118 | Phillp Setter: Shenanigans, Mt. Yamnuska, & How To Live A Full Life

Philip Setter is an insurance broker and software entrepreneur from Canada who's been climbing for over a decade. He is known to quietly solo some of the gnarliest ice the Canadian Rockies has to offer and has an affinity for chossy, runout, dangerous, and psychologically demanding routes.

Phil has a tangible passion and enthusiasm to extract the most out of life. Whether its in business, his partnerships, or in climbing he gives everything 100%. Part of life's meaning for Phil is triumphing through adversity and the shenanigans he seems to always find himself in provide the perfect place for him to create the memories and stories that will last a lifetime. But what's the difference between shenanigans worth pushing through and those that become reckless?  What does it mean to build a life that holds space for risk while being responsible to the people who depend on you?

Expect to learn about Phil's framework for ice climbing risk assessment, how he tore his A2 pulley and how peptides accelerated his recovery, what it's like selling life insurance to climbers who might not want to admit they're doing something dangerous, why many accomplished climbers have something else in their life besides climbing, how he works on setting boundaries, how we define success & failure, the role vices play in our lives, and much more…

#iceclimbing #tradclimbing #mountaineering

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Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:01:12
Phil
How many guests, like, wigged out at.

00:00:01:12 - 00:00:03:27
Phil
All this fucking shit?

00:00:03:29 - 00:00:04:14
Kyle
a lot.

00:00:04:14 - 00:00:06:15
Phil
Yeah. Ha ha.

00:00:06:18 - 00:00:08:18
Kyle
a lot. I think people are pretty nervous.

00:00:08:21 - 00:00:11:18
Phil
Did I forget I'm in front of the camera a lot.

00:00:11:18 - 00:00:14:08
Phil
Even for my job. And I'm like, there's a lot of fucking shit happening.

00:00:14:08 - 00:00:15:05
Phil
I got lights over their.

00:00:15:11 - 00:00:18:01
Phil
Cameras or they're like.

00:00:18:03 - 00:00:19:26
Phil
I only got one key light in my set up.

00:00:19:27 - 00:00:22:24
Phil
You got fucking one, two, three, four.

00:00:22:26 - 00:00:24:19
Phil
Five

00:00:24:22 - 00:00:25:27
Kyle
Six lights in total.

00:00:26:00 - 00:00:26:28
Phil
Yeah.

00:00:27:00 - 00:00:28:16
Phil
Oh, no. I got back lights, too, actually.

00:00:28:16 - 00:00:28:20
Kyle
the

00:00:28:26 - 00:00:29:08
Phil
Yeah.

00:00:29:12 - 00:00:30:10
Kyle
Dude, if you're going to

00:00:30:13 - 00:00:35:07
Phil
Have you seen. I'll show you my. I'll show you my my little my little office set up there.

00:00:35:07 - 00:00:35:13
Kyle
love

00:00:35:13 - 00:00:40:05
Phil
You'll probably laugh at it. And you'll you'll be like, what the fuck? You'll be like, yeah, it's good man.

00:00:40:06 - 00:00:40:18
Phil
Yeah, yeah.

00:00:40:19 - 00:00:47:28
Phil
I can't even fucking see your face. The composition is off, the lighting is shit. Have you actually zoomed in on anything?

00:00:48:00 - 00:00:48:11
Kyle
All right dude.

00:00:48:11 - 00:00:49:02
Kyle
Well welcome

00:00:49:02 - 00:00:55:00
Phil
Dude. Thank you. Yeah I think this is like our third podcast together. So is this. Am I, like, the longest running

00:00:55:03 - 00:00:56:04
Kyle
Bryce has your beat.

00:00:56:05 - 00:01:02:00
Phil
Oh. Is he. How many does he have? Damn it. But I'll come back. I'll come back another six months. We got four.

00:01:02:00 - 00:01:02:08
Phil
And

00:01:02:11 - 00:01:04:12
Kyle
one of the ones you had was a Patreon exclusive

00:01:04:12 - 00:01:05:00
Phil
Yeah.

00:01:05:03 - 00:01:06:02
Phil
Yeah.

00:01:06:04 - 00:01:09:28
Phil
I was with no, I wasn't, I was with Bryce. Oh, it was with Bryce. Yeah that's right. Yeah.

00:01:09:28 - 00:01:10:27
Phil
Yeah okay. Yeah,

00:01:11:04 - 00:01:15:11
Kyle
I thought you both had just, like, such different personalities. It was great.

00:01:15:12 - 00:01:20:14
Phil
Yeah. Bryce is very like he's like yes. We're step one, step two, step three. And I'm like, I don't know.

00:01:20:14 - 00:01:23:09
Phil
You just go out there and kind of wigs and things, peaks and valleys and

00:01:23:12 - 00:01:24:16
Kyle
vibes are good. I'm not climbing

00:01:24:16 - 00:01:26:08
Phil
yeah you gotta check the energy, make sure it's all good.

00:01:26:08 - 00:01:28:17
Phil
He's like, we're going to do step one, step two, step three. And then we're.

00:01:28:17 - 00:01:29:21
Phil
Going to step four.

00:01:29:28 - 00:01:30:14
Kyle
exactly.

00:01:30:19 - 00:01:32:19
Phil
Yeah that's great. Well yeah thanks man. Appreciate being back.

00:01:32:23 - 00:01:33:07
Kyle
Of course. Man.

00:01:33:11 - 00:01:33:17
Phil
Yeah

00:01:33:20 - 00:01:39:24
Kyle
Yeah. I think, just to get things started here, I think, we, when we were first, like, linked up

00:01:39:24 - 00:01:41:17
Kyle
we talked about the word shenanigans.

00:01:41:19 - 00:01:42:21
Phil
Okay. Did we.

00:01:42:23 - 00:02:02:27
Kyle
Yeah. And just like, I think that, at least for my experience, like, interacting with you, like, a lot of the times, the stories you tell, the experiences you have in the mountain, it's like there's sometimes this fulcrum point of, like, shenanigans, and it's almost like pitched in this sense of like, positive memory,

00:02:02:29 - 00:02:07:21
Kyle
like, it was it was a source of pride, a source of like, energy, like

00:02:07:24 - 00:02:08:09
Phil
storytelling.

00:02:08:09 - 00:02:09:05
Phil
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:02:09:10 - 00:02:12:28
Kyle
I think you were telling a story with Kayla of, like, there it is. Just total shenanigans,

00:02:12:28 - 00:02:14:07
Phil
Yeah.

00:02:14:09 - 00:02:14:22
Phil
And at

00:02:14:22 - 00:02:20:27
Kyle
the end of the story, you're like, it's like the best day of climbing I ever had. So, like, talk to me about shenanigans

00:02:20:29 - 00:02:21:14
Phil
Oh, man.

00:02:21:18 - 00:02:22:06
Kyle
to you

00:02:22:13 - 00:02:22:26
Phil
Yeah.

00:02:23:00 - 00:02:24:06
Kyle
their role in climbing for you.

00:02:24:13 - 00:02:37:25
Phil
That's good. Yeah, that's a good question. I'll have to let me think about that one. But I think like, yeah, I think like a lot of times with climbing you can kind of like, you know, envision the day and you have everything there and everything goes according to plan. And those are great days too, because you just, like, crush everything and like, okay, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do this.

00:02:38:01 - 00:02:58:20
Phil
But I think, like, what makes the best memories is when you like, things go wrong and you have to, like, figure things out, and you're, like, having fun and laughing about it, and, like, you're able to adapt to that situation because those are the stories. There's actually like, one time we climb this climb called saucer, and I went up the second last pitch and it was just like a shower, like it was like wet and soaked.

00:02:58:20 - 00:03:15:09
Phil
And then I got to the belay and I'm just, like, shivering. Like I'm like, drenched, like fully drenched. And they came up and they were like, oh, man. Like, should we, should we bail like you? Like we're all just like soaking wet. And it's only like minus five. Like it's like pretty warm out at the time. But, you know, there's one last pitch.

00:03:15:12 - 00:03:30:23
Phil
And, Kaylee had never done sorcerer, and I was with Arthur. Arthur as well as well. He had never done sorcerer. And the final pitch is like the money pitch. It's like, you know, this steep with five plus or five and, you know, it's like 60m, like a really good pitch and, and so.

00:03:30:29 - 00:03:31:14
Phil
And.

00:03:31:21 - 00:03:51:20
Phil
And they're like, I don't know, like, should we bail should we not? And I'm like puffing on. It's just like drenched with like slushy snow. There's like a shower over me. And I was like I said, guys, I was like, we could bail. But like, you know, let's just if we push through, this is going to be such a cool memory and we're going to like, forget all the like the shit, like we're going to forget the hypothermia.

00:03:51:20 - 00:04:07:15
Phil
We're like, remember, like the fun parts of this and that. We, like pushed through it. Even yesterday we could talk about yesterday's climb after this, but yeah, they were like, okay, let's do it. So I like and there's a video I could find, but I just like quest it off and there's like one video I have like my hood up and it's just you can hear it's like.

00:04:07:18 - 00:04:10:19
Phil
Like the rain is just like coming down on.

00:04:10:19 - 00:04:14:17
Phil
My face and like, on my. And I'm like, threw like hammer and my picks.

00:04:14:17 - 00:04:16:17
Phil
Into just slush. It's just like you can hear.

00:04:16:17 - 00:04:16:25
Phil
It's like.

00:04:16:25 - 00:04:20:22
Phil
Slopping because it and and they're.

00:04:20:22 - 00:04:21:05
Phil
Just like.

00:04:21:05 - 00:04:21:21
Phil
The video.

00:04:21:21 - 00:04:22:25
Phil
Is just like, oh my.

00:04:22:25 - 00:04:24:16
Phil
God what is that?

00:04:24:18 - 00:04:39:24
Phil
And then I pulled over onto like the main face and then all of a sudden, like, it wasn't wet there, but it was, it was like dry. But then it was like windy. And I got like hypothermia as I'm like going up, I got the bathys in like both hands and I'm like, oh my God, I don't even know if I could make it to the top.

00:04:40:02 - 00:04:59:05
Phil
And so like in that moment, obviously you're like, wow, this is like a terrible climb. But then once you're like finished it, you're like, that was it. I'm glad we pushed through. That was amazing. And that's like a funny memory now that you have. So I think like, yeah, you can have like great memories when you have those moments where you push through like a difficult situation and then you look back and it's like, yeah, that was a bit of shenanigans.

00:04:59:05 - 00:04:59:15
Phil
But it was.

00:04:59:15 - 00:05:00:04
Phil
Great.

00:05:00:07 - 00:05:04:11
Phil
Like even yesterday, man, that was that was like shenanigans. But we pushed through and it was awesome.

00:05:04:14 - 00:05:04:23
Kyle
sure.

00:05:04:23 - 00:05:09:18
Kyle
I think there's like two kind of shenanigans. There's ones that you can't prepare for.

00:05:09:21 - 00:05:11:08
Kyle
that's like nature, like the wind,

00:05:11:10 - 00:05:11:26
Phil
Yeah. That

00:05:12:00 - 00:05:13:17
Kyle
situation where it's like water.

00:05:13:19 - 00:05:18:22
Kyle
And then there's the shenanigans where like, you kind of put yourself in that situation.

00:05:18:25 - 00:05:20:09
Phil
Yeah. Okay.

00:05:20:11 - 00:05:26:03
Kyle
And so I want to maybe we can like, bifurcate those two things and like tell some stories of each one.

00:05:26:03 - 00:05:26:16
Phil
okay.

00:05:26:18 - 00:05:29:13
Kyle
So like let's do nature first or just like uncontrollable shenanigans.

00:05:29:13 - 00:05:30:05
Phil
Okay.

00:05:30:07 - 00:05:37:19
Kyle
like yesterday was a great example. Like we were up on Cloud Tower, you know, we had like a little bit of a windy forecast, but it didn't look like it was going to be crazy.

00:05:37:19 - 00:05:38:06
Phil
that

00:05:38:09 - 00:05:38:20
Kyle
from the south

00:05:38:22 - 00:05:39:05
Phil
Yeah.

00:05:39:12 - 00:05:43:10
Kyle
which is like on the other side of Rainbow Wall. So I was like, dude, we're good.

00:05:43:13 - 00:05:44:25
Phil
Yeah. Yeah.

00:05:44:27 - 00:05:47:07
Kyle
and we're going to be protected. It's going to be sick

00:05:47:10 - 00:05:52:18
Kyle
and like, yeah, we like rolling to Juniper Canyon and there's no one there. We're like, what the fuck? Why is no one here, dude,

00:05:52:20 - 00:05:54:12
Phil
Yeah. And,

00:05:54:14 - 00:06:00:06
Kyle
yeah, we get on Cloud Tower and right after the first pitch, I'm like, standing on the top of that land and it's like fucking

00:06:00:10 - 00:06:02:06
Phil
Yeah, yeah.

00:06:02:09 - 00:06:03:07
Kyle
you're like, are you good up there?

00:06:03:07 - 00:06:03:16
Kyle
I'm.

00:06:03:19 - 00:06:05:10
Phil
Oh and

00:06:05:13 - 00:06:10:14
Kyle
yeah, that whole pitch two and like into pitch three, it was just a fucking sulfur fest, bro.

00:06:10:16 - 00:06:22:28
Phil
do the best is like so so yeah you did you did P1 and then I did P2. And then P2 I think was like P1 and P2 the place for it where like not protected. And they were getting hammered by the wind. And so P3 is like the 12 crux pitch.

00:06:23:00 - 00:06:29:22
Phil
And the poor guy is like he's up there like fighting for his life, like putting in finicky.

00:06:29:22 - 00:06:31:19
Phil
Gear on this, like 0.1 little finger.

00:06:31:19 - 00:06:36:22
Phil
Crack and I'm down at the bottom, just like getting hammered by the wind.

00:06:36:22 - 00:06:44:29
Phil
All my hoods are up and all I brought was like a light, little like wind jacket. So I was not prepared for this. And then Kyle's up there, just like fighting for his life. And I'm, like.

00:06:44:29 - 00:06:57:01
Phil
Shivering down below. But I'm just like, oh God, oh, God. Like hitting myself like, you got this, Phillip. Oh, God. I it kind of like when you shut the fuck up down there.

00:06:57:04 - 00:07:00:22
Kyle
it was funny. Like, the higher I got up into the crux pitch, like the noises were getting

00:07:00:25 - 00:07:02:17
Phil
Yeah. From me. Yeah.

00:07:02:19 - 00:07:03:03
Phil
I

00:07:03:06 - 00:07:06:14
Kyle
more guttural, and I was like, dude, what the

00:07:06:16 - 00:07:06:20
Phil
yeah.

00:07:06:20 - 00:07:09:27
Kyle
like, I was fine with that at first, and then I was definitely getting distracting. At a

00:07:10:00 - 00:07:11:10
Phil
Yeah, yeah. What the

00:07:11:14 - 00:07:12:17
Kyle
fuck is going on down there?

00:07:12:17 - 00:07:13:26
Kyle
You're

00:07:13:28 - 00:07:15:00
Phil
Yeah.

00:07:15:02 - 00:07:20:09
Phil
Dude, it was taking everything that I had. I was that was cold, man. I find that, like,

00:07:20:12 - 00:07:21:11
Phil
with rock climbing,

00:07:21:14 - 00:07:24:04
Phil
I can get colder rock climbing than I can ice climbing.

00:07:24:08 - 00:07:26:24
Kyle
because you are already, like, prepared for the

00:07:26:28 - 00:07:33:08
Phil
I'm exactly like when you go ice climbing, you're you're like, ready for it. You're prepared. You're like, okay, it's like you check the weather. It's like.

00:07:33:08 - 00:07:33:28
Kyle
gloves, you've got

00:07:34:01 - 00:07:35:03
Phil
You got gloves, it's K.

00:07:35:05 - 00:07:52:06
Phil
Minus ten. Like, I know the climb. That actually that's a lie. I've definitely gotten colder on ice climbs, but I think I've been better at preparing for them since I got, like, frostbite the first time. Yeah. Now that, like, you have to prepare for it. You can't. Just like wing in ice climb the, I don't know, just pack like a century.

00:07:52:06 - 00:07:52:16
Phil
I guess.

00:07:52:21 - 00:07:53:18
Phil
Like, you know.

00:07:53:21 - 00:08:05:17
Phil
You have to like, okay, where am I going? What aspect is it? What's the what's the what exactly? You really need to do a lot of research into, like, what the weather is on an ice climbing day versus rock climbing is just like, oh, I don't know. It's like sunny and beautiful.

00:08:05:17 - 00:08:11:25
Phil
It's like, yeah, let's just throw a sun shirt in there and a little windbreaker and we're good to go. And then you're like, fuck, it's fucking cold.

00:08:11:25 - 00:08:12:07
Kyle
yeah.

00:08:12:07 - 00:08:21:22
Phil
So I feel you can get messed up on on rock climbs because you're in the shade and then it gets windy and it's cold and you have, like, nothing on you. So yeah, you use like, so ill prepared for it.

00:08:21:22 - 00:08:25:05
Kyle
And if you're like climbing harder routes where like you might be at the belay longer.

00:08:25:07 - 00:08:26:05
Phil
Yeah, yeah.

00:08:26:06 - 00:08:42:28
Phil
You're not like moving very quickly. That's another thing with ice as well as like depending on the route you can move super fast and you can stay warm as well. Like you're doing like a lot of hiking. You're doing a lot of like maybe low angle stuff where you're just like constantly moving unless you're doing like super hard, like short, you know, ice, you can stay relatively.

00:08:42:28 - 00:08:43:26
Phil
Warm as you're moving,

00:08:43:29 - 00:08:44:23
Kyle
for sure.

00:08:44:25 - 00:08:48:08
Kyle
Yeah. What? Give me another story of where, like,

00:08:48:08 - 00:08:49:04
Phil
which kind of shenanigans

00:08:49:04 - 00:08:50:14
Kyle
uncontrolled shenanigans,

00:08:50:14 - 00:08:51:13
Phil
for the weather?

00:08:51:16 - 00:08:56:04
Kyle
it could be anything. I think things that are out of your control, the things you like. You didn't do it to yourself.

00:08:56:04 - 00:08:56:07
Phil
I.

00:08:56:07 - 00:09:11:15
Phil
Didn't do, too. My eyes. Okay, let me let me, I mean, this is just like. I don't know if this is shenanigans. The only story that came to mind. And I can think on this. I'll think we'll get some better stories. I'll think of this, And this could I maybe I told this on another podcast. Maybe I didn't, but this is like going into partners.

00:09:11:15 - 00:09:25:28
Phil
There was one time where I went on a climb and we, like, agreed to go do this climb with this one guy. And I think it was maybe my second time climbing with him. And then like, we're walking up the approach and like the energy was like, I think I told you, I maybe I said it on another party, but the energy was like so bad.

00:09:25:28 - 00:09:26:24
Phil
As we're walking up

00:09:26:25 - 00:09:27:14
Kyle
Between the partnership.

00:09:27:14 - 00:09:40:27
Phil
between, yeah, the two of us are like, we're doing this hike up. We're doing this approach to get to the base of this climb. And then, like, I think it was maybe after like an hour and a half of just like listening to him, like so negative. And the energy was bad. I literally was like, hey man, I'm not.

00:09:40:27 - 00:09:41:22
Phil
If I can climb with you at.

00:09:41:22 - 00:09:43:14
Phil
All, like, I'm down.

00:09:43:17 - 00:09:48:13
Phil
And I just walked off and I walked down. I don't know if that's shenanigans, but that's definitely it

00:09:48:15 - 00:09:49:00
Kyle
though.

00:09:49:03 - 00:09:49:14
Phil
Yeah.

00:09:49:14 - 00:09:51:10
Kyle
you like we're an hour and a half

00:09:51:10 - 00:09:52:12
Phil
an hour and half into the approach.

00:09:52:12 - 00:09:53:29
Kyle
that bad where you're like, we're not even climbing

00:09:53:29 - 00:10:07:13
Phil
Yeah, we're at it. I think I told another story where I climbed with this. I was going to climb with this girl in Squamish. I think I did tell this story before, but I'll say it again, where we were going to do this one climb, and we talked on Instagram a whole bunch. And like, she seem, you know, like a nice girl or whatever.

00:10:07:13 - 00:10:29:11
Phil
And I'm like, super friendly on, on, like, Instagram. But someone messaged me like, hey, we should get an account. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just like for sure. You know, I've just got like nonchalantly and she's like, oh, I'll drive down. And I'm like, oh, sweet. So then she drove down from Washington, got there, and then the energy was like immediately, as soon as I met her in person, I could like tell it was just like, she's really negative, like a dark energy, you know, kind of like just a negative kind of, you know, dark energy.

00:10:29:17 - 00:10:33:13
Phil
And like, I knew right away I was like, oh my God, Philip, what have I got?

00:10:33:15 - 00:10:36:02
Phil
You know, did you ever get yourself in those situations?

00:10:36:02 - 00:10:43:19
Phil
Are you like, agreed to do a partner and then like, like, oh my God, I know. Oh okay. Yeah. Count yourself lucky.

00:10:43:24 - 00:10:48:10
Kyle
I have ever climbed with someone brand new, I usually pick an objective where it's like super

00:10:48:14 - 00:10:49:16
Phil
Oh, I see, that's

00:10:49:16 - 00:10:50:04
Kyle
like I'll just

00:10:50:04 - 00:10:50:14
Phil
that's what.

00:10:50:14 - 00:10:51:07
Phil
I should do

00:10:51:13 - 00:11:01:17
Kyle
times I've done brand new partners. It's like I'm just popping around doing track climbs in J tree. So it's like dragging your minimal approach. Like, if I needed to run away, I could really

00:11:01:19 - 00:11:04:08
Phil
Yeah. That's the smarter way to do it.

00:11:04:08 - 00:11:07:17
Phil
But nobody ever that I was smart. So we.

00:11:07:17 - 00:11:09:25
Phil
Yeah, I know I'm an idiot, dude. I do dumb.

00:11:09:25 - 00:11:11:10
Phil
Things all the time.

00:11:11:13 - 00:11:12:09
Phil
Like.

00:11:12:11 - 00:11:15:13
Phil
And I don't learn from my mistakes that way.

00:11:15:15 - 00:11:27:24
Phil
I hopefully I'm getting better. But we the next day we like started out, we started this hike and we were going to do this one. Like I can't remember what the area is called, but it's like past the gondola. You can take the gondola up, which like cuts some time out, but it's like 60 bucks or 80 bucks for the gondola.

00:11:27:24 - 00:11:51:10
Phil
So I was like, let's just walk up and let's do it. So we walked up. I think we were like probably 3.5 hours into this, like mega approach. And we're like, right now at the base of like, okay, we can see the mountain. We just got to like walk another maybe like 45 minutes and we're there. And that was another one where I literally just saw it and I was like, I cannot even fathom, like hanging out with this girl for a minute longer.

00:11:51:12 - 00:12:00:11
Phil
And I was like, I do not want to be tied into a rope with her. I don't want her to blame me. I don't want to spending more time with her. And I literally think she walked around the corner. I was like, we're not climbing today.

00:12:00:12 - 00:12:02:20
Phil
No, like we're not it.

00:12:02:23 - 00:12:06:10
Phil
Yeah. It was dude. It was so awkward. It was.

00:12:06:10 - 00:12:08:12
Phil
So awkward. She was like.

00:12:08:13 - 00:12:20:07
Phil
You're always like, ask wisely, what's going on? Why? And I was like. And I was like, well, like, I don't know how to put this, but like, it's kind of like awkward and like or not awkward, but like, you just have, like a really, like, negative energy and like, I just don't want to be around you. Yeah. I don't want to.

00:12:20:07 - 00:12:34:19
Phil
I don't want to tie in with rope with you. Right. Like sorry. And then we like, walk down. And she was like, we're kind of like talking like, you know, that kind of like weird. Awkward. Like, you have to make a conversation as you're going down. We're like, trying to do that. And then we get to the gondola.

00:12:34:26 - 00:12:37:13
Phil
And I was so adamant on the way up, I was like.

00:12:37:13 - 00:12:43:02
Phil
We're not paying for the gondola. We're fucking alpinist, and we're gonna walk up and I'm not paying for that shit. We're gonna like, hike up.

00:12:43:07 - 00:12:44:13
Phil
And then on the way down, I was like.

00:12:44:15 - 00:12:49:00
Phil
Fuck that! We're paying for the gondola to get down and like, I'll pay for yours. I don't even.

00:12:49:00 - 00:12:54:29
Phil
Care. So I like, paid for her gondola. And it's cheaper on the way down, but, like, I don't even care. I need to get down as fast as possible.

00:12:55:01 - 00:12:56:06
Phil
And then we got down,

00:12:56:09 - 00:13:02:24
Phil
got back to, like, the, the, the campground got into. And then we got there and like some guy that we had, like, talked to the night before.

00:13:02:24 - 00:13:05:12
Phil
He's like, oh, he's like, hey, how did things go?

00:13:05:12 - 00:13:08:29
Phil
You guys are back early. She's like, I don't know, talk to him.

00:13:09:02 - 00:13:12:17
Phil
And I was like, yeah, I don't know. I just wasn't feeling the energy.

00:13:12:17 - 00:13:19:23
Phil
And I like grabbed all my shit. I grabbed my rope. I just like open my Jeep. At the time, I was like, open the jeep, threw everything in, got in the Jeep, I was.

00:13:19:24 - 00:13:22:04
Phil
Closed all the lights.

00:13:22:07 - 00:13:24:09
Phil
And then I've never spoken to again.

00:13:24:12 - 00:13:48:16
Kyle
That's crazy. I would imagine I would imagine the it's a skillset to be able to, to make that definitive decision of, I mean, you you're invested just as much as she is and like your climbing goals are like at stake. Like, was it that bad or like, have you been like, you've done this enough or you just know and you've done it before.

00:13:48:16 - 00:13:49:13
Kyle
So like, you're like,

00:13:49:13 - 00:13:50:14
Phil
yeah.

00:13:50:16 - 00:13:52:29
Phil
I think I just have like, I think I have a.

00:13:52:29 - 00:14:14:01
Phil
Really good job at, like setting boundaries and being like transparent with how I'm feeling and like and confrontation as well. I worked a lot on confrontation, like especially, you know, over in my 20s into my 30s. I used to be like very non-confrontational and just like go with the flow, even if it's a shitty situation, like, don't rock the boat, just like do whatever, like whatever, just do it.

00:14:14:01 - 00:14:33:14
Phil
Do it, you know, don't rock the boat, don't anger people, don't like, you know, do that. And and then obviously in that process, like two things happened. Number one is, you like, degrade yourself because the more that you don't say what you want to say and the more that you like, have something that's like in you, whether in your heart or whatever.

00:14:33:14 - 00:14:48:09
Phil
And you like you want to say it and you don't say it, then you like lose trust and confidence in yourself. Right? And then the second thing is you're just in a shitty situation. So the more that you like continue to do that, the more like timid you get, the more you don't trust yourself, the more you don't have respect for yourself and the less better of a person.

00:14:48:09 - 00:15:04:29
Phil
I guess you can say like less, yeah, less, better a person you become. So I worked a lot on that in my 20s. And now, like in my 30s, I feel like I've just, like brought that into all areas of my life. And I just try. And even if it was like, maybe not the worst situation, like, yeah, I probably could like push through and like had a good day and been like, yeah, whatever.

00:15:04:29 - 00:15:19:17
Phil
It's fine. I think for me that's just like one of my non-negotiables in life now is like, if I'm in a bad situation or if there's something that I want to say or if there's some type of confrontation that I need to do, I don't just let it, like, fester and be like, oh no, it's fine. I'll just like get through this situation.

00:15:19:17 - 00:15:35:28
Phil
They don't have to say anything because then not only do I have to be in that situation, which I'm sure I could push through that situation, but then for me, the biggest thing is like I lose trust in myself, right? Like I lose the respect for myself. And it's like, because you always have that like replay in your mind after like, man, I should have said that thing, you know what I mean?

00:15:35:28 - 00:15:50:22
Phil
Like, I was at that party and that guy said something disrespectful to me and I didn't say anything. Right. And then you, like, lose that respect for yourself and you just, like, go with this situation and like, little by little, that'll that'll, chip away at your confidence, you know, your ego and not necessarily ego, but your confidence and your self-respect.

00:15:50:22 - 00:16:03:20
Phil
So now is just like a non-negotiable, not only in climbing, but in all areas of my life. So even though I probably could have pushed through, it's just like for me, it's like, no, I have to say something because it means more than just a climbing day. It means like retaining my self-respect.

00:16:03:22 - 00:16:05:14
Phil
Yeah, and

00:16:05:16 - 00:16:09:15
Kyle
brings to like a makes me think about.

