strong right now. When I get back, I'm going to try to do Liberty Ridge. And I convinced the like the lead guide on that Denali expedition, my good friend Rowan, I was like, man, I think we could do Liberty Ridge.

00:43:04:03 - 00:43:26:15
Justin
It'd be awesome. It snowed a lot, so the route should still be in good condition. And yeah, the problem was it had snowed too much. We were breaking trail to our our waist. For the pretty much the whole route. It's like a 6000 or no 5000ft route. Starts around 9000ft and goes all the way to the summit at 14.

00:43:26:18 - 00:43:50:01
Justin
And, yeah, breaking trail to our waist. And had a small weather window, where, you know, a storm was forecasted to come in at like midnight. And we were a little slower than we thought. We thought we'd summit around like noon and ended up some getting closer to, like 3 or 4 p.m. because of how how deep the trail breaking was.

00:43:50:03 - 00:44:13:09
Justin
And yeah, the last 500ft, you know, the cloud cap started to drop on the mountain. You certainly don't want to go down Liberty Ridge. You know, it'd be like a lot of Steve, Steve, you know, 60 degree snow down climbing. So our plan was to go up and over the summit crater and then come down the Emmons route, which is an easier route to, to descend.

00:44:13:12 - 00:44:36:25
Justin
And yeah, we reached the, the summit crater around like 3 p.m. in a full storm. The storm came in just like, I don't know, nine hours earlier than it was forecasted. 60 mile an hour winds, full whiteout. And, you know, we were planning to go fast in light, so we had, like, one small puffy jacket each.

00:44:36:27 - 00:45:13:09
Justin
And it was probably the, the most aggressively. I felt that like the environment I am in, I cannot exist the like long in and and stay alive. Like if we had stopped moving like we would not have survived long just because, you know, probably negative ten or worse. Wind chill with like 60 mile an hour winds. And the problem was, as we tried to traverse across the crater, it's maybe only a half mile would take like 20 minutes in clear conditions.

00:45:13:12 - 00:45:33:26
Justin
But yeah, it was full whiteout flat snow on the top of the crater and 60 mile an hour wind. So any time we'd try to orient ourselves towards the Emmons, we'd get, like blown over by a wind gust and then walk in the wrong direction. And there's so much, you know, snow and rhyme that, like getting out a phone to navigate was super challenging.

00:45:33:27 - 00:45:43:03
Justin
I remember my like, my right eye was getting hit with enough wind and snow that like it got frozen shot from from like the.

00:45:43:03 - 00:45:44:09
Justin
The eyelids getting

00:45:44:26 - 00:45:45:19
Justin
together.

00:45:45:19 - 00:45:46:05
Kyle
Wow.

00:45:47:08 - 00:46:20:07
Justin
But we, we made it over to the top of, of the Emmons and, and made our way down. But yeah, that was a big learning moment for me, too, of like, hey, if I'm going to climb a big commiting route, I want to have like 1 or 2 full days of margin before any bad weather is gonna come in, because, yeah, I think one of the the scarier moments where, you know, this guy that I really looked up to run super Hardy dude was our expedition leader on Denali.

00:46:20:07 - 00:46:45:11
Justin
I remember on the summit, he looked over at me and he was like, man, like, my parents are going to be so pissed, like, I can't you know, can't believe we were like, in this situation. Like, like he's the, you know, not, I guess he's kind of a, like a tough guy, you know, but I could tell, like, based on what he was saying, he was, like, very worried about, like, not making it down alive.

00:46:45:11 - 00:47:04:16
Kyle
It seems like that was something you, like, witnessed rather than having that, like, same internal narrative. Like, what about your personality? Do you feel like, prevented you from, like, having any sort of psychological breakdown, like you, you were able to recognize the risk that you were in, like you were like, hey, like, I can't be here any longer.

00:47:04:16 - 00:47:27:17
Kyle
I'm going to die. But it wasn't like this panic that was creeping. At least it didn't sound like the way you're describing it. Like, have you experienced, like, moments of panic? Like, is that something that you relate with or, what about that situation didn't invoke those kind of feelings for you? Because I feel like, yeah, it's like a, it's a situation that lacks a lot of control and you're kind of like, just got to figure it out.

00:47:27:20 - 00:47:30:01
Kyle
And those are the kind of situations where, yeah, people panic.

00:47:30:21 - 00:47:35:08
Justin
Yeah. I often joke with my friends that I only have one, one brain cell, and.

00:47:35:08 - 00:47:36:08
Justin
I can only focus on.

00:47:36:08 - 00:48:09:22
Justin
One thing at a time. And I find that in these, like, really, you know, objectively dangerous mountain situations, whether you're in a storm and if you stop moving, that means you're going to die or you're leading a pitch of ice. So in my mind, like when there is real hazard, I like acknowledge that there's real hazard, but then like keep the fear fully down and just focus on like, okay, like objectively, what is the best thing we can do in this situation to like maximize our, you know, chances of survival?

00:48:09:22 - 00:48:18:12
Justin
I mean, it is life and death in the mountains. And yeah, I, I guess that's, like a strength of mind to have this.

00:48:18:12 - 00:48:20:26
Justin
One, one brain cell that that will.

00:48:20:26 - 00:48:41:21
Justin
Only focus on, like, how can we get out of this safely? Because he. Yeah, I remember him saying, like, my parents are going to be pissed. Like, I don't know if we're going to make it down. Okay. He was like, we should find a funeral to like Vivian. That's like a steam vent on the the summit. And I remember, like, going back to him bluntly and saying, like, we need to keep moving.

00:48:41:21 - 00:49:12:28
Justin
Like we do not have enough clothes to, like, stay warm up here for the night. I was like, we need to like, go to the emons. And if we can just keep moving and get down and we'll be okay. Unfortunately, like, we had the strength to keep moving, but the environment we were in was like so intimidating that like, it made you feel like the smallest person on the planet, you know, like feeling like you're so fragile in an environment like that, like, I think anyone would want to crawl into a steam vent and hide from them, from the weather where

00:49:13:05 - 00:49:13:20
Kyle
Yeah.

00:49:13:20 - 00:49:16:10
Kyle
Isn't there like, aren't there toxins in those too?

00:49:16:12 - 00:49:17:11
Kyle
Isn't that a thing?

00:49:17:13 - 00:49:18:03
Justin
Yeah.

00:49:18:06 - 00:49:22:00
Justin
It's maybe, you know, there could be sulfurous problems too.

00:49:22:03 - 00:49:23:11
Justin
But it still sounded better than

00:49:24:27 - 00:49:26:27
Kyle
Yeah, anything but what we're going through right now.

00:49:26:28 - 00:49:28:02
Kyle
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

00:49:28:05 - 00:49:38:12
Kyle
That's wild man. Other than giving yourself more of a buffer for storm fronts, was there any other, like, takeaway from that,

00:49:40:20 - 00:50:01:16
Justin
I don't know. Part of me was, like, disappointed that we were in such a dangerous situation. You know, being on the summit and 60 mile an hour blizzard without enough clothes. If to survive, if we had to stop for whatever reason. But certainly the other part of me was, like, a little bit proud of how the day went.

00:50:01:18 - 00:50:34:28
Justin
You know, we like, went car to car on Liberty Ridge and broke trail up to our waist for like half throughout. And when things got really bad, I felt like we made the best decisions we, we could. So I definitely came away with, man, like, I really don't want to be in that situation again, but I think I also came away with some confidence of man, like we were in a really bad situation and like we handled it as well as we could and got down safely.

