116 | Paul Rogers: Active Duty Green Beret - Mountain Warfare Training & A 2200ft Fall

Paul Rogers is an active duty US Army Special Forces (Green Beret) officer who previously served as the commander of the Special Operations Mountain Warfare Training Center (SOMWTC), the specialized schoolhouse responsible for training all military mountaineers for US Special Operations Command (USSOCOM). This episode explores what it actually takes to train elite operators for mountain warfare, why these skills matter in modern combat operations, and the staggering complexity of preparing soldiers to fight enemies in mountainous environments where the terrain itself is trying to kill you. Paul walks through the history of Special Forces mountain warfare dating back to World War II, why unconventional warfare and violent conflict occurs disproportionately in mountains, and how US Special Operations Forces are trained to operate there. We discuss the different levels of mountain operator certification (basic, summer, winter), what the 7-8 week intensive courses actually entail, the 2-to-1 instructor-to-student ratios required for safety, and why many instructors are pursuing IFMGA guide certifications to become legitimate mountain guides. Finally, we dive into Paul's own 2200-foot fall on Wilson Peak's North Face in Telluride, Colorado, where he hit a buried rock while ski mountaineering, tomahawked 400-500 feet, nearly came to a stop, and then was swept over multiple cliff bands by an avalanche of his own slough. He ended up partially buried 2200 feet below with a collapsed lung, broken ribs, broken hands and wrist, a compound fracture with bone sticking out of his knee, and severe internal bleeding from his intestines separating from the mesh holding them in place. His ski partner and fellow Mountain Warfare instructor Bobby executed a technical rescue—solo downclimbing through hazardous terrain to reach Paul, stabilize him, and coordinate helicopter extraction with San Miguel County Search and Rescue. Bobby would later receive the Soldier’s Medal (nation’s highest award for heroism during non-combat operations) for his actions that day.

Topics include: Special Operations Mountain Warfare Training Center, Green Beret mountain training, unconventional warfare in mountains, Afghanistan Takur Ghar 2002, foreign internal defense, instructor qualifications, IFMGA guide certification, Dunning-Kruger effect in training, ski mountaineering accidents, Wilson Peak North Face, 2200ft fall survival, avalanche burial, and technical mountain rescue

**The views and opinions on this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views, stances, or policies of any of the entities they may represent.**

#military #alpinism #mountaineering

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Transcript

00:00:00:02 - 00:00:02:25
Kyle
What have you been doing here in rhetoric?

00:00:02:28 - 00:00:04:02
Paul
I mean, this is.

00:00:04:02 - 00:00:05:18
Paul
Only the second time I've actually been.

00:00:05:22 - 00:00:06:00
Paul
To.

00:00:06:00 - 00:00:08:20
Paul
Red rocks.

00:00:08:22 - 00:00:10:06
Paul
Just the plan was.

00:00:10:06 - 00:00:15:02
Paul
To just come out here and do some great reason for us over this week. I haven't been climbing, like.

00:00:15:02 - 00:00:16:05
Paul
At all in.

00:00:16:05 - 00:00:29:24
Paul
The last, like, year and a half because we had a kid. And so. And we moved to, to Monterey. So there's not, like a big climbing scene over there. So I've pretty much just been not climbing. And so, I'm like, dying inside a little bit.

00:00:29:24 - 00:00:31:19
Paul
So I got approval from.

00:00:31:19 - 00:00:33:11
Paul
From the wife to come out and.

00:00:33:13 - 00:00:35:06
Paul
Meet up with my buddy.

00:00:35:08 - 00:00:42:17
Paul
And so we're just. He's training for the advanced rock guy course right now. And so he's just like, dude, if you can come out and just get.

00:00:42:17 - 00:00:43:01
Paul
Up a.

00:00:43:04 - 00:00:45:18
Paul
Grade three and four is like, that's all I need is for prereq.

00:00:45:18 - 00:00:49:26
Paul
So I'm doing some I'm doing mostly following a little bit of leading.

00:00:49:28 - 00:00:50:26
Paul
Definitely rusty.

00:00:50:26 - 00:00:51:27
Paul
But that.

00:00:52:02 - 00:00:52:29
Paul
We're having a good time so.

00:00:52:29 - 00:01:00:11
Paul
Far. Today we did, group therapy. And then.

00:01:00:11 - 00:01:13:11
Paul
We went and played around, did some just single pitch trad and, Willow Springs house. We still had some energy left over and then, yesterday, just to shake my dust off, we did a bunch of sport and, some trad.

00:01:13:11 - 00:01:16:02
Paul
Over and,

00:01:16:05 - 00:01:16:25
Paul
Mossy ledges.

00:01:16:25 - 00:01:18:06
Paul
Area, and.

00:01:18:06 - 00:01:22:02
Paul
Then calico bass. And we just did a bunch of sport climbs out there.

00:01:22:05 - 00:01:23:09
Paul
Just,

00:01:23:12 - 00:01:24:18
Paul
You know.

00:01:24:20 - 00:01:28:15
Paul
Exercise a little bit. And then tomorrow, the plan was to do Dark Shadows, for.

00:01:28:21 - 00:01:32:03
Paul
So. Yeah, that's a got, like.

00:01:32:03 - 00:01:34:00
Paul
A 5 a.m. wake up to do that. So.

00:01:34:05 - 00:01:37:25
Kyle
You want to be the first at the entrance

00:01:37:27 - 00:01:40:13
Paul
Yeah.

00:01:40:15 - 00:01:44:17
Paul
Yeah. Yeah. Luckily we're camping like ten.

00:01:44:17 - 00:01:47:22
Paul
Minutes away from not even five minutes from the gate. So yeah we're.

00:01:47:22 - 00:01:49:12
Paul
Leaving. Yep.

00:01:49:18 - 00:01:50:21
Paul
It's all packed. We're ready to.

00:01:50:21 - 00:01:54:24
Paul
Go. Yeah. He probably

00:01:54:28 - 00:02:01:11
Kyle
wild. We I have this running joke with everybody. It's like, you know, there's, seagulls from Nemo

00:02:01:14 - 00:02:03:11
Paul
Yeah. Mine.

00:02:03:13 - 00:02:03:24
Paul
But

00:02:03:29 - 00:02:06:00
Kyle
people in the parking lot.

00:02:06:00 - 00:02:07:20
Kyle
Like, if they did that with the roots, they were

00:02:07:27 - 00:02:11:02
Paul
Yeah.

00:02:11:04 - 00:02:14:00
Paul
Yeah.

00:02:14:03 - 00:02:18:02
Paul
Exactly. Yeah. I want to do Crimson or get on.

00:02:18:07 - 00:02:20:04
Kyle
Yeah, that question like, hey, what are you doing?

00:02:20:06 - 00:02:20:16
Paul
Yeah.

00:02:20:16 - 00:02:31:27
Paul
Well, so we asked all the climbers we saw today, like where you guys go tomorrow because, there's 3 or 2 parties ahead of us on group therapy today, and then three parties on tunnel vision right next door.

00:02:32:00 - 00:02:33:21
Paul
And then,

00:02:33:24 - 00:02:37:29
Paul
One of the parties was so slow. Tunnel television. The guys below, ended up bailing. And we're talking to them.

00:02:37:29 - 00:02:40:24
Paul
And they weren't too happy, but, Yeah, I.

00:02:40:24 - 00:02:41:12
Paul
Guess it's a luck of.

00:02:41:12 - 00:02:43:15
Paul
The draw. We,

00:02:43:17 - 00:02:45:12
Paul
The guys ahead of us were super fast, so.

00:02:45:12 - 00:02:46:17
Paul
We didn't have any issues today.

00:02:46:24 - 00:02:52:28
Kyle
for sure. In terms of the speed of the people above you, it's always luck of the draw. But my philosophy is

00:02:53:01 - 00:02:55:24
Paul
Yeah.

00:02:55:27 - 00:03:00:22
Kyle
like that, at least for dark shadows. Like once you get past the lower pitches, like there's pretty much no one is going to be following

00:03:00:25 - 00:03:01:25
Paul
Yeah.

00:03:01:27 - 00:03:04:11
Paul
Yeah. We're looking forward to it. Should be good.

00:03:04:14 - 00:03:06:05
Paul
This one of the.

00:03:06:08 - 00:03:06:14
Paul
Is I.

00:03:06:14 - 00:03:07:14
Paul
Told my, I told my

00:03:07:16 - 00:03:09:15
Paul
My buddy I'm out here with like whatever.

00:03:09:15 - 00:03:22:02
Paul
You haven't been on yet. Let's do it. And he's I mean he's been out here many times. We come out here we actually do training with the school house. Once, once a year, usually in the spring. And so in the process of doing that, the last three years, he's climbed so much, it's it's like I.

00:03:22:02 - 00:03:25:10
Paul
You know, I've never actually done Dark Shadows. Let's go do it. So that's the.

00:03:25:10 - 00:03:29:00
Paul
Plan. We'll see how it goes.

00:03:29:03 - 00:03:29:24
Paul
Yeah.

00:03:29:26 - 00:03:31:26
Paul
It's nice. It's nice to be back.

00:03:31:28 - 00:03:32:04
Paul
It's.

00:03:32:04 - 00:03:33:18
Paul
Been about a year and a half since I was out here.

00:03:33:18 - 00:03:34:17
Paul
So. No.

00:03:34:17 - 00:03:35:24
Paul
Two and a half years?

00:03:35:26 - 00:03:38:24
Paul
Yeah. No. It's fun.

00:03:38:27 - 00:03:47:15
Kyle
So for everybody, listening, like, I guess, give me your title or like, your try to summarize your background and your title.

00:03:47:18 - 00:03:48:21
Paul
Sure. Yeah.

00:03:48:23 - 00:03:49:27
Paul
So I'm,

00:03:50:00 - 00:03:52:13
Paul
I'm a major in the US Army, and.

00:03:52:16 - 00:03:53:23
Paul
Active duty special forces.

00:03:53:23 - 00:03:54:18
Paul
Officer.

00:03:54:20 - 00:03:57:11
Paul
So, there's Green Berets. There's.

00:03:57:13 - 00:03:58:12
Paul
Typically,

00:03:58:15 - 00:04:03:24
Paul
What people refer to us as, so as a special forces officer.

00:04:03:27 - 00:04:04:28
Paul
In the army,

00:04:05:01 - 00:04:10:11
Paul
At this rank, I've commanded at the team level that was called operational detachment Alphas and.

00:04:10:11 - 00:04:12:09
Paul
Oda. And then.

00:04:12:11 - 00:04:16:04
Paul
After this, I'm going to command a company which is six days.

00:04:16:06 - 00:04:18:26
Paul
So I'll be here a little bit to do that.

00:04:18:28 - 00:04:21:21
Paul
Right now I'm just a student because I'm getting,

00:04:21:24 - 00:04:23:03
Paul
Getting a masters.

00:04:23:05 - 00:04:27:05
Paul
Before I have to go back to group, and get back operational again.

00:04:27:08 - 00:04:52:24
Paul
And my assignment prior to this, which is why Jason reached out to you, was because, I was the commander of the Special operations Mountain Warfare Training Center. We got some were there or just the school house. And what that is, is it trains all of the military mountaineers for, for so. Com so Special Operations Command, so com that's, Navy Seals, Green Berets, like us Air Force special operators, like para rescue.

00:04:53:02 - 00:05:03:01
Paul
We call them PJs. Marine Raiders. That's mask, marine special operations. And then, you know, guys from from the unit as well. So.

00:05:03:01 - 00:05:08:12
Paul
We train everybody and mountain warfare, and people.

00:05:08:12 - 00:05:13:25
Paul
Come in at very various levels of skills, and we have different courses.

00:05:13:27 - 00:05:18:23
Paul
Our primary audience is Green Berets because they do the most military mountaineering.

00:05:18:26 - 00:05:20:08
Paul
Globally.

00:05:20:11 - 00:05:23:21
Paul
But we're responsible for and like the lead component for all.

00:05:23:21 - 00:05:24:23
Paul
Of our like.

00:05:24:24 - 00:05:26:07
Paul
I say, we I'm no longer the commander.

00:05:26:07 - 00:05:27:03
Paul
There.

00:05:27:06 - 00:05:33:06
Paul
But, Sam, work is the lead component for all of special operations.

00:05:33:09 - 00:05:38:15
Paul
Correct.

00:05:38:18 - 00:05:40:07
Paul
Exactly. So there's like, free fall.

00:05:40:07 - 00:05:42:26
Paul
School and, Yuma, Arizona.

00:05:42:28 - 00:05:52:20
Paul
And all the free fall, there's a dive school in Key West to actually do all the special operations divers. So all of these advanced skills, especially, skills they have, they have schools all around.

00:05:52:26 - 00:05:53:22
Paul
The country.

00:05:53:24 - 00:05:56:28
Paul
To specialize in something.

00:05:57:00 - 00:06:11:00
Kyle
of the schools. Which one do you think is the least up to date when terms of, being efficient? And, modern day like, applicable to the skills that are going to be required?

00:06:11:03 - 00:06:12:07
Paul
Gosh, I mean.

00:06:12:09 - 00:06:30:01
Paul
You have to stay so current and all of those, because, like, diving, there's new technology that comes out all the time. And they have to do re certifications re qualification. Same with free fall, especially the guys who end up doing tandem. I mean they have to get thousands of jobs to do that. So they have to stay pretty current.

00:06:30:03 - 00:06:30:21
Paul
They.

00:06:30:23 - 00:06:40:15
Paul
I say recently when I went through free fall, 5 or 6 years ago now, they had just upgraded to an RA one parachute. Which is a pull from the bottom of the canopy.

00:06:40:15 - 00:06:43:22
Paul
Which is big, a big deal, but so there's.

00:06:43:22 - 00:06:46:23
Paul
Constantly things that are happening to upgrade.

00:06:46:25 - 00:06:47:17
Paul
It is harder.

00:06:47:17 - 00:06:57:01
Paul
At the Mountain School because there is, you know, it's not just one modality like freefall parachuting. Diving is diving. Mountain warfare is,

00:06:57:03 - 00:06:58:15
Paul
Climbing, you know, rock.

00:06:58:15 - 00:07:10:27
Paul
But then also alpine mountaineering, skiing, avalanche safety. So there's, there's a lot, more different modalities inside of it. So to say current on all those things is difficult.

00:07:11:00 - 00:07:11:04
Paul
And.

00:07:11:05 - 00:07:13:01
Paul
Of course, like you have courses in all of the different.

00:07:13:01 - 00:07:14:13
Paul
Ones.

00:07:14:15 - 00:07:19:27
Paul
And so a lot of times, like, so when the instructors come out to Red rocks every spring, it's.

00:07:20:02 - 00:07:21:06
Paul
Their get like a.

00:07:21:06 - 00:07:21:15
Paul
Week of.

00:07:21:15 - 00:07:23:21
Paul
Leave, but they're coming from.

00:07:23:21 - 00:07:26:08
Paul
Guiding backcountry skiing and ski mountaineering.

00:07:26:11 - 00:07:26:27
Paul
And then the next.

00:07:26:27 - 00:07:42:05
Paul
Week they're like, all right, we haven't climbed since last fall. It's must shake the dust off and red rocks and get back on some some multi pitch Strat. So is this constantly moving to the next thing. And it's very seasonal. So that tends to keep.

00:07:42:08 - 00:07:45:04
Paul
You guys stay current in each one of those. And that's you know that's expensive.

00:07:45:04 - 00:07:49:10
Paul
But

00:07:49:13 - 00:07:50:04
Paul
Rock alpine and.

00:07:50:04 - 00:07:54:06
Paul
Ski. Yeah.

00:07:54:09 - 00:07:55:17
Paul
Yeah.

00:07:55:20 - 00:08:10:20
Kyle
understand the complexity in terms of trying to get somebody up to speed in something that's so complex. And you're you're ultimately you're teaching someone to be efficient in an entire, like, terrain, like it's like it's almost like a lifestyle that you have to, like, get attuned with.

00:08:10:23 - 00:08:11:29
Paul
Yeah. Mountainous terrain.

00:08:11:29 - 00:08:13:26
Paul
I mean it it.

00:08:13:28 - 00:08:34:00
Paul
Is, it covers so many different things like you mentioned. We also call it like vertical terrain, terrain of consequence like any of these things. But at the same time you have to remember that, you know, Green Berets and special operators, the special skill is secondary to the primary school, which is, you know, close with industry of the enemy.

00:08:34:03 - 00:08:38:18
Paul
And so these the skills that you learn, we can talk about this more later.

00:08:38:18 - 00:08:39:17
Paul
Maybe, but like.

00:08:39:23 - 00:08:40:23
Paul
High angle rescue.

00:08:41:00 - 00:08:44:05
Paul
Or like doing, a repel.

00:08:44:05 - 00:08:44:26
Paul
A hasty repel or.

00:08:44:26 - 00:08:47:14
Paul
Something. You could be doing that in urban environment.

00:08:47:16 - 00:08:50:00
Paul
You could be setting hasty anchors in a building or rappelling out of.

00:08:50:00 - 00:08:51:02
Paul
A window, or doing.

00:08:51:02 - 00:09:04:15
Paul
An elevator shaft rescue or a confined space rescue. So like a lot of the skills, the fundamentals, the systems that you actually learn, like hauling systems, lowers transitions, everything like that, it can equate very easily to like an urban vertical terrain.

00:09:04:15 - 00:09:05:18
Paul
So while.

00:09:05:22 - 00:09:07:23
Paul
Mountain warfare is like.

00:09:07:25 - 00:09:09:15
Paul
What we call it, and Mount.

00:09:09:15 - 00:09:17:01
Paul
Warfare Training Center is our title, it really transcends the environment itself into just vertical terrain and terrain of consequence in general.

00:09:17:03 - 00:09:23:03
Paul
Now, I could.

00:09:23:05 - 00:09:29:12
Paul
But.

00:09:29:14 - 00:09:45:05
Paul
I'm totally. Really? Yeah.

00:09:45:08 - 00:09:55:09
Kyle
how good your systems are, like, there's going to be this whole factor of just like understanding the environment that you're in, in the first place, and that the only way to really get experience that with his his time,

00:09:55:11 - 00:09:55:19
Paul
Yeah.

00:09:55:21 - 00:09:56:12
Paul
Just time doing.

00:09:56:12 - 00:09:56:28
Paul
It.

00:09:57:01 - 00:10:00:03
Paul
Time on a rope. Time and hardest time on skis.

00:10:00:06 - 00:10:04:00
Paul
Whatever it might be. And. Yeah, you know.

00:10:04:02 - 00:10:07:03
Paul
When teams are deploying overseas and they're working with partners and.

00:10:07:03 - 00:10:08:06
Paul
They're, you know.

00:10:08:06 - 00:10:11:25
Paul
Doing combat operations in mountainous environments, they're not.

00:10:11:28 - 00:10:17:16
Paul
You know, they're not climbing something that's been cleaned. They're not bolted anchors. If they're doing anything, it's.

00:10:17:16 - 00:10:19:23
Paul
Through chores and it's through.

00:10:19:23 - 00:10:39:13
Paul
This, like absolute shit that they're trying to figure out how to do anchors so that they don't kill themselves as a lead climber. But then also, when you said the fixed lines, the people who are coming up behind you, they're not kicking down boulders and stuff on guys below. So there's definitely like pretty high objective risk when you're talking about.

00:10:39:16 - 00:10:45:27
Paul
Transferring this, capability from like, the crag to an actual, place where the mountain is trying to kill.

00:10:45:27 - 00:10:46:10
Paul
You and the.

00:10:46:10 - 00:10:47:14
Paul
Enemy probably is trying to kill.

00:10:47:14 - 00:10:48:26
Paul
You.

00:10:48:28 - 00:11:01:00
Kyle
hostile people trying to kill you as well, while also trying to not kill yourself. Now, you had said something early on. You said you think it's important for people to understand what you're doing. Why do you think that.

00:11:01:02 - 00:11:01:23
Paul
I mean, even in the.

00:11:01:23 - 00:11:09:03
Paul
Special operations community, like, the mountain skill set is kind of just, like, a very niche.

00:11:09:05 - 00:11:09:28
Paul
Capability.

00:11:09:28 - 00:11:11:20
Paul
I'd say.

00:11:11:22 - 00:11:17:06
Paul
There's there's always been like a stigma that, like, oh, these guys are just, you know, climbing.

00:11:17:06 - 00:11:17:14
Paul
And.

00:11:17:21 - 00:11:37:06
Paul
Neon colors and sticky shoes, and they're not actually doing operator things. They're not spending all this time on the range. I just want to go on a ski trip to, to Vail or whatever. And so that that sort of stereotyping, as valid as it seems like. Yeah, we spend a lot of time, you know, skiing, spend a lot of time in mountains on a as a mountain.

00:11:37:06 - 00:11:38:04
Paul
Oda.

00:11:38:06 - 00:11:45:08
Paul
You're fighting for just like, two to maybe four weeks a year where you can actually train on that skill set between all the other requirements that you have.

00:11:45:11 - 00:11:47:02
Paul
So even even with the special.

00:11:47:04 - 00:11:49:27
Paul
Even within the special operations community.

00:11:50:00 - 00:11:50:09
Paul
Like.

00:11:50:09 - 00:12:02:08
Paul
People don't really understand all that goes into it. And then when you talk about, outside the special operations community, basically for like, a civilian, for a layperson.

00:12:02:11 - 00:12:03:06
Paul
We're, we're.

00:12:03:06 - 00:12:05:05
Paul
Mountain guides, when it comes down to.

00:12:05:05 - 00:12:06:27
Paul
It and mountain.

00:12:06:27 - 00:12:07:06
Paul
Guides.

00:12:07:06 - 00:12:08:14
Paul
For other.

00:12:08:14 - 00:12:10:17
Paul
Military organizations, for partner forces.

00:12:10:17 - 00:12:12:02
Paul
For different.

00:12:12:02 - 00:12:21:13
Paul
Units, to get them through this high consequence terrain, safe way. So that's what these teams are employed to do.

00:12:21:16 - 00:12:22:27
Paul
Our partners,

00:12:23:00 - 00:12:23:09
Paul
Some of.

