Da Capo Conversations 2.0 with Brennan Stokes and Hitomi Oba

For Good Measure, by Ensemble for These Times (E4TT)
Episode 187: Da Capo Conversations 2.0 with Brennan Stokes and Hitomi Oba

Looking for a way to listen to diverse creators and to support equity in the arts? Tune in weekly to For Good Measure!

Today we revisit Brennan Stokes’ and Hitomi Oba’s perspectives on how their identity and culture has impacted their music-making or career. If you enjoyed today’s conversation and want to know more about Brennan Stokes and Hitomi Oba, check them out here and here. Parts of this episode originally premiered in April 2024, click here, and June 2025, click here.

This podcast is made possible by grants from the California Arts Council, SF Arts Commission, Grants for the Arts, and generous donors like you. Want to support For Good Measure and E4TT? Make a tax-deductible donation or sign up for our newsletter, and subscribe to the podcast!

Intro music: “Trifolium” by Gabriela Ortiz, performed by E4TT (Ilana Blumberg, violin; Abigail Monroe, cello; Margaret Halbig, piano), as part of “Below the Surface: Music by Women Composers,” January 29, 2022
Outro music: “Lake Turkana” by Marcus Norris, performed by E4TT (Margaret Halbig, piano), as part of “Alchemy,” October 15, 2021

Transcription courtesy of Otter.ai.
Buzzsprout: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1903729/episodes/18313519

Co-Producer, Host, and E4TT co-founder: Nanette McGuinness
Co-Producer and Audio Engineer: Stephanie M. Neumann
Podcast Cover Art: Brennan Stokes
Interns: Renata Volchinskaya, Sam Mason, Christy Xu

Chapters

• 0:29 Today we revisit Brennan Stokes' and Hitomi Oba's perspectives on how their identity and culture have impacted their music making or career. Here's what Brennan Stokes had to say.
• 9:48 Here's what Hitomi Oba had to say.

Transcript

Nanette McGuinness  00:00

[INTRO MUSIC] Welcome to For Good Measure, an interview series celebrating diverse composers and other creative artists. I'm Nanette McGuinness, Artistic Executive Director of Ensemble for These Times. In this week's episode, we continue our Da Capo Conversations, a mini-series where we'll be giving familiar segments a topical twist. [INTRO MUSIC ENDS] Today we revisit Brennan Stokes' and Hitomi Oba's perspectives on how their identity and culture have impacted their music making or career. Here's what Brennan Stokes had to say.

Brennan Stokes  00:41

It's been really fun to to be an active title holder with the Imperial Council of San Francisco. There's definitely a gratifying nature to being able to do drag and raise funds for your local nonprofits and charities, as well as this idea of, you know, like my, my drag persona, Nikita Vega, to again, kind of donning this elaborate costume, and this process of transformation from Brennan to Nikita as a and back again is has been really fun to shift into and to really explore my masculine and feminine and in between energies and mindsets. And again, I think it again just really kind of rings that bell for me of the flair for the dramatics and the theatrics.

Nanette McGuinness  01:41

That's what I was thinking, yeah! 

Brennan Stokes  01:43

And it's just been so fun to, again, feel like there's this other side to me that gets to be just this really fun. You know, the numbers that I do are sometimes funny, sometimes serious, sometimes more dramatic in nature. But that's been really fun to to explore the the ever shifting natures of you know what gender even means as definitely as a construct, and to explore again, this, this idea of the masculine, the feminine. I think it helps me to even kind of center and balance those energies when, when composing to feel like, if there are moments, you know, just if you can still be kind of again, not to associate strictly that like masculine has to be strong, But there's to have to have feminine strength, to have masculine tenderness, to put you know, begin to figure out what you know, in what vein do I want to channel my energy, or to have you know, particularly if I'm writing a piece, as most of my pieces so far have been for either, you know, sopranos or mezzo-sopranos. You know, I'm writing for a woman's voice and with text from typically, like, a woman's perspective. I think as a as a gay man, there's definitely this, you know, there's that similarity. I think, for you know, gay men and straight women, we have our affections for men. So I think there's, there's something to be said for, you know, reading texts where there's a longing for, there's there's pain, there's heartbreak, you know, associated with a man. And there's something that, I think is that resounds very deeply, and that draws, you know, to be able to write for the the female voice, which, again, it's almost like, you know, as I don't have that exact register, but it's fun to even kind of imagine, kind of allowing that feeling of the voice of this higher range to to explore and embody. And it definitely as Nikita to and she is definitely more feminine-presenting drag. And I have always very much enjoyed the transformation of, you know, shaving off my stubble or my beard, and, you know, completely turning into a female-presenting drag queen has been, has been really fun to just increase, I think, general creativity and inspire myself to kind of push what this idea of transformation can be. Yeah.

