Episode 99. This is crazy, you guys. I cannot believe we are going to be at episode 100 next week. Make sure you come back next week. It's going to be so good. But today, we're talking to the ladies who are divorced and have children and want to date again dating sucks as it is. I mean, I imagine it sucks. I have friends that are single and they're like, this sucks. So imagine adding on a divorce and children. I imagine it would be really difficult to date. However, it doesn't have to be. Today we're talking to Jess Evans, who's a mom she's a certified divorce and co-parenting coach. She's a mom herself, and she's also been through divorce. So she has a lot of amazing info she's going to share with us today. So let's jump in. Hijazi, I'm so excited to talk to you today. This is such an important topic. I feel like dating in general sucks. Like I if you told me I had to go date somebody right now, I would be like, No, thanks, but just stay at home and do nothing. Because it sounds like so much work. And today we're going to talk about dating after divorce, divorced, Dating with kids are basically doing it all over again. Right. And I'm excited to talk to you. You've experienced it all. Before we dive in, do you want to tell everybody about yourself? Yes, of course. So, first of all, thank you so much for having me on. It's a subject that I'm very passionate about, you know, just helping of empowering women kind of get back into the dating force after divorce, but a little bit about me. So I'm a Wisconsin girl, much like yourself. I'm a co-parenting mama. I have two amazing kids. I have a ten year old son named Holden, a seven year old daughter named Sawyer. And I've been co-parenting now five years. I was like the typical got married very young, grew up with like those quote unquote daddy issues, Married like the first person that, like, swept me off my feet. We waited a while to have kids or married over ten years before we were divorced. And I think in our marriage, we really just grew apart. We got married so young we didn't really get the chance to, like, experience life outside of being married. And we did have a little bit of different parenting styles, I'll say. But we're at a really good place in our co-parenting relationship. It took quite a bit of work. So outside of that, I actually work for Michelle Dempsey. Moltke which listeners may know from Mom's moving on. She's kind of like the divorce guru. So we are really passionate just about helping women and men through divorce, keeping very child centered decision making, both when it comes to parenting plans, what you're choosing to raise your kids. I could also things like dating after divorce, like keeping your children in mind when you're going to start dating after you're divorced. Yeah. And these are things. There are so many things I feel like that you have to consider that I wasn't even, like, thinking about until I had to come up with some questions for this interview. I was like, my God. I mean, think about that. Like you just like before you have kids before you're married, you think about yourself and that's it. You don't have to think about what would you do now once you have kids? Like what? So I'm so excited we're talking about this. Divorce is very common and being lonely sucks. So let's get these ladies out there to date. Let's do it. Let's do it. All right, So how do you know? And I believe that this can be a personal thing, right? But how do you generally know that you're ready to date after divorce? Because I feel like divorce is a good grieving process. You go through all these emotions, like first you're mad, then you're sad, then you're you feel like this is the end for you. I feel like I would be pissed off a lot. So how do you get past all that and feel like, okay, I'm ready to let someone else in? Yeah, I think that's such a great question. It's something that comes up so often. There's like two sides, in my opinion to this. One is who was the one that initiated the divorce? Just in my experience with with clients of mine, if the woman was the one that initiated the divorce, a lot of time, especially when kids are involved, that grieving process and that like emotional disconnection happens for so long while they're still in the marriage, like they're they're grieving the relationship, they're trying to hang on for the kids. You know, they're not emotionally connected to their significant other. And then the divorce is vital and they're like, I'm ready. Like, I'm ready to do this. I'm ready to hop back into the dating pool. But on the flip side, if you know you're a woman, that's experiencing divorce and you were completely blindsided by it, or maybe your spouse had an affair, you can feel a lot of that anger and that resentment and that like uneasy ness of I never want to date again. I don't trust men. I don't want to put myself through that again. So, you know, I think it's it is very personal, like when, you know, you know, but I always tell people that there is like nothing wrong, in my opinion, with just like, casually dating. You know, I have clients that like, will hop on some of these dating apps and just like, I'm going to go get coffee or I'm going to go grab dinner, I'm just going to like, have a conversation with somebody just, you know, everyone wants to feel wanted and desired. So just kind of putting