Greater Things
A podcast about how faith fits with your everyday life. Matt interviews various speakers from around the globe and invites them to share their own experiences. For those who are asking big questions around faith, religion, church, and life.
https://www.greaterthingsinternational.com
Greater Things
Beyond the Words "I Forgive You": A Conversation on True Restoration with Ben Armstrong
Forgiveness sits at the heart of Christian faith, yet too often we reduce it to a simple phrase or moment when the reality is far more complex and powerful. In this raw and deeply personal conversation, Ben Armstrong takes us behind the curtain of his own journey through infidelity, betrayal, and the long road to restoration in his marriage and family.
Ben offers a refreshing perspective that challenges common misconceptions about forgiveness. "Forgiveness is given, trust is earned," he explains, highlighting how many believers confuse these distinct elements of healing. Through his story, we discover how forgiveness often happens in layers as new wounds surface, requiring ongoing grace rather than a one-time decision.
The conversation takes unexpected turns as Ben and Matt explore the challenges of isolation in the healing process. They challenge the notion that "all you need is God" for healing, instead pointing to Jesus' own model of both intimate communion with the Father and intentional connection with others. This theological grounding provides a framework for understanding why counseling, community, and shared wisdom become essential components of true forgiveness.
Parents will find particular value in Ben's insights about modeling forgiveness at home. He shares how working through his own forgiveness journey with transparency actually equipped his children with tools for their own emotional processing. The ripple effects of authentic forgiveness within families can transform generations.
Whether you're struggling to forgive someone who's wounded you deeply, seeking forgiveness for harm you've caused, or simply wanting to understand this cornerstone of faith more fully, this episode offers practical wisdom without easy answers. Ben's vulnerability creates space for listeners to engage their own forgiveness journeys with new perspective and hope.
Ready to experience forgiveness as more than just words? Listen now and discover how true forgiveness leads to freedom and restoration beyond what you might have imagined possible.
www.greaterthingsinternational.com
In today's episode of the Greater Things Podcast, I am with Ben Armstrong. He is from Bethel Church in Reading in America and we are tackling the topic of forgiveness. Now, this is a fundamental aspect of the Christian faith, but for Ben and I, we are tackling it from a personal point of view to show and model how unique forgiveness is for each of us.
Speaker 1:Just a heads up and maybe a little bit of a warning. We do tackle topics inside of this podcast around physical, emotional, spiritual and sexual abuse. We're back on the Greater Things Podcast and I am back with good friend Ben Armstrong Third time. Great to see you, ben Armstrong. Third time Great to see you, ben.
Speaker 2:How are you doing Wonderful? Yeah, we're making this a regular thing and I love it. It's always good to be with you, matt, and just excited about what comes out of these conversations and, you know, the hope to enrich people and maybe give some keys for our from our own life experience. Like you know, we're not professionals. We're practicing just like everyone else and we're we're learning how to do it. But, man, I just love, I love the conversations with you, I love what comes out of them and, uh, just enjoy being with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks, mate. Remember when I first got in contact with you through our good friend Jade, dreams was the thing that connected those dots for us. But I know the very first podcast, dreams were like a door for us, and just chatting with somebody who loves to be so genuine and authentic gave us two podcasts worth of information and story and experiences that have taken us deeper and deeper, and so when I came to the third one, I was sitting listening to you yesterday, ben, talk around this idea of forgiveness. You shared a tiny little bit in our last podcast, but as you shared it, I felt like, man, there's just such a weight on this. There's a story behind this guy's understanding of forgiveness, and so I wonder whether today we can sit in this beautiful, challenging, sometimes difficult I guess it's sometimes easy of forgiveness, and I would just love for you to share around some of the ways that you have learned, the way that you've grown or you've discovered on the power of forgiveness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, it's one of those foundational pieces to everything we know about the gospel. It's foundational to our relationship with Jesus Christ, to any person wanting to live a fulfilled life. We're going to have to grapple with this subject matter of forgiveness and we're not only going to have to partner and extend forgiveness, but hopefully we'll get forgiveness extended to us in all of our messes and all of our betrayals and all of those different things. And, yeah, forgiveness has been especially with our subject matter we talked about the last time with me and my wife and working through the huge mess that I created and betrayal that I created in our marriage, and even the forgiveness that our kids had to go through to forgive dad in that process and even as, as they grow, learning the weight of what I actually did.
