Attachment Theory & Toxic Relationships W/Mac Stanley Cazeau

Mac is back! Today we covered:

1. What are attachment styles within a romantic relationship and why are they important to note? 
2. Can you give us some examples of how these attachment styles look in real life and which ones do you see most common in either gender?
3. Can you attachment style change? 
4. What are signs of a toxic relationship based on attachment style? 

Mac Stanley Cazeau, is NOT just any ordinary therapist; his unorthodox, no-nonsense approach makes for a therapeutic experience like no other!
Owner and operator of Therapy Is For Everyone counseling, he’s specialized in couples counseling, focusing in the areas of conflict management, increasing intimacy, navigating affairs, and recovering from narcissists.  His work with couples uncovered his hidden ability to connect with his male clients in a novel way. 
As a millennial therapist, Mac is not afraid to buck formality and get beyond candid in his work, and this relatable and humorous approach creates a space of comfort and safety for his clientele. His methodology has led to breakthroughs for hundreds of clients, men and women included.Links:

IG: https://www.instagram.com/talk2macstanley/

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@Talk2Mac

Website: https://www.therapyisforeveryone.org/

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Transcript

 Today we're talking about attachment theory, and I honestly didn't really know much about it. So I had a Google it so I can come up with a. Episode questionnaire. I always send my guests some questions. Anyways, we're talking to Mac again. We talked to Mac in the very first few episodes of Marino's podcast and it is still one of the top episodes out there. If you are in a relationship or want to get in a relationship or are married and maybe even just struggling, this is such a good episode, especially if you don't know your attachment theory and if you do know your attachment theory and don't know how to handle your relationship is also a good one to listen to. You will hear me find out which attachment theory I am in this episode. And it's really interesting and it just really just makes sense. And again, I married a unicorn and I must protect him at all costs. I'm super thankful for my husband, Tom, and he approves of everything we talk about, by the way. Anyways, let's jump in. Hi, Mark. I'm so excited you're back. Your. Hey, how are you? Good, thanks. We were just saying Mac and I were just saying it's been so long since we chatted, and I'm so excited to have him back because He has one of the top episodes from this podcast, and we're going to make this one the top. Yeah, me too, baby. Took it too. Yeah. Mag So tell us about who you are. So my name is Mac Stanley because I'm a licensed mental health counselor. Well, first, specialization and couples therapy are my I would say my expertise lay around the concept of overcome meaning and fidelity communication skills I'm also the owner of Therapist for Everyone, which is a private practice that's based out of New York City where I specifically work with couples. Yeah, that's awesome. So you're doing it all. You do some. Do you do you do a lot of podcasting, don't you? I I've been doing a lot of podcasts. Yes, but we're taking a break. Yeah, This is my last podcast of this year. I feel so honored. Thank you. so my listeners know Tom. My husband Tom and I are in therapy. We just started therapy, I think in August and we love it. We we really do love it. There's a lot of work to be done. But today I want you to talk to us about attachment styles. And I personally don't really know a lot about attachment styles. I did have to Google it. I was like, What is how many are there? But just before we dive into like the nitty gritty, can you tell us what are attachment styles within a romantic relationship and why are they important to know? That's so that is an excellent question. So attachment styles is kind of how our way of showing up in relationships. And it could be and it could be tied back to our upbringing. I believe the research around it was that the primary caregiver would bring their child into the lab and then you put the child down and you walk away. So if you have a secure attachment, your child would be able to go around and play and when you come back, comes back to you and then go back to playing. So that's part of a secure attachment, meaning this the distance that happens by mom walking away does not create a negative reaction out of the child. So they're because they trust that their mom is going to come back for them eventually or whenever they need them. Okay. What if you have a child who doesn't, who, like, cannot and you did nothing wrong? a secure attachment is the first one, the next one, we we can talk about avoidant attachment. And that's, that's the concept of whenever there's big emotions or big feelings, we tend to run away or walk away. We need the distance, right? So is that the mom brings to bring the child into the lab. Mom leaves the child there and walks away and the child just continues to play. But