00:16:09:17 - 00:16:30:15
Kyle
We have like these internal dialogs and I feel like there's like the heart dialog and the mind dialog and like I think, the way I've heard it being talked about is like, this is I and this is you. And so when you talk to yourself like there's like you just said, like you lose respect for yourself, like, not myself, I lose track for myself.

00:16:30:17 - 00:16:44:02
Kyle
You know, it's like a weird way to use words that way. But, yeah, I think that, like, listening to that internal dialog and being able to actually, like, cognitively take action and, and, I think, well put, like, respect yourself in that way.

00:16:44:02 - 00:16:45:15
Phil
Yeah. There's so much. Yeah,

00:16:45:22 - 00:16:52:07
Kyle
yeah, I mean, I've had multiple situations. I'd say a lot of it is more around, I guess it is that people to people relationships disrespect

00:16:52:09 - 00:16:53:00
Phil
like, yeah.

00:16:53:03 - 00:16:55:05
Kyle
wholly in setting boundaries.

00:16:55:08 - 00:16:59:23
Kyle
Like if you ignore it, it doesn't go away like that. That just sits there for a while.

00:16:59:26 - 00:17:00:22
Phil
Yeah. And then,

00:17:00:23 - 00:17:07:23
Kyle
you know, at a certain point, like at least for me, I'll, I've had bad habits of like pushing it down, pushing it down and then just like

00:17:07:26 - 00:17:09:20
Phil
And then it just. Yeah, just then it just bubbles.

00:17:09:20 - 00:17:10:00
Phil
Up and.

00:17:10:07 - 00:17:11:10
Kyle
volcano, you know.

00:17:11:13 - 00:17:12:01
Phil
explode. Yeah.

00:17:12:03 - 00:17:13:16
Kyle
then it makes the whole situation even worse.

00:17:13:16 - 00:17:19:20
Kyle
It it's like if you just fucking spoke your mind in the first place and just like, clearly communicated and set that boundary, then it

00:17:19:20 - 00:17:20:10
Phil
wouldn't be.

00:17:20:13 - 00:17:26:15
Phil
Which is so much harder said than done. Like it's so easy to just like, you know, be on this podcast. I'm like, oh yeah. Just like stand up for myself.

00:17:26:15 - 00:17:27:10
Phil
All the time.

00:17:27:10 - 00:17:50:12
Phil
But like, no, man, it's like it is like you need to actively and like, at least for me. And maybe some people are better at it than, you know, than others, but at least for me, like I, especially my child, I spent my whole childhood just kind of like taking abuse and not standing up for myself. And I think that's why it's so pedal for me in like my 20s and 30s, and it's still difficult, like it's you need to actively choose it every time.

00:17:50:12 - 00:18:06:18
Phil
And I think we, we spoke about this, just talking about like, fast, like thinking. Right. It takes me a long time to like, like, mentally think about everything and like, think through the how do I feel? How are my emotions, what am I thinking? And then go into that situation. So yeah. So it's like it's it's difficult man.

00:18:06:18 - 00:18:20:22
Phil
It's like it's super difficult. You have to actively like choose and think about doing it. And it's so much easier to just be like, no, it's fine. Like I won't say anything. It's like, it's not a big deal. But but you need to, like, actively do it each and every single time. It's not an easy process.

00:18:20:24 - 00:18:21:24
Phil
And it's funny actually your

00:18:21:26 - 00:18:25:21
Kyle
your story about the, the super long approach to get to the base.

00:18:25:24 - 00:18:30:11
Kyle
Honestly that might actually be the better because you're like your speed dating that person

00:18:30:11 - 00:18:31:09
Phil
Yeah, yeah.

00:18:31:10 - 00:18:31:26
Phil
Kind of

00:18:31:26 - 00:18:35:02
Kyle
half. You're like, all right, we're going to vibe check for an hour and a half. You're like, get to the base now.

00:18:35:03 - 00:18:35:26
Kyle
Don't pass fail.

00:18:36:00 - 00:18:39:29
Phil
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do that that would be.

00:18:40:01 - 00:18:44:24
Phil
If you could just do that and like on every approach and then just be like, no, never mind I'm just gonna. That would be

00:18:44:27 - 00:18:47:17
Kyle
questions in your mind, you're like, right, we're gonna go to this, we're going to check this, we're going to

00:18:47:17 - 00:18:49:14
Phil
Yeah. That would be pretty gnarly if.

00:18:49:14 - 00:18:52:02
Phil
You could just do that.

00:18:52:05 - 00:19:00:05
Phil
If you literally just, like, cut it off after an hour, it'd be like, yeah, I know we agreed for this. You did? It was supposed to be awesome. But never mind. I'm just, like, not feeling you that much.

00:19:00:07 - 00:19:01:24
Phil
Yeah.

00:19:01:27 - 00:19:03:07
Kyle
don't really like your perspective on

00:19:03:07 - 00:19:03:20
Phil
Yeah.

00:19:03:22 - 00:19:04:13
Kyle
think we need to

00:19:04:13 - 00:19:05:07
Phil
Yeah, I think we're.

00:19:05:07 - 00:19:23:08
Phil
Just going to leave now. Do you let me. I'm trying to think some other shenanigans, though, that, we've gotten off track about shenanigans, but that's okay. Some shenanigans that we've that I've been in. I mean, I've had lots of shenanigans on. Yeah. I'm like, amnesia was was an awesome experience. Lotsa. Dude, I'd love to talk about it.

00:19:23:08 - 00:19:23:28
Phil
Yeah, I mean, I

00:19:23:28 - 00:19:28:16
Kyle
have this, I have like, it's really his yam experience and his ice climbing

00:19:28:19 - 00:19:29:07
Phil
Do you want to

00:19:29:07 - 00:19:31:13
Kyle
talk about those things. I guess let's wrap up shenanigans

00:19:31:17 - 00:19:32:09
Phil
Okay. Yeah yeah yeah yeah

00:19:32:09 - 00:19:38:18
Kyle
that. So I think the other the other example of shenanigans is like where we kind of get ourselves into it.

00:19:38:20 - 00:19:44:24
Kyle
For whatever reason. I think the one thing that made me think this was your story of, Polar Circus.

00:19:44:26 - 00:19:45:14
Phil
Yeah.

00:19:45:16 - 00:19:47:06
Phil
Oh, it was just like recently.

00:19:47:08 - 00:19:49:16
Phil
Oh, this.

00:19:49:16 - 00:19:58:01
Kyle
gear. You had everything you needed to make it, like a non shenanigan ascent, but you, like, chose to put yourself in that situation in a way.

00:19:58:04 - 00:19:59:03
Kyle
So like

00:19:59:03 - 00:20:01:06
Phil
And I can talk. I could talk about that. Yeah. Tell the.

00:20:01:13 - 00:20:19:13
Kyle
But I guess like what I'm trying to dig get here is like, maybe this is like a personal question for you or just climbing in general, but like, do you see, sometimes you, like, subconsciously do things like that, take less gear or make certain decisions to like up the ante almost or like to,

00:20:19:13 - 00:20:19:22
Phil
no.

00:20:19:22 - 00:20:21:07
Phil
I think I'm just an idiot.

00:20:21:10 - 00:20:23:09
Phil
I think I'm just an idiot.

00:20:23:12 - 00:20:24:05
Kyle
in a way.

00:20:24:08 - 00:20:39:02
Phil
Yeah. Because basically. Yeah. When up the pencil, which is like six and then I just like, I only brought eight screws. I was there with Kaylee. We had one, half rope that we had, and then I just double it up, so the only 35m. And I was like, oh, yeah, it's probably fine. Yeah. So it's not 35m.

00:20:39:02 - 00:20:53:23
Phil
It's like 40m. And then like I go up the steep part and then I had to put a few screws in for the first. I dropped one screw. So I'm down to like seven. It ended up being 40m. And then like I think I was like maybe ten meters from the top out or maybe like 5 or 10.

00:20:54:00 - 00:21:03:18
Phil
And Kate was like, that's me. And like the beginning of the climb was like this, like overhanging, like mushrooms and petals and it's like showering down.

00:21:03:20 - 00:21:04:29
Phil
And I was like, okay, well.

00:21:04:29 - 00:21:25:15
Phil
I have like one screw left. And I thought there was like a bolted anchor above, like thought where there was chains. I'd use them trap before. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to go a couple more meters and I'll put my last screw in. And then it's just, it's just around the corner. And like poor Kaylee, she has like the rest of the screws, she has the drawers, she has the backpack with the other rope because we brought two half ropes.

00:21:25:15 - 00:21:39:06
Phil
But we were just like swimming up to that point. And so we had this like one half rope that we doubled in half for 35m. And so she's got like a heavy pack. She's like at the beginning I have like one screw in and then I like one screw in like where I am. Right. It's like the last screw.

00:21:39:09 - 00:21:47:27
Phil
And then I start climbing. I'm like, okay, I just have to pull over and it's like five meters. And she's like, still climbing through, like the six, like crushed section. And

00:21:47:27 - 00:21:48:21
Kyle
timeliness at this

00:21:48:25 - 00:21:57:01
Phil
yeah, we're finally at this point I have no screws left. Right. Which is I usually never put myself in those situations. I usually like always keep actually, no.

00:21:57:01 - 00:21:57:26
Phil
I have a funny story. I'll tell you this.

00:21:57:26 - 00:22:03:09
Phil
After I do this. Actually, this is another shenanigans story that I'll tell you.

00:22:03:11 - 00:22:16:14
Phil
Anyways, so then I like pulled over onto the face and there's no bolts and I'm just like, I'm like, what the fuck? Where the fucking bolt? I'm like, looking around. I'm like, oh my God, I have no screws. I there's no bolts. I have nothing.

00:22:16:14 - 00:22:17:19
Phil
To make an anchor.

00:22:17:26 - 00:22:33:07
Phil
And then I like, look on the rock. And the bolts had been just like chopped. So like an avi had come down and well, I think they like, just just mangled them. They're just like like an avi came down and like a rock, like, hit the bolts and

00:22:33:11 - 00:22:36:13
Kyle
wow. I thought when you said chopped, I thought, like, someone came

00:22:36:14 - 00:22:37:12
Phil
Well, someone did.

00:22:37:13 - 00:22:58:20
Phil
Did chop them like, like after that happened, but they were mangled. It was like band one was like, hanging down. So they were just like, not safe to use anymore. Luckily another like five meters up there's a V thread and and I was like, okay, I just need to make it snappy thread. And then at least like I can clip the V thread and then I'll back it up with the tool.

00:22:58:25 - 00:23:00:27
Phil
But now like Hayley's still in like the.

00:23:01:04 - 00:23:04:17
Phil
White six like section and I'm like.

00:23:04:17 - 00:23:06:13
Phil
I'm so sorry. I'm like.

00:23:06:15 - 00:23:08:05
Phil
You just keep going. We're almost.

00:23:08:05 - 00:23:17:23
Phil
There. And I'm like, pulling the rope up. And now I'm like, probably like 5 or 10m below my last piece. And she's like cycling through. I'm like, oh my God, I'm such an idiot. Like, I'm such.

00:23:17:29 - 00:23:19:06
Phil
An idiot, dude.

00:23:19:12 - 00:23:21:10
Kyle
What was the reasoning for leaving the screws behind?

00:23:21:15 - 00:23:21:28
Phil
Because I'm an.

00:23:21:28 - 00:23:22:15
Phil
Idiot, bro.

00:23:22:15 - 00:23:24:04
Phil
Like, I like literally

00:23:24:04 - 00:23:24:28
Kyle
there was no cognitive

00:23:25:02 - 00:23:25:27
Phil
it was just like.

00:23:26:04 - 00:23:29:28
Phil
I don't know, just in my head. Let me think. Yeah, that's a good question.

00:23:30:00 - 00:23:31:13
Phil
She she's like, oh, do you want.

00:23:31:13 - 00:23:47:26
Phil
Like, any screws? And I just like, looked at it and like I thought the bolts were there. That's like that's I guess like in my head because I was like oh eight screws for like 35m is fine. Like, that's more than enough for me, right. So I guess like that part would have been fine and I would have had I know I had that one, I dropped one screw.

00:23:47:26 - 00:23:56:20
Phil
So I'm down one screw, one screw. Right. And then, I did use one extra screw for the traverse because I wanted to protect it for Kaylie.

00:23:56:20 - 00:23:58:04
Phil
So actually, my math was.

00:23:58:04 - 00:24:06:04
Phil
Kind of dead on, if you think about it. Right. Because I would have had two screws left over if I wouldn't have messed.

00:24:06:07 - 00:24:09:05
Phil
I had no room for error. I had the perfect amount.

00:24:09:07 - 00:24:14:15
Phil
And. Oh, this is funny actually, because yesterday I dropped like four. If I could Gamze and I also dropped screws, so maybe it is.

00:24:14:15 - 00:24:16:13
Phil
Me.

00:24:16:13 - 00:24:18:07
Kyle
The odds are stacking up against here. The evidence is

00:24:18:07 - 00:24:18:26
Phil
Yeah.

00:24:18:29 - 00:24:31:28
Phil
But anyways, I went to the V thread and sunk my tools in back the V thread up with the tools and I brought Kaylee up and I was like, I am so sorry. I'll never do that again. I am such an idiot.

00:24:31:28 - 00:24:33:01
Phil
Like you were.

00:24:33:01 - 00:24:52:10
Phil
Doing that. I think I just get like, I know, I just get like too excited or something like that. I just get like super sad. I'm like, oh yeah, let's get after it. The other story that I just thought about me and my buddy went into the ghost and this was on Christmas Day, and we wanted to go into this one canyon, do like a whole bunch of just, like, single pitch, you know, like ice climbs.

00:24:52:10 - 00:25:09:16
Phil
There's one max climb, right? And on the way there, we saw another truck coming out. And what happened? That. Oh, dude, we went all the way to thing the first we like, went to go. And then I realized my screws. I left them on my bed, the whole rack of screws. And so like we're done, right? Like we're done for the day.

00:25:09:16 - 00:25:16:26
Phil
That's it. And I think I had like, I brought like eight screws or something like that cause they're all just like short, right? And I was like, oh, I was like, well, just take mine.

00:25:16:26 - 00:25:20:22
Phil
Like, I don't even need them. It's fine. You have these and I'll get you. Sure. Oh yeah. Yeah is.

00:25:20:22 - 00:25:37:01
Phil
Fine. I'll just like, oh yeah, I think one screw I take one screw is fine. Right. And then I took one screw and, same like shenanigans. And then we went into this, like, canyon. So they went to a different area. I just got their number and I was like, yeah, just like meet up with you, like another day and grab everything from you.

00:25:37:03 - 00:25:51:16
Phil
And then they didn't even end up climbing. Actually. They like tried to do one, I guess, like they told me after that like tried to do the one pitch, but they didn't get that far and then they bailed. So but whatever it was, you know, good, good intentions. But anyways, I get this mixed plan, which is like, whatever, I'm the seven, five or whatever.

00:25:51:23 - 00:26:09:06
Phil
And so I, like get in, do the mix action, go to the ice. And then the plan was like, because there was a long run out between the last bolt and the ice. So the plan was I was gonna like put a screw kind of high up, like, you know, behind the dagger. So it was good clip that.

00:26:09:06 - 00:26:22:03
Phil
And then I was like, oh, I'm going to pull on to the ice and then I'm going to grab this screw. So I have it, you know, with me. And then of course I like pull on to the dagger and I'm like, kind of, you know, in it now and I'm like pulling over. And then next thing I know I like look below and I'm like.

00:26:22:04 - 00:26:26:11
Phil
Oh, goddamnit, this is like way below me.

00:26:26:14 - 00:26:41:17
Phil
And I'm like, oh, that's so far. I'm like, it's probably fine. I'll just like solo it to the top. It's fine. And then I like start getting into it and like, no one had really climbed it this year because like, it usually forms of the pure ice root. And then, it didn't form as a pure ice throughout this year.

00:26:41:17 - 00:26:53:25
Phil
It didn't go to the bottom. So it was only the mixed action, I guess. Not that many people had done the make section, so it was like fresh ice and it was like, you know, steep. And I'm like, I get to like the halfway point. And then I like keep going. I'm like, oh my God, Phillip, you're again like.

00:26:54:02 - 00:26:56:18
Phil
Why do you put yourself in these situations?

00:26:56:21 - 00:27:05:00
Phil
Like, I have no screw, I have no way of bailing. And now I'm at the point where, like, if I fell, I would just hit the ground because I'm like, high enough up. So now I'm just like, oh, God damn it, Phillip.

00:27:05:00 - 00:27:06:29
Phil
You're touching it yet.

00:27:07:01 - 00:27:09:23
Phil
But I like, like obviously, you know, you know, story is kind of spoiled.

00:27:09:23 - 00:27:12:06
Phil
Obviously I got to the top.

00:27:12:09 - 00:27:31:09
Phil
And made it, but, yeah, I don't know why I put myself in those situations. I think I'm just like, I don't know why I think I maybe I do enjoy maybe there's like a part of me that, like, enjoys the challenge of, like, you know, having some shenanigans and, and.

00:27:31:11 - 00:27:32:27
Phil
Yeah, maybe there's something there, I don't.

00:27:32:27 - 00:27:33:11
Phil
Know.

00:27:33:11 - 00:27:34:11
Phil
I'll talk to my therapist.

00:27:34:18 - 00:27:36:09
Phil
And,

00:27:36:12 - 00:27:39:06
Kyle
Have you heard of the term survivorship bias?

00:27:39:09 - 00:27:41:16
Phil
No. Well, yeah, but no, I don't know. I mean, so.

00:27:41:22 - 00:27:54:00
Kyle
so it's kind of what we talked about already, or, like, I went through an accident. I have, like, real life evidence of what happens when you misjudge a situation. Yeah, it seems like you don't.

00:27:54:02 - 00:27:55:15
Phil
Okay.

00:27:55:15 - 00:27:56:06
Phil
If you haven't

00:27:56:06 - 00:27:57:27
Kyle
had, like, an injury. That's really

00:27:58:00 - 00:27:59:07
Phil
Oh, you

00:27:59:07 - 00:28:00:14
Kyle
haven't had, like,

00:28:00:16 - 00:28:01:06
Phil
Yeah, I've

00:28:01:06 - 00:28:22:26
Kyle
had, like, real life physical pain consequence for potentially giving yourself no room for error. Right. And so like, the reason why I came across this term was because, I interviewed, like an elder climber in his 70s, and he, like, just doesn't wear helmets.

00:28:22:28 - 00:28:23:29
Phil
Oh, like what.

00:28:23:29 - 00:28:24:11
Phil
The

00:28:24:13 - 00:28:25:25
Phil
at all. Okay.

00:28:25:28 - 00:28:29:08
Kyle
know, and I, on the podcast, I called him out. I didn't call him out. I just was,

00:28:29:09 - 00:28:30:21
Phil
Like, you're like, well, that's kind of

00:28:30:23 - 00:28:33:09
Kyle
I didn't say that. I just said, justify that for me.

00:28:33:11 - 00:28:35:18
Phil
Okay. Oh, wow. That's a very tactful.

00:28:35:18 - 00:28:37:08
Phil
Way to put that.

00:28:37:11 - 00:28:43:09
Kyle
and, his immediate response was, well, I can see better.

00:28:43:11 - 00:28:44:18
Phil
that way.

00:28:44:21 - 00:29:01:29
Kyle
perspective is just like he just hasn't worn it. He doesn't like the way it's not fits on his head because he's been climbing with that one for fucking in 50 years. And he has survivorship bias because he hasn't had anything happen where that proved that he would need one.

00:29:02:01 - 00:29:07:12
Kyle
But the sad the crazy thing about helmets is that,

00:29:07:14 - 00:29:10:23
Kyle
That's what we're talking about. Lessons that you can't survive from.

00:29:10:26 - 00:29:12:13
Kyle
that's one that you don't survive

00:29:12:16 - 00:29:24:27
Kyle
The lesson that you needed a helmet is one you probably won't survive from. And so I trying to like link this back to this whole point of survivorship bias. Like, how do you feel about that term in reference to your own life?

00:29:24:27 - 00:29:27:22
Kyle
And like, yeah.

00:29:27:24 - 00:29:40:11
Phil
Yeah. That's that's a really good question. I yeah. I mean, even like yesterday, you see that I'm like very comfortable, like falling, whipping on gear.

00:29:40:14 - 00:30:03:11
Phil
You know, running things out. I think I have, like, a pretty high risk tolerance in that regard. And I think it is because, like, yeah, nothing bad has ever happened to me. Like, I've just had, like, a series of, like, reinforcements of, like, good things happen in, you know, obviously, besides the accident that I had with my partner in 2020 where he unfortunately passed away.

00:30:03:13 - 00:30:11:10
Phil
But and, like, I don't know if this is warped at all, but then it kind of like, again, that also gives me some type of, like, positive, you know, it's like, oh, well, I didn't fall and, you know, and

00:30:11:10 - 00:30:13:22
Kyle
it almost seems like after that story you doubled down.

00:30:13:28 - 00:30:16:04
Phil
I kind of did actually. Yeah, I kind of.

00:30:16:06 - 00:30:16:26
Kyle
opposite effect.

00:30:16:26 - 00:30:33:10
Phil
Yeah, it did have like the opposite effect on me. If anything I like doubled down and then like tried to, you know. Yeah. Have more control over my situation. The one, the one area with that accident that I still to this day I get really stressed about is like I yeah, I think this is what it is like.

00:30:33:10 - 00:30:51:25
Phil
I'm very comfortable with things that I can control. So I'm comfortable when I'm leading. I'm comfortable when I'm in control the situation. I'm comfortable when my partner's on a rope. I'm not comfortable when my partner's not on a rope or when they're scared or they're freaking out or they're in run out terrain. Like it's almost like I would maybe that's what it is.

00:30:51:25 - 00:31:11:23
Phil
It's like almost like I would rather take the risk than have them take the risk. You know, maybe it's like, I'd rather try and like shoulder that as opposed to them, because then at least I'm in control of the situation. I'm literally just thinking this on the spot, but like that actually might be the thing is, because at least then I'm in control of the outcome and there and I can like ensure their safety.

00:31:11:25 - 00:31:34:17
Phil
Right. Because I think it it does it did like yeah, it did have a huge impact on me because after that I was like I was like, I didn't do any alpine climbing for years. And even the alpine climbing that I do now, I mostly just do it by myself, like, because I don't want. Because with alpine climbing you like spend large amounts of time on ropes like going through easy terrain or moderate rain, which is, you know, what that situation was.

00:31:34:19 - 00:31:40:06
Phil
And, yeah, when I'm with a partner, I just get I'm just stressed. Like, I'm just stressed all the.

00:31:40:06 - 00:31:43:10
Phil
Time, right? Like, I'm just like, how are they doing?

00:31:43:10 - 00:31:54:23
Phil
Like, even on, like, some approaches to, like, ice climbs, you know, I'm just, like, watching them, and I'm stressed and, like, even if they're competent partners and, like, competent climbers, it's just like, in the back of my mind, you know,

00:31:55:01 - 00:31:56:04
Kyle
them falling

00:31:56:07 - 00:31:57:05
Phil
totally.

00:31:57:08 - 00:31:58:29
Kyle
like, oh, God, don't think about

00:31:59:02 - 00:32:16:00
Phil
Yeah. But then once I, like, get to the climb and I can get roped up and they get roped up, then all of a sudden, you know, it's like I'm back in control of the situation and I can, like, control the outcome. And I think, yeah, I think I, I'm like obviously relatively comfortable being in, you know, those situations.

00:32:16:02 - 00:32:27:07
Phil
And I think it is just yeah, going back to like I would almost rather be in them than have someone else be in them because at least then I can control the outcome. And if it's like a long run out, like, you know, I'm stressed thinking about.

00:32:27:07 - 00:32:27:29
Phil
Them falling.

00:32:27:29 - 00:32:30:14
Phil
Whereas like when I'm in, at least I can control it.

00:32:30:17 - 00:32:31:27
Kyle
control of your movement

00:32:32:03 - 00:32:32:23
Phil
Yeah,

00:32:32:25 - 00:32:35:06
Kyle
to the rock, but you're not control of their movement.

00:32:35:06 - 00:32:36:03
Phil
Totally.

00:32:36:05 - 00:32:37:04
Kyle
yeah, I could definitely see

00:32:37:04 - 00:32:38:08
Phil
that. Yeah.

00:32:38:11 - 00:32:51:09
Kyle
And I think it's so interesting how like this whole like survivorship bias or these certain lessons like certain people take like one accident, even if it doesn't happen to them and applies like that and it changes their entire risk

00:32:51:12 - 00:32:54:02
Phil
or everything. Yeah. And

00:32:54:02 - 00:33:09:19
Kyle
then there's people like you where it's like, okay, this happened and I'm going to learn this lesson in this entire, like super specific single thing, like someone else climbing that I don't have control over could die. Got it. Like I'm going to be stressed about that, but it doesn't change anything else.

00:33:09:22 - 00:33:11:12
Phil
Yeah yeah yeah.

00:33:11:12 - 00:33:13:01
Kyle
I risk tolerance everywhere else doesn't matter,

00:33:13:01 - 00:33:13:14
Phil
Yeah.

00:33:13:14 - 00:33:14:05
Phil
That's that's

00:33:14:08 - 00:33:15:11
Kyle
interesting how so many like,

00:33:15:14 - 00:33:15:24
Phil
Yeah.

00:33:16:01 - 00:33:16:26
Kyle
to certain things differently.

00:33:17:02 - 00:33:29:05
Phil
Yeah. It's it's Like who knows what that is. That's like psychology or something like that. There was, rookie, there was a climber. Another guy on on. Yeah. And this is a good segue into gymnast

00:33:29:05 - 00:33:29:28
Kyle
There we go.

00:33:30:01 - 00:33:33:13
Phil
love you. And this guy.

00:33:33:15 - 00:33:48:23
Phil
But he, he was with a partner, and they were doing a route, and they're both incredibly experienced. At least the. Yeah, the one guy was incredibly experienced, for sure. And he was going up, it was like an easy climb. They were just, like, out for, like, an easy day. It was like five, eight or something like that.

00:33:48:25 - 00:34:07:05
Phil
And he fell and he pendulum and traversed. His rope was cut, fell to his death. And the other guy, his partner was just like on the ledge, and he was on the ledge for like two hours, like waiting for search and rescue you. And so you finally, like, showed up and got them off. You know, how let him down.

00:34:07:07 - 00:34:26:04
Phil
And that was just it for him. He's like, nope, I'm done. Like I'm done. I think he went out like one more time and he's like, nope. I'm just like, absolutely done climbing. And so like, why did he choose to, like, never climb again? And why did I choose to double down and do more climbing? I like I don't know, that's just some.

00:34:26:04 - 00:34:27:21
Phil
Something in the brain, some.

00:34:27:21 - 00:34:30:16
Phil
Psychology or something like that. I don't know.

00:34:30:19 - 00:34:37:01
Kyle
for me it boils down to like how much you value the experience of climbing.

00:34:37:03 - 00:34:38:29
Phil
Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Yep. Yeah.

00:34:39:01 - 00:34:45:17
Kyle
I mean I think that's ultimately that's it. It's like I cannot think of a situation that would prevent me from

00:34:45:20 - 00:34:46:12
Phil
Yeah. Like

00:34:46:14 - 00:35:02:07
Kyle
even if something super traumatic happened, like, I mean, I feel like I would still jump back on the horse in some way just because it's so integral to who I am. Like, I think for some people, climbing can be a hobby and for others it's a it's a lifestyle.

00:35:02:09 - 00:35:12:16
Kyle
And I think for those who for who, it's a like a deep, ingrained part of their life. It's like you can't just walk away from that because you're essentially walking away from like a part of who you are.

00:35:12:20 - 00:35:14:22
Phil
Yeah, yeah yeah yeah.

00:35:14:22 - 00:35:31:12
Phil
I don't yeah. Maybe for him it like wasn't as integral to his life. But I feel like it's such an integral part to my life. Yeah. I've tried to like, balance my life a little bit. And I still think it's like pretty skewed. I would say my life is like 65%.

00:35:31:12 - 00:35:32:25
Phil
Climbing.

00:35:32:27 - 00:35:53:17
Phil
And then maybe like 35% business, like something in that range. But I try to have like something else in my life. So, you know, if you have like shitty days climbing, it's not the end of the world. You know, it doesn't like, oh my God, what am I do like if you're like, climbing full time and you have, like, bad days, I feel like it, like, really affects you because you're like, I remember when I took a year off and I just, like, climbed all the time.

00:35:53:17 - 00:35:57:02
Phil
I was so hard on myself because I was like, all you're doing is climbing.

00:35:57:02 - 00:36:00:21
Phil
This is all you have, and you suck at it.