00:12:23:09 - 00:12:26:19
Paul
Them have great capabilities in mountain warfare.

00:12:26:21 - 00:12:29:11
Paul
Some of them do not. And so we try.

00:12:29:11 - 00:12:30:06
Paul
To like,

00:12:30:09 - 00:12:31:18
Paul
Train them, make them.

00:12:31:18 - 00:12:32:10
Paul
Better and.

00:12:32:10 - 00:12:38:14
Paul
Make them more lethal in that environment. And so I guess if that answers your question in terms of.

00:12:38:14 - 00:12:40:13
Paul
Like,

00:12:40:15 - 00:12:42:03
Paul
Why do riders nobody.

00:12:42:03 - 00:12:45:10
Paul
Know about us, that's probably not a.

00:12:45:10 - 00:12:51:24
Paul
Lot of people know about Green Berets in general. There's not a lot of movies out there, you know, about what Green Berets do. Since like.

00:12:51:27 - 00:12:54:03
Paul
John Wayne and like, in the 70s in Vietnam.

00:12:54:05 - 00:13:04:08
Paul
But, I think it's important for people, to know that, like, hey, this is a capability that we have, you know, as an American force. Yeah, we have we have.

00:13:04:08 - 00:13:05:09
Paul
Guys,

00:13:05:12 - 00:13:13:18
Paul
Who are, incredibly, fit, incredibly strong mountain people who can,

00:13:13:20 - 00:13:15:20
Paul
Deploy anywhere in the world at any given time and.

00:13:15:20 - 00:13:15:27
Paul
Do.

00:13:16:00 - 00:13:23:00
Paul
Do harm, I guess people in the mountains, I don't want to sound like too, too lame about it, but when it comes down to it, you know, that's, that's the job.

00:13:23:00 - 00:13:24:04
Paul
And the perk.

00:13:24:04 - 00:13:34:20
Paul
Of the job is you get to spend all your time in mountains and be a mountain person and try to and train to be a mountain guide. Because anybody knows, like that's where the passion comes from is spending time in mountains for.

00:13:34:20 - 00:13:40:26
Paul
A lot of people know.

00:13:40:28 - 00:13:45:05
Paul
Yes.

00:13:45:08 - 00:13:46:22
Kyle
enlisted

00:13:46:24 - 00:13:54:14
Paul
So so we call it regular army, conventional army. So no we don't very rarely would we have a,

00:13:54:17 - 00:13:57:20
Paul
A student who comes through who's not special operations.

00:13:57:22 - 00:13:57:28
Paul
There.

00:13:57:28 - 00:14:00:08
Paul
Is a Army Mountain Warfare School.

00:14:00:08 - 00:14:00:18
Paul
Which.

00:14:00:18 - 00:14:09:14
Paul
Trains conventional Army units and, like basic mountain warfare. There's also a marine Corps Mountain warfare training center, which is,

00:14:09:17 - 00:14:10:00
Paul
Bridgeport.

00:14:10:00 - 00:14:11:02
Paul
California, actually in the.

00:14:11:02 - 00:14:15:07
Paul
Sierras. And they.

00:14:15:09 - 00:14:22:20
Paul
I think so, yeah. And those are great programs. There's, there's a, Northern Warfare training center in Alaska that does Arctic warfare as well.

00:14:22:23 - 00:14:23:29
Paul
Another great programs.

00:14:24:02 - 00:14:36:18
Paul
They train conventional forces. A lot of the skills are the same. But in those cases, you're talking, you're training somebody in the basics of, like, not tying, harnesses so that they can go.

00:14:36:20 - 00:14:42:25
Paul
So that they can go to mountains with a larger unit and do, like conventional operations in the mountains.

00:14:42:27 - 00:14:44:11
Paul
And. Yeah. Well, well, the.

00:14:44:11 - 00:14:46:02
Paul
Skills are very similar.

00:14:46:05 - 00:14:46:14
Paul
We.

00:14:46:14 - 00:14:47:26
Paul
Tend to focus on.

00:14:47:29 - 00:14:48:29
Paul
Like.

00:14:49:01 - 00:14:56:18
Paul
Very particular small unit tactics and these terrains, and then as a mountain guide to bring an untrained partner force.

00:14:56:18 - 00:14:58:05
Paul
Through is a partner.

00:14:58:05 - 00:14:58:24
Paul
That we might have.

00:14:58:24 - 00:15:00:00
Paul
Somewhere will not.

00:15:00:00 - 00:15:00:25
Paul
Be trained how.

00:15:00:25 - 00:15:03:08
Paul
To, be like.

00:15:03:10 - 00:15:06:06
Paul
How to navigate a fixed line. As an example.

00:15:06:09 - 00:15:08:25
Kyle
to the the instructing that you're get, you're

00:15:08:28 - 00:15:09:05
Paul
Yeah.

00:15:09:09 - 00:15:22:06
Paul
And that's why the, the, the schoolhouse is very closely tied with a lot of IFJ pan guides, for our own mentorship and for our own development so that we can learn to be guides. And then there's a number of, instructors now who are.

00:15:22:06 - 00:15:23:20
Paul
Partly way through, like.

00:15:23:20 - 00:15:27:21
Paul
The pin process, whether it's in alpine rock or ski.

00:15:27:23 - 00:15:38:18
Paul
I think there's like 6 or 7 now that have started that process. Been to like the basic courses and are now apprentice or aspiring guides.

00:15:38:21 - 00:15:42:01
Paul
Not yet. And we've got some very.

00:15:42:01 - 00:15:46:11
Paul
Few that are pretty close. We have some that are pretty close. And then there's also a.

00:15:46:11 - 00:15:47:15
Paul
Huge like.

00:15:47:15 - 00:15:53:01
Paul
Subculture of former operators who have retired after, you know, 15, 20 years of.

00:15:53:01 - 00:16:00:08
Paul
Service, who then they go on and they get their full pen and then they, they can come back and.

00:16:00:08 - 00:16:05:19
Paul
Consult as former operators now pen guides. So there's a, there's a really, really strong and growing.

00:16:05:19 - 00:16:07:05
Paul
Community of, of people.

00:16:07:05 - 00:16:13:03
Paul
Like minded individuals who know that mountain warfare is something that we tend not to think about, but we really need the.

00:16:13:03 - 00:16:14:02
Paul
Capability,

00:16:14:05 - 00:16:26:16
Kyle
Yeah. So, yeah, let's, let's talk about kind of use case for these skills that you're learning, like, I'm interested in I don't again, I, forgive me for my lack of, vocabulary

00:16:26:22 - 00:16:27:27
Paul
Sure. Yeah.

00:16:28:01 - 00:16:34:03
Kyle
But also lack of understanding with just exactly what it is that you're doing. How are you carrying the skills of climbing?

00:16:34:03 - 00:16:44:21
Kyle
How you carrying mountain skills into these hostile areas? And how are you kind of applying them, in the mountains, like, I guess, paint some scenarios for me of

00:16:44:23 - 00:16:47:03
Paul
Yeah, that's a really good question.

00:16:47:05 - 00:16:49:17
Paul
So if people have in like, their mind.

00:16:49:19 - 00:16:51:09
Paul
I would, I think,

00:16:51:11 - 00:16:53:15
Paul
Like special operations, mount warfare.

00:16:53:22 - 00:16:53:27
Paul
I.

00:16:53:27 - 00:17:05:19
Paul
Think like Tom Cruise and Mission Impossible to, like free soloing was a castle or something. And that he was, like, doing the crazy, like, campus move or something that is not, is not at.

00:17:05:21 - 00:17:09:27
Paul
It is kind of like what we talked about before, like going up across piles.

00:17:09:29 - 00:17:11:24
Paul
With,

00:17:11:27 - 00:17:16:23
Paul
And then trying to set fixed lines for people to come up. It's.

00:17:16:25 - 00:17:17:23
Paul
I guess I'll give you a.

00:17:17:23 - 00:17:23:12
Paul
Historic example to get a little bit into, like the history of special Forces. We'll go back to, World War two.

00:17:23:19 - 00:17:23:25
Paul
As.

00:17:23:26 - 00:17:38:06
Paul
Was, most of the special operations units draw their lineage to World War two. That's when they first set up these capabilities. The Special Forces regiment, specifically the Green Berets, draw their lineage to a unit that was called the first Special Service Force.

00:17:38:09 - 00:17:42:20
Paul
The force is what was referred to as now is a joint American and Canadian force.

00:17:42:25 - 00:17:43:01
Paul
That.

00:17:43:01 - 00:17:43:19
Paul
Recruited.

00:17:43:19 - 00:17:46:00
Paul
Mountaineers.

00:17:46:02 - 00:18:09:16
Paul
Hunters like, woods men's people from, like, the deep mountains of Canada and the Rocky Mountains, Montana, Colorado. And they put them into this, unit and they train them for winter and mountain warfare, specifically for something that was at the time called Operation Plow, which was the Allied invasion of Norway, because I looked at Norway, which was, controlled by the Nazis in World War Two, and they're like.

00:18:09:18 - 00:18:13:15
Paul
Well, if we if we invade Norway, we're going to need mountain trained people.

00:18:13:17 - 00:18:25:00
Paul
And so this was the unit designed to do that. Operation Plow obviously never happened, but they did end up employing the force in the mountains of Italy. So there's, one famous,

00:18:25:03 - 00:18:25:07
Paul
The.

00:18:25:07 - 00:18:42:18
Paul
Gothic Line that the Nazis held across the middle of, Italy for a period of time. And in 1943, there was, Mount La defense, which was pretty much like this high peak right in the middle of that line. And there were Germans sitting on there. They were calling in artillery, and it stalled the whole Allied advance for months.

00:18:42:20 - 00:18:53:08
Paul
Thousands of casualties. They sent the force in and their lead climbers within a period of about, 12 hours. They led they set fixed lines and they.

00:18:53:08 - 00:18:54:04
Paul
And ended.

00:18:54:04 - 00:18:57:18
Paul
Up infiltrating an entire battalion, which is about 4 or.

00:18:57:18 - 00:18:59:04
Paul
500

00:18:59:06 - 00:19:04:00
Paul
Of these trained mountaineers up to the top of the mountain. And they ended up taking Mount La defense.

00:19:04:03 - 00:19:04:11
Paul
With.

00:19:04:11 - 00:19:12:23
Paul
Extreme casualties, mind you. And that's just because they went up, they had mountaineers leading, doing a recon under fire.

00:19:12:26 - 00:19:13:03
Paul
And.

00:19:13:03 - 00:19:16:27
Paul
Then setting this fixed line so that the, the rest of the guys come up behind them. And then they.

00:19:16:27 - 00:19:17:28
Paul
Took them out and.

00:19:18:00 - 00:19:24:25
Paul
So that's sort of an example of assaulting a fixed enemy position, which is very difficult to do.

00:19:24:27 - 00:19:36:25
Paul
That's also above you. And that sort of like goes against every maxim of military tactics, is you never attack uphill. But mountaineers sometimes have to do that. So that's a unit that we, we draw our lineage to in that sense, looking a little bit.

00:19:36:25 - 00:19:39:03
Paul
More, more modern.

00:19:39:06 - 00:19:46:19
Paul
Another, use case that we can talk about is, Operation Anaconda, which was in 2002.

00:19:46:22 - 00:19:47:01
Paul
In.

00:19:47:01 - 00:19:55:18
Paul
Afghanistan. So I'm into history, so I'm sorry if this is, like, it isn't helping. So.

00:19:55:21 - 00:19:58:14
Paul
When nine over 11 happened,

00:19:58:16 - 00:20:08:07
Paul
We sent special operations forces into Afghanistan after about a month and a half. Those special operations forces ended up, completely dismantling the Taliban and.

00:20:08:07 - 00:20:11:28
Paul
About, and about a month,

00:20:12:00 - 00:20:20:12
Paul
They came in on horseback. If you've seen, like, the movie Horse Soldiers, things like that. They came in on horseback through the mountains. They called airstrikes on the Taliban forces. They.

00:20:20:12 - 00:20:23:12
Paul
Took Kabul at about a month. Month and a half. All of those.

00:20:23:12 - 00:20:32:11
Paul
Remaining Al-Qaeda and Taliban forces then fled into the mountains of Afghanistan, on the border of Pakistan, and to this area called the Shaco Valley.

00:20:32:13 - 00:20:32:29
Paul
And in the middle.

00:20:32:29 - 00:20:38:29
Paul
Of the Shaco valley was the mountain called Tucker Ghar, which was about 12,000ft.

00:20:38:29 - 00:20:40:08
Paul
Peak.

00:20:40:10 - 00:20:45:00
Paul
Right there. The base was 8000. So it's like a 4000ft prominent peak.

00:20:45:02 - 00:20:47:29
Paul
And there.

00:20:47:29 - 00:20:57:06
Paul
Was an organization that's part of Delta Force, at the time called AFO Advanced Force Operations. They do special reconnaissance. And so, the unit which was commanded.

00:20:57:06 - 00:20:58:22
Paul
By.

00:20:58:24 - 00:21:10:11
Paul
A special operator named Colonel Pete Blabber, he insisted for months before he, they went to Afghanistan that his, his operators were going to get mountain warfare training.

00:21:10:14 - 00:21:29:01
Paul
They spent time in Montana. They did, like a bunch of wilderness mountaineering expeditions. Basically, they trained in the environment. They trained at altitude so that when they got to Afghanistan, the Chaco Valley, they sent those guys up to establish, special reconnaissance positions. They had all of the, necessary skills and environmental training they needed to thrive there.

00:21:29:03 - 00:21:40:04
Paul
And what these guys ended up doing was quite remarkable because this was Operation Anaconda was in February, so the snow covered peaks these guys are, infiltrating with the, Chinook helicopter.

00:21:40:06 - 00:21:42:12
Paul
They're landing,

00:21:42:15 - 00:21:48:03
Paul
At the base of a mountain and basically walking to these tops of these mountains to set up observation points so they could,

00:21:48:05 - 00:21:48:28
Paul
Pinpoint where the.

00:21:48:28 - 00:21:51:01
Paul
Enemy is and call in airstrikes to destroy.

00:21:51:01 - 00:21:52:17
Paul
Them. Operation.

00:21:52:17 - 00:21:55:09
Paul
Anaconda went horribly wrong. And that's.

00:21:55:12 - 00:22:04:18
Paul
A lot of investigations on why that happened. But, after a few days, they brought in some conventional forces to, to do some blocking positions.

00:22:04:20 - 00:22:12:18
Paul
But, they had some ABC. I don't want to talk shit on Navy Seals because there's a phenomenal Navy Seals, especially mountain operators out there today.

00:22:12:20 - 00:22:13:04
Paul
But they had.

00:22:13:04 - 00:22:27:24
Paul
Some Navy Seal teams come in who did not receive that training. They did not receive that mountain warfare, experience before going in. And they didn't have any of the right equipment. And what ended up happening is, they thought they could land right on the top of the mountain.

00:22:27:27 - 00:22:32:28
Paul
The mountain was held by, an al-Qaida force, of Chechens.

00:22:33:00 - 00:22:34:10
Paul
Who,

00:22:34:13 - 00:22:36:05
Paul
Historically fight to the death.

00:22:36:08 - 00:22:36:18
Paul
They ended up.

00:22:36:18 - 00:22:38:04
Paul
Shooting down a Chinook on top of the.

00:22:38:04 - 00:22:39:03
Paul
Mountain.

00:22:39:06 - 00:22:48:08
Paul
And several operators lost their lives, in order just to rescue them, another seal force was inserted, and then had to essentially.

00:22:48:08 - 00:22:50:04
Paul
Climb a cooler.

00:22:50:06 - 00:22:52:00
Paul
Up the backside of the mountain.

00:22:52:03 - 00:22:54:00
Paul
And like, they had 110.

00:22:54:00 - 00:22:59:13
Paul
Pounds of gear there trying to climb this 2000ft cooler to get on the backside of the mountain to take out the enemy.

00:22:59:13 - 00:22:59:22
Paul
While.

00:23:00:00 - 00:23:03:09
Paul
The guys in the crashed helicopter were pinned down by fire, and RPGs and.

00:23:03:09 - 00:23:04:07
Paul
Mortars.

00:23:04:09 - 00:23:27:07
Paul
And they had to dump all their equipment. There were guys going down from heat carrying, because I didn't receive any of that, pre altitude training or pre mountain environmental training. And so that sort of opened up, you know, surprise people like here's these tier one operators who can do anything to any enemy anywhere. But they were defeated at the top of Tiger Guard.

00:23:27:09 - 00:23:32:24
Paul
And so after that, there was a large emphasis placed on.

00:23:32:26 - 00:23:33:01
Paul
On.

00:23:33:01 - 00:23:35:21
Paul
Mountain warfare and training teams in high angle rescue.

00:23:35:22 - 00:23:37:05
Paul
Specifically.

00:23:37:07 - 00:23:41:17
Paul
In order so that they could, operate in the mountains of Afghanistan.

00:23:41:20 - 00:23:42:09
Paul
Now, that's like a.

00:23:42:09 - 00:23:44:24
Paul
Very,

00:23:44:26 - 00:23:52:18
Paul
I suppose, dramatic example. Most teams, most mountain teams and special forces are deploying to,

00:23:52:21 - 00:23:53:08
Paul
Yeah.

00:23:53:11 - 00:23:54:07
Paul
Mountainous countries like.

00:23:54:07 - 00:23:56:04
Paul
Colombia, where.

00:23:56:10 - 00:23:59:25
Paul
Fark an insurgency force has been living in the mountains for like.

00:23:59:25 - 00:24:00:20
Paul
Decades.

00:24:00:22 - 00:24:11:00
Paul
And those are mountain fighters because they patrol, they own those mountains. So if you're going to train the Colombians and work with the Colombians in dismantling an insurgency in the mountains.

00:24:11:06 - 00:24:13:24
Paul
You have to have that environmental training.

00:24:13:26 - 00:24:15:12
Paul
And so every special forces.

00:24:15:12 - 00:24:16:25
Paul
Group, which.

00:24:16:25 - 00:24:20:14
Paul
For listeners who don't know, there's different groups that specialize in different regions of.

00:24:20:14 - 00:24:21:22
Paul
The world.

00:24:21:25 - 00:24:24:09
Paul
I'm from 10th group, so we specialize in Europe.

00:24:24:11 - 00:24:24:21
Paul
So.

00:24:24:21 - 00:24:27:02
Paul
As when I was a mountain team leader, we went to Georgia.

00:24:27:04 - 00:24:27:13
Paul
Is on the.

00:24:27:13 - 00:24:31:01
Paul
Border of Russia and the Caucasus Mountains.

00:24:31:04 - 00:24:38:26
Paul
Now there's, there's, teams first group in the Pacific that train for, Nepal.

00:24:38:29 - 00:24:42:12
Paul
Taiwan is very mountainous. So there's.

00:24:42:14 - 00:24:44:00
Paul
There's certainly, a lot.

00:24:44:00 - 00:24:45:00
Paul
Of mountains everywhere in the.

00:24:45:00 - 00:24:46:01
Paul
World. And you have to have.

00:24:46:01 - 00:24:47:03
Paul
Operators that are trained.

00:24:47:03 - 00:24:48:03
Paul
To,

00:24:48:05 - 00:24:54:13
Paul
to operate there. Exactly.

00:24:54:16 - 00:24:56:06
Paul
Exactly.

00:24:56:08 - 00:25:02:21
Paul
And so that's, that's sort of I don't know if that necessarily answers your question, but that's sort of a use case of what you do and you get there.

00:25:02:29 - 00:25:04:07
Paul
It could be, you.

00:25:04:07 - 00:25:05:26
Paul
Know, direct action. You're just.

00:25:05:29 - 00:25:06:15
Paul
The.

00:25:06:18 - 00:25:22:02
Paul
Fighting an enemy at the top of a cliff. The seals are particularly good at that. It's called, Cliff assault because most of the beaches in the world then have cliffs. So you have to somehow land on the beach. You know, you you swim, you dive, and then you had to climb up. So vertical cliff assault is is something they.

00:25:22:02 - 00:25:23:06
Paul
Have to do.

00:25:23:09 - 00:25:28:16
Paul
Any, any team that operates in the High North and the Arctic is, especially, you know, that.

00:25:28:16 - 00:25:29:11
Paul
Norway,

00:25:29:17 - 00:25:30:16
Paul
Finland, Sweden border.

00:25:30:16 - 00:25:32:01
Paul
Russia. They're.

00:25:32:03 - 00:25:39:00
Paul
Alaska. Yeah. It's very contentious. It's been the news a lot lately. You have to have teams who can not only,

00:25:39:02 - 00:25:40:06
Paul
You know, fight and.

00:25:40:06 - 00:25:49:16
Paul
These, like, survive this extreme temperatures. The extremes is extreme environments. But then they have to operate there. So just being there and living is.

00:25:49:18 - 00:25:49:26
Paul
Like.

00:25:49:26 - 00:25:52:25
Paul
Required. You can't not do that. And so that's sort.

00:25:52:25 - 00:25:54:01
Paul
Of,

00:25:54:03 - 00:26:02:06
Paul
That's sort of the use case today. Special reconnaissance. I mentioned that before, but inserting somewhere, being very sneaky, nobody knows you're there. So you can.

00:26:02:08 - 00:26:04:27
Paul
Observe a target, and then.

00:26:04:29 - 00:26:08:27
Paul
Potentially call in airstrikes or just pass information for other folks to do things.

00:26:09:00 - 00:26:26:18
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00:27:21:13 - 00:27:42:23
Kyle
Now, this this next question. I don't know how much you can go into this, but I'm curious as to like, I guess the so we talked about use case of like troops on ground and what they're doing. And I want to maybe take a step back further and think about like maybe the conflicts in general, like,

00:27:42:25 - 00:27:59:02
Kyle
Like, the, the enemy forces are using the mountainous terrain. For what purpose? Like, I think one of them we established was like reconnaissance, right? Like high on a peak. You have the view of a huge amount of landscape, and you can

00:27:59:05 - 00:28:08:12
Paul
So sometimes. Sometimes.

