IMPACT: How to build effective collaborations to achieve impact

Chrissy opens today’s episode with a meditation on creating positive change, then shares the definition of the word IMPACT, and invites us to consider the question: how can we build effective collaborations to achieve impact?

Dara Beevas and Amy Quale of Wise Ink Creative Publishing also join the conversation to share the impact stories have had on their lives and communities. Together, they discuss where publishing meets activism, how books cultivate empathy, and what makes an effective collaboration.

Then Chrissy shares this week’s book recommendation, Impact: A Step-By-Step Plan to Create the World You Want to Live In by Christen Brandt and Tammy Tibbetts.

And in the end, Chrissy encourages you to ask yourself:

• How can we build effective collaborations to achieve impact?
• How do your beliefs and values impact your life decisions?
• What impact do you want to make in this world?

☀️ My memoir, Finding Sunlight, is here! Learn more & order your copy today

Transcript

[0:00] Music.

[0:10] Hi, welcome to Stirred by Words, a podcast that uses the power of words to unlock your writing and wellness practices. I'm your host, Chrissy Holm, writer, editor, and wellness advocate.
This show is about my love for words, writing, and wellness, and I'm passionate about learning from others. Grateful to have you join us.
Today's meditation is inspired by this week's word, impact.
Let's start by finding a place to sit or lie down comfortably.
Close your eyes and breathe for a few moments.
Relax your body and calm your mind.

[0:58] Music.

[1:14] Now visualize yourself in the center of an oval. This oval represents your impact on the world around you.

[1:26] Music.

[1:35] Think about the different areas in your life – work, health, relationships, personal growth, spirituality, and community.

[1:43] Music.

[3:07] When you're ready, return to your day feeling grateful for the opportunity to make a difference and have a renewed sense of purpose.
Now it's time for today's word, impact. Merriam-Webster has a few definitions for the verb and noun impact.
To have a strong effect on, to hit or cause to hit with force, force, and the force of impression of one thing on another, a significant or major event.

[3:44] Here are a few fun facts about the word impact. Impact was first used as a verb in 1601 and then later a noun in 1781.

[3:56] The word impact is commonly used in scientific, business, and social contexts.
For example, in physics, impact refers to the collision between two objects.
In environmentalism, impact often refers to the effect that human activities, such as pollution, deforestation, or climate change, have on the natural world.
In a social or cultural context, impact might refer to the effect that a particular event, movement, or idea has had on society.
Other synonyms for impact include move, impress, shock, strike, crash, smash, and bump.
Today's question is, how can we build effective collaborations to achieve impact?
If we want to make an impact on the world, I believe we need to build effective collaborations.
If we collectively work together toward a common purpose, such as equal opportunities for underserved communities and leverage diverse perspectives, it can bring forth meaningful change. To build a partnership, it takes clear goals and expectations, open communication, mutual trust and respect, and being open to compromise and flexibility. Of course, all that isn't always easy, but with an open mind, leaning into discomfort and knowing you you don't know everything is crucial to making an impact.

[5:25] Music.

[5:37] Today's guests are Dara Beevas and Amy Quale. Dara is the co-founder and chief strategic officer of Wise Inc. Creative Publishing. She has been in the publishing industry for more than a decade. She's the author of the indie author Revolution and has a master's degree in publishing from George Washington University. She was selected as an emerging writer by the Givens Foundation for African American Literature and was named a 2016 Bush Foundation Fellow.
She lives with her husband and daughter. Our second guest is Amy. Amy is also the co-founder and chief publishing officer of Wise Inc. Creative Publishing. She has been in the publishing industry for 15 years and has worked with large and small presses and coached hundreds of authors. She co-founded Wysink Creative Publishing in 2012 as a boutique independent publisher with a focus on publishing books to make a difference. She has an MA in English, is a 2017 graduate of Yale School of Management's Leadership Strategies in Book Publishing, and was a 40 Under 40 honoree in 2022 through the Minneapolis St. Paul Business Journal.
She lives in the Twin Cities with her family. I'm happy to have them join us today.
Welcome, Dara and Amy.

