Free Me from OCD

Postpartum OCD: Insights from OCD Expert Jenna Overbaugh

• Season 1 • Episode 22

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Welcoming a new baby into the family is a joy-filled event. However, human brains can pose challenges. You already know about postpartum depression. In this podcast episode you will learn about postpartum OCD. My guest, Jenna Overbaugh, is a licensed professional counselor and NOCD therapist. Jenna shares her own experience with postpartum OCD and demystifies this taboo condition. 

Do you know someone who might be struggling with postpartum OCD? Here are some helpful resources.

Click here to learn more about the OCD Freedom Formula Bootcamp.  This 28 day program kicks off 5/7/24. 

Connect with Dr. Vicki Rackner:



Do you remember bringing your new baby home? This is generally a time of joy. However, sometimes human brains don't make it easy. You already know about postpartum depression. In this podcast episode, I'd like to share with you a conversation about postpartum OCD.

I have as my guest Jenna Overbaugh. Now Jenna is an expert on OCD. She is a licensed professional counselor and a therapist with no CD. She's also generous to share her own personal story with postpartum OCD. In addition, Jenna is a masterful educator.

You can listen to her podcast, All the Hard Things. Jenna also has a mom support group on Facebook called The Lake Country Moms of Wisconsin, and you are welcome to join. I'll leave links below so you can reach Jenna. Welcome to the Free Me From OCD podcast. If you or someone you love has OCD, you know that OCD can hold you hostage.

OCD can get in the driver's seat of your life. Here, you'll find the information, tips, and tools to put you back in the driver's seat of your life. I'm Dr. Vicki Rackner, your host. I call on my experience as a mother of a son diagnosed with OCD when he was in college, physician, and life coach to help you evolve into the best and highest version of yourself. Let's dive into today's episode.

Well, welcome, Jenna. It's such a delight to have you here to talk about the taboo topic of postpartum OCD. Thank you so much. Yeah. It means a lot to me.

So I'm really happy to be here. Can you tell us your story? Yeah. So I was always an anxious kid. I always, you know, started out being very anxious around, you know, new kids at school or who am I gonna sit with.

But even when I was young, I always knew, okay, that just means I have to do it. I just have to do it. I have to, you know, go ahead of my fears and kind of be very competitive with my anxiety. And it wasn't until I was in college where I really learned about that being an intervention. I learned really early on in a very serendipitous way just in my general psych 101 course about exposure and response prevention and I fell in love with it.

I just from that moment on, I was hooked. I wanted to learn everything about it, every single internship, research project, poster. Like, everything that I did, it had to be about exposure and response prevention or OCD and anxiety. And so I went on to study that and really specialize in it, hone in on it as much as I could, went to grad school, spent about 8 or 9 years in one of the very few, residential facilities for OCD and anxiety recovery for adults. So I worked with some of the most debilitating cases of OCD and anxiety in the whole entire world and got, you know, world renowned training.

It was really incredible. And now I work at NOCD. I'm a therapist at NOCD, but I'm also on the marketing team. I do a lot of social media content creation just aimed at education and advocacy. But my personal story really comes in, you know, never really thought that I had OCD, maybe some anxiety as it generally goes for people.

But I have my son who's now 4 and a half. I had him back in 2018. And because I'd already been in the field for 10 years, I was very ignorant going into motherhood. Just, you know, oh my gosh. Like, I would never let my husband do anything for me.

I know better than to do that. I know better than to give into rituals like that. I'm good, in a way thinking that I was kind of immune to it. And I was just I had no idea what was coming my way as most new moms don't know what's coming their way. And so, yeah, I remember my very first intrusive thought.

You know, it was really it came in like a lightning bolt. Like, it was very clear. It was very obvious to me. Like, everything just, like, broke from that moment forward. I was in my bedroom with my husband.

My son was, like, maybe 3 weeks old at that point. We were putting facts on him, and I remember I had the intrusive thought that, what if I snapped his ankles? And then I, of course, went into the spiral, which is very familiar to anyone with OCD, which is, well, did I actually want that to happen? Like, was there a part of me that actually wanted that to happen? Like, would I actually enjoy doing something like that?

And despite everything that I know professionally and everything that we say on paper not to do, I remember very clearly, like, raising my hands and saying, no way. I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that. That the stakes are too high. And I started to not wanna put socks on him.