yourself out there with like low expectations in the beginning and I know I didn't put this question in the notes, but I'm curious, when you're out there looking for someone to date, whether it's casual or not, how do you put aside the like comparison and like the ex that you have like, this guy's into golf and my ex was into golf. There's no way like, how do you Because I feel like I would have a lot of bitterness and I could see that creeping into finding my next partner. Yeah, I mean, that's such a great question because it is something that comes up. You know, a lot of the clients that I work with, they're like, This feels so much like what my ex was like, Maybe if something as small as like a hobby that they like and I have to remind them that if you compare your potential new partner to your ex, you're going to find some sort of similarity. So try not to to look for those. Obviously, if there's like huge red flags with with this new person, like maybe your ex had like a temper or communication issues and you're seeing those early that that's something to look out for. But you know, to really focus on this potential new partner for who they are individually versus comparing them to your ex. Yeah. And I mean, do you feel like that's pretty hard, though, like for people to do? It's so hard. Yeah. I mean, I you know, I'm in a new relationship. I've been in a new relationship. And there are still things that come up that I'm like, And I just have to, like, you know, remind myself that they are two different people and that, you know, obviously, like, especially things like golf, watching sports, all of those things are so like man related, like you're going to find them in nearly everybody that you date. But I think, you know, along with that process before you're getting into dating, healing yourself is so important or those things are really going to stick out in the beginning. Like if you haven't fully healed and grieved your relationship, those are always going to be front and center when you are talking to somebody else, you may compare nearly everything to your ex and I think that's so important. I feel like and this can relate to anything in life, not just dating after divorce, but you're not healing yourself from the things that have caused these traumas for you, you're not going to be in a healthy state of mind moving forward. You know, especially when in relationships like if you're if you're so bitter and stuck in, you know, can't let go and. Yeah. And I think that's very I don't know personally I feel like that's common, but maybe you can speak to that statistics. You work with people directly. Yeah I think, you know, for me personally, too, one of the things that I had to look at was inward in myself, right? Of like, I got married young, like I mentioned, and I expected my then husband to, like, fix all of my emotional issues that were caused by my dad growing up that it took me, you know, getting divorced to be like, hey, it's not it wasn't his job to fix this. It isn't my next, you know, significant others job either. Like I have to look inward and do the work and really heal. And I always tell clients, you know, in any divorce, there is fault on both sides. Even if your ex was the one that cheated, just like looking as like, what can I improve on myself, whether it be emotionally, spiritually, whatever it is that I can become a healthier version and a happier version of myself and bring that into the next relationship. I love that that's so important. And the biggest question, though, is you have kids now we're talking about dating, dating after divorce with kids. So yeah. And like any age, right, Some some kids are so little, they don't know what's going on. And then you have your preteens and teens that are like, wait, what's going on? So how do you tell your kids? And I've always heard people say, well, I'm not going to let my kids even know or introduce them until we're serious. But that that's different for everyone. So I'm curious to hear so different. How do you tell your kids or do you even how that would look? What's the deal? Yeah, I mean, I think so much of that factors like you mentioned, the ages of children. What I started dating after divorce, my kids were relatively young. It was really important to me, one of that, like obviously my kids really liked my new significant other, but also that he knew that, like, kids are number one for me, Like they are my top priority. They're always going to be my top priority. But I think, you know, with younger kids, sometimes it can be a little bit easier for both the children and for you to introduce, you know, what some may consider sooner. And I'm always of the opinion of like introducing them as like this is my new friend and kind of establishing that relationship before you get into, you know, romantic partner and all of that stuff down the road. But if you're listening and you have like pre-teens, teens, especially teenage girls, like there can be a lot of push back. You know, I've worked with clients that have teenagers and like, how am I going to tell my daughter that I have this new person in my life and I always say, you know, you obviously are asking them for their permission or anything per se, but it's important to keep them involved in what's going on and just letting them know, you know, that there is this new person