[7:00] All right. Hello, Dara. And hi, Amy. Welcome to the show. Hello. Thank you so much.
Super happy to have you both. So you both are the co-founders of Wising Creative Publishing, which really focuses on publishing books that make a difference in the world. And since our word this episode is impact, how do you think books generally impact the world? And really, what got each of you interested in the publishing fields?
For me, books have become our recorded history. It becomes the lens through which future generations will view this time, as has been the case historically since the printing press was invented, and before that, when books were handwritten. And so, to me, it's our responsibility to be able to elevate lots of diverse voices. As publishers, it's our responsibility to bring lots of perspectives to the table and to do so with very clear intention because the default hasn't always worked for us. And I think it's created a skewed sense of reality and how we got to this place as a species over centuries and centuries. So, I mean, to me, that's what matters in this work. When I think about, you know, when I get lofty, right, and I'm thinking about why I'm passionate about about this work. It's because I feel like this is this is a place where I can.

[8:28] Use my talents to affect change, not just for now, but for generations to come.

[8:35] That's so well said. I think I would only add that, you know, I think that books are not, necessarily the tool for impacting the world. I think it's really the stories within the books, For me, I think story is just really medicine.
I think story is balm. I think story is salve. I think story is really one of the ways in which we extract from folks the empathy we need to heal almost everything.
And so when I think about story, and you can find story in the most drab, uninteresting data field annual report.

[9:19] And if you can't find story, then it isn't going to do its business.
So what I love about YZINC is that we connect with people and it isn't necessarily that we're trying to be generators of best-selling books.
We are trying to empower folk to use their story as a weapon for impact.
And so that is the work that gets me up every day. That's why I continue with this work because I know that story is how we...
Achieved rights for women and queer folks and Black and brown people.
Story is why we're talking about banned books and we're talking about these really hard things, abortion rights and all of these things. That's because we know the stories of the women who aren't able to access what they need for their healthcare.
We know, personally, Amy and I have talked to how many women who have lost children in utero and who have struggled with these really hard, life-wrenching decisions around what happens when my baby is no longer alive in my womb.
I know personally from story how to form my ideas around how to make impact there.
So that piece about story is the only thing I wanted to add. And then you asked, how did I become interested in publishing? I mean, honestly, I've always just been a book lover.
And I think that it's so cool to see kids read.

[10:48] I remember my first chapter book that I fell in love with. It was a book called Striped Ice Cream.
And I just think that books are just cool. And I found out in college that I really liked bringing people together to tell their stories.
I was part of a literary magazine and that fire still burns almost 25 years later.
What interests me about this too is that we have authors who have lost children to gun violence.
We have authors who are at the center of the front lines, social justice lawyers fighting for equal rights and fighting against police brutality and fighting against these systems of oppression that keep our world unfair, unequitable, unsafe.
And so to me, it's so meaningful to be able to give them a tool, to use my skills to give them a tool to go out and make change.
It might not be that I'm, you know, standing there, you know, at every protest, or and I might not be the person who is going and telling these stories on, you know, national news stations, but our authors are people who are doing those things.
And so just knowing that I can play that role even behind the scenes, that's what keeps me in this work, certainly.

[12:13] Yeah, both of your responses are super powerful and.

[12:18] You know, you both have said there's a mission behind the stories that the authors are telling, and it sounds like that's kind of how your mission plays into it as well. It's like, that's what keeps you coming back and supporting those people that are part of the movements, or maybe even smaller than that, but sharing our stories is so crucial.
So kind of on that same thought, obviously it sounds like you have worked with a variety of different topics, but what have been some of the most impactful stories that stand out to you in the last 10 years, whether it's historical event movement, cultural heritage or identity, social change, activism, anything along those lines, but what stands out to you in those moments?
In those moments?
That's such a great question. I mean, there are so many stories that have just really influenced me through the years.

[13:21] And we've had, I think, I mean, I'm in my early 40s, 42. And I just think that this has been one of the most turbulent years, series of years we've had since 2020 to 2023.
It's just been a really turbulent time. And, you know, one story that I'm really proud of is J is for Justice by N'Kiva Levy Armstrong here in our community. Her book is a picture book for children, and it's about a little girl who learns about protesting. And I'm really excited about that project because I really think that our babies are really going to infuse into this world a level of empathy that we so desperately need right now.
And I think that a book.