00:36:00:23 - 00:36:16:10
Phil
And so when you're doing it all the time, you're like, really? You know, that has to be the thing versus if you have something else going, like if like, you know, for me it's business, but whatever it is something else. So it's like, yeah, well, you know, I do suck at this today, but that's okay because I'm like, go, you know, do something else and, you know, get in some business and, you know, build some things over there.

00:36:16:10 - 00:36:31:08
Phil
And I'm successful in another aspect of my life. But if you're like all in on it, like those, I feel like for me, maybe not for everyone else, but for me, those days, like when I took a year off and I would have bad days or I just like, wasn't climbing what I thought I could climb. It would like, really affect me.

00:36:31:08 - 00:36:36:25
Phil
I'm like, dude, who fucking cares? Like just relax and have fun. That's where we're supposed to be. It's supposed to be fun, I think. Yeah.

00:36:36:25 - 00:36:37:24
Phil
So

00:36:37:27 - 00:36:45:15
Kyle
Now we talk about that concept or I talk about that concept a lot on the show is just like diversifying your attention or diversifying your skill sets

00:36:45:15 - 00:36:46:10
Phil
Yeah, it's something else.

00:36:46:11 - 00:36:58:17
Kyle
It's so critical to have something else in the pocket besides climbing because like, like that example you just said is like, so, what's the word?

00:36:58:19 - 00:36:59:08
Kyle
I've seen it so

00:36:59:08 - 00:36:59:29
Phil
much? Yeah.

00:37:00:00 - 00:37:01:16
Phil
Like where? Like, other climbers are just all in.

00:37:01:20 - 00:37:04:02
Kyle
yeah, I mean, all you do nothing but climbing, nothing but

00:37:04:04 - 00:37:04:27
Phil
Yeah.

00:37:04:29 - 00:37:10:10
Kyle
I think the biggest thing is like, if you get injured and you can't climb anymore the amount of time that you've spent climbing.

00:37:10:15 - 00:37:10:27
Phil
Yeah.

00:37:11:05 - 00:37:16:14
Kyle
Like now you look back at that and you're like, fuck. Like, I haven't done anything else.

00:37:16:17 - 00:37:18:08
Kyle
you know, now I have no skills.

00:37:18:08 - 00:37:19:12
Kyle
Like I'm not.

00:37:19:15 - 00:37:20:11
Kyle
Yeah.

00:37:20:14 - 00:37:22:00
Kyle
This must be something in the room.

00:37:22:02 - 00:37:22:28
Phil
Yeah.

00:37:23:00 - 00:37:24:20
Phil
Well I think it's because first thing in the morning we're.

00:37:24:20 - 00:37:26:14
Phil
Still working on.

00:37:26:16 - 00:37:28:29
Phil
Is the first Am podcast you've done. Yeah.

00:37:29:02 - 00:37:30:09
Kyle
Yeah, I probably look ragged.

00:37:30:12 - 00:37:31:15
Phil
Yeah. We do look ragged.

00:37:31:15 - 00:37:32:05
Phil
We do? Yeah.

00:37:32:05 - 00:37:34:24
Phil
We've got a big day yesterday and.

00:37:34:27 - 00:37:41:12
Kyle
But yeah, just diversifying that skillset, making sure you have something else to get back on to.

00:37:41:14 - 00:37:42:07
Phil
totally. I had to

00:37:42:10 - 00:37:43:28
Kyle
learn that lesson the hard way with my accident

00:37:44:01 - 00:37:46:02
Phil
Yeah, that's true actually. Yeah, I

00:37:46:02 - 00:37:51:14
Kyle
that it happened when it did because I had just made the decision to, like, climb into everything,

00:37:51:14 - 00:37:52:23
Phil
No, no. Okay.

00:37:52:23 - 00:37:53:11
Phil
Like two

00:37:53:11 - 00:37:56:07
Kyle
weeks later, the universe is just like, that's a bad idea,

00:37:56:07 - 00:37:57:02
Phil
Yeah. It's

00:37:57:03 - 00:38:03:02
Kyle
I learned that lesson. I was like, I was in a wheelchair. I was forced to, like, reckon with myself and be like, okay. Like,

00:38:03:04 - 00:38:03:14
Phil
there is

00:38:03:19 - 00:38:04:16
Phil
other things.

00:38:04:16 - 00:38:05:15
Kyle
fucking figure something else

00:38:05:15 - 00:38:05:23
Phil
out.

00:38:05:23 - 00:38:06:04
Phil
There.

00:38:06:04 - 00:38:15:13
Kyle
then I found, like, camera work. I started, changed my career to work behind a camera. I created all this opportunity for myself that I now like, reaping the rewards from.

00:38:15:13 - 00:38:16:03
Phil
Totally.

00:38:16:10 - 00:38:22:01
Kyle
but I still also jump back on the horse and approach climbing in this completely new lens.

00:38:22:04 - 00:38:34:19
Kyle
And so basically, the time that you invest, like, I worry about people who like, like spend their entire 20s climbing, doing the van life, like a decade of your life doing nothing but climbing.

00:38:34:22 - 00:38:35:12
Phil
I mean, it would be pretty.

00:38:35:12 - 00:38:37:09
Phil
Awesome, though. I maybe,

00:38:37:09 - 00:38:37:18
Kyle
we all

00:38:37:18 - 00:38:41:16
Phil
but then you but then you get into your 30s and you're like, fuck, what do I do now?

00:38:41:16 - 00:38:42:25
Kyle
a fucking midlife crisis

00:38:42:25 - 00:38:43:06
Phil
Yeah,

00:38:43:06 - 00:38:45:09
Kyle
because all your friends have jobs and like,

00:38:45:11 - 00:38:49:11
Phil
Houses, careers partners, investments.

00:38:49:14 - 00:38:50:09
Phil
Yeah.

00:38:50:12 - 00:38:51:23
Phil
Dude, I love peanut butter and jelly, though.

00:38:51:27 - 00:38:53:21
Phil
Hahahahahahahaha looking for

00:38:53:21 - 00:38:59:14
Kyle
the next climb. Yeah. So I think it's just, there's a different pathway and a different timeline for everyone.

00:38:59:16 - 00:39:17:02
Kyle
But I think just that concept and realizing the like there is more else out there is more out there. And every I think this is really important to note too. So far everyone I've talked to that are like super successful, like,

00:39:17:05 - 00:39:20:18
Kyle
Accomplished climbers.

00:39:20:20 - 00:39:34:03
Kyle
Have something else. Yeah. It like I've never I have yet to speak to somebody who is a super accomplished climber that has just been a friend, Becky, their entire life. Yeah. I literally haven't met one like or I, you know, if someone knows somebody send them

00:39:34:07 - 00:39:35:22
Phil
Yeah, yeah.

00:39:35:24 - 00:39:41:20
Kyle
But, like, I can, I can think of so many names and it's like they have another career.

00:39:41:23 - 00:39:54:23
Kyle
They have something else. Like, sometimes, like big careers, like big things that they've done, but they also are climbing. Five, 13 climbing, five, 12, like these routes that people are trying to train their life for, like their you can do more, you know, like

00:39:54:23 - 00:39:55:00
Phil
yeah.

00:39:55:00 - 00:39:57:06
Kyle
you don't have to dedicate every ounce to

00:39:57:09 - 00:40:15:21
Phil
I think it's just like that A-type personality as well. I think like people that can get really consumed by climbing and are like an all or nothing personality. Like, I am definitely like an all or nothing personality. Like if I choose to do something, I want to go all in on it. And then so usually how I think that like, expands into your entire life is like everything you do, you go all in on, right?

00:40:15:21 - 00:40:35:23
Phil
So it's like climbing. I'm like, all in on this business. I'm all on this. When I get into relationship, I'm like, all in on the relationship. So I think it is just like that type of personality that like suits those like elite level grades and elite level climbing. Well, they usually have other things going back. It's like very seldom that they're like all in on this and they have nothing else in their life that they're like, you know, passionate about.

00:40:35:25 - 00:40:36:24
Phil
Yeah.

00:40:36:27 - 00:40:42:05
Kyle
yeah. No it's cool man. Met some really cool people and, it's I think, like,

00:40:42:08 - 00:40:44:16
Phil
Yeah, you've done it. This is like 115.

00:40:44:16 - 00:40:45:20
Phil
Or.

00:40:45:20 - 00:40:47:29
Phil
122. That's amazing.

00:40:48:02 - 00:40:50:04
Phil
Yeah. Because I was what was the.

00:40:50:04 - 00:40:52:11
Phil
My very first one that I did. I think it was like a 30.

00:40:52:11 - 00:40:54:13
Phil
Yeah.

00:40:54:16 - 00:40:56:03
Kyle
yeah, it's been a long time.

00:40:56:05 - 00:41:09:26
Phil
That's crazy. Dude, you've done amazing with this. You've done you've done so good with this. It's like every time I'm on it, like, you like, level it up. One more, one more. I remember like the first one was just like on a on a webcam in my house. And then the second one was like, love is still webcam.

00:41:09:26 - 00:41:17:04
Phil
This is the first in-person one we've done. Yeah. And I think now you just like strictly do in-person or you want to strictly do in-person. I think it's better.

00:41:17:06 - 00:41:17:28
Phil
Yeah.

00:41:18:01 - 00:41:43:19
Kyle
Just because I have the space, I have the equipment, and it's just so much better. Like the conversational flow is better. I love having the cinema quality video and, these mics, and you also get to meet people like, digital relationships are so strange because it's like you, you see what they post on Instagram, you know, you see that personality and like you DM them and it's like, oh, Stokes vibes, blah, blah, blah.

00:41:43:19 - 00:41:49:22
Kyle
You know, it's cool, but putting a face and a personal like handshake, eye contact, interaction

00:41:49:25 - 00:41:50:00
Phil
Yeah.

00:41:50:07 - 00:42:07:19
Kyle
human, is so much different. And it really like. Gives a face to the name. And so that way, like when you go back to that level of digital relationship, you have that personal experience to like, yeah, like have as a foundation and it creates just such a better, connection.

00:42:07:21 - 00:42:12:22
Kyle
And like the network, like I can probably travel around the country and like, have places to stay

00:42:12:22 - 00:42:13:14
Phil
Yeah.

00:42:13:20 - 00:42:18:27
Kyle
people to climb with, like when you, yeah, when you take the time to meet people in person, it means a lot.

00:42:19:03 - 00:42:35:21
Phil
I feel like that was like one of the biggest benefits of. And I have, like, the smallest little YouTube and Instagram following in the world, but even like, what small little, you know, following and group that I've been able to create is like it for me. It's been like amazing. Because again, yeah, you like travel all these different places, you can like find different partners.

00:42:35:21 - 00:42:51:13
Phil
And I've been able to meet so many people on social media for like staying at places I do. We meet on social media through Max. Oh, through Max. Okay. But Max I met on social media. So like this relationship right here was through social media. So yeah, I mean, it's yeah, it's been super beneficial.

00:42:51:14 - 00:42:52:16
Phil
I think that's like

00:42:52:18 - 00:43:03:01
Kyle
I love that like you and I and other people like that's what the tools for. It's social media. Like it's, it's for us to connect with each other not doom scroll fucking.

00:43:03:03 - 00:43:05:06
Phil
Although I do that too.

00:43:05:08 - 00:43:06:23
Phil
Yeah that's about the same.

00:43:06:23 - 00:43:07:11
Phil
But there

00:43:07:11 - 00:43:08:22
Kyle
are some people it's like, that's it.

00:43:08:22 - 00:43:09:00
Kyle
Like

00:43:09:00 - 00:43:09:26
Phil
you like, yeah. You

00:43:09:29 - 00:43:29:24
Kyle
got like, no, you're not producing anything, you're just a consumer and you're sitting there just like mindlessly scrolling content. It's like, that's not what it was meant for. Like the whole thing was meant to connect us and like, build relationships that exist outside of the digital space. And I think that like that, that part of the tool, I have been able to really, really, extract,

00:43:29:27 - 00:43:31:23
Phil
Yeah. That's amazing.

00:43:31:26 - 00:43:37:06
Kyle
and, yeah, it's been so cool to meet so many cool people that you otherwise would never be able to meet.

00:43:37:08 - 00:43:38:27
Phil
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No,

00:43:38:27 - 00:43:39:21
Kyle
that's been great for that.

00:43:39:24 - 00:43:40:12
Kyle
Yeah.

00:43:40:15 - 00:43:58:03
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00:44:53:01 - 00:44:57:10
Kyle
Let's, let's talk about. Yeah. So, so

00:44:57:13 - 00:44:58:16
Phil
Did I love you, so much

00:44:58:23 - 00:45:03:25
Kyle
before we hear the stories, like, lay it like for people who don't know what it is, where it is, how it is. Give me the

00:45:03:28 - 00:45:23:20
Phil
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maska is basically like, a kilometer wide and at it's maybe, you know, tallest point, 300 meter high. It was like 1000ft. 200ft, something like that. Yeah. It's basically like this cliff, in the Canadian Rockies. It's like the first mountain you get to when you're driving out to the Rockies. It's on the right. It's a cliff band.

00:45:23:22 - 00:45:33:19
Phil
It's there's like 200 routes on it. It was like some of the first routes. It's actually a, a documentary called The Ragged Edge. You should absolutely watch it. It's free on Red bull TV.

00:45:33:22 - 00:45:34:17
Phil
Go watch.

00:45:34:17 - 00:45:50:06
Phil
It. You haven't seen it. Go watch it tonight or what? May. Not tonight, but watch it. Watch it. It's free on Red bull TV, just like go to Red bull TV. But it was like the birthplace for climbing, in the Canadian Rockies. I think the first rule was put up in like 1954, and they just, like, quest it off into.

00:45:50:06 - 00:45:51:14
Phil
Like, oblivion.

00:45:51:14 - 00:46:10:21
Phil
And and like doing that right now. That's girl Mars chimney. Doing it now. You're just like, how did you guys do this in the 50s? But it's like notoriously run out. It's notoriously chalky. It's a really bad rock. And I'm like, oh, wow, I'm really selling it. And but I think, like, so when I first started, rock climbing.

00:46:10:21 - 00:46:19:28
Phil
So I've only rock climb for like three years, I've ice climbed for eight years, and I've rock climb for three. I think this is my fourth year now of rock climbing. Yeah. So I, I did a.

00:46:20:00 - 00:46:22:22
Phil
Weird I did I, when.

00:46:22:24 - 00:46:37:26
Phil
I went the opposite way very well. No even I don't think this is like the normal thing. I went from like hiking to scrambling, scrambling to like kind of alpine climbing, like just mountaineering, you know, just like, oh, I bought the boots and everything. And then I had the boots and I had the guy who's like, oh, you want to go dry tooling?

00:46:37:26 - 00:46:52:08
Phil
I was like, I don't know what that is, but I had the tools and everything's I don't want dry tooling and then dry tooling to ice climbing. And then I got sucked down a rabbit hole of like, ice climbing and mixed climbing and, yeah, three years ago. Yeah. I guess three years ago, I was like, oh, I want to like, get more.

00:46:52:08 - 00:46:58:19
Phil
And I actually wanted to get more into rock climbing. So I was more confident place in gear so I could do harder mix climbs. That was.

00:46:58:19 - 00:46:59:23
Phil
The original.

00:46:59:26 - 00:47:02:25
Phil
Reason I started rock climbing. And then I saw rock climbing like Phillip.

00:47:02:27 - 00:47:09:04
Phil
You are such an idiot. Yeah, this is way better than ice climbing. Why have you.

00:47:09:04 - 00:47:28:28
Phil
Waited so long to do this? But, Yeah, Nasca just holds like a special place in my heart because that was like the first mountain. And I heard, like, everyone say, like, oh, if you can climb on yam, you can climb anywhere. Because if you can, like, handle the rock quality and the run outs and the chores and like the route finding and everything, the complicated nature of your Nasca, you'll be fine.

00:47:28:28 - 00:47:39:13
Phil
Like in Squamish, on crack or anywhere else. Really. Not anywhere else in the world, but definitely like it's a tough mountain to learn on. And I think I just like heard that and I like gravitated towards that. Oh, that sounds that sounds pretty. Nah.

00:47:39:13 - 00:47:41:13
Kyle
Sounds like I'm gonna find a lot of shenanigans there.

00:47:41:16 - 00:47:43:11
Phil
Yeah I yeah it's yeah that I've.

00:47:43:13 - 00:48:01:04
Phil
I've found some shenanigans but yeah I did, I bought like a double rack like that summer. I was like, sweetie, I'll buy a double rack and I just like quest it out. And man, I have so many stories. Like, there's too many to even recount them all. But it's just like a wild mountain. Like run outs and chimney climbing and just wild position.

00:48:01:04 - 00:48:16:17
Phil
It's adventure climbing. That's what it it is like full on adventure climbing. And I started that summer. I did a bunch with like a bunch of partners and they were awesome. We had so many like fun adventures and I have like a few videos. There's actually one post that's on my Instagram that you should go check out if you haven't seen it where I like, finish this list.

00:48:16:23 - 00:48:34:01
Phil
But I started that summer. That bled into another summer. The second summer, and there was this list called the calendar 34, and it's the original 34 roots that were put into the original 34 guidebook. And I'm not like a less person or like, you know, I don't want to tick everything. Like, that's not like, you know what I go for.

00:48:34:08 - 00:48:53:27
Phil
But I had turned 34. This was last summer, I turned 34, and I was like up on Nasca. And Kaylee was like, hey, like which which roots have you done? Like which like, what have you done out of the list? And was like, oh, actually, like, let me go look, cause I wasn't doing the list, but just unintentionally, I had done, I think like 20 out of the 34 already.

00:48:54:01 - 00:48:58:14
Phil
And I was like, oh, I've done like 20 of them already, and I've already done. So I'm like kind of hard one. So like there's not.

00:48:58:16 - 00:48:59:11
Phil
That there's only.

00:48:59:13 - 00:49:09:22
Phil
14 left. And a lot of them are like on the east end of the West End, which I like the shorter sides. I mean, I'm Nasca, so you could do like one or 2 or 3 in a day, right? So then all of a sudden it was like in my head it was like.

00:49:09:22 - 00:49:15:06
Phil
I have to finish the calendar 34 at 34. I have to do it before I turn 35.

00:49:15:08 - 00:49:23:28
Phil
And so that summer we just like quest it off and we're like nailing, like just getting them every weekend, trying to get them all and get them all in. And there's some like some wild ones we're on like Crazy.

00:49:23:28 - 00:49:26:26
Phil
Rhino and such as, like scary jaws.

00:49:26:26 - 00:49:27:09
Phil
That like.

00:49:27:12 - 00:49:30:21
Phil
Legs are shaking like, oh God, watch me.

00:49:30:24 - 00:49:47:06
Phil
But, and shenanigans. But, then I think it was like, I think it was like two weeks before my birthday or maybe like even ten days. And I think I had I know it was a week. It was a week before my birthday. That's what it was. It was a week before my birthday, and I one route left, which I had already been on.

00:49:47:13 - 00:50:03:06
Phil
It was kind of like the crux of the the whole list. It was called, yellow Edge, which goes at like 11 C, but it's like it's all in gear. It's fucking hard trad. It's like old school 11 C it's like stout, right. And we had gone up before and.

00:50:03:06 - 00:50:04:04
Phil
My buddy.

00:50:04:06 - 00:50:10:14
Phil
Unfortunately he was on like the 11 pitch and he just like guessed on the wrong way on this like, finger crack. And he.

00:50:10:14 - 00:50:14:08
Phil
Dislocated shoulder. And then, like, I still kept.

00:50:14:08 - 00:50:33:25
Phil
Going, like I got to the belay and then I, like, quested off on the second last pitch were almost done it and then, unfortunately, like a rainstorm came in, just showered us. So, unfortunately didn't get it done. So I had to go back and do that. But it's a week before my birthday. I'm walking down of Nasca, just like casually strolling down.

00:50:34:00 - 00:50:43:22
Phil
I've had no injuries on. Yeah, I've never taken a bad fall on. Yeah, I'm like, no gears ripped or anything. I'm walking down the hiking path and absolutely just fucking twist.

00:50:43:22 - 00:50:53:02
Phil
Roll my ankle like directly 90 degrees. Just like to walk it sideways. I'm like, what the fuck just happened? Then I'm like limping down.

00:50:53:07 - 00:50:55:14
Phil
My foot the next day, like, swells up like.

00:50:55:14 - 00:50:56:11
Phil
Three.

00:50:56:11 - 00:50:57:11
Phil
Sizes.

00:50:57:11 - 00:50:57:18
Kyle
Yeah.

00:50:57:19 - 00:51:03:16
Phil
And I'm like, oh my God, I have frickin six days left to finish this. And so like.

00:51:03:16 - 00:51:21:08
Phil
Every day for like, probably like 3 or 4 times a day, I'm like cold pack, hot pack, cold pack, hot pack. And then finally I could go to the gym and put it in like a running shoe, like a tennis shoe, like a trainer shoe. And I was like, climbing like that. Then I could finally get it in, like a rock climbing shoe.

00:51:21:15 - 00:51:35:20
Phil
And then I could do a little bit of the gym. And I think it was two days before my birthday, and it was like the weekend of or three days before my birthday, but I was leaving one day before my birthday for a trip, so I only had two chances to do this. So it's like do or die at this point.

00:51:35:20 - 00:51:51:10
Phil
Like I had to do it right. It was like this day was Saturday or Sunday. So we went on Saturday, went up, went with my buddy Noah, who like shout out Noah. This is like my main climbing partner for yam. He's like this young kid. He's like 24 and he's like very 80 personality. Just like quests off.

00:51:51:10 - 00:52:05:29
Phil
He's like, he loves the. As much as I love the guys, I love this guy. But, we got it done. We like, did all the pitches, got it done. And then like got to the top. And Kaylee was there with my friend Michael and they like surprised us. They brought, like, beer and.

00:52:06:03 - 00:52:09:01
Phil
Donuts and like, yes, Gatorade.

00:52:09:04 - 00:52:26:05
Phil
And then like, Kaylee made us, like, t shirts, and it's like the shorts boss and has, like, the Kalin 34 on the back. So that was awesome, man. I mean, I'm not like a huge, like, you know, less person, but I was like, actually, I was like, super proud of, like, finishing that list. Like, I didn't think it was like, mean as much to me as it would.

00:52:26:05 - 00:52:44:08
Phil
I was like, oh, I'm just gonna like, do this list and everything. But then I kind of finished. I was like, man, what a journey. It's been like three years since I've started rock climbing. And I remember, like going on. Yeah, at the beginning and like, my buddy and like my two buddies that were like leading that year and they were like, quite confident and comfortable climbers, just like questing off.

00:52:44:08 - 00:52:48:06
Phil
And I was like, never in a million years would I lead any of this shit. Like, this is.

00:52:48:06 - 00:52:52:29
Phil
So fucked up. Like I would never, ever, ever lead this. This is so.

00:52:52:29 - 00:53:13:24
Phil
Fubar. And then like, fast forward three years, I'm like leading it all and like on crux pitches and run outs and it's just like, it's so cool to look back and be like, wow. Like what a journey this has been. This is awesome. And like, I went from an absolute Gumby, you know, to like not being comfortable in the slightest on that mountain to now being like, I'm super comfortable on that mountain and, you know, super confident.

00:53:14:00 - 00:53:28:10
Phil
And so it's like, really cool to see that journey. And I was like super proud of I did again. Like I didn't think it would like, mean as much to me as it did. And then I kind of finished. I was like, that's really cool, man. Like you are. You should be really proud. He was like a I find, like I have I struggle with this a little bit.

00:53:28:10 - 00:53:48:00
Phil
Like I don't celebrate that many like milestones. You know, I usually like accomplish something and then immediately I'm like, okay, cool, what's the next thing? But I think this one in particular, I just like took a second. I was like, yeah, I feel like you should be pretty psyched right now. Like you should be. That's a lot of like hard run out, scary climbs and like, very few people, like, I don't know how many people have finished this, you know.

00:53:48:00 - 00:53:50:04
Phil
Silly little list, but like, not.

00:53:50:04 - 00:54:00:18
Phil
Not a huge amount. Like, I don't, I don't know, maybe 30 or 40 people or something like that, maybe less. I don't even know. There's no like official list, but like, definitely there's some routes.

00:54:00:18 - 00:54:02:00
Phil
On there that obviously very.

00:54:02:00 - 00:54:03:17
Phil
Few repeats because there's so.

00:54:03:17 - 00:54:05:04
Phil
Rundown and scary.

00:54:05:07 - 00:54:35:01
Phil
So, yeah. So I was like super, super psyched on them. And that was probably like the biggest accomplishment going into the fall last year was getting that list done. And, and now that now that that list is done, you know, because, you know, when I first started, I just was doing whatever and unintentionally doing the list. But then last year I definitely switched to just this list, which kind of, you know, felt a little bit like restrictive, you know, because then I just had to do the routes, whether they were good routes or not, you know, it was just like, I have to do the list.

00:54:35:03 - 00:54:48:12
Phil
But as soon as I finish the last, then I, like, immediately went home and I got the guidebook and I was like, all right, now I get to pick what I want to climb. So I actually created me and my buddy, his last name is McDonald, Nolan McDonald. And so we created this McDonald 26.

00:54:48:15 - 00:54:50:26
Phil
So it's 26 routes to do.

00:54:50:28 - 00:54:56:26
Phil
After you do the call in 34. Yeah. And it's like a it's a gnarliest dude.

00:54:56:27 - 00:54:58:19
Phil
It's so great. Yeah.

00:54:58:19 - 00:55:14:23
Phil
It's like so many, so many great routes. And the nice thing about. Yeah, it's like the early, the first 34 routes were all like natural on gear right after that was like the 80s psychotic era with like, Jeff Marshall and Steve Mayo where, like, bolting was frowned upon.

00:55:14:23 - 00:55:16:03
Phil
So like, don't put any bolts in.

00:55:16:03 - 00:55:26:09
Phil
So then it was just like super hot because all the natural lines were climbed. So now they're like, okay, we have to do like, you know, natural to a face, to a natural to a face. And it's just like.

00:55:26:09 - 00:55:27:22
Phil
Massive run.

00:55:27:22 - 00:55:45:11
Phil
Outs and like X, like are X rated climbs. And that was like the 80s. And this is all in the documentary, by the way. If you're interested in it, you can watch it. But from like the 80s to the 90s was like this psychotic era where there's like five hard climbs, like up to 12, like like 11, minus two, like 12.

00:55:45:14 - 00:55:51:22
Phil
Somewhere in that range of just like X, and they're just like psychotic climbs.

00:55:51:24 - 00:55:53:03
Phil
And then after that.

00:55:53:05 - 00:56:10:05
Phil
Which those are on the list, by the way, they're all they all look amazing. They look really cool. And then after that, you know, in the 90s, going into 2000, all of a sudden bolting was allowed. So now, you know, it started to become more like modern mixed. So it's like gear with like bolting where you won't die, which is great.

00:56:10:05 - 00:56:28:28
Phil
And a lot of those climbs are on the list. And then of course, in the 2000, you know, going into 2010, etc., moving forward, then all of a sudden sport climbing became more of a thing. And then the like, all bolted lines started to come into play as well. We just had a really hard, I think like up to I think there's like 14 a on on gymnast guy.

00:56:28:28 - 00:56:33:08
Phil
I think that's the blue gene direct. That's not on the list. That's a little.

00:56:33:08 - 00:56:35:07
Phil
Above my pay grade for.

00:56:35:07 - 00:56:36:13
Phil
Now. For now.

00:56:36:16 - 00:56:37:26
Kyle
on the 26?

00:56:37:28 - 00:56:40:02
Phil
No, no, we haven't had anything on the 26.

00:56:40:04 - 00:56:41:14
Phil
I just made it.

00:56:41:14 - 00:56:59:04
Phil
I just made this this list. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, we haven't climbed anything. I could I could get my phone and read off a couple of. But it's like there's some great climbers there. I was super psyched for it. And I'm also super psyched to, like, to, like, crank hard on yam as well, because, like, the 34, you for sure like cranking hard.

00:56:59:04 - 00:57:16:12
Phil
But it was like in that all natural era. So it's a lot of like chimneys and crack climbing and going, you know, through natural features up the mountain. Not a lot of like there is definitely some face climbing for sure. But going into like the modern era and I included a lot of those roots in this new list.

00:57:16:14 - 00:57:33:04
Phil
There's so many like modern mixed with, like, more bold, like, you know, up to like, you know, whatever, 11 plus, 12 minus or something, but it's bolted. So I'm like, I'm super psyched because usually on. Yeah, I'm you're just like, you can like in your mind you're like, I cannot fall because, like, the gear is probably bad.

00:57:33:05 - 00:57:44:27
Phil
It's probably a shock. You kind of have that mentality versus now going more into this, like mixed era of the 90s and 2000. It's like, oh, sweet. I'm just like psyched to crank hard now and like, feel like I could.