when Mom return does not go back to mom because the child believed that mom is going to leave again and I'm going to be on my own, so I might as well figure it out myself. So what does that look like in relationships as whenever there there is a trigger where. Well, let's talk about it in terms of dating, you had a great night with someone you met at a bar. You go back home, you had this amazing night, and then you wake up the next day and they're still in your bed. So now the trigger is, how do I get him out of my house? They're smarter. They're smarter than me. They're taking over my life. I need distance. Right? So. So then the next thing you do is like, Hey, your Uber will be here in 10 minutes. So it's it's it's it's this concept that you just move from your trigger to your protest behavior. So you don't trust you don't trust that it's a good thing. So you're pushing it away. Correct? You don't allow yourself to get close because you know that they're going to hurt you. You have a fear of abandonment. So you try to avoid getting getting close to people trust, trust, trusting people or being vulnerable with with people. So the fact that they're still in your household the next day in I want to spend a day with you that's too vulnerable. That's that's too much emotion. It's so happy to create an avoidance from that makes sense. Yeah, that's sad. I feel I feel like I've had like I'm excited to hear the rest, but feel like I feel like I've had a little bit of it all. All of them at some point, usually. Right. And the the next one is we secure avoided the next one is anxious, anxious, anxious attachment. So the mom comes leave, leaves the child in the house, starts crying, the child becomes very anxious that the fact that mom left when mom returns, Mom can not consoled that child. The child is still crying and it's really anxious him and mom is present. What does that look like in our relationship? Consistently, consistently needing reassurance, consistently needing to to be told that you are the one that I want to be with you. When distance is acquired, you start to think to yourself, my God, they found somebody that's better than me. They're going to leave me. There's something wrong with me, right? I think I have that one. I think that one. And do you want to hear The amazing thing is what avoid in an anxious tense will always find each other. Yeah, Yeah, every single time. Okay, So. So interesting that you say that because it my childhood so I are a single mom refugee of war. My dad left us. My mom wasn't around much because she was working a lot and my mom always loved her to death. My mom and I have a really good relationship now, but I remember as a child she would always make threats to me, like, I'm leaving, I'm done with this, like I'm leaving you. And I've even caught myself say that to my kids. Like, not that I'm leaving them, but I'm like, I've got to get out of here. I can't. I can't handle this. And is that how you're kind of as a child creating this, like, avoidant attachment? Like you're just afraid someone's going to leave? Because for me, I'm anxious. I feel like in all my relationships before before my husband, I would be I was like, anxious. But I, I was avoidant and anxious, kind of like you said, I was a little bit of both like I would be. I was a little cocky and I would be like, I don't need him. But then if I got close enough, I would be like, Whoa, like, why isn't he texting me back? Why is it, you know, is he doing this? Is he doing that? And so obviously, like, I've come a long way with my husband. But now I have a question about that because in our therapy sessions, we talk a lot about like each other's needs. And one of my biggest needs is like affirmation. So at what point is it my love language versus like anxious attachment? Like what? Where is that? Where do you draw the line? Am I just anxious and need him to constantly like or sherry or is that or do I just want to complement the. So the complement is the reassurance. It's it's, it's the idea that you're being seen and you're being validated for what it is that should provide to this relationship. So with Mom consistently threatening that she's going to leave or walk away, added to the fact that your dad abandoned you, there's this fear of abandonment which could also lead to a fear of intimacy when you started dating. So now that that that you're in a marriage and how do you relationship that anxious attachment is still present where we consistently need that reassurance? The thing with love language is it doesn't embody you as a whole is it speaks to things that speaks to you. Okay? Like us humans were very complex, right? So. So this concept that a love language is the only thing that we need to focus on is just not accurate. It's possibly 10% of the equation. All right. So different that you're anxious to attached would also leads me to believe that your husband is secure, securely attached because you want to make your relationship work for this amount of time. I think he's very comfortable that and that's the beauty of it, Right. So if we go into the dating world in terms