[14:06] Advocating for them to show up how they want to and need to for whatever it is that they want to have an impact in helping shift.
I'm excited for that, because I just don't think there was ever a book that I came across when I was young that said, here are some chants. Here, you know, a protest is normal and natural, and here's what happens, and here's how a community can influence change that needs to happen on a community level.
I would have loved that.
And I think that I grew up believing that a protest was a once-in-a-lifetime thing that happened every now and then.
I remember being in high school when the Million Man March happened, and how cool and exciting that was, and how so many young boys my age, 15 at the time, participated.
And I just remember thinking, I want to do something like that.
And so I think that now it's not even a thing for young people to be involved in a protest for climate change or human rights, whatever it is.
And I'm really excited that this is a book that is already reaching thousands of households.

[15:17] Absolutely. I mean, a couple of projects that I've been really excited about recently, we published a book last year called Acres.
And it's based on the idea of building generational wealth for Black people in this country by developing real estate and purchasing real estate and owning property and this author.
She's just a powerhouse, but she started building.
Her wealth through real estate when she was in college. It's called Acres because, of course, 40 acres and a mule was the promise that was never fulfilled.
We are going on centuries of lost potential generational wealth for this community.
She's saying, I found this outlet for that.
Her name is Kendra Barnes and her book is called Acres. To me, just raising that profile of just here's one pathway, but also just making clear.

[16:21] That, hey, here is exactly how this community has lost out on wealth building power over these generations, helps make the case for reparations and brings the past to the present, again, through stories and storytelling in a way that I think few things can.
Absolutely. I mean, it's been said, but the stories are powerful to tell so that I think I heard something once like it's a window into somebody's life or a mirror into your own life.
Like you need to kind of have that that balance.
And that's why stories are so powerful.
But I will just say to our authors are making change in other areas.
You know, we have a children's book author.
She wrote a book called Katie Has Two Grandpas because her her father came out in his later years.
And she realized there were no children's books that, you know, showed their family.
There also was no category on Amazon for LGBTQ families and children's books.

[17:26] So, you know, this author actually created that category by reaching out to Amazon when her book went live.
So it's not just changing, I think, what families are visible, what stories are visible, what truths about our shared history are available to bear witness to, but actually changing the systems and the structures that bring those stories to the forefront.
I mean, that's what an Amazon category does. is it creates a ranking and it creates visibility for a certain topic.
And so there is change that books can create to the system and it doesn't have to be major legislation necessarily.
It can be an Amazon category, but that's changed too.
That's powerful. I know Dara, you had mentioned empathy and I think even Amy, you've said empathy too throughout the conversation so far. What role do you think empathy and understanding play into creating meaningful and sustainable impact?

[18:26] And like, how does that tie into the work that you do? I was just having this conversation with my husband today cause they were, you know, sadly were, there was gun violence over the weekend in Texas.
There were immigrants killed in a really sad, sounds like hit and run in Texas.
Also, we had the gentleman last week unhoused, killed on the subway.
And the question that my husband asked was, what do you think is the way forward for all of these different issues?
Gun violence and homelessness and healthcare. I mean, the list just goes on, education.
And I just kept coming back to, capitalism can't resolve all of these issues.
It really is empathy.
We really need empathy to factor into the solutions around border security.
You can't just remove people from, you know, an area because they're unhoused, they're in the way, and just, you know, they're just gonna go somewhere else and it's gonna be the same thing.
And we're just gonna keep kicking that can down the road versus just pouring into that problem, empathy.

[19:39] And I think as a publisher, what I've learned from our authors who, as Amy said, are just brilliant people across all industries. And what they're doing is they're using empathy as a way to show how solutions look. Because it isn't just enough to get on TV and say, you know, these guns are getting into the hands of people who desperately need mental health assistance.
Well, how does that look, the how, right? How does it look to approach this problem with guns, as like a mental health challenge we're gonna solve? How does that actually look?
And I think what authors have the unique capacity the unique capacity and ability to do is to say, okay, it's a mental health issue.
Here's a story about how we approached this problem.

[20:40] Here's a story about how a community approached it with this solution, factoring mental health.
And so I think that story is a really tangible tool for people to see how, when of course, so many leaders locally and nationally and globally, they kind of throw out the jargon word or they throw out the thing or they say, you know, you know, we'll just all work together bipartisan wise to make this solution happen and the end, right? And then you're like, oh, that sounds nice. But where we see actual change happen is when there's somebody kind of of like below the decision maker, whether it's in a corporation or in politics, somebody who's like on the ground and doing the work.
And then what happens is usually they read an op-ed or they find a book.