00:50:34:28 - 00:50:52:12
Justin
Not because it was easy, but because we were strong enough and like strong willed enough to like, continue moving and like get out of the the bad situation where like, I don't know, it wasn't a good option, but there was an option to to give up.

00:50:52:12 - 00:51:05:15
Kyle
Yeah. And with the kind of pursuits that you're going after, it's like something like that happening again is almost inevitable. And so it's like you prove to yourself that, like, okay, like I can trust myself to make right decisions. And in situations that are pretty bleak.

00:51:05:23 - 00:51:07:14
Justin
Yeah. I trust weather forecast less.

00:51:07:14 - 00:51:08:27
Kyle
so.

00:51:08:28 - 00:51:09:23
Kyle
Yeah. That's fair

00:51:09:23 - 00:51:10:10
Justin
definitely

00:51:10:23 - 00:51:12:24
Justin
it's definitely something.

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00:52:13:29 - 00:52:15:01
Kyle
what about,

00:52:15:03 - 00:52:26:13
Kyle
Rainier and, that that kind of close call that you almost, reflected on after the fact? Yeah. Like, what was that? What was that situation like?

00:52:26:17 - 00:52:37:26
Justin
Yeah. I hadn't thought about the the rock fall on Rainier in a few years, but a client of mine reposted his his GoPro footage of the event, and

00:52:37:26 - 00:52:38:21
Kyle
pretty recently.

00:52:38:21 - 00:52:39:03
Kyle
Right.

00:52:39:03 - 00:52:40:25
Justin
Yeah, like last, last week, he

00:52:40:25 - 00:52:41:00
Kyle
I.

00:52:41:00 - 00:52:42:08
Kyle
Think I saw it. Yeah.

00:52:42:08 - 00:52:50:23
Justin
and I thought I, you know, I was fully over that. But when I saw it, I actually was like. And that was a pretty scary moment.

00:52:51:14 - 00:53:05:24
Kyle
I think I want to try this for one. So, like a Joe Rogan style. Like, if I had an editor right here, I'd be like, put it up on the screen, like, let's watch it. So, like, I guess if anybody's watching this, like, I'll put it up on the screen or something like that so you can see it in the corner so you can know what we're talking about.

00:53:06:02 - 00:53:19:12
Speaker 1
Run run run run run run. Go go go go go. Look look look look it up for us.

00:53:19:15 - 00:53:22:03
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. Scary shit. Yeah! Holy

00:53:22:03 - 00:53:46:17
Justin
Yeah. But essentially we were descending, after climbing the if you're, if you're out on Rainier, which is, you know, a bit more of an advanced route. And I was guiding with, another guy too. Good, good friend of mine. And the standard route on Rainier is what we were descending. And at the time, the standard route went underneath these, like, big ice racks.

00:53:46:19 - 00:54:09:22
Justin
And we actually didn't like where the route went because it cut directly under the ice tracks. And we were like, man, like, those are big and scary. And if we go right under him, we won't have any reaction time. If they if they come off and, you know, they rarely go, but they're big. And they'd been active in the last month, I think they'd calved once or twice in the last in the last month.

00:54:09:25 - 00:54:42:01
Justin
So we descend like away from the tracks in the fall line. But eventually we needed to cut underneath these tracks to get back to the the camp. And it was just the worst timing of all time, right? As we were like in the center of the fall line of these tracks, we just hear the scariest, like, come and like immediately look up and a full like four storey apartment size ice block is just like in slow motion, like teetering towards us.

00:54:42:03 - 00:55:00:03
Justin
Fortunately, it was like 1000ft above us because we had descended so far and given ourself a little more buffer. But it still was not a happy situation. You know, my team, like in the video, I'm like yelling like like.

00:55:00:03 - 00:55:01:13
Justin
Move, move, move.

00:55:01:13 - 00:55:26:02
Justin
Run, run. And we ran back away from the path. And then my, my friend, the guide, he was running, they were like a little bit past half way. So they ran the other way. And yeah, this ice block fell down, broke into a bunch of pieces. And now there's a much like, Volkswagen sized cars, like, ripping down towards us, you know, 30, 40 miles an hour.

00:55:26:04 - 00:55:48:09
Justin
We got out of the way of the main path. You know, where we were standing got basically totally destroyed by debris. But the way the ice comes, it it comes down, and then it kind of spreads out. So I remember, like, we ran as far as we could, and then once the ice blocks got close, I told everybody, look up, look up, look up.

00:55:48:11 - 00:56:09:08
Justin
And we all, like, looked at the ice blocks and then made, like, last minute adjustments to essentially dodge. And yeah, Mount Rainier is a dangerous mountain. I don't, you know, misguiding on there is as much as I did. And yeah, I remember, like a Volkswagen sized track, like, came between my client and I on the road.

00:56:09:09 - 00:56:12:05
Justin
You know, there's maybe 30 or 40ft between us

00:56:12:05 - 00:56:16:27
Kyle
This is after you dodge the big one and after the fans split out, and you guys are all trying to, like, dodge stuff.

00:56:16:28 - 00:56:17:10
Kyle
Yeah, there's.

00:56:17:10 - 00:56:17:14
Kyle
Just

00:56:17:14 - 00:56:38:05
Justin
these, like, pinwheels coming down, and, And, yeah, it, like, came between us, and we were okay. It just, like, bounced over our rope and and kept going. But I was very aware that, you know, we handled it as, as well as we, we could, but it was a very close call, you know, like a 1 in 1000 chance.

00:56:38:05 - 00:57:05:06
Justin
That track blew right as we walked underneath it. But yeah, watching that video again, it still kind of bothered me. And yeah, my friend, the other guide, he doesn't guide anymore. He he like, never guided again after that day because it was such a close scary call. And yeah, all the clients on that trip, they still, like, reach out to me and we have a little a little trauma bonding, for sure.

00:57:05:09 - 00:57:19:18
Justin
Yeah. The guy who posted the video. Dallas. Yeah. He he came climbing with my my guide service this past summer. And. Yeah, on a not a close call. I'd, I'd like to have yet,

00:57:20:06 - 00:57:42:17
Kyle
Why didn't it again like this situation where like you, you weren't in panic mode at the top of the mountain of everybody. Oh, not everybody. A lot of people on that day were trauma. And like your one friend stopped guiding. Why do you. Why did you stay? Like, why? Why are you still a guide? Why like while you still recognize that it is.

00:57:42:19 - 00:57:51:03
Kyle
It was such a dangerous situation. Like what about guiding and climbing and stuff? Are still keeping you here doing it?

00:57:51:05 - 00:57:52:13
Justin
Yeah, I don't know.

00:57:52:15 - 00:57:54:07
Justin
There's there's nothing that.

00:57:54:09 - 00:58:17:12
Justin
That, like, fills my car up, like like climbing does. And then as, as a as a job. You know, I still think God has the best job on the planet, you know, definitely in part because I, I like climbing, I like being outside. But I think the bigger thing is, is, you know, like, we were talking about when we first started climbing, we were such gummies and making so many mistakes.

00:58:17:12 - 00:58:32:20
Justin
So I think in part because of that, I get a lot of joy out of like helping people go from Gumby to like, competent climber and and yeah, I think that's I can I couldn't let it go even, even if I wanted to.

00:58:32:22 - 00:58:33:01
Justin
I don't

00:58:33:04 - 00:58:37:22
Kyle
Have you like thought about death in the mountains.

00:58:38:05 - 00:58:38:23
Justin
Yeah.

00:58:38:25 - 00:58:39:15
Justin
I have,

00:58:39:15 - 00:58:43:20
Kyle
how how have you like processed like the.