when the kids are a little bit older. I think that it is easier for them to kind of transition into being co-parents, spending time between two houses, you know, adjust to that transition before you drop this bomb of a new partner on that. So I was I don't know, I think pre-teen when my mom dated and it was like the first time after divorce and I had never seen my mom date before. And I remember hating every single person hating her for it. I and I don't I've never really, like, nurtured those feelings. Even now as an adult. I wonder like, I wonder what I need to do about all those feelings that I had, but and I didn't even realize it until you just said, especially teenage girls. Why? Why is it teenage girls? And and then how how do you talk to your teenagers? Like, what do you say? Yeah. Okay. Can you give me like, that exact scenario? Yeah. I mean, I think with with teenage girls, it's that that factor of like, there's that feeling of abandonment, right. Of like your even if you, if, if you're doing 5050 placement, they're still they're angry, they're hormonal, you know, all of those things are kind of happening. And then you throw this divorce into the mix and they may be, you know, they're their first like maybe they're starting to date and they're having trust issues with men because of that. So I think, you know, it's really important that you sit down with them. You know, when you're talking to the kids about the divorce, I'm always of the opinion that if both parents can do it together, that that's really important. But then when it comes into dating, just, you know, having those conversations and I've worked with clients on both ends of the spectrum where mom will sit down with her teenage daughters after the divorce, say, like a year later, like, you know, I have this new person. My life and their daughters are so happy because they've just seen their mom unhappy for so many years. And now she's found someone and they can see the difference and they're excited about it. But I've had the flip side where it's like, I'm going to hate them. I'm never going to talk to him again. Like there's no one that's going to replace my dad. And I think, you know, when you have that conversation, being completely transparent with that, like I have this new person in my life, they will never replace your dad. Your dad will always be your dad. This is just another person that, like, makes me really happy. And then eventually, when they meet, you know, and get to know them, that cares about you and that really wants what's best for you. And a lot of times just taking it slow and understanding their feelings, but also not just having the conversation once, Hey, this is my new partner and we don't talk about it again. Just keeping that conversation going is so important. Yeah, I love that. And allowing them to ask questions like What questions do you have? And yeah, I just I don't have very positive memories at all. And my mom is hasn't really dated since. I'm like, did I ruin her? Did I ruin her? But what boundaries are important to set with the person that you're dating early on as far as like boundaries, I'm divorced and I have kids, and this is these are my I know you said that you make sure they know like kids are number one. So what other boundaries would you recommend? Yeah, I think, you know, starting there with, like I'm first and foremost, like I'm a mom if, you know, like, here's my co-parenting schedule. But if my co-parent has to travel for work on this weekend, unexpectedly, like, the kids are going to be with me. And if you can't accept that, like that's an issue. I think one of the biggest things, too, is understanding that you are going to have to frequently communicate with your ex husband and like making sure you find somebody that's confident enough in themselves to not see that as like this major insecurity or like, you know, I've worked with clients that like say that they've dated and, you know, if they have any kind of communication with their ex, their new partner that they're dating, I'll say, Well, why don't you just get back with them? Like understanding that, like you're doing this for the children, this person is still going to be a play, a huge role in both of your lives. So I think that's important. I think a big red flag for me and the clients I work with is when you're dating somebody, if they're really pushing to meet the kids before you're comfortable with it can be a huge red flag. Like if you're not comfortable with it, they have to understand and respect where you're coming from. That's interesting. Why? Why would you say that's a red flag? is it because they're being too pushy or because some. We are definitely seeing that with being like pushy or just like, well, why are you so, like, into meeting my kids? Like, you know, I've had clients that like they've gone on two dates and then he's like, I want to meet your kids. And she's like, No, I'm not ready. You're like, I want to go to like, their soccer game before they've even talked to their or ex spouse about having a new partner. So just respecting your space and your needs and those boundaries, It's so important when you are hopping back into the dating world and what boundaries do you have to set with your ex and or around the respect of your ex? Right. Because in a perfect world you have a healthy relationship with