[21:37] And then the book says, here's how you do this. Here's how you get more proactive around this cause.
Here's how you get more productive.
Here's how you talk in a way that gets everybody humming together to solve this issue.
And then that person who's doing that work on the ground gives it to the CEO or gives it to the decision-maker or gives it to the politician. And they say, you know what? I wrote the speech that you're gonna read and I think we tell the story.
And then that's how you start to see some traction. So, and we see it over and over and over again.
We see this every day with how now we are hearing words like anti-racism and we're hearing words like compassionate capitalism.
Like these are words that likely began with someone who was writing and on the ground and could touch the story and make it come alive for everyday average people to see the how, not just the what.

[22:37] Just another word on empathy, though. It is no coincidence that Moms Against Liberty are actually fighting against teaching empathy in school and that they are the ones who are trying to get books and stories banned because they see the direct connection between storytelling and feeling compassion and empathy for your fellow human being.
And it is their own power that they are afraid of losing because again, I mean, the kids are in a position to really take away a certain segment of the population's power within a generation if they don't figure out how to retell what is true.

[23:23] Tell a falsified version of history. And I just shared with Dara this past weekend a TikTok that that I saw, which was the welcome packet for Moms Against Liberty, the group trying to get books banned in school.
And they're not afraid of books, because there are some books that go along with it.
And these books are telling a falsified history of the past 10 years and what has happened in our country politically.
So they are the ones trying to indoctrinate. They are the ones trying to skew the lens for these young people.
And I think it's just our responsibility to try to get these stories out and to fight against that force because they are directly fighting against empathy and compassion for their own gain.
Well said, Amy. Yep, mic drop.

[24:19] It's powerful, both of your perspectives on this and really kind of starts with the children essentially and you both have families and have really built a strong business within the publishing community.
So let's kind of step back into your own personal beliefs. How do your personal beliefs and values shape the mission that you have behind the work of YZINC?
I mean, for me, I have two white young boys that I'm raising and they will be young.
White men at some point, and then they will eventually be old white men. And for me, I think that I cannot passively just assume that through osmosis, they will learn how to be empathetic just by watching me and watching my husband and just being exposed to the right news. We need to be active in explaining the world to them as it actually is, because to be passive about that and assume that, oh, they're kids and they'll understand these things eventually.

[25:20] When it's age appropriate, whatever that means, they won't. They won't know just through the school systems. Unfortunately, we can't just count on an accurate telling of our shared history coming through the school system. So to me, that's where books come in. And books are tools for conversations. Books are tools for helping young people and all people get a more nuanced understanding. I think that there is such a force right now, too, just in general around this idea that we live in a black and white world and we just don't. And sometimes two things can be true at one time that are seemingly contradicting. And I mean, I think that we cut our kids short when we think that they aren't going to be able to see nuance and they aren't going to be able to understand complex realities through conversation and through stories.
But stories are a much more effective tool to build that understanding than just dictating to them or giving them lectures or whatever else it is. Stories help people feel into a truth in a way that is intellectualizing it and just explaining it in a more flat way just doesn't do.

[26:36] Yeah, I echo all of that. That was so well said. Yeah, that's great. And I think it is important to just keep reading stories and sharing stories with young people and just in general, adults too, you know, it, it can still, you can still change your perspective on things by, by reading and learning more. So at YZinc you've both worked with and, and beyond, you've worked with writers, editors, freelancers, project managers, marketing directors, analysts, goes on and on. How do you encourage the WISENC community to maximize their impact individually to really impact communities and beyond?
I mean, I think we do a really good job of highlighting what everybody is doing.
I think that's one thing. I think that sometimes you can, I went to a talk several years back and there was a woman who was speaking to how to focus.

[27:40] On where your sort of sphere of genius is to really make impact by not trying to do everything.
And like one thing she started her talk with was a slide that showed all the different causes, you could belong to, you know, food injustice, climate injustice, social injustice. And she just went down, you know, animal rights. I mean, there are so many things. And she said, you know, everyone in this room, I'm imagining has pretty high empathy, raise your hand if you care about all of these things. And everybody, of course, raised their hands, and she was like, you get three, you get three things on this list to really focus on. Are you the right person to advocate for.

