FGM Turns 200! with Dale Tsang - Part 1

For Good Measure, by Ensemble for These Times (E4TT)
Episode 204: FGM Turns 200! with Dale Tsang - Part 1

Looking for a way to listen to diverse creators and to support equity in the arts? Tune in weekly to For Good Measure!

In this week's episode, we continue FGM Turns 200!, a mini-series where we talk to Ensemble for These Times' members and past guest artists. Today, we are joined by E4TT's Emerita pianist Dale Tsang, who we spoke to in June 2025. If you enjoyed today’s conversation and want to know more about Dale Tsang, check her out here: https://daletsang.com/.

This podcast is made possible by grants from the California Arts Council, SF Arts Commission, Grants for the Arts, and generous donors like you. Want to support For Good Measure and E4TT? Make a tax-deductible donation or sign up for our newsletter, and subscribe to the podcast!

Intro music: “Trifolium” by Gabriela Ortiz, performed by E4TT (Ilana Blumberg, violin; Abigail Monroe, cello; Margaret Halbig, piano), as part of “Below the Surface: Music by Women Composers,” January 29, 2022
Outro music: “Lake Turkana” by Marcus Norris, performed by E4TT (Margaret Halbig, piano), as part of “Alchemy,” October 15, 2021

Transcription courtesy of Otter.ai.
Buzzsprout: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1903729/episodes/19072145

Co-Producer, Host, and E4TT co-founder: Nanette McGuinness
Co-Producer and Audio Engineer: Stephanie M. Neumann
Podcast Cover Art: Brennan Stokes
Interns: Renata Volchinskaya, Sam Mason, Christy Xu

Transcript

Nanette McGuinness  00:00

[INTRO MUSIC] Welcome to For Good Measure, an interview series celebrating diverse composers and other creative artists. I'm Nanette McGuinness, Artistic Executive Director of Ensemble for These Times. In this week's episode, we are joined by E4TT pianist Emerita Dale Tsang. [INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

Nanette McGuinness  00:28

Thank you so much for joining us, Dale.

Dale Tsang  00:31

Yeah, I'm glad to be here.

Nanette McGuinness  00:32

So, tell us about your musical journey, please.

Dale Tsang  00:37

Well, so I started playing piano when I was four, mostly out of jealousy, because my brother was already learning the piano. He's older, so it was kind of a I just had to, I had to get the better of the situation. So I learned, begged my mom for lessons. She had to beg the teacher for lessons, and then I wouldn't stop playing the piano after that. So I think at some point around 10 years old or something, someone noticed that I had perfect pitch. Wow, this is, that's a good thing to have. I didn't realize other people didn't. Then after that, I was winning competitions a lot and playing a lot with with, you know, chamber music, a lot of solo piano, some concerti even, you know, as a little kid, and so, you know, everybody realized I was pretty good. And I think at first I liked the attention, and of course, I liked the music enough, but by the time I hit high school, it's like, really, I really, actually enjoy this. It's not just, you know, not just the accolades, and, you know, obviously I'm good at it, but it was getting to explore music that I, you know, there was, it was a whole world out there that was really nice. And when I went to college, I was very lucky to be to study with John Perry. He met me when I was, I think I was around 10, when he met me so and he followed me for all that time, and really wanted me to study with him. So that was, that was a huge, huge deal in my life when I went to work with him, because he's just all about music and the love of music. And, yeah, yeah. So that, yeah, but that was most of my journey, and then finishing my degrees, it was, yeah, I being in a music school is so much fun. It's so hard to leave because being in music and, you know, getting to do what you really love. But I always had an interest in new music, even in my undergrad days. So, you know, I at this point, I very rarely play music of what I call dead guys, because other people are already playing it. You know, there's no, I feel like, you know, Chopin, I don't need to play ever again, because I did play a lot of it. Some of my students say it's okay if I play Chopin. I said, Of course you need to play Chopin, right? Just, I don't need to, because I did already, but you need to go through the process of, you know, learning the fundamental things, the popular things, the famous things, and then and then branch from there. But yeah, so at this point, I don't need to play the things that other people are playing, but I really do need to play the things that are not being performed. You know, that's that's why I like the work that E4TT does, because it's all about either saving work that has been lost along the way, or promoting new stuff. So yeah.

Nanette McGuinness  03:26

Yeah, thank you, yes. Yeah, that is... that's really what we do, isn't it? You went to Rice, and then I think you went to grad school in Michigan, and then how did you wind up out here?

Dale Tsang  03:36

I went to USC, first for my undergrad...

Nanette McGuinness  03:39

Oh okay.