00:58:43:22 - 00:59:06:01
Kyle
The reality of like, I don't know, like we all I mean, even today. Like what? What we did like obviously I was on top of all day, but like, you know, there's like some healthy run outs, like some unpredictable ice, like, I mean, these are small potatoes compared to, like, Rainier serac fall and like other objective hazards that you're in, like, you know, it's we do everything we can to not perish in the mountains.

00:59:06:01 - 00:59:39:22
Kyle
But as we choose more and more, challenging and challenging objectives with, with more and more chaos, more like risk that is harder to mitigate. I feel like there's almost like this there's this, this grapple that we have to have with our own mortality. Like, you know, like we do everything our cannot to die. But there's this there's this sense that, like, it could happen, like, how have you, like, processed that portion of, like, the reality of what you put yourself in?

00:59:40:06 - 01:00:07:18
Justin
Yeah. I think what forced me to process it was having a lot of my early, like, climbing idols, you know, die, die in the mountains. Like David Lama. Brad Gove. Right? You know, Mark Andre LeClaire, like, a lot of these, like, really talented climbers who were no doubt taking a lot of risk in the climbing.

01:00:07:18 - 01:00:24:20
Justin
They were doing, you know, doing big solo climbs, technical climbs, high altitude climbs. And at the end of the day, I like, looked at that and I was like, damn well like, how did they die? Like, I really don't want to die at all. And, you know, these climbers I looked up to who I thought were great climbers.

01:00:24:20 - 01:01:06:05
Justin
They were great climbers, perished in the mountains. And I looked at the trends of of how they died. And yeah, it came down to rappelling and avalanches. And that's not to say like, you know, I couldn't have died taking, a lead fall today, you know, that's that's possible. But what I like about technical climbing is that you do have at least like, your ability and your movement to not fall off in your, in your control, whereas, you know, with avalanche hazard, like, you're just choosing to take that risk, you know, you go out onto a slope that, you know, maybe has a 10% or a 5% or a 1% chance of, of

01:01:06:05 - 01:01:29:07
Justin
sliding. And for me, those objective hazards, like, I'll take pretty much zero risk if there's any chance of an avalanche. So to me, it's it's not worth it because I don't want to die in the mountains. And then on the technical climbing side, man, no doubt I really do love ice and mixed climbing, and it's it's not that safe.

01:01:29:10 - 01:01:49:26
Justin
So I think the biggest thing to keep me alive, there's just ego, you know, like, not climb something that I, you know, that I'm not ready for. But it seems so cool. And I would be the coolest if I climbed that pitch. You know, it's like, stay within within abilities for for the more dangerous climbing styles like rad and I,

01:01:49:26 - 01:01:50:13
Kyle
ice and.

01:01:51:08 - 01:01:56:15
Kyle
Other than, like.

01:01:57:15 - 01:02:05:18
Kyle
Other than just the fact that like, rappelling is inherently dangerous and I think statistically is like the way that most climbers die, I'm pretty sure that's.

01:02:05:18 - 01:02:06:05
Kyle
True, right?

01:02:06:10 - 01:02:07:22
Kyle
Yeah. Like.

01:02:07:24 - 01:02:29:18
Kyle
Other than making, like, critical mistakes like today, like, let's say I, I chose to, you know, repel into the, the shitty static line that we had instead of our other line. And I just, like, took my iPad and like, I could kill myself that way, like, but but super experienced climbers aren't going to do that, so, like how our experienced climbers die in rappelling in the mountains.

01:02:30:26 - 01:02:35:11
Justin
Good question. I, I haven't talked to any of them who have.

01:02:35:13 - 01:02:36:15
Justin
But I.

01:02:36:15 - 01:03:03:09
Justin
Can share I guess my, my tendencies, I try to, to have that I hope will prevent that from happening to me. And I think it's, you know like low ego not applying your risk tolerance for technical climbing to rappelling, you know, so, like, let's say you're a great soloist and you're willing to, to solo a really hard route.

01:03:03:11 - 01:03:20:24
Justin
And so you have a pretty high risk tolerance with your ability to solo climb. But if you apply that risk tolerance to rappelling, which equates to not tying knots in the end of your rope, for example, you're like, oh, it's just a knot at the end of the rope. I won't forget about it. That's only a tiny little bit of extra risk.

01:03:20:26 - 01:03:41:01
Justin
But in my mind, that's like an unacceptable system failure. Like, I always tie a knot in the end of the rope. Not because I'm not talented enough to repel and not go off the end, but because it is such a such a common way to die. Because it's such an easy thing to forget. You repel too fast and and boom, you're off the end.

01:03:41:03 - 01:04:03:21
Justin
I think being disciplined with your systems and not getting lazy with them. And then the other thing is communication. You know, even with with clients who maybe don't know that much about technical systems, I still verbalize each and every like safety item. Like before I take a partner or a client off belay, I say, you're closed, pitched in here, you're locked, I'm taking off belay.

01:04:03:23 - 01:04:21:11
Justin
And I think the verbalization like helps with accountability. Back and forth. So that's my favorite habit for technical systems is a verbal confirmation with your partner before any critical safety system gets changed over.

01:04:21:24 - 01:04:22:24
Kyle
Hopefully that'll keep me alive.

01:04:23:00 - 01:04:41:23
Kyle
So I mean it seems like there's not some sort of you know, being silly here I guess, but there's not some sort of like evil spirit or whatever that kills people repelling. It's like literally just a system failure because you miss something. Yeah. That's it really. Right. It's like it's human error. It's. And the issue is repelling is that there's no redundancy.

01:04:41:28 - 01:04:52:23
Kyle
Right? It's like you're attached to a single point on the wall and it's like your rope gets cut or you don't tie in correctly or you slip off the end. It's like there's no room for error. It's like, that's it, it's over.

01:04:52:23 - 01:04:53:18
Justin
Totally.

01:04:53:21 - 01:05:13:19
Justin
But I think the knots in the end is the most common rappelling death. And that one is redundancy that you have to choose to put in, you know like the rope flies past. Are you going to pull it up and tie the knot or are you going to be like, I know how to repel? Like it'll be fun.

01:05:13:22 - 01:05:25:12
Justin
Yeah. If I visually see my rope on the ground, I'll say, and I'll confirm with my partner like I see the rope on the ground. We don't need to tie the knot, but even then, sometimes I pull it out to tie it. Just

01:05:25:17 - 01:05:26:13
Kyle
Out of principle.

01:05:26:13 - 01:05:28:05
Kyle
Yeah, yeah.

01:05:28:05 - 01:05:30:07
Justin
like I want to live a long time.

01:05:30:07 - 01:05:49:17
Kyle
Do you feel like avalanches are 100% avoidable, or are they? Or is there always some sort of randomness to them? Yeah. Because you said like 1%, 5%, 10% I won't go. I only go if it's 0%. Is there such thing as 0% avalanche risk?

01:05:49:21 - 01:06:15:14
Justin
You know, 0% of avalanche risk is staying home and sitting on your couch when there's avalanche hazard, right? That's your only 0% chance. But, you know, it's tempting to ski that really fun avalanche path and powder after the storm, and people will convince themselves that, you know. Oh, the avalanche hazard isn't isn't that bad or, you know, it is only 1% today kind of thing.

01:06:15:16 - 01:06:27:23
Justin
So it's a gray area for sure. But people exist within a lot of different parts of the spectrum of the gray area. And I try to exist on the far end of the gray area

01:06:27:23 - 01:06:32:23
Kyle
You're like, of all the risks that I'm going to take, that is an area where I'm going to be the most restrictive.