of attachment, when everybody's saying they're in the dating pool and I can find a suitable partner, it's actually true. But they're just using the wrong terms. Language is very is very is very important. If we're not communicating properly, then we don't know what it is that we need to address. So prior to research, 50% of the population is securely attached. But the amazing thing is those that are sexually attached tend to get into relationship and stay in those relationships. Right now that leaves you and that is 50% of avoidant mixed with anxious. Now, the unhealthy toxic relationships are being created because avoidant and anxious are complete opposite of each other. So the key is to find those that that are secured to help you in your journey to become sexually attached yourself. But if they're already in relationships, then you're kind of screwed. So can we put on like a like a job application or which attachment are you? I'm looking for the secure ones only like dating a dating profile, looking for secure attachment only. And you think that will be cognizant enough to to think, to trust that we should be looking for someone that's securely attached. But in reality, if I'm avoiding my disposition is to seek some someone that's that is anxious of what it means. I want away from my emotions. So someone that that's anxious, that's able to communicate how they are feeling and what emotions are present for them and for them to be able to ask for what they need in terms of reassurance is appealing to me because that tells me I don't need to do that labor emotionally because it's already being done. Not someone that's anxious loves someone that's able to not always fall for victim to their emotions, that's able to kind of be mellow, that's able to be more rather more radical or more mindful. So we end up matching with each other, creating on paper what we refer to as a toxic relationship because we can meet each other's needs. Anxious. I need reassurance, I'm avoided. I'm running away from emotions. So now we're chasing each other while the avoiding is running away from so. And then what's the four? That was three, right? Yeah. I think the fourth is a mixture of avoid debt and and and anxious sometimes it's referred to as disorganized. Okay. All right. So I found my secure. You know, I think hearing you say, though, I do feel like I mean, we've been together 13 years. I do feel that he has just really made me more secure in our relationship for sure. There are definitely areas where I don't it's more the words, more the like, tell me that I'm worthy. Tell me that you're proud of me. Like things like that. It's not really like if he leaves or if he's hanging out with his friends. I used to like, younger me in my early to mid twenties. I would be like, paranoid, you know, he's hanging out with his friends, like, what's he doing? And he never gave me a reason. Never gave me a reason to worry ever. Like, but it was just in my head. But now I'm like, I don't care. Please leave. Take three days. Go away. Which means that you're becoming more secured. So on average, 20% of people are able to shift their attachment status. Okay, so you're becoming more, more secure. So when you have a fire or an injury, how do you feel? man, that's a loaded question. I'm usually this is something we're working on in therapy, so nobody judge me. I'm usually the, like, toxic one in the fights. I'm usually the one that like, says, like, I'm done with this fuck off, like I'm leaving or not like leaving the marriage, which is like, I'm leaving this room, blah, blah, blah. Like, I'm usually that one that's like, I'm not doing this. And then he's usually the one that's like comes to me and like, says, I thought about this, like, I'm really, you know, he's very rational, he's very logical. He's a very, like, healthy, healthy arguer. But sometimes because of how I am, I like I just want him to fight with me. So I just like, dig deeper. So these are just areas we're working on. So when we fight, it's usually gets a little ugly if, if I don't just like I have a really hard time, like making eye contact and saying, okay, like just being like, okay, with, like the tension, like I have such a hard time with it. Like over. I feel like I just me not that I don't feel like I need to be right, but I feel like I need to be. I don't feel like I need to be right, but I feel like I just need to, like, be heard, you know, need to be understood. Right. So that that she'd could to resolve to resolving a conflict is not to seek agreement because we're both right and we're both from because we have a different perspective of the situation. And that's not debatable. Right? Menu. We can have the same experience but have different viewpoint of what took place and how it affects us. So we're not debating the facts. The key is to try to understand each other's perspective. If you were in my shoes, could you understand why I felt neglected by the lack of presence and thoughtfulness in the relationship? So once we start to label the emotions that allows our partner to be able to connect to those emotions, they can experience