00:28:08:15 - 00:28:10:07
Paul
Yeah.

00:28:10:10 - 00:28:11:00
Paul
Why or why.

00:28:11:00 - 00:28:12:00
Paul
Are there battlefields here.

00:28:12:00 - 00:28:13:27
Paul
Yeah.

00:28:14:00 - 00:28:33:20
Kyle
is, you know, if we just left them alone or if, you know, there was no contention in the first place, would that spill back out into common ground like non mountainous terrain? Why do we see such value in dedicating a lot of time and resources and effort and money and risk to like infiltrate or be in these mountainous areas?

00:28:33:22 - 00:28:35:18
Paul
Yeah. So,

00:28:35:20 - 00:28:47:11
Paul
That's a great question. And I think it's important. And you mentioned half of it, which is infiltrate, most countries borders. Our mountainous, I think it's something like 70 to 80% of all land borders between countries

00:28:47:14 - 00:28:49:14
Kyle
It's like either it's either a mountain or a giant river

00:28:49:20 - 00:28:54:03
Paul
Exactly. So, the ones that are mountainous, you have to be able to infiltrate, if.

00:28:54:03 - 00:28:55:01
Paul
That's the country on.

00:28:55:01 - 00:28:56:00
Paul
The other side is somewhere that you.

00:28:56:00 - 00:28:57:11
Paul
Need to go, you need to be able to get there.

00:28:57:18 - 00:29:05:21
Paul
And especially in today's, you know, modern technology. Surveillance is as ubiquitous. It's everywhere.

00:29:05:24 - 00:29:06:09
Paul
You know, there like.

00:29:06:09 - 00:29:07:28
Paul
The facial recognition.

00:29:08:00 - 00:29:08:06
Paul
You.

00:29:08:06 - 00:29:12:11
Paul
Can't fly into a country as, like a and that's FGM.

00:29:12:13 - 00:29:17:22
Paul
And not have anybody know you're there. So if you have to do it where? No, where you want, nobody to know you're there.

00:29:17:22 - 00:29:28:28
Paul
A lot of times that's going to be through mountainous terrain. But that's the first piece is infiltration. The second piece, I think is way more nuanced. And I could talk forever on this. So I'll start talking if you want me to stop, just like give me a signal.

00:29:29:00 - 00:29:32:18
Paul
But, a lot of these areas, that are.

00:29:32:18 - 00:29:34:18
Paul
Being fought over in the mountains.

00:29:34:20 - 00:29:36:25
Paul
Are,

00:29:36:28 - 00:29:38:11
Paul
They're communities of people.

00:29:38:14 - 00:29:38:18
Paul
Who.

00:29:38:18 - 00:29:39:19
Paul
Live in those mountains.

00:29:39:19 - 00:29:41:12
Paul
That's they grow up there.

00:29:41:12 - 00:29:47:07
Paul
Their ancestors are there, their tribe has been there for hundreds of years. Their clans, whatever it might be.

00:29:47:09 - 00:29:48:18
Paul
So they're.

00:29:48:18 - 00:29:51:23
Paul
Just mountain people who live there. That's their community. That's their.

00:29:51:23 - 00:29:54:25
Paul
Community. There's something that.

00:29:54:27 - 00:29:57:25
Paul
We call a military tactics, like the tyranny of distance.

00:29:57:28 - 00:30:00:14
Paul
Just by virtue of being a community in.

00:30:00:14 - 00:30:03:03
Paul
A hard to get place that has very rugged terrain.

00:30:03:08 - 00:30:06:27
Paul
Very, hard to get to terrain. They're often very.

00:30:06:27 - 00:30:10:16
Paul
Marginalized by the state that controls that territory.

00:30:10:19 - 00:30:10:27
Paul
And so.

00:30:10:27 - 00:30:13:21
Paul
These marginalized people have all sorts of grievances with the.

00:30:13:21 - 00:30:14:16
Paul
Government.

00:30:14:18 - 00:30:30:10
Paul
And they, they don't get the essential services they need because it's so hard to get things there. You know, sometimes the roads are closed for months at a time from snow or something, and they're literally on their own. And so in that can get there. And so what that ends up becoming is,

00:30:30:13 - 00:30:33:15
Paul
Like a hotbed of,

00:30:33:17 - 00:30:36:10
Paul
Potential insurgencies, forces.

00:30:36:13 - 00:30:36:23
Paul
Rugged.

00:30:36:23 - 00:30:43:13
Paul
Hard to get terrain where now, insurgents can come in, they can occupy that, they can take advantage of the local community.

00:30:43:16 - 00:30:44:23
Paul
And,

00:30:44:25 - 00:30:46:04
Paul
Fight the state.

00:30:46:07 - 00:30:47:11
Paul
Fight the with.

00:30:47:11 - 00:31:04:19
Paul
Their own people. They're essentially safe havens. So I mentioned the FAQ in Colombia. That's exactly what happened in Colombia. These are hard to reach communities. The FAQ comes in, they control, they take over the farming. It becomes now like narcotics, they take over illegal mining operations to fund. And the state can't do anything because they physically.

00:31:04:19 - 00:31:05:10
Paul
Can't get there.

00:31:05:17 - 00:31:08:20
Paul
Colombia is one example. Take Yemen as another example.

00:31:08:22 - 00:31:10:06
Paul
And, and then.

00:31:10:06 - 00:31:19:03
Paul
The Middle East, what the Houthis have done is they've basically moved, they started moving all of their operations to the mountains because there's communities there that they could.

00:31:19:03 - 00:31:19:19
Paul
Control.

00:31:19:26 - 00:31:22:01
Paul
Because the Yemeni state didn't have the.

00:31:22:01 - 00:31:23:15
Paul
Capability to.

00:31:23:22 - 00:31:24:19
Paul
Stop these rebel.

00:31:24:19 - 00:31:25:15
Paul
Groups.

00:31:25:17 - 00:31:41:11
Paul
And so, when I talk rebel rebels, when I talk insurgents, that's what Special Forces deals with. It's unconventional warfare to, defeat insurgencies to defeat rebels. Or if that rebel is like a.

00:31:41:13 - 00:31:43:23
Paul
Pro democratic rebellion.

00:31:43:23 - 00:32:01:14
Paul
That is trying to overthrow like an authoritarian state was, then that would be a time when Special Forces comes in to do, combat unconventional warfare, to empower those rebels and to help them fight against the state or in the counterinsurgency example, help the state fight against the, rebels.

00:32:01:17 - 00:32:25:23
Kyle
when I first understood this concept, it was that we were coming into these areas and be like, hey, you guys aren't really helped by your country. And we're also kind of at odds with this country. So let us help you, help us. But then there's the also, the example of these people are in the mountains and then rebels who are fighting democracy, are going to utilize these people, take over their

00:32:25:29 - 00:32:29:01
Paul
or recruit them. Yeah.

00:32:29:04 - 00:32:30:01
Paul
Yeah.

00:32:30:03 - 00:32:31:25
Paul
So these communities are often just.

00:32:31:25 - 00:32:33:28
Paul
Like you know like.

00:32:33:28 - 00:32:36:29
Paul
Choosing the lesser of two evils at this point.

00:32:37:01 - 00:32:40:11
Paul
They don't have a choice.

00:32:40:14 - 00:32:47:17
Paul
Exactly. And so that's sort of yeah. That, that delineates I guess the two types of.

00:32:47:20 - 00:32:48:14
Paul
You know, whether we're fighting.

00:32:48:18 - 00:32:56:18
Paul
We're going into a location to fight an insurgency or going into a location to help the insurgency. And that's sort of like the two use cases.

00:32:56:21 - 00:32:57:13
Paul
And then.

00:32:57:16 - 00:32:59:26
Paul
You know, we talk borders a little bit.

00:32:59:29 - 00:33:00:02
Paul
The.

00:33:00:02 - 00:33:00:29
Paul
Border lines are constantly.

00:33:00:29 - 00:33:01:17
Paul
Moving.

00:33:01:19 - 00:33:05:27
Paul
It turns out the mountains are really important. And just terms of natural resources.

00:33:06:00 - 00:33:06:03
Paul
You.

00:33:06:03 - 00:33:10:13
Paul
Know, they're the headwaters for most of the drinking water, like the Tibetan plain, as an example.

00:33:10:13 - 00:33:12:19
Paul
Like it feeds like,

00:33:12:21 - 00:33:13:25
Paul
It serves 3 billion.

00:33:13:25 - 00:33:15:13
Paul
People.

00:33:15:16 - 00:33:31:28
Paul
Exactly. So whoever controls the upstream flow tends to control what happens downstream. So there's constantly, fights. In fact, just this last June, there another war between Indian, Pakistan over the Seattle and Glacier.

00:33:32:00 - 00:33:58:14
Paul
Because the Seattle and Glacier in the, in Kashmir, it's always been contested, again, very rugged terrain, hard to get to, but that's the headwaters of a number of critical rivers to India and Pakistan. So whoever controls that can potentially, you know, cut off water supply because humanitarian crises. Crisises. And so that's, you know, there's a lot of reports of, different actors, including China, who do this,

00:33:58:16 - 00:33:58:29
Paul
You know, in the.

00:33:58:29 - 00:34:04:14
Paul
Himalayas. And they can use that as a state of influence to then get the, the.

00:34:04:14 - 00:34:05:11
Paul
Lower the.

00:34:05:11 - 00:34:12:28
Paul
They're called lower riparian states. So the countries that are lower, lower down basically to do whatever they say because they're controlling, you know, the spigot.

00:34:13:01 - 00:34:20:03
Kyle
But they're not advertising that they're controlling spigot. They're not saying we're doing it. They're like, are they just blatantly or like,

00:34:20:05 - 00:34:21:17
Paul
sometimes I mean.

00:34:21:19 - 00:34:29:03
Paul
They because there's so, so much, such a lack of infrastructure in these places.

00:34:29:05 - 00:34:30:22
Paul
Getting construction equipment to go build a.

00:34:30:22 - 00:34:31:23
Paul
Dam as.

00:34:31:23 - 00:34:34:28
Paul
An example, like that's you getting access to that area.

00:34:35:01 - 00:34:35:06
Paul
And.

00:34:35:06 - 00:34:41:02
Paul
Then then, there's reports, particularly in, Nepal and some areas of Myanmar.

00:34:41:02 - 00:34:43:03
Paul
Where, you know, the border.

00:34:43:03 - 00:34:52:02
Paul
Pylons because there's not like a red line on the ground or anything. The pilots just kind of keep moving. Or maybe it was on this side of the river once, and now you come back couple years later. So on this side of the river.

00:34:52:05 - 00:34:53:26
Paul
Now, this community is.

00:34:53:29 - 00:35:00:16
Paul
Chinese, even though has been Nepali for a long time. So there's a lot of ways that, these countries that.

00:35:00:16 - 00:35:01:21
Paul
Have rugged.

00:35:01:21 - 00:35:02:16
Paul
Mountainous terrains that their.

00:35:02:16 - 00:35:05:09
Paul
Borders can encroach.

00:35:05:12 - 00:35:09:28
Kyle
I mean, if we're talking about a river even taking one side to the other, now you control that entire river

00:35:10:01 - 00:35:10:19
Paul
Or you build a dam.

00:35:10:19 - 00:35:22:06
Paul
That reroutes the river. You control everything on that side. Yeah. So there's, that's what we would refer to as, like, hybrid warfare. It's it's a form of warfare, because it is achieving a geopolitical end.

00:35:22:08 - 00:35:24:05
Paul
But you're not doing it by, you.

00:35:24:05 - 00:35:35:25
Paul
Know, guys shooting each other. It's not something that's done through, conventional military thought, but it's warfare below the threshold of violence. They're changing the boundaries without there actually being a war.

00:35:35:28 - 00:35:36:13
Paul
Yeah.

00:35:36:15 - 00:35:40:21
Paul
And so that that hybrid warfare, that gray zone is where special operations.

00:35:40:24 - 00:35:41:04
Paul
Yeah.

00:35:41:05 - 00:35:42:12
Paul
That's where we make our paychecks.

00:35:42:12 - 00:35:43:22
Paul
So

00:35:43:25 - 00:35:55:27
Kyle
Now, I would say that it's probably more cost effective to take locals in an area that you're trying to

00:35:56:00 - 00:36:03:08
Kyle
train them with the skills of like, weapons, how to

00:36:03:10 - 00:36:04:19
Paul
Yeah.

00:36:04:22 - 00:36:12:06
Kyle
to do all the military things. But then you're not having to train an American soldier. How to live, how

00:36:12:09 - 00:36:13:12
Paul
Yeah.

00:36:13:15 - 00:36:14:10
Paul
That's a great point.

00:36:14:12 - 00:36:18:03
Paul
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:36:18:05 - 00:36:24:05
Kyle
It's from the article you read. It seems like this is kind of something that you've been promoting or something that might be already

00:36:24:08 - 00:36:32:23
Kyle
How much of that is being employed in the military now? And how do you see the future kind of going? Do you see this being the better direction, the more cost effective direction?

00:36:32:23 - 00:36:36:19
Kyle
And actually having more Americans being trained to be worldwide, like

00:36:36:21 - 00:36:38:22
Paul
Yeah.

00:36:38:24 - 00:36:44:04
Paul
Yeah. That that's a really good question. And I think what it comes.

00:36:44:04 - 00:36:46:05
Paul
Down to is.

00:36:46:07 - 00:36:47:17
Paul
Like the.

00:36:47:20 - 00:36:48:20
Paul
There's a maxim that.

00:36:48:20 - 00:36:49:28
Paul
Mountain

00:36:50:01 - 00:36:57:29
Paul
Mountain operators and then mountain guides around the world, I think this might even originate from the Austrians. But they always say it's a lot easier to train,

00:36:58:01 - 00:36:59:12
Paul
Mountain guide how.

00:36:59:12 - 00:36:59:21
Paul
To be a.

00:36:59:21 - 00:37:00:07
Paul
Soldier.

00:37:00:10 - 00:37:09:20
Paul
Than it is to train a soldier. How to be a mountain guide. Because the mountain guide training, as you probably know, takes years, sometimes decades. It's essentially a PhD.

00:37:09:22 - 00:37:12:01
Paul
In mountaineering,

00:37:12:03 - 00:37:15:22
Paul
Whereas you can teach somebody how to operate a rifle effectively.

00:37:15:22 - 00:37:18:02
Paul
And like a few weeks.

00:37:18:04 - 00:37:21:14
Paul
And so it is much easier to train.

00:37:21:17 - 00:37:21:20
Paul
A.

00:37:21:20 - 00:37:22:00
Paul
Person.

00:37:22:00 - 00:37:22:19
Paul
Who.

00:37:22:22 - 00:37:25:11
Paul
Lives, breathes, is a mountain person how to be a soldier.

00:37:25:11 - 00:37:26:29
Paul
Than the other way around.

00:37:27:01 - 00:37:28:25
Paul
And that's something that.

00:37:28:27 - 00:37:33:27
Paul
We do do we do it often?

00:37:33:29 - 00:37:40:20
Paul
I think, there's one particular example we can talk about. You know, this is from, the 60s.

00:37:40:23 - 00:37:46:13
Paul
St circus was the name of the operation. It was a, operation led by the the CIA.

00:37:46:15 - 00:37:49:24
Paul
Actually, when, China, invaded.

00:37:49:26 - 00:37:51:17
Paul
Tibet.

00:37:51:19 - 00:37:51:25
Paul
We.

00:37:51:25 - 00:37:52:20
Paul
Would take Tibetan.

00:37:52:20 - 00:37:54:06
Paul
People from I.

00:37:54:06 - 00:38:02:25
Paul
Mean, the Tibetan Plateau is I think the average elevation is 14,000. So it's very high altitude. A lot of, mountains, especially as you get closer to Nepal.

00:38:02:28 - 00:38:03:24
Paul
They would.

00:38:03:27 - 00:38:08:22
Paul
Take exfiltrate these Tibetans from the country we trained. They would train them actually.

00:38:08:22 - 00:38:10:19
Paul
At,

00:38:10:21 - 00:38:13:08
Paul
Camp Hill, which is in the mountains of Colorado.

00:38:13:10 - 00:38:15:10
Paul
And then they would train them for.

00:38:15:10 - 00:38:16:21
Paul
Like a month or two and.

00:38:16:24 - 00:38:17:29
Paul
You know, how to conduct.

00:38:17:29 - 00:38:31:07
Paul
Sabotages, how to, operator, a weapon, how to operate a radio, these types of things. And then they would parachute them back into Tibet to then fight the Chinese. This is a model that, we see.

00:38:31:09 - 00:38:32:06
Paul
Very.

00:38:32:10 - 00:38:40:16
Paul
Prevalent prevalently today in the sense that, the American people, rightfully so, like most of the conflicts that are happening around the world, you don't want Americans to go die.

00:38:40:16 - 00:38:41:20
Paul
There.

00:38:41:22 - 00:38:45:17
Paul
And so, the training, the advise in assisting.

00:38:45:19 - 00:38:47:15
Paul
Remotely.

00:38:47:17 - 00:38:56:10
Paul
Is something that, something that does happen today. Obviously the, the use case against this, it would be like Bay of pigs.

00:38:56:13 - 00:38:57:23
Paul
As a,

00:38:57:26 - 00:38:59:27
Paul
Political scientist or historian.

00:38:59:29 - 00:39:00:08
Paul
Would.

00:39:00:09 - 00:39:06:01
Paul
Talk about often where, like, you trained a bunch of expat Cubans and I think it was Honduras or Guatemala.

00:39:06:03 - 00:39:06:21
Paul
And then they.

00:39:06:21 - 00:39:15:18
Paul
Dropped them off in Cuba, and then they were all immediately killed and captured. So it doesn't necessarily work everywhere.

00:39:15:20 - 00:39:16:11
Paul
Yeah.

00:39:16:14 - 00:39:26:13
Paul
So there there is absolutely rest of that. And there's the costs associated. Absolutely. So exactly. And so there's.

00:39:26:15 - 00:39:27:00
Paul
Definitely.

00:39:27:00 - 00:39:34:14
Paul
Different models that you, that you can use depending on the geopolitical situation of a country and the partners and their capabilities as a military or lack.

00:39:34:14 - 00:39:35:20
Paul
Thereof. There's.

00:39:35:20 - 00:39:44:01
Paul
A whole menu of options that special operators can use.

00:39:44:04 - 00:39:56:20
Kyle
much more loyal to their country when put into a hostage situation or something. Whereas maybe like a local that was trained by some country they went to, then they're told to go fight against them. I'm sure it's probably a much easier decision.

00:39:56:20 - 00:39:57:19
Kyle
Maybe.

00:39:57:21 - 00:39:58:01
Paul
Yeah.

00:39:58:01 - 00:40:07:28
Paul
I mean, there is very drastically. And then you're getting into, like, what is people's motivations? At what, what is the line at which somebody is willing to give their life for the country?

00:40:08:01 - 00:40:14:02
Paul
Does that idea align with what the U.S interest is for that country? Like, is that something we want to promote?

00:40:14:04 - 00:40:15:06
Paul
So yeah, it is.

00:40:15:07 - 00:40:22:01
Paul
It gets very, difficult to discern, especially for, for planners at that strategic level.

00:40:22:04 - 00:40:22:17
Paul
But.

00:40:22:17 - 00:40:27:05
Paul
When it comes down to the bottom line is if the planners if the decision makers decide.

00:40:27:08 - 00:40:27:13
Paul
We.

00:40:27:13 - 00:40:35:24
Paul
Want somebody to train these people or we want somebody to infiltrate unseen and do a unilateral action of special reconnaissance to observe this very important thing. And the.

00:40:35:24 - 00:40:36:15
Paul
Spot.

00:40:36:18 - 00:40:39:02
Paul
And that spots in the mountains. Then you have to have somebody trained.

00:40:39:02 - 00:40:40:03
Paul
To do it.

00:40:40:06 - 00:40:43:14
Paul
And so whether you're guiding someone who's untrained or you're doing it yourself as a mountain.

00:40:43:14 - 00:40:45:28
Paul
Force, that's a capability that you have to have.

00:40:46:01 - 00:40:46:16
Kyle
yeah.

00:40:46:18 - 00:40:52:29
Kyle
In your article, you mentioned, I see if I can pull this quote up through.

00:40:53:01 - 00:40:55:04
Kyle
You said,

00:40:55:06 - 00:41:04:20
Kyle
severe weather and physical barriers of mountain regions give rise to mental toughness, self-sufficiency, insularity and talent for improvization improvization.

00:41:04:27 - 00:41:15:12
Kyle
Talk to me a little bit more about your philosophy behind, like, what kind of people the mountains breed. And then I'll

00:41:15:15 - 00:41:17:13
Paul
Sure. Yeah.

00:41:17:15 - 00:41:25:00
Paul
I mean, that's kind of like an anthropological question, and I'm, like, not an anthropologist. I'm like a guy who has made some anecdotal observations.

00:41:25:03 - 00:41:25:10
Paul
And.

00:41:25:12 - 00:41:26:01
Paul
And I find.

00:41:26:01 - 00:41:26:13
Paul
That.

00:41:26:15 - 00:41:28:13
Paul
You know, those can be, somewhat.

00:41:28:15 - 00:41:31:05
Paul
Revealing,

00:41:31:07 - 00:41:37:00
Paul
I think mountain communities in general. And there's been studies that have supported this across even like the American West.

00:41:37:02 - 00:41:38:24
Paul
That you have, you have,

00:41:38:27 - 00:41:41:12
Paul
A very small community that operates.

00:41:41:14 - 00:41:41:20
Paul
As.

00:41:41:20 - 00:41:42:13
Paul
They operate.

00:41:42:16 - 00:41:44:03
Paul
That they live their their.

00:41:44:03 - 00:41:46:06
Paul
Daily lives is just harder.

00:41:46:08 - 00:41:49:00
Paul
You know,

00:41:49:03 - 00:41:53:12
Paul
Because they're further away. They can't just, like, run across the street to Home Depot and pick up something.

00:41:53:12 - 00:41:54:20
Paul
To fix their.