Nanette McGuinness  04:40

Push expectations, push boundaries, push creatively. Does Nikita sing? I've not seen her perform.

Brennan Stokes  04:47

Nikita has not performed live. She is an excellent lip syncer, though, [laughs] actually did make my kind of my piano debut at the the gay pageant. So when I where I won my title performing a short piece by a Brazilian 20th century composer M. Camargo Guarnieri, and it was the first time I had, kind of, I had displayed my more classical training on the keyboard in public and in drag.

Nanette McGuinness  05:19

[laughs]

Brennan Stokes  05:19

 And that was that was also really fun.

Nanette McGuinness  05:21

And successful. It sounds like.

Brennan Stokes  05:24

Yeah! It was, it was fun to to begin to channel those talents through my drag.

Nanette McGuinness  05:33

You've actually been talking about Brazilian and Venezuelan composers, which leads me to ask you, I didn't know this when we first met, but you are half Peruvian. 

Brennan Stokes  05:43

Yeah. 

Nanette McGuinness  05:44

Yeah, so I can hear that might be part of why you're exploring these composers. But tell me how that part of your identity affects your musicianship, or your music making, or your composing.

Brennan Stokes  05:57

Yeah, definitely no. My mom, is full Peruvian, and I've been able to go back to Peru and see the family several times over the years. 

Nanette McGuinness  06:07

Oh wow.

Brennan Stokes  06:08

I think the most recent time was actually Thanksgiving of 2018 kind of all of the my mom's schedule, my schedule lined up, and was also able to go with my uncle and some cousins. And it's always been really, really, really great to go back and kind of get in touch with the Peruvian roots and still maintain contact with some of my cousins, you know, via social media. So my family back in Los Angeles as well, and I think growing up listening to Peruvian music, and especially at family gatherings at my grandma's house, that musical language, that culture, was definitely steeped into steeped into me as even as a young child and teen, it was always fun. You know, at some point in the family gatherings, you know, there's always a point where you know people, there's always once you know someone who starts dancing, and the rest of the family, you know, there's definitely a little bit of a dance floor that starts to open up to Peruvian music. And I think even that, that's also something, even recently, that I, you know, have been trying to explore, even compositionally, is music, if I find myself in a bit of a roadblock to even try and with my body, try and explore movement that can express what it is that I'm trying to compose, and kind of even physically break through that mental barrier and try to translate. What is this feeling or this body movement? You know, how does the body want to react to to music, and how does it know? How am I both in my head and my hands and body voice? You know, if it's if there are roadblocks in the mental and the vocal and maybe with them at the piano, it's not quite coming out, then maybe it's time to get up and...

Nanette McGuinness  08:07

Physicalize! 

Brennan Stokes  08:07

Yeah, physicalize and trying to physically manifest. What is it that I am trying to to get out and that that also has been very helpful, so I definitely am. I'm always thankful for, you know, kind of having the that even kind of early exposure and experiences of dancing with family and just having music be that, you know, that that ground floor that really connects us all.

Nanette McGuinness  08:38

Would you say that the dance experience, and the dance rhythms are what you associate with your Peruvian roots. Or is that too simplistic?

Brennan Stokes  08:47

I think there's, you know, the element of the dance, and there's lots of, kind of, like Peruvian waltzes that are out there, but there's kind of, there's always kind of this, this sweet melancholy and even kind of some of the harmony, and there's this kind of a lovely sadness sometimes that's kind of interwoven in a lot of the Peruvian folk music that I would grow up listening to, 

Nanette McGuinness  09:13

Like...wistful melancholy? 

Brennan Stokes  09:15

Yeah, and just it was always just again, just a different musical language and experience to have. Especially, most of the music is on guitar as well. So that was also fun to hear just a different timbre and texture then, then just piano. Yes, it was always been really, really beautiful to have my my Peruvian roots, to also go back to and be inspired by.

Nanette McGuinness  09:46

Yeah, it sounds very enriching. Here's what Hitomi Oba had to say.