01:06:33:01 - 01:06:37:28
Justin
Exactly. And the, the most conservative avalanche.

01:06:37:28 - 01:06:49:14
Kyle
yeah. Because it's like there's again, like with rappelling, there's not a lot of room for error. It's like we have, we have like those airbags and like beacons and stuff. But it's not it's not a good outcome regardless.

01:06:49:24 - 01:07:18:24
Justin
Yeah. I mean, most avalanche deaths happen from trauma, you know? So even if your friends can dig you up, if you hit a tree when you got avalanche down, like it's still not not going to be a good a good outcome. So, yeah, I think applying a really low risk tolerance to avalanches is a is a key to survival in the mountains, which means a lot of days where maybe conditions are good to climb.

01:07:19:00 - 01:07:30:20
Justin
Like, you know, I won't go climb that big, gnarly alpine route that day. And I'll wait till next year when the conditions are better. And that can be hard to do, you know, especially when other people are

01:07:30:20 - 01:07:31:01
Kyle
going out.

01:07:31:02 - 01:07:32:09
Kyle
Yeah, yeah. Feel like we're.

01:07:32:09 - 01:07:32:25
Kyle
Going out for.

01:07:32:25 - 01:07:35:01
Kyle
Like, says 5% in.

01:07:35:01 - 01:07:55:12
Kyle
So what about like, avalanche hazard for skiing, snowboarding, snowsports backcountry versus like backcountry ice climbing? I would my guess is that there's more death skiing in the backcountry. Avalanches. Is that because more people are doing it? Or because that terrain is inherently more dangerous than ice climbs with avalanche terrain?

01:07:55:15 - 01:08:26:27
Justin
Yeah. Good question. Ice climbers definitely can have bad avalanche hazard as well, but pretty much every good skier on is an avalanche terrain. You know, like the ideal slope to ski is 35 degrees. And the ideal slope is also open, you know, and that slope is open probably because it's an avalanche path. So there's more deaths in skiing to avalanche hazard.

01:08:26:29 - 01:08:49:06
Justin
But then on the mountaineering front, too, like a skier, they can move quickly, you know, so if a small slide happens, they maybe can ski out of it. Whereas in mountaineering we're on our own two feet most of the time climbing up into the avalanche terrain. And especially if you're on a big mountain with a glacier, there's also crevasses.

01:08:49:09 - 01:09:16:12
Justin
So even a very small avalanche in mountaineering is often fatal, right? Like if a small avalanche, you know, slides you 20ft into a crevasse. Now you've taken a 200ft cross fall that didn't feel good, and now you're buried in snow. So yeah, I think in the mountaineering world, we, we avoid avalanches even more aggressively. And then backcountry skiing is the goal of that country.

01:09:16:12 - 01:09:27:13
Justin
Skiing is to ski that fun powder slope. So generally people are skiing in avalanche terrain more than people are mountaineering.

01:09:27:19 - 01:09:45:13
Kyle
In avalanche terrain. And so like if you are going to choose a ice climb or a mountaineering objective that is known to have avalanches on it, it's just your job to go during the conditions where avalanches are basically not going to happen.

01:09:45:13 - 01:09:46:05
Justin
Totally.

01:09:46:07 - 01:10:05:29
Justin
Yeah. And, you know, in the summer, you know, come July in Washington, you know, the the glaciers are no longer having avalanche hazard. But in May when there's big storms, there's still avalanche hazard. And then out here in Colorado, right. Like you can only ice climb in the winter and generally in the winter there is avalanche hazard. But it's weather dependent.

01:10:05:29 - 01:10:29:01
Justin
You know, like right now we're here climbing in your A and it hasn't snowed in three weeks. It's pretty bare around here. So if you look on the Colorado, you know, Avalanche Information Center website, the avalanche hazard is low. And, you know, I felt very comfortable going to do the climb that we did today, even though, like, we went up an avalanche path.

01:10:29:01 - 01:10:33:28
Justin
Right. And like, our approach was fully up an avalanche path, but it was like half rock.

01:10:33:28 - 01:10:36:09
Justin
Half snow because the snow is so.

01:10:36:09 - 01:10:50:28
Kyle
now if we had gotten if we get a storm that lasts like three days and it's a heavy snow, then it would be high avalanche terrain, right? Because like all that snow, that's been here baking under the sun is like creating this ice crust. And like, we've just got this super unstable layer on the bottom now.

01:10:51:07 - 01:10:55:01
Justin
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. If it snowed three feet, we would not be going to

01:10:55:01 - 01:10:55:25
Kyle
call.

01:10:55:25 - 01:10:58:18
Justin
I suppose tomorrow I will be going to the ice.

01:10:58:18 - 01:11:00:07
Justin
Park or somewhere safe, you know.

01:11:00:07 - 01:11:00:25
Kyle
Yeah.

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01:11:56:22 - 01:12:10:06
Kyle
So like we've talked about, your time as a guide, but kind of a recent advancement recently in the last year that you've started your own company, Skyline Mountain Guides, right?

01:12:10:08 - 01:12:11:09
Kyle
Yeah, yeah.

01:12:11:11 - 01:12:17:15
Kyle
So, you're 28, right? 28. You've been running your own guide company for about a year and a half.

01:12:17:22 - 01:12:21:09
Kyle
Right. Good timeline. Like.

01:12:21:11 - 01:12:27:16
Kyle
Walk me through the decision to start that, like, what was the moment you said, like, I don't know, fuck it. I'm going to do it myself.

01:12:27:16 - 01:12:29:02
Justin
Yeah.

01:12:29:05 - 01:13:01:23
Justin
Yeah, I mean, I, I had like, an amazing, you know, group of clients that I've been climbing with year, year after year that were climbing, you know, exclusive with me becoming friends. And then, you know, working within a guide service, I think it's, it's common for people to be like, oh, man. Like, I would love to do things differently, you know, and, and be able to provide the exact, like, product and experience that I want to, like, share with these people.

01:13:01:26 - 01:13:30:04
Justin
So I think you know that along with just making a long career out of guiding, we're kind of the two motivating factors to start my own company, you know, feeling like I could, you know, maybe do it a little bit better, and then also being like, hey, you know, like if I just guide for another company, for my whole career, I'll work 200 days in the field, which makes it really hard to train for personal climbs.

01:13:30:06 - 01:13:59:07
Justin
Whereas if I can, you know, start my own business, you know, I could probably guide, you know, 100 or 150 years in the field, have some more time back to myself, to personal climb and then, you know, also, like, selfishly, like, I think it'd be really, like, fulfilling to be able to, like, provide this like ideal experience and journey for people to like a larger group, you know, like I think it's pretty exciting to.

01:13:59:09 - 01:13:59:16
Justin
Like.

01:13:59:23 - 01:14:08:04
Justin
Have other guides like, work with me and, like them provide that same like amazing experience to more and more people.

01:14:08:23 - 01:14:11:03
Kyle
What would you describe as the ideal experience?

01:14:11:03 - 01:14:33:12
Justin
Yeah, I think, I guess we touched on it a little earlier, but really meeting people where they're at, you know, I think it's pretty common. And, you know, the guiding industry or any industry to have like these, you know, super profitable trips and basically like push those kind of on to everybody and like, that's what you're going to sell because that's where you kind of make your money.

01:14:33:14 - 01:14:57:10
Justin
And our approach is much more like you reach out to us, we have this like, you know, mountain consultation where we just have like a free phone call or we like, give people advice. They tell us their experiences, what they want to do, and then rather just like selling them on or like, took each other high profit trip we like really try to like what is going to be like the best trip, the best experience for this person.