00:41:54:20 - 00:42:01:22
Paul
House, or they can't hire a guy to come out and, like, fix their plumbing. They have to, like, go through the garage and see what they have to fix it, because they know that they're not gonna be able to get.

00:42:01:22 - 00:42:02:25
Paul
To the.

00:42:02:26 - 00:42:04:15
Paul
Nearest town anytime.

00:42:04:17 - 00:42:06:17
Paul
So I think that remoteness,

00:42:06:19 - 00:42:08:15
Paul
And like, it just creates somebody who's.

00:42:08:15 - 00:42:09:07
Paul
Who's hearty.

00:42:09:07 - 00:42:09:18
Paul
And I guess.

00:42:09:18 - 00:42:11:28
Paul
I'm a little maybe I'm a.

00:42:11:28 - 00:42:16:05
Paul
Little egotistical. I don't know about this, but like in my family in particular.

00:42:16:07 - 00:42:19:20
Paul
Like, my grandfather, he, like.

00:42:19:23 - 00:42:35:01
Paul
In the mountains of Colorado on the swatch. He in the 80s just decided he wanted to build a cabin. And so he goes in the cabin, the couple, he goes into the, into the woods with a couple friends. They found, their summerville breaks down, they turn the engine into a sawmill, and they cut down the trees.

00:42:35:03 - 00:42:36:15
Paul
They they.

00:42:36:18 - 00:42:36:27
Paul
You know.

00:42:36:27 - 00:42:42:01
Paul
They fill everything. They completely make all the boards, and they build a cabin.

00:42:42:03 - 00:42:58:26
Paul
And he lived there until he died, you know, for 30 years. And that cabin is still in our family, and we would grow up and, you, you know, that's how I learned to ski is like my grandfather would tell me behind a snowmobile. And so I stood up, basically. And then you're like, all right, now we're going up there.

00:42:58:26 - 00:43:06:04
Paul
And he points up to like, Tin Pass or something, and you drive me up there in snow. But I was like, I'll meet you at the bottom. And it's like.

00:43:06:07 - 00:43:07:13
Paul
When you when you're brought.

00:43:07:13 - 00:43:13:17
Paul
Up in that sort of environment. I think that just,

00:43:13:19 - 00:43:15:03
Paul
Things that are hard.

00:43:15:05 - 00:43:18:19
Paul
Or like you're once you've done that really hard thing, then you're.

00:43:18:19 - 00:43:20:02
Paul
Much more willing to do that just.

00:43:20:04 - 00:43:22:09
Paul
The rest of your life.

00:43:22:12 - 00:43:26:00
Paul
And so I think these mountain communities, that's that's what they breed.

00:43:26:03 - 00:43:28:14
Paul
Yeah. I'm using, you know, my.

00:43:28:16 - 00:43:38:01
Paul
Example, but there's plenty of other like Jason, you mentioned he grew up on the western slope of Colorado. Same thing. Very small town. Had to be self-sufficient.

00:43:38:03 - 00:43:42:21
Paul
You know, people who are doing, like outcasts.

00:43:42:24 - 00:43:55:09
Paul
Because that's how they eat. So those people I think, know especially, considering, you know, the historical case I brought up, like the first Special Service force. People know that. People know that people in the mountains.

00:43:55:12 - 00:43:56:10
Paul
They're harder.

00:43:56:12 - 00:44:02:25
Paul
And if you want people to be able to be hardy, then it helps if they come from the mountains.

00:44:02:28 - 00:44:04:09
Paul
Right.

00:44:04:12 - 00:44:07:14
Paul
Absolutely.

00:44:07:16 - 00:44:11:28
Paul
Yeah.

00:44:12:00 - 00:44:13:09
Paul
Yeah.

00:44:13:12 - 00:44:14:07
Paul
And yeah my, my.

00:44:14:07 - 00:44:17:24
Paul
Example is like a very Americanized dramatized version of that.

00:44:17:24 - 00:44:18:11
Paul
But like you.

00:44:18:11 - 00:44:19:18
Paul
Look anywhere else in.

00:44:19:18 - 00:44:22:03
Paul
The world, you know, where.

00:44:22:06 - 00:44:23:19
Paul
These communities, that's just their.

00:44:23:19 - 00:44:25:13
Paul
Life.

00:44:25:15 - 00:44:34:08
Paul
Those people make exceptional partners. Not because they're not slowing your down. They're not a liability for you. You're actually a liability for them.

00:44:34:10 - 00:44:36:05
Paul
I mean, take like.

00:44:36:08 - 00:44:36:27
Paul
I mean, we we.

00:44:36:27 - 00:44:38:12
Paul
Talk about mountain warfare in the American.

00:44:38:12 - 00:44:39:15
Paul
Army.

00:44:39:18 - 00:44:41:14
Paul
But like, the Norwegians are.

00:44:41:16 - 00:44:44:28
Paul
In particular, and the Swedes even.

00:44:45:00 - 00:44:46:07
Paul
They have, like.

00:44:46:09 - 00:44:53:01
Paul
All of these great, exercises, you know, they go to the field, they do all this military training.

00:44:53:03 - 00:45:02:13
Paul
It's in Norway and Sweden and it's very cold. It's very snowy. They're doing over snow movement. They're surviving. It's not mountain warfare to them.

00:45:02:13 - 00:45:05:28
Paul
It's warfare. You see what I mean? Like, they grow.

00:45:05:28 - 00:45:09:23
Paul
Up. They they just do it. And so we, as.

00:45:09:23 - 00:45:10:23
Paul
You know, the.

00:45:10:23 - 00:45:11:19
Paul
Global police or.

00:45:11:19 - 00:45:13:11
Paul
Whatever, like if we are.

00:45:13:11 - 00:45:20:06
Paul
Going to have partners in these, in the, in these areas and not expect just to be like military tourists and have them hold our hands through these.

00:45:20:06 - 00:45:21:26
Paul
Things, then we have to.

00:45:21:26 - 00:45:22:12
Paul
Be able to.

00:45:22:13 - 00:45:23:11
Paul
Be able to to.

00:45:23:14 - 00:45:25:28
Paul
Operate at that same threshold as those people who live.

00:45:25:28 - 00:45:31:19
Paul
There. Exactly.

00:45:31:22 - 00:45:38:08
Paul
Yeah.

00:45:38:11 - 00:45:39:22
Paul
Yeah, yeah.

00:45:39:25 - 00:45:43:01
Paul
You.

00:45:43:04 - 00:45:44:11
Paul
Exactly.

00:45:44:14 - 00:45:46:06
Kyle
What about so the second quote,

00:45:46:06 - 00:46:00:10
Kyle
such, remote and archaic communities can be enormously important to the future stability of the world. Claiming the mountain is friend to those who want to elude or destroy authority the revolutionary, the poppy grower, the jihad jihadi, only to name a few.

00:46:00:13 - 00:46:17:13
Kyle
it kind of alluded to the fact that so not only does it build like hardiness, it also builds like fierce, uncivilized and people who are resistant to central authority and or a predisposition for violence. What do you think that is?

00:46:17:13 - 00:46:23:16
Kyle
And are there examples of communities in the mountains that aren't kind of

00:46:23:18 - 00:46:24:00
Paul
Yeah.

00:46:24:00 - 00:46:26:21
Paul
The Swiss are a great example of those who are not.

00:46:26:23 - 00:46:29:14
Paul
Been predisposed to violence. They've been very peaceful for a long time. And they.

00:46:29:16 - 00:46:30:21
Paul
Have. Yeah. And some.

00:46:30:21 - 00:46:31:19
Paul
Of the most beautiful mountains in the.

00:46:31:19 - 00:46:32:13
Paul
World.

00:46:32:16 - 00:46:36:01
Paul
So they're certainly not, it's not something that's definitional. That's not.

00:46:36:03 - 00:46:36:18
Paul
I mean, that.

00:46:36:20 - 00:46:40:16
Paul
Prescribed all mountain people.

00:46:40:19 - 00:46:43:03
Paul
That I think that.

00:46:43:03 - 00:47:00:22
Paul
Idea is not my own. That is from, Judith Matt Laws, who wrote the book, The Moors in the mountains. And what she, she observes in all sorts of mountainous areas, particularly in Albania, in Mexico, Colombia. We already talked about, Pakistan.

00:47:00:24 - 00:47:01:12
Paul
Like all.

00:47:01:12 - 00:47:02:29
Paul
Of these people who live there,

00:47:03:01 - 00:47:03:26
Paul
Are.

00:47:03:28 - 00:47:09:02
Paul
Because these communities are so, close knit and, and held and so resilient.

00:47:09:05 - 00:47:10:21
Paul
They have a much.

00:47:10:23 - 00:47:24:00
Paul
Lower threshold for violence to protect that than do people in the city. And so, her book, which I highly recommend, if anybody is interested, is to read, that's more of a, a case study, anecdotal. Assessment.

00:47:24:03 - 00:47:24:09
Paul
What I'm.

00:47:24:09 - 00:47:25:28
Paul
Trying to do in my research is.

00:47:26:00 - 00:47:26:26
Paul
At,

00:47:26:28 - 00:47:28:21
Paul
For my master's is back that up with.

00:47:28:21 - 00:47:29:16
Paul
Numbers.

00:47:29:18 - 00:47:39:25
Paul
And I think, that's been particularly interesting just in the last few months, as I've, I've, I've learned that it's not enough just to say, oh, this is a mountainous country. We need to train for mountain warfare there.

00:47:39:27 - 00:47:40:11
Paul
And what I've been.

00:47:40:11 - 00:47:43:01
Paul
Looking at is, pairing what.

00:47:43:01 - 00:47:44:22
Paul
A mountain. What.

00:47:44:22 - 00:47:49:13
Paul
Mountainous is like definitionally from like, USGS definitions of this is a mountain.

00:47:49:13 - 00:47:50:04
Paul
Area.

00:47:50:07 - 00:47:53:10
Paul
Which has to do with relief, slope, angle, density, that sort.

00:47:53:10 - 00:47:57:25
Paul
Of thing. Overlaying that with, a.

00:47:57:25 - 00:48:01:21
Paul
Database of violent conflict called the Armed.

00:48:01:23 - 00:48:01:29
Paul
Act.

00:48:02:02 - 00:48:11:03
Paul
Led the armed conflict, something database that's in that but accolade basically pinpoints, geographically.

00:48:11:03 - 00:48:12:18
Paul
Where any.

00:48:12:20 - 00:48:14:00
Paul
Violent conflict happens in the.

00:48:14:00 - 00:48:14:10
Paul
World.

00:48:14:17 - 00:48:17:00
Paul
Whether it's, somebody shot by.

00:48:17:00 - 00:48:20:00
Paul
A

00:48:20:02 - 00:48:21:08
Paul
Smuggler or.

00:48:21:08 - 00:48:22:00
Paul
Somebody.

00:48:22:00 - 00:48:31:02
Paul
Who's battle like, or a country that's battling another country, recorded events and.

00:48:31:04 - 00:48:33:11
Paul
That's true. And, and actually.

00:48:33:14 - 00:48:38:29
Paul
They do a remarkable job of actually getting not just like what is officially reported, but then what's reported by people.

00:48:38:29 - 00:48:40:03
Paul
On, like, in.

00:48:40:03 - 00:48:40:12
Paul
Those.

00:48:40:12 - 00:48:41:01
Paul
Areas.

00:48:41:03 - 00:48:44:10
Paul
So their reports are very reliable.

00:48:44:12 - 00:48:44:17
Paul
But.

00:48:44:17 - 00:48:45:08
Paul
What I found.

00:48:45:08 - 00:48:46:10
Paul
In these.

00:48:46:10 - 00:48:53:28
Paul
Particularly contentious states is that, there is a higher it's.

00:48:54:00 - 00:48:54:17
Paul
Let's say a.

00:48:54:17 - 00:49:08:04
Paul
Country has, 33% mountains. A third of the country is mountainous. It stands to reason that, most of the population centers are probably not in the mountains and probably on the coast. So its answer is that most of the violent conflict would probably.

00:49:08:04 - 00:49:09:20
Paul
Be, lower.

00:49:09:20 - 00:49:10:28
Paul
Than 33% in the.

00:49:10:28 - 00:49:13:05
Paul
Mountains. Right?

00:49:13:07 - 00:49:26:04
Paul
It would probably follow the density of the population. Well, that's true in some cases. I found that in most cases, the violent conflict is actually in the mountainous areas. So we'll use Iraq as an example. Just in the last four years,

00:49:26:07 - 00:49:27:03
Paul
Only.

00:49:27:06 - 00:49:30:13
Paul
9% of the country is mountainous.

00:49:30:15 - 00:49:30:28
Paul
The part.

00:49:30:28 - 00:49:38:19
Paul
That is mountainous is the Zagros Mountains on the border, the northeast border between Iraq and Iran. In the last four years.

00:49:38:21 - 00:49:41:16
Paul
67% of all of their.

00:49:41:18 - 00:49:48:25
Paul
Armed violent conflict has happened in that 9% mountains.

00:49:48:27 - 00:49:49:22
Paul
Well, there's border tensions.

00:49:49:22 - 00:49:53:07
Paul
That's, you know, where the Kurds, they live. And there's always been like.

00:49:53:07 - 00:49:56:10
Paul
An ethnic,

00:49:56:12 - 00:50:00:18
Paul
Dispute is putting it lightly between the Kurds and the Iraqis.

00:50:00:20 - 00:50:01:12
Paul
And so it is.

00:50:01:12 - 00:50:17:05
Paul
It is it does depend on, you know, what's going on politically in that country. So there's a number in Yemen, as we've talked about before, is another one like that? I think Yemen is like 40 middle low, 40%, mountainous, but, 50 over 50% of.

00:50:17:05 - 00:50:18:12
Paul
Their, their.

00:50:18:15 - 00:50:24:01
Paul
Conflicts are in the mountains. There's a lot of other weird cases, particularly in Africa, like Cameroon.

00:50:24:01 - 00:50:25:01
Paul
And,

00:50:25:03 - 00:50:31:20
Paul
Sudan, which have very small numbers of mountains, but it's in those mountainous areas where.

00:50:31:22 - 00:50:57:25
Paul
Like, Islamic terrorists are starting to find safe havens, those border areas that we described there, specific to Cameroon, they're coming in across a border that is like friendly to Muslim, terrorists. And they're trying to encroach into Cameroon and those mountains. So there's like a huge geopolitical aspect of it. But the data does show that most of the violent conflict that's happening and these, I, I looked at that like the top 20, conflict states.

00:50:57:27 - 00:50:58:06
Paul
That.

00:50:58:09 - 00:51:00:00
Paul
The violence is happening in the mountains.

00:51:00:03 - 00:51:00:09
Paul
Which is.

00:51:00:09 - 00:51:01:11
Paul
Really interesting.

00:51:01:14 - 00:51:20:03
Kyle
lot a larger portion of that because the mountains just in the nature of how complex they are and how hard they are to to live in and how are they are to be, it's easier for people who have mal intent to stay away from persecution, I guess, or judgment or, monitoring by the state or by the government.

00:51:20:03 - 00:51:20:22
Kyle
They can hide.

00:51:20:26 - 00:51:21:04
Paul
Yeah.

00:51:21:10 - 00:51:22:25
Paul
It's that tyranny of distance we talked.

00:51:22:25 - 00:51:24:11
Paul
About earlier that like.

00:51:24:11 - 00:51:30:04
Paul
It is just so much hard to, governance. And so the governance in these hard to get areas is so low.

00:51:30:05 - 00:51:31:29
Paul
I mean,

00:51:32:01 - 00:51:48:12
Paul
Some, some researchers look at, like the night sky index as an example. You know, you've seen like the pictures of, the globe at night and seeing, like, where all the lights are, like, that's where the people are. Well, and some of these mountainous, hard to reach areas, there are no lights. And that's indicative that there is no infrastructure there.

00:51:48:15 - 00:51:54:12
Paul
There's no infrastructure. There's probably not governance. There's not state funded schools, there's not, you know, state.

00:51:54:12 - 00:51:58:05
Paul
Funded, anything.

00:51:58:12 - 00:52:01:28
Paul
And so that's when, like, a terrorist organization can come into that.

00:52:01:28 - 00:52:03:02
Paul
Community and.

00:52:03:08 - 00:52:05:17
Paul
They provide that service in some cases to the.

00:52:05:17 - 00:52:06:08
Paul
People.

00:52:06:10 - 00:52:16:06
Paul
And now the people are supporting the terrorists because they have these services provided to them, which they're not necessarily supporting the terrorist because they believe in their cause.

00:52:16:08 - 00:52:18:20
Paul
But like, hey, I have power in.

00:52:18:20 - 00:52:21:27
Paul
My house for the first time. Like, that's pretty cool.

00:52:22:00 - 00:52:22:05
Paul
And.

00:52:22:05 - 00:52:22:17
Paul
So.

00:52:22:21 - 00:52:24:00
Paul
That, you know, that's a.

00:52:24:02 - 00:52:32:24
Paul
Maybe an exaggeration of an example, but that's, that's what's happening. I realize that this is a climbing podcast, and we've.

00:52:32:24 - 00:52:34:12
Paul
Like, we've moved far.

00:52:34:15 - 00:52:40:21
Paul
From climbing just by virtue of me being, passionate about this stuff. So I appreciate the questions.

00:52:40:24 - 00:52:43:22
Kyle
have, asked you these questions if I didn't want you to talk about them.

00:52:43:24 - 00:52:53:24
Kyle
I have one more thing on the the type of people. And we had talked about, like, we just talked about kind of the, the one side of the coin, like fierce and civilized resistance to central authority.

00:52:53:27 - 00:53:15:07
Kyle
I think there's definitely and I've had some personal examples of this is like the opposite, the peaceful people. I went to, Peru once I went or this last year I went to Juarez. And we went hiking in this one, canyon all the way up to this lake, called Shea up. And, it was the whole valley, eight mile long valley was this long pasture of cows.

00:53:15:07 - 00:53:33:06
Kyle
There were cows everywhere. And we kept seeing these, like, archaic buildings of, like, stone and like old fences. We're like, man, these have probably been here, you know, for centuries. Like, I wonder who lived here. And sure as shit as we walk back, like on the way out, we had walked past this like house that was made of giant boulders.

00:53:33:06 - 00:53:48:27
Kyle
And I was like, man, this thing's got to be here forever. We walk back, the dude is in there, he's living there. He's living there in this house. And he said his family has lived there for centuries, and the government doesn't know that he's there. Or at least that's what he says. But I snapped a picture of him.

00:53:48:27 - 00:54:10:06
Kyle
Just a such a crazy story. And so cool to to, to see those kind of people thrive and live in those mountains. And he was like. He was like, probably in his 70s. The dude walked like 16 miles, like it was nothing. Just really cool. Just a testament for just the kind of, resilience that people can have just living, living in the mountains of year after year.

00:54:10:08 - 00:54:10:22
Kyle
Yeah, that's

00:54:10:25 - 00:54:19:10
Paul
No that's a great example. And then now put yourself in the shoes of like a terrorist organization or let's say don't think of yourself as a terrorist. That's a bad example.

00:54:19:15 - 00:54:19:26
Paul
But think.

00:54:19:26 - 00:54:21:27
Paul
Of yourself as now let's say that.

00:54:21:27 - 00:54:23:27
Paul
Area in Peru.

00:54:24:00 - 00:54:26:24
Paul
Like the Peruvian government is, is fiercely authoritarian.

00:54:26:24 - 00:54:28:03
Paul
And, you know.

00:54:28:06 - 00:54:29:20
Paul
There's, a resistance.

00:54:29:20 - 00:54:30:12
Paul
Movement.

00:54:30:14 - 00:54:35:12
Paul
That's sweeping the nation. And that resistance wants to overthrow the authoritative government. But you.

00:54:35:12 - 00:54:36:16
Paul
And your fellow.

00:54:36:16 - 00:54:37:18
Paul
Patriots.

00:54:37:21 - 00:54:37:26
Paul
Are.

00:54:37:26 - 00:54:47:21
Paul
Now stuck in the mountains. You come across that same man and his his cows, and you said, please, like we're trying to make this country great again. Please provide us with some of your cows. Now, is that.

00:54:47:21 - 00:54:51:08
Paul
Man part of the resistance movement?

00:54:51:10 - 00:55:06:14
Paul
Maybe because now he's providing you. Malik's providing you cheese. Some some meat perhaps. Like now, he's directly, assisting this resistance movement. And that's how these things happen. And they, these resistance movements, terrorists, where they move into these areas and they.

00:55:06:17 - 00:55:08:05
Paul
Co-opt the people who live there who.

00:55:08:05 - 00:55:11:03
Paul
Are resilient or whatever. But then, help them and.

00:55:11:03 - 00:55:11:22
Paul
Their.

00:55:11:24 - 00:55:12:18
Paul
And their fight.

00:55:12:20 - 00:55:32:24
Kyle
Hasn't really been an example. And I don't want to try to paint the US in a bad picture here. Is that my goal? But so let's like we've got internal communities that have conflict and then you have obviously the parent states or the parent countries that are supporting the conflict

00:55:32:26 - 00:55:34:17
Paul
Yeah. And.

00:55:34:19 - 00:55:41:02
Kyle
the idea of like, maybe you've got a peaceful a mountain group that's on a border, but it's not conflicted.

00:55:41:03 - 00:55:52:16
Kyle
There's no war going on there, but there's still an invested interest in, utilizing their skills and kind of recruiting them for some sort of purpose that they might not have already been a part of. Is there kind of things like that going on in the

00:55:52:18 - 00:55:57:19
Paul
I'm sure. Yeah. I mean I can't take it, I'm not like

00:55:57:21 - 00:56:05:21
Paul
I'm not an I, I can't think of an example like right off the top of my head, but absolutely. There's certainly people like that who are getting caught up in the interests of people they've never.

00:56:05:21 - 00:56:06:21
Paul
Even heard of.

00:56:06:24 - 00:56:18:28
Kyle
too, because I feel like once a force of that has that kind of intention and they show up, there's really no choice anymore. It's like it's either you participate or you participate.

00:56:19:00 - 00:56:20:22
Paul
There's actually and I, I.