I started to not want to dress him. And by the time I went back to work 3 months later at the end of my maternity leave, I remember telling my husband that I wish I didn't work at Rogers at the recovery center because I, I should be going there. Like, I wanted to go there. So things had just gotten really bad. And, yeah, I mean, got suicidal at one point.

Some of my deepest and these were egosyntonic. These were thoughts that I actually did want. Obviously, you know, you can have ego dystonic thoughts of harming yourself that you don't want and that very are very scary to you in OCD, but I had kind of always thought about rolling out of a moving vehicle. That was always something that, you know, got to the point where I felt like everybody would be better off without me. There were many times where I felt like the my only barrier the only reason why I wasn't running away was because of money.

Like, how would I do that to my family? Like, I couldn't do that, but that was the only thing really holding me back from that. So it got really bad, and I just felt like an imposter in all of my professional work. It was really awful. Struggled with harm intrusive thoughts, obviously.

Started to have sexual intrusive thoughts, like, do you really need to be pushing his penis down whenever he puts a diaper on? Do you actually like doing that? It just got really gnarly. And then, you know, hit that bottom like we talked about, it was about, it was in September of 2018, so about 4 years ago, and then got into therapy myself with someone who specialized in postpartum, and and that was really, you know, the changing point. I couldn't take it anymore, started doing exposures, and everything has been great from that point forward.

I feel like I am a better mom because of it. I'm a better wife because of it, and, ultimately, 100% a better therapist because of all of the stuff that I went through. Well, thank you for sharing your story. If I could just reflect back what I just heard. What I just heard is that you are skilled at managing your own anxiety.

You got special training. You were in a position where you were helping other people in an inpatient setting with OCD and anxiety. And yet, when it came to your relationship with your brain, as your child came into your life, it sounds like it took a while before things clicked, before you recognized what was happening there. Yeah. I, you know, I feel like when we're in the thick of it, when you have OCD, I feel like we all kind of doubt it.

Right? Like OCD kind of makes you doubt whether or not you have it or am I just being overdramatic or are these just my hormones? Like, what's going on? And so it's the doubt disorder. Right?

It's the doubt disorder. So it's not just making you doubt whether you would do these things or whether you would lose control. It's doubt it can make you doubt whether you even have a condition. Right? Like, it makes you doubt whether you could rely on someone else to be able to help you.

It made me doubt. Right? Like, that's the most terrifying thing in the world for a mom to have to go and share this with a doctor that she's having these unwanted intrusive thoughts of harming her baby and not even to mention the sexual stuff. Right? Like, that's terrifying because, you know, our worst imagined our worst imagined fear is that, you know, someone would say that we are dangerous and they would take our children away.

So, yeah, for about 6 months, I mean, I in hindsight, it was so obvious. Like, I was I had this thing where I, I, I, like, doubted my memory a lot. And especially when I was so became so sleep deprived, I started to, you know, check on my baby at night, and then, you know, I would come back and then I would doubt myself, like, am I so tired? Am I so sleep deprived? That I, like, beat him up in the middle of the night and I didn't remember it.

And I remember I would just hold him for 2 hours 1 night, and I was just, like, scouring his scalp and, like, did I did I, like, like, bash his head against the wall? That was kind of what it was. And I didn't see anything, and I would put him down, and I would have that doubt again, like, are you so sleep deprived that you didn't see something that was right there? And I would have to get up and check them again. And one night, it got so bad that I had to ask my husband to I was like, I haven't slept all night.

I need you to go and check this for me. Like, again, going against everything. And in hindsight, obviously, like, slam dunk case of obsessive compulsive disorder. But when you're in the thick of it, it's like, I don't know. I just never even thought about it.

I I never even thought about it. I think I was just so in survival mode. Like, I was just truly trying to, like, get through the next 5 minutes, and that was an experience that I, like, couldn't resonate with until I experienced it myself. I hear you. And I hope that the listeners will have some compassion with themselves if they're managing OCD or maybe their adult kids, if they're parents.

Because if an expert kind of gets caught up in it, you can imagine how easy it the suffering to go on before you finally get help. So thank you for sharing that. I very much appreciate that. It's it's it's so personal and it's so nuanced, but I'm sure, like, regardless of whether someone out there has postpartum OCD or whether someone, like, doesn't have a child yet but they've struggled in other ways, like, I'm sure everyone can resonate with that experience of, like, oh, yeah. I've definitely doubted myself before.