00:57:44:27 - 00:57:46:03
Phil
Fall, you know, like I'm.

00:57:46:03 - 00:57:49:28
Phil
Not fearing for my life on anymore. Like, don't get me wrong, just by still going to be like massive right now.

00:57:49:29 - 00:57:50:16
Phil
It's things like.

00:57:50:16 - 00:57:52:24
Phil
That. But I feel like, you know, might be like new.

00:57:52:24 - 00:57:55:00
Phil
Anchors, you know, maybe chains.

00:57:55:03 - 00:57:57:28
Phil
Like, there's a lot of, like, janky little piton.

00:57:57:28 - 00:58:00:00
Phil
Anchors and like.

00:58:00:03 - 00:58:12:01
Phil
Old, like crappy little, you know, the ones they like hammer in with the ring or whatever. There's a lot of old gear that you just had to be like, okay, I'm clipping this and this is the anchor, but this is dog shit.

00:58:12:04 - 00:58:17:04
Kyle
Why? So, like, again, I guess this is back to, like, the personality trait. Like,

00:58:17:06 - 00:58:20:21
Kyle
like you said, like, oh, I'm really selling this place.

00:58:20:25 - 00:58:22:15
Phil
Yeah,

00:58:22:18 - 00:58:31:25
Kyle
I think a lot of people hearing these things, like, would be like, dude, this is fucked. Like, I would never want to go there and here, here, sitting like, talking about it looks like fucking lit

00:58:31:25 - 00:58:33:01
Phil
up.

00:58:33:03 - 00:58:33:15
Phil
It's like

00:58:33:15 - 00:58:35:02
Kyle
best fucking thing you could possibly

00:58:35:02 - 00:58:35:27
Phil
Yeah

00:58:36:00 - 00:58:37:18
Phil
dude, it is the best thing.

00:58:37:18 - 00:58:39:15
Kyle
Yeah. Like, what about that? Climbing, like, fires you up so

00:58:39:18 - 00:58:42:22
Phil


00:58:42:24 - 00:59:02:10
Phil
I think it's just like. I mean, there's several things. One, I think it's like the adventure. Like it's so it's adventure, right? Like it's it's you're questing off into the unknown, right? And maybe like, I haven't done any phase, but maybe that's like, you know, the, the hard desire for phase, right. But it's like it's always like, it's so adventurous.

00:59:02:10 - 00:59:17:18
Phil
It's like it's super, you know, you got to quest off into oblivion. And route finding is difficult. And it's not just like it's not just turn your brain off and crank. Right. It's very much like I need to think about so many things. Like, is my gear good? Is this good? Where's the play? Is rockfall going to come down?

00:59:17:18 - 00:59:37:25
Phil
Like, do I need to move it over here. Do I go left or right? Like, should I commit to this freaking run out? You know, it's like there's so much going on and it's such a rewarding experience, like putting that all together and the route finding, you know, the run outs, the chassis nature, not knowing where to go, you know, it's and you're just questing off on it.

00:59:37:25 - 00:59:56:07
Phil
And then like when it all comes together, you're just like, wow, that was the most amazing adventure ever. I find more out you can't you don't get that on sport routes. No. Like anywhere else. You just like I go like it's more of the physical attributes of climbing. You're like, I need to crank hard, so I need to crank up my fingers and like, I got to do the move and, you know, gassed on here.

00:59:56:07 - 01:00:15:16
Phil
And did you do and you like put the sequence together, which is like, don't be wrong. I still love sport climbing. And, you know, there's there's a place for that. But for me it's like way more fulfilling and satisfying when you have all these other components that you need to think about and you still like push forward in spite of everything, and you get those moments where you're just like, fuck yeah, dude, I fucking did that.

01:00:15:16 - 01:00:24:05
Phil
Like I quest it off into oblivion. I found some like shit gear, but it was good enough. I kept going, I thought I was supposed to go right kind of fuck that came back down.

01:00:24:05 - 01:00:29:18
Phil
Went left that way, went got up, built a belay. Fuck yeah. We did it. Like it's just such a cool.

01:00:29:18 - 01:00:46:21
Phil
Rewarding experience when you when you have those moments and you push through that, you just you don't get that with, with sport climbing. And I also find you don't get that with just like, like just regular crack climbing. You just like, this is the crack. I go straight up the crack to the top of the mountain.

01:00:46:29 - 01:00:52:16
Phil
I like to put all those different pieces together. I find it much more satisfying and adventurous.

01:00:52:19 - 01:00:59:29
Kyle
don't know if I've brought this, mental concept up, but I've, like, constructed these, like, four pillars of climbing. Have you heard me talk

01:01:00:01 - 01:01:00:27
Phil
No, no no, no.

01:01:01:00 - 01:01:01:29
Phil
Maybe refresh my memory.

01:01:02:07 - 01:01:14:20
Kyle
So, like climbing, you just kind of talk about all these other parts of climbing that we we derive value from. And so I've picked for, like, adventure partnerships, performance and spirituality

01:01:14:23 - 01:01:15:02
Phil
venture.

01:01:15:02 - 01:01:16:15
Phil
Partnerships, performance, spiritual. Okay.

01:01:16:15 - 01:01:16:26
Phil
I'll

01:01:16:29 - 01:01:17:24
Kyle
spirituality real quick.

01:01:17:24 - 01:01:19:15
Kyle
So because I get some pushback on this one,

01:01:19:21 - 01:01:20:21
Phil
Okay.

01:01:20:24 - 01:01:41:02
Kyle
to me, it's more like, the phrase like the outdoors is my church. It's like it's a place for introspection, self-reflection. It's a place where we feel more connected to the world as at large. Or if you believe in a god or a universe or whatever, it's like, at least for me, that like, that place holds meaning in, those kind of aspects.

01:01:41:02 - 01:01:49:25
Kyle
And so that's what the word spirituality means in that way. So rank those for adventure, performance, partnerships and spirituality in order of importance to you and what

01:01:49:29 - 01:01:54:16
Phil
Oh, that's a good one. I feel like it would be, adventure of.

01:01:54:16 - 01:01:59:21
Phil
No, they're all good, though. Fuck. God damn it, I like it.

01:01:59:24 - 01:02:04:27
Kyle
and what I found is, like, as we grow and change as climbers, the tiers change.

01:02:04:29 - 01:02:05:15
Phil
Yeah. Like,

01:02:05:17 - 01:02:11:24
Kyle
Usually it's like performance is number one when we're young. And then as we get older, it, like, goes to adventure, and then it turns to partnerships.

01:02:11:29 - 01:02:16:04
Phil
Man. Do they're also good. They're also important.

01:02:16:07 - 01:02:18:07
Phil
I would say.

01:02:18:10 - 01:02:20:10
Phil
I would say that it.

01:02:20:10 - 01:02:33:01
Phil
Depends on the day as well. Like like they might not all rank the same on every single day. And I think, like, you can kind of have buckets that are like, you know, full or empty and like at some point you might need more of the other. Right.

01:02:33:04 - 01:02:34:07
Kyle
thing that you're feeding those

01:02:34:11 - 01:02:36:08
Phil
Yeah. It might not be like a static thing.

01:02:36:08 - 01:02:56:19
Phil
It might be a variable thing. Like for example, you know, like social time with partners is super important, right? Like I loved I loved to go out with partners and like, have a great time and like, cruise around and have fun. And and this could actually I can tell you about like my partner's selection for the winters but like, yeah, but to go out with partners and like friends and like catch up with people is super fun.

01:02:56:23 - 01:03:11:05
Phil
But for me that's not like a huge spiritual aspect, right? You're going with partners and it's kind of like, you know, today is going to be you're laughing, you have a fun. It's a good time. And it can be an adventure for sure. You know, depending on what you pick. So you could get those two buckets.

01:03:11:05 - 01:03:27:01
Phil
But for me, it wouldn't be very spiritual. For me. I get a lot of the spiritual aspect from soloing and being by myself, and they're not always like, equal, you know what I mean? So like, sometimes I'll like my spiritual bucket will be full and I'll be like, I'm good, I want to go. I want to be with people, right?

01:03:27:01 - 01:03:32:00
Phil
I want to hang out with people. And you know, you know, have a good day and laugh and tell jokes and, you.

01:03:32:00 - 01:03:33:24
Phil
Know, shiver together and.

01:03:33:28 - 01:03:50:15
Phil
Like, have a fun time. But sometimes that spiritual aspect is, is like quite drained, and even like two weeks ago before I came here, I look at that spiritual side just with like everything that was going on in my life and with business and relationships and everything else. I just like, felt like that spiritual aspect and the connection with myself was really low.

01:03:50:18 - 01:04:05:25
Phil
And so I was like, I want to go and just do like a day by myself, totally by myself. And so I like, pick this like one ice climb. I've, I sold it in the past. It's like super awesome. You like, go high up on this mountain and you get, like, so much fun adventure because you get to bike ride, which is great.

01:04:05:25 - 01:04:20:23
Phil
You go for like a nice little bike ride for like whatever, seven kilometers. And then you get to walk through the forest, which is beautiful. And there's like a river there that you get to walk by and it's like flowing. And then you get to climb, like 4 or 5 pitches or six pitches, depending if, you know, an app is buried, some of them or.

01:04:20:23 - 01:04:21:09
Phil
Not.

01:04:21:12 - 01:04:41:20
Phil
Which this year it has, it was only like 4 or 5 pitches. But I've like four and it's like all steps. So it's like a great little warm up. You're just like cruising around, having fun, going through those motions. And then, you get this beautiful walk, like, up the mountain, you know, through the snow. And then you get into this huge gully, which is just like, you know, it's so alpine ask.

01:04:41:20 - 01:04:59:16
Phil
It's beautiful. And you're in this crazy environment. And then there's this, you know, it's like a two between five, five plus or something like that. And it's, it's just an amazing climb in the position and is like outrageous, dude, because you're like way above the highway. You're like almost, you know, not at the top of the mountain, but you're like pretty close.

01:04:59:16 - 01:05:13:12
Phil
You're like two thirds the way up. You're like pretty high up. And it's just like such outrageous environment. So my spiritual bucket was just like so full. And then like also completing it as well. Like, you know, when you're at like the cross section and you're like, this is fucking.

01:05:13:12 - 01:05:14:29
Phil
Pretty wild, right?

01:05:14:29 - 01:05:32:10
Phil
Like you're doing like a hard kind of like overhanging moves on ice and you're like 100m off the ground already. You're like, oh, this. And then the ground is, you know, like a 600m or 800m from from the river, from the base. Bad. You're like, this is outrageous. And this is really awesome.

01:05:32:12 - 01:05:34:28
Phil
And so, like, that's really cool. It's like my spiritual bucket is.

01:05:34:28 - 01:05:35:15
Phil
Super.

01:05:35:15 - 01:05:43:27
Phil
Full now, so now it's like, sweet. I'm stoked to go to Red rocks and like, crank on the other components as well. So, yeah. So it depends on the day. Man.

01:05:43:27 - 01:05:44:22
Phil
I don't know if I could.

01:05:44:22 - 01:05:55:07
Phil
Actually ever rank any of those number one and number two because like some days I want to hang out with partners and it doesn't matter what I do, I just want to hang out with partners. And we could just like, do fucking. We could cruise around on some easy ice or like.

01:05:55:07 - 01:05:56:04
Phil
Like if you came to Canada.

01:05:56:04 - 01:06:13:01
Phil
Dude, it wouldn't matter what we did. I would just, like, cruise around and have a good time with you. Like we could do anything. It doesn't matter, right? Just, like, hang out and cruise around and have fun, right? And like, definitely performance. There's some days where I'm like, dude, I just want to crank hard. And I think having the moon board in, in my garage, like really helps with that.

01:06:13:01 - 01:06:19:15
Phil
And I get to like, Crank hard, you know, two, twice a week. So that's really good. And then what was the on the spiritual and adventure. Yeah, I couldn't

01:06:19:18 - 01:06:20:28
Kyle
all. I like the concept

01:06:21:00 - 01:06:32:07
Phil
It's variable man I could never I could never decide on I couldn't put an order there. They're definitely like they're buckets and and sometimes when you know if.

01:06:32:07 - 01:06:33:04
Phil
You do too much.

01:06:33:04 - 01:06:51:02
Phil
Like like just like cruisy, you know, easy adventure climbing with a partner, it's like those two again, if you do too much like five, eight climbing, you know, like with a girlfriend, for example, if all you're doing is like five, eight climbing and or five nine climbing and you're cruising around eventually like the performance side is going to start getting drained and you're like, I just need to get somewhere.

01:06:51:02 - 01:07:01:27
Phil
And like Craig, hard and like feel that again. And the spiritual side will be, you know, maybe getting drained as well. So it's just levers. I couldn't rank them. It's just levers you have to like. You have to you fill them up as they get depleted.

01:07:01:29 - 01:07:22:03
Kyle
Yeah. No, I like that mental concept for sure. I haven't heard anybody explain it that way. Usually it's like the the variability is time. Your your pillars change into order of importance over time. But I like the way you frame that where it's like they all exist, they all are valuable. They all are. Why I climb. But yeah, you feed them with different objectives depending on where you are.

01:07:22:05 - 01:07:28:01
Phil
Yep. Yeah. And you. Yeah. And you gotta, you gotta, you know, if one's full and one's empty.

01:07:28:01 - 01:07:31:02
Phil
You have to, you have to go to that. You have to fill the other one up.

01:07:31:04 - 01:07:33:07
Kyle
What about your ice climbing season?

01:07:33:09 - 01:07:36:16
Phil
It was Yeah. It wasn't,

01:07:36:19 - 01:07:53:29
Phil
It was a slow year. I didn't actually get that much done. Work was really busy this year. Had a few life changes as well. That kind of took me away from the mountains. But it was still a good year. I mean, I still, I got a few climbs in that, that I never done before, so that was really cool.

01:07:54:04 - 01:08:00:08
Phil
I went up to the parkway, I did curtain call, which I never done before, because it's so far, it's like a three hour drive or a 3.5 hour drive.

01:08:00:08 - 01:08:01:23
Phil
Which maybe actually to some people.

01:08:01:23 - 01:08:03:07
Phil
They're like, what are you talking about? That's like my.

01:08:03:07 - 01:08:04:19
Phil
Career.

01:08:04:22 - 01:08:05:13
Kyle
my commute to work.

01:08:05:13 - 01:08:06:21
Phil
That's my commute to work.

01:08:06:23 - 01:08:21:19
Phil
For me, like 3.5 hours a so. And you got to wake up early to, did. That's a long drive day curtain call. That was amazing. Did Polar Circus with the pencil, with Kelly. That was really cool. That would be the last time that I do, what's.

01:08:21:19 - 01:08:23:13
Phil
Called not polar.

01:08:23:15 - 01:08:27:29
Phil
Pull. It's circus. Thank you. That'll be the last. I had the pencil in my brain.

01:08:28:01 - 01:08:28:22
Phil
So.

01:08:28:22 - 01:08:46:12
Phil
Much objective has a dude. If you look at, like, the RV slopes above, it's fucking fubar. Yeah, that'll be the last I've done that three times now, in the last three years. And I want to take Kelly up. And we did that, did I? I did get one. Cool climbers called Happy Days rarely formed. It's usually rated.

01:08:46:12 - 01:08:47:27
Phil
I think it's rated like six plus.

01:08:48:04 - 01:08:50:00
Phil
Or something like that.

01:08:50:02 - 01:09:05:15
Phil
But there was gear on it. You could, you could, you could put gear on it actually. But it was great. It's rarely ever formed. It's like this pillar you go up the backside of the pillar and then you go around and then you like pull over the front, have the these stemming overhanging moves. It was quite awesome. That was really cool.

01:09:05:18 - 01:09:24:29
Phil
Didn't mixmaster as well. That was really cool I did yeah, I sold Sacré just two weeks ago. That was like a fun spiritual experience. That was really fun. But other than that, man, it was kind of like a slow year. Didn't really do anything that notable in the in the fall, we tried to get on a bunch of things and we just kind of got shut down.

01:09:25:01 - 01:09:44:14
Phil
A bunch of times we tried to do a bunch of like mixed or not mixed, but alpine climbing, but just got shut down for like one reason or another. So I'd like to try and it's like pretty good alpine season actually right now in the Rockies. So I'd like to, when I get back like try and put some effort into like lining up some partners and getting on some objectives.

01:09:44:16 - 01:09:46:00
Phil
But yeah, I was kind of it was a slow.

01:09:46:00 - 01:09:55:21
Phil
Season, man, I didn't I got out, did some, did some climbing, did a few things, had some fun. But nothing. Nothing crazy notable. Nothing like. Yes.

01:09:55:21 - 01:09:55:27
Kyle
career.

01:09:55:27 - 01:09:56:06
Kyle
Defining,

01:09:56:06 - 01:09:58:07
Phil
Nothing. Career defining. Yeah I wish I had yeah.

01:09:58:07 - 01:10:00:16
Phil
Cool. Is it? Share with you.

01:10:00:18 - 01:10:09:13
Phil
But nothing. Yeah. Work was really busy. Went through a few life changes. Really? The biggest, actually, the biggest thing that I did this winter was trained for.

01:10:09:13 - 01:10:10:19
Phil
For rock.

01:10:10:21 - 01:10:30:06
Phil
Like, I got into a really good training regime with, like, the moon board up with the moon board in the garage. And I've been doing like a lot of indoor climbing and Max hangs and things like that. And I also tore my aorta in the fall, and I've healed that over the winter. So it's been kind of like a recovery year, training the lots of training.

01:10:30:06 - 01:10:41:27
Phil
Now that it's like summer, I'm, like, stoked to actually, like, utilize all the training that I've done over the winter and, and, yeah, just life changes. So nothing crazy. I did a couple things, a couple fun things, but nothing career defining.

01:10:42:00 - 01:10:47:07
Kyle
I've interviewed several people who have. I can't interview someone who's dead.

01:10:47:09 - 01:10:50:06
Phil
I don't yet know. You can't. Not yet.

01:10:50:09 - 01:10:51:01
Phil
Yeah, it. We don't know

01:10:51:01 - 01:10:59:28
Kyle
don't know if I would want to do that. Interviewed people who have been a part of accidents of fatalities because of ice pillars collapsing.

01:11:00:01 - 01:11:13:23
Kyle
You have lots of experience climbing pillars. I've heard of it breaking at the top. I've heard of, a chasm forming underneath the pillar, and then the pillar collapses from the bottom.

01:11:13:25 - 01:11:26:19
Kyle
What is your experience with pillars like? How are you mitigating that risk? Have you had any sort of close calls with collapses? Like, what's your thought process in terms of mitigating that risk when you're climbing pillars?

01:11:26:21 - 01:11:51:07
Phil
That is a good question. I think this goes back to like, yeah, I mean, knock on wood, I haven't had any bad experiences. Yeah. Luckily, like, nothing's ever fallen. Like, I think I told you that yesterday, there's a climb called physiotherapy, which there's like a dagger you pull on to. And my friend was there playing another guy.

01:11:51:09 - 01:11:58:18
Phil
And the guy swung into the dagger. The dagger, broke, came down and, like, just severed his arm.

01:11:58:20 - 01:11:59:02
Kyle
Blair's

01:11:59:07 - 01:12:20:23
Phil
the player's arm? Yeah. My buddy. And, it's just like they did multiple surgeries, but it's like, it's just not even connected. Like it's just a dead arm. I had one experience where I was, like, at a crag, and I was like, playing another guy, and he was like, going up, and you, like, swung into the curtain and like, the pillar came down and it was like, literally coming down on my head.

01:12:20:23 - 01:12:30:25
Phil
It would have fucking killed me. And it was so funny because in the moment I was just like, so casual. I was like talking to another guy and I just like, saw and I just, like stepped to the side and just like.

01:12:30:27 - 01:12:34:13
Phil
Took like lands right beside me. And I just like.

01:12:34:15 - 01:12:36:19
Phil
I don't know, maybe there's something wrong with my brain or something like.

01:12:36:19 - 01:12:37:15
Phil
That, but like, I.

01:12:37:15 - 01:12:39:00
Phil
Was talking to the guy, I was like, yeah. So anyways.

01:12:39:00 - 01:12:42:09
Phil
What were you saying? And the guy was like, he was like,

01:12:42:12 - 01:12:49:03
Phil
dude, what the fuck? Like you're like, dude, you just. I literally you were about to die. I saw this thing coming. But I think it just.

01:12:49:03 - 01:13:13:25
Phil
Like happened so fast, you know, in those moments and like, you're you're you're danger receptors don't even have time to, like, fire. You don't even know you're in danger. And then it happens so fast and you're like, oh man, that just happened, I guess. Right? Like you don't have time to process it until later. But other than that, like just going back to your question about ice climbing and daggers and pillars and things like that, like, yeah, knock on wood, I've never had any super bad experiences.

01:13:13:27 - 01:13:14:07
Phil
Is that

01:13:14:07 - 01:13:19:28
Kyle
like luck preparation? Like, what's your process in terms of, like, judging whether or not something's safe

01:13:19:28 - 01:13:20:29
Phil
Yeah, I

01:13:21:02 - 01:13:42:12
Phil
I think it's a little bit, a little bit of luck for sure. Like I'm not going to. Yeah. Downplay that, that it's not luck. I think for me with when it comes to like daggers and pillars. So daggers you're usually climbing onto from a mix section in which in, in that case like usually you have your player out of the way and then it doesn't matter if you fall or not.

01:13:42:12 - 01:14:00:08
Phil
Right? Because usually just falling on the bolt or gear and the dagger is going to go that way. And then I just don't put any gear in the dagger. Right. I just like climb up the dagger until it's like solid. And then I put a piece in. I just like, commit to, like, falling. And I guess for that, it's like you climb super carefully and like, you're not hammering into the ice, obviously.

01:14:00:08 - 01:14:02:01
Phil
So you just try and be as delicate as possible.

01:14:02:05 - 01:14:06:27
Kyle
like I've seen some people like before. They get on to it. They like kick it.

01:14:07:00 - 01:14:08:04
Phil
like

01:14:08:04 - 01:14:09:08
Kyle
like to test it in a way.

01:14:09:08 - 01:14:09:15
Phil
I.

01:14:09:15 - 01:14:15:26
Phil
Know I won't know. I just look at it and kind of. Yeah, I'd be worried if you kick it, it would then come down and then, you.

01:14:15:27 - 01:14:16:14
Phil
Know, it depends.

01:14:16:17 - 01:14:17:03
Kyle
point, right?

01:14:17:03 - 01:14:17:25
Phil
It depends like.

01:14:17:26 - 01:14:20:20
Kyle
sustain a certain level of impact that I might generate

01:14:20:20 - 01:14:21:24
Phil
Yeah.

01:14:21:27 - 01:14:23:29
Kyle
like, it's like a I've seen some people test it that

01:14:23:29 - 01:14:24:11
Phil
I mean I would.

01:14:24:11 - 01:14:37:06
Phil
Kick it if it's a, it was like I needed to clear some to get on to the other dagger for example, like there's a small one and then a big one, I would like kick the small one out of the way and, you know, get on to the big one. But then just in terms of like pillars.

01:14:37:06 - 01:14:53:04
Phil
So pillars are different pillars. You need to like suss them out and look like happy days, for example. That was like a pillar that went up and you just like, look at it. You're just like, you know, visually inspect it, look at it, you know, see what it is, see if it's a detach, where is it attached? You know, it's a bonnet up there.

01:14:53:05 - 01:15:09:17
Phil
How's the weather? Is it warm? Is a cold. You know, if it's really if there's been a cold snap, they're like fragile. They can break. So kind of like, just look at all those variables. And it might just be like intuition after you vise climb for a certain amount of years. But with daggers. Yeah. You can just like look at them, you determine like, can I put screws in this dagger or not.

01:15:09:17 - 01:15:33:11
Phil
And if I can put screws great. Okay, cool. And then I'll put some screws in. But if I can't put screws in then I go into this, basically like a framework that I have for climbing, whether it's rock or ice, where I'm like, okay, do I continue to go? And usually my, methodology for like determining whether or not I should continue on in those situations is can I comfortably down climb this?

01:15:33:18 - 01:15:54:15
Phil
So I never put myself in a situation where I don't think I could reverse all the moves to get there. Right. So I'm not usually one to just like push past like, oh, I just have to make one hard move and then like, I'm good. You know, I'm usually not one to do that. I usually will like look at the situation and I just like do one move, do another move to another move to another move.

01:15:54:18 - 01:16:13:06
Phil
And I can keep going up the pillar. And as long as I'm still comfortable with every move that I've done in like a down climb in reverse, all those moves, then I can continue. But if I get to some point where, for whatever reason, I can't put any gear in and I don't think that I could down climb the move, that's usually when I stop and I'll just down climb and be like, nope, it's just not.

01:16:13:06 - 01:16:30:01
Phil
And I'll be the first one to admit, like, I bail off lots of stuff. And I've definitely, like, build less in my later years as I've gathered more experience, I've gotten stronger. But in my early years, yeah, for sure. I bailed on tons of stuff. Dude, I just think, no, I'm not feeling this. It's not something about is, you know, sussing.

01:16:30:01 - 01:16:30:26
Phil
Me out and.

01:16:30:29 - 01:16:34:15
Phil
I don't want to continue up. I don't think I could reverse the move, so I'm just going to bail.

01:16:34:18 - 01:16:43:01
Kyle
That's cool. That's a it's good to to be transparent about that. And I think yeah I mean ice climbing the whole thing is like don't fall, don't fall, don't fall. It's like

01:16:43:03 - 01:16:43:12
Phil
yeah,

01:16:43:17 - 01:16:55:05
Kyle
yeah. I mean I climb trad with like like a soloist mentality in a way where I try to, like, make moves that are, I guess, not reversible, but like, I don't feel like I'm going to come off.

01:16:55:05 - 01:17:03:17
Kyle
I'm not like, out of balance. It's like everything's focused and like, I don't want to try to make sure I'm as secure as possible, and it seems like it's just required. And ice climbing.

01:17:03:19 - 01:17:11:10
Phil
Yeah, I think that probably that probably comes just from your accident though, with tried climbing with the nut. And that's why you treat it like a solo mentality for sure.

01:17:11:12 - 01:17:11:16
Phil
For

01:17:11:19 - 01:17:17:24
Kyle
Like a to me, like in that situation, I thought I was completely safe.

01:17:17:27 - 01:17:27:28
Kyle
And I just, I missed something. Obviously I wasn't experienced, but it just like opened my eyes to like how random chaos is in the mountains and like, you don't know what you don't know.

01:17:28:01 - 01:17:30:03
Kyle
how do you mitigate risk that you're unaware of?

01:17:30:06 - 01:17:35:13
Kyle
And so it's like I just to me, falling is the most dangerous thing you can do in climbing.

01:17:35:16 - 01:17:36:26
Phil
And repelling.

01:17:36:28 - 01:17:38:05
Phil
Yeah, I get.

01:17:38:05 - 01:17:39:04
Phil
Stressed under pals more.

01:17:39:04 - 01:17:40:25
Phil
Than I get stressed on leading.

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01:18:42:00 - 01:18:45:00
Kyle
I want to talk specifically about your eight two poly

01:18:45:00 - 01:18:47:09
Phil
Oh, yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah,

01:18:47:12 - 01:18:53:16
Kyle
one, how it happened. And then how did you recover from it? Because it's like, such a it's such a

01:18:53:19 - 01:18:54:00
Phil
common

01:18:54:03 - 01:18:58:18
Kyle
com I don't know, it's a common. I don't know if that many people are having poly injuries,

01:18:58:20 - 01:18:59:23
Phil
a lot though.

01:18:59:23 - 01:19:01:20
Kyle
but it's like it's the thing we all fear.

01:19:01:26 - 01:19:09:21
Kyle
Right. Especially if it hasn't happened to you. It's like, I don't want that to happen. You know, so yeah, talk to me about your experience with that and how you recovered.

01:19:09:24 - 01:19:09:28
Kyle
I

01:19:09:28 - 01:19:13:09
Phil
I have really good news for everyone. If you're not an idiot, you will.

01:19:13:09 - 01:19:16:25
Phil
Not fully rate,

01:19:16:27 - 01:19:30:13
Phil
So how I did it due to, like, actually, how I did it is just because I'm an idiot. Like, I'm not joking with that. My buddy came over to do a photoshoot, and, he's, like, also a climber, but just doing, like, a photoshoot for business, like, get a bunch of things. So he came over and we just, you know, we went for a walk.

01:19:30:13 - 01:19:41:06
Phil
We did some, you know, in a park, whatever we did in the house, on the couch, blah, blah, blah, all these different shots. And then he's like, oh, let's go. And I have a moon bar in my garage. So he's like, oh, let's go, let's go to the moon board. And I'm like, oh shit. So he's like, oh, okay.