that they can identify themselves. What are the times where I felt neglected as as opposed to the facts? Because it does become debatable, right? And as as an anxious attached individual, it's very important that your emotions are heard and understood and processed so that the reassurance can be given. The last thing that the biggest detrimental concept to an anxious attachment is, so is the feeling of being neglected and too much distance taking place between the two. Then we start to ruminate what you're going to leave me with. They're going to find somebody better, or is this my fault? What do I need to do better? Right. And that's why the reassurance is so important as well as effective communication skills. So I'm thinking about my listeners right now and they're probably thinking, okay, I'm this, he's this or whatever. How do you communicate your attachment styles to your partner and say, Hey, I listened to this episode and Mac said that, Na na, how do you how do you even bring something like this up? And then how do you even, like, say, like I say to my husband all the time, I just need reassurance. That's it. That's it. I just need it. That's it. I love John and I don't. I know that can be talks. I know they can be annoying because he's not like that. He doesn't need reassurance. Like, to him, compliments don't mean anything. He's like Oprah, you know, he's just very secure as now that we've learned what secure means. But how do you bring it up to your partner? And then how do you ask for what you need? First things first. I just want to applaud you on first for being brave and trusting enough to actual partner for exactly what you're in need of and to trust how your partner is going to meet those needs. Too often, people in relationships shy away from voicing their needs because of this fear and this pattern of being rejected. Right. If you are told you when you ask for reassurance, come on. A game like what's wrong with you? Why? Why do you keep asking for this? This is so annoying. Then eventually you learn not to even communicate that and allow resentment to grow. So the fact that you are able to communicate it so freely tells me that he's doing a very good job of validating that and meeting those needs. So. yeah, he's a unicorn. Yes, I have a unicorn husband, but I'll be honest, like it. It wasn't always like that. I you know, there's especially in the beginning of a relationship and you've probably seen this like it's so hard. You don't want to look crazy. You don't seem like the anxious, crazy one. So then you, like, fester all this stuff internally. Yeah, but yeah, it took a while. But it's a journey, not a marathon. And a lot of times I have sort of my couples that it's a journey. It's not. It's. I'm sorry, it's not a sprint, it's a giant. Right. And what there's my favorite CBT skill is radical acceptance. And CBT, dialectical behavioral therapy is a just and not a form and not approach to to therapy. Right. Right. So radical acceptance speaks to accepting reality for what it is instead of trying to romanticize what it's not. Meaning that if you're anxious to attach or avoid it or void in attached, you have to accept your partner for who they are instead of wishing that they were something else. And you also have to accept that this is what your attachment is. By having that that acceptance, then it's easier to communicate. Hey, this is my style of attachment and those are the things that I need to feel appreciated and secure in this relationship. And knowing if those things are provided on a consistent basis. I do have a chance of moving away from being anxious or avoidance of becoming insecure. We can chastise each other for not having our preferred attachment style. We have to accept it for what it is and work in collaboration to make the necessary changes. Must be so like nice to be is the secure attachment. It's the it makes life a lot easier. Like if it just sounds so simple, know we don't run away from, from conflicts, right? We're able to process our emotions. There's not as much trigger when it comes to a conflict. Like. Like your husband's able to come back saying, okay, I had a chance to think about this, but it's not ruminating, leaving, or or what you might think of them. It's being able to self-reflect and look at the patterns and come back to like, okay, here's where I went wrong. You know what? I understand this perspective now, after you've communicated and I'm sorry for that. We have no problem taking accountability. We have no problem with reflecting and taking blame and taking the necessary steps to correct those things. Yeah, I love that. But is there is it possible to have your attachment style change? I know you said 25% of people can shift their attachment style, but that doesn't seem like. Are you saying that 25 of the 50 that are anxious or are you saying 25 total like can a secure attached person shifted to anxious or shift into, I mean, everything is possible, but that's not the norm. Meaning if somebody has a secure attachment and dating someone that's anxious or avoid it, and if those individuals are not doing their work or