Like, that's OCD for you. It's awful. Absolutely. Now in retrospect, Jenna, do you think that you had any symptoms of OCD before you had your son? In hindsight, definitely.

I mean, I think the training that I got when I was in residential, it was very much it was great. Right? Like, what better training could you have possibly gotten than to work with the most debilitating cases of OCD in the world? And I was working with some of the people who I had literally, like, cited in my master's thesis. It was really an incredible experience, but I do feel like it was very subtype specific.

It was very much like OCD exists with contamination and harm intrusive thoughts and sexual intrusive thoughts, like, in these very confined vacuums of subtypes. And I didn't really not until I went to know CD and I really branched out and started to work more outpatient did I realize that OCD is only limited to your imagination. Right? Like, it can latch onto anything and it can come in these really, like, unconventional but still super valid ways. And so in hindsight, now that I've kind of, like, been more abstract in my thinking and understanding of OCD, I remember looking back and I used to sob uncontrollably about my dog dying, like my first dog that I ever had, and, like, just sob uncontrollably.

And he was perfectly healthy. I was just so I would get so unable to breathe, like, being like, just crying hysterically about him dying, and reassurance seeking about every bump or every deviation from his baseline. And I was also that way with my mom for a while. She was a smoker, so I was constantly, like, you know, going to all of these extreme ends to check on her and, like, almost prepare myself for the people around me dying. I was also always very, like, strange with roadkill and animals.

Like, I would always have to kind of, like, replay how the animal died to almost, like, ensure to myself or reassure myself that they didn't suffer. So totally in hindsight. My my earliest it's kind of laughable, and I don't know if you'll know the band, but I remember I always used to have to do everything in threes because I loved the band Hanson and there were 3 brothers. And I was always very, like, religious and, like, very rigid about having to do everything in threes because if I didn't, then one of the Hanson brothers would die. So definitely in hindsight, I see it.

But never it never I mean, I I would always have definitely said that I had more anxiety, like, more generalized anxiety, but, yeah, I I can put the the pieces of the puzzle together. I believe that it was probably always there lurking in different ways, and it just all came to head at that point when I had a baby. Got it. Now if there are new moms out there, what are some of the things that might suggest that they've got postpartum OCD? So we know that stress in and of itself can exacerbate symptoms, whether that's good stress or bad stress, and not to mention, like, all of the hormonal changes that take place with having a baby.

Right? So I always would encourage people to be mindful of the fact that when you have this baby, you are going to have heightened levels of anxiety. Right? And and that's just because we care. Right?

Like, anxiety is not necessarily a bad thing. Anxiety puts you know, sprouts us into action. Anxiety gives us an alert system to pay attention to things that are more vulnerable, and that we're responsible for. But when it starts to get to the point where it's very distressing to you and you feel like you're no longer running the show and you feel like you're no longer able to control it, Like, you know, there were times where I would check my baby once or twice in the middle of the night to make sure he was to make sure he was still sleeping, and that was fine. But then there were other times where it was like, I don't wanna do this anymore.

Like, I don't want to do this anymore. This feels awful. This feels crazy to me, but I feel like I have to because if I don't, something bad will happen. So when it kind of teeters over to that edge of, like, I don't wanna be doing this anymore, but I still feel like I have to, that could be something that, you know, might send the alarm, that you're maybe in more distress or more impairments, than just kind of that, like, low level anxiety that might be normal for new parents. But having intrusive thoughts, definitely, having thoughts that, you know, you might hurt your baby either on purpose or an accident that are scary and not wanted, sexual intrusive and unwanted thoughts that you might touch your baby inappropriately or that you might have looked at your baby differently.

Certainly contamination fears are super common, you know, wanting to, you know, have have all the bubble the bottles perfectly scrubbed and perfectly sanitized. But, again, it can latch on to anything. Right? So, you know, what feels most salient to me was just like I was constant I had to constantly be moving. It felt like I had all this nervous energy in me.

It felt like I my mind was going a mile a minute all the time. It felt like I wasn't myself anymore. And so, yeah, there are lots of different symptoms out there that you may be experiencing, but definitely the intrusive thoughts and these this feeling that you have to go and do these either behavioral or mental compulsions that you don't wanna do, but you feel like you have to do. Those are some signs that you might be struggling and that you might, need some additional support. Alright.