01:14:57:10 - 01:15:17:24
Justin
Because like you said earlier, some people come with like a mountaineering focus in mind. Some people just want to like learn how to trad climb so they can go do that themselves and have big adventures. And I think it's been really enjoyable to. Yeah, like try to help people on their journey, like whatever it may be. Right?

01:15:17:24 - 01:15:18:08
Kyle
That's cool.

01:15:18:16 - 01:15:37:15
Kyle
I think that's part of the guiding experience that I wish I knew more earlier on, because I definitely I feel like you think of guiding and you think of, like, these, cookie cutter things, like these cookie cutter trips. You're like, have to choose it. But, I think it's so cool that you could, like, approach a guide and be like, hey, I've got this objective, I've got this thing I want to learn.

01:15:37:15 - 01:15:54:05
Kyle
Like I'm trying to learn how to, I don't know, advanced techniques or whatever, and like to feel comfortable enough and curtailed to enough to, like, come to a guide service like you and just be like, hey, like, I have this super specific thing in mind and you're like, yeah, let's fucking do it. Like, let's go after it and let's make it the best experience possible.

01:15:54:05 - 01:15:54:28
Kyle
Yeah, I

01:15:54:28 - 01:16:15:19
Justin
remember last summer some like really talented climber came to me and he was like hey man, I'm going to the Alaska Range next year. And I really want to learn how to safely like belay across big runs and figure out the transition from going on a glacier to climbing through a big shunt and then getting into technical terrain.

01:16:15:21 - 01:16:20:07
Justin
The most specific question you could ever get asked, you know.

01:16:20:09 - 01:16:38:14
Justin
But it was really fun to, like, talk with him about that, you know, develop a lesson plan around the different techniques that we could use. There. And then we went up, you know, on Mount Hood together and found some, like, big trendy style crevasses and like, practiced all the different techniques. But that's like not a common question.

01:16:38:14 - 01:16:39:03
Justin
You're never going.

01:16:39:03 - 01:16:40:23
Justin
To find a course that's like

01:16:40:23 - 01:16:44:11
Kyle
Yeah, Birch and Larsen. Yeah. It was really

01:16:44:11 - 01:16:45:27
Justin
fun to be able to you like.

01:16:46:04 - 01:16:47:29
Justin
Help that person with their their goal.

01:16:47:29 - 01:17:11:09
Kyle
I'm sure it also helps you and your guides have a more diversified experience, because I would imagine doing the same fucking route 100 times a year or whatever it is. It's just soul crushing. And so to to have this like diversified intake process where you have all these other people's goals come to you, I would see that as almost more advantageous as a guide.

01:17:11:09 - 01:17:20:04
Kyle
I'd be like, cool, I get to do all this other stuff. Like I get to learn what people are doing instead of like, here's the box, get in the box. Like, you know, like you've probably become pretty crusty after that. After a.

01:17:20:04 - 01:17:20:15
Kyle
While.

01:17:20:21 - 01:17:44:16
Justin
Yeah. For sure. I, I definitely have to think a lot more, you know? And it's maybe more, more work to, like, figure out all these different, you know, lesson plans and that kind of thing. But yeah, I definitely enjoy it too. Like doing the standard rinse and repeat on Rainier 30 times a summer. Like I still enjoyed it, but I could see, like, I don't know if I'd still enjoy this in five years kind of thing.

01:17:44:22 - 01:17:44:29
Justin
You know?

01:17:45:04 - 01:18:14:04
Kyle
So there's like the as a climber, you're responsible for your life and your partner's life. Then as a guide, you're responsible for your life. And like your clients, who is usually less experienced in yours. Now, it's like you have multiple guides on your roster that are handling this, like intake that you have, have you felt like the any sort of weight of responsibility of like now it's like your company, you're organizing these things, like you're passing these jobs along to other people.

01:18:14:07 - 01:18:26:26
Kyle
I would feel like there's like this, I don't know, a sense of responsibility of like, you know, there's there's people's lives under, like your guidance now. Like, have you felt that before, like that, that kind of responsibility and, like, how have you kind of held on to that?

01:18:27:05 - 01:18:47:21
Justin
Yeah. A lot. I mean, I'm, I'm definitely, a people person, and I like, really value, like, all the friendships I have. And I'm fortunate that a lot of the guys that work with me, I've guided with before, and they're my, my close friends. So, yeah, I feel an immense sense of responsibility to like, I don't know, across the spectrum.

01:18:47:21 - 01:19:07:16
Justin
It's like being a really good boss and employer to them, you know, giving them like a job that they, they enjoy and they love. And like you said, the diverse trips, like people do enjoy. So I'm excited there. And then, yeah, the responsibility of the guide staying safe and the clients staying safe as well is is super important.

01:19:07:16 - 01:19:26:24
Justin
So yeah, like, you know, having the right trainings in place and really like hiring the right guides, you know, guides who do have like safety at front of mind and do you have this like same mentality that I have of like meeting people where they're at. You know, I think a lot of people have run into crusty.

01:19:26:24 - 01:19:28:29
Justin
Guides here and there. You know, who.

01:19:28:29 - 01:19:48:27
Justin
Are burnt out and not as nice or, you know, empathetic as as they, they could be. So, yeah, I think it has been a big jump and responsibility when it was just me with the company, I was like, sweet. Like, I'll do my I'll do my best. I'll be safe. I know it's just me that needs to be safe.

01:19:48:27 - 01:20:03:02
Justin
And the company feels like that's on me, you know? But now that I have people working for me, I definitely feel a lot more pressure of, man, this needs to be, like, perfect for for the employees, for the clients and and

01:20:03:02 - 01:20:04:21
Kyle
yeah, yeah, it's a lot.

01:20:04:23 - 01:20:19:06
Kyle
What is the the guide selection process look like for you. Like are there you mentioned a little bit but like what are there is there a particular process. Is it vibes. Is it like or there's there a questionnaire or is it based on like network like how are you how are you choosing the guys that are on your team?

01:20:19:09 - 01:20:47:09
Justin
Yeah. Fortunately I like no, I like it a lot of the people in the, in the guiding industry and have worked with them in a professional climbing context and or personal climbed with them. And right now the company is still small enough that, you know, we only have maybe 7 or 8 guides on the roster, all of which I've personally climbed or guided with, or mostly both.

01:20:47:12 - 01:21:13:16
Justin
So yeah, all of the guides at this point are still people that I personally know and have climbed with. So feel like very comfortable with, like their experience, their certifications, their like climbing ability, their demeanor, you know, which I think is often the most important, you know, like ego is probably the most dangerous thing in the mountains, whether you're a recreational climber or, or a guide.

01:21:13:18 - 01:21:20:27
Justin
So yeah, right now it's all based on like, yeah, people that I know personally and professionally are working with me.

01:21:20:27 - 01:21:34:28
Kyle
That's cool. It's nice that it's like close to home still. Yeah, I'm sure as, like, as scalability comes in and like, he's starting to have to, like, interview people and like, it's gets messy pretty quick.

01:21:35:00 - 01:21:36:07
Kyle
This term.

01:21:36:09 - 01:21:54:29
Kyle
Crusty. We've brought it up a lot this trip. It's like the, I think the first time I've actually, like, heard it used in this context. I've heard, like a curmudgeon. I've heard like that, like, without like, we don't need to get, like, two pointing the fingers or anything, but, like, describe what a crusty climber is to you.

01:21:55:07 - 01:21:58:25
Justin
Okay. To to me and I think you could have a lot of different definitions.

