PAIN: How we experience and manage emotional pain

Chrissy opens today’s episode with a meditation on experiencing discomfort in our bodies, and then shares the definition of the word PAIN, and invites us to consider the question: how do you manage emotional pain in your life?

Katie Kaufmann also joins the conversation to share her experience of twenty years of chronic back pain and her work as a pain recovery coach. Together, Chrissy and Katie discuss the relationship between the brain and pain, the disappointments and rewards along the pain recovery journey, Katie’s model for the three spokes of pain, and her favorite breathing exercise.

Then Chrissy shares this week’s book recommendation, The Way Out: A Revolutionary, Scientifically Proven Approach to Healing Chronic Pain by Alan Gordon and Alon Ziv.

And in the end, Chrissy encourages you to ask yourself:

• What role does pain play in your life?
• How do you manage emotional pain?
• What are the societal implications of how we perceive and treat pain?

☀️ My memoir, Finding Sunlight, is here! Learn more & order your copy today

Transcript

[0:00] Music.

[0:10] Hi, welcome to Stirred by Words, a podcast that uses the power of words to unlock your writing and wellness practices. I'm your host, Chrissy Holm, writer, editor, and wellness advocate.
This show is about my love for words, writing, and wellness, and I'm passionate about learning from others. Grateful to have you join us.

[0:45] Music.

[0:51] Today's meditation is inspired by this week's word, pain.
Find a quiet and comfortable place to sit or lie down. Close your eyes and take a few deep breaths. Focus on the sensation of the air moving in and out of your body.

[0:58] Music.

[1:40] Imagine that with each inhale, you're breathing in healing and relaxation.
And with each exhale, you are releasing tension and discomfort.
As thoughts arise, gently acknowledge them and then bring your focus back to your breath.

[2:02] Music.

[2:44] Now it's time for today's word. Pain. Miriam Webster has many different definitions for pain, and it's a noun and a verb. Here are a few. Physical suffering associated with disease, injury, or other bodily disorder. Mental distress. The suffering experienced during childbirth.
Or to give or feel pain. Here are a few fun facts about the word pain.
The word pain has been used in English since the 14th century.
Phrases that contain the word pain are pain in the ass, feeling someone's pain, and no pain, no gain.
Pain can be classified into several different types, such as acute pain, chronic pain, neuropathic pain, and psychogenic pain.
And pain can vary greatly between individuals.
Other synonyms for pain include agony, discomfort, misery, and wound.

[3:47] Today's question is how do you manage emotional pain in your life?
So when I looked up how to define emotional pain, I found that it refers to negative feelings that arise from experiences such as loss, rejection, betrayal, or trauma.
And of course, there's many ways to look at emotional pain, but for the sake of this episode, I'm gonna focus on that definition.
When I was thinking about the different experiences in my life that have resulted in emotional pain, I'm reminded really of that initial sadness I felt.
I can feel it in my body, my chest caving as if it slows down.
Depending on the situation, I've been through waves of guilt and anger too.
And how I've managed these events in my life is well first admitting and acknowledging that it's hard and knowing that it might hurt for some time.
I also acknowledge that it might not go away, but my pain isn't to get rid of it.
My focus is to know that as time passes, each day will be a little easier, and yet understand that there are gonna be tough days along the way.
For some tangible actions, going for a walk, talking to a friend or loved one, and meditation and breathing has really helped me.
And reminding myself that self-care is important, especially in times of pain.

[5:09] Music.

[5:22] Today's guest is Katie Kaufman. Katie Kaufman is a National Board Certified Health and Wellness Coach specializing in recovery from chronic pain. After a nearly 20-year struggle with chronic back pain, she discovered the underlying cause of her pain had nothing to do with any structural issues, but a misfiring of her brain's danger signals. She found relief and recovery through connection with her central nervous system and lifestyle habits that supported nervous system regulation. She now helps others to do the same. We're happy to have her join us. Welcome Katie.
Hello Katie, welcome to the show. Hi, I'm excited to speak with you today. Absolutely, I'm excited to speak with you too and we're gonna dive right in to talking about pain. Well, so you've had nearly 20 years of chronic back pain and sciatic pain and you've tried endless techniques to to relieve it, eventually leading you to become a National Board Certified Health and Wellness Coach.
And obviously that's a drastic summation of the process, but with pain being the focus of this episode, I'm curious, what has been the most challenging and rewarding parts of this journey for you?