Dale Tsang  03:39

...and then Michigan for my Masters, and then Rice for my Doctorate.

Nanette McGuinness  03:44

Got it. So how did you end up out here?

Dale Tsang  03:46

Well, I was born and raised in Northern California, so I yeah, went to my I spent all of my childhood in Walnut Creek. Went to North Gate High School, Walnut Creekers, yeah. And then after going to colleges, of course. You know, Los Angeles. I was there during the Rodney King riots. Then, Ann Arbor is beautiful, but very cold, and Houston, Texas is really hot. So out of the choice of those three, this seems like a good place to come back to.

Nanette McGuinness  04:15

It's a wonderful place to come to, in fact. And, yeah, Michigan is very cold, and Houston isn't just hot, it's hot and humid. You know, I grew up there, so super I get that. Well, we're all glad you wound up back here. Yeah.

Dale Tsang  04:30

Yeah, and the music scene here is nice. There's a lot going on, especially with new music. So that's...

Nanette McGuinness  04:34

There is, isn't it? It's really active. That actually is a nice segue to our second question is, which is to talk about performing with and working with E4TT?

Dale Tsang  04:45

Yeah, so I guess the first thing that we did together was just some of David Garner's songs. This was at least 10 years ago.

Nanette McGuinness  04:56

Now, more than that, maybe 2012?

Dale Tsang  05:01

Is that possible? Possible? Yeah, I don't remember how long exactly. And I think at that point there was a it was that was part of the Jewish Music and Poetry Project. And I got hooked, because it's like, wow, this is, you know, there's music out there that we and poetry that is just, you know, of course, where did it go during the Holocaust? And, you know, got lost and stuffed in people's attics and things that needed to be dug up and bound and treasured for what they are. So, yeah, I thought that was a great idea. And then, yeah, after that all the commissioning and meeting and playing music of composers from all around the world. It's, yeah, it's a it's a great, great mission, great organization, yeah.

Nanette McGuinness  05:48

Yeah it was great having you playing with us. And yeah, I think one of the very first things you did for us was the tour to Berlin... Performing in Berlin.

Dale Tsang  05:57

Yeah...

Nanette McGuinness  05:59

Yeah. I think you'd played like one concert, and then the tour, yeah, and then now it's been really great having you come back to do the Call for Scores.

Dale Tsang  06:08

That's right. Yeah, that's... that's a thing that is near and dear to my heart. I think that's what I've always wanted to do, is really encourage new music, especially for solo piano, and then this time it's going to be for for piano, for hands. And there's just not enough repertoire. Every time that I have a duet partner that we play together, sometimes she doesn't. She's not a big contemporary music person, but looking through the files, what there has been there is not a lot. So, you know, everybody kind of play ends up playing the same things over and over again. So it's really nice to be able to encourage new music. And any any style is great. It really doesn't matter, as as long as it's for four hands, and yeah, it's fun to explore and fun to listen to...

Nanette McGuinness  06:56

Yeah four hands and good. [laughs]

Dale Tsang  06:58

And good, exactly, that's important [laughs] of course.

Nanette McGuinness  07:01

Yeah, yeah. I think it was your idea to do, wasn't it to do four hands this time around?

Dale Tsang  07:05

Yeah, yeah, because we've done enough of the well, not enough. We'll have to do more. So yeah, but it's nice to have a little change, especially because we're... we've got this collaboration going with the Ross McKee Foundation and the their competition and their laureates, and it just seemed like a really good idea to get these young pianists involved, not only in new music, but in four hands music, because, you know, piano is a very lonely instrument, you end up practicing yourself and, you know, you get on stage and you perform, but then you're still, you know, it's you're in your own mind, yeah, unless you seek chamber music or seek, you know, duo situations, you're really just, you're only making music for yourself and then and then the audience, and then yourself. It's, it's not the same thing, I think, is working with somebody else, so.

Nanette McGuinness  07:51

No, it absolutely isn't. You know, I mean, as a singer, everything I do is collaborative, right? That I do and singers continue to work with coaches and teachers in the rest of their performing lives in ways that other instruments do not. So we're not lonely in the same way. [laughing]

Dale Tsang  08:13

Well, I think most instruments end up working with a pianist or, you know, it's really just the pianist that ends up working by themselves. Well, I guess guitar, there are a few instruments that are lonely. Instruments themselves also. But the piano, I think, is one of those fundamental, you know.

Nanette McGuinness  08:28

Yeah, yeah.

Dale Tsang  08:28

...and there's so much repertoire and, you know, you can just spend your whole time not working with other people...