01:21:58:27 - 01:22:00:23
Justin
But, to me,

01:22:00:25 - 01:22:27:22
Justin
A crusty climber is someone who's been climbing for a long time. They're set in their ways. They think they're better than whoever else is climbing around them, and they generally, like, look down on inexperienced or newer climbers. And I think it's because they've lost sight of when they first started climbing, you know, everybody was a Gumby at some point.

01:22:27:24 - 01:22:35:20
Justin
And the second you forget that you were ever a Gumby and you just think you've, like, always known how to do things right, you've become

01:22:35:20 - 01:22:38:07
Kyle
crusty. That's good.

01:22:38:07 - 01:22:48:02
Kyle
I like that. Yeah. It's like the. It's that forgetting. Who were you forgetting your roots. Forgetting where you come from and forgetting that empathy of like you were that person at some point.

01:22:48:04 - 01:22:48:14
Kyle
Yeah.

01:22:48:19 - 01:23:12:20
Kyle
And yeah, the the lack of adaptation to like new, better methods of safety. Like, it's probably going to be like, at least for you. Like, you're in the industry, you're at the pinnacle, like you guys are required in a way to like, be at the pinnacle of the sport, but like, it'll be something that I have to watch out for, too, because, I mean, I've talked to I just interviewed David and like, he's got he's set in his ways.

01:23:12:20 - 01:23:35:12
Kyle
Like, you know, he's very, you know and for him his, his, justification for his things is, is familiarity. Right. It's like I've been doing it forever and it's worked up to this point. So why change? And I get that, you know, it's like and that's why I like usually I'm pretty mandatory about like a Gregory. But with him like, just using ATC man, I it's fine.

01:23:35:12 - 01:23:51:14
Kyle
Like, I'm not going to force you to use this widget that you're, like, not comfortable with, and I'm going to get short roped or whatever. So there's like there's a time and place for everything. But yeah, I hope to to continue to like advance with the sport and like, not get crusty.

01:23:51:17 - 01:23:53:25
Kyle
Yeah. Totally.

01:23:53:28 - 01:24:00:19
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01:24:38:21 - 01:24:39:10
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Today.

01:24:39:10 - 01:24:59:24
Kyle
Cool, man. So you're, you know, this is kind of like, this is like the last topic I have here, but you're you're like, big objective, Everest for that oxygen. Let's dive into that. So. Yeah. Guys, when did you decide when did you decide Everest without oxygen was a goal that you wanted to go for?

01:24:59:29 - 01:25:00:26
Justin
Yeah.

01:25:00:28 - 01:25:04:00
Justin
I mean, like we talked about, I came to mountaineering from.

01:25:04:00 - 01:25:08:14
Justin
The the most hill walking, snow climbing of ways.

01:25:08:16 - 01:25:46:04
Justin
So even though now I love technical climbing and technical mountains, there's definitely still a part of me that just loves, like the human battle with high altitude where humans shouldn't exist. So it's always been a goal of mine to try to do any thousand meter peak without oxygen just because. Yeah, I'm really excited to see physiologically. Like if I can train hard enough, if I can acclimatize well enough, if I can do everything right, you know, because I do think over the course of an expedition, you know, it's like, were you hydrated every day?

01:25:46:04 - 01:26:07:03
Justin
Did you stay on top of your eating? You know, it's it's it's like big game of chess. Really. So yeah, it's it's been a goal of mine for a long time and I just. Yeah, I love that that chess game and that physical like challenge and, and no doubt suffering that's involved with, with high altitude climbing,

01:26:07:20 - 01:26:08:13
Kyle
Why?

01:26:08:13 - 01:26:09:26
Kyle
Without oxygen.

01:26:10:16 - 01:26:12:04
Justin
Yeah.

01:26:12:07 - 01:26:13:24
Kyle
This is your first time on Everest, right?

01:26:13:26 - 01:26:15:14
Justin
This will be my first time on Everest.

01:26:15:14 - 01:26:27:06
Kyle
So. Yeah. What about, like, that particular portion of it? Like. Okay, first time I'll do it with oxygen. This is like, you're just like, no, first time purity. Like, this is how I'm going to do it.

01:26:27:06 - 01:26:28:05
Justin
Yeah.

01:26:28:07 - 01:27:01:28
Justin
I think for me, it's like, you know, I'm a big dreamer, and I love, you know, uncertainty and and challenges. And I think if I did Everest with oxygen, I'd feel pretty confident that I'd be able to, to do it. Like, there wouldn't be as much uncertainty. Just because with, like, a full oxygen flow rate, you know, your perceived altitude is probably closer to, like, high 6000, low 7000m.

01:27:01:28 - 01:27:06:15
Justin
And I've climbed up to, like, 6800 and 900m,

01:27:06:15 - 01:27:17:23
Justin
on Amanda Blom, which has, you know, steeper, more technical terrain. And we did a big summit day. We did around eight, 8000ft of elevation gain to the top.

01:27:17:26 - 01:27:44:00
Justin
So yeah, I think, the. Yeah, just for me, it's totally the curiosity and excitement of seeing if my body is, is capable of that. And yeah, the fact that I haven't been there before and haven't climbed it with oxygen before just makes it like that much more exciting for me to just, you know, go and and do my best and apply everything I've learned and try to make

01:27:44:06 - 01:27:51:06
Kyle
Do you have like oxygen as a backup or are you willing to fail the objective if oxygen is the problem.

01:27:51:19 - 01:28:21:10
Justin
Yeah. Good. Good question. We we're going to have one bottle of oxygen each as a backup. One Sherpa is going to be climbing with us carrying that emergency oxygen, and the Sherpa will be climbing on oxygen. So they'll have, like, the extra boost of of strength from that. And it's really emergency oxygen, you know, like one small bottle of oxygen will be enough to, like, get us down safely.

01:28:21:13 - 01:28:31:11
Justin
But one small bottle of oxygen would not be enough to, like, fully climb, you know, with oxygen on Summit Day at any sort of high flow rate.

01:28:31:11 - 01:28:32:15
Kyle
got it.

01:28:32:18 - 01:28:37:24
Kyle
So it's there as an emergency backup, not a like. Oh, okay. We didn't make it. Let's just turn on the oxygen.

01:28:38:00 - 01:28:57:21
Justin
Yeah. Totally. I mean, I think part of me is like, man, it'd be so pure to climb without any backup oxygen and just go with everybody. But the reality is, there's a lot of risk there, you know, and there's a lot of things that can go wrong at altitude. And oxygen affects those things. If they go wrong, you know, we'll be acclimatized really high.

01:28:57:21 - 01:29:06:12
Justin
So if we put on oxygen, we're going to feel like a lot, lot better to be able to move down much more safely. So.

01:29:06:16 - 01:29:19:09
Kyle
Have you looked at the different like statistics of success rate and risk increase of with and without oxygen like, like is there actual numbers of the two, the two groups?

01:29:20:09 - 01:29:36:01
Justin
Yeah. There there are the success rate is very low. I think right now 13 Americans have successfully climbed without oxygen. How many have tried? I don't I don't know because the statistics only go with success.

01:29:36:24 - 01:29:36:28
Kyle
And.

01:29:36:28 - 01:29:38:16
Justin
don't say like oh well they tried

01:29:38:16 - 01:29:39:24
Kyle
Yeah. Okay.

01:29:39:26 - 01:29:41:10
Kyle
So. Well only 13.

01:29:41:10 - 01:29:41:25
Justin
yeah.

01:29:41:25 - 01:29:45:16
Kyle
So you and your partner will be 1415 hopefully.

01:29:45:20 - 01:29:47:03
Kyle
Wow. That's cool.