Well, let's say that you already carry the diagnosis of OCD, you wanna have a family, and you're planning to get pregnant. How would a woman or a family prepare for the pregnancy and and motherhood? And and that's such a great question. It can go a 1000000 different ways. Right?

So I get that question a lot, like, I already have OCD or I already had anxiety. I really want to have a baby but I'm really nervous or, you know, it runs in my family and I'm really nervous, I think that that that could mean that that you will struggle a little bit more. Right? It could also mean that you're more equipped to deal with it, right? So, you know, I I don't know what would happen if if we were to have another one, it's not on the radar, but I feel like in some ways I would be more vulnerable to that than say the average Jane or Joe because because it's in my biology and because it's just how my brain is a little it's wired and it's always gonna be like that to some degree.

But I also feel like I would be way more equipped now to deal with it than I was before. Right? So, you know, I think it depends on a lot of things. Like, are you educating yourself about these things, or are you going into it completely blind? Right?

So I think women who go into new motherhood completely blind, like, not having this the access to these resources, they are probably gonna struggle more because they're gonna have these intrusive thoughts more than likely and they're gonna feel all alone. They're not gonna have the context for it versus someone who's like, oh my gosh, I heard that on a podcast the other day. That's okay. Like, I'm not losing my mind. Like, this isn't this is not just a me thing.

My brain isn't broken. I can I can handle this right now? I think it's also totally different, like, if you are doing some element of exposure and response prevention, whether that's more in a more structured sense with a therapist versus just kind of on your own. You know, you're challenging yourself, you're trying really hard not to give into compulsions versus somebody who's, you know, not doing therapy, they've never done therapy, they're probably gonna struggle. Right?

Like, I can imagine not struggling. If If you're already struggling and you're not doing any kind of recovery work and then you add this new, like, monumental change that's, of course, very stressful in a good way and a bad way, that's probably gonna be difficult. Right? So, but by no means are are people doomed. I mean, in a lot of ways now, I would feel more equipped than someone else who's you know, I would just feel so much more equipped now.

So it's all about, you know, educating yourself, exposing yourself to the realities of motherhood because I feel like sometimes we don't talk about the nitty gritty. We kind of only talk about the good stuff. And then, yeah, being willing to, you know, advocate for yourself if you feel like you're struggling. That's really important too. Alright.

Now you listed all the reasons that you would be set up for challenges in the postpartum period. And I just really wanna emphasize something you said earlier, the role of sleep deprivation. You know, if you think about it, you manage OCD with your brain, and your brain is not optimized if you're sleep deprived. Absolutely. And most moms are.

Most moms are. Did you find there was any correlation with, like, catching up on sleep and your OCD symptoms? I mean, I definitely felt better after a good night's sleep, right? Like, I felt clearer. I felt, you know, more patient with not just my family members but myself.

You know, felt like I had more energy to do the things that made me feel like me, like, whether that was a little walk around the neighborhood or something like that. So it's all very interconnected. Right? You know, but even even with the best sleep. Right?

Like, so I could still I'm sure I still struggled immensely. Right? So, you know, I always think of us like, you know, doing ERP and doing, again, whether that's with a a therapist or just on your own trying to implement these strategies as best you can, it takes a lot of work, and it's mentally draining regardless. Right? Having OCD is mentally draining regardless.

And so, yeah, when we couple that draining mental work with not being able to sleep, you know, oftentimes not taking care of ourselves physically or emotionally, as new parents, we're not able to really, like, eat right. Like, I remember in the middle of the night, I would just, like, down a whole box of Pop Tarts because it was, like, all I had the energy to to do. Like, I needed quick food and Pop Tarts sounded great. But, yeah, Pop Tarts and not sleeping and not drinking enough water, You know? So all it all contributes.

Right? Like, it's not setting us up for success. That's for sure. So, yeah, it was it was gonna be a struggle no matter how much slept I got, but I I think we would all agree that, heck, yeah, we felt so much better when we were able to get good sleep, take care of ourselves, but not everyone gets the ability to do that, especially single parents or, you know, peep I can't even imagine how people who have, like, multiple children do it, but, yeah, it's all really, really difficult. Yeah.