your ex. You're communicating. It's about the kids, not you. And I'm specifically thinking about one situation that's in my personal life, somebody's personal to me. They don't tell each other when they're dating someone new. The kid is just finds out. And so in a perfect world, I imagine you would your ex would be in the know. So what boundaries are important to set with your ex and are you supposed to be telling your ex right away when you're dating? Like what? What is something that is a healthy way to approach it? Yeah. This is such an important question for so many reasons. One of them being that depending on where people live, like obviously we're in Wisconsin, even in a very amicable like not very highly contested divorce like I would consider I went through it can take like a year, like the divorce process can take a long time. So a lot of times people start dating in that period, you know, spouse has moved out. I'm ready to start dating. You have to this is like a tricky thing to navigate if you feel like it's really going to ruffle feathers in the divorce process. I always tell people, unless it's really serious, you don't have to tell your partner that you're dating. I have worked with a lot of people whose exes like to say I have a new girlfriend, like immediately just to kind of like, get back at her. But, you know, I think it's important to take it slow. And when you're comfortable to tell your ex and again, kind of like with the kids, you're not asking your ex for his permission to start dating again. You're just giving him that common respect of, hey, I have this new person in my life and, you know, I think it could be something serious. I think, you know, kind of circling back to when to tell the kids. I think it's important to tell your ex first just so that they have that heads up. The last thing that you want is to introduce your kids to your new partner. They go to Dad's house like, I met Mommy's new friend. And then that can cause a lot of issues in co-parenting. Again, you don't have to be like, are you okay with this? Because most of the time they're not going to be. But like, hey, I've been dating somebody for X amount of months. It I feel like it could be something serious. And I would like to introduce them to the kids. And I think most of the clients that I work with, it's important to have that conversation. And usually they're in agreeance that like they're not going to bring either of the parents are going to bring a new partner in that they don't see it being something long term. And as a mom of two little kids, I'm just imagining the scenario. I would be like, I would want to know who's around my kids, right? Yeah. So, like, if if you're dating, if my if I had an ex that he was dating all these people, I would. I would be like, What the fuck? Like, my kids don't need to be around all these people. So what advice do you have for women or men whose houses are out just not following the serial dating rules who are just dating and introducing their kids? They don't give a shit like they're not like, What do you? I want to be a respectful partner, but my partner is not willing to meet me. There. What advice do you have for someone that's stuck in that? Yeah, that. I mean, that's a tough question, right? And it's something that likely does happen to a lot of people. I think having a conversation with your ex from a standpoint of what is best for the kids, like how does he see the kids reaction after, you know, let's say they meet someone in September and then they're meeting someone else in December. Like what are their mannerisms? Like, what are their feelings towards this? Are they having those conversations with them? Because it is something that divorce does bring a lot of abandonment with kids. Even the most amicable divorces and things like that. Like there is a sense of I have to spend time in two houses, it's hard for kids and adding that introduction of new partners frequently can only make it worse. So I think is hard. Is it? It may be to have that conversation with your ex. It's so important, you know, And you could say like, Listen, I don't care if you date 30 people in a month, like you're not hurting me. Let's think about what's best for the kids right now. And then if you're someone who is partners, just shuts down and unwilling to communicate like I don't give a shit what you think I don't want to talk about. This is none of your business. Then I guess you you do. You write them a lot. Like, I just feel like that happens a lot, right? You have the asshole partner who's unwilling to cooperate, doesn't want to hear a word you say, and I'm just going to do what I want. I don't care what you say. And then you're left with all these, like, worries and concerns about your kids. And what what do you. I know, I know. That's really hard question. Yeah, but what would you say to a woman that came to you and was like, I don't know what else to do? What I heard that point, it just, you know, if he is just absolutely refusing and you feel like you've taken the high road and you've tried to talk to him or you have written a letter or an email or tried things over the phone, then I think it's time for you to kind of step in and talk to the kids. Like, how is this making you feel and kind of be their voice of reason through all of this, like validating if they're like, I don't