learning how to cope with it, the angst the second person will just walk away because they have certain boundaries that they're not willing to compromise. They have a certain amount of patience or they have their limits right? And due to the fact that they're securely attached, they also understand what is it that they deserve. And eventually, if they're not, if their needs are not being met or prioritized, or if the relationship is becoming too toxic for them, they will walk away. But but what's also interesting and who this day and age is that those that are secured get into relationships and it tends to be long term and which also helps those that that are anxious or avoidant that's their partner to shift to a more secure attachment. So now the dating in the dating pool just means there's just anxious and avoidant as the majority and there might be a little sprinkle of secure attachments out there it's hard to be able to notice this secure attachment because one we're not seeing in that too. We tend to partake in this cycle of abuse consistently. Our brain is wired to prefer things that are not continuous, right? Being with a secure attachment can be boring. There's no it's true. It's no drama. Exactly that much toxic. They tend to be very secure and and honest. There's not as much up and downs, right. Like if you are guaranteed a continuous healthy relationship. And for a lot of people that can be boring because it's not really releasing a decent amount of dopamine, eventually we get bored of that. But if you're consistently dating involved in volatile relationships, in terms of emotions, it's much more engaging. There's more dopamine being released, it's much more fun. So unconsciously we're finding ourselves in the pattern of date of dating for boys and asking, why do we continue to do that? It is very simple. There's a reward attached to it. Yeah. Is is is this concept of If I can get you to like me, then I have the power back is the concept of how can I get you to call me or to commit to me? How can I get you to like me versus who who it is that I am dating shouldn't be as invested in me as I am in them. But that's where what happens when you have a marriage or a relationship with two anxious and avoided people? Like what does that look like? Yes. Yes. But it's also me. my God. But it's also not the norm because they don't find that attractive. If I'm anxious, more than likely, I'm not going to seek out someone that's. That's also too anxious because it's a mirror to who I am. And we're showing the same side, the same issues. So it's not that attractive to me. That's why anxious and avoid it tend to be the ones that tend to make up the most. Okay. So it's pretty common that they're drawn to each other and not the other way. Correct. And then just this is kind of for the parents listening and you're your parent. So it's probably in your mind to you say this starts in childhood. How can we as parents create like a secure attachments with our children to avoid creating future husbands and wives that are anxious like me? Isn't that a great question? I wish I had the answer right. I also feel like a lot of times parents are being blamed for the way that children become adults, and I think that's unfair. I wouldn't say it's solely dependent on on the parents. I think the media plays a big role in that society plays a big role. So it's not just the parents, it's the environment that they are being raised in. But one thing I would say is that sleep training is a form of anxious attachment, avoidant attachment that's not secure at all. Right? You're isolating a child into a dark room and they're crying out for you, but you're not responding in a way that meets their needs. But they are forced to soothe themselves and fall asleep. But in reality, what's happening is, well, I can cry and you're not going to come, so I might as well figure it out and just go to sleep. By definition, that's a void. That's a void in attachment. Or the parent comes back and try to call you can 5 minutes, ten, eight. What whatever the case may be. But the child is not being sued because they fear that you're going to leave again, which is anxious attachment. But at the other hand, if you try to respond to them as much as possible, then you're like me, where you can't tell when you're going to sleep or how long you're going to sleep or what the nighttime routine is going to look like. So it's like a catch 22. But I would say be as loving as possible, to not use threats like mom is with you and and just try to be as authoritative, not authoritarian, be authoritative as possible. Yeah, it's so interesting. I have two kids, two and five, and they were raised almost identical. I think I'm a little bit more attached to my two year old because she's my last baby. So I'm like, I just let her sleep in bed with us all that time. But I mean, I didn't do much different at all. And my five year old has that. I think. I don't think he's fully anxiously attached, I think. But he just has more I'm thinking more like when we go to put him into like a sporting thing or like a extracurricular activity, he's