01:19:41:13 - 01:19:45:00
Phil
He's like, put your shoes on. You know, like you're putting your shoes on. I'm like, okay, sounds good.

01:19:45:00 - 01:19:48:15
Phil
So I put my shoes on and he's like, oh, okay, cool.

01:19:48:15 - 01:19:50:20
Phil
Now, like, put some chalk on your hands, like you're about to climb.

01:19:50:21 - 01:19:55:03
Phil
Like, oh, okay. Sounds good. Hahahahaha. And so then he's like, okay, cool.

01:19:55:03 - 01:20:10:09
Phil
I got some great shots there. And then I'm like standing there in my garage, it's cold. It's like minus five in the garage, you know? And I'm standing there with my shoes on and chalk on my hands and I'm like, right in front of my mood board. So obviously I'm like, oh, maybe.

01:20:10:09 - 01:20:12:20
Phil
I'll just do.

01:20:12:22 - 01:20:28:17
Phil
And so then I'm just like, no warm up, no nothing. I'm just an idiot. Like, I wasn't lying about that. And I just like, got in this. And then of course, is like, you know, you want to send because he's, he's like, oh, cool. And then he's like taking photos. It's like, oh, I want to send. So I just like I just cranked super hard, didn't warm up.

01:20:28:17 - 01:20:42:09
Phil
It was cold outside was minus five. And immediately I could like feel it like I actually came down. And it's funny actually, because I came down, I was like, oh, what the fuck? Like something happened. And then like, he was still snapping photos. And so then he sent me the photo. He's like, I have the moment.

01:20:42:11 - 01:20:44:22
Phil
I, I literally have the.

01:20:44:22 - 01:20:56:27
Phil
Moment where you realize that you told your ad to you. And I was like, yeah, I'm an idiot. And it's funny, actually, I think it's like 98% healed. But even now, like this morning I woke up. I climbed the last two days in a row and I could feel like it's just.

01:20:56:27 - 01:20:58:07
Phil
A little.

01:20:58:09 - 01:21:16:13
Phil
Sore. It's a little stiff. You can kind of feel it a little bit. But recovery was interesting and I'll share this like I actually want to share this with, with everyone because it like, really helped me. First of all, while I didn't do anything, I think it was like six weeks that went by and I was like, I was taping it and I was still climbing, but I wasn't doing like really crampy.

01:21:16:13 - 01:21:30:04
Phil
Like half crimp was really hard. I did a lot of recovery with like a kettlebell and like the hand block or whatever. So I do like open hand. I would do half cramp, but I was doing like nothing like 35 pounds. It's like the max I could do.

01:21:30:06 - 01:21:31:27
Kyle
is how long after you the

01:21:31:29 - 01:21:32:14
Phil
But a month,

01:21:32:15 - 01:21:32:26
Kyle
A month,

01:21:32:26 - 01:21:46:15
Phil
but a month after I think I took two weeks like completely off. And I just, like, lifted weights and and, yeah, actually, at the time, I got, like, this is, you know, one of the things about having something else in your life besides climbing because I was like super depressed. I was like, oh my God.

01:21:46:15 - 01:22:02:24
Phil
Like, what am I going to do now? Like, I can't climb. And that's actually when I started the 75 day challenge, and I got everyone together because I knew that I wouldn't be able to, like, motivate myself on my own without climbing. So I was like, I need to get a group together. So then for the first little while, I was just like doing weights, which I hate doing weights.

01:22:02:24 - 01:22:02:28
Phil
Do you.

01:22:02:28 - 01:22:03:27
Phil
Like weight? I, I.

01:22:03:27 - 01:22:17:21
Phil
Hate lifting weights, dude. I know, like it's good for you to like, do all those other muscle groups like you should train your agnostic? Is it agnostics? Agnostic? No. Not agnostic. What's the word I'm looking for? Interior. That's like the opposite. What's the opposite muscle? What's it called?

01:22:17:23 - 01:22:18:15
Phil
Oh.

01:22:18:18 - 01:22:19:14
Phil
Yeah. You know what I'm talking about,

01:22:19:16 - 01:22:20:00
Kyle
antagonistic.

01:22:20:03 - 01:22:32:07
Phil
Antagonist. Thank you. Antagonist muscle. Like you should do push ups, and you should do, like, all the other things. You should strengthen your shoulders. And I do it, but I hate I hate doing it like I'd rather just climb. Like I just want to climb all the time. But I know it's good for you.

01:22:32:07 - 01:22:48:28
Phil
So I was doing all that. And then about a month in, I got two weeks, and I started doing, like, climbing in a month, and I started to do more. Just, like, no cramps, just like jogs. A lot of endurance climbing. And then six weeks, it was probably like, I would say like 20% healed after six weeks.

01:22:48:28 - 01:23:03:18
Phil
And then that was at the time when I started to talk to, like, a lot of people, and they were like, oh man, I did, you know, peptides. I did BPC 157 and TB 500, and it drastically helped me. And I was like, you know, okay, sure, it's worth a shot. So I ordered, I ordered that combo.

01:23:03:18 - 01:23:13:27
Phil
So it's BPC 157 and TB 500 and you just it's called like a subcutaneous needle. So it's just like a little tiny little thing. And I like, got the little water and I mixed.

01:23:13:27 - 01:23:15:24
Phil
It all up. And I did the thing and I.

01:23:15:24 - 01:23:26:12
Phil
Bought all the needles and I, like, went to the pharmacy and like the I was like, yeah, I will take 20 needles. And he's like, what kind of needles? I'm like, the little kind that you, the penicillin needles.

01:23:26:14 - 01:23:28:01
Phil
I've got no idea.

01:23:28:04 - 01:23:28:14
Kyle
needles.

01:23:28:14 - 01:23:28:26
Phil
Insulin.

01:23:28:29 - 01:23:33:09
Phil
Oh, that's what the insulin needles. So I got those. He probably thought I was a drug addict.

01:23:33:09 - 01:23:34:23
Phil
Or something like that.

01:23:34:25 - 01:23:51:07
Phil
But then. But then. Yeah. So I did that over the first bottle was like 20 days, and I went from 20% healed to, like, 70% healed in 20 days, like it was. It was massive. And all of a sudden it was like, oh, I can I can cramp again, I can climb again. That was really good.

01:23:51:07 - 01:24:11:12
Phil
And it was so good that I was like, oh, I'm going to do a second bottle. So then I bought a second bottle and did another 20 days. But that 20 days was, I would say, went from 70% like 80%. So it wasn't as drastic of a recovery. So I think it's like the initial like first period that really is the most beneficial.

01:24:11:12 - 01:24:33:00
Phil
So I think if you did it, just do like just do one. I think it's like diminishing returns after one. But yeah, that went great man. I did that, kept training, started hanging more and again started, moon boarding again. And now I'm like fully back in it, like cramping, like open cramp, half cramp. Yeah. Moon boarding, everything that's like, pretty much healed now at this point.

01:24:33:02 - 01:24:37:03
Phil
Oh. It's been a while now. It's probably been it was in like November, October, November.

01:24:37:03 - 01:24:40:17
Phil
So what does that five months. Yeah.

01:24:40:24 - 01:24:42:12
Kyle
It's crazy how long those things take to

01:24:42:15 - 01:24:55:02
Phil
I think a while. Yeah. It's such a small little thing. It's it's like a small little tendon. There's not a, there's very little there's not a lot of blood that goes into your hands. So it just takes so long. So like my recommendation is like don't be an idiot.

01:24:55:02 - 01:24:56:21
Phil
And like yeah, like don't.

01:24:56:26 - 01:25:06:00
Phil
Don't do it because it I think it's gonna like affect me for probably like a long time. Just like, chalk it up to like another injury that I have, which sucks your finger. Now do it. What's that?

01:25:06:04 - 01:25:06:18
Phil
Oh, I.

01:25:06:24 - 01:25:08:25
Phil
I, I did when I,

01:25:08:28 - 01:25:27:26
Phil
when I first, when I first did it. Yeah I did and then I would also take like the buddy finger as well. But then I was doing like a bunch of reading that, like you want to tape it for the first little lot to stabilize it, but then once you want to get it, once you want the healing to like, accelerate, you want to untap it because then you're putting more stress on it, which is good for recovery.

01:25:27:29 - 01:25:44:24
Kyle
Yeah, yeah. I have I have a funny story. It wasn't living in Colorado like first couple of years outdoor climbing. I it was cold night. I met this guy. The climbing Jim was doing a woofer course. We're like, let's go to the climbing gym, let's go bouldering. And like I get to the gym and I'm like, young self trying to fucking show off.

01:25:44:24 - 01:25:46:26
Kyle
And I'm like, I'm going to start with this 11.

01:25:46:26 - 01:25:47:02
Kyle
B

01:25:47:03 - 01:25:48:20
Phil
Yeah, yeah.

01:25:48:27 - 01:25:53:25
Kyle
Literally like the start hold is like a rail, a crimp rail. And you have to like pull up on it

01:25:53:25 - 01:25:55:06
Phil
it. Yeah.

01:25:55:08 - 01:25:58:13
Kyle
both at the same fucking time.

01:25:58:15 - 01:25:59:12
Phil
Both day twos.

01:25:59:19 - 01:25:59:29
Kyle
snap.

01:26:00:01 - 01:26:01:18
Phil
No fingers.

01:26:01:21 - 01:26:04:23
Phil
You never told me this. Are you serious? How long ago was this?

01:26:04:23 - 01:26:07:11
Kyle
was so long ago. Like eight, nine years ago.

01:26:07:14 - 01:26:09:19
Phil
Oh, dude. I

01:26:09:19 - 01:26:17:28
Kyle
didn't know what it was. I didn't know what the the injury was. And so, like, I just felt it snap. And I was like, oh, that's weird. Finish the

01:26:18:01 - 01:26:27:22
Kyle
Finish the pitch. Like, climb the whole thing on site. And I get down and I'm like, oh man, I got I kind of hurts, you know, I think I climbed another route afterwards still.

01:26:27:24 - 01:26:40:27
Kyle
And, finally after that, I was like, okay, this is like kind of painful. I should probably stop and like, I stopped and dude, the worst on my right finger was so bad. It was like, probably like almost a full rupture. And my left is pretty rough. And that thing, it took so long

01:26:40:27 - 01:26:41:19
Phil


01:26:41:19 - 01:26:42:21
Kyle
was out for the whole

01:26:42:24 - 01:26:43:26
Phil
winter. Like, God,

01:26:43:29 - 01:26:45:12
Kyle
really bad.

01:26:45:14 - 01:26:46:17
Phil
That's really bad.

01:26:46:18 - 01:26:54:07
Kyle
Luckily the healed. But yeah, taping it was really critical. I didn't really have any training protocol back then. Didn't know about peptides or anything, so I just kind of raw dogged it.

01:26:54:10 - 01:26:56:26
Phil
So how, like, how long after you

01:26:56:26 - 01:26:58:20
Kyle
probably like six, 6 or 6 months or so

01:26:58:20 - 01:27:00:04
Phil
Oh, that's not too bad.

01:27:00:07 - 01:27:01:23
Kyle
It was nice. I mean, I was young

01:27:01:25 - 01:27:02:03
Phil
How do you.

01:27:02:03 - 01:27:03:09
Phil
Feel? Yeah, I guess, yeah.

01:27:03:09 - 01:27:04:15
Phil
Yeah, yeah.

01:27:04:19 - 01:27:25:27
Kyle
did. The next close call I had was in Reno, after my injury. So after I took a bunch of time off, I started getting back into the gym again and climbing, and I remember going for this hold, and, a foot slipped while I was on a cramp, and I felt like the feeling. And I instantly let go of the wall instead of fighting it and like, trying to save it, I just let go.

01:27:26:00 - 01:27:33:14
Kyle
And then I stopped climbing the rest of the day. And because I knew what it was, I felt it, like start to tear. Like you could feel the fibers start

01:27:33:14 - 01:27:35:07
Phil
Oh

01:27:35:09 - 01:27:36:25
Kyle
apart, and you're just like, no,

01:27:36:29 - 01:27:38:07
Phil
no.

01:27:38:10 - 01:27:39:21
Kyle
And then I recover from that one in like, two

01:27:39:26 - 01:27:40:02
Phil
weeks.

01:27:40:04 - 01:27:41:07
Phil
Nice.

01:27:41:10 - 01:27:42:01
Phil
Wow. And

01:27:42:01 - 01:28:02:19
Kyle
so that one and I started taping that one up again to, But yeah, I also found out the reason why I was, like, stressing my ring finger so much as I was over pronated my hands when I crimped, instead of rotating this way and putting like pressure on the index and middle, I was rotating out and favoring the outsides of my hands for some reason.

01:28:02:22 - 01:28:03:25
Kyle
And so I was overloading

01:28:03:25 - 01:28:04:23
Phil
did you find that out?

01:28:04:28 - 01:28:07:22
Kyle
I just and self on analyzation. Like I was just like

01:28:07:25 - 01:28:10:27
Phil
how do how.

01:28:11:00 - 01:28:11:26
Phil
But how did you know that was.

01:28:11:26 - 01:28:13:02
Phil
Wrong?

01:28:13:04 - 01:28:20:25
Kyle
I just it makes sense. Like, why am I pulling my fucking ring finger? Like, why is this the finger that keeps getting fucked up? It's because I was over protecting.

01:28:21:00 - 01:28:21:09
Phil
I would.

01:28:21:09 - 01:28:24:13
Phil
Not have the context or ability to, like.

01:28:24:17 - 01:28:27:18
Phil
Think that I'm different. How do you figure that out?

01:28:27:18 - 01:28:28:06
Phil
Actually,

01:28:28:11 - 01:28:28:26
Kyle
self analyzation

01:28:29:02 - 01:28:30:22
Phil
that's insane.

01:28:30:25 - 01:28:32:20
Phil
Because you you think about it, you'd be like.

01:28:32:22 - 01:28:36:07
Phil
You like, I grab the hold and I pull up, and then I get to the top of the Clinton. So it makes sense.

01:28:36:07 - 01:28:38:02
Phil
Like, would.

01:28:38:05 - 01:28:40:10
Kyle
Know, I like I analyze my movement pretty heavily,

01:28:40:15 - 01:28:41:23
Phil
Oh God, I

01:28:41:26 - 01:28:51:26
Kyle
I make all the, the, the Instagram videos too. And so not only do I climb a lot, but I watch myself climb a lot. And then after I make the videos, I shamelessly watch the videos.

01:28:51:26 - 01:28:52:07
Phil
Yeah,

01:28:52:09 - 01:28:53:27
Kyle
Like I'm probably my biggest viewer

01:28:53:29 - 01:28:56:00
Phil
Yeah.

01:28:56:02 - 01:28:59:18
Kyle
and like it sounds, it sounds self-absorbed and kind of

01:28:59:18 - 01:29:01:06
Phil
No, no no no, it doesn't how it sounds over it. No.

01:29:01:06 - 01:29:01:13
Phil
Yes.

01:29:01:16 - 01:29:01:25
Kyle
but

01:29:01:28 - 01:29:03:14
Phil
it's like you just watching training feedback.

01:29:03:16 - 01:29:04:26
Kyle
it's like I've I've been

01:29:04:26 - 01:29:06:05
Phil
Olympic people do that all the time.

01:29:06:05 - 01:29:12:21
Kyle
realizing this more and more recently, like how beneficial watching my own videos of my own climbing has been for my climbing,

01:29:12:26 - 01:29:14:14
Phil
Interesting

01:29:14:17 - 01:29:16:25
Kyle
that much like you like compared to some

01:29:16:29 - 01:29:17:08
Phil
well, no.

01:29:17:08 - 01:29:19:23
Phil
You don't climb that very at all. Just on weekends.

01:29:19:23 - 01:29:23:12
Phil
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:29:23:15 - 01:29:25:05
Kyle
I like, spend weekends climbing.

01:29:25:05 - 01:29:26:20
Phil
That's it. Yeah. You just a weekend where.

01:29:26:20 - 01:29:27:13
Phil
It's crazy

01:29:27:14 - 01:29:28:18
Kyle
able to like,

01:29:28:21 - 01:29:31:15
Phil
And you don't even train during the week. So crazy.

01:29:31:17 - 01:29:36:10
Kyle
board. Like I would say, my strength is technique.

01:29:36:13 - 01:29:37:08
Kyle
Yeah.

01:29:37:10 - 01:29:51:28
Kyle
And I've derived a lot of that through self finalization of my own movement through climbing. And then on top of that, as a sense of familiarization. And so like, I'll get to the base of the climb and I don't have to shake off the cobwebs. I don't have to shake off that, like get into my lead head.

01:29:51:28 - 01:30:07:10
Kyle
I don't need to like go through some sort of transitionary period because I'm so I've been climbing all week in my head because I'm watching these moves and I'm watching myself place gear and I'm analyzing the movement. And so it's fresh in my mind and I can apply it to real

01:30:07:12 - 01:30:07:18
Phil
life.

01:30:07:19 - 01:30:24:15
Phil
Yeah, that's so interesting. I don't feel like I would have the context to like, yeah, maybe if I did watch, like more videos of myself climbing, I could be able to get that. But like where you would put your like, oh yeah, I'm cranking this way versus this way. I would never be able to identify that. That's wild.

01:30:24:16 - 01:30:30:14
Phil
Good for you, man. That's that's crazy. Yeah. The fact just like one little side note, the fact that you climb as hard as you do and you don't.

01:30:30:14 - 01:30:34:01
Phil
Train at all like you only live.

01:30:34:01 - 01:30:35:19
Phil
On weekends, is a wild man.

01:30:35:19 - 01:30:35:23
Phil
I

01:30:35:26 - 01:30:59:08
Kyle
also lean into my own strength. Right. Like, I can't sport climb like, over if it starts to go overhanging at all. I'm a terrible climber. And so it's like I'm very much technique heavy, which means I rely heavily on footwork. I love stemming. I love corner climbing. Cracks are my specialty because you can get constrictions and so you're hanging on the bones rather than relying on strength.

01:30:59:10 - 01:31:09:16
Kyle
And so, like, obviously I'm fit, but, like, I'm not, like, I trained a lot. I could, like, be a way better climber.

01:31:09:18 - 01:31:10:02
Phil
The way that.

01:31:10:02 - 01:31:10:12
Phil
I

01:31:10:16 - 01:31:21:20
Kyle
use so many excuses, so I, I don't train. It's it's my next goal is like to try to find some space in my life to actually dedicate some time to training, because I know I need to, but yeah,

01:31:21:23 - 01:31:37:24
Phil
I think the like. So for me, what? Because I'm like very busy as well. And I think one of the things that's really helped is like having things in the house, because then it's like you don't have an excuse. You're like, it's in the evening. You know, I can crank out 30 minutes or 40 minutes. You can do something.

01:31:38:01 - 01:31:50:29
Phil
I like having the mood board in the house because then you have to drive anywhere. I'm the moon bird in the house. And like, even the hang bird man, like, if you just. And Max hangs twice a week and you did that. And that takes like 12 minutes or 15 minutes, right? You do like, do a quick warm up.

01:31:51:04 - 01:32:02:20
Phil
Just do. Max hangs twice per week in six months. So now you'd be like, Holy crap, I'm hanging on like a 20 mil edge for like 10s with whatever 50 pounds. You're like, okay, I could crank this 13 move.

01:32:02:23 - 01:32:05:09
Kyle
yeah. No, I mean, if I'm being honest with myself, it's

01:32:05:09 - 01:32:11:22
Phil
It's just like, yeah, yeah. No, dude, that's totally there.

01:32:11:25 - 01:32:13:02
Kyle
drink a cup water

01:32:13:05 - 01:32:13:27
Phil
Yeah.

01:32:14:00 - 01:32:14:22
Kyle
do I hit the hang

01:32:14:25 - 01:32:17:24
Phil
Dude, you love drinking? Yeah.

01:32:17:26 - 01:32:18:13
Phil
I do too.

01:32:18:13 - 01:32:20:16
Phil
But.

01:32:20:18 - 01:32:25:09
Phil
I limit it. I usually limit it, like during training cycles. And then when I go on vacation, I go heavy on it.

01:32:25:12 - 01:32:27:05
Kyle
Yeah. That's that's a lesson I need to learn.

01:32:27:10 - 01:32:27:14
Phil
Yeah.

01:32:27:16 - 01:32:29:28
Phil
You don't have to learn it. Yeah, I have to.

01:32:29:28 - 01:32:30:13
Phil
Be trying to

01:32:30:13 - 01:32:36:07
Kyle
learn that lesson. I have like a calendar on the board. And like whenever we don't drink, we'll color in a square.

01:32:36:11 - 01:32:37:27
Phil
Oh, good. Oh, good.

01:32:38:00 - 01:32:38:03
Phil
But

01:32:38:08 - 01:32:41:29
Kyle
you can go through the year and look or like, oh, well, not a lot of squares in

01:32:41:29 - 01:32:43:08
Phil
really

01:32:43:10 - 01:32:44:02
Kyle
squares in January.

01:32:44:03 - 01:32:44:27
Phil
Interesting.

01:32:45:03 - 01:32:46:28
Kyle
I don't binge drink. I'm not like an

01:32:47:01 - 01:32:49:26
Phil
you're just consistent with it though, you're disciplined. So you.

01:32:49:26 - 01:32:52:27
Phil
Do have discipline and

01:32:52:27 - 01:33:02:08
Kyle
it's, like, I'll have, a drink with dinner or, you know, like, I'll have, drink after climbing, like, I don't know.

01:33:02:10 - 01:33:06:19
Phil
dude. Drinking. I like yeah, I did, I love I'll be honest, I love.

01:33:06:19 - 01:33:10:08
Phil
Drinking, I love drinking. There's there's so many.

01:33:10:08 - 01:33:26:28
Phil
Like, social aspects to it, to like, one of my favorite things is just like making dinner and crushing a bottle of wine. One of my favorite things to do, it's like, let's get home, let's crack a bottle of wine, let's make some steak and potatoes and asparagus, everything. That's like one of my most favorite things to do. So it'll end like beers after our climb is awesome.

01:33:27:01 - 01:33:28:09
Phil
You had a bad day. Whiskey.

01:33:28:09 - 01:33:32:21
Phil
That's awesome. You had a good day. Cocktails. That's awesome.

01:33:32:24 - 01:33:35:06
Kyle
yeah, it's a crutch, but I don't know.

01:33:35:12 - 01:33:35:20
Phil
you have.

01:33:35:22 - 01:33:39:21
Phil
You also have to enjoy life. Dude, it's not all about, like, cranking hard

01:33:39:21 - 01:33:55:17
Kyle
balance. But I say for me, the biggest concern is just like with the consistency. Like what long term health effects are like waiting for me down the line. But then, like, my parents were, my parents are the same way. They're like, you know, bottle of wine at dinner, like, go out, you know, drink.

01:33:55:17 - 01:34:00:18
Kyle
They were drinkers. But like, I don't like the word functional alcoholic

01:34:00:20 - 01:34:01:03
Phil
know,

01:34:01:05 - 01:34:03:19
Kyle
like, some people could call me an alcoholic,

01:34:03:25 - 01:34:04:10
Phil
you're not.

01:34:04:10 - 01:34:12:09
Kyle
for sure, but I don't feel like I feel like an alcoholic is someone who lets alcohol negatively impact their life. Like

01:34:12:16 - 01:34:14:00
Phil
Yeah, yeah,

01:34:14:04 - 01:34:17:05
Kyle
I don't, I mean, maybe you can

01:34:17:07 - 01:34:25:09
Phil
AJ actually Kyle actually. Hang on. Wait for it. There's actually going to be a couple of people that we're doing an intervention. They're coming in any second.

01:34:25:11 - 01:34:28:08
Phil
Like my, my kid I think

01:34:28:08 - 01:34:29:09
Kyle
else that I'm trying to accomplish.

01:34:29:09 - 01:34:47:12
Phil
I think that's probably like the key point is like, do you let alcohol affect other areas of your life versus supplement your life? And I feel like alcohol supplements my life, and it doesn't detract from my life. Like it's never been like a, you know, I've never had any conversation. Philip, you need to step drinking. You drink. You know what I mean?

01:34:47:14 - 01:35:04:13
Phil
And also just with like, how, active we are and athletic we are, I feel like we burn a lot of that off. I feel like we don't get a lot of, like, the obesity health effects that come with drinking alcohol and also being obese. I know, who knows. I'm not a fucking doctor. Dude, I could be totally wrong.

01:35:04:13 - 01:35:04:21
Phil
But

01:35:04:28 - 01:35:21:10
Kyle
the one thing that, that's great about this whole tier two journey that I've been on is that I do blood work, and so I like, I get thyroid, liver enzymes like kidney function. Like I have markers that I'm tracking. And so far everything is normal. So it's like

01:35:21:16 - 01:35:24:15
Phil
Dude, just keep going, bro. Hahahahahahaha.

01:35:24:18 - 01:35:24:26
Phil
No,

01:35:25:02 - 01:35:46:27
Kyle
it's a balance for me. Like, I, I am so fucking busy. Like I don't have any downtime. I wake up, I answer emails, and I work, I go to work and I work all day. I come home and I'm either like meal prepping or I'm working on the podcast or whatever, like, and that's my fucking week. And then then on top of that, it's like, oh, surprise trip, we're going down to Imperial to shoot this video.

01:35:47:03 - 01:36:00:22
Kyle
Oh, surprise! I have fucking six people I'm interviewing this week because everybody's in town. It's like, that shit is just like, it happens all year. And so like the the drinking is like a way for me to, like, force my body to decompress

01:36:00:24 - 01:36:02:04
Phil
Totally.

01:36:02:07 - 01:36:03:10
Kyle
parasympathetic a little bit.

01:36:03:10 - 01:36:05:01
Phil
bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And

01:36:05:01 - 01:36:07:15
Kyle
I think that's like one of the main functions I use it for is

01:36:07:19 - 01:36:09:02
Phil
Dude. For sure.

01:36:09:04 - 01:36:25:16
Phil
Yeah. You need it like you need, you need to strike some balance in life. It can all be like, yeah, there needs to be. And I think it's I think what you're doing, you're doing it in a healthy way where it's like you're not bingeing on something. I think that's like a bad thing. Yeah, I think that's something that, that I need to work on is like having more of a can.

01:36:25:17 - 01:36:47:01
Phil
And I think I'm getting better now, but I probably see you might do it with alcohol. I do with food. Right. So I have a really unhealthy relationship with food where I will go in like, like long periods of like extreme consistency, like I eat the exact same thing. Like when I did 75 hard, for example, it was the exact same thing every single day for 75 days.

01:36:47:04 - 01:36:58:29
Phil
Like literally down to the tee. Things measured out everything and I got like super clean, dude. I got down to like 152 pounds and which were for me is like, that was my ideal weight. And it's so funny. I like struggled so hard to get there.

01:36:59:03 - 01:37:09:00
Phil
As soon as it was off, soon as 75 hard was done. I'm like, fuck yeah, I'm throwing a party. We're eating cheese and looking at me and like, immediately.

01:37:09:02 - 01:37:29:05
Phil
Not immediately, but like within the two months since I finished 75 carb, I'm back exactly where I was before, which is 162 pounds, a 10 pounds heavier. And I have like a really unhealthy relationship between like, can I just function normally and like have a nice meal, have a good dinner and not just like restrict binge, restrict binge.

01:37:29:10 - 01:37:45:05
Phil
So I think what you've done with alcohol is like, yeah, you just have like a little bit, you know, every night or every other night versus the alternative to that. Well, I guess was to all times never drink at all, which like we're not going to do that obviously, or like binge like restrict, binge restrict, which I think is super unhealthy.

01:37:45:05 - 01:37:52:05
Phil
I think if I could have your relationship to go with alcohol, with food, I'd probably be in a much better position in my life.

01:37:52:08 - 01:37:55:15
Kyle
Yeah, that's a tough we all have like these battles that we that we

01:37:55:15 - 01:37:55:23
Phil
have.

01:37:55:23 - 01:37:57:26
Phil
We we all have our vices, dude. Yeah, some people.

01:37:57:26 - 01:38:06:19
Kyle
don't have any. Like my buddy Bryce. Dude doesn't drink, doesn't smoke weed, doesn't know nicotine. No. Like nothing. Like he's just fucking

01:38:06:19 - 01:38:07:14
Phil
He's just a good guy.

01:38:07:17 - 01:38:10:10
Phil
He's just a good guy.

01:38:10:13 - 01:38:20:05
Kyle
And, Yeah, it's just so interesting. I mean, he has his own stuff he deals with, but, like, just like we all do. But yeah, some people it's just like. Yeah. So it's just like dry. It's like, all right, cool.