00:56:20:22 - 00:56:23:20
Paul
Won't even try to pronounce the name of the, the tribe.

00:56:23:22 - 00:56:24:18
Paul
Or the.

00:56:24:20 - 00:56:34:15
Paul
It's almost like its own ethnic group in the mountains of Mexico. They don't speak Spanish, they speak, you know, their traditional languages still. That's a great example of they lived in the mountains.

00:56:34:17 - 00:56:35:25
Paul
And then the,

00:56:35:28 - 00:56:36:20
Paul
The cartels came.

00:56:36:20 - 00:56:38:17
Paul
In and, they.

00:56:38:17 - 00:56:45:16
Paul
Had to basically build up their own local militias to fight off the cartels because the Mexican government couldn't get up there to do the fighting for.

00:56:45:16 - 00:56:46:04
Paul
Them.

00:56:46:06 - 00:56:55:04
Paul
And so, I'll find a job, I'll send it to you, I'll find the name of it and to send it to you after, but that's a great example of how like, this resilient community.

00:56:55:06 - 00:56:55:22
Paul
They ended.

00:56:55:22 - 00:56:59:28
Paul
Up, like, arming themselves. And anytime they had an outsider come.

00:56:59:28 - 00:57:00:06
Paul
In

00:57:00:11 - 00:57:14:26
Paul
they protected their own and it wasn't, you know, because the U.S. was air dropping them weapons. It wasn't because Mexico, the Mexican, you know, National Guard was moving in to help them fight the cartels if they fight them themselves. And so I think that's that's a really interesting case.

00:57:14:26 - 00:57:16:23
Paul
And that that does happen.

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00:58:18:02 - 00:58:38:08
Kyle
Okay. I'd like to, we've talked about, like, use case for the skills use case for the, the personnel we've talked about kind of the larger geopolitical landscape for how those kind of skills and people are using their skills for the larger picture. I want to kind of bring it all the way back to I think it's so calm.

00:58:38:10 - 00:58:39:21
Kyle
Is that the school.

00:58:39:23 - 00:58:44:27
Paul
Some work is the name of the school. So comes the Special Operations Command.

00:58:44:29 - 00:58:51:08
Kyle
I'd like to talk about like maybe walk me through, like what that training actually looks like,

00:58:51:11 - 00:58:52:02
Paul
Yeah totally.

00:58:52:10 - 00:59:05:12
Kyle
somebody who's starting out with probably no amount experience. Yeah. Like, walk me through that process. And then I ultimately want to get into, what kind of changes you implemented into that

00:59:05:15 - 00:59:06:22
Paul
Okay. Great.

00:59:06:24 - 00:59:08:25
Paul
I'm going to start trying to answer that.

00:59:09:02 - 00:59:10:01
Paul
And my ADHD.

00:59:10:01 - 00:59:10:27
Paul
Brain might take over.

00:59:10:27 - 00:59:13:12
Paul
But some of the.

00:59:13:14 - 00:59:18:01
Paul
As itself it's an advanced skill. Let me talk a little bit about that before.

00:59:18:04 - 00:59:18:10
Paul
You.

00:59:18:10 - 00:59:21:15
Paul
Have somebody who's already, special operations,

00:59:21:17 - 00:59:22:23
Paul
Warfighter and.

00:59:22:23 - 00:59:37:23
Paul
They need this they need this advanced skill because they're now on a mountain team. So we talk different specialties of teams. There's three, four teams, dive teams, mountain teams. You have mobility teams that specialize in, like, driving, you know, motorcycles and dirt bikes.

00:59:37:23 - 00:59:38:23
Paul
And.

00:59:38:25 - 00:59:46:14
Paul
Everybody wants to be a mobility team. So there's, like, all this cool guy stuff that happens. But, a lot of times.

00:59:46:17 - 00:59:53:24
Paul
You show up, you're a new freshly. You've just spent the last two years going through the qualification course, which is.

00:59:53:26 - 00:59:57:08
Paul
How long it takes to train, soldier from,

00:59:57:11 - 00:59:59:05
Paul
Like a regular unit.

00:59:59:05 - 01:00:03:05
Paul
Or somebody who's just enlisted, off the street. It takes two years of training.

01:00:03:05 - 01:00:04:14
Paul
Them from nothing.

01:00:04:14 - 01:00:11:17
Paul
In order to be a special operator for Green Berets. Specifically, I think the Seal pipeline is, like 18 to 24 months as well.

01:00:11:19 - 01:00:12:06
Paul
But you have these.

01:00:12:06 - 01:00:20:26
Paul
Guys, they've been trained and everything else. Now they need this advanced skill.

01:00:20:28 - 01:00:24:06
Paul
That gives.

01:00:24:08 - 01:00:43:13
Paul
Yes, absolutely. There's a couple there's teams. We just call them rock teams, because they just rock around and they, they walk everywhere. Or there's, so there's definitely teams that you don't have to be specialized in anything because there's plenty of places that they can still be used, without that specialty. Now, if you're assigned to a mountain team and,

01:00:43:15 - 01:00:45:18
Paul
You know, you're, you're Kyle.

01:00:45:21 - 01:00:49:06
Paul
And you tell the sergeant major of the company that, hey.

01:00:49:06 - 01:00:50:07
Paul
Like.

01:00:50:10 - 01:00:55:13
Paul
I lead trad. I love the mountains. Like, I would love to be in a mountain team.

01:00:55:15 - 01:00:56:03
Paul
Depending on what.

01:00:56:03 - 01:01:00:26
Paul
Your MOS is. Maybe, you're a medic. Maybe you're a communication specialist.

01:01:00:29 - 01:01:01:22
Paul
Maybe you're.

01:01:01:25 - 01:01:09:18
Paul
A weapons, specialist. He could be like, okay, got it. I'm sending you to a dive team because we need a medic over.

01:01:09:18 - 01:01:10:20
Paul
There, and you're a medic.

01:01:10:20 - 01:01:15:23
Paul
And you're in the right place at the wrong time, even though you have a out. So that that happens.

01:01:15:23 - 01:01:17:04
Paul
And,

01:01:17:07 - 01:01:20:11
Paul
It would be a bummer. And it was definitely a bummer for some mountain people.

01:01:20:14 - 01:01:20:18
Paul
Wouldn't

01:01:20:20 - 01:01:27:20
Kyle
that I would imagine, since when we were talking about these skill sets and how hard they are to attain

01:01:27:22 - 01:01:34:28
Kyle
someone who has a background in mountain athlete like skills and training, like go like you're rare. Go

01:01:35:04 - 01:01:43:07
Paul
So that does happen. And it happens, more than the case that I just told you. I'm saying as possible. Like, like me, when I showed up to group, I told them, like.

01:01:43:07 - 01:01:43:23
Paul
Hey.

01:01:43:26 - 01:01:49:04
Paul
I've been ski mountaineering for ten years. I love doing anything in the mountains.

01:01:49:07 - 01:01:50:20
Paul
I'll go anywhere you want me to be.

01:01:50:20 - 01:01:58:14
Paul
Because I want to be a good team guy. But if I had to say, I would choose the mountain team. And my battalion commander, he was great. He's like, awesome. We have a mountain team opening up. We go going.

01:01:58:14 - 01:01:59:01
Paul
There.

01:01:59:04 - 01:02:00:19
Paul
So that does happen.

01:02:00:22 - 01:02:01:01
Paul
Even.

01:02:01:01 - 01:02:01:18
Paul
Guys who.

01:02:01:18 - 01:02:02:22
Paul
Like.

01:02:02:25 - 01:02:05:28
Paul
Don't know what they want to specialize in.

01:02:06:00 - 01:02:07:01
Paul
Like, maybe you.

01:02:07:01 - 01:02:13:13
Paul
Grew up, like, hiking a bunch and you're just like, yeah, I think a mountain team would be my vibe. You tell them that you go a mountain team, that's great.

01:02:13:15 - 01:02:13:28
Paul
So once you.

01:02:13:28 - 01:02:16:14
Paul
Get to the mountain team on the mountain, and they put.

01:02:16:14 - 01:02:17:00
Paul
You through.

01:02:17:00 - 01:02:19:01
Paul
Like, a two week basic mountain operator.

01:02:19:01 - 01:02:19:23
Paul
Course.

01:02:19:26 - 01:02:22:23
Paul
So now you've shown up, they'll teach you how to.

01:02:22:26 - 01:02:22:29
Paul
How.

01:02:22:29 - 01:02:29:10
Paul
To belay somebody, how to navigate a fixed line, how to tie some knots, how to build an anchor. You know, the basics of like.

01:02:29:13 - 01:02:29:28
Paul
If you're going.

01:02:29:28 - 01:02:31:29
Paul
To go out with somebody sport climbing, they have to like.

01:02:32:05 - 01:02:36:12
Paul
Know a little bit about how to be in the mountains.

01:02:36:14 - 01:02:38:10
Paul
So there's a, there's a summer.

01:02:38:13 - 01:02:40:09
Paul
Basic mountain operator course. It's about two.

01:02:40:09 - 01:02:41:11
Paul
Weeks and there's.

01:02:41:11 - 01:02:56:26
Paul
A winter and and basic mountain course. And those basic courses is like, they touch on a little bit of avalanche rescue, depending on the group. Sometimes they're actually doing backcountry skiing. We call it over snow mobility.

01:02:56:28 - 01:02:58:04
Paul
Or most.

01:02:58:07 - 01:02:59:06
Paul
Mobility over the snow.

01:02:59:06 - 01:03:00:13
Paul
Training.

01:03:00:15 - 01:03:03:10
Paul
So that would be a basic level.

01:03:03:13 - 01:03:03:27
Paul
Now they get.

01:03:03:27 - 01:03:06:19
Paul
That on the team. The guys who are on the team.

01:03:06:22 - 01:03:06:29
Paul
Are.

01:03:06:29 - 01:03:21:07
Paul
The instructors for that course. And those instructors on the team come from somewhere tech. So there's three levels of a mountain operator and special operations. There's the basic, which you now are. You just showed up. You went through the two week basic course. You're now a basic there's the summer mountain.

01:03:21:07 - 01:03:21:29
Paul
Operator.

01:03:21:29 - 01:03:23:16
Paul
Which is the, the level.

01:03:23:16 - 01:03:25:24
Paul
Two, and then the,

01:03:25:27 - 01:03:27:25
Paul
The highest level is the Winter mountain.

01:03:27:25 - 01:03:29:01
Paul
Operator, formerly.

01:03:29:01 - 01:03:35:12
Paul
Known as the Master Mountaineers. If you have any, like, veterans listening. So those those are the three levels for the.

01:03:35:12 - 01:03:36:11
Paul
Top two.

01:03:36:11 - 01:03:40:13
Paul
Levels. You have to come to somewhere, like to get qualified.

01:03:40:15 - 01:03:48:07
Paul
And what that looks like is about a 7 to 8 week long course, for both for the summer.

01:03:48:07 - 01:03:49:29
Paul
So. Yeah.

01:03:50:01 - 01:03:52:09
Paul
So you show up to Colorado.

01:03:52:11 - 01:03:52:23
Paul
And you.

01:03:52:23 - 01:04:03:09
Paul
Go through basically like a rock and alpine, course of instruction where you have the basics, you know, how to tie knots, you know how to tie anchors. There's like a stringent test in, you have to test in.

01:04:03:09 - 01:04:04:12
Paul
And prove that, you know, all.

01:04:04:12 - 01:04:06:16
Paul
Of those, those.

01:04:06:19 - 01:04:12:13
Paul
Those skills. And then you have to show up with a climbing log that shows like, okay, I've done these climbs. I'm not just.

01:04:12:13 - 01:04:13:10
Paul
Like a.

01:04:13:10 - 01:04:15:25
Paul
Cherry guy, a novice who's.

01:04:15:28 - 01:04:16:18
Paul
I've.

01:04:16:20 - 01:04:27:28
Paul
Done these skills. I know how to, like, do a pro, like, climb up a rope using a secure a GMR in a certain amount of time? Yeah. You can learn that skills in your team room and not actually ever have been on, climbing on anything.

01:04:28:01 - 01:04:28:07
Paul
So you.

01:04:28:07 - 01:04:30:00
Paul
Have to have a climbing log as well to show you got some.

01:04:30:00 - 01:04:34:07
Paul
Prereqs. You have to have the movement capability.

01:04:34:10 - 01:04:41:24
Paul
And usually that shakes out because I've seen some test ins where guys show up and they're like, yeah, he's belaying okay. But then he climbs like 15ft up the wall and he's like.

01:04:41:26 - 01:04:44:27
Paul
This is the first time I've ever been. And it's just like, you know.

01:04:45:03 - 01:04:51:12
Kyle
yeah, I mean, I think that goes back to the whole topic of like spy and like the guy trainings and stuff. So like, you can have someone who

01:04:51:15 - 01:04:55:18
Paul
Yeah.

01:04:55:21 - 01:05:02:19
Kyle
I mean, use climbing the word air quotes. It's like, I don't know, everybody has their different level and obviously knowledge is great, but

01:05:02:21 - 01:05:04:04
Paul
Yeah.

01:05:04:07 - 01:05:06:21
Paul
And we get like, oh there's a whole.

01:05:06:21 - 01:05:07:16
Paul
Spectrum of.

01:05:07:19 - 01:05:09:04
Paul
Of like levels.

01:05:09:04 - 01:05:13:06
Paul
Of skill going into this, you know, there's guys

01:05:13:09 - 01:05:17:10
Paul
We've had one of the former

01:05:17:12 - 01:05:29:24
Paul
NCO is, is what we call that a noncommissioned officer who's in charge of the course. He was a mountain guide before he even became a Green Beret. So he had, lots of skills going into it, and he went to the course, and he.

01:05:29:25 - 01:05:30:26
Paul
Probably did very well.

01:05:31:01 - 01:05:33:01
Paul
Because he knew more than instructors in some cases.

01:05:33:07 - 01:05:34:12
Paul
But, you know.

01:05:34:14 - 01:05:52:04
Paul
On the other hand, you have guys who come through the course and the first time they're ever tried climbing, let alone tried leading is two weeks into the summer course. And, so you have like this, this wide, this wide spectrum of learning that has to happen. And that's why the instructor, the instructors.

01:05:52:06 - 01:05:53:22
Paul
Who are remarkable.

01:05:53:25 - 01:05:55:19
Paul
There has to be a great mentorship program for.

01:05:55:19 - 01:05:56:01
Paul
Them.

01:05:56:07 - 01:06:03:11
Paul
Because they have to be able to deal with that whole spectrum. They have to be able to, because it's like all three man party climbs.

01:06:03:13 - 01:06:09:18
Paul
So it's like a 2 to 1 instructor to student ratio. So that guy could be up there. Just him.

01:06:09:21 - 01:06:10:10
Paul
Yep.

01:06:10:12 - 01:06:18:14
Paul
So he's up there with two students. Maybe one of those students is just like, never locks the locking carabiner or like.

01:06:18:16 - 01:06:19:01
Paul
I mean, one of.

01:06:19:01 - 01:06:35:04
Paul
The, case that was very common for, safety violations when we had to drop somebody is, you know, when you go in to look at mode, when you're about to belay somebody up, they put that in backwards. Now you're just on a 1 to 1, like. So that happens. And the instructors got to be able to pinpoint they'd be like, stop what the fuck you're doing.

01:06:35:04 - 01:06:42:25
Paul
And like, let me fix this. Or in the case of like, maybe a student's leading and he's made it halfway up the pitch. And he falls.

01:06:42:28 - 01:06:44:01
Paul
And,

01:06:44:04 - 01:06:59:19
Paul
He's incapacitated. Now the the instructor has to do a lead climb or rescue and go up and rescue him and lower back down. So there's a whole number of skills that the instructors have to use. You brought up spy, spies mandatory for all the instructors.

01:06:59:21 - 01:07:00:07
Paul
Yep.

01:07:00:09 - 01:07:08:08
Paul
So we contract guys to run our guys through spy. There's also, like, rigging for rescue. We send guys to all the time.

01:07:08:10 - 01:07:08:24
Paul
And then.

01:07:08:28 - 01:07:13:04
Paul
The rock guide course. Alpine guide course, of course. So.

01:07:13:06 - 01:07:13:24
Paul
Using.

01:07:13:24 - 01:07:18:20
Paul
The MGA is a great way to get that mentorship and those skills for the instructors, because now the instructors.

01:07:18:20 - 01:07:21:08
Paul
Even though they're not a mountain guide.

01:07:21:11 - 01:07:31:16
Paul
They're just a guy who was on a mountain team for three years. He was assigned to the Mountain School. Now he's essentially responsible for these two. Sometimes novice climbers.

01:07:31:19 - 01:07:33:22
Paul
And has to do that in a way.

01:07:33:24 - 01:07:36:09
Paul
As, like a senior mentor so that they can learn and they.

01:07:36:09 - 01:07:37:22
Paul
Can develop.

01:07:37:24 - 01:07:40:12
Paul
And so that's, that's to me, I mean, it was such.

01:07:40:19 - 01:07:42:19
Paul
An honor to be able to, like, work.

01:07:42:22 - 01:07:46:13
Paul
With these guys and work for them and help them.

01:07:46:15 - 01:07:47:07
Paul
Build the.

01:07:47:07 - 01:07:51:13
Paul
Greatest courses because they can, because they're no shit like out in the terrain.

01:07:51:13 - 01:07:52:14
Paul
With people who.

01:07:52:14 - 01:07:56:01
Paul
Are sometimes trying to kill them, like, not the enemy of the state. And the students.

01:07:56:04 - 01:07:57:11
Paul
Like, I.

01:07:57:11 - 01:08:00:15
Paul
Think like 100 and 7080 days out of the year. They're in.

01:08:00:22 - 01:08:01:00
Paul
High.

01:08:01:00 - 01:08:02:14
Paul
Consequence, high risk terrain.

01:08:02:20 - 01:08:03:13
Paul
With people.

01:08:03:13 - 01:08:18:04
Paul
Who are learning how to be there for the first time. And so it's it's a thankless job. And, all of the instructors like, put so much on the line, I think if, like, the wives understood what was actually happening up on the mountain sometimes would be like.

01:08:18:04 - 01:08:20:23
Paul
Are you kidding me? But, now it it.

01:08:20:23 - 01:08:21:13
Paul
Is remarkable, but.

01:08:21:13 - 01:08:23:09
Paul
It,

01:08:23:11 - 01:08:25:10
Paul
I've digressed from your question. Like I said, I would.

01:08:25:18 - 01:08:27:09
Paul
But, those are the.

01:08:27:09 - 01:08:31:20
Paul
Courses that we have, and we need the instructor mentorship in those programs in order.

01:08:31:20 - 01:08:32:10
Paul
To.

01:08:32:13 - 01:08:34:11
Paul
Get the students through the courses safely.

01:08:34:14 - 01:08:53:05
Kyle
For the level of skill involved and the amount of time spent in this risky terrain, both for the student and the instructor, you've got to have a passion for it. Yeah, I would imagine that at a certain point along the training career for these people, there's

01:08:53:07 - 01:08:57:16
Paul
I'm.

01:08:57:19 - 01:09:09:06
Paul
Yeah.

01:09:09:08 - 01:09:16:14
Kyle
I mean, I guess there's parallels to warfare and being in risky situations too, where you're like, you're like, I did sign up for this, you know? Yeah.

01:09:16:14 - 01:09:20:02
Kyle
How do you process that with people who are going through something like

01:09:20:05 - 01:09:21:25
Paul
I mean, that can be very.

01:09:21:27 - 01:09:23:19
Paul
Team dependent, I think,

01:09:23:22 - 01:09:24:12
Paul
Particular.

01:09:24:12 - 01:09:28:09
Paul
To the school house, we tend to be very.

01:09:28:11 - 01:09:29:15
Paul
Particular about.

01:09:29:15 - 01:09:30:19
Paul
The instructors that we.

01:09:30:19 - 01:09:33:10
Paul
Invited back. And I get.

01:09:33:11 - 01:09:35:00
Paul
I keep saying we as it.

01:09:35:02 - 01:09:36:18
Paul
I'm, I'm no longer the.

01:09:36:18 - 01:09:41:15
Paul
Commander, but I'm passionate about it. I was a commander there for about two years.

01:09:41:17 - 01:09:44:16
Paul
Now when we have,

01:09:44:18 - 01:09:49:18
Paul
Guys who come to the course who perform really well as students and who clearly have the passion or.

01:09:49:20 - 01:09:50:23
Paul
Like maybe he was a.

01:09:50:23 - 01:09:52:08
Paul
Ski racer in college, like.

01:09:52:08 - 01:09:53:25
Paul
Okay, you're going to come here, you're going to be.

01:09:53:25 - 01:09:55:18
Paul
Like one of our ski instructors.

01:09:55:20 - 01:10:01:22
Paul
Or, like the guide. I give you an example of, you know, we, we try to.

01:10:01:24 - 01:10:05:12
Paul
Pinpoint who those guys are and then try to get them back to the school house.

01:10:05:16 - 01:10:08:12
Kyle
makes sense.

01:10:08:15 - 01:10:09:03
Paul
Yeah. For the.

01:10:09:03 - 01:10:11:16
Paul
Students. You have to go.

01:10:11:16 - 01:10:29:23
Paul
Back and think, okay, why are they there in the first place? So on, like a, Oda, that operational detachment that's like the small 12 man team. Most of special operations happen with that 12 man team as the modular force that's moving into a country. I'm on that 12 man team for a mountain special specialized team.

01:10:30:00 - 01:10:38:14
Paul
You have two summer mountain operators and two winter mountain operators. So four guys on that team doctrinally, by regulation.

01:10:38:16 - 01:10:40:02
Paul
Have to be,

01:10:40:04 - 01:10:42:08
Paul
At that level, that higher level of mountain skill.

01:10:42:13 - 01:10:43:11
Paul
The other eight can.

01:10:43:11 - 01:10:55:05
Paul
Just stay basic. So if you get a guy on the team who he goes through, he's a basic and he's like, listen, is this not for me? I whacked myself in the face. The nice pick was, when we were ice climbing, and I don't want that to happen again.