Hitomi Oba  09:52

Yeah absolutely. I think it's inevitable, right? It's inevitable that our, you know, backgrounds as people. Influence our music. And I think it's just a matter of whether we're kind of, like putting up barriers to inhibit that or not. So again, being aware of when I am putting up maybe potential barriers and like, you know, letting them down. Because if I let them down, then I think inevitably it'll influence these things. So, yeah, I'm realizing, as I get older, you know, by become more self-aware of these things, like and unpacking all various things, I'm realizing more and more how it does influence my career, right? So if we're just talking about the career portion, not even the musical part, you know, my trajectory to becoming a professional musician. You know, the childhood influences, the support I got, you know, being an environment where, yes, arts were valued, for instance, you know, and people were supportive and encouraging, and obviously they were also, you know, being subject, you know, I'm realizing, again, more that I was also subject to negative biases and messaging as a child and as a young person and as an adult that have to do with like, you Know, expectations of what one can or not do. It's and, you know, the intersection of these various biases, you know, I'm like a small Asian woman. I used to be a young, small Asian woman, [laughs] which, you know, is like very, you know, subject to a lot of, like, different kinds of racial and also gender based, you know, things being here. So then how that translated to how I kind of, not consciously, but, you know, learn to behave, to survive in these fields where I was often the minority, you know. So I'm realizing now that a lot of the demeanors I take in professional situations where ways of acting to kind of survive those situations, like, you know, like, "Oh, I'm not a threat, you know, please, like, I'm not a threat. I'm also not a sexual interest or romantic interest, like, you know, I would like to be, you know, regarded with respect" you know, and like, or like, you know, I kind of used to, you know, in order to do those, you know, kind of send this message, I might like prop others up more than necessary to, kind of, like, create this, you know, hierarchy on my own, not on my own. It was existent. But me, kind of like enforcing a lot of these social hierarchies, reinforcing them to, kind of, yeah, is to try to survive and protect myself. 

Nanette McGuinness  12:25

Right. 

Hitomi Oba  12:26

Yeah. So I'm kind of been realizing even just like, this past week, I've been like, unpacking a lot of these things. You know, I'm almost 40 and, like, it's taking a long time for me to realize these things, but I think so actually, yeah, going back to the being a parent thing, I'm realizing a lot of these things now as I'm parenting two girls, yeah, like, this is another parent tension. 

Nanette McGuinness  12:50

[laughs]

Hitomi Oba  12:51

But, you know, and they're always it's not happening to the music profession. But for instance, my older daughter had an experience recently where she kind of like, was stood up in a situation where she someone was doing something that she didn't appreciate. It wasn't like, super, you know, super serious or anything, but I think, like, her teachers described it as, like, she first, like, used her body language to show them she didn't like it, and then when they didn't stop, she like, said something verbally, like, "I don't like that. Can you stop?" And you're right. And my but I realized the big realization here was that my immediate reaction in that situation would have been to tell her, like, "Oh, can you say the same message, but in a way that's nicer, that doesn't hurt the other person's feelings" and but when I brought this about, the teachers were like, "No, we're proud of her. She like, this is important for her to be able to state this in the way she did, exactly like she did, especially as a girl in the society." 

Nanette McGuinness  13:45

Right. 

Hitomi Oba  13:45

But there's, you know, a lot of times there's been a need to, like, defy expectations, you know, especially coming from a place like Berkeley where everyone's like, "yes, you're a woman" you know, like, there's a lot of hope... [laughs]

Nanette McGuinness  13:45

To own her power, yeah.

Hitomi Oba  13:45

To own her power. And I just it was this huge realization for me, and that it was like a shattering realization for me, that I was passing on my conditioning to her. My inclination was to pass on this conditioning to her, you know. And it was just, it was shattering to me, and I've been, like, conscious of it since, you know, not, I mean, obviously "be kind" is a message I want to pass on. But my, my inclination was her to kind of consider the other person's feelings more than even her own, you know, and to say, like, we don't want that. We don't want the other person be offended. So I've been kind of carrying that over into my professional situations as well. And I kind of applied that to a realization on a recent gig where I was like, "Oh, I'm doing it again." [laughs] I'm doing it in this situation. Because I was, you know, I was playing with people I didn't really know. And, you know, it was in a kind of situation with maybe, like, older people, you know, who are not in on the same kind of, you know, we were plate that, plates that we're talking about earlier. And so I think I was being extra cautious, and I was being extra, you know, propping them up more, you know. And it kind of was like, I was like, "Oh, I'm reverting back to this thing, even though I had this realization." And it's just, it's very deep condition, you know, conditioning, especially being a minority. Especially in the jazz field, it was, like, predominantly male-dominated. Sometimes I was the only woman. You know, it's often though, like, okay, most of the time I'm the only Asian-American woman, yeah, actually, I there. I can only count several instances without my sister, where I was not the only Asian American woman, often younger than everybody else, too. So, yeah, it's, it's been, it's been an ongoing struggle, ongoing, ongoing struggle, and realize self, you know, realizing, realize, realizing these things. And then I think I'm glad I'm able to realize these things now so that I can hopefully try to address them more as I parent and also as I continue, you know, working in these environments. Yeah, but yeah, musically too. I mean, I that was mostly about even just like, being a professional in the field, but musically, especially, you know, this again, goes to the jazz world a little bit more, just because it's more male-dominated, and Asian Americans are less represented there. 