01:38:20:12 - 01:38:36:28
Phil
I think that's probably like besides obviously climbing, which is like, you know, a healthy vice to have. I think for me, I don't have a vice with like alcohol or anything like that. I think it is just food. Like, that's like when I get there's some people look at that, get stressed, and when they're stressed they don't eat right.

01:38:36:28 - 01:38:37:23
Phil
And I like I envy.

01:38:37:23 - 01:38:39:12
Phil
Those people.

01:38:39:14 - 01:38:55:16
Phil
Because when I get stressed, like my go to is like, oh, I had a really shitty day. So I'm just going to like, go in, fucking order a bunch of like McDonald's and fucking Wendy's or something like that, and just like, sit on the couch and I'm like, put a Netflix on. I had a super shitty day and I'm like, not going to work out and I'm just going to eat fucking French fries and.

01:38:55:16 - 01:38:58:03
Phil
Burgers and milkshakes. Like, that's my vice.

01:38:58:03 - 01:39:11:15
Phil
I don't drink like when I don't drink to like, no, no, not really. No, no, I don't drink when I'm in a negative I eat when I'm in a negative. Yeah. So it's just like, that's my vice. Like when I have shitty days and I'm stressed, I reach.

01:39:11:17 - 01:39:13:29
Phil
I reach for the Uber app. But Uber Eats.

01:39:13:29 - 01:39:14:07
Kyle
Uber.

01:39:14:07 - 01:39:14:16
Kyle
Eats.

01:39:14:16 - 01:39:17:08
Phil
Yeah, Uber Eats and I get my service McDonald's.

01:39:17:11 - 01:39:24:19
Phil
Which I don't know which word I'd rather we'd rather reach for the bike. But the thing is, if I reach to the bottle, then I get hungry. And I'm also sad. I probably just eat as well. Yeah, I.

01:39:24:19 - 01:39:25:16
Phil
Probably is devoured.

01:39:25:22 - 01:39:31:15
Phil
So luckily I usually, yeah, when I'm like having a shitty day and I'm stressed, I reach. Yeah, I only go to the.

01:39:31:15 - 01:39:31:28
Phil
Food.

01:39:32:01 - 01:39:38:00
Phil
But it's super unhealthy, dude, because I'm like, you know. Yeah, it's like you're you're crushing fast food and shitty food.

01:39:38:03 - 01:39:39:06
Phil
Alcohol every time. Yeah.

01:39:39:07 - 01:39:40:20
Phil
Good for you, dude. Yeah, I don't know.

01:39:40:26 - 01:39:41:03
Phil
I don't.

01:39:41:03 - 01:39:41:28
Phil
Know which one's worse.

01:39:42:04 - 01:39:42:23
Kyle
I don't know.

01:39:42:23 - 01:39:44:17
Phil
Yeah, but it's,

01:39:44:19 - 01:39:58:06
Kyle
It's funny what you say about the eats, like, you know, we all daily. Not all of us. A large part, like, segment of the population is dealing with, like, social media addiction and, like. So, I mean, I'm guilty of it because I have to fucking be on my phone to do the job that I do.

01:39:58:09 - 01:40:14:00
Kyle
And, it's about I have this app on my phone called Stay Free, and it's like an app restriction. And so I'll turn off social media. I'll turn off these apps during the day so I can't access them. Which is funny, if you had that for Uber

01:40:14:03 - 01:40:14:23
Phil
What did

01:40:14:25 - 01:40:15:01
Kyle
just.

01:40:15:01 - 01:40:19:11
Kyle
Like, you're just like habitually grabbing the phone and clicking Uber Eats and it's like locked. You're like.

01:40:19:13 - 01:40:20:03
Phil
It's even.

01:40:20:06 - 01:40:26:15
Phil
Dude, it's even worse than that. So, like, I delete it, I delete it, or I delete the app off my phone.

01:40:26:15 - 01:40:31:11
Phil
I'm like, you don't need this in your fucking life. You're better than this. You're better than this. Literally. Just the other.

01:40:31:11 - 01:40:32:23
Phil
Night before I came here.

01:40:32:25 - 01:40:34:07
Phil
This is how bad it is, okay?

01:40:34:13 - 01:40:46:07
Phil
I literally was like I was having a shitty night. Super stressed at work. Like lot of shit was happening. I downloaded the app, I started the order, I got to the checkout page and it was like burgers, fries.

01:40:46:09 - 01:40:50:03
Phil
Milkshake, ice cream, just like a bunch of garbage. Okay.

01:40:50:05 - 01:41:01:04
Phil
Got to the checkout screen, looked at it. I'm like, what are you doing? Fill. Get your shit together. Deleted the app. Okay. Again. Reinstalled it 20 minutes late.

01:41:01:07 - 01:41:08:16
Phil
I got all the way back to the checkout page again. Added everything for the second time that night and I'm looking at all I have to do.

01:41:08:16 - 01:41:09:17
Phil
Is press the button.

01:41:09:20 - 01:41:20:26
Phil
And I'm like, Philip, God damn it, get your shit together. Deleted it a second time for the night. Didn't order it. So yeah, proud of myself. Did I feel like do it? It's so dumb.

01:41:20:28 - 01:41:29:04
Phil
It's like I don't have any addictions really in my life. Except for just ordering junk food on UberEats when I'm feeling shitty.

01:41:29:06 - 01:41:29:11
Phil
So

01:41:29:13 - 01:41:38:01
Kyle
interesting how? Like that. We were talking about the mind and the heart. Like it. So interesting how we have those like deep cravings sometimes, and it's almost like someone else is pulling the machine.

01:41:38:06 - 01:41:38:22
Phil
Yeah,

01:41:38:27 - 01:41:43:02
Kyle
just like, like you're like, you snap out of it for a second, what are we doing? And you're like, yeah, we're doing it.

01:41:43:08 - 01:41:44:28
Phil
Yeah,

01:41:45:00 - 01:41:45:09
Kyle
Yeah.

01:41:45:11 - 01:41:48:11
Kyle
Because it's funny, when you make that decision to lean into it, you don't give a fuck. You're

01:41:48:11 - 01:41:50:04
Phil
You just you're like, fuck it. I don't give a fuck.

01:41:50:04 - 01:41:50:20
Kyle
yeah, dude, we're

01:41:50:24 - 01:41:52:26
Phil
yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:41:52:26 - 01:41:53:15
Phil
I would upsize.

01:41:53:15 - 01:41:55:23
Phil
This fucking burger.

01:41:55:26 - 01:41:56:05
Kyle
Yeah.

01:41:56:05 - 01:41:57:00
Kyle
Supersize me.

01:41:57:00 - 01:41:57:11
Kyle
Baby.

01:41:57:17 - 01:42:00:05
Phil
so dumb, so dumb. Dude.

01:42:00:08 - 01:42:05:17
Kyle
Talk to me about the difference between courage and recklessness in the mountains.

01:42:05:19 - 01:42:15:07
Phil
I'm sure they'd be lots of people that argue. I'm fucking on that line. I mean, I'd like to think that I'm less reckless than I am courageous.

01:42:15:11 - 01:42:16:24
Kyle
difference between the two?

01:42:16:27 - 01:42:17:27
Phil


01:42:18:04 - 01:42:19:18
Kyle
wise. Like if you were to try to define

01:42:19:18 - 01:42:20:20
Phil
If I had to define it.

01:42:20:26 - 01:42:23:28
Phil
And this would just be for myself, I think. And obviously.

01:42:24:01 - 01:42:25:06
Phil
You.

01:42:25:08 - 01:42:49:00
Phil
Like, I have a biased point of view and you don't know what you don't know. But I think for me, the difference between like, courage and recklessness would be, you know, if you're in a situation, in a situation where it's like scary and, you know, it's run out or for whatever reason, or you have to push past, you're in a situation where, like, if something happens, it's going to be really, really bad, but you're still in control and you push through.

01:42:49:02 - 01:43:14:26
Phil
I think that's courageous. I think it's like you knew you could do the move. You knew you could get to the other side. You just had to, like, get everything together and make a few moves and get to safety. And you just had to push past this. But if something did happen, it would be like catastrophically bad versus I think reckless would be like, you're in a similar situation and you're like 5050 and you're like, I don't know if I can make this move.

01:43:14:28 - 01:43:29:22
Phil
If I do this, it might be, you know, and like, I might fall. It's 5050. I'm going to try for the move. And if I fall, you know, the example that comes to mind, actually, if you've read, like, Leo's book when he's talking about what's the route that he put up, not the Phoenix, but, I can't remember.

01:43:29:22 - 01:43:49:27
Phil
He put up like a 13 a hour on Leo holding. Oh, he put up this like 13 hour on, in Yosemite. I camera was called, not the Phoenix called something else, I can't remember, but it's like a pretty. It looks like a, like a gnarly row. But he talks about, like, there's one move that he did where his, like, bilayer was on, like, just a shitty fucking piton or something like that.

01:43:50:02 - 01:44:09:21
Phil
And he had to do this one hard move any like fully committed to it. And then you like thought and he's like, oh, if I fall, we are both dead. We are both dead. I think that's because he was like unsure if he was going to stick it or not. It was just like blind recklessness versus courage. So I would say, like, that's probably the line for me.

01:44:09:21 - 01:44:16:08
Phil
Like if you're in a situation where you're like pretty confident you can make the move consciously.

01:44:16:10 - 01:44:17:17
Phil
Yeah.

01:44:17:20 - 01:44:21:22
Phil
Yeah. Versus like reckless is like you're 5050. You're like, I might make it might not.

01:44:21:26 - 01:44:23:10
Kyle
recklessness would be conscious of

01:44:23:13 - 01:44:24:04
Phil
Yeah, yeah.

01:44:24:07 - 01:44:29:11
Kyle
Whereas courage is like I know the risks, but I know I can commit the move.

01:44:29:14 - 01:44:32:15
Kyle
I can commit. I can do what's required of me.

01:44:32:17 - 01:44:46:14
Kyle
For me, I've thought about this. And for me, the difference is recklessness is taking on risks that you're unaware of. And courage is knowing the risks in totality and then executing what's required to get through that, that risk.

01:44:46:17 - 01:44:54:15
Kyle
I think recklessness is like you. You are putting yourselves in these situations and you're just fucking unaware of the danger that you're actually in

01:44:54:18 - 01:44:56:29
Kyle
and you're going and doing these things anyway.

01:44:57:02 - 01:45:12:21
Phil
Yeah. Reckless and naive. Yeah. And that is like I mean, again, I just you, you're in a stage where you're like, you don't know what you don't know. You know, I've been in so many situations, like early on when I was just, like, naive and had no idea what I was doing, that in retrospect, I'm like, looking back, I'm like, you are such an idiot.

01:45:12:21 - 01:45:31:24
Phil
Like, here's a perfect example. We went to go do this was like, I don't know, six years ago or something like that. And this guy that I was talking to, he's like, hey, we should go climb Porsche left and yeah, I'll be waiting for that day was high, high, high, which is like basically don't go right. And there's a huge RV zone above Bordeaux left.

01:45:31:26 - 01:45:51:09
Phil
And, he's like, we should go climb this climb. Let me tell you why I think we should go climb it, because an abbey ripped from there just a day ago, so it's cleared out. There's probably nothing above it. And I was like, sure, that sounds good. Like I trusted him. He had a little bit more experience. It sounded like rational thinking.

01:45:51:11 - 01:46:00:20
Phil
We went, climbed it, we got off. Nothing happened. Luckily, knock on wood. And then I made a post about it. It was like, yeah, we climbed Bordeaux, left and we got absolutely, like.

01:46:00:27 - 01:46:03:10
Phil
Shredded on the.

01:46:03:10 - 01:46:21:11
Phil
Facebook page with like good merit. And then I was like reading all the comments after and I was like, oh my God, we are such idiots, right? And then after the fact, I've thought about that over the last couple years. Like, what was I thinking? Like, what was I doing up there? There's days when I might not even go up there.

01:46:21:13 - 01:46:37:21
Phil
If it's like low, low, low, just because it, like, gets blasted with sun. Yeah. And there's a huge slope up there. So it's just like, was I reckless in in that scenario? I think I was more naive than reckless. I think I just like did it. No, I think I was just like, I don't know what you would call that like an idiot.

01:46:37:21 - 01:46:39:20
Phil
I'm like,

01:46:39:23 - 01:46:43:10
Kyle
it's funny, like recklessness is almost determined in retrospect.

01:46:43:13 - 01:46:48:02
Kyle
It's like you have to look back on it and realize like that you were being reckless.

01:46:48:04 - 01:47:02:13
Kyle
I guess I can't, I can't relate to, like, blatantly putting myself in tremendous danger on purpose. Like, for example, like, do I make this move and I make it and I survive and I make it and I

01:47:02:15 - 01:47:02:27
Phil
I kind.

01:47:02:27 - 01:47:03:00
Phil
Of

01:47:03:03 - 01:47:06:15
Kyle
die like, I don't think I've ever put myself in that situation.

01:47:06:17 - 01:47:14:21
Kyle
Or have you, have you come across a situation where you're like, if I don't make it, I die, and then you back off?

01:47:14:23 - 01:47:15:24
Phil
And then I back off.

01:47:15:24 - 01:47:16:27
Kyle
Or choose to go forward.

01:47:16:29 - 01:47:28:21
Phil
Or just go for it. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I mean, just two weeks ago, I guess on soccer, like, on the crux of it, it's like it's kind of like overhanging and like chandelier. And I was like, oh, this is like real climbing.

01:47:28:24 - 01:47:29:11
Kyle
you were soloing.

01:47:29:11 - 01:47:35:10
Phil
Yeah. And even in that moment, I was like, oh, it should, I, should I keep going or should I not?

01:47:35:12 - 01:47:38:28
Kyle
But your confidence in your movement was starting to question it. Get questioned.

01:47:39:01 - 01:47:56:07
Phil
Yeah. I was like, dude, yeah. There's like a pretty real crux. Like for sure. It was like definitely like like oh yeah. This is like real climbing now. Like 100m off the deck. And it was. Yeah, it's definitely one of those scenarios. And you had like, there was some like snow, you kind of had to hook, you know, and some like, like aerated ice.

01:47:56:07 - 01:48:13:15
Phil
You kind of had like hook to get up it. So it wasn't like wasn't like, oh, this is absolutely 100% bomber. It was kind of like, okay, I think this is pretty good. But you don't, you know, you're not 100% you're like back down to let's say, you know, 90%, for example. Right? You're like, this is probably, you know, 95% or something like that.

01:48:13:15 - 01:48:32:13
Phil
You're like, this is absolutely probably good, but you're not at that like 100% ratio. You know, where where usually you're sitting, you know, so there is that like margin where like I'm pretty sure. But there's a small possibility that it's still there. And then you still need to like actively think about it and be like, oh, do I do I move forward and do I go through it?

01:48:32:20 - 01:48:34:03
Phil
Yeah.

01:48:34:05 - 01:48:44:03
Kyle
Yeah. That's well, I think that's probably the situation. A soloist runs into quite often. I don't do much soloing. So yeah, to have that real, real consequence

01:48:44:05 - 01:48:44:18
Phil
Yeah.

01:48:44:25 - 01:48:46:05
Kyle
you fuck up you die. It's

01:48:46:05 - 01:48:46:23
Phil
Yeah. Like,

01:48:46:25 - 01:48:51:19
Kyle
oh, you fuck up and I'm going to take a scary whip and hopefully my gear holds. It's like, no, no, no, you die.

01:48:51:21 - 01:48:52:09
Phil
Yeah.

01:48:52:16 - 01:48:53:05
Kyle
pretty.

01:48:53:08 - 01:48:54:07
Phil
It's not, it's.

01:48:54:07 - 01:49:13:00
Phil
Not like a I don't love being there like too often you know like usually. Yeah. Like usually when I, when I solo I want to like feel I want to feel 100% right. Like I want to feel like I'm just having fun. Like I'm just, like, cruising around, you know, having fun in the mountains, you know, having to like that spiritual bucket, you know, being filled.

01:49:13:02 - 01:49:31:03
Phil
I don't love being in like that. Like I want to be in 100% the whole time. Like, that's, like fun, fun time for me, you know? But, yeah, sometimes, you know, it goes down to that, like 95. In order to get back to the spot where it's 100, you got to kind of push through that 95. So you get into like a few of those circumstances, but more or less.

01:49:31:03 - 01:49:47:01
Phil
And, you know, maybe for me, I could just, you know, that's more experience. The mountains, more sprints, ice climbing, getting stronger, getting more fit. And then I could bring that 95 to 100, potentially, but then there's also the variability of the ice, which, you know, could be good, could be bad. So maybe there's, you know, no matter how fit or strong or confident

01:49:47:05 - 01:49:49:06
Phil
I am, there's always going to be a little

01:49:49:10 - 01:49:50:03
Phil
percentage there.

01:49:50:10 - 01:49:57:11
Phil
But but no, ideally I just want to cruise around the mountains, have fun. Like that's like that's a spiritual bucket for me. I don't want to be like cranking hard.

01:49:57:12 - 01:50:02:23
Phil
50, 50 minutes without it realm. Like, that's not what I want to do. That's not super fun. Like.

01:50:02:25 - 01:50:04:20
Phil
Yeah, it's not what I want to be doing.

01:50:04:22 - 01:50:26:07
Kyle
Let's be real for a second. The blueprint for a successful climbing podcast is simple. Interview the most famous climbers in the world. Big names mean big followings. Lots of SEO power and a built in audience that helps promote every episode. But this show, this show has never been about that. From the beginning, it has been my mission to bring you stories from the climbing majority.

01:50:26:07 - 01:50:45:04
Kyle
The climbers who don't live in the limelight, the ones who quietly put up roots, build communities and help give back in ways that are rarely recognized. And while that's what makes this show special, it also means we have an uphill battle when it comes to growth. And that is where you come in. If you believe in the show, if you've been fired up, inspired by an episode.

01:50:45:06 - 01:51:06:14
Kyle
Word of Mouth is the single most powerful way to help the show share an episode with a friend. Post about us on social media. Jump on to Reddit threads and Mountain project forums and tell people what you've been listening to. Also, I am on a mission to beat Climbing Gold Spotify review account. If you haven't already left the show a review, please head on over to Spotify to give this show five stars.

01:51:06:15 - 01:51:08:18
Kyle
We only have 1000 more ratings to go.

01:51:08:24 - 01:51:10:27
Kyle
you, do you experience flow state?

01:51:10:29 - 01:51:11:24
Phil
Yeah. Yeah,

01:51:12:01 - 01:51:12:04
Phil
for.

01:51:12:04 - 01:51:12:23
Phil
Sure. All the

01:51:12:29 - 01:51:13:18
Phil
time.

01:51:13:21 - 01:51:25:04
Kyle
you, and, like, like, how quickly can you access it? Like, is there a, like, a buffer to turn it on? Do you have rituals to try to get yourself there?

01:51:25:07 - 01:51:25:16
Phil
Yeah.

01:51:25:16 - 01:51:41:16
Phil
That's a that's a good question. I feel like I only became aware of flow state, maybe like, I don't know, 5 or 6 years ago. And I think, you know, we had a conversation up. I kind of knew of it a little bit. You know, people had talked about it. But I think that was like the time that I directly related it to climbing.

01:51:41:21 - 01:51:48:24
Phil
And it was when I climbed a climb called Rainbow Serpent, and it was like maybe my second year of ice climbing or something like that. And it's like a hard six.

01:51:48:24 - 01:51:49:25
Phil
And me.

01:51:49:28 - 01:51:51:15
Phil
Me and my friend went out there and like.

01:51:51:21 - 01:51:52:16
Phil
We went out there the.

01:51:52:16 - 01:52:07:19
Phil
First time and like, you have to climb one long pitch of before and you get to this amphitheater and then there's two pitches of six and it's like pretty real. And we got there the first time and like we looked at it and we like tried to go up a little bit. We hummed and hard and came down and went back up and came down.

01:52:07:19 - 01:52:08:03
Phil
And we're just like.

01:52:08:10 - 01:52:11:07
Phil
No, I'm not leading it. Are you leading it? No, I'm not leading it.

01:52:11:07 - 01:52:15:04
Phil
We backed off and laughed, and then we came back like, literally.

01:52:15:04 - 01:52:15:25
Phil
It's so funny.

01:52:16:00 - 01:52:18:23
Phil
Literally, as we're driving out, I'm like, we have to come back.

01:52:18:23 - 01:52:28:02
Phil
And he's like, what dude? Like, you know, I'm just like, we have to know we can do it, man. We just got to like, get our get our headspace together. We can do it. You know, the problem was, is.

01:52:28:02 - 01:52:30:01
Phil
No one agreed to what pitch they were going to do. We need to just.

01:52:30:01 - 01:52:33:27
Phil
Settle in the pitch. You do P1 erupt you. That's how it's going to be.

01:52:33:27 - 01:52:51:09
Phil
We just need to commit to it and then we came back the second time and luckily the second time there was some other climbers that caught up to us and they were like some crasher European climbers, like some savages, like they walked up everything and then just like left. They did. They did fearful as well. Fearful symmetry was in that that year, which is also there.

01:52:51:13 - 01:52:56:12
Phil
And I think having them there kind of gave us that little like, you can't just like get.

01:52:56:12 - 01:53:02:26
Phil
Up there and have you like, actually I'm kind of scared. Never mind. We're gonna leave. Can you drop a rope down?

01:53:03:04 - 01:53:23:02
Phil
So I think having them there was, like, really good. But it was like, way at our limit, like, way, way, way out over our limit, probably for sure. Over our limit. And, heated P1. And then P2 was like the kind of, like hard crux C1, you know, six or whatever. And I mean, it's just like overhang in I'm going like section after section.

01:53:23:05 - 01:53:35:02
Phil
And I just like I lost track of time, like totally lost track. I was just like in doing one move after another after another move and the other the Europeans, like, they climb the route next to me and they came on this when it climb, this would end.

01:53:35:07 - 01:53:36:22
Phil
Up down the time they did.

01:53:36:22 - 01:53:54:20
Phil
Like they were just like crushers, right? But for me, I think it took me like a long time to leave that pitch because I was like fighting front this like over my limit. And, but I like lost all sense of like time and everything. And I was just like, so into it, I was dialed in. I was just like, taking it one step at a time and moving forward.

01:53:54:26 - 01:54:08:10
Phil
And then we talked about it after on the drive home, and I was like, yeah, man, I just like, how long was I up there? And he's like, oh, you're there for like an hour. And I was like, dude, it felt like ten minutes. Like I was just like locked in. So that was the first time I like really related it to climbing.

01:54:08:13 - 01:54:25:19
Phil
But now, like, getting into it. I feel like I have, like, now even, like, I thought about it yesterday. Right. Like, even that little five eight like you did the first five eight pitch, right? And I was like, at the bottom, I'm faffing, I'm laughing, I'm joking about, and I put my shoes on and did it on.

01:54:25:19 - 01:54:48:05
Phil
How do I put my gloves on? I feel like at this point now I have the ability to just like as soon as I leave the ground, I can flip a switch and I'm just dialed and I don't know how you learn that or what you do. I think, like, I think there's something to do with, like focusing so intently on your movement puts you in that state.

01:54:48:07 - 01:55:07:21
Phil
And so it's like as soon as it's like maybe there's some like little rituals, you know, that you do like chalking up, for example, you know, or for ice climbing. I'll like, do like shoulder rotations. I'm like flapping my arms like this. But actually someone else said that as well. This is like, years ago I went to go climb, hydrophobia.

01:55:07:27 - 01:55:23:07
Phil
And I had two friends there the whole time was laughing and faffing and having a good time and like, it's all good and you're putting the screws on. Were all laughing. And then it was like, as soon as we got to the base of the climb, like, all of a sudden, like my mood just like shifted. And it was like, Kate, you're locked in.

01:55:23:07 - 01:55:29:10
Phil
Kate. Tied rope. Kate. Boom! Done. Kate go by. And the guy commented after he was like, dude, he's like, what the fuck?

01:55:29:10 - 01:55:36:26
Phil
Just he's like, he's like, bro, you went from like a six year old child laughing on the walk in to like, a grown man, like laser.

01:55:36:26 - 01:55:50:29
Phil
Focused on something. So it's just like a I feel like now at this point, maybe I just trained it or maybe it's happened naturally. I'm not sure, but it's just like a switch. And it just did flips and I get on and it just like immediately it gets there.

01:55:51:01 - 01:55:51:08
Phil
Yeah,

01:55:51:14 - 01:55:54:19
Kyle
I'm similar. I can, I can turn it on really quick.

01:55:54:22 - 01:56:03:10
Kyle
I had like, earlier stages of my climbing when I was doing try to like these multi pitch lines where I was breaking my limit. I were like blackout.

01:56:03:13 - 01:56:04:19
Phil
Yeah. Yeah.

01:56:04:21 - 01:56:08:29
Kyle
like get through a crux and then get to the anchor on like like something like, hey, how'd you get through that? I'm like.

01:56:09:05 - 01:56:11:20
Phil
I don't even know.

01:56:11:22 - 01:56:12:13
Phil
I.

01:56:12:16 - 01:56:21:23
Kyle
don't remember like you're so present and so intensely focused that your brain doesn't fucking have time to, like, batch it into its memory.

01:56:21:27 - 01:56:23:00
Phil
Totally. I don't

01:56:23:05 - 01:56:41:00
Kyle
experience that as often anymore, because it's like the level of novelty is so high that, like, there's that aspect to it now or back then, but now, like, yeah, I mean, as of yesterday, like the, the crux pitch that I learned on Cloud Tower, like, like, yeah, it's just like you fucking just lock in, there's something there.

01:56:41:00 - 01:56:53:26
Kyle
And then once you get into that movement and everything, it's just like time disappears and you're just so absorbed by everything. I think for me, the more data I have to process, the better flow state I get into.

01:56:53:26 - 01:56:54:03
Phil
Yeah.

01:56:54:09 - 01:56:59:05
Kyle
like that's why I love trad so much, because it's like you're not just climbing, it's the gear, it's the position.

01:56:59:05 - 01:57:12:17
Kyle
It's like, do I the risk management? It's like your brain is just fucking churning through all these fucking circumstances and projection models and like trying to process all this data. And it's just like you have no time to think about anything else. Like,

01:57:12:20 - 01:57:19:05
Kyle
and I think that it being able to access that kind of flow state quickly is such a super power in climbing.

01:57:19:07 - 01:57:21:21
Kyle
Like.

01:57:21:24 - 01:57:45:00
Kyle
How much how better to complete a task than having full fucking attention on it. Like that's how you do things well and I translates to work for work flow. Like the ability to keep yourself from being distracted. And I think that also too, like back to this whole thing where we're constantly distracted with social media and with ads and like life, it's all very chaotic.

01:57:45:02 - 01:57:53:02
Kyle
Climbing gives you. It's like manufacturing that environment to just be present. Again. You don't have a choice. I love it so.

01:57:53:05 - 01:58:07:02
Phil
And I think like just expand on that a little bit just with like flow saying, I think as you progress in climbing your you get more competent, you get stronger, you get more comfortable. So you need to like access that like deep, deep, deep flow state diminishes.

01:58:07:05 - 01:58:12:10
Phil
Right. Like you can kind of walk up like, you know, some pitches of five, eight, five, nine years ago I did I did like having a fun time.

01:58:12:15 - 01:58:17:00
Phil
And you're like still talking to your player. Like even, you know, the the Tennessee pitch that I had, I was at the roof and I was.

01:58:17:02 - 01:58:21:07
Phil
Like, what do you think? Should I put the piece here or should I put it there? Should I extend there, should I do that? You know what I mean?

01:58:21:14 - 01:58:35:12
Phil
I was just like pretty comfortable in the moment. I didn't need to like access is like I am locked in, stayed. So I think that's why, you know, you keep chasing more and more because you want to access that like deep flow state where you need to access like the.

01:58:35:15 - 01:58:36:29
Phil
The deepest part of your.

01:58:36:29 - 01:58:42:03
Phil
Mind and have that pure focus where you're like, I am right at my limit. And you like block it out because you're.

01:58:42:03 - 01:58:43:24
Phil
Like, I'm right there.

01:58:44:01 - 01:58:48:12
Phil
I need to be so ultra focused on it. And like, unfortunately, yeah, the more experience you get.

01:58:48:14 - 01:58:52:25
Phil
The less you need that really deep state.

01:58:53:02 - 01:58:53:20
Phil
And you can kind of.

01:58:53:20 - 01:58:57:27
Phil
Like, yeah, I'm just cruising around having fun. I can talk to my player, take a phone call like, you know.

01:58:58:00 - 01:59:14:05
Phil
So I think you like keep kind of chasing that maybe then going back to you Nasca maybe that's like some of the reasons why I like, go back to em so much. And I love it so much because there's so many things that you need to probe. There's so many data points that like, you know, you also use like double ropes and you have all the time, right.