01:10:55:08 - 01:11:00:02
Paul
I don't want to go to the course. That team sergeant could be like, Roger that.

01:11:00:04 - 01:11:01:04
Paul
I'm not going to send you if you don't.

01:11:01:04 - 01:11:04:02
Paul
Want to go. But by virtue of.

01:11:04:02 - 01:11:17:07
Paul
Just the type of personalities that Special Forces gets, you know, it's a lot of Type-A. There's a lot of ego associated with it. The new guy shows up on the team and he's like, I'll go to whatever school you want me to go to right now. I'll do it tomorrow. Like send.

01:11:17:07 - 01:11:17:23
Paul
Me.

01:11:17:25 - 01:11:27:25
Paul
And so they'll go and they'll do their best, and oftentimes I'll perform great. There's been several guys who, you know, they go through the course, they're trad climbing for the first time.

01:11:27:28 - 01:11:29:01
Paul
And then.

01:11:29:03 - 01:11:32:29
Paul
You talk to them after the fact. It's like, yeah, man. I'm like, really afraid of heights.

01:11:33:06 - 01:11:34:16
Paul
I hate this, but they're.

01:11:34:16 - 01:11:53:24
Paul
Doing it because they want to be a good guy on their team. And so that's an attitude that I love and that's on every single team, I guarantee it. And then you get the guys who are passionate about it, the dudes who they they asked to go to the mountain team because I wanted to be a mountain operator, and that the first opportunity, they're like, send me to the summer course, send me to the winter course.

01:11:53:26 - 01:11:56:19
Paul
Because they want to get that next level training.

01:11:56:21 - 01:11:56:26
Paul
And.

01:11:56:26 - 01:11:58:19
Paul
Those are the guys that tend to come back as.

01:11:58:19 - 01:12:01:11
Paul
Instructors, now, like.

01:12:01:11 - 01:12:02:07
Paul
On a separate, like.

01:12:02:07 - 01:12:03:10
Paul
Talent management.

01:12:03:10 - 01:12:05:11
Paul
Conversation.

01:12:05:14 - 01:12:06:14
Paul
Usually the way that.

01:12:06:14 - 01:12:21:19
Paul
The timeline works for operators on a team is like, you're on the team for like 3 or 4 years and then you have to go brought in. You have to go become an instructor at the CU course, or you have to go be an instructor at the free fall school or something. So you have to put in some instructor time before you can go back to a team operationally.

01:12:21:22 - 01:12:32:01
Paul
So guys are just like, yeah, I'll go do my three years at somewhat and I'll go back to a team. And that's that's you. That's the model we like to see. But every now and then.

01:12:32:03 - 01:12:32:12
Paul
Just.

01:12:32:12 - 01:12:33:25
Paul
By virtue of the Army being in the.

01:12:33:25 - 01:12:37:19
Paul
Army, you know, we'll get,

01:12:37:21 - 01:12:44:24
Paul
Some medic will have their gains announced for, like, the next year, but, like, okay, you're getting this guy, this guy and this guy, and we'll ask around the team and like.

01:12:45:01 - 01:12:47:16
Paul
Does anybody know who this guy is? And we'll look him.

01:12:47:16 - 01:12:56:18
Paul
Up and he's got no mountain skill whatsoever. It hasn't never been on a mountain team. Never went to the mountain courses, but he's been earmarked to come as an instructor.

01:12:56:20 - 01:12:57:21
Paul
We're just like.

01:12:57:23 - 01:12:58:03
Paul
Well, what are.

01:12:58:03 - 01:12:58:16
Paul
We going to do with.

01:12:58:16 - 01:13:07:10
Paul
This guy? Because in order to get him trained, that's at least two years now to get him just to the winter, the master qualification, let alone the additional.

01:13:07:10 - 01:13:07:28
Paul
Like three.

01:13:07:28 - 01:13:12:05
Paul
Year instructor training pipeline that we have. So.

01:13:12:07 - 01:13:13:20
Paul
We I mean.

01:13:13:20 - 01:13:19:24
Paul
Incestuous is maybe the bad word, but like, we try to be kind of incestuous about it and be like, okay, you're the guy. I want to come here.

01:13:19:27 - 01:13:20:03
Paul
Well.

01:13:20:03 - 01:13:30:18
Paul
By name request to you so you can make it over here and be an instructor, because you've already had these skills, you've already been through everyone into, like, I mean, when you come in as instructor, we can send you right to pro for your first winter.

01:13:30:24 - 01:13:31:00
Paul
And.

01:13:31:00 - 01:13:33:29
Paul
Then you can do ITC the second year, and now you're.

01:13:34:01 - 01:13:35:22
Paul
You're certifying.

01:13:35:25 - 01:13:42:09
Paul
Guys in Erie as an example. So it helps if there is that passion and they do have that skill coming in.

01:13:42:12 - 01:13:55:24
Kyle
see how it's ideal but not required. Yeah. How many people would you say in the army or in the green Beret are fully mountain certified?

01:13:55:27 - 01:13:56:19
Paul
It's more than 100.

01:13:56:19 - 01:13:57:04
Paul
Less than a.

01:13:57:04 - 01:14:02:03
Paul
Thousand. Every SF company.

01:14:02:06 - 01:14:15:22
Paul
Has one mountain team. Usually in most cases, there's three companies in a battalion. So that's three mountains for the tie and for four for battalions per group. So as 12 potential mountain teams per group, that's not there's not enough funding.

01:14:15:22 - 01:14:17:08
Paul
And,

01:14:17:10 - 01:14:22:11
Paul
Resources to actually have 12 per group. So it's probably sitting around like 6 to 8.

01:14:22:11 - 01:14:23:12
Paul
And then.

01:14:23:15 - 01:14:32:20
Paul
You know, you talk about at a max having four guys qualified on a team. So I'm doing math and public is a horrible idea, but that's like 24.

01:14:32:20 - 01:14:33:18
Paul
To.

01:14:33:18 - 01:14:40:25
Paul
40 guys. And each group that's mountain qualified and there's so yeah, it's more than 100 but not much more. And that's guys who are like.

01:14:40:25 - 01:14:43:04
Paul
Actively in it. And.

01:14:43:04 - 01:14:44:11
Paul
So.

01:14:44:14 - 01:14:47:26
Paul
Yeah, it's a small community in a small group. But.

01:14:47:28 - 01:14:52:24
Paul
SF is small and that's I mean, that's particularly the Green Berets. Seals are completely different.

01:14:52:27 - 01:14:54:07
Paul
Yeah, they have,

01:14:54:09 - 01:14:56:07
Paul
Their Seal teams are a little bit bigger. Their platoons.

01:14:56:07 - 01:14:59:28
Paul
Are bigger. But,

01:15:00:01 - 01:15:02:19
Paul
They're the seals up until recently, actually had a really good.

01:15:02:19 - 01:15:04:08
Paul
Model where they would do.

01:15:04:08 - 01:15:06:28
Paul
Their basic mountain training, like in the Q course.

01:15:06:28 - 01:15:07:27
Paul
So everybody.

01:15:07:27 - 01:15:11:06
Paul
Who becomes a seal has that basic, amount of.

01:15:11:06 - 01:15:11:19
Paul
Knowledge.

01:15:11:25 - 01:15:18:29
Paul
Which I think is a great model. I wish the Green Berets did it, but.

01:15:19:01 - 01:15:23:18
Paul
Absolutely.

01:15:23:20 - 01:15:29:00
Paul
So back to the research. So I was just talking, talked about a little bit ago where we see violent conflicts happening.

01:15:29:00 - 01:15:29:15
Paul
More.

01:15:29:15 - 01:15:40:26
Paul
Proportionately, disproportionately in the mountains. That is something that's growing. So I looked at data from like 2010 to 2014 and 2014 to 2020.

01:15:40:28 - 01:15:49:08
Paul
The conflict is slowly moving back into the mountains. And I don't want to even begin to explore why that might be. It probably has to do with.

01:15:49:10 - 01:15:50:16
Paul
Advent of technology.

01:15:50:22 - 01:15:51:05
Paul
Remote.

01:15:51:05 - 01:15:56:18
Paul
Workers. Now people are moving, to the mountains because they have internet connection. Yeah. Starlink is works all.

01:15:56:18 - 01:15:59:29
Paul
Over the world. So there's a whole number of reasons.

01:15:59:29 - 01:16:07:08
Paul
Why that might be. But like, the data is clear that there are more conflicts today happening in the mountains. And there were 15 or 20 years ago.

01:16:07:10 - 01:16:13:21
Paul
Yeah.

01:16:13:24 - 01:16:27:24
Paul
Some would. Heck yeah. The school schoolhouse.

01:16:27:26 - 01:16:28:12
Paul
And put me.

01:16:28:12 - 01:16:28:27
Paul
On a spot a.

01:16:28:27 - 01:16:32:06
Paul
Little bit. Yeah, I.

01:16:32:08 - 01:16:33:09
Paul
Focused.

01:16:33:12 - 01:16:35:15
Paul
I was very focused on modernizing the.

01:16:35:15 - 01:16:38:10
Paul
Equipment, and, the criminal.

01:16:38:10 - 01:16:40:08
Paul
Organization was the first. And then.

01:16:40:10 - 01:16:42:10
Paul
What I called operationalization of the.

01:16:42:10 - 01:16:43:13
Paul
Instructors.

01:16:43:15 - 01:16:47:27
Paul
I'll talk about the first, yeah.

01:16:47:27 - 01:16:49:01
Paul
So that.

01:16:49:01 - 01:16:51:20
Paul
Basically comes down to is.

01:16:51:22 - 01:16:59:21
Paul
I mean, take like, we were climbing and, and Red rocks, today and yesterday come across like some old, some old timers,

01:16:59:24 - 01:17:00:25
Paul
Who, they're.

01:17:00:25 - 01:17:03:23
Paul
Probably like, local legends. And I just didn't even know who I was looking at.

01:17:03:25 - 01:17:04:13
Paul
But, like, they're.

01:17:04:13 - 01:17:06:04
Paul
Climbing on, like.

01:17:06:06 - 01:17:06:16
Paul
Old.

01:17:06:16 - 01:17:09:21
Paul
Cams and, like, totems that look like they've been around for, like, 20.

01:17:09:21 - 01:17:10:29
Paul
Years.

01:17:11:01 - 01:17:13:27
Paul
Tri cams.

01:17:13:29 - 01:17:19:04
Paul
That was kind of the gear that most teams have in their in their cages, in their team room.

01:17:19:07 - 01:17:23:25
Paul
It was stuff that was manufactured in the early 2000.

01:17:23:27 - 01:17:26:11
Paul
And it's sort of it's just been there and it's been maintained.

01:17:26:11 - 01:17:27:25
Paul
And,

01:17:27:28 - 01:17:39:29
Paul
Obviously the global war on terror teams were very focused on, kinetic operations. So that equipping really fell off. And that was no different at the schoolhouse.

01:17:40:01 - 01:17:41:00
Paul
You know.

01:17:41:02 - 01:17:55:10
Paul
Equipment, as you know, as a climber has a lifespan, especially like the soft goods ropes, like runners, everything like ten years, like at the most. Right. But like, if you're actually using that, like, a rope, could be it.

01:17:55:12 - 01:17:55:27
Paul
Well, rope could.

01:17:55:27 - 01:17:58:16
Paul
Be pretty quick, but like, harnesses.

01:17:58:16 - 01:17:59:15
Paul
Everything like two.

01:17:59:15 - 01:18:00:05
Paul
Maybe three.

01:18:00:13 - 01:18:05:20
Paul
Slings, like, constantly getting, trying to get cams reach like that was always in that role.

01:18:05:27 - 01:18:06:27
Paul
But,

01:18:07:00 - 01:18:09:17
Paul
So there's all this equipment that just has to be recycled.

01:18:09:20 - 01:18:12:21
Paul
Not to mention new equipment that's coming out.

01:18:12:23 - 01:18:17:10
Paul
Like the advent of the Gregory or the Micro Traction or the Tib lock, or was it, the.

01:18:17:13 - 01:18:21:18
Paul
Is now like, the Omega. Right? They just released. So.

01:18:21:21 - 01:18:22:27
Paul
Exactly. And it's.

01:18:22:29 - 01:18:26:25
Paul
Not only is it like making things more lightweight for guys who like to do like the alpine style of.

01:18:26:25 - 01:18:29:22
Paul
Climbing, but, it's also safer.

01:18:29:25 - 01:18:50:14
Paul
And so why should an operator, be rappelling on, like, a figure eight device from the 1980s? If, like, you have all of this other equipment that not only is safer, but it's more lightweight. Because I talks about like, that team who's climbing up a cooler 110 pounds of equipment like most, that probably wasn't a mountain gear is probably like batteries and ammunition.

01:18:50:16 - 01:18:52:18
Paul
But like, any way you can.

01:18:52:18 - 01:18:53:00
Paul
Reduce the.

01:18:53:00 - 01:18:54:06
Paul
Weight, you're going to get.

01:18:54:06 - 01:18:57:10
Paul
A more lethal warfighter. So modernizing the equipment was like a.

01:18:57:10 - 01:19:01:27
Paul
Huge, huge.

01:19:01:29 - 01:19:04:05
Paul
Thing that I tried to do.

01:19:04:08 - 01:19:07:00
Paul
And it only came about because.

01:19:07:02 - 01:19:10:01
Paul
As you could tell, I'm passionate about this stuff.

01:19:10:03 - 01:19:12:22
Paul
And I went above.

01:19:12:22 - 01:19:23:06
Paul
People's heads, as I probably should have in order to make sure that they were aware that, like, hey, this is a need. This is like something that this is a life supporting piece of equipment.

01:19:23:08 - 01:19:23:17
Paul
And we do.

01:19:23:17 - 01:19:24:13
Paul
Not have the money to do.

01:19:24:13 - 01:19:24:24
Paul
It.

01:19:24:26 - 01:19:35:16
Paul
I shouldn't have an instructor show up to the school house and has to buy his own ski boots, because we can't afford to even give him his own ski boots. Like, why? Why can I not even like outfit my guys to do the job.

01:19:35:16 - 01:19:36:04
Paul
That you.

01:19:36:04 - 01:19:37:11
Paul
As the Army are telling him that they have to.

01:19:37:11 - 01:19:38:03
Paul
Do.

01:19:38:06 - 01:19:41:23
Paul
And so I fought for. I fought for a lot of money. And that came, it wasn't easy to.

01:19:41:23 - 01:19:42:12
Paul
Do, but.

01:19:42:14 - 01:19:44:24
Paul
Explaining to people the problem, explain to people.

01:19:44:24 - 01:19:47:25
Paul
The need and then letting them know that, like, hey.

01:19:47:27 - 01:19:52:17
Paul
I've had this operating budget at the school for like ten years. Inflation happens.

01:19:52:17 - 01:19:54:22
Paul
Man. Like I can't be.

01:19:54:22 - 01:19:57:06
Paul
Working on the same amount of money as I did ten years ago today.

01:19:57:13 - 01:19:59:00
Paul
Like we need we need a higher budget.

01:19:59:00 - 01:20:01:26
Paul
I need to modernize. And we were successful in doing that.

01:20:01:28 - 01:20:04:11
Paul
And yeah, I was a.

01:20:04:11 - 01:20:13:04
Paul
Little bit too squeaky. I won't go into any details on that because, No there's not. I didn't get fired.

01:20:13:04 - 01:20:14:05
Paul
Don't worry.

01:20:14:07 - 01:20:14:24
Paul
But,

01:20:14:26 - 01:20:15:29
Paul
I if you.

01:20:15:29 - 01:20:23:21
Paul
Ask my commander, I got him fired. Which was, a problem, but when it came down to it, so had our backs.

01:20:23:24 - 01:20:25:16
Paul
And they.

01:20:25:19 - 01:20:37:04
Paul
I don't get into chain, like, chain of command stuff, but, they had our backs and they backed us up, and we essentially got a blank check to, to completely retrofit, which was really helpful.

01:20:37:07 - 01:20:38:24
Paul
Yeah. And so the equipment.

01:20:38:24 - 01:20:45:08
Paul
Was to one side, and we talked a lot about the mentorship, but contracting eyes, MGA guides.

01:20:45:11 - 01:20:46:09
Paul
It was really.

01:20:46:09 - 01:20:52:18
Paul
Hard for a long time for the school house because they called themselves Master Mountain Years. As a guy who's.

01:20:52:18 - 01:20:53:25
Paul
Maybe only.

01:20:53:25 - 01:21:00:08
Paul
Actually done 4 to 6 months of mountaineering training, you can call that guy a master.

01:21:00:11 - 01:21:00:21
Paul
When you.

01:21:00:21 - 01:21:07:11
Paul
Have, you know, pen guys who's taken decades. So it took a long it took a long time for us to

01:21:07:13 - 01:21:07:19
Paul
actually.

01:21:07:26 - 01:21:11:12
Paul
Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

01:21:11:15 - 01:21:14:08
Paul
Exactly.

01:21:14:10 - 01:21:14:26
Paul
Yeah.

01:21:14:28 - 01:21:27:12
Paul
And it's, it's it's risk reduction. Yeah. I mentioned we had we have instructors in the, in the, in the field high consequence terrain 100 and 7080 days out of the year, whether it's, you know, vertical terrain climbing.

01:21:27:14 - 01:21:27:23
Paul
When you're.

01:21:27:23 - 01:21:29:28
Paul
Doing like alpine style climbing or.

01:21:29:28 - 01:21:32:19
Paul
You're short roping a guy like.

01:21:32:21 - 01:21:36:13
Paul
Over, like very high consequence, exposed, terrain.

01:21:36:15 - 01:21:36:27
Paul
Or,

01:21:37:03 - 01:21:48:21
Paul
Through avalanche terrain. So all of these things are very dangerous. It is a risk reduction measure for me as the commander, to get them mentorship from actual guides so that they know all of like, the latest techniques.

01:21:48:21 - 01:21:49:26
Paul
To do it.

01:21:49:28 - 01:21:54:08
Paul
Just in the 4 or 5 years since I went through as a student.

01:21:54:11 - 01:21:55:12
Paul
They are like.

01:21:55:19 - 01:21:57:29
Paul
They change every year, like a different style of doing.

01:21:57:29 - 01:21:59:24
Paul
Something, like.

01:21:59:24 - 01:22:00:19
Paul
Whether it's just.

01:22:00:19 - 01:22:01:00
Paul
Rope.

01:22:01:00 - 01:22:03:14
Paul
Management or like a different high angle rescue.

01:22:03:14 - 01:22:04:19
Paul
Technique.

01:22:04:21 - 01:22:14:15
Paul
And there's a lot of really great, guide organizations that we work with that has, veterans and just guys, you know, we've worked together for a long time so they understand our need.

01:22:14:17 - 01:22:15:27
Paul
But yeah.

01:22:15:27 - 01:22:17:26
Paul
So so then getting.

01:22:17:26 - 01:22:37:20
Paul
The contractor guiding is really important. And then the last piece was the operationalization piece. So being able to take an instructor, and send them anywhere in the world to advise, basically, a unit that might not have that expertise. And so in that capacity, yeah, we said guys to Alaska,

01:22:37:24 - 01:22:42:08
Paul
Greenland, Italy,

01:22:42:10 - 01:22:54:10
Paul
Bunch of other places, but to to advise and to work with partners, in order to, to build that skill, an example, I mentioned Greenland. We sent a couple instructors up.

01:22:54:10 - 01:22:55:06
Paul
There for a.

01:22:55:06 - 01:23:01:09
Paul
Big expedition. The Danes are responsible for Greenland. It's like they're sovereign territory. They have these.

01:23:01:11 - 01:23:23:04
Paul
It's actually really. I don't wanna get too far off topic, but there's a really cool capability called the the serious teams. And they're like, backcountry dog sled special operators. And so the whole northeast coast of Greenland is completely, completely uninhabited. And it's got the ice cap. And so these dog sled teams essentially patrol, and they have like a law enforcement authority.

01:23:23:07 - 01:23:26:04
Paul
For like, illegal mining.

01:23:26:07 - 01:23:44:06
Paul
Back in World War Two, it was Nazis, like, establishing weather stations, submarines and stuff. And so they have this huge, vast amount of territory to patrol, and it's all, it's dark most of the year. It's all heavily glaciated. So we sent some instructors up there to help with some glacier rescue and crevasse, glacier travel and crevasse rescue.

01:23:44:08 - 01:23:44:16
Paul
Because they.

01:23:44:16 - 01:23:49:09
Paul
Were trying. Yeah, to try and and to try to help these dog sled teams and these Danish, the Yeager's.

01:23:49:11 - 01:23:49:18
Paul
Are.

01:23:49:18 - 01:23:51:12
Paul
Their special operations team.

01:23:51:14 - 01:23:51:24
Paul
And they're.

01:23:51:24 - 01:24:01:14
Paul
Incredible. So that's an example of something that you do with a partner who's.

01:24:01:17 - 01:24:02:01
Paul
Yeah.

01:24:02:04 - 01:24:10:19
Paul
And so com has a word for that. It's like subject matter expertise exchange or species. So you're like the Italians, especially the alpine.

01:24:10:21 - 01:24:11:07
Paul
They have.

01:24:11:15 - 01:24:15:05
Paul
Really phenomenal mountain warfare specialists. So it's an exchange.

01:24:15:05 - 01:24:16:09
Paul
We're we're learning what.

01:24:16:11 - 01:24:16:26
Paul
Partners are.

01:24:16:26 - 01:24:17:17
Paul
Doing.

01:24:17:19 - 01:24:26:04
Paul
And then you're showing them what we're doing. And then, it's just a great way to build relationships. And obviously, like mountain people love hanging out mountain people. So it's always a good time.

01:24:26:06 - 01:24:47:21
Kyle
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01:24:47:21 - 01:25:06:18
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01:25:06:20 - 01:25:27:28
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01:25:27:29 - 01:25:30:00
Kyle
We only have 1000 more ratings to go.

01:25:30:05 - 01:25:46:05
Kyle
about risk management? So how would you say someone who graduates from as a full master from your programs, how would you say their personal risk management philosophy differs from that of, let's say, a generalized recreational climber?