[6:36] I mean, the challenges are endless, but, so yeah, my pain started when I was in college.
So a lot of my years that I would have been in my physical prime and out there doing all the things, I feel we're a little bit stunted by...
My pain. But I still was able to do so many things. And while I was experiencing pain, I was living in Europe for that first year before I got surgery. So I still was able to do all that.
But there weren't great beds. I was sleeping on the floor a lot instead of the bed.

[7:21] And I didn't have all of my community around me and the comforts of home.
Home later in the pain journey, like I would get really excited because a remedy would work, you know, the first time I tried it and then not the second time and fail and that's a bit of a pattern with this idea of neuroplastic pain because it's actually a patterning in your brain rather than, you know, a structural issue.
So I would get really excited. Like I remember the first time I got a role thing session and, you know, got really deep body work done.
And afterwards, I was feeling amazing. I was like walking down the street because I wanted to keep that like a good feeling going before I got in my car and drove a half an hour home.
And by the time I got home, it was gone. I was wondering, yeah.
There's certain disappointments along the way where you feel like, oh, this is it.
Then it not being it. But on the flip side, like the rewards have been so many, like I've learned a ton about my body and how it works. I know so much about movement and posture and and stretching and.

[8:37] For a while, I was a massage therapist. I became a massage therapist thinking like, oh, I'll help others that have chronic pain too.
And I learned a lot about like, you know, chronic inflammation, nutrition regarding.

[8:54] You know, mitigating chronic inflammation.
And, you know, above all, like I have so much empathy for anyone else that's going through this experience just because I've been there too.
So that's been all stuff that I've taken into my practice as a pain recovery coach and helping other people kind of learn how to glean their own like little rewards from this experience, which is oftentimes really awful and debilitating and like learning how to see, you know, who you are now, how who you are now is so much more valuable than, you know, the old version of you, as you've gone on this journey and you know so much more.
Definitely, it's like a transformation of feeling like you can't do anything about it or like you said, going through those ups and downs to, you know, I can find ways to manage through this pain.
Yeah, and not only manage, but recover from it.
Wow, I mean, that's incredible to hear just how you've gone from.

[10:13] Trying so many different things to like, okay, now I know my body and, and I wonder, so like some of, obviously we're talking about physical pain, but pain obviously is broad. So how do different types of pain, physical, emotional, psychological, intersect and impact each other? Well, I mean, so all pain is, is, is a danger signal from your brain saying there is something wrong, we're going to send pain to your to your body to have you pay attention and be careful. So you know, whether that's, you know, putting your hand on a hot stove, and the pain comes to make you pull your hand away, or whether you feel, endangered in some ways, because you have thoughts that, you know, you're never enough. That's, that's my my own personal trigger, but that constant sort of, it's not psychological pain, but it's sort of emotional related danger signal is triggering that pain response.
And there's a lot of science into the fear pain cycle that the more the fear is activated, the more the pain gets activated, which activates the fear again, and you're kind of stuck in that loop.
So, um.

[11:42] The same areas of the brain are triggered whether the pain is from a broken leg or a broken heart.

[11:53] Our brain can't really differentiate that kind of difference from those sort of danger signals.
While chronic pain is this sort of habit that our brain makes, acute pain is a little bit different where, you know, the pain typically will last for a shorter period of time and, you know, that body part will heal. And, you know, that sort of six to eight weeks that the doctor always gives you is normal healing time. But when it persists beyond then, there is a chance that our brain has kind of developed this pain response pattern. That's what I help people kind of figure out and then break. Yeah, wow. It's so interesting to kind of think about the different, aspects of like it really they're so connected like physical pain and emotional like meant like you said it's your brain that's really getting in this cycle. Yeah and sometimes you know it's the brain just misinterprets a signal from your body as dangerous when it's not. Absolutely.
Be associated with a danger before or you know at some point you did hurt that part of your body. So.

[13:14] It just can get confused as far as the stimulus it receives and how it interprets that stimulus.
Absolutely. So I know you talked about that's kind of like what you do to help clients. So I know on your website it describes the three spokes you discovered to approach your pain. So structural, chemical, and emotional. Can you describe these at just a high level and maybe a tip on how to implement each of them.