[28:26] Financial literacy? Are you the right person to advocate for immigration? Right. I mean, I mean, where is your zone of genius?
What can you bring to this problem to really affect change in a big way?
And one other thing she said was, like, I loved her, like, you get three.
And I love that she said, you need to trust that the person next to you has it.
Like, they've got three other things and the person next to them has three other things and the person next to them has three other things.
And so I think what Wysink tries to do is normalize what we know everybody is doing because one, that helps us all feel a little less alone in the things that we're caring about and fighting for.

[29:13] It also gives everybody ideas. Oh my gosh, okay, I could donate proceeds from my book to go to this organization because that author is doing that for that, so we like to share.
And then the other thing we try to do is just normalize it, right?
Because I think that, I think it was, you know, not even 10 years ago where you always heard the things you don't talk about at the table are politics and money.
And what I tell my family is the things we're gonna talk about at this table are politics and money and faith, right? Like you couldn't talk about religion, politics and money.
And what are the three things that are just so drastically affecting everyone right now?

[29:57] Politics, religion and money. And if we aren't talking about those things, we are part of the problem.
Our generation has a responsibility to talk about these things with each other, with our littles and our community.
And if we don't, we are going to continue to see a lot of the things happen that are devastating to future generations, not just right now, but for tomorrow too. So...

[30:23] Sharing what everybody is doing, normalizing what the impact is that we can all make.

[30:28] Having it be a regular conversation, and picking three. Let's pick three and trust that our neighbor, even between Amy and I, right?
I mean, there are things, I appreciate animals.
Amy loves animals. So I probably am not the person to be wearing the shirt and going to the protests for animal rights, So I deeply care about that and I do not want people harming animals, but I know that is not my sphere of where I can make the most change happen. Yeah, I think it's, we can only do so much, you know, and like you said, you just gotta trust that other people have got some of those other areas. Well, and I think it's just like, like the advice we give our authors when it comes to marketing, we always say you can't be everywhere and do everything because if you try to do that, you will be inconsistent and you will make no traction and progress in getting your message out there. And so, pick the places and spaces where your readers are congregating and focus in on those and be consistent. Find the ways that you can be sustainably out there with your message, with your book. Same thing, I think, with causes that we care about. Where are the places and spaces that we can be out there and be consistent and make a difference.

[31:55] You know, we, I think that we.

[32:00] I think just our philosophy and how to write, publish, and market a book is very much, you know, in alignment with how we view our own causes.
Yeah. A lot of things kind of relate to each other in different areas of our lives.
Yeah.

[32:18] All right, so I have one more question for you both. You've been excellent, great answers. This has been an impactful conversation. So you both have been a successful team. And as we can see, even in this conversation, what do you think are some strategies for building effective collaborations and impactful partnerships? Well, I mean, for Dara and me, we just have always had really good conversations. And we're really great friends. And I know that not all friends can work together. But I think that we were really good at at balancing each other out. I think we're alike in the same way or in the right ways and we're different in the right ways. But I also think that we can go a lot further faster when we can have those good conversations but then pick our own lanes.
And I and I think that that's what's been good for us.
Yeah, I think that is so true. And I I guess the only thing I would add for collaborating with our authors is the same thing that Amy said is really communicating with each other.
We do a lot of, I would say that we're not a traditional publisher in lots of ways.
In most ways, we're very non-traditional in how we approach working with authors and creating our books.

[33:32] One thing we do, and it was just very, I think, organic for Amy and I, because that's how we collaborate with each other, is we encourage our authors, but we also are, I think, radically honest.
And we do a lot of question asking. And it isn't about like, how do you, you know, we don't, for example, use language with authors around best-selling books and how to make the most money and how to become the most famous influencer in this area, the same way Amy and I don't talk about like how to make the most money as publishers and how do we get on the Forbes list?
Really, we approach all of our conversations rooted in this idea that when you believe in something, and you're passionate about it, the success you are meant to have will come to you.

[34:29] And I think that our approach in publishing that way and in encouraging our authors to connect with what they love, connect with what they enjoy.
So of course, if you get on TikTok and you post a TikTok every day and you're trying to get the most views and then the views will lead to ad money and the ad money will lead to more money.
Like you could approach it that way, but I just don't think there's a lot of joy in that approach. And so we use words like joy and we use words like passion And we use words like.

