Jennifer Higdon - Part 3

For Good Measure, by Ensemble for These Times (E4TT)
Episode 222: Jennifer Hidgon - Part 3

Looking for a way to listen to diverse creators and to support equity in the arts? Tune in weekly to For Good Measure!

In this week’s episode, we continue our third season, “Talking @ Text,” which focuses on creatives, including lyricists, singers, and composers, who work on music with text. Today we talk to Jennifer Higdon about taking on projects that challenge her and what she has coming up, the importance of building relationships with performers as a composer, and the value of women’s representation in music across the board. If you enjoyed today’s conversation and want to know more about Jennifer Higdon, check her out here: http://www.jenniferhigdon.com/. This episode was originally recorded in February 2026.

This podcast is made possible by grants from the California Arts Council, SF Arts Commission, Grants for the Arts, and generous donors like you. Want to support For Good Measure and E4TT? Make a tax-deductible donation or sign up for our newsletter, and subscribe to the podcast!

Intro music: “Trifolium” by Gabriela Ortiz, performed by E4TT (Ilana Blumberg, violin; Abigail Monroe, cello; Margaret Halbig, piano), as part of “Below the Surface: Music by Women Composers,” January 29, 2022
Outro music: “Lake Turkana” by Marcus Norris, performed by E4TT (Margaret Halbig, piano), as part of “Alchemy,” October 15, 2021

Transcription courtesy of Otter.ai.
Buzzsprout: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1903729/episodes/19656393

Producer, Host, and E4TT co-founder: Nanette McGuinness
Co-producer and Audio Engineer: Stephanie M. Neumann
Podcast Cover Art: Brennan Stokes
Operations Coordinator: Elmer Carter III
Interns: Renata Volchinskaya, Christy Xu

Transcript

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Nanette McGuinness  00:00

[INTRO MUSIC] Welcome to For Good Measure, an interview series celebrating diverse composers and other creative artists. I'm Nanette McGuinness, Artistic Executive Director of Ensemble for These Times. In this week's episode, we continue our conversation with Jennifer Higdon. [INTRO MUSIC ENDS] 

Nanette McGuinness  00:27

You're in great demand as a composer, as we've been talking about, and you've written in forms that have not been taken on by anyone else. So, such as your bluegrass-classical hybrid concerto, a concerto for the entire low brass section of an orchestra, and a concerto that features six soloists. These are all very cool combinations. Can you talk about what inspired some of them? And looking ahead, are there other combinations you hope to write for, or projects you'd like to share with us?

Jennifer Higdon  01:00

Yeah, you know those combos. All of them were terrifying. Every single one of them, which is probably why I ended up saying yes.

Nanette McGuinness  01:08

[laughing]

Jennifer Higdon  01:08

Sometimes I take on things because I realize if it scares me enough, it means I'm going to grow as a composer.

Nanette McGuinness  01:13

Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Higdon  01:13

So I know...

Nanette McGuinness  01:15

Wise.

Jennifer Higdon  01:15

...the low brass concerto was... that was the Chicago Symphony, and they're famous for their brass section. And...

Nanette McGuinness  01:22

Yeah.

Jennifer Higdon  01:22

...when I got the call, I'm like, "Are they nuts, low brass? And then I thought, "Wait a minute...

Nanette McGuinness  01:26

[laughing]

Jennifer Higdon  01:26

...it's Chicago Symphony. What am I doing? I have to do this, even if it's really scary. I got to figure out a way to do it." It was kind of the same. I have to admit, the bluegrass piece was also a similar thing. I knew the three players because they had been students of mine at Curtis.

Nanette McGuinness  01:42

Mmhmm

Jennifer Higdon  01:42

They'd been in my 20th-century music class, and I knew the orchestra because it was the Philadelphia Orchestra of all people who commissioned it. So...

Nanette McGuinness  01:51

Wow.

Jennifer Higdon  01:51

...that was scary because trying to figure out how to write an orchestra accompaniment that is straight so that it can be put together quickly and give the improvisation and the bluegrass elements to the soloists was really hard. I still feel like it's a miracle that it... it worked.