So if somebody did have postpartum OCD, is NOCD a good place to reach out? Absolutely. So I would always want anybody, if you feel like you have OCD, whether or not you have a diagnosis, I would want that person to be seeking out evidence based treatment for OCD because, unfortunately, if you were to just go to a doctor or an OBGYN who is not specialty trained in OCD and doesn't recognize, that as being, like, very specialized and discrepant from just general postpartum depression, unfortunately, probably what's gonna happen is they're going to give you a list of just generic CBT therapists. And what that is is they might do exposure and response to prevention. A CBT therapist might be specialized in OCD, but it's not a guarantee.

Somebody who does CBT can also just sit down and talk to you endlessly without any structure, without any guided behavioral intervention, and that's not good for OCD. If anything, it could be detrimental to OCD. And so we don't want a woman who has postpartum depression and postpartum OCD to be given the same trajectory because they're different conditions, they're different mechanisms going on, and unfortunately though that's what happens. So anyone out there who feels like they are resonating with the concept of intrusive thoughts, compulsions, high levels of anxiety, I would really empower them to seek someone out who finds and specializes in exposure and response prevention. And at NOCD, that's obviously what we do.

We specialize in that. All of our therapists get super rigorous training in exposure and response prevention. And, yeah, it's it's evidence based. It's backed by tons of rigorous literature, and scientific data to back it up. So, we also offer, support groups there.

We have 2, I believe, that are specific just to moms who have postpartum OCD, but we also recognize that it's not just for moms. We also have the ability for dads to join that group as well. At the end of every month, I believe, there's, like, a special, group where they can join the mom group. So so, yeah, lots of resources out there. Yeah.

It's it's definitely debilitating when it's not treated, but it can be treated, and it doesn't have to be debilitating forever. Alright. Now I wanna ask a personal question. How's your bond with your child? Right?

Because that's what we want. We want to be able to bond and love our children. I think it's incredible now, and I think it was even before. Right? Like, OCD latches on to what it is that we value, which in hindsight, like, right, like, it was latching on to my bond with him.

It was latching on to the my worst fear of something horrible happening to him. As he grew older and he wasn't as vulnerable, when he was more vulnerable, it was more like harming him physically. When he got older, he started to, you know, play and talk and learn and all that stuff, I feel like it morphed into almost like a relationship OCD type of thing. It was like, I was very obsessive about our bond, and I would be very obsessive about, like, when we drive home from daycare, if I listen to my music, am I gonna mess him up? Or should I listen to his Elmo music that he wants to listen to?

Or should we just talk and ask each other about or his you know, should I ask him about his day? And if I ask him about his day, should I frame it in the form of a question or should I say, tell me about your day? And then by the time I came up with an answer, we would be home. So it was, like, it was just, like, obsessiveness about, like, the quality of our relationship and how I was implementing my like, I just couldn't be myself. Like, I just I could not be myself at all.

And now I mean, he's 4a half now, and I still have some of those little things, but, you know, by means of trying to push myself outside of my comfort zone, it used to be to the point where I would not be able to be by myself with my son for, like, when my husband would say that he had to go to the bathroom, my heart would drop. Now we go on, like, weekend getaways together, the 2 of us, like, as a regular rotation every 6 weeks. We're going in November to go home and see my family, to fly together, just the 2 of us. And I feel like I appreciate that time now more so much more than I would have had I not gone through what I've gone through because, I don't know, like, the fact that I can just, like, enjoy an hour alone with him and I'm not freaking out is, like, such a big deal to me. But other people probably you know, that's a day in the park for them, but it wasn't for me.

So, yeah, I I definitely, like, appreciate things that I'm I don't feel like I would have been able to appreciate had I not gone through the things that I went through, but we're very connected. He's a definite mama's boy. We are together all the time. He's an only kid, and he's just the best thing in the whole entire world. Oh, your face just lights up when you talk about him.

Yeah. He's the best. I could just talk about him all day. Alright. Do you have any tips about how to share with other adults in your life that you're going through this postpartum OCD?

Yeah. I think it's totally personal to everyone and to, you know, different from relationship to relationship. It totally depends on, you know, I think why you're asking you know, why you're telling them. You know, like, you know, if it has to come down to, oh, I just wanna feel more connected to that person, I think that's great. If it's, oh, I just really want them to, you know, put my son's socks on for me and do the scary thing for me, so it's, like, an accommodation, that's probably not good because that's not helpful.