[13:43] Yeah, so I mean, I, I kind of developed that idea, just because all of the parts of our bodies work in in conjunction with each other. And, you know, obviously, a lot of us and myself included first sort of attack the structural element, maybe I'll, you know, just go to physical therapy, and things will fix itself, then or, you know, I'll get bodywork.
So, there can be some support with that structural model, but if you're only focusing on that, then you're missing out on lots of different other systems of your body that are also working to keep this pain cycle alive.
So, with the structural piece, it can be really helpful for you to, number one, keep moving.
I feel like, you know, because the pain comes and we get scared about it, we stop moving our bodies.
So like knowing how to move well, knowing how to move with intention, knowing how to use the right muscles to support our bodies, posturally, et cetera, can help us give greater confidence to our movement.
So I think, you know, continuing movement and feeling confident moving is really important.
Absolutely. I heard once motion is lotion. Like you gotta keep yourself moving.
You know, just objects in motion tend to stay in motion. Yep.

[15:13] And then there's, I guess the chemical piece is that, you know, there are other ways that our system can feel endangered.
And sometimes that has to be, has to do with, you know, what we are consuming, what we are taking into our bodies and whether that's, You know?
Good for us or not, like, you know, clearly a ton of sugar, tons of alcohol, tons of, you know, processed foods, over time create inflammation in our systems and inflammation, just like pain, is a danger signal. There's a foreign invader, there's something wrong, we're going to come in with all the red blood cells and we're going to heat up this area and we're going to make it harder for it to move because we need to protect this area. So really for me cleaning up my, my diet and knowing you know what foods are triggering for me was really helpful.
Turns out sugar, alcohol, those are two big ones for me.

[16:24] And then yeah and then the emotional piece clearly is one of the bigger ones that I work with just because our our modern day society is so focused on production and drivenness and stress and this ongoing chronic stress feeds that sort of chronic fear cycle which kind of, you know relates to that whole fear pain cycle so you know that emotional piece can also be triggered from, you know, things like childhood trauma or other stressors that are past, but we have developed patterns like the one I mentioned before, my sense I'm not good enough.

[17:14] Same. That program, you know, in our brain and that little constant, you know, naggling voice can keep us feeling unsafe. And then what happens when we feel unsafe? Well, the danger signal comes on, the pain signal comes on. So really being able to sit with different emotions, being able to allow them to all exist and all have a space.
I know for a lot of women that I work with, anger is a big one that, you know, they have been taught from a very young age that it's not okay to express anger and that, you know, anger is dangerous, whether anger had been directed at them, or when they got angry, they were told to just, that's not okay, you can't express that emotion.
So helping people learn how to express those things in a safe way and knowing that it's.

[18:13] Just an energy in our body, it's not good or bad, it's not dangerous or not, and allowing it to run its full course and complete.
When we kind of concentrate on the sensation of the emotion and not the story that we're telling ourselves about the emotion, it doesn't last all that long. It lasts like maybe three minutes and then, you know, we're on to another thing. But when we like just keep replaying our old stories again and again about why that's there or trying to make it go away or change it or shift it, then it persists. Absolutely. It's that cycle like you're talking about. It's you might have it once in your head, but it's going to keep coming back and over and over and over. So those are kind of the three areas that I work in and I firmly believe like all of those things in tandem, really support our systems as a whole because we're not just a nervous system, we're not just a musculoskeletal system, we're not just a, you know, a digestive tract.

[19:26] There's a lot of layers to us. us. So thinking even bigger and you talked a little bit about society. How does pain shape our understanding of ourselves and and the world around us.

[19:38] Well, there's so much to be taught about sitting still and listening to our bodies, which we are not conditioned to do very often.
It's get on to the next thing, push through, put a band-aid on it, keep going, or the opposite of that is like sort of wallowing and, you know, sort of self pity and, you know, I'm never going to be able to, you know, do anything. Yeah, but it's it's it. What I hope to teach people when I work with them is is the power of being able to sit with that sensation or sit with that emotion and really feel like what is happening in this present moment without judgment just getting really curious about it and allowing it to be however it is right now and to begin to listen to what that sensation needs like what do you really need right now? What is what is the deeper need when you talk about you know sort of childhood trauma pieces of it.
It's often we have an unmet need from a long time ago, and our body keeps reminding us, hey, remember that thing that I really needed and didn't get?
Well, I still need it.