Nanette McGuinness  14:10

[laughs]

Hitomi Oba  14:10

Like you're a girl you can, you know, yeah, you go get them, and it's like, Okay, I'm gonna go get them, you know, "I can play like the guys" is basically the messaging I was getting was I was growing up, and so that translates to certain kinds of playing, and also behavior on the bandstand and demeanor too, right? So just kind of reflecting back on that now, as I get older, and, you know, again, trying to be like, Well, what is my voice? And that isn't have to do just with expectations. You know, whether they're, you know, positive expectations or negative expectations. You know, the matter of like proving yourself or kind of, you know, trying to, you know, I don't know, respond to people's hopes. I don't know. So musically, that's been, you know, again, a lot of unpacking and trying to figure out what that means. But also, you know, I'm grateful because I've been enriched by so many diverse perspectives and inputs. And so kind of trying to embrace these various traits that might seem less competitive, you know, and recognizing my reasons for making certain decisions has been an ongoing, kind of somewhat more recent priority,

Nanette McGuinness  17:29

Maybe related to having kids, but...

Hitomi Oba  17:32

Absolutely. 

Nanette McGuinness  17:33

Yeah, that the model that you're providing and that, and the mirroring that you're you might be seeing, because it's, I think it's so hard in our society. It isn't just the conditioning. There's the conditioning that you were talking about and the impulses that we're trained out of, 

Hitomi Oba  17:53

Right. 

Nanette McGuinness  17:54

Because they're not nice necessarily. In quotes, "not nice" necessarily. But there's this really tricky balance that a woman has to walk between knowing what's right, speaking her mind and being put down for that, right, or being afraid of being put down for that. It's just a really thin line.

Hitomi Oba  18:20

Absolutely, absolutely as a woman, and I'm realizing now, yeah, in this new role as a mother, especially, too, right? So it's like, how vocal should I be about being a mother? You know, in some cases it's so important, right? To say, like, yes, representation. Like, I'm more a representation, right? So for other people to see and to kind of like, you know, maybe change people's minds about these perceptions, but at the same time you're right, then you're making yourself, or I'm making myself, more vulnerable to potential, you know, professional backlash and stigma. So yeah, as it's a fine line, like you say, yeah, yeah.

Nanette McGuinness  18:56

And that line moves around. It's not like, you know, it moves around, time wise and location wise and right you know, you don't know. Always know where you are. Did you find that in terms of the trajectory that either being a woman or a Japanese-American, an Asian performer, musician, composer, did it affect the trajectory of your career?

Hitomi Oba  19:21

That's hard to say. It's hard to say I've, I think in a lot of ways, I received a lot of encouragement. 

Nanette McGuinness  19:30

Sounds like it, yeah. 

Hitomi Oba  19:31

Maybe because of that, but maybe I would also say I received a lot of encouragement and support, and despite of that as well, right? You know, so, so, yeah, I'm not sure. I think I'll be having to discover that more like, what, how, like, how my path could have been influenced that, like, in terms of the actual, actual, you know, actually following this path forward, yeah, if it's the in despite of that or also, but, you know, because of that, I attributed a lot of it to my parents...

Nanette McGuinness  20:11

Yeah.

Hitomi Oba  20:12

Of being able to follow through with this and kind of like reminding me over and over, like, yes, arts, arts are important to humanity, [laughs] and, you know, just being encouraging of that, and, you know, reminding me of the values or what's important, you know, yeah, so I think in some ways it's helped. In a lot of ways, I feel like I did it despite the difficulties of, you know, having that, that those identities, yeah,

Nanette McGuinness  20:45

That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, it's a perfectly legitimate answer to say "No, didn't affect it at all." [laughs] But it sounds like for you, it was good, you know.

Hitomi Oba  20:55

Yeah, yeah, there were challenges because of that. I'm certain, absolutely. But I think in some ways it did have you know, it did help in a lot of ways too.

Nanette McGuinness  21:06

[OUTRO MUSIC] Thank you for listening to For Good Measure's Da Capo Conversations, and a special thank you to our guests for joining us today. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our podcast by clicking on the subscribe button and support us by sharing it with your friends, posting about it on social media and leaving us a rating and a review. To learn more about E4TT, our concert season online and in the Bay Area, or to make a tax-deductible donation, please visit us at www.E4TT.org. This podcast is made possible by grants from the California Arts Council, the San Francisco Arts Commission, Grants for the Arts, and generous donors like you. For Good Measure is produced by Nanette McGuinness and Ensemble for These Times, and design by Brennan Stokes, with special thanks to Co-producer and Audio Engineer Stephanie M. Neumann. Remember to keep supporting equity in the arts and tune in next week "for good measure." [OUTRO MUSIC ENDS]