01:25:46:12 - 01:25:47:04
Paul
I mean, we taught.

01:25:47:05 - 01:25:49:20
Paul
We teach people to be very risk averse.

01:25:49:22 - 01:25:52:04
Paul
Yeah. And now when we.

01:25:52:04 - 01:26:05:23
Paul
Say we're doing like, multi pitch trad leading within two weeks, we're not talking like you're going up like nines and tens and elevens. It's like detest on like sixes and sevens. As very manageable moderate.

01:26:05:25 - 01:26:07:04
Paul
Climbing because that's.

01:26:07:07 - 01:26:08:07
Paul
Already more than what you're.

01:26:08:07 - 01:26:08:24
Paul
Going to see.

01:26:08:24 - 01:26:10:06
Paul
In the wild.

01:26:10:09 - 01:26:12:13
Paul
Like an a combat deployment.

01:26:12:15 - 01:26:15:10
Paul
Yeah. Or you're not going to be like, oh, look at that.

01:26:15:10 - 01:26:21:09
Paul
Look at that icefall. We're going to like, go climb that icefall and be like, very obvious to anybody who's like seeing this from any.

01:26:21:14 - 01:26:30:22
Kyle
you know, it's almost like the the things that motivate recreational climbers to climb are not the same, are going to bring them to different places

01:26:30:24 - 01:26:33:20
Paul
Exactly.

01:26:33:22 - 01:26:39:03
Paul
Those it. Yeah. Yeah.

01:26:39:05 - 01:26:40:13
Paul
Potentially.

01:26:40:16 - 01:26:41:10
Paul
Or they.

01:26:41:10 - 01:26:45:28
Paul
Might have more objective hazards because it's not like an area that's typically traveled by.

01:26:46:04 - 01:26:47:10
Paul
People.

01:26:47:13 - 01:26:51:25
Paul
And so that's why avalanche risk mitigation is so important.

01:26:51:27 - 01:26:51:29
Paul
It.

01:26:52:02 - 01:26:55:13
Paul
Was like you might not have.

01:26:55:16 - 01:26:56:02
Paul
You might not have.

01:26:56:02 - 01:27:00:06
Paul
The ability to choose the day that you go out on a good tour because.

01:27:00:09 - 01:27:05:03
Paul
Like, it's a moderate day, like, we didn't get any snowfall. Like I think we'd be able to push.

01:27:05:03 - 01:27:16:11
Paul
It past, like, 35 or 40 degrees today on this tour. Operationally speaking, you have to be at this place at this time. And regardless of the hazard, you have to be able to know how to.

01:27:16:13 - 01:27:18:16
Paul
Travel and move through.

01:27:18:16 - 01:27:30:18
Paul
That, through the ice, through those hazards, despite the conditions and obviously the best, especially with drones and surveillance, like satellite space being so prevalent today, oftentimes the best time to travel in the mountains is when the conditions are.

01:27:30:18 - 01:27:33:23
Paul
Really, really shitty. So because of visibility.

01:27:33:23 - 01:27:41:15
Paul
And you can't get fixed wing air assets, you know, in a snowstorm, drones really difficult to fly at high altitude, let alone. And so.

01:27:41:16 - 01:27:42:24
Paul
Those issues.

01:27:42:24 - 01:27:52:13
Paul
Aside, risk management is something we take very seriously. And that we talked about the mentorship piece, we try to give the most we can to the students.

01:27:52:16 - 01:27:58:20
Paul
But, are you familiar with the Dunning-Kruger effect? The Dunning? I'll try to describe.

01:27:58:20 - 01:28:12:15
Paul
This without using a graph, but it's basically like the level of, confidence versus actual knowledge versus competence. Yeah. So, like as soon as somebody learns a new skill.

01:28:12:17 - 01:28:13:08
Paul
They're like, oh.

01:28:13:08 - 01:28:14:08
Paul
Yeah, I got this.

01:28:14:10 - 01:28:15:10
Paul
But it turns out.

01:28:15:10 - 01:28:16:11
Paul
They're not very competent.

01:28:16:13 - 01:28:17:25
Paul
So what would the Dunning-Kruger.

01:28:17:25 - 01:28:20:02
Paul
Effect is basically like? You start out here.

01:28:20:05 - 01:28:20:24
Paul
Then right off.

01:28:20:24 - 01:28:36:29
Paul
The bat, you think you're an expert in your field, and then something happens and you drop very far down because you realize that, like, you were not nearly as competent or capable as you thought you were. And then it's like slowly building back up, and you maybe you have an accident and it goes down a little bit. You have more confidence, you build it back up again.

01:28:37:06 - 01:28:44:20
Paul
So, at the schoolhouse, we teach in our risk management courses. I was we used to. I'm sure they still do.

01:28:44:23 - 01:29:04:24
Paul
The Dunning-Kruger effect. Like, be aware that you're going to graduate from this course. You were going to. You're leaving with, like, an area one Iraq. You're, specific to the Winter mountain operator. Course. You've now, like, been on ice probably for the first time. You spend weeks backcountry skiing and you going on all of these tours and then, like operating snowmobiles.

01:29:04:29 - 01:29:09:22
Paul
You're going to get back to your team and you're going to be like, let's go. Like, I got this.

01:29:09:24 - 01:29:11:10
Paul
And we want them.

01:29:11:10 - 01:29:16:24
Paul
To be very particular about understanding what risks they're now putting themselves and the untrained people back on their team.

01:29:16:24 - 01:29:17:26
Paul
On.

01:29:17:28 - 01:29:21:07
Paul
And as long as their awareness is half the battle when you're talking.

01:29:21:07 - 01:29:24:16
Paul
That, that effect. So, I think.

01:29:24:16 - 01:29:28:09
Paul
That's really important to recognize that. Like, yeah, you're getting these skills, but you are by no means a.

01:29:28:09 - 01:29:29:15
Paul
Master at.

01:29:29:15 - 01:29:38:28
Paul
Them. It's going to require consistent practice. You're going to have to continually get back out and, and these conditions,

01:29:39:01 - 01:29:39:16
Paul
For you to be.

01:29:39:16 - 01:29:47:24
Paul
Able to actually, like, understand some of these objective hazards.

01:29:47:26 - 01:29:57:19
Paul
Yeah.

01:29:57:21 - 01:30:01:09
Paul
Yeah.

01:30:01:12 - 01:30:05:15
Paul
Yeah. Because sometimes the best way to learn is to, like,

01:30:05:17 - 01:30:06:15
Paul
turn yourself in a fire.

01:30:06:15 - 01:30:08:08
Paul
And it's like.

01:30:08:10 - 01:30:17:00
Paul
Yeah, maybe I took, like, I trusted this. This has happened to me. Actually, I was, leading in the course, actually, as a student. And I was, you know, ego was part of it.

01:30:17:00 - 01:30:19:06
Paul
And I was like, yeah, I'll, I'll put up this this.

01:30:19:09 - 01:30:27:24
Paul
I think it was like an eight plus or a nine or something. I was like on the second patch and there was like this really cheesy, like, finger crack section.

01:30:27:27 - 01:30:29:24
Paul
And I got super grabbed. So I'm like, oh, no.

01:30:29:24 - 01:30:47:13
Paul
And I panicked. And so, like, I just threw a piece in that I didn't trust. And then I tried to French fry on it, and it's just like I watched the rock crumble around it. And then I took like a little, I don't know, like 6 to 10ft fall. It wasn't big, but fractured both of my heels. And so it was just like, right off the bat, I'm like, that was dumb.

01:30:47:13 - 01:30:50:20
Paul
I shouldn't have done that. Why did I do that?

01:30:50:23 - 01:30:51:12
Paul
Yeah, like.

01:30:51:12 - 01:30:52:11
Paul
Micro fractures on one.

01:30:52:11 - 01:30:57:03
Paul
And then like, no, it, now I've been.

01:30:57:04 - 01:31:01:15
Paul
For like two weeks. I ended up finishing the course climbing and approaches because I couldn't fit my swollen ass feet.

01:31:01:15 - 01:31:04:02
Paul
Into climbing shoes. But I had to.

01:31:04:06 - 01:31:11:10
Paul
Dial it way back, and that's an example of, like. Oh, I was super confident. Like, oh, yeah, I've been sport leading and trad leading for, you know, years.

01:31:11:13 - 01:31:12:04
Paul
This is fine.

01:31:12:04 - 01:31:24:20
Paul
And then you get overconfident and then something stupid like that happens. And now I'm limping through the rest of the four weeks of the course like an asshole.

01:31:24:22 - 01:31:32:14
Paul
Yeah. Yeah.

01:31:32:17 - 01:31:38:00
Paul
The only option is.

01:31:38:02 - 01:31:42:13
Paul
Yeah.

01:31:42:15 - 01:31:43:15
Paul
Yeah.

01:31:43:18 - 01:31:44:14
Paul
Maybe it all it would have.

01:31:44:14 - 01:31:45:20
Paul
Taken was like an instructor.

01:31:45:20 - 01:31:47:28
Paul
To be like you probably don't need to be doing that.

01:31:47:28 - 01:31:59:24
Paul
Like you can go lead like this five five over here and like whatever. But and that's, that's, that's a struggle to and obviously you know we talk a little bit like the, the SF personality.

01:31:59:24 - 01:32:00:24
Paul
Like the guys want to get.

01:32:00:24 - 01:32:02:09
Paul
Out and they want to get after it and they want.

01:32:02:09 - 01:32:03:27
Paul
To be like, oh, he, he can.

01:32:03:27 - 01:32:05:20
Paul
That, that means I can climb that. And they get up there and.

01:32:05:20 - 01:32:09:12
Paul
Like take a step back. Think about like.

01:32:09:14 - 01:32:10:02
Paul
Ego doesn't really.

01:32:10:02 - 01:32:11:04
Paul
Matter. Like, are.

01:32:11:04 - 01:32:11:13
Paul
You doing this.

01:32:11:13 - 01:32:13:18
Paul
Safely? Like, yeah, maybe you can.

01:32:13:18 - 01:32:23:29
Paul
Go up and you can crash and you can do something like, insane.

01:32:24:02 - 01:32:35:22
Kyle
is I mean, you guys are dealing like, at least for me, climbing is such a mirror like you, you're forced to reckon with, like, the internal thoughts that you have because you're in such like, such the state where you have to be so present.

01:32:35:24 - 01:32:56:23
Kyle
And if you've got these other voices in your head telling you certain narratives, or you've got things that are distracting you, it takes away from the moment and puts you in a more dangerous position because you're not paying attention to everything. To me, that's like, I've been trying to expand, like I said, emotional regulation. Like, how are we regulating our emotions as we lead up to these objectives and get ourselves into these mind states where we can actually perform?

01:32:56:25 - 01:33:00:05
Kyle
Is that like talked about in the schooling? Like, how have you approached that and you're climbing?

01:33:00:12 - 01:33:07:07
Paul
It is very it's I wouldn't say it's talked about but it's very much a part of, it's baked in to being a special operator.

01:33:07:09 - 01:33:08:06
Paul
Before you even.

01:33:08:06 - 01:33:12:06
Paul
Can go through the Q course, which is that two year long training pipeline.

01:33:12:06 - 01:33:13:28
Paul
I told you about, you have to do a.

01:33:13:28 - 01:33:22:28
Paul
Three week long, it's called, SFA's Special Forces assessment and Selection. And in that is like as, three weeks.

01:33:23:00 - 01:33:24:10
Paul
They're horrible.

01:33:24:12 - 01:33:26:16
Paul
They're putting you in extremely.

01:33:26:16 - 01:33:32:00
Paul
Difficult physical situations. Mental situations? They're psychiatrists.

01:33:32:03 - 01:33:34:11
Paul
Who are watching you,

01:33:34:13 - 01:33:36:14
Paul
Every single interaction.

01:33:36:16 - 01:33:38:12
Paul
With anybody is.

01:33:38:15 - 01:33:39:12
Paul
Is a test. It is.

01:33:39:12 - 01:33:42:12
Paul
Measured. And they are looking for people who are.

01:33:42:14 - 01:33:43:02
Paul
Calm and cool.

01:33:43:02 - 01:33:43:24
Paul
Headed.

01:33:43:27 - 01:33:45:16
Paul
And, but also very.

01:33:45:16 - 01:33:47:24
Paul
Capable. So,

01:33:47:26 - 01:33:53:06
Paul
By that, just being part of just the initial selection and then you have the two years long where they do talk about.

01:33:53:09 - 01:33:53:20
Paul
I mean.

01:33:53:20 - 01:34:03:14
Paul
I'm an officer so specific to like the 18 alpha mammals that that course there's very much, discussions with psychologists.

01:34:03:16 - 01:34:05:11
Paul
About,

01:34:05:14 - 01:34:24:24
Paul
How to make smart decisions when you are extremely stressed, how to work with people in those type of situations. So I think by virtue of having that as part of the selection process, by the time they even get to this advanced skills, maybe 3 or 4 years after the fact, they've already been specially selected, they've been trained.

01:34:25:00 - 01:34:30:21
Paul
Most of these guys have seen combat in some sense. So they show up to the Mountain School and it's.

01:34:30:23 - 01:34:31:05
Paul
Maybe.

01:34:31:05 - 01:34:43:12
Paul
Maybe a nice little vacation for them, honestly. But, and I think that's that's why people love mountaineering, why so many operators love mountaineering is because that that adrenaline and the fact that you can put yourself.

01:34:43:14 - 01:34:43:19
Paul
Can.

01:34:43:19 - 01:34:47:29
Paul
Push your boundaries, like whatever fear you might have in your head, even if it's doing a.

01:34:47:29 - 01:34:49:18
Paul
Very like I'll give you.

01:34:49:21 - 01:34:56:01
Paul
I haven't like I mentioned, I haven't traveled in like, two and a half years, or a year, and a half until this week.

01:34:56:04 - 01:34:58:00
Paul
And like, I'm getting.

01:34:58:00 - 01:35:03:10
Paul
Gripped, leading a five, six, five, seven. And it's like, I'll admit that to you because I don't really care.

01:35:03:15 - 01:35:05:08
Paul
But, like.

01:35:05:10 - 01:35:11:26
Paul
That's the draw for me is taking like a mental barrier and being able to to push past that, even if it's at like.

01:35:11:26 - 01:35:12:17
Paul
A low.

01:35:12:24 - 01:35:16:14
Paul
Skill level, like it's still a very personal win, you know.

01:35:16:21 - 01:35:18:12
Paul
And like that rush and you get to the top and.

01:35:18:12 - 01:35:20:00
Paul
You're just like, yeah.

01:35:20:02 - 01:35:21:24
Paul
And then that's fun. And like we're.

01:35:21:24 - 01:35:30:17
Paul
Having a good time. But then that has to be the case. If now you're doing this under fire and put yourself in the shoes of those operators back in World War two.

01:35:30:20 - 01:35:30:25
Paul
Who.

01:35:30:25 - 01:35:43:05
Paul
Had German machine gun nests looking down the cooler air coming up, and they had to be so quiet about it. Otherwise they're just going to get them and all their friends killed. So like the the stress, the stakes are incredibly high.

01:35:43:08 - 01:35:43:24
Paul
And you and.

01:35:43:24 - 01:35:45:05
Paul
The special operators luckily.

01:35:45:06 - 01:35:47:20
Paul
Are there are different breed man.

01:35:47:20 - 01:35:57:28
Paul
There are different breed because they have to be.

01:35:58:00 - 01:36:00:21
Paul
Yeah.

01:36:00:23 - 01:36:03:12
Kyle
some. It's cool to see the representation.

01:36:03:14 - 01:36:04:07
Paul
Yeah.

01:36:04:09 - 01:36:11:01
Paul
And there's a lot of there's a lot of other, veterans, some special operations who are now guides. I mentioned a.

01:36:11:01 - 01:36:12:15
Paul
Little bit before,

01:36:12:17 - 01:36:14:25
Paul
Like SAS Tak has some great ones over.

01:36:14:25 - 01:36:16:03
Paul
There.

01:36:16:06 - 01:36:18:15
Paul
Like former seals.

01:36:18:17 - 01:36:21:19
Paul
Peak Rescue has been attracting a lot of great.

01:36:21:21 - 01:36:32:19
Paul
Veterans. Now, Pisgah Guide service out North Carolina. They do a lot of work with the Marines, and now they're getting some, some marine operators, getting through like the guide track. So I.

01:36:32:19 - 01:36:34:09
Paul
Think,

01:36:34:11 - 01:36:49:02
Paul
But even the industry is recognizing, like, these special operators come from extraordinary backgrounds, and they're very dedicated people, and they wanted to be the best at what they do. Turns out that makes really good guides and mountain athletes.

01:36:49:02 - 01:36:49:18
Paul
Yeah.

01:36:49:20 - 01:37:11:06
Kyle
Before we get back to it, if you've been listening to the show, you probably know how much time and effort and love I put into this project. The research, the conversations, the production, the editing, all of it. And while it might seem like I've got a team of people on this project, I don't. It's just me. And even with sponsors, I spend a large amount of my own personal money on this project simply because I love it.

01:37:11:08 - 01:37:35:02
Kyle
If you are a listener that's looking for a way to give back to the show in a meaningful way. Please become a Patreon subscriber. Once you become a supporting member of the Climbing Majority, not only will you feel really good about yourself, but you'll also get access to the ad free version of the show and exclusive content. If this speaks to you, click the link in the description or go to Patreon.com Slash the Climbing Majority podcast to become a supporting member of the show today.

01:37:35:04 - 01:37:49:09
Kyle
Unless you have anything else to talk about on your kind of, role in the military as a commander or your expertise in that field, I'd love to close off the conversation with, your accent on the mountain.

01:37:49:11 - 01:37:50:24
Paul
Yeah, sure, we can talk about it.

01:37:51:00 - 01:37:51:19
Paul
I mean, I.

01:37:51:19 - 01:37:57:11
Paul
Want to be very clear, like, before we get into that, like, these are my own personal. Is there.

01:37:57:11 - 01:37:59:16
Paul
Not, like, representative of.

01:37:59:18 - 01:38:09:16
Paul
The Army Special forces, the Naval Postgraduate School, so com or anything, and that I am not an expert in Mountain warfare.

01:38:09:18 - 01:38:10:01
Paul
I've been through.

01:38:10:01 - 01:38:11:02
Paul
The courses I commanded at the.

01:38:11:02 - 01:38:11:20
Paul
Level.

01:38:11:23 - 01:38:16:04
Paul
I'm in very early stages of the guide track myself.

01:38:16:06 - 01:38:18:03
Paul
But, like my.

01:38:18:03 - 01:38:20:29
Paul
Personal skill and experience pales in comparison.

01:38:21:06 - 01:38:22:12
Paul
To.

01:38:22:14 - 01:38:26:03
Paul
The instructors at the course right now and even guys on teams around.

01:38:26:03 - 01:38:28:08
Paul
The world.

01:38:28:11 - 01:38:33:09
Paul
Those dudes are crushing it. And you'll never hear their names because they're too busy crushing it. Whereas I happened.

01:38:33:09 - 01:38:36:19
Paul
To, you know, I had.

01:38:36:19 - 01:38:44:01
Paul
Some work published now, and I'm doing research in this because I'm passionate about it. And so I feel like I'm in a position now to advocate on their behalf, even though I am.

01:38:44:01 - 01:38:45:04
Paul
Like I am.

01:38:45:04 - 01:38:47:06
Paul
A practitioner and operator. Yes.

01:38:47:08 - 01:38:50:07
Paul
But I am not like, I'm not a tanner, you.

01:38:50:07 - 01:38:54:17
Paul
Know, I'm not going out. I'm doing I'm not doing the quad or anything like that.

01:38:54:19 - 01:38:55:21
Paul
Yeah.

01:38:55:23 - 01:39:14:28
Kyle
in no position to be any sort of athlete or in that realm, but I'm here sharing stories of people who are so, Yeah, but I respect the humility there for sure. Yeah. This accident, so obviously tactical optimism got really deep into the to the whole accident.

01:39:15:00 - 01:39:36:11
Kyle
You know, for people who are interested in hearing the play by play, you can definitely go there. I guess I'm like, I want to try to steer the conversation about this specifically to like how Bobby got you, how he saved you, because in the in the episode, it was kind of just like, yeah, he kind of like rappelled down and down, climbed some cliffs and got to me, is there more to that?

01:39:36:11 - 01:39:45:10
Kyle
Is there more kind of like, depth to the reality of what he did

01:39:45:13 - 01:39:47:07
Paul
Yeah. I think there is.

01:39:47:07 - 01:39:50:02
Paul
There's certainly more to that story.

01:39:50:05 - 01:39:54:15
Paul
And I guess.

01:39:54:17 - 01:39:58:04
Paul
Sure. I.

01:39:58:06 - 01:39:58:17
Paul
Sure.

01:39:58:17 - 01:39:59:17
Paul
Yeah. Quick.

01:39:59:17 - 01:40:00:17
Paul
Overview.

01:40:00:19 - 01:40:01:26
Paul
I was ski mountaineering.

01:40:01:26 - 01:40:02:17
Paul
And.

01:40:02:17 - 01:40:03:05
Paul
Telluride.

01:40:03:07 - 01:40:04:12
Paul
Colorado just.

01:40:04:15 - 01:40:07:22
Paul
In my free time. My ski partner.

01:40:07:24 - 01:40:13:13
Paul
Was really, really close friend of mine, also an instructor at the Mountain School.

01:40:13:15 - 01:40:22:23
Paul
We were ski in Wilson Peak, which is a 14 year out there. The North Face, called the North Face cooler called, course, cooler is one of the 50 classics.

01:40:22:25 - 01:40:24:09
Paul
I.

01:40:24:12 - 01:40:26:13
Paul
Encountered.

01:40:26:16 - 01:40:35:18
Paul
A rock very close on the top underneath my ski. Sort of, you know, an objective hazard. There's a rock slightly buried with, like, a little bit covering of snow.

01:40:35:20 - 01:40:38:01
Paul
And I ended up,

01:40:38:03 - 01:40:39:29
Paul
Having a 2200ft fall down the.

01:40:39:29 - 01:40:40:20
Paul
Whole,

01:40:40:22 - 01:40:41:18
Paul
North face of.