[35:04] Honesty and liberation and lots of words that I know are probably not words that lots of bigger corporations use. But we use these words because we know that it is really spiritual work to write, a book, regardless of your faith. It is very spiritual for most people to spend time with their innermost thoughts and opinions and ideas, put them on a page and then bear it before for thousands of people.
And so we approach this work collaboratively with all of that in mind.
Yeah, I just wanna like echo that. That was so beautifully stated.
I think people who focus on doing the things that are helping to further the message, this is why we start every project by saying, what do you want your book to do in the world?
What do you want it to do for you? How do you want it to elevate your work in the world?
What do you wanna do to do for your individual reader? What is it?
You're helping that reader through a transformation or a shift, what is that? And it doesn't have to be a big one. It can be small, right? But what does that really look like? And then what is it doing for the world at large? What are the ripple effects? When you can make choices that align with.

[36:15] Those three areas, the mission in those three spaces, you're automatically going to be making choices that will also help you sell your book. And so to me, the purpose piece is central to the profit piece. You can't, with our philosophy in publishing, you have to have both.
Yeah, absolutely. And it makes me think of what we were talking about like earlier in the conversation about like, you got to go to the ground level and do the work, do the work, and then maybe, you know, whether it pays off monetarily or just a ripple effect into the world, You know, doing the work is going to make the impact.
Well, I mean, if you have an idea of a change that you want to make with a certain audience, then you're going to be seeking out podcasts where those audiences are congregating.

[37:11] And you're going to be trying to see if you can be a guest there.
And so you can see how just marketing efforts can give your purpose and your cause more visibility that will lead to more success, but not just success again, like that impact piece, right? It's going to lead to that impact and that desired change or shift or goal.
Well, as we wrap up this conversation, this is the part of the episode where I ask my guests to share a unique piece or reflection related to a word, whether it's fiction, nonfiction, poem, or personal experience. Amy is going to share with us a piece on the word impact. Here we go.
Impact always starts with storytelling. Storytelling creates a bridge of understanding between different human experiences. Impact through storytelling means someone can step outside of their limited lived experience and broaden their view of the world. This oftentimes leads to the acceptance of paradox, holding opposing truths at the same time, which then leads to more curiosity and hopefully a more creative and nuanced approach to solving problems. And that's what impact is, is when shifts can happen and the result is new solutions.
But it always begins with storytelling.

[38:30] Well, Dara, Amy, thank you so, so much. This has been incredible.
I really appreciate your time and your energy that you put into today.
And it's been a pleasure to talk about impact, publishing, and of course, Wise Inc.
Thank you so much. We're so excited to know you and thank you for the impact that you're making.
You're doing the work and it's important work.
We can't wait for your book. We're so proud to be collaborators with you and thank you for this opportunity.
Thank you.

[39:02] Music.

[39:14] Today's book recommendation is Impact, a step-by-step plan to create the world you want to live in by Christian Brandt and Tammy Tibbetts.
If you've ever felt too overwhelmed to make a difference or just unsure of how to apply your unique skills to a bigger purpose, this book is ready to unlock your potential.
When you feel that pull to be part of social change, where do you start?
How can you ensure that your good intentions create a positive impact?
How do you focus your scattered efforts? And how do you sustain yourself throughout?
Impact brings you the answers.
Drawing on their network and experience as founders of She's the First, Christian Brandt and Tammy Tibbitts show you how to create your own impact strategy, one that fits into your life and allows you to match what you have with what the world needs.
Their guidance, paired with interactive activities, will lead you to identify your North Star, Find the right partners and plug into movements for long-term systemic change.
Equally important, you will learn how to address biases, practice allyship, and shift power to become more inclusive and effective in your journey.
Before we wrap up the episode, I encourage you to grab a paper and pen, notebook, or your phone to write down the answer to these questions.
How can we build effective collaborations to achieve impact?

[40:36] How do your beliefs and values impact your life's decisions?
What impact do you want to make in this world?
Feel free to pause the episode and come back to these questions later.
If you have any thoughts on this episode, suggestions for a future episode, or if you or someone you know wants to be a guest on the show, contact me via my website at www.chrissieholm.com.
C-H-R-I-S-S-Y-H-O-L-M.
Thanks for listening to another episode of Stirred By Words, meditations and conversations about writing and wellness.
This has been your host, Chrissy Holm.
Tune in to future podcast episodes, and until next time, keep learning new words, Stay healthy and stay curious.

[41:28] Music.