[21:07] So it's a bit about, you know, listening to the language of our bodies, which at first is a totally foreign language.
And it's just sounds like pain, right?
And then the more we sit with it and the more we kind of open ourselves to hearing what our bodies are saying to us, the more we begin to hear, oh, I just need to be comforted right now or I just need to be heard right now or I just need, you know, maybe a hand on this part of my body and are rocking right now just to feel safe and feel like I'm seen or loved or heard.
So it's a bit about sitting with it and like having the self-compassion to give ourselves the things that we need.
And then as a broader sense, once we're like able to create this sort of sense of self-compassion, which is a whole practice of meditation in a way. Yeah.
We're able to send compassion to.

[22:19] Others and and The rest of the world as a whole so, you know by tapping into our own pain we can feel, you know, this sounds sort of woo-woo, but like the pain of, of all beings on earth and and and know that sort of interconnectedness of you know, we all.

[22:40] Have pain from time to time. We all.

[22:43] Need care from time to time and and our suffering is not unique.
We're not the only ones. There's a bunch of us that are going through this and how can we both give compassion to ourselves and compassion to each other?

[23:03] Yeah, that's so powerful. It really, you know, it starts with us, which then it can have a ripple effect to others. Yeah, it's difficult because we're not used to giving compassion to ourselves.
I talk with so many people that are just people pleasers and want to care for others, put others first all the time in detriment to themselves.

[23:29] So, you know, starting to practice a little bit with others and then say, okay, well, what if that other was you?
You know, if somebody has a child or something, I said, well, what would you do if your child was in pain and really hurting in this moment, how would you comfort them?
Can you turn that back to yourself? Ooh, yeah, that's so good.
And that kind of leads me to my next question, actually, perfectly.
So I'm just wondering, how do we support others who are experiencing pain while also taking care of ourselves?
And like, what's your top self-care tip to listening to the body.
Oh, I have so many self-care tips. I mean, first of all, like, it's hard work. Like this, this work is, is very difficult. And there's lots of complexities in, in personalities and, and, you know, things coming out backwards when people are hurting. So I just kind of approach my work with a different formula for success. And that formula is like, if my intention is there.

[24:42] If I put forth some effort and I'm leaning into my values, that equals success. Versus like, if I get this person out of pain, because a lot of that's not up to me. So, So letting go of some responsibility for fixing somebody else because only they can do that.
Before each session, I do, you know, put a little hand on my heart, do a little bit of rocking, come into myself, do some breathing.
One breathing exercise I love to teach people and I do myself every day is called a physiological sigh. And it's basically a double inhale. So you inhale, and then you inhale some more to like, just fill up the whole system. And then you sigh it out. And for whatever reason, that calms my nervous system down really quickly. And I can do like three of those and be good to go. So, I love it. I'm like trying not to do it right now. But they are that sounds, oh, that's how we can do it right now. If you want to.
To. I mean, I think that's great. I love that. Well, obviously there's tons of breathing techniques out there, but that one sounds like it just like washes something away.

[26:02] And yes, physiological side does it kind of releases on on that physiological level and you know sort of my approach to pain is not your typical Western medicine. you know take this pill, do this exercise, you know, I will fix you expert role. And so a lot of times people have a hard time kind of understanding it and hearing it. And I try to explain it the best I can and then also release any sort of responsibility for them to get it in that moment.
For myself.
I was exposed to this concept many times before it kind of clicked for me.

[26:50] I remember reading a book like 10 years ago about this and just kind of putting aside, that's bullshit, that's not me. I kept hearing other echoes of that through podcasts or other experts and I was like, oh my gosh, they're all talking about the same thing. Maybe I should should investigate this a little bit more.
So, you know, people are only ready to hear it when they're ready to hear it.
As much as I feel like an evangelist for, you know, everyone needs to kind of get on board with this, it's, I can't convince anyone of anything. So I try to let go of that.
Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, it sounds like you've learned a lot of information on your journey and I'm sure there's a lot more information regarding pain and pain management and pain recovery.
So how do you kind of stay up to date with all the different techniques, research, and if you have any go-to resources for your clients?
Yeah, I try to stay up to date. There's being lots of scientific studies recently.

[28:00] Where they're putting people in fMRI machines and kind of looking at the regions of their brain that are lighting up when they're in a chronic pain state.
And then they're going through a process similar to what I explained.
The process that they used was called PRT, which is pain reprocessing therapy, which is a kind of a series of being able to sit with that sensation and send messages of safety to our body body and kind of reprogram our brains to interpret safe stimuli as safe rather than dangerous.
So there was a big study done in 2019. It's called the Boulder Back Pain Study that was done with the University of Colorado in.