Nanette McGuinness  08:30

Right if you... no and it's really fun working with other other musicians. That's one of the... one of the big joys challenges, but joys in in doing a chamber music enough so that when I was in grad school, one of my master's recitals had to have an obligato instrument for one of the recitals, because they said you're going to need to coordinate, and you're going to need...

Dale Tsang  08:58

Yeah.

Nanette McGuinness  08:58

...and you're going to need to learn to do it that was explicitly stated. [laughs]

Dale Tsang  09:03

Yeah, that's important. Yeah.

Nanette McGuinness  09:05

Yeah. Yeah so, no, that's really great. And the Ross McKee Foundation collaboration is wonderful, and it's continuing for a second year, and I hope it keeps going past that, I think it's great.

Dale Tsang  09:16

Yeah, we'll, yeah, we'll see where it develops from there. I know the Ross McKee foundation is really great at encouraging not only new music, but, you know, this performances of any piano music. So it doesn't have to be new music, but this is a really that I know they've also funded duo piano collaborative performances too. So this is right up their alley. It's kind of putting a lot of things together for for their cause. And, yeah, so it's perfect. It's a really nice partnership.

Nanette McGuinness  09:47

Very much so, and it's really good for the pianist to work with composers, you know, because maybe some of them will come to the concert, or they'll have questions for them, or something like that. Because that lets what we're doing become or stay living instead of being a museum piece.

Dale Tsang  10:04

That's right, yeah, and yeah. And part of the call for scores, not just trying to find an international roster of composers. You know, it's really nice to have people from Europe and people from Asia and, you know, South... South America, but these students too. I think that was part of the the review of the scores is to just kind of keep an eye out for, you know, who the young people, because it's really nice to encourage them. Yeah, even though it's not explicitly say stated, at least I know, for me, when I'm looking at the scores, like, Okay, this person's a student, I would like to just, you know, if there's really a spark in there, I'd like to encourage it.

Nanette McGuinness  10:42

Well, that's interesting. I don't actually pay attention to that. Yeah, at all. Yeah. And so it's good that we have multiple people, you know, that you David and I are curating the winning scores. I mean, your thumb is the heaviest on the scale because you have to play the stuff.

Dale Tsang  10:57

That's okay, though. Yeah.

Nanette McGuinness  10:58

[laughs]

Dale Tsang  10:59

Yeah, no, it's nice to because David can definitely vet, you know, is this, is this good compositional style? Is it, you know, does everything work at musically like that kind of thing? And then, and then, of course, you have the whole view of, you know, what was this beautiful, what fits into the repertoire, what fits into the mission of the group? And then, yeah, and then I have the pianist, okay, yes, I have to sit down and learn this too. And some of the pieces that we've chosen in the past have been so hard, but that's okay. I mean, it's worth the time, it's worth the effort, and it's, yeah, it's really fun. 

Nanette McGuinness  11:34

They are sometimes hard. I think you like a challenge, though.

Dale Tsang  11:37

I do like a challenge for sure. Yeah, I don't like, I don't like challenges for no reason.

Nanette McGuinness  11:41

No right.

Dale Tsang  11:42

But I like challenges when, especially when they teach me something new that I feel like is something that I haven't learned in the past. Like, for example, like we had some pieces that were like a bluegrass style thing and a lot of jazzy things. And I'm not a jazz pianist, but learning, you know what it takes to to pull those off and to make those make it sound kind of like I'm a jazz pianist. It's fun.

Nanette McGuinness  12:09

mmhmm... And I mean, both you and I have the chops in terms of degrees and background. You with your DMA, me with my doctorate in musicology, to figure out if a piece is well constructed, but I still think having a composer's...

Dale Tsang  12:24

Yeah.

Nanette McGuinness  12:24

...viewpoint is really useful...

Dale Tsang  12:26

Yeah, for sure.

Nanette McGuinness  12:27

...and very helpful.

Dale Tsang  12:28

Yeah.

Nanette McGuinness  12:30

Thank you for listening to For Good Measure, and a special thank you to our guest, Dale Tsang, for joining us today. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our podcast by clicking on the subscribe button and support us by sharing it with your friends, posting about it on social media and leaving us a rating and a review. To learn more about E4TT, our concert season online and in the Bay Area, or to make a tax-deductible donation, please visit us at www.E4TT.org. This podcast is made possible by grants from the California Arts Council, the San Francisco Arts Commission, Grants for the Arts, and generous donors like you. For Good Measure is produced by Nanette McGuinness and Ensemble for These Times, and design by Brennan Stokes, with special thanks to Co-producer and Audio Engineer Stephanie M. Neumann. Remember to keep supporting equity in the arts and tune in next week "for good measure." [OUTRO MUSIC ENDS]