Nanette McGuinness  02:11

[laughing]

Jennifer Higdon  02:11

It's kind of unreal, and it... it doesn't fit standard classical, although it's classical orchestras that do the piece. It's been really popular, much to my shock and amazement, it's been recorded three times. I mean...

Nanette McGuinness  02:17

Wow!

Jennifer Higdon  02:20

...what composer says they've got something recorded three times? You know, much less a concerto. That's a that's kind of an amazing thing. Yeah.And the "Eighth Blackbird" thing, those guys talked me into it. You know, I'd written two other works just for them, and I kept thinking, "Ah, golly, they want a concerto. How are we going to do this? And then I realized it's a little bit like painting and drawing. It's just different colors.

Nanette McGuinness  02:37

[laughing]

Jennifer Higdon  02:38

And the "Eighth Blackbird" thing, those guys talked me into it.

 Nanette McGuinness  02:38

Yeah.

Jennifer Higdon  02:38

You know, I'd written two other works just for them, and I kept thinking, "Ah, golly, they want a concerto. How are we going to do this? And then I realized it's a little bit like painting and drawing. It's just different colors.

Nanette McGuinness  02:53

Yeah.

Jennifer Higdon  02:53

You just have to figure out how to get everyone in with their own solo and how the group functions together as one unit against an orchestra.

Nanette McGuinness  02:53

Mmm.

Jennifer Higdon  03:02

I think once I broke the problem down into smaller segments and thought about the components of it, it was easier for me to problem-solve. But I confess, in each one of these cases, the relief that they worked-it was-

Nanette McGuinness  03:16

[laughing]

Jennifer Higdon  03:17

I'm still relieved. I still- I still had that feeling. So, oh my gosh! And you know, honestly, I've... I've been very lucky because I've gotten to write for all the things that I've wanted to write for. That's the really...

Nanette McGuinness  03:32

Nice

Jennifer Higdon  03:32

...surreal experience that I've had. I think I've got like 18 concertos now. I mean...

Nanette McGuinness  03:37

Wow!

Jennifer Higdon  03:38

It's really a substantial amount of stuff. The ones that really terrified me, also, I have to confess, were the piano concerto and the violin concerto that I wrote because I'm awful as a pianist. So the thought of tackling a concerto when there's so much incredible repertoire out there was scary. It was really terrifying, but it turned out okay, and I lucked out because I got probably one of the best pianists on the planet. Yuja Wang was the one who premiered that.

Nanette McGuinness  04:08

Wow! Yes, you did. [laughing]

Jennifer Higdon  04:09

Yeah, I know. Yeah, I know. She could play anything, and then the Violin Concerto has been done a whole lot. Hilary Hahn was the one who played that premiere.

Nanette McGuinness  04:20

Another very fine... [laughing]

Jennifer Higdon  04:27

Yeah, I know. I mean, this is the thing. Some, but you know, they were Curtis-connected too. This was part of the...

Nanette McGuinness  04:27

Ah.

Jennifer Higdon  04:27

I mean, I'm teaching these people in 20th century music history and theory, and they're all going through my class. Time For Three too. They're going through the class, so it's somehow, somehow the overlapping.... It's the relationships. I mean, I'm always telling composers this: the most important thing you have are your relationships with performers. It's not really other composers. The other composers aren't going to do anything for you. It's the performers.

Nanette McGuinness  04:53

Yes, that's true. And it's this-it's the flip side too. The for performers, it's the conductors and the...

Jennifer Higdon  05:02

Right.

Nanette McGuinness  05:00

...composers that you meet when you're in school or...

Jennifer Higdon  05:02

Right.

Jennifer Higdon  05:02

Yes.

Nanette McGuinness  05:04

...building your career, and...

Jennifer Higdon  05:05

That's it. Yeah, it really does come down to that. And it's like I wish there were a big poster in every school that said that to composers... because composers frequently don't hang out with performers.

Nanette McGuinness  05:17

Right.