[28:52] Boulder.
And I'm a part of a few different organizations. One is the Psychophysiologic Disorder Association, Psychophysiologic Disorder Association.
That's a mouthful. It's ppdassociation.org. It's a website that has a ton of information, both studies, resources, doctors that are doing this kind of work, therapists that are doing this kind of work.

[29:31] That like all the go to information is on that on that website I often send people there.
And then I'm a member of a group in England called Serpa, which is sort of a similar group but but smaller and mostly focused in the English speaking world I would say it's not just England but you know there's people from Australia, South Africa, areas that are part of that association.
So that's where I get a lot of my information, really smart doctors that are leading this effort.
Howard Schubner is one, David Clark is one, Alan Gordon is another, Laura Mermosley, who's a neuroscientist out in Australia.
So there's lots of folks kind of, you know, helping to get the word out about this, chronic pain being a brain-driven phenomena.

[30:35] Absolutely, yeah. I mean, it sounds like there's a lot of information out there, a lot of good resources, people.
I'm sure you could probably go on. I mean, it's endless, but that's awesome.
And I've learned so much from you just right now. Like that's very cool.
And I really appreciate you sharing. I know we're kind of getting towards the end of the conversation.
So this is kind of that part in the episode where I ask each of my guests to share a unique piece or reflection related to a word, whether it's fiction, nonfiction, poem, or personal experience.
And Katie, if you have your piece ready, we would love to hear what you have written on the word pain and just kind of let us know what you're sharing and feel free to read it.
This is what I wrote.
It's completely unedited.
Hey, there's something going on here you need to pay attention to.
I think it's probably dangerous.
Hey, stop what you're doing and listen. I don't feel safe right now.
Don't make any false moves.
Now that I have your attention, Let me tell you what I need.
No, don't push me away. I'm trying to tell you that. Oh boy, oh, oh, owie!

[32:04] You can't fix it like that. You can't just ignore me. I'll find you when you're sleeping.
The more you resist, the more I'll persist.
Don't get mad at me. I'm on your side. It's not my fault.
If you would just listen to me... Oh, you're tired now, I see.
Now I see. So am I. What's that? Curiosity? Kindness? You see me. You finally hear me.
Thank you.

[32:59] Wow, that was so fantastic, Katie, I really appreciate hearing that poem and it was great.
It was it was really good.
Thank you so much for your time and energy today, Katie. It's been a pleasure to talk about pain and your expertise and experiences around it.
So thank you so much for your time.
Well, thank you. And I'm just happy to to talk about it further with anybody that that wants to.
Fantastic, and where can people reach you?
My website is probably the best way, and that's Coach Katie, coach, K-A-T-I-E, wellbeing.com.
Fantastic. All right, thanks again, Katie. We appreciate you being on the show. Thank you.

[33:44] Music.

[33:56] Today's book recommendation is The Way Out, a revolutionary, scientifically-proven approach to healing chronic pain by Alan Gordon and Alan Ziv. Alan Gordon, a psychotherapist and the founder of the Pain Psychology Center in Los Angeles, was in grad school when he started experiencing chronic pain and it completely derailed his life. He saw multiple doctors and received many diagnoses, but none of the medical treatments helped. Frustrated with conventional pain management, he developed Pain Processing Therapy, or PRT, a mind-body protocol that eliminated his own chronic pain and has transformed the lives of thousands of his patients. PRT is rooted in neuroscience, which has shown that while chronic pain feels like it's coming from the body, in most cases it's generated by the misfiring of pain circuits in the brain.
PRT is a system of psychological techniques that rewires the brain to help out the cycle of chronic pain. The way out brings PRT to the readers. It combines accessible science and a concrete step-by-step plan to teach sufferers how to heal their own chronic pain.
Before we wrap up this episode, I encourage you to grab a pen and paper, notebook, or your phone to write down the answer to the following questions.

[35:15] What role does pain play in your life? How do you manage emotional pain?
What are the societal implications of how we perceive and treat pain?
Feel free to pause the episode and come back to these questions later.
If you have any thoughts on this episode, suggestions for a future episode, or if you or someone you know wants to be a guest on the show, show, contact me via my website at www.chrissyholm.com.

That's C-H-R-I-S-S-Y-H-O-L-M.
Thanks for listening to another episode of Stirred by Words, meditations and conversations about writing and wellness.
This has been your host, Chrissy Holm.
Tune in to future podcast episodes and until next time, Keep learning new words, stay healthy, and stay curious.

[36:09] Music.