That's gonna just make the OCD cycle worse. So if it's for the sake of connection and you feel like that person can be trusted with the personal information and that you're, you know, emotionally safe with that person, then absolutely. You know, that's something that's very, you know, unique from relationship to relationship and very personal. Whatever people share is completely up to them. You know, but I my best advice is, like, to never expect someone who doesn't have OCD to understand completely.

Like, I remember being so frustrated and, like, resentful of my husband for the longest time that he didn't understand. And, like, he would listen, but, like, of course, he's not gonna understand. He doesn't have OCD, and he's not a mom, and he's never going to be. So, you know, for the longest time, I was just very resentful. Like, I just wanted him to get it.

Not that I would want him to get it, but I just wanted him to understand. And it felt really good to finally just, like, stop holding my breath. Like, he I don't need him to understand. Like, I have other people in my life, like, via support groups, via other therapists that I work with. Like, I feel like there are people that I can go to if I need support.

And just I'm not yeah. Like, you just stop holding your breath. It's not fair to expect him to understand it because he he's not going to. So finding that those people who do get it, whether that's with the free support group, there are lots available online, whether that's just, like, via our free Treat My OCD app. There's a big in app community there.

It's really important to know that you're not alone and, you know, find I I started a mom support group in my area. There wasn't anything like that that existed at the time, so I started one myself, thinking surely that it would be, like, 1 or 2 moms. We now have about 6,000 members, and the largest, mom support group in the Midwest. So, yeah, like, if you if you can't find it, make it. Right?

Like, if you can't find that that support for yourself, make it, and, you know, be the one to get out there and provide it to some other mom because parenting is is really, really hard. And, if you're needing something, chances are you're not the only one. So if it doesn't exist around you, make it. Make it happen. Terrific.

Well, you've shared so much great information. Are there any final thoughts you'd like to leave us with? I would love to just underscore again that this does not just happen to moms, right? There's nothing special with moms. Of course, there is the hormonal piece that we will never be able to shake, like that that does contribute to postpartum OCD developing, but it can happen to dads, it can happen to adoptive parents, it can happen to siblings, right?

So no one is immune to this. No one is immune to it. OCD is only limited by our imagination. And even me who had been working in the field for 10 years can still be vulnerable to it. OCD latches on to what it is that we value most.

It manifests from our core fears, our worst, most imagined nightmares in the whole entire world. And, yeah, I would just be very clear. If you go to a doctor, be feel very equipped with the word with words like ego dystonic, like, no, I'm having thoughts that I do not want to have. I do not want to have these thoughts. These are thoughts that scare me.

I would never act on them because unfortunately a lot of professionals, it's it's awful, that they, you know, they might not understand OCD. So when they hear that you're having these scary thoughts about your baby, they may interpret that as though you want to be having those thoughts. But research shows that that's not true. Research actually shows that women who have unwanted intrusive harm thoughts about their baby are less likely than the average Jane or Joe to harm their baby. So, you know, really just feel equipped going into these, you know, discussions with your doctor.

If you feel like you're struggling with OCD and and they're they're misinformed, you know, feel free to inform them. It's nothing wrong with you. It's just the status of our, maternal mental health system at this point and it's a it's a wreck, unfortunately. So, be prepared to advocate for yourself. You're doing all everyone listening is doing all the right things by trying to educate themselves, hopefully just spread the word and, you know, don't be afraid to show up a little bit more vulnerably in your own friendships and in your own motherhood, you know, relationships because I know when I am a little bit vulnerable in my conversations with a friend, you know, when I share a scary thought or I share something that causes me anxiety or whatever, generally, the is, oh my gosh.

Me too. I thought I was the only one. And, like, you can imagine if we could just all do that a little bit more, like, we would all amplify it, we would all understand each other so much better, and we would all know that we're not the only ones who have these scary taboo thoughts. So we're not alone, and there's help out there. A 100%.

In the notes below, you will find a link to NOCD where you can find a NOCD therapist. I've also got links to Jenna's podcast and her mom's support group. Well, thank you again, Jenna, for sharing your experience, sharing your heart, and sharing your great advice. Awesome. Thank you so much for having me.