01:29:47:10 - 01:30:17:27
Justin
Yeah. No I'm I'm really excited for it. And then I think the other statistics I've heard, are around like, you know, the, the deaths on Everest, people like to have statistics on how many people die. And I think 50% of the deaths have been from oxygen less attempts, which is artificially, not artificially high, but it's proportionately higher.

01:30:17:29 - 01:30:22:26
Justin
Because obviously a lot more people try to climb Everest with oxygen than without.

01:30:22:26 - 01:30:23:04
Kyle
what are.

01:30:23:04 - 01:30:36:23
Kyle
The actual specific circumstances surrounding the trip? Like, who's your partner? What? Like what events have led you here? What is your plan for, like, tackling this? Like what? Like what a give me the context.

01:30:36:23 - 01:31:00:11
Justin
Yeah, totally. So, yeah. I'm climbing. I'm climbing with Ryan Mitchell. He's a good friend of mine, and I have guided him a lot in the past three, three years or so. And it's been so cool to see his progression. You know, basically, we met on Denali. He was getting guided on the Denali trip. And, you know, it's still pretty new to, to climbing at the time.

01:31:00:13 - 01:31:26:08
Justin
And then since then he's, like, moved out to Washington. We now live, like ten minutes apart from each other. And he's totally grown into being like, an an awesome, awesome climber. So now we've kind of morphed into more of like, a mentor relationship instead of kind of like standard client guide. You know, he, he and I did Rainier card a car and like ten hours a couple weeks ago, in the, in the winter.

01:31:26:11 - 01:31:49:27
Justin
So it's been really cool to see his progression. And, yeah, he actually has climbed Everest with oxygen. And he also wants to climb Everest without oxygen. So, yeah, it's it's like this awesome opportunity, for me and him to go and and do this, this climb together. So I'm really excited for it.

01:31:50:13 - 01:31:54:19
Kyle
Does the.

01:31:54:21 - 01:32:18:25
Kyle
Like, other than your passion to, like, do this because you it's the next step in your progression in a way. Like is there something about this objective that, like, I don't know, has like a of, a valor or like, like some sort of like meaning that's beyond just like, oh, yeah, this is my next thing I'm going to do.

01:32:18:25 - 01:32:36:06
Kyle
Like, is there a weight to this objective that you're doing, like, like like, I don't know, like the only thing I can really conflate it to is like, in high school, like cross-country race. Like I'm about to do this, like state championship race. And I'm, like, feeling, like, super nervous and like it means so much to me.

01:32:36:06 - 01:32:40:19
Kyle
Like, is there that kind of weight on this in this trip, or is it kind of just another trip for you?

01:32:40:23 - 01:32:40:28
Kyle
Yeah.

01:32:40:28 - 01:32:42:11
Justin
Yeah. I mean, even as you say that.

01:32:42:11 - 01:32:44:06
Justin
I've got, like, a few, like, butter.

01:32:44:06 - 01:33:10:22
Justin
Butterflies for sure. Yeah. I think I've found in previous mountaineering trips, like, the longer the trip is, the more you put into it, the more you know everything, like, the more meaningful and like, powerful. It is like my first like, that rings a bell of like the first time I did Denali, I like totally cried on the summit because we'd, like us, did our ass for three weeks to, like, lug everything up the mountain and make it to the top.

01:33:10:22 - 01:33:34:15
Justin
Is the most work I'd ever put in any singular mountain. So just knowing that this trip is going to be two and a half months, we're going to do three rotations before we even go for our summit push. We'll have spent like 21 days at least on the mountain acclimatizing and hauling loads. I know that it's going to be like super powerful and emotional experience.

01:33:34:15 - 01:33:51:13
Justin
And I think because of that and all those factors, the time, the energy and the money to, like, go and do that thing. Yeah. I've been training super hard for it, and it definitely feels like, yeah, a bigger deal than, you know, a standard day in the mountains kind of thing.

01:33:51:13 - 01:33:51:25
Kyle
Yeah.

01:33:51:25 - 01:33:56:11
Kyle
What does your training protocol look like? Like how much of a lifestyle change have you had to like,

01:33:56:11 - 01:33:59:26
Kyle
What kind of lifestyle changes have you made in order to prepare for this?

01:33:59:29 - 01:34:01:17
Justin
Yeah.

01:34:01:19 - 01:34:25:29
Justin
Less, less guiding in the months leading up to it so that I have more time to do specific training. And then working with a coach, like, full time, you know, I always asked my my buddy Adam for training advice, but now he's got me on a full schedule through three training peaks. And yeah, it's been pretty high volume.

01:34:25:29 - 01:34:42:21
Justin
You know, like a lot of zone one and zone two cardio building volume towards the objective and then two pretty hard workouts per week as well. And then just trying to balance that with, with work and guiding and, and recovery.

01:34:42:23 - 01:34:43:04
Justin
Yeah.

01:34:43:11 - 01:35:05:26
Justin
So it's been it's been really busy. And I'll be excited when I get back to not like necessarily have a strict training plan. But yeah, I think it's, it's worth, worth it to put in the effort. You know, the the outcome is really uncertain. And the only thing I can control really is like, my fitness and all the logistics preparation.

01:35:05:26 - 01:35:14:18
Justin
So I'm really leaning into that fitness and going to try to show up as indestructible as I can possibly be.

01:35:14:28 - 01:35:43:26
Kyle
You've been like training single minded for so long. Like what happens when that like this goal, the singular focus, this objective is over. Like, have you thought about, like, the other side of the cliff, the other side of the mountain? Like what? It like there's. I talk to a lot of people. There's like post objective depression. There's like, all these kind of fall off emotional experiences that happen after dedicating so much time, both before and during the objective.

01:35:43:26 - 01:35:48:25
Kyle
Like, how are you preparing for that chapter of whether it's successful or not?

01:35:48:29 - 01:35:49:13
Kyle
Oh

01:35:49:13 - 01:35:52:26
Justin
I feel like I'm already already past.

01:35:52:26 - 01:35:53:26
Justin
It in some ways where.

01:35:53:26 - 01:36:13:16
Justin
Like, I'm training so hard for cardio right now. And I love rock and ice climbing and training for that, too. And that's totally taken a backseat the past few months, so I. I don't feel too worried about that. I think the second I get back from Nepal, I'm going to have like, not rock climbed and so on.

01:36:13:19 - 01:36:14:09
Justin
Then I'm just going to.

01:36:14:09 - 01:36:19:07
Justin
Go sport climbing in the sun all summer and it's going to be glorious.

01:36:19:10 - 01:36:39:20
Justin
So yeah, I think knowing that this isn't like my one passion or my one goal in life, though, I'm really motivated and dedicating the time I need to to prepare for it. Like I'm already missing on the other parts of climbing that that Everest doesn't involve. You know, there's not a single pitch of rock climbing on

01:36:39:20 - 01:36:41:24
Kyle
Yeah.

01:36:41:27 - 01:36:45:29
Kyle
Have you mentally prepared for both success and failure?

01:36:46:11 - 01:36:46:29
Justin
I think so.

01:36:47:01 - 01:36:51:23
Kyle
What happens when you succeed? What's next?

01:36:51:25 - 01:36:53:28
Kyle
Ooh. What's next?

01:36:54:06 - 01:37:01:20
Kyle
Yeah. Is is there a next or is it like scaling the business. Like is there or have you reached the pinnacle of your mountaineering childhood dreams.

01:37:01:22 - 01:37:03:09
Justin
No, no, never.