definitely more like anxious, whereas my two year old is like, okay, bye, Mom, See you soon. And it's related and all that it had. You know, there's really no clear cut research on that. But I also think that's just a firstborns because my daughter, my oldest, is turning four. And to me shock is very anxious. And if you ask me, I babied that little girl like, yeah, what was business? Maxwell Matsuyama, who's the second child? If the cops showed up to my house, I know who they're looking for. It's. Yeah, she's a badass. She's a badass, right? So I don't, I don't think it's due to how we raised them. I just think it might be a byproduct of being the first born, the second or third born, which is why I don't. You can't really blame parents for the for attachments. There's just a lot of factors involved that we're not in control of. So interesting, I feel like I have this personality where I'm going to go do all this like research and it is now. This was so good. So I'm just curious. I don't know if you even know this, but is it do you find that certain genders are more one attachment versus the other? I don't know. I to not know. But if I were to hypothesize about let's be a scientist right now, right. Based on what we know, if we're looking at the day dating world, it's mainly there's more single women than available men. But if we're looking at the world in terms of Earth, there's always been more males than women. So it's hard to tell, but I honestly don't have that answer. I don't even have a hypothesis which I'm trying to think like, who do I know and what they're attachment styles would be? But I would, I think just don't say that men are race. We may appeal more secure because we're unable to kind of voice our need for reassurance or a desire for more validation at times. Think about it. Men tend to engage in more stone walk stonewalling behaviors which might be seen as avoidant attachment. Yeah, So I don't know. It's interesting. I'm curious. I wonder if there's info out there about that. And then what is just to close it out. What is your top tip for, say, like for your couples that you see in therapy that are anxious or avoidant or both? What is your top tip as far as like how do you ground yourself in your relationship? Yeah. So if you are avoided, it's all about set and clear. Expectations is being clear on what you want and learning to override your net, your negative pattern of thinking. Right? So if you're in a relationship and you have in avoidant attachment, an injury happen or a conflict, you start to think of all of the negative things. So by your partner, right, you start to ruminate on all of the negativity. What what I would actually do is first to focus on the positivity, start labeling the positive things about your partner just to counter that negativity. And yeah, so that would be my main tip if you haven't avoided attachment because that stops you from running away and actually reward you for coming back by being negative. Yeah, you're kind of giving yourself all of the reasons why you should create more distance by leave by labeling the positivity, it helps you kind of be more focused on repairing the relationship. Now, if you are anxious and you have a conflict that's when you start to overthink. Are you going to find somebody better or going to leave me? There must be something wrong with you. So what you need to do in reality is to build in what I like to call distractions, right? Instead of thinking those things, to do something else, go play a sport, go to the gym, go to the movies. Just watch a movie to distract yourself from what you might be feeling or what you might be thinking. Also, look for evidence that's going to counter what you are saying. We've been married for ten years. They've never left, so why would they leave now? They're just going for a walk. Dude, they will be right back. They didn't call me because they must be busy. I work or I'm always like, He's dead on the side of the road somewhere my life is over. But or or another step would be to call a friend that understands your attachment, that you can communicate those those things to, and then they can create that space for you to get it out and then remind you of all of the positive things. Yeah, that's all of the above. I can attest to. Love that. Thank you, Mac, so much. This was such a great conversation. I hope to snatch you again in the new year. We can talk about all the other things we need to learn about relationships. But can you tell everybody where we can find you on socials? Yes, you can find me on Instagram. I talked to Mac, Stanley, talked to Arcade, the number two Mac Mac Stanley. I see an alley y. Perfect. And I'll tag everything below. Thank you again, Mac. Thank you for having me. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure that you hit subscribe. You leave a review. I love reading your reviews, so if you really found this useful and helpful, a review would be so special to me. And make sure you check out Mark on socials. He's a great resource for anyone who is in a relationship or wants to be in a relationship. And yeah, let's talk next time.