Jennifer Higdon  05:17

So it's they're missing out on the most crucial thing that they can actually get in school. It's not so much the lessons and the history and the theory classes. That stuff does help, but the real magic happens with the people who perform your music or who will come back to you 10 years down the road and say, "Hey, will you write something for me?" That's...

Nanette McGuinness  05:36

Mmhmm

Jennifer Higdon  05:36

...that's the key right there.

Nanette McGuinness  05:38

Yep, I totally agree. Do you have projects coming up that you'd like to share with us, or would you rather...?

Jennifer Higdon  05:45

Yeah, I have projects coming up that I'd like to share. Golly, I'm trying to be...

Nanette McGuinness  05:49

[laughing]

Jennifer Higdon  05:49

I'm trying to.... You know, it sounds funny, but after this slew of seven premieres, because I had... I had two premieres in the fall on top of... So this concert season will have had nine premieres by the time I've gotten through it.

Nanette McGuinness  06:02

Wow!

Jennifer Higdon  06:02

I'm trying to slow the train down a little bit because

Nanette McGuinness  06:05

Mmm.

Jennifer Higdon  06:06

I haven't really had a life in a very long time. [laughter]

Nanette McGuinness  06:09

[laughter]

Jennifer Higdon  06:11

It's not. I mean...

Nanette McGuinness  06:12

Underrated, right? 

Jennifer Higdon  06:14

I'm working through weekends and nights, and this has been going on for consecutive years, and...

Nanette McGuinness  06:19

Yeah.

Jennifer Higdon  06:19

They're all really good experiences, but it...it doesn't seem sustainable, to be quite honest. So it's... I'm trying to pull back, but I think on my schedule.... Wait, let me think. What have I got? I have a major flute concerto coming up with Fort Worth Symphony. I think that's in the 2027/28 season.

Nanette McGuinness  06:19

Okay.

Jennifer Higdon  06:39

I'm already talking to people about these seasons, and I'm... I'm getting ready to start a piece for the Akropolis Reed Quintet, which I'm really looking forward to. It's all reed players.

Nanette McGuinness  06:50

Yes. 

Jennifer Higdon  06:50

So it's an oboe, clarinet, bass clarinet, alto saxophone, and bassoon.

Nanette McGuinness  06:50

Mmhmm.

Jennifer Higdon  06:57

And it's...it's a great sound.

Nanette McGuinness  06:59

Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Higdon  07:00

Really, it's kind of amazing. So that's on my schedule, and there's something else that's really.... Oh, I just agreed to do a violin and piano piece for a group over in Europe. I've been talking to the Brevard Music Festival about doing something for flute and piccolo with band as well. So...

Nanette McGuinness  07:23

Interesting.

Jennifer Higdon  07:23

Yeah, but my goal right now is to get through all these other premieres because...

Nanette McGuinness  07:24

[laughter]

Jennifer Higdon  07:25

I think there are four recordings going on simultaneously.

Nanette McGuinness  07:29

Wow.

Jennifer Higdon  07:29

So yeah, it's juggling a lot of balls in the air, but I'll get... I'll get there. Hopefully, I'll get to the summer and I can collapse out on my back porch and just kind of lay in one spot and not think.

Nanette McGuinness  07:42

[laughter] Veg out. Right? 

Jennifer Higdon  07:43

Yes, that sounds good.

Nanette McGuinness  07:45

Yeah, yeah, no. Well, and congratulations. So that's really great. So, could you talk about your experiences as a woman composer? And in addition, you gave some advice earlier. Do you have other advice for either emerging or women composers.

Jennifer Higdon  08:02

Well, I think the... probably my advice to women would be exactly the same for all composers: just write as much as you can and get to know performers. It's really... it's an interesting perspective. I'm asked about this a lot. It's hard for me to know what the other perspective is, so...

Nanette McGuinness  08:19

[laughter]

Jennifer Higdon  08:19

...I can't complain that I'm not getting performances because I'm getting just a lot of performances. So I... while there may have been biases when I was younger, when I was first coming out, I often had people say to me, "I can't believe a woman wrote that."