01:37:04:00 - 01:37:43:05
Justin
I think I've actually thought about this a lot. Like what is like in my mind, everyone has a different view on climbing and mountaineering, but in my mind, like the pinnacle objective, the pinnacle day that anybody could have in the mountains. And, you know, it's my opinion. But like climbing the west edge of Everest, which is a different route on Everest, still goes to the highest peak but has technical terrain, no fixed lines, no people climbing the west ridge of Everest, and a single push from base camp with skis on your back and then skiing down the standard route, you know, like that would be, in my mind, like the pinnacle

01:37:43:05 - 01:38:09:18
Justin
of like, anything anyone could ever do in the mountains, whether I'm ever capable to do that or not. I have no idea. But I certainly will not be able to do that if I can't even climb Everest, you know, without oxygen via the standard route. So, you know, is that a hard goal in the sand? No. It's like very uncertain dream.

01:38:09:20 - 01:38:19:05
Justin
But I do think that something like that would be, like, the real pinnacle. And I'll take a step towards it. And if I fail hugely at this.

01:38:19:07 - 01:38:21:22
Justin
Then it's definitely not the case. But if this.

01:38:21:22 - 01:38:27:06
Justin
Feels pretty easy, which it probably won't, then then maybe that that could be

01:38:27:06 - 01:38:27:17
Kyle
possible.

01:38:27:18 - 01:38:40:24
Kyle
So if failure happens and you don't succeed, is it? Go back and repeat and try again. Or is it scale back, take a take a little brother step and then go back to the objective. How are you going to break that down?

01:38:40:24 - 01:39:04:03
Justin
So good question. I think it all depends on on how I've thought about it a lot, because knowing the people who have done it successfully without oxygen is pretty intimidating. You know, it's basically like all the best pro climbers in the United States. You know, it's like Conrad Anker and Beastars like that crew is who's climbed Everest without oxygen and hearing some of the personal accounts.

01:39:04:03 - 01:39:36:06
Justin
It seems like for some of those people, like they had a great day, like LV was like, and I felt so strong on that ever summit without oxygen. He was like, it's one of my best days in the mountain. And then I've heard from other people that like for them to pull it off, they had to push so deep into their like pain cave and risk tolerance that they summited within like inches of like the energy of their that their body had left and they felt like they survived by a thread, you know.

01:39:36:08 - 01:40:01:21
Justin
So I'm not willing to push until my body has an inch of life left in it to me, that's like not enough risk margin. So hopefully it's not that hard and I don't have to take that much risk. But I won't know until I go, you know, like until I take off from the South Col, like, I won't know how tired I am or I'm not.

01:40:01:23 - 01:40:08:08
Justin
So I think the next steps, should failure happen, depend in a huge way on how my body does

01:40:08:08 - 01:40:08:14
Kyle
it.

01:40:08:14 - 01:40:12:00
Kyle
There, how how significant the failure is.

01:40:12:07 - 01:40:33:29
Justin
Yeah. How much risk I feel like I would have to take to pull it off, you know, like, could I train a little bit harder? Could I have better tactics? Yes, I'm sure I'll learn things on the trip, but if it feels like I'm so far away or like I could do it, but to do it, I would have to take the ultimate risk, you know?

01:40:33:29 - 01:40:35:28
Justin
Then maybe I turn into a sport climber.

01:40:35:28 - 01:40:36:03
Justin
In

01:40:36:03 - 01:40:36:20
Kyle
Yeah.

01:40:36:20 - 01:40:41:11
Kyle
Like, is that objective just simply incongruent with, like, who you are as a climber at this moment.

01:40:41:27 - 01:41:01:21
Justin
Or just genetically, you know, like there's a huge genetic component to climbing at altitude and acclimatization. And so far I've done pretty well where I've, like felt pretty strong at, you know, up to 6800, 900m. But I don't know how I'll do at 8800m. You know, that's a lot more meter.

01:41:02:01 - 01:41:32:12
Kyle
It's wild, man. That's wild. Do you like, how about, say, success happens? Like, do you feel like it's going to be a defining moment in your climbing career? And do you feel like it will impact like your your profession as a guide, your, title as like a business owner for your for your company, like, is is there some sort of weight that carries with that as well with like the kind of benefits that might come from being someone who has achieved something like this?

01:41:33:01 - 01:41:59:14
Justin
Yeah. I mean, I think undoubtedly, you know, Everest being what it is. And so if you like people having climbed it without oxygen, like people will will care for sure. And I will care for sure, too, because I do think it's going to be, you know, hugely challenging for me to pull that off. So that'll make it really personally meaningful.

01:41:59:17 - 01:42:25:25
Justin
But I hope it's not like the crowning achievement of my, my climbing career. You know, I'm only 28 and I plan on climbing until I'm in my 60s. You know, Steve Swanson want to pilot or at 66, you know, so I, I hope it's like a a step along the way. And then, yeah, in terms of, like, publicity and for my business and all those things like.

01:42:25:28 - 01:43:05:14
Justin
Yeah, that's definitely a factor. No doubt. If, you know, people care enough about it, like more people will know, I guess, who I am and that my business exists. But I'm trying not to let any of those factors affect my decision making. You know, I think it's really important that I get up there with, like, as minimal ego as possible, going up with like, the purest of intentions, of trying my absolute best and making sure that I come home safe as the number one priority and all that other like noise I don't think is going to serve any like benefit while I'm up there.

01:43:05:23 - 01:43:06:19
Kyle
That's cool.

01:43:06:22 - 01:43:10:27
Kyle
I can't I can't wait to hear about it. We'll have to it's what's your partner's game again?

01:43:11:11 - 01:43:13:04
Kyle
Ryan, we'll have to get you and Ryan on the show after.

01:43:13:07 - 01:43:14:01
Kyle
Yeah, yeah.

01:43:14:04 - 01:43:15:09
Kyle
Talk about it. Break it down.

01:43:15:15 - 01:43:16:01
Justin
Yeah.

01:43:16:01 - 01:43:16:13
Kyle
yeah.

01:43:16:21 - 01:43:35:15
Kyle
Yeah, it's been cool. It's cool to meet you and, like, have this weekend to climb together. It was just rad that you reached out and, just jumped on the opportunity, and. Yeah, just like the last couple of days, I was climbing kind of, like, almost 2000ft or two days has been rad. And, like, I've had minimal ice climbing, like exposure.

01:43:35:15 - 01:43:47:17
Kyle
And so, yeah, this weekend was just super cool. Is nice to see you flow over ice and, just like, yeah, open up a new chapter of my own climbing. So, yeah, I appreciate you inviting me out here.

01:43:47:17 - 01:43:52:08
Justin
Thank. Yeah. Man, it was great climbing with you. And. Hey, man, you've got a great future in ice climbing.

01:43:52:11 - 01:43:54:27
Justin
You floated. You floated everything. So.

01:43:54:27 - 01:43:56:09
Kyle
Yeah, I appreciate that. You can't.

01:43:56:09 - 01:43:56:12
Kyle
Wait

01:43:56:12 - 01:43:57:04
Justin
wait to climb together

01:43:57:04 - 01:43:59:08
Kyle
Again. Oh, yeah. Man. Yeah. Where.

01:43:59:08 - 01:44:06:18
Kyle
Can people, like, follow your story? Where can people learn more about your guiding service? Like, where should people do those things?

01:44:06:24 - 01:44:28:11
Justin
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have an Instagram. That's just my my name just in Dot Sackett. And then. Yeah, my, my company is just Skyline Mountain guides. So, you know, standard dot skyline mountain guides.com. For anybody who's interested and, you know, getting into mountaineering, we'd love to chat with you.

01:44:28:20 - 01:44:30:16
Kyle
Cool. Awesome, man I appreciate you.