01:59:14:05 - 01:59:23:17
Phil
Like that's like a. Yeah. So it's like, do I put that there. Like it's like what gear do I put. Where do I put it. Do I extend it. Where do I extend it. Do I clip this one. Do I clip that one. Am I.

01:59:23:17 - 01:59:29:04
Phil
Going right. Am I going left? Is this block going to fall down on my belay? Or like there's so much data that you need to.

01:59:29:04 - 01:59:32:05
Phil
Process, which I maybe for like some people listening and probably like.

01:59:32:05 - 01:59:36:07
Phil
That sounds like a fucking nightmare. But I think for like you and me.

01:59:36:10 - 01:59:57:01
Phil
Like all those data points coming at you forces you to just like tunnel vision, narrow focus and get into that deep flow state to be like, I need to focus on that. So I think you need to as like climber as it keep progressing. You need to keep pushing this state further and further to be able to like require the need to access that deep flow state.

01:59:57:04 - 02:00:03:08
Kyle
Another type of the flow state I experienced recently, I did, what I coined. Someone's probably already done it. I just

02:00:03:08 - 02:00:03:21
Phil
go.

02:00:03:23 - 02:00:04:20
Phil
Yeah.

02:00:04:20 - 02:00:11:21
Kyle
big brownstone bash. I linked, Mr. Z to Armstrong walk down, did sweet thin walk down and then did Nightcrawler.

02:00:11:23 - 02:00:15:13
Phil
Oh, hell yeah, dude. Nice. That's amazing.

02:00:15:18 - 02:00:16:03
Phil
Cool

02:00:16:08 - 02:00:19:05
Kyle
that, the endurance flow state,

02:00:19:08 - 02:00:20:03
Phil
Yeah,

02:00:20:10 - 02:00:29:15
Kyle
I got, I got did Mr. Z did Ahmed Tron did sweet then and I was like following up the first pitch of Nightcrawler. And I remember just like busting out laughing

02:00:29:18 - 02:00:30:28
Phil
Yeah, I.

02:00:31:01 - 02:00:35:02
Kyle
pitch. I just like, dude, I feel like I'm walking down a street right now.

02:00:35:04 - 02:00:38:24
Kyle
Like it just felt like I was walking

02:00:38:27 - 02:00:39:13
Phil
Yeah.

02:00:39:19 - 02:00:40:08
Kyle
sidewalk.

02:00:40:08 - 02:00:41:03
Phil
Yeah,

02:00:41:06 - 02:00:41:24
Kyle
I.

02:00:41:26 - 02:00:42:17
Phil
yeah, I

02:00:42:20 - 02:00:57:18
Kyle
didn't feel like I was climbing anymore. Like I was so numb and so, like in that endurance flow state that like, yeah, the whole situation became a little surreal and like, my body was just kind of like, moving. And I wasn't even thinking about it.

02:00:57:18 - 02:00:58:25
Kyle
It was just like, oh, my arms are

02:00:58:28 - 02:00:59:28
Phil
moving.

02:01:00:00 - 02:01:00:08
Phil
Okay.

02:01:00:09 - 02:01:00:24
Phil
I

02:01:00:24 - 02:01:06:21
Kyle
witness the whole thing in this weird third perspective. I was just like, oh my God, this is so cool. Like, I'm so comfortable.

02:01:06:23 - 02:01:07:19
Phil
Yeah.

02:01:07:21 - 02:01:17:22
Phil
I'm sure there's probably like, because I don't do a ton of, like, I do like some trail running and things like that. But I'm sure there's a lot of like endurance, like ultra runners and endurance athletes that are like, yeah, of.

02:01:17:25 - 02:01:21:27
Phil
Course that's what happens. Why do you think we run 100 miles, you idiot?

02:01:22:00 - 02:01:37:11
Phil
But I bet you. Yeah, that's a really I never thought about that. But there's not only like the, you know, danger and and there's not, there's only that. But yeah, you can get it from endurance as well. Like just thinking when me and did Polar Circus like that was an easy climb, all things considered. But that was just like all day.

02:01:37:11 - 02:02:01:22
Phil
It was like crank, crank, crank, crank, crank that. I was also in a flow state that day. Even though it was easy climbing. It was like not rush, but like efficiency was a top priority because of the danger overhead. And then yeah, because of that, it was like everything was just like gained and ended into. I kind of had like, you know, it's not like I was walking, but it all did feel kind of just like surreal going through it and definitely a little bit of a flow statement.

02:02:01:24 - 02:02:03:19
Phil
So it's not only you don't only.

02:02:03:19 - 02:02:06:06
Phil
Have to have dangerous to to push.

02:02:06:06 - 02:02:13:21
Phil
Those flow states if with endurance. Yeah, you could you could definitely have that too. So yeah, maybe I should use more endurance. That's very sweet.

02:02:13:21 - 02:02:14:04
Phil
Yeah.

02:02:14:07 - 02:02:38:08
Kyle
thing is big. Tanner Harnish definitely inspired me a little bit with his triple and then the quad like like how much Stone can I cover in a fucking single push like that is cool. Like it's sure it's not hard. I mean like five, seven, five, nine, five, nine and then, like, you're sure we capped it with Nightcrawler, but still, like, like in, like Mr. Z by itself for me, not really something I would do.

02:02:38:11 - 02:02:41:16
Kyle
But add for other climbs at

02:02:41:16 - 02:02:42:00
Phil
hurdling

02:02:42:07 - 02:02:45:13
Kyle
and like, okay, how fast can we do it like we did Mr. Z in 30 minutes.

02:02:45:15 - 02:02:46:18
Phil
Yeah I did that's.

02:02:46:18 - 02:02:47:03
Phil
Amazing.

02:02:47:03 - 02:02:48:09
Kyle
Armstrong in one pitch.

02:02:48:14 - 02:02:48:25
Phil
Yeah.

02:02:48:25 - 02:02:51:27
Kyle
And so it's like doing that, like that, exploring that kind of realm of

02:02:52:03 - 02:02:53:04
Phil
I'm

02:02:53:07 - 02:02:56:16
Kyle
sure, you can climb 511 now, but how fast can you cover five eight?

02:02:56:23 - 02:02:57:15
Phil
a.m..

02:02:57:22 - 02:03:03:00
Kyle
seven. How much ground can you cover? How efficient are you? Like, that's a whole other realm of climbing. That's really, really fun.

02:03:03:05 - 02:03:19:04
Phil
Yeah, I've done like I've done a little bit of endurance climbing but not a ton. And I think I would. Absolutely. Yeah, I think I'm. Dude, you inspire me now I'm gonna I'm gonna go back to, to Canada. I want to find some like, link ups that I could do. I'm going to crank some, some link of some, some jam link up.

02:03:19:06 - 02:03:20:26
Phil
Yeah. Dude. Yeah. Four times in.

02:03:20:26 - 02:03:21:29
Phil
A day or something.

02:03:21:29 - 02:03:22:13
Phil
Like that.

02:03:22:13 - 02:03:22:23
Kyle
Yeah,

02:03:22:23 - 02:03:24:07
Phil
That'd be sweet, man.

02:03:24:09 - 02:03:25:22
Phil
Yeah.

02:03:25:25 - 02:03:45:18
Kyle
Let's let's pivot here. So, you know, we talked a little bit about like, diversifying, our life. Right. Like work climbing. You got to have other things. You know, how have you created a life around climbing? How, like, what is your other things? Like what's your work? How do you fund your life?

02:03:45:21 - 02:03:49:17
Kyle
Like, what's the what's the part we don't usually hear about.

02:03:49:20 - 02:04:13:19
Phil
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So for work, I've been in the insurance industry for like 11 years now, since 2014. So, like, yeah, even before I started climbing and then. So just like, regular, like, life and health insurance, just like insurance broker. And then in 2020, I guess a 2021, that's kind of when I pivoted a little bit and built, a little bit of an insurance brand around, like getting insurance for climbers.

02:04:13:19 - 02:04:30:22
Phil
So like special type of life insurance will cover climbers, accident insurance that will cover climbers. And I would say that probably makes up like 60% of that business for the insurance broker side. Which is great. I mean, it's like it's it's really fun to like, have conversations about insurance with climbers because really fun to just talk to climbers.

02:04:30:22 - 02:04:31:08
Phil
Right.

02:04:31:10 - 02:04:47:24
Phil
And I understand the language, you know, so like when, when climbers will ask me, they'll be like, well like, is this covered? And I'll be like, I can unequivocally say like, oh yes, this is covered. Here's other things it covers. I understand what you're talking about. Yes. You're talking about trad. Yeah. You're talking about traveling. You're talking about, you know, this grade, whatever it is, I understand all that.

02:04:47:26 - 02:05:04:12
Phil
And I think I just like also one like I have all the products myself and I've read to them all myself because I'm also that demographic. And then too, it's like fun to market that business because I can create climbing content and then push that business forward with climbing content. So that's been that's been a lot of fun.

02:05:04:12 - 02:05:27:04
Phil
I've done kind of more of a climber focus since about 2021. And then just to further expand, I guess, on there. So I've been in the insurance industry since 2014. In 20, I guess it was 2024. We launched like a software company that is basically a software that we licensed to other insurance brokers, and that's been probably, like a big part of my focus.

02:05:27:04 - 02:05:47:14
Phil
Now, I probably say like 80% of my focus is on building that company. So the production or just like, yeah, the insurance brokerage is a little bit taken like a back seat right now. It's still operating. We still got like, you know, tons of clients and leads come in. We're partnered with the Alpine Club of Canada, the Association of Canadian Mountain Guides, to have our mountain muskox patrol like some Canadian climbing associations.

02:05:47:16 - 02:06:14:20
Phil
So those are really good partnerships. And we, you know, we renew them every single year. They're amazing for us. But, long term, like what I think like I've been, I've been selling insurance is like 2014 and it's like, it's fine, but like, it doesn't I'm not, like, super psyched on it anymore. You know, I've been able to build a business that, you know, run affords my, my lifestyle and and while I've definitely enjoyed it, you know, and it's been great for me, I'm more enjoy like building businesses.

02:06:14:20 - 02:06:37:10
Phil
I enjoy building systems and building processes and managing teams, whereas the insurance broker is more like, you know, I do some of that, but then I am the guy that's having these conversations. I'm, you know, not really a business, but more like a, you know, personal service business. I'm more like one individual. So I've been super psyched on the, the software company because now it's like, you know, we have a vision to like, hey, how can we scale this from like, you know, we're at five employees, right now.

02:06:37:10 - 02:06:59:21
Phil
How can we scale this to ten employees and then 15 and then 50, and then how can we build this, you know, to a large company in Canada? So, yeah, I'm excited about that. I still have the the insurance brokerage. And I think long term, I really enjoy working with the climbing community. And I think, like, I am one of the only, if not the only company in Canada that, like, specializes.

02:06:59:21 - 02:07:16:15
Phil
And I don't know if even if there's one in in the USA that really is like, hey, we are the insurance brokerage for climbers. I'm not really sure if there is one. But yeah, there's very few people that, like are as knowledgeable about both aspects as I am, like climbing and.

02:07:16:15 - 02:07:17:16
Phil
Insurance.

02:07:17:18 - 02:07:37:28
Phil
Right? So I think I have like a unique perspective that I can bring and also a lot of expertise to it. And I think it's like super important for climbers to get insurance, especially if you have like if you have families, if you're married, if you have kids, like the the amount of times that I like run into situations where I like, talk to like, listen, dude, if you're a single guy living in a van and you're like, no responsibilities.

02:07:37:28 - 02:07:52:18
Phil
And it's like, you know, not saying if you passed away, nothing can happen. Obviously there's like the emotional impact. Like, you know, financially, your mom and dad are gonna be fine, you know what I mean? But if you're married and you have fucking kids and this happens like I get, people come to me and they're like, married with kids.

02:07:52:18 - 02:08:04:01
Phil
And they've been like, rock climbing and ice climbing and alpine climbing, and they don't have insurance. And it was like, what the fuck are you doing? Right? Like, dude, you have a family like, and you're the breadwinner in the family. Like if you pass away, which is a.

02:08:04:01 - 02:08:05:07
Phil
Real possibility.

02:08:05:14 - 02:08:26:13
Phil
That can happen. One of the most like chilling stories that and like, what can you do like this is just is what it is. But one of the most chilling stories that I had. So I paid out claims on the insurance side. Unfortunately, like I have had clients pass away from climbing accidents, but I remember I had one guy come to me and he came to me is like, hey, can I get a quote for insurance?

02:08:26:13 - 02:08:40:04
Phil
And I'm like, yep, it's going to be whatever, 80 bucks a month or something like that. And he was like, so it's a little bit pricey. I don't think I can afford it. And I was like, okay, I'm not here to convince you one way or the other. Like, I'm not the type of salesman that's like.

02:08:40:11 - 02:08:41:29
Phil
Well, actually, you need to be like, I'm just.

02:08:41:29 - 02:08:50:22
Phil
Not that guy. You know? I'm more like, well, here's your options. You can take any of these or leave them, like, I'm not going to I'm not going to hard sell you like, you know, this in the States is Canada right.

02:08:50:27 - 02:08:53:23
Phil
We're nice down there. We don't care.

02:08:53:25 - 02:09:13:03
Phil
Anyways, they came to me any any like looked at the options, determined that it was too expensive for him for whatever reason he had. He was married with a newborn. I want to say daughter. Okay. And and he was a guide, you know, in the community. And it was like three months later. And he was in Nepal and avalanche came down to kill him.

02:09:13:05 - 02:09:34:01
Phil
He's dead. And I remember like seeing that and being like, wait a second, that name looks familiar. And then I look back, you know, in my in my file. And I was like, oh yeah, I had a conversation with him three months ago and, and then and then I saw like, you know, his, his wife like, tried to get a GoFundMe me together for like 25 grand or something like that, just to help out.

02:09:34:05 - 02:09:52:06
Phil
Now she's got to like take care of the her daughter, you know, for for the ride for like next 18 or 20 years like she she's not really working like I don't know what they're going to do. Right. So it's just like you see those situations and you're just like, what are you fucking doing? Right? Like, think of it like, don't think about it for one second.

02:09:52:06 - 02:10:05:04
Phil
You know, you know, we want to think that nothing bad is going to happen to us, but it's a very real possibility that something bad can happen in the mountains. And you need to be prepared one way or the other.

02:10:05:07 - 02:10:08:05
Kyle
Yeah, yeah. Not only just for yourself, but for your

02:10:08:05 - 02:10:08:20
Phil
your family.

02:10:08:22 - 02:10:09:17
Phil
Yeah.

02:10:09:20 - 02:10:21:25
Phil
I always this is like a little bit morbid and I hope it's okay that I share, but I always like I feel like if I'm going to die in the mountains, it would be like something where I like, have time to think about it, you know, like, that's just like.

02:10:21:25 - 02:10:22:02
Kyle
you.

02:10:22:02 - 02:10:22:19
Kyle
Want to think

02:10:22:19 - 02:10:24:08
Phil
No, no, no no no no no no no.

02:10:24:08 - 02:10:26:27
Phil
Like I feel like it wouldn't be instant, right?

02:10:27:01 - 02:10:28:01
Kyle
But you're saying if

02:10:28:02 - 02:10:29:13
Phil
If I died in the mountains.

02:10:29:20 - 02:10:31:00
Kyle
probably going to have time to think

02:10:31:00 - 02:10:52:16
Phil
I'm probably gonna have time to think about it. Maybe I would like fall. And, you know, I'd be dying in, like, a crevasse or something like that. Or I'd be like, broken femur or something like that, where I'm, like, dying. But I have time to think about it. And I think for me, like, because I actually brought a whole bunch of life insurance myself and like, I have financial responsibilities and people that rely on money rely upon me.

02:10:52:18 - 02:11:10:09
Phil
And so for me, it was just like the thought was like, well, if I die, like if something happened in the mountains and I was just like, you know, whatever, lying on the glacier, knowing that I was going to die and I had time to think about it, at least I'd be like, okay, I'm not leaving a huge I have a little bit of peace about it.

02:11:10:09 - 02:11:13:01
Phil
Like I'm not leaving a huge fucking mess behind for my family.

02:11:13:02 - 02:11:14:15
Phil
Obviously the songs that I like.

02:11:14:15 - 02:11:21:26
Phil
Don't want to, but I think of that, like I think about it like that would be just like a little bit of peace that I could have, you know, as I'm dying.

02:11:21:29 - 02:11:22:03
Phil
The

02:11:22:03 - 02:11:24:26
Kyle
people that supported me, like, a huge amount of cash.

02:11:24:29 - 02:11:40:08
Phil
Yeah. And like, they'll be able to figure out all like the financial things, the funeral arrangements, like everything. It's all covered. Right. So then they can like process grieving and not process like okay, how the how are we going to deal with all this money situation. How are we going to figure out, you know, x, y and Z.

02:11:40:14 - 02:11:49:17
Phil
So it's just like allows them to be able to grieve without an additional stress upon their life. So that's the way that I think about it. Yeah. I don't know. I it's a little bit more.

02:11:49:17 - 02:11:50:16
Phil
Of it obviously, but.

02:11:50:16 - 02:11:51:18
Phil
It's a morbid industry.

02:11:51:23 - 02:12:04:06
Kyle
well, it's a morbid industry, but I think it's important to be honest with ourselves about the fact that we could die in the mountains. Like, I think it's too easy to just be like, oh, it'll never happen. Yeah. Like,

02:12:04:09 - 02:12:10:20
Kyle
I think taking the time to actually, like, process your own mortality and like be real about that is important.

02:12:10:22 - 02:12:34:00
Phil
Which is a hard thing to do. Like, it's a hard I think, especially if you had like kids, I think it would be a really hard thing to accept the fact that you're still willing and choosing to put yourself in situations like I think like almost like the, the, the like getting life insurance in place is then like admitting that you are doing something slightly dangerous while you still have a family at home.

02:12:34:00 - 02:12:38:13
Phil
So it's almost like if you don't buy life insurance, you haven't admitted that you could do that.

02:12:38:13 - 02:12:39:10
Phil
You could.

02:12:39:12 - 02:12:51:20
Phil
And in which case it's totally fine, you know what I mean? So there might be something there where people are just like, well, no, it's not dangerous at all. Actually, I'm super safe and I never, you know, I don't run out anything and I don't go on. Yeah. I'm like this fucking psycho.

02:12:51:20 - 02:12:52:22
Phil
Phil, you know?

02:12:52:25 - 02:13:17:22
Phil
But, like, it's still. It happens to regular people. Yeah. Like, I mean, even in Greece, like what just happened a month ago or three weeks ago where just the bolts failed, like, it's you're putting yourself in situations where it's it's not 100%, no matter how is safe. No, only no matter if it's like only sport climbing and or you never you always put in gear like rockfall could come from above, could be environmental, could be nature, could be something with your partner.

02:13:17:22 - 02:13:24:12
Phil
Like something could happen. You could tie in wrong, right? Like even on the safest of climbs, things can still go wrong.

02:13:24:15 - 02:13:42:01
Kyle
I think it's there's this interesting psychology of where, like, I'll use a med kit as an example, bring a med kit. And now all of a sudden, you might believe that, like, things might happen, be prepared for the unexpected and the unexpected will happen. But if you're not prepared for the unexpected,

02:13:42:04 - 02:13:42:24
Phil
which is why.

02:13:42:26 - 02:13:48:00
Phil
Yeah, yeah, I don't bring a med kit like.

02:13:48:03 - 02:13:50:15
Kyle
I think you and I both like, play that line a little

02:13:50:18 - 02:13:50:21
Phil
bit.

02:13:50:26 - 02:13:51:21
Phil
For sure. We do?

02:13:51:21 - 02:13:52:02
Phil
Yeah,

02:13:52:08 - 02:14:10:27
Kyle
Think it's this. I mean, it's the same thing. It's like, it's this. I could like, translate that to, like, secure, being secured in your movement. Like, if you are in control, your movement and your control of your safety system, like, that's like your first line of defense. It's like, just don't let something fucked up happen.

02:14:11:03 - 02:14:11:26
Kyle
You know,

02:14:11:28 - 02:14:16:03
Phil
If you just never let go, you'll never.

02:14:16:05 - 02:14:17:04
Phil
Make it a

02:14:17:07 - 02:14:20:14
Kyle
of fuckery by like being.

02:14:20:17 - 02:14:22:02
Kyle
Avoiding it in the first place.

02:14:22:05 - 02:14:30:18
Kyle
Because, like, yeah, I don't know, like, I don't want to have to fucking go through a rescue. I don't want to have to fucking deal with a broken limb on the climb like I don't.

02:14:30:21 - 02:14:34:24
Kyle
I want to do everything in my power to prevent that from happening,

02:14:34:24 - 02:14:35:15
Phil
for sure,

02:14:35:18 - 02:14:41:15
Kyle
rather than, like, maybe being prepared for it to happen and then maybe being a little more relaxed or, you know, that weird

02:14:41:22 - 02:14:42:09
Phil
Yeah.

02:14:42:09 - 02:14:44:09
Phil
Something something there.

02:14:44:12 - 02:14:48:15
Kyle
you're like, yeah, okay. Like I'm prepared if it happens and then you accept it a little

02:14:48:17 - 02:14:51:22
Phil
So maybe I'm on to something with the life insurance. It's almost like if you buy.

02:14:51:22 - 02:14:55:00
Phil
It, you know.

02:14:55:02 - 02:14:59:07
Phil
You may die. If you don't buy it, you will never die.

02:14:59:09 - 02:15:02:00
Phil
I feel like he totally.

02:15:02:00 - 02:15:02:08
Phil
Dude.

02:15:02:11 - 02:15:03:09
Kyle
Yeah, the brain is a funny

02:15:03:09 - 02:15:04:23
Phil
I love that. That's hilarious.

02:15:04:28 - 02:15:26:12
Kyle
Before we get back to it, if you've been listening to the show, you probably know how much time and effort and love I put into this project. The research, the conversations, the production, the editing, all of it. And while it might seem like I've got a team of people on this project, I don't. It's just me. And even with sponsors, I spend a large amount of my own personal money on this project simply because I love it.

02:15:26:14 - 02:15:50:05
Kyle
If you are a listener that's looking for a way to give back to the show in a meaningful way. Please become a Patreon subscriber. Once you become a supporting member of the Climbing Majority, not only will you feel really good about yourself, but you'll also get access to the ad free version of the show and exclusive content. If this speaks to you, click the link in the description or go to Patreon.com Slash the Climbing Majority podcast to become a supporting member of the show today.

02:15:50:08 - 02:15:53:29
Kyle
So, like, launching

02:15:54:05 - 02:15:55:19
Phil
businesses. Yeah.

02:15:55:22 - 02:15:56:22
Phil
Or. Dude, now we're getting into it.

02:15:56:29 - 02:15:58:23
Phil
I think that, like,

02:15:58:26 - 02:16:23:05
Kyle
the, the, the cliche thing is like the concept of, like, failing to the top make mistakes. Like, if you, you know, how many successful business people have you talked to? Like, how many failed attempts have they had? Like, usually a lot. It's not like a one success kind of thing. So my, my, my pivot here is, is to talk about the word failure.

02:16:23:07 - 02:16:28:19
Kyle
Where have you, like, failed in your life? Like,

02:16:28:22 - 02:16:33:13
Kyle
like it doesn't have to be business related. It could be personal, but, like, I'll share. I'll share mine.

02:16:33:19 - 02:16:36:29
Kyle
I tried to answer this question for myself before asking you, obviously,

02:16:37:06 - 02:16:37:17
Phil
Yeah.

02:16:37:23 - 02:16:40:07
Phil
You've had time to think about it. The fucker.

02:16:40:10 - 02:16:55:21
Kyle
I don't think I've really failed that much. I, I feel like I've been lucky enough to where, like if I try something, I don't know whether it's my process and how I approach it or whether it's because the vision I have is so crystal clear, like I haven't.

02:16:55:24 - 02:17:11:05
Kyle
Or maybe I'm not taking enough risk. Like maybe I'm not putting myself in a position where failure is like that possible. And I've been playing it safe too much. But like I'd say like my basically my biggest example is like just investment. Like I have completely failed

02:17:11:08 - 02:17:15:13
Kyle
at any sort of, trading or investment, like

02:17:15:16 - 02:17:17:20
Kyle
I've done nothing but lose money.

02:17:17:23 - 02:17:31:11
Kyle
And so like, I mean, if I think of like a concrete word of failure, like I have fucking failed doing that, I've lost thousands of dollars, like just lit money on fire. And like.

02:17:31:14 - 02:17:46:08
Kyle
Yeah. I mean, it's like it's rough and, like, I, I haven't really learned too much about it because every, like, I failed once, I got burned, I was like, okay, I learned, like, now I know what not what to do. Got back in, failed again. And I was like, well, I learned another lesson. This time.

02:17:46:08 - 02:18:00:11
Kyle
It's like, cause I learned two lessons. They both cost me a bunch of money. And it's like, do I step forward again and like, go down this road again? Or it's like, oh, or do I just back off and like, maybe this isn't for me, you know, so like, that's, that's, kind of like where I had expectations of myself.

02:18:00:11 - 02:18:06:26
Kyle
I had goals that I tried to meet, and I didn't meet them, and I just fucking flat out failed and, like, had to go back to ground Zero.

02:18:06:28 - 02:18:08:23
Phil
Yeah. That's it. Yeah.

02:18:08:26 - 02:18:10:07
Phil
I mean, that's the story here

02:18:10:08 - 02:18:12:01
Phil
that I did.

02:18:12:03 - 02:18:13:15
Phil
But I think failure's it's like a.

02:18:13:15 - 02:18:39:28
Phil
Strong word, like failure. It seems like it's like, you know, I tried to, whatever. I tried to, you know, run five kilometers and I got to four kilometers and I couldn't do it anymore. And I walked off, and it's like ultimate failure, right? But it's, like, hard to define. There's been so many things that I've done in both business as well as in, you know, climbing and things that like, I don't know if you would call them failures.

02:18:39:28 - 02:18:54:00
Phil
I don't know if they're complete failures, because from each and every single one of those things, I've been able to, like, learn something from it and then move forward. And I mean, just like a small example, like, I don't know if you'd call this a failure or not, but just like a, I mean, I guess, yeah, you could call it a failure.

02:18:54:00 - 02:19:06:13
Phil
Right. But then I've like, learn from it and push past like, I don't know if I've had any like ultimate failures where it's like to the point it's like dead end of the road. Like, I think a failure to be like, yeah, you ran four kilometers and then you never ran another kilometer in.

02:19:06:13 - 02:19:10:06
Phil
Your life, like, I can't do this. Five kilometers is you. I'd like.

02:19:10:06 - 02:19:22:04
Phil
That would be an ultimate failure. But I think, you know, Yeah. Trying something, it not working out and then pivoting to something else. Would you call that a failure? I don't

02:19:22:07 - 02:19:22:19
Kyle
That's a tough

02:19:22:19 - 02:19:23:16
Phil
I don't think you would.

02:19:23:23 - 02:19:44:23
Kyle
I have this line here. It's, when you feel like you earned it, you feel like you deserve it, and you still don't get it. Like, that's like a recipe for failure. Because it's like I worked for it. I like, I did my homework, I trained, I whatever that I did to complete this goal, I feel like I deserve it, like I, I've done what I've supposed to do.

02:19:44:23 - 02:19:46:21
Kyle
I'm in the right

02:19:46:23 - 02:19:47:04
Phil
people,

02:19:47:09 - 02:19:48:24
Kyle
Whatever it is, whether

02:19:48:24 - 02:19:49:16
Phil
And it

02:19:49:18 - 02:19:50:22
Phil
doesn't work out.

02:19:50:24 - 02:19:52:01
Kyle
fucking doesn't work.

02:19:52:01 - 02:19:52:26
Phil
Yeah.

02:19:52:29 - 02:19:53:28
Kyle
that is like

02:19:54:00 - 02:19:55:13
Phil
just failure.

02:19:55:15 - 02:19:56:01
Phil
I like

02:19:56:04 - 02:19:56:14
Kyle
right?

02:19:56:21 - 02:19:57:24
Phil
what I mean.

02:19:57:26 - 02:19:58:06
Phil
Good

02:19:58:13 - 02:19:59:29
Kyle
fucking did something wrong that

02:20:00:01 - 02:20:00:23
Phil
maybe,

02:20:00:27 - 02:20:03:22
Kyle
we, you know, we weren't privy to. At least that's how I like to see it.

02:20:03:29 - 02:20:10:01
Kyle
I like to think that I'm. I'm the reason why things are good. Things, good or bad, happened to me.

02:20:10:04 - 02:20:11:08
Kyle
It's a sense of ownership.

02:20:11:13 - 02:20:19:27
Kyle
Like I don't ever, whether it's true or not, I don't ever want to just like blame circumstances either for my good fortune or my bad luck.