Nanette McGuinness  08:34

Ah, haha.

Jennifer Higdon  08:34

And I would always be like, "Well, what does that mean?" and I said, "Well, I guess you got to start believing because I did write it!"  So...

Nanette McGuinness  08:39

Yeah, right! Thank you. [laughter]

Jennifer Higdon  08:41

[laughter] But um.. I think the thing is, the... your music has to sell itself.

 Nanette McGuinness  09:08

Mmhmm.

Jennifer Higdon  08:47

That's kind of the way I've done it... Always, and also being respectful to everyone involved in the music-making process. Now, this is something I see composers of both sexes sometimes get in and they don't want to make changes in their piece, which I understand the thinking on that. But a lot of times, a performer has a better idea how their instrument works than we might.

Nanette McGuinness  09:10

[laughter]

Jennifer Higdon  09:11

You know, I mean...

Nanette McGuinness  09:12

I hope so!

Jennifer Higdon  09:13

Yeah, well, this is the thing, and composers don't look at it that way, though. That's the... that's the problem...

Nanette McGuinness  09:21

Ah.

Jennifer Higdon  09:21

...and it helps if there's a dialog because you really can learn a lot from your performers. I think George Crumb was telling me this...

Nanette McGuinness  09:22

Mmhmm.

Jennifer Higdon  09:24

...you know, and he, God, he was a walking example of that. He did things with instruments that kind of blew my mind, and I remember asking him, "Where did you come up with some of these unusual extended techniques?" He said, "Oh, musicians would show them to me."

Nanette McGuinness  09:41

Oh!

Jennifer Higdon  09:41

Oh, that's really interesting. Yeah. So I think being a woman composer, I'm sure there have been points where I wasn't aware of someone saying, "Oh, we can't do her music."

Nanette McGuinness  09:42

Ah.

Jennifer Higdon  09:46

But I can't complain about not getting enough performances now because I'm a woman...

Nanette McGuinness  09:58

[laughter]

Jennifer Higdon  09:58

...so, because I'm getting performances, but for me, it's been more about: put your head down and do the best work you can because the music is going to make the most compelling argument on your behalf.

Nanette McGuinness  10:12

Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Higdon  10:13

Yeah.

Nanette McGuinness  10:14

That makes sense.

Jennifer Higdon  10:15

It's such a simple premise, and it probably was pretty naive as a young composer, but it didn't occur to me to do anything else, and it seemed to have worked. But I will say this: I do, even now, when I'm in university settings and orchestras and all, I talk about the fact that they don't have enough women programmed.

Nanette McGuinness  10:36

Ah, yeah.

Jennifer Higdon  10:37

That's actually, I think... that's really a serious problem. Orchestras are worrying. Opera companies too. They're worrying about being able to stay relevant in their community, and I'm like, well, you're doing all male composers. Half of the population doesn't see themselves represented in the repertoire.

Nanette McGuinness  10:38

Mmhmm.

Jennifer Higdon  10:38

You're not giving them their voice, so please think about that. There's excellent music out there by women. You need to program more of it. You just... but you have to make the effort to find it too. And now with the internet, that's actually possible. It used to be a lot more difficult.

Nanette McGuinness  11:10

Yeah. Yep. You're right.

Jennifer Higdon  11:12

People have websites now. I mean, it's not like this stuff is hidden somewhere in the dark. 

Nanette McGuinness  11:12

[laughter]

Jennifer Higdon  11:13

So I'm often... really, I'm talking to administrators and conductors, I said, " You've got to look for women composers." Seriously, it's not... you need to have a better balance on your programs. And I find that the audiences actually like that; they like it a lot.

Nanette McGuinness  11:33

They do.

Jennifer Higdon  11:34

I've seen them thanking in public forums and, like, talkbacks after concerts where... I remember when my violin concerto was done with Hilary, and we were with the Baltimore Symphony, and Marin Alsop was conducting. Every night we did a post-concert talk, somebody inevitably stood up and said, "It is amazing to see three women up there making music."