01:40:41:22 - 01:40:42:04
Paul
Of.

01:40:42:04 - 01:40:42:14
Paul
Wilson.

01:40:42:14 - 01:40:43:27
Paul
Peak.

01:40:43:29 - 01:40:54:07
Paul
About halfway down, I ended up in an avalanche of my own stuff. It's hard to do self management when your tomahawk thing turns out.

01:40:54:09 - 01:40:54:19
Paul
And then.

01:40:54:19 - 01:40:58:15
Paul
That avalanche carried me over several, cliff bands.

01:40:58:18 - 01:41:01:15
Paul
And somehow I was only partially, like, buried from.

01:41:01:15 - 01:41:02:00
Paul
Like, my.

01:41:02:00 - 01:41:03:04
Paul
Thighs down on.

01:41:03:04 - 01:41:09:09
Paul
The apron below. Very, very banged up, very beat up.

01:41:09:12 - 01:41:16:12
Kyle
we've all seen the videos of people in ski accidents. Like Tomahawk. Like a real tomahawk. Was there. Was that

01:41:16:14 - 01:41:24:17
Paul
yeah. Right.

01:41:24:19 - 01:41:26:27
Paul
No, I was completely I was like, I only.

01:41:26:27 - 01:41:28:11
Paul
Tomahawk for maybe like.

01:41:28:13 - 01:41:37:18
Paul
I always, I think I was conscious for the whole time. All the time. Like maybe for, like for only 400 or 500ft. And then I was able to sort of a rest and, I slowed.

01:41:37:18 - 01:41:38:28
Paul
Down, I.

01:41:38:28 - 01:41:43:21
Paul
Almost stopped, came to a complete stop, actually, at the bottom of the cooler. And then the stuff caught me.

01:41:43:24 - 01:41:46:18
Kyle
when you're Tomahawk and it's, like, fully out of control.

01:41:46:25 - 01:41:50:04
Paul
Yeah. Just hand like ragdoll man.

01:41:50:06 - 01:41:54:28
Paul
Yeah. It was actually interesting. Shortly after my accident,

01:41:55:01 - 01:42:04:28
Paul
Another skier. I wish I knew his name. He had a similar tumble tomahawk off the, I think I like the northwest face of Marin Peak in Colorado.

01:42:05:00 - 01:42:08:18
Paul
And he had his GoPro on, and he posted that video a.

01:42:08:18 - 01:42:14:20
Paul
Week after my accident. I was in, like, the ICU in the hospital.

01:42:14:22 - 01:42:17:09
Paul
Yeah. You've probably seen it. But like.

01:42:17:09 - 01:42:29:06
Paul
That video, like I watched it while I was in the hospital bed and I was like, yep, that was it. So do you want to like, first, first person in your perspective go watch that video again.

01:42:29:08 - 01:42:29:19
Paul
But.

01:42:29:19 - 01:42:35:06
Paul
Yeah. So it was like that until I was buried in the avalanche and obviously everything went black.

01:42:35:08 - 01:42:40:28
Paul
And then I ended up, 20, 200ft down.

01:42:41:00 - 01:42:44:15
Paul
Collapsed lung, broken ribs, broken hands.

01:42:44:17 - 01:42:45:13
Paul
Broken wrist.

01:42:45:19 - 01:42:46:05
Paul
Knee.

01:42:46:05 - 01:42:46:29
Paul
Bone was sticking.

01:42:46:29 - 01:42:47:26
Paul
Out a lot of.

01:42:47:26 - 01:42:52:19
Paul
Blood. And then heavy internal bleeding, because my intestines had actually separated.

01:42:52:19 - 01:42:53:14
Paul
From.

01:42:53:17 - 01:43:05:04
Paul
The mesh that holds them in place. And, so I was hypothermic. I was in shock, and I knew it. I knew that's what I was going through. And so.

01:43:05:07 - 01:43:09:23
Paul
I, I radioed up to Bob to Bobby, and I was like, hey, man.

01:43:09:25 - 01:43:12:14
Paul
Like, I'm conscious.

01:43:12:16 - 01:43:15:04
Paul
I really need you to get down to me, but.

01:43:15:04 - 01:43:16:19
Paul
Please do not rush because.

01:43:16:19 - 01:43:17:12
Paul
Like.

01:43:17:15 - 01:43:18:02
Paul
I don't want him to.

01:43:18:02 - 01:43:19:08
Paul
Fall because.

01:43:19:08 - 01:43:21:27
Paul
Now we know there's, like, buried sharks at the top of this.

01:43:21:27 - 01:43:23:06
Paul
Cooler.

01:43:23:08 - 01:43:25:05
Paul
And so he,

01:43:25:08 - 01:43:26:25
Paul
He ended up taking the.

01:43:26:25 - 01:43:30:28
Paul
Skis off, and he booted down the cooler.

01:43:31:01 - 01:43:33:25
Paul
Which was like 6 to 800ft of just, like, booting down.

01:43:33:26 - 01:43:34:25
Paul
You know.

01:43:34:28 - 01:43:37:10
Paul
Skis in your hands, like.

01:43:37:12 - 01:43:38:03
Paul
I mean, he.

01:43:38:04 - 01:43:46:18
Paul
He did have ice, actually. He probably probably did use, one. Yeah. We had just a small mountaineering ax. But because,

01:43:46:21 - 01:43:50:15
Paul
And we had a rad line, but you can't, like, you can't.

01:43:50:19 - 01:43:51:23
Paul
Use a rad line down 20.

01:43:51:23 - 01:43:53:17
Paul
200ft. And.

01:43:53:17 - 01:43:55:01
Paul
There's nobody there to, you.

01:43:55:01 - 01:43:57:07
Paul
Know, to belay him off of anything.

01:43:57:09 - 01:44:01:27
Paul
And so he basically did a solo down climb descent of the entire 20 200ft base.

01:44:01:29 - 01:44:05:05
Paul
Which was a remarkable feat,

01:44:05:08 - 01:44:21:07
Paul
Because even though we were like, in radio contact, we couldn't see each other, I was like, too close to the cliff face. He was too far up. So he didn't know exactly where I was. I tried to describe it to him. He doesn't want to kick off anything else over me. Does my any left to come down further bear me?

01:44:21:07 - 01:44:22:04
Paul
I was not able to.

01:44:22:04 - 01:44:25:09
Paul
Move out of the, out of the path.

01:44:25:11 - 01:44:28:18
Paul
And so he not only did it down climb this successfully.

01:44:28:20 - 01:44:32:06
Paul
But he did it in such a way where like, no stuff came down.

01:44:32:06 - 01:44:35:26
Paul
There was nothing else triggered to get down to me. So it was.

01:44:35:26 - 01:44:39:05
Paul
Just truly a Herculean feat.

01:44:39:08 - 01:44:42:08
Paul
And it took him like an hour and a half maybe.

01:44:42:11 - 01:44:46:17
Paul
To get down. Yeah. There was he went down.

01:44:46:17 - 01:44:47:20
Paul
The cliff bands too.

01:44:47:22 - 01:44:50:28
Paul
Because, I, I had told him like, hey.

01:44:51:05 - 01:44:52:11
Paul
I don't see any cliffs below.

01:44:52:11 - 01:44:54:22
Paul
Me. But he.

01:44:54:23 - 01:45:06:22
Paul
I mean, he does know that. And then his fear was that if he. Because the route traverses skier's left out into this other face and he ski that down, he was afraid that if he went around and then skied down.

01:45:06:27 - 01:45:07:22
Paul
He wouldn't be able to get.

01:45:07:22 - 01:45:10:21
Paul
Back up to me in time.

01:45:10:23 - 01:45:14:13
Paul
Because he, he's a medic. He's combat medic. And so.

01:45:14:16 - 01:45:14:27
Paul
He wanted.

01:45:14:27 - 01:45:16:26
Paul
To do a triage, basically.

01:45:16:29 - 01:45:21:05
Paul
And I'm glad that he did, because, even though I was able.

01:45:21:05 - 01:45:23:25
Paul
Like, package stop my own bleeding.

01:45:23:27 - 01:45:25:21
Paul
He did a quick abdominal.

01:45:25:21 - 01:45:26:14
Paul
Test, and he's like, hey.

01:45:26:14 - 01:45:28:24
Paul
Man, like, I think you probably have a.

01:45:28:24 - 01:45:30:07
Paul
Collapsed lung and.

01:45:30:09 - 01:45:30:24
Paul
Internal.

01:45:30:24 - 01:45:39:07
Paul
Internal hemorrhage. Like, you need to get off this mountain right now. And so by that time,

01:45:39:09 - 01:45:41:08
Paul
Search and rescue had been notified.

01:45:41:10 - 01:45:43:18
Paul
And, like, maybe.

01:45:43:18 - 01:45:50:11
Paul
30 minutes to an hour after Bobby got to me, there was a helicopter, little bird from San Miguel County Search and Rescue that.

01:45:50:14 - 01:46:01:22
Paul
Came in, picked me up, ran to the hospital. I was there for two weeks.

01:46:01:24 - 01:46:02:12
Paul
Well, all the.

01:46:02:12 - 01:46:04:09
Paul
All the search and rescue guys.

01:46:04:11 - 01:46:05:01
Paul
There.

01:46:05:03 - 01:46:06:28
Paul
Like, what did you what did you fall down?

01:46:06:28 - 01:46:09:12
Paul
And then they're like, he they pointed at Mount.

01:46:09:19 - 01:46:11:03
Paul
Wilson because people have died.

01:46:11:03 - 01:46:16:03
Paul
In that cooler, before, and they're like. And you.

01:46:16:05 - 01:46:18:08
Paul
Survived.

01:46:18:10 - 01:46:21:24
Paul
So that was,

01:46:21:26 - 01:46:22:14
Paul
Yeah, that was.

01:46:22:14 - 01:46:25:02
Paul
A very humbling experience.

01:46:25:04 - 01:46:26:29
Paul
And I.

01:46:27:02 - 01:46:31:02
Paul
Yeah, yeah, they, I think I.

01:46:31:02 - 01:46:33:18
Paul
Wasn't as visibly broken as they thought.

01:46:33:18 - 01:46:34:13
Paul
I would be.

01:46:34:15 - 01:46:41:03
Paul
Because I, I remember like, the fight for life guy because they, the little bird dropped me off at, like, the Telluride airport. And then a bigger.

01:46:41:03 - 01:46:42:14
Paul
Like,

01:46:42:16 - 01:46:44:29
Paul
Blackhawk took me to Grand Junction, and.

01:46:45:02 - 01:46:46:06
Paul
I remember the paramedic.

01:46:46:06 - 01:46:50:28
Paul
In that in the Blackhawk. Or it was about it was, Bell helicopter.

01:46:51:00 - 01:46:59:05
Paul
He was like, I because I climbed in on my own, basically, like I climbed in, lay down because they were trying to carry me. And I was like, that hurts. Like, can I please just let me walk?

01:46:59:10 - 01:46:59:26
Paul
Because the way they're.

01:46:59:26 - 01:47:20:02
Paul
Carrying me, it was just like messing up things even more. And so I was like, I can literally hop on my left leg and like, pull up with my left arm, I think. So they let me like climb in there, like with the dude who just fell 2200 pages, climbed into the helicopter, and so they were surprised. I of course, I get to the, the hospital and the surgeons, were basically like.

01:47:20:02 - 01:47:22:15
Paul
Hey, man, like, you're lucky to be here.

01:47:22:15 - 01:47:26:04
Paul
We need to operate immediately. Otherwise, like,

01:47:26:07 - 01:47:27:26
Paul
You might,

01:47:27:29 - 01:47:30:09
Paul
Everything there's a lot of stuff in there. There's going to chronic.

01:47:30:10 - 01:47:31:07
Paul
Already.

01:47:31:10 - 01:47:36:03
Paul
There. Like there's a 60, 70% chance that your.

01:47:36:05 - 01:47:36:27
Paul
What, that little.

01:47:36:28 - 01:47:37:27
Paul
Colostomy bag.

01:47:37:27 - 01:47:39:00
Paul
Thing like you.

01:47:39:00 - 01:47:45:25
Paul
Have that the rest of your life. And so I was trying to get him to wait till my wife got there, because I wanted to see her, because I was very emotional.

01:47:45:27 - 01:47:47:06
Paul
And, they're.

01:47:47:07 - 01:47:47:26
Paul
Like, I'm sorry.

01:47:47:26 - 01:47:49:06
Paul
Like, we got to go.

01:47:49:09 - 01:47:51:04
Paul
And then I was in, like, an induced.

01:47:51:06 - 01:47:57:29
Paul
Coma for like, 48 hours. And then luckily, everything worked out.

01:47:58:02 - 01:48:05:26
Paul
No sepsis. They removed about a third of my intestines that had gotten necrotic. And then it was just like, two months.

01:48:05:26 - 01:48:06:17
Paul
Long.

01:48:06:20 - 01:48:08:21
Paul
Well, 2 to 4 months of just.

01:48:08:24 - 01:48:09:10
Paul
Going really.

01:48:09:10 - 01:48:09:20
Paul
Hard.

01:48:09:20 - 01:48:13:24
Paul
Physical therapy. And I didn't want to do any more.

01:48:13:24 - 01:48:30:07
Paul
Operations on my knee or anything like that or my hand. So it was just, doing a grind to get my body back because I was still the commander of some medic at the time, and I needed to get back, to the guys.

01:48:30:09 - 01:48:35:22
Paul
95, 95, knee. Still, I got a bunch of, like.

01:48:35:22 - 01:48:43:22
Paul
GI issues we don't need to go into detail about just from the fact that I had so much removed. Like, things were just different for me now, but,

01:48:43:24 - 01:48:45:19
Paul
No, I,

01:48:45:22 - 01:48:55:16
Paul
That Greenland expedition that we went on was eight months after the accident. I did a bunch of ski mentoring in Alaska after that.

01:48:55:19 - 01:48:56:05
Paul
Bobby.

01:48:56:06 - 01:48:57:26
Paul
Guy saved my life.

01:48:57:29 - 01:48:58:04
Paul
We.

01:48:58:04 - 01:49:04:04
Paul
Did, like, a ski trip to Canada. Rogers passed a bunch of. We did another, classic up there the following winter.

01:49:04:04 - 01:49:08:03
Paul
So, I'm not slowing down. Even though.

01:49:08:04 - 01:49:08:17
Paul
My wife.

01:49:08:17 - 01:49:09:16
Paul
Got me a knitting kit.

01:49:09:23 - 01:49:20:29
Paul
As, like, a gift after my accident. It's like, oh, so you're going to start doing mountain stuff right now? It's probably net.

01:49:21:01 - 01:49:23:15
Paul
Yeah.

01:49:23:17 - 01:49:41:21
Paul
That'd be great. Yeah. Awesome.

01:49:41:24 - 01:49:43:24
Paul
Sure. It could.

01:49:43:27 - 01:49:45:12
Paul
And I,

01:49:45:14 - 01:49:48:28
Paul
I can't take, you know, all the credit for my own recovery obviously.

01:49:49:01 - 01:49:53:18
Paul
We have Olympic level,

01:49:53:20 - 01:50:01:24
Paul
Resources at our disposal, human performance centers with nutritionists, dietitians who are building, like, personalized plans for me.

01:50:01:27 - 01:50:02:23
Paul
Like.

01:50:02:26 - 01:50:17:15
Paul
Special ops physical therapists is like a thing. Strength and conditioning trainers. I was fortunate enough, after this accident, the Green Beret Foundation, Special Forces Foundation.

01:50:17:17 - 01:50:18:03
Paul
The Green.

01:50:18:03 - 01:50:18:28
Paul
Beret racing.

01:50:18:29 - 01:50:19:24
Paul
Team.

01:50:19:27 - 01:50:28:27
Paul
They all donated, to, like, get me specialized gym equipment so that I could, like, do recovery in my house. So I'd be.

01:50:28:29 - 01:50:29:20
Paul
Like.

01:50:29:22 - 01:50:32:07
Paul
The first six weeks, like, I couldn't leave my house, so I had to do.

01:50:32:07 - 01:50:33:22
Paul
Everything there and then.

01:50:33:22 - 01:50:41:00
Paul
So they gave me the resources I needed. And we had those incredible professionals at the human Performance Centers to, like.

01:50:41:02 - 01:50:41:11
Paul
Get me.

01:50:41:11 - 01:50:43:03
Paul
Back 100. And that's what they do.

01:50:43:05 - 01:50:43:14
Paul
Yeah.

01:50:43:14 - 01:50:47:26
Paul
Whether you're injured in a parachuting accident and combat related.

01:50:47:28 - 01:50:48:29
Paul
Injury.

01:50:49:02 - 01:50:53:03
Paul
Like they get operators back to 100% as fast as I can, and they're.

01:50:53:03 - 01:50:54:17
Paul
Really good at it.

01:50:54:20 - 01:51:01:12
Paul
So very fortunate. If I wasn't in Special Forces, if I didn't have those resources, I can't tell you that I'd probably still be doing this stuff.

01:51:01:15 - 01:51:21:12
Kyle
For somebody who is listening to this, whether they're already a part of the military or maybe not a part of the military, but passionate about the mountains and climbing and might be interested in kind of pursuing, these courses and this trajectory that you've kind of laid out, like maybe what advice do you have for them or.

01:51:21:14 - 01:51:23:13
Paul
Gosh. What advice?

01:51:23:15 - 01:51:25:12
Paul
I mean, if you're if you're if you're a.

01:51:25:13 - 01:51:27:23
Paul
If you're crushing, climbing and you're thinking.

01:51:28:00 - 01:51:28:27
Paul
How can I become a mountain.

01:51:28:27 - 01:51:38:25
Paul
Guide on the Army's dime, then? Yeah, you can come work for some medic, but unfortunately, there's a lot of other gates that you have to pass through to get to that point, including.

01:51:38:28 - 01:51:59:24
Kyle
asking is because I think a lot of climbers, there's the whole dirtbag lifestyle, like no job and like, obviously the military and those kind of lifestyles are bit, you know, you would imagine that they would kind of the personalities would, would butt heads. But I don't know, maybe there's an opportunity there, maybe there's like, for the people who are, you know, because we're all trying to build a lifestyle that is somewhat around climbing.

01:51:59:24 - 01:52:03:08
Kyle
Right. Maybe this is an avenue that some

01:52:03:11 - 01:52:05:09
Paul
Absolutely.

01:52:05:12 - 01:52:07:26
Paul
It absolutely could be. I mean, for me it was a huge.

01:52:07:26 - 01:52:08:29
Paul
Like recruiting point.

01:52:08:29 - 01:52:26:16
Paul
I mean for officers we have to serve in the conventional army before we can go to selection. And Q course, I was a an engineer officer, actually, I was stationed in Alaska, for about four years. And one of the reasons I went, SF is because I was sucking in the army in the.

01:52:26:16 - 01:52:27:26
Paul
Cold in my.

01:52:27:26 - 01:52:36:05
Paul
1960s era, cold weather boots and mittens. And I saw this 10th group, snowmobile team, just like, zip past me.

01:52:36:07 - 01:52:37:13
Paul
They went up and they.

01:52:37:20 - 01:52:45:23
Paul
Drove their snowmobiles on the back of a Chinook and took off to go do some mission. And I was just like, that guy's quality of life is way better than mine. And so I.

01:52:46:00 - 01:52:46:04
Paul
You.

01:52:46:04 - 01:52:47:21
Paul
Know, that draw to me was like, I want to be.

01:52:47:21 - 01:52:51:13
Paul
That guy. And so I.

01:52:51:13 - 01:52:52:18
Paul
Tried I went to selection.

01:52:52:20 - 01:52:55:24
Paul
I think there's a lot of, really.

01:52:55:24 - 01:52:57:20
Paul
Cool things happening in the special operations.

01:52:57:20 - 01:53:00:17
Paul
World where they need people who are.

01:53:00:20 - 01:53:05:02
Paul
Exceptional athletes, special mountain athletes.

01:53:05:05 - 01:53:07:09
Paul
Especially today. But all the.

01:53:07:09 - 01:53:08:07
Paul
Craziness that's going.

01:53:08:07 - 01:53:09:24
Paul
On, so.

01:53:09:27 - 01:53:11:10
Paul
If that's something you're interested in.

01:53:11:15 - 01:53:11:25
Paul
Like.

01:53:11:25 - 01:53:15:26
Paul
Special operations mountain or mountain operator it was the very top of my list, and.

01:53:15:26 - 01:53:21:21
Paul
Luckily I was able to to check it off. And I think if I can do it, probably other people can.

01:53:21:24 - 01:53:26:28
Paul
For people,

01:53:27:01 - 01:53:28:29
Paul
I've been pretty public about the accident.

01:53:28:29 - 01:53:41:17
Paul
And like podcasts and stuff, but like, I'm generally like, everything else is pretty private. Some were like, even, like, barely even has a webpage. You can't go and really find out about it.

01:53:41:19 - 01:53:48:14
Paul
Maybe if you follow like so. Com on Instagram every now and then you'll see some mountain operations happening. But then look.

01:53:48:14 - 01:53:51:05
Paul
For more academic writing.

01:53:51:07 - 01:53:54:22
Paul
In the next couple and the next few months. As I finish up my time here.

01:53:54:22 - 01:53:57:27
Paul
Before I return to command.

01:53:57:29 - 01:53:59:21
Paul
Thanks.

01:53:59:23 - 01:54:02:26
Paul
Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate you letting me put.

01:54:02:26 - 01:54:03:22
Paul
These stories out there.

01:54:03:22 - 01:54:05:01
Paul
And.

01:54:05:03 - 01:54:06:06
Paul
Show some love for the guys of.

01:54:06:06 - 01:54:16:14
Paul
Somewhat like who? That they're just crushers, man. And not.

01:54:16:16 - 01:54:17:02
Paul
Yeah.

01:54:17:04 - 01:54:18:21
Paul
There are mountain warriors.

01:54:18:21 - 01:54:20:19
Paul
Out there trying to.

01:54:20:21 - 01:54:23:09
Paul
To keep the American dream alive for the oppressed.