like meeting all of these people. Like, I know that's really hard for you and just kind of empowering them depending on their age, obviously, to maybe advocate for themselves a little bit, to talk to dad a little bit, but to kind of be that safe place for them so they know if something's bothering them, they can always come and talk to you. I love that. That's important. Make sure your kids know that you're there safe space. And I feel so sad for people who have to have relationships like that. So what are your personal tips on finding a healthy relationship after a divorce? Like I know you've been there, you've done that, you've talked to a lot of clients. What is what are some of the, like, best tips that you have? Yeah, I think, you know, like we talked about initially doing the work on yourself, first and foremost is so important to really heal and grieve. It is You mentioned earlier, it's a grieving process. You know, you're grieving the life that you thought you were going to have for yourself, for your kids. So first of all, taking that time and what the grief process look like for me is going to look different for and for other people. And then taking the time. I love lists and just writing down like, what are some things you're looking for in a new partner? You know, maybe there was a hobby that you really enjoyed, but your ex absolutely hated it, so you never did it. So is that something that's important for you in a new relationship? I'm a big fan of like taking the work to figure out like your love language, your communication style, getting to know that about yourself so you can look for that in a partner. But in the beginning, just like really having fun with it, you know, I've I've worked with clients that are like, it feels so foreign to me. Like someone recently actually reached out to me and she's like, I've been dating this guy and he like, cares about my feelings and he checks in with me and for people listening that can feel so forward for and if you didn't have that in your marriage, you can be like, What the hell is this? And like, you put this wall up and you push this person away. But to kind of lean into that, you know, if that's what you were needing in your last relationship and you're getting this from somebody like you deserve that. What is that? Attachments style called? I just learned about this. You got the anxious attachment and then you got the what's the one where you're just like, I'm done. I avoid it. Avoid it. So is it is it common for women who come from unhealthy relationships and go into ones that are healthy to be like, Whoa, yeah, I know. But it is so it is so common. And we talk a lot about like that. You know, you kind of you may have been that more anxiously attached person in your marriage and then you become a little bit more avoidant because it feels so weird. The other, you know, attachment that comes up is coded tendency. And we talk about that when you are going through the divorce process and even when you're starting to date again, you have to really work hard to break what we call the marital cycle of codependency. It's a little bit different than your your typical codependency, but it's more of you were sharing so much of your life and information and, you know, day to day activities with your ex when you were married. It can be really common for moms, especially in the beginning, to still share so much of that with their ex. And unfortunately, like it's a realization I came to early, like your ex doesn't give a shit like I was the one that I was a stay at home mom. So I would be like we'd be at the zoo and I would set the pictures and I would do this. And even when we were going through the divorce, a big look at this. And I didn't get a response. And I'm like, What the hell? And then I realized, like, he's not my husband anymore. I shouldn't be sharing that information. So you kind of have to work through those emotions, too. And I think that's something that you should work on before you're dating. Or you may find yourself sharing every bit of personal information with your ex that you just don't have to do that anymore. Yeah, I could see that being really hard, though. Like, you just want to talk about moments that you had with your kids because you, you each know your kids like the same. Right? Better than anyone. Right. I could see that being very hard to not have. Wow, That's deep. All right. Just thank you so much for this conversation. It's such an important conversation. Need to be talked about more because divorce, like I said, is common and we got to be loved. So before we start off here, can you tell us where we can find you on socials? Yeah, so I am ammo coach just on Instagram. And then I'm also frequently on Instagram. So moving on because that's, you know, Michelle and I work side by side helping moms and dads and mostly children kind of through this whole process. I love it. I love that you center your work around the kids. That's so important. Thank you, Jazz. I'll put everything in the footnotes. I'll make sure I link everything to you, too. That's a thank you. So nice to meet you. Thanks. Have a good one. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, make sure you leave a review. Follow on socials. Subscribe to the podcast. I love reading your reviews. They mean the world to me. And of course, come back next week.