Nanette McGuinness  11:34

Yeah.

Jennifer Higdon  11:34

And the whole audience just burst into applause, and I was like, "Wow, this is really..." I mean, I think we were all caught off guard by the reaction.

Nanette McGuinness  12:01

[laughter]

Jennifer Higdon  12:02

It was... it was an eye-opening moment for all of us because I looked at Marin, Marin looked at me, I looked at Hilary, Hilary's looking at me, and we were all like, "Wow, this is..." There's obviously a hole in what's being expressed when there isn't a woman represented on the program, and the audience is noticing.

Nanette McGuinness  12:02

Yes.

Jennifer Higdon  12:02

They're noticing, so I think in... in... for the sake of the arts surviving and doing well and being relative to today, you've got to have women represented.

Nanette McGuinness  12:32

Yeah.

Jennifer Higdon  12:33

They need to be there as soloists, conductors, composers.... It's not just the composers; it's across the board because it will make a difference in how your audiences perceive you.

Nanette McGuinness  12:44

I agree. I mean, we are tiny, and you're preaching to the converted because...

Jennifer Higdon  12:50

Yeah.

Nanette McGuinness  12:50

We're a group of women musicians...

Jennifer Higdon  12:52

Yeah.

Nanette McGuinness  12:53

...and we do a lot of women and...

Jennifer Higdon  12:55

Yeah!

Nanette McGuinness  12:55

...marginalized voices. It's really kind of our beat and what we've been doing...

Jennifer Higdon  13:02

Yeah.

Nanette McGuinness  13:03

...all along.

Jennifer Higdon  13:06

Right.

Nanette McGuinness  13:06

And... and you're right that audiences again and again in surveys say how much they appreciate that.

Jennifer Higdon  13:07

Yeah.

Nanette McGuinness  13:07

And you know...

Jennifer Higdon  13:09

Makes sense, yeah.

Nanette McGuinness  13:10

Yeah. We have an annual concert of women and non-binary composers.

Jennifer Higdon  13:14

Right.

Nanette McGuinness  13:14

And people really appreciate that.

Jennifer Higdon  13:17

Yeah, they do, and I realize that part of the thing- part of my responsibility, because I do get performances and I'm in universities and all- is to talk about it, not be silent about it either. Even if someone hasn't asked me about it, I still need to talk about it...

Nanette McGuinness  13:34

Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Higdon  13:34

...because it never... you don't know who's listening...

Nanette McGuinness  13:34

Yes.

Jennifer Higdon  13:38

...and you don't know who may be really affected by even pointing these things out, because a lot of times people will say, "Oh, I never thought of it like that," and...

Nanette McGuinness  13:47

Mmhmm.

Jennifer Higdon  13:47

...once they have that perspective, it changes everybody around them. So it's important to even make the message obvious in places where you think, "Maybe I don't need to say this," or something. So I also consider that, though, honestly, part of my responsibility to others.

Nanette McGuinness  13:51

Mmhmm. I think that's that's nice and wise. [laughter]

Jennifer Higdon  14:10

[laughter] I'll keep on it, and I will.

Nanette McGuinness  14:15

[OUTRO MUSIC] Thank you for listening to For Good Measure, and a special thank you to our guest Jennifer Higdon for joining us today. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our podcast by clicking on the subscribe button and support us by sharing it with your friends, posting about it on social media, and leaving us a rating and a review. To learn more about E4TT, our concert season online and in the Bay Area, or to make a tax-deductible donation, please visit us at www.e4tt.org. This podcast is made possible by grants from the California Arts Council, the San Francisco Arts Commission, Grants for the Arts, and generous donors like you. For Good Measure is produced by Nanette McGuinness and Ensemble for These Times, and designed by Brennan Stokes, with special thanks to co-producer and Audio Engineer Stephanie M. Neumann. Remember to keep supporting equity in the arts, and tune in next week "for good measure." [OUTRO MUSIC ENDS]