02:20:20:00 - 02:20:23:26
Kyle
And so failure to me is always my fault.

02:20:23:28 - 02:20:45:26
Kyle
Whether or not, like, you know. Sure. Someone was a better candidate for a job or, I don't know, you could just come up with all these different things. But in the end, in my brain, it's something you missed. It's something you didn't do, something you were blind to and just means you're not ready to be who you were trying to be, or you're not ready to achieve what you were trying to achieve.

02:20:46:03 - 02:20:46:15
Phil
I think that's.

02:20:46:22 - 02:20:50:03
Phil
Just going right. I think that's like a, it's a harsh word, like.

02:20:50:05 - 02:20:51:27
Phil
It's like it kind of seems like.

02:20:51:27 - 02:21:08:18
Phil
A a dead end to the road. I don't know if I would say that. I've, like, I've definitely not succeeded at a lot of things in life, but I feel like there's like a sense like you never you'll never fail if you don't give up or something like that. There's like a saying like that. I mean, like a perfect example.

02:21:08:18 - 02:21:21:19
Phil
And I'll just show this real quick is like my software company that I launched. So we launched we began development 2024. We launched a product in 2025 that I had invested like a ton of money into, got off the ground, did a whole bunch of marketing, did this.

02:21:21:19 - 02:21:22:14
Phil
Huge.

02:21:22:14 - 02:21:54:02
Phil
Launch, had so much interest in the beginning. And I just missed the mark. Like I didn't do enough market research. I didn't talk to enough people. I didn't think about it deeply enough. I mean, hindsight is always a perfect 2020, but our like, first version that we launched with that I thought would be applicable to like a wide audience of insurance brokers in Canada was actually only applicable for like a super, very, very narrow subset like 0.01% of the actual market.

02:21:54:04 - 02:22:12:14
Phil
And so it just flopped, right. Like I spent all this time, all this money, all of this effort, all of these meetings, everything. And it was just like imploded on itself. You know, we had a whole bunch of signups and then people canceled. They weren't using it, and it was just kind of like, oh, that was so and like, I don't even think of it as a failure.

02:22:12:15 - 02:22:17:26
Phil
I think of it like a learning experience. But you could look at that be like, no, that was a failure.

02:22:17:29 - 02:22:19:07
Phil
You spent like, how much money and.

02:22:19:07 - 02:22:44:29
Phil
You've gotten how many like, for all intents and purposes, I've lost so much money on that, right? However, from that process, I had 300 conversations with brokers and talked to a ton of them and got a lot of market feedback and figured out, okay, this product is very suitable for this one very specific subset. But now in talking with these other 300, I can see we can expand the scope just a little bit.

02:22:45:04 - 02:23:07:03
Phil
And now it's going to be applicable for this this amount. Right. So right now actually we're just in the process of like launch or developing. Pardon me what I'll call like version two of our software, which I think knock on wood is now much more applicable for a wider user base. And I guess like, you know, if that one fails as well, then, you know, maybe maybe you're right, maybe that is a total failure.

02:23:07:03 - 02:23:20:06
Phil
But I mean, I don't even look at this like, you know, first thing is a failure. It's it was just like a stepping stone, you know, it didn't get to the expectations that I thought it was going to get to. But it was a stepping stone, which is going to lead me to the next one and which hopefully will lead me to the next one.

02:23:20:06 - 02:23:31:09
Phil
And the next one is the next one. So I don't think I can't remember what your original question was, but I don't think that those would be considered failures. I think they're just stepping stones to lead you to where you're trying to get to.

02:23:31:15 - 02:23:50:02
Kyle
So this this brings up two interesting points. Like one, maybe failure is not in the eye of like yourself, but failure or failure is actually in the eye of someone viewing you like, you know, describing your situation like, oh, that's a failure. But to you it's not. So maybe it's like that third person aspect

02:23:50:05 - 02:23:58:19
Kyle
or failure is when you reach a learning experience and then choose not to learn from it and choose to quit instead.

02:23:58:21 - 02:24:00:12
Kyle
Failure is quitting.

02:24:00:14 - 02:24:21:02
Kyle
it's the end of the road. It's where you reached adversity and it's just too much for me. And I think that's why when I both of us are probably similar in this way, when we were asked the question we both like stuck for a minute. It's like, well, we haven't really failed because we've never let something like that just like, stop it in the road or we never quit, on those things.

02:24:21:05 - 02:24:23:23
Kyle
That's why I use the training example is because I just

02:24:23:25 - 02:24:25:06
Phil
Because you quit worrying

02:24:25:06 - 02:24:26:12
Kyle
I'm not about to quit. Like

02:24:26:19 - 02:24:27:23
Phil
Yeah, yeah I'm done with this.

02:24:27:26 - 02:24:36:12
Kyle
Like, I, I don't really know what the next lesson is, you know, like, and I'm not willing to, like, dedicate all this time to sit in front of the screen and try to be a better trader.

02:24:36:12 - 02:24:40:28
Kyle
It's like I failed at that, and maybe that's okay. And maybe I just don't need to be a trader.

02:24:41:01 - 02:25:07:04
Phil
Yeah, I think, like, maybe a different way you can phrase it is like you didn't fail but you quit at it. And I think like healthy quitting is important as well. So there's a really good book by Seth Godin called The Dip, and it talks about, basically like the framework for how you succeed at anything goes like and I'm going to try and draw this out, but it goes like up like this, and then it goes down into the dip and then eventually it skyrockets, right.

02:25:07:07 - 02:25:20:21
Phil
So when we first start anything new that we're doing, well, you know, whether it's anything new climbing or a business or social media or anything, it's super exciting. We're like, oh my God, I'm gonna start an Instagram page like you, for example. Look at the podcast, right? Actually, the podcast is a perfect example. I'm gonna go right into

02:25:20:26 - 02:25:21:07
Kyle
You did.

02:25:21:07 - 02:25:21:16
Kyle
This.

02:25:21:20 - 02:25:22:16
Phil
And you thought the podcast.

02:25:22:20 - 02:25:25:09
Kyle
And like if you go look at my chart, that's exactly what it did.

02:25:25:12 - 02:25:35:19
Phil
Dude. That's amazing. So okay, let me let me break into this. So this part right here is like your initial excitement. Everything is new and exciting and you're stoked. And any feedback that you get is amazing.

02:25:35:19 - 02:25:41:13
Phil
You're like one person, watch my fucking podcast, dude, I'm going to be a millionaire tomorrow. This is awesome.

02:25:41:19 - 02:25:49:09
Phil
I love this. And eventually though, all that excitement for starting something will die. And then you get into this has,

02:25:49:12 - 02:25:51:09
Phil
People die. You get in this.

02:25:51:09 - 02:26:09:20
Phil
Chasm of despair where basically you're now realizing how much work it's going to take to get to where you thought you were going to be very quickly, and you realize how much effort you need to put into it. And maybe viewership goes down. Maybe you get negative feedback. Maybe you're just like, oh my God, this is like, like very embarrassing reading.

02:26:09:20 - 02:26:26:10
Phil
I'll be like, oh, I lost money. This is like, how much to effort do I need to to put in to get to here? And most people in this dip period will quit, right? That's why, you know, even from marketing point of view, like a realtor or insurance broker or anyone, you know, that's doing a business, there are.

02:26:26:10 - 02:26:31:09
Phil
Oh yeah, I'm going to launch like, you know, how I'm going to do marketing is Instagram. You see, they start an Instagram page like I'm a.

02:26:31:09 - 02:26:34:25
Phil
Realtor now and I'm totally, here's my open house sign and digital data.

02:26:35:01 - 02:26:37:19
Phil
And then like two months will go by and their account is just

02:26:37:22 - 02:26:45:26
Phil
done right. Big excitement. They see how much work they need to put in. They quit. Right. And then of course what do they do? They go to YouTube now, they make a few YouTube videos.

02:26:45:26 - 02:26:46:21
Phil
And oh my God, this is so.

02:26:46:21 - 02:26:55:20
Phil
Exciting. And then they're back in the dip. And they most people will just bounce from one thing to another if it doesn't work, even from like a training point of view, from a climbing point of view, they're like, I'm gonna.

02:26:55:20 - 02:26:56:13
Phil
Do hang.

02:26:56:13 - 02:27:01:16
Phil
Building every single week, and that's going to be my thing. And then they do like a few weeks of hang board and they go to the gym like, oh my.

02:27:01:16 - 02:27:05:26
Phil
God, I still only climb 510. I'm not doing any hang body. This is bullshit, right?

02:27:05:29 - 02:27:26:22
Phil
But you just have to stay consistent through that dip and go into your podcast. It's like you were in that dip and you like when Max quit the show, and that was like a major period in the dip where you could have so easily shut the podcast down. You could have been like, man, where is this going? The effort to get it to where it's going to be is so much, I can do everything on my own now.

02:27:26:22 - 02:27:45:01
Phil
This is so much work. What am I doing? Why am I wasting my time? But instead you're like, no, I'm going to push through and I'm going to get to this point and I feel like you know, you're definitely at that point now and you're even now an upward trajectory. So just keeps getting better and better. But trying like realizing you're in that dip and trying to get through it can be incredibly difficult.

02:27:45:01 - 02:28:04:06
Phil
But if you get through, it's rewarding. However, one thing that I'll add here is it's okay to be in that dip and then like, realize or even before you start the journey realizing, like, I don't know if I want to go through this and continue to grind out this chasm to try and get there, maybe it's not worth it.

02:28:04:06 - 02:28:20:04
Phil
So like going back to your investing story, what would it take for you to be a successful investor? Right? Like, I don't know, watching like YouTube videos on investing three hours a night, like, do you really want to put in that effort versus like to just put it in an index fund, get happy with 8% returns and just turn your fucking brain off.

02:28:20:11 - 02:28:38:16
Phil
Right. So it's like, it's okay to be in a situation where you determine, like, okay, the effort required to get to this point up here is going to be more than I'm willing to put in. And if you're not 100% committed at being the best at it, don't even start. Don't even start like don't have acid yours. Don't waste your time.

02:28:38:16 - 02:28:43:26
Phil
Just quit. You've already committed to being the best podcaster. You don't need to be the best investor.

02:28:43:29 - 02:28:50:25
Phil
Like you should go go to wicked Wealthsimple or something like that. Put it in the ETF and turn your brain off there to.

02:28:50:25 - 02:29:05:07
Phil
Just, you know, be happy with that. And I think it's really hard for for people to like, oh, but I want to like be good at everything and try and pick the things that you want to be the best at and be the best at those and other things that are attracting and taking away from those things just quit, right?

02:29:05:07 - 02:29:06:12
Phil
And it's not a failure.

02:29:06:15 - 02:29:07:02
Phil
Healthy.

02:29:07:05 - 02:29:08:04
Phil
Healthy quitting like.

02:29:08:05 - 02:29:08:28
Phil
That.

02:29:09:01 - 02:29:13:21
Kyle
I like that it's hard. I think you're you spot on in the fact that, like, you can't do everything,

02:29:13:23 - 02:29:14:16
Phil
you know.

02:29:14:19 - 02:29:16:16
Phil
You fucking cannot.

02:29:16:18 - 02:29:16:29
Phil
Yeah.

02:29:17:01 - 02:29:19:01
Kyle
can't. You just don't have the time for it.

02:29:19:03 - 02:29:21:24
Kyle
Yeah or. Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. Yeah.

02:29:21:25 - 02:29:27:17
Kyle
We talked this a little bit on the approach yesterday. What do you think's more important, a good idea or consistency?

02:29:27:17 - 02:29:27:27
Phil
consistency?

02:29:28:00 - 02:29:31:13
Phil
Oh, yeah. Yeah, we did talk about that. And I told you the time I'll tell you again.

02:29:31:15 - 02:29:35:12
Phil
It's consistent 100% consistency. Yeah.

02:29:35:15 - 02:29:53:29
Phil
And it actually this goes like perfectly into, into the dip story, you know, into the Dip framework. Right. It's consistency that brings you out of the dip and like you're on episode 130 now or 140 of the podcast, you just keep doing it like taking Joe Rogan's podcast, for example. The first no one watched his podcast for years.

02:29:53:29 - 02:29:55:25
Phil
Dude, he was just some random anime.

02:29:55:25 - 02:29:57:03
Phil
Dude, like putting out.

02:29:57:03 - 02:30:21:23
Phil
Weird videos, but he kept put. He's on like what, 3000 now or something like that, or something ridiculous. So consistent. There's so many good ideas that fail all the time. Good ideas are a dime a dozen. But if you're consistent with anything you can do in life and you also, you know, get better and learn and adapt and evolve and perfect it, obviously that, you know, you need to do that as well, but you get that through consistency.

02:30:21:23 - 02:30:34:14
Phil
You learn that through consistency. You don't learn by just like studying how to do a pot. You can't just study how to do a podcast for years. Right. And then okay, how many likes to you have to do it. You have to remain consistent. And through that process you learn it.

02:30:34:15 - 02:30:36:23
Phil
Yeah, yeah.

02:30:36:25 - 02:30:39:22
Phil
Exactly. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah for sure.

02:30:39:22 - 02:30:40:15
Phil
Consistency. Yeah.

02:30:40:16 - 02:30:47:12
Kyle
It's interesting, I think that like, people definitely get harped on like I have to have a good idea first. I have to have a good idea first.

02:30:47:15 - 02:30:56:28
Kyle
I think the thing that you don't know is that maybe you start out with like a not so great idea, but the thing about consistency is consistency is linked to time.

02:30:57:00 - 02:31:07:14
Kyle
And so as you take consistency and apply it to a not so great idea, what is time give you time gives you the chance to change this idea

02:31:07:17 - 02:31:13:26
Kyle
and it gives you feedback on what's not working, what's not working. Like this example with your software company? Sure, like you could have had a better idea up front,

02:31:14:00 - 02:31:15:11
Phil
Yeah, yeah.

02:31:15:14 - 02:31:16:20
Kyle
how the hell are you going to know

02:31:16:22 - 02:31:17:12
Phil
Yeah.

02:31:17:15 - 02:31:17:26
Kyle
points?

02:31:17:26 - 02:31:18:13
Phil
Yeah.

02:31:18:17 - 02:31:20:02
Kyle
consistency gives you more data points

02:31:20:04 - 02:31:20:14
Phil
Yeah.

02:31:20:16 - 02:31:23:18
Kyle
allows you to be fluid with what that idea kind of is.

02:31:23:21 - 02:31:27:16
Kyle
And then you can change and you're still building this momentum with consistency.

02:31:27:19 - 02:31:34:00
Kyle
So be okay with being fluid about like what the idea actually is, but just be committed towards putting effort towards it every day.

02:31:34:02 - 02:31:44:05
Phil
And you can like hindsight is a perfect 2020 man. You you do not get those data points without actually just doing it. Like you just need to start. You you just need to like throw spaghetti at the wall.

02:31:44:08 - 02:31:45:04
Phil
You know, and see what.

02:31:45:04 - 02:31:57:07
Phil
Sticks. Like you have no idea. Like even this podcast. Like how how much have you learned by just going through the episodes like, oh my God, I can't put can't put the camera here, can't do this, can't do that. Like even this. Probably gonna learn am lighting how.

02:31:57:07 - 02:31:59:11
Phil
That affects the podcast. And now you're going to know.

02:31:59:11 - 02:32:02:16
Phil
For next time. And you would never know that if you didn't do it. So

02:32:02:20 - 02:32:05:23
Kyle
you have to be okay with not being perfect.

02:32:05:25 - 02:32:06:03
Phil
for.

02:32:06:03 - 02:32:07:20
Phil
Sure. Progress over perfection.

02:32:07:20 - 02:32:16:29
Kyle
If you watch like the development of my show. Like in the beginning, you mean you'll see the progression and that's literally just a time stamp of like where I was

02:32:17:01 - 02:32:17:22
Phil
totally.

02:32:17:27 - 02:32:18:09
Kyle
set at

02:32:18:09 - 02:32:19:00
Phil
Yeah,

02:32:19:03 - 02:32:21:28
Kyle
And you have to be okay with being public about that.

02:32:22:06 - 02:32:36:03
Kyle
Like, you be okay with where you are and just be okay knowing that you're going to make incremental improvements over time and just be self-aware enough to be honest with yourself. Like, I edit every single one of these episodes and I have to listen to myself talk

02:32:36:10 - 02:32:37:21
Phil
Yeah, yeah.

02:32:37:27 - 02:32:41:05
Kyle
And so it's like sometimes it's fucking cringe. And I was like,

02:32:41:07 - 02:32:42:13
Phil
Yeah, yeah,

02:32:42:13 - 02:32:42:19
Kyle
know.

02:32:42:19 - 02:32:42:27
Kyle
Like,

02:32:43:00 - 02:32:45:16
Phil
you just shut the fuck up, guy?

02:32:45:19 - 02:32:52:29
Kyle
and like, I'll just chop out sections of my talking and I'll chop out sections of my guest talking. Sometimes we're just like, that was too much like,

02:32:53:01 - 02:32:53:25
Phil
no.

02:32:53:27 - 02:32:54:01
Phil
I, I.

02:32:54:06 - 02:33:00:08
Kyle
spent five minutes explaining the question and then two seconds asking the question. Just ask the question. You know what I mean?

02:33:00:12 - 02:33:01:18
Phil
Hahahahahahahaha.

02:33:01:18 - 02:33:04:15
Kyle
And so, like, you learn and you just have to be okay.

02:33:04:15 - 02:33:09:06
Kyle
Like realizing that you're not perfect and just like,

02:33:09:08 - 02:33:10:08
Kyle
be okay with the progress.

02:33:10:10 - 02:33:17:16
Phil
Yes, yes. That's actually that's literally a statement that is on my whiteboard in my office. Office progress over perfection.

02:33:17:18 - 02:33:20:05
Phil
Yeah, yeah, I love that.

02:33:20:07 - 02:33:22:23
Kyle
last one here before we wrap this up.

02:33:22:26 - 02:33:25:29
Phil
Dude. There's been a good podcast. Yeah, I've enjoyed it.

02:33:26:01 - 02:33:27:15
Phil
Yeah. Me too.

02:33:27:18 - 02:33:41:10
Kyle
There's a quote here I forget who says it. Success is loving what you do every day, regardless of the specific outcomes. And I, I kind of added to this quote by saying that this mentality is a choice.

02:33:41:13 - 02:34:08:06
Kyle
And so it's like it's our job to define what success means, from person to person. And I think I resonate with this meaning definition of success of just like loving what you do every day, regardless of how it actually ends up turning out. It's like prioritizing the experience over the outcome. Like with this podcast, like I the outcome is very, uncertain.

02:34:08:09 - 02:34:22:27
Kyle
I have no idea if I'm going to be able to turn this into something where I can step away from my 9 to 5 job. I have no idea, what doors it might open or whatever. I think that's all uncertain. I have no idea. I can't use that as the reason why I show up every day.

02:34:23:02 - 02:34:23:19
Kyle
Yeah.

02:34:23:22 - 02:34:40:12
Kyle
For me, the reason why I show up every day is because I fucking love doing this. I love the lights. I love the equipment. I love the conversations. Like, you have to love the process. And to me, that success, if you can live every day loving what you do, that's like a life well-lived.

02:34:40:15 - 02:34:43:10
Kyle
Like, I guess, like.

02:34:43:14 - 02:34:44:10
Kyle
Yeah. I don't have any

02:34:44:10 - 02:34:47:05
Phil
specific,

02:34:47:07 - 02:34:49:21
Phil
I yeah, I love, I like it, it's so funny.

02:34:49:21 - 02:34:51:08
Phil
Because two minutes for that, you're like, I spent.

02:34:51:08 - 02:34:59:03
Phil
Five minutes explaining the question that two seconds ask. Yeah. And they're just like, no, I'm just fucking with you. Haha. Yeah. No dude.

02:34:59:03 - 02:35:01:17
Phil
I love that. I think that, like.

02:35:01:19 - 02:35:02:24
Phil
I think you.

02:35:02:27 - 02:35:29:12
Phil
There definitely can be like expectations that you, you strive for, like goals that you want to achieve, right? Whether that's in business or in climbing or something like obviously with the podcast, you want to make money, obviously training for climbing, we want to climb hard, right? But I think the more that you can push your expectations out, the further that you can extend them, the higher chance that you'll have succeeding, because the more you'll be focused on just doing the actions that will actually get you there.

02:35:29:14 - 02:35:44:27
Phil
And then the more exactly what you said happy will be just in doing those actions right. If you're constantly focused on the expectation, if you're constantly like, and I'll relate this to climbing really easy, like if you're training all the time for whatever, let's say five, 13 or 5, 14 days or whatever it is, right? Then you're like, oh, I have to get there.

02:35:44:27 - 02:35:59:24
Phil
I have to climb all it. Especially if you're like climbing all the time, like I was for the year. You put so much stress and, and, you know, undue effort into this like thing that you're trying to achieve, that you don't enjoy any of the process. And then when it doesn't go your way, you just want to you want to quit because you're like, this is bullshit.

02:35:59:24 - 02:36:04:13
Phil
And then you're in that debate like, this is bullshit. This is like way harder than I thought it was going to be.

02:36:04:15 - 02:36:05:29
Phil
Study time. Yeah, I don't like.

02:36:06:04 - 02:36:15:06
Phil
Yeah, exactly. So I'm not there. And like with the podcast, for example, if you were like so fixated, you know, on the goal of, like, I need to make money, I need to make a hundred grand a year in this podcast is bullshit.

02:36:15:06 - 02:36:17:13
Phil
It's a failure. It's not going to go anywhere.

02:36:17:20 - 02:36:33:25
Phil
Then. Like, you'd be like looking at the metrics and you be like, this fucking sucks. I want to quit, right? But the further that you can push those expectations down, be like, yeah, whatever. If I get to 513, that's awesome. And that would be that'd be a great job. But I love climbing, so I'm just going to like keep training and keep climbing and like whatever happens is fine.

02:36:34:02 - 02:36:49:17
Phil
And I think you'll have a lot happier life if you can. Obviously it's, you know, a lot easier said than done. You know, sometimes it's frustrating when we put so much effort into something and we miss the mark or it doesn't get there. And that can be frustrating. But I think, and this is a good lesson for myself as well.

02:36:49:17 - 02:37:03:07
Phil
Like the more that you can just align yourself with like the present day to day actions and enjoy yourself in the moment, the happier you'll be and just push those expectations out and you know, obviously work towards them, but have enjoyment and peace in the day to day that is going to get you there in.

02:37:03:07 - 02:37:04:04
Phil
The long run. I

02:37:04:04 - 02:37:23:05
Kyle
think your your element of time is interesting. And I also think, level of ambiguity with what the expectation is, is important. I think it's, it's funny as I think it might be contradictory to certain things because like, you come into the world of like, manifestation or like, projecting thoughts or expecting the future. And a lot of them, like, be concrete about your

02:37:23:05 - 02:37:23:11
Phil
goal.

02:37:23:14 - 02:37:25:02
Phil
Yeah. Like

02:37:25:02 - 02:37:29:05
Kyle
a number, you know, like, I want 100 grand in my bank account by the time I'm

02:37:29:07 - 02:37:30:03
Phil
Yeah, dude.

02:37:30:07 - 02:37:32:24
Phil
It's stupid. Don't do that with that.

02:37:32:24 - 02:37:33:20
Phil
Yeah.

02:37:33:22 - 02:37:55:28
Kyle
specific with you are about your expectations of yourself, of a project. The more you're setting yourself up for failure, and the more you're closing doors to other opportunities that might be sitting there. And if you're so hyper focused on this one specific outcome, you might miss 17 other ones that might even be better than the expectation that you fucking thought you were trying to chase in the first place.

02:37:56:00 - 02:38:06:06
Kyle
So like, be fluid, be ambiguous with like, have a goal, but have it be kind of like, I want to be up here somewhere, like whatever that is, like,

02:38:06:09 - 02:38:12:18
Kyle
and then just be ready to jump on opportunities when you know, you see something that might push you forward a little bit more.

02:38:12:25 - 02:38:29:23
Phil
That's so funny because like, every year I, you know, make, you know, New Year's plans like 20, 25, 25 or 23. And predominantly they've always been like number based. Right. So it's like I want to make X amount of dollars. Right. And I want to climb X grade and I want to climb this amount of this X grade.

02:38:29:23 - 02:38:43:00
Phil
I want to do five alpine roads. I want to do X amount of this, whatever it is. Right. And then every year, like sometimes I hit some of them, sometimes I miss other ones, you know. But they're all like metric based. It's all just like numbers, which is like it's good to have analytics to get me wrong. That can be a valuable resource in your life.

02:38:43:03 - 02:38:48:14
Phil
But then it's always like, if you look back on the year and just think about like, man, I had a great fucking year. But then if you look back on your like numbers, you're like, oh.

02:38:48:14 - 02:38:48:26
Phil
Fuck, I.

02:38:48:26 - 02:39:02:05
Phil
Missed the mark on all these. So it's funny that you brought that up because literally this year I was like making my 2026 goals. And I was like, what I want to do. And I was like looking at 2025 and 2024 and they're all just like number base. And like, I'm looking back and I'm like, well, I didn't hit that one.

02:39:02:05 - 02:39:08:09
Phil
I didn't hit that one, I hit this one, I hit this one hit. And now the one I look forward. Oh wow. Looking at these numbers, I actually did a really shitty job.

02:39:08:13 - 02:39:08:25
Phil
The last.

02:39:08:25 - 02:39:28:05
Phil
Five years. But look at my life. I'm like, my life is going great. Like everything's going really good. So actually the only goal that I put for 2026 was to be a be at peace with myself in the day to day. That was the number one goal with that. That was the only goal I wrote on 2020. To be at peace with myself during the day to day.

02:39:28:05 - 02:39:32:25
Phil
I don't know if that's the exact verbiage, but like, that's the the consensus or the sentence.

02:39:32:25 - 02:39:33:04
Phil
Yeah.

02:39:33:09 - 02:39:48:09
Kyle
yeah man. Yeah. Peace is so valuable. Internal peace, household peace like, man. Like it's it's, undervalued, I think. Yeah. Awesome. Dude, I appreciate you. Sit down. Man.

02:39:48:11 - 02:39:49:03
Phil
Do you think that can.

02:39:49:03 - 02:39:51:18
Kyle
I'm glad we, like, pushed everything out and like, it lined up

02:39:51:20 - 02:39:53:21
Phil
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's way.

02:39:53:21 - 02:39:54:18
Phil
Better than doing it.

02:39:54:18 - 02:39:59:05
Phil
Like, after I did a big gig climbing and. And then we did a big day of climbing together.

02:39:59:05 - 02:40:00:13
Phil
We're both just, like, bagged.

02:40:00:13 - 02:40:04:28
Phil
Or like, oh my God. Yeah. Yeah.

02:40:04:29 - 02:40:15:15
Phil
No. That would. This is awesome dude, I appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks for coming on again, dude. We'll have to get to it. So I guess I gotta get to five to beat price. And this is three. This is four.

02:40:15:18 - 02:40:19:17
Kyle
I think this is. So you did Patreon exclusive. We did the one with

02:40:19:21 - 02:40:21:03
Phil
Shoot. This is only three.

02:40:21:05 - 02:40:21:29
Phil
Shoot.

02:40:22:01 - 02:40:24:22
Phil
I gotta get two more. Okay, well, I got it. So you.

02:40:24:22 - 02:40:24:28
Phil
Know what?

02:40:25:03 - 02:40:25:13
Kyle
Canada,

02:40:25:13 - 02:40:28:11
Phil
You know what I need to do? I actually need to go do some cool things.

02:40:28:11 - 02:40:31:09
Phil
Yeah. So I actually have cool stories this year.

02:40:31:11 - 02:40:32:08
Kyle
your goals for 26

02:40:32:11 - 02:40:33:11
Phil
Yeah.

02:40:33:14 - 02:40:34:02
Kyle
want to get back on the

02:40:34:02 - 02:40:36:28
Phil
you can't just be a part of the other podcast.

02:40:37:03 - 02:40:37:25
Kyle
Yeah.

02:40:37:28 - 02:40:39:00
Phil
Yeah I know, dude, I appreciate it.

02:40:39:00 - 02:40:40:18
Phil
As always. Thank you so much. Appreciate you.

02:40:40:24 - 02:40:41:00
Phil
Yeah.

02:40:41:00 - 02:40:41:11
Phil
Thanks, man.

02:40:41:13 - 02:40:46:08
Kyle
For people who don't know who you are and want to follow your story, where can people go?

02:40:46:10 - 02:40:59:21
Phil
The best place would be Instagram. So I think it's the real Canadian boys with a Z. Real Canadian boys. Or if you just up or if you just look at my name Phillip sweater with one eye sweater. Yeah. I mean, that's why I. Yeah, man. Thank you.