Speaker 2:Right, because sometimes h you know, you you kind of get it, but you kind of don't get it, and then all of a sudden you're like, oh, wait a second, this is, this is bigger than I thought. And then you have to process through and there's layers sometimes of forgiveness, Because you may give a blanket statement of forgiveness and then realize later oh, I didn't know I was hurt that way. I didn't know I was hurt in that thing. And so then you're having to some people think like, well, I thought I forgave and I'm like you did and you did to the knowledge of what you, how, you knew it affected you, but you didn't know that it affected you that way. You didn't know it brought you all the way back to you know when your dad did something when you were a kid, or when you know that one friend betrayed you a certain way, you didn't know it connected to that one pastor or that church hurt that you've felt your whole life. And so those are more opportunities to extend this thing called forgiveness. And man, Matt, I don't know about you sitting on the other side of needing forgiveness extended to me. You know it creates a whole new thing and what I learned in forgiveness, especially with my wife, and the process, because you know, when you have the betrayal of an affair, um, as a husband or a wife, and you're in that kind of situation and and it's happened to you, you know, um, you can be a victim to that whole thing and hold it over your spouse their whole life. But forgiveness is something that keeps us from being a victim to issues and it extends an ability for God to deal with people in an incredible way.
Speaker 2:But there's, you know, I think a lot of us can sometimes Matt in situations we think forgiveness and trust are the same thing, are the same thing, and I found that forgiveness that's, that's kind of sometimes the easier side. But sometimes we mistake like I forgave that person. Why is it I don't trust them Because forgiveness is given, trust is earned and and we're, you know, I had to learn that. You know, Heather forgave me and continually forgave me for different things that you know, maybe she didn't know I had created pain in certain areas because deep wounding, like an affair or like some kind of betrayal. You're going to discover that over time.
Speaker 2:Where and then I've got to continue to extend. Yes, I forgave, but I'm going to continue to extend it, extend forgiveness based on this new thing or new effects of this thing, on this new thing or new effects of this thing. But trust, yeah, that one's a hard thing. How do I extend trust? And we have people in our environment, even right now that my wife and I work with because of what we've been through, who are saying you know, I've forgiven my spouse, you know I've forgiven my spouse, but I think I forgave them.
Speaker 2:But man, I just I can't open the door. Yet I said, well, don't open the door. How about you crack a window Just barely, even you know, and keep a pole wedged in the window so it only can crack a little bit. A pole wedged in the window, so it only can crack a little bit. Boundaries are so important in rebuilding trust and working through those things. But, yeah, this is a huge subject matter that I think it's worth diving into, it's worth going after and we were talking just beforehand, you know, sometimes we could talk about our own situation, but what about people who are going through something that we've never faced before? Right, what do we do in those areas are always, always a big deal. But, yeah, let's keep unpacking this. Let's ask me some questions. This dialogue around this thing called forgiveness that is such a pivotal part of our relationship with God and relationship with others.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I agree with that. I think for me, like, forgiveness, like you share, is such a unique thing for us to experience. But I think, as a like, even as a person who's been in the church my whole life, forgiveness is nearly like a phrase you use that once you've said it, we're all good, and there's that expectation that comes into it like Jesus forgave us, so we need to forgive, and I think I was taught the idea that when I forgive, I come automatically back into relationship with you, and I don't know if I've ever found that to work in a healthy way. See, I think forgiveness is the start of a conversation and healing, like forgiveness, is a part of healing, but forgiveness is not the only idea of healing. That's there, and I think forgiveness is that moment where, see, for me it's me taking full responsibility of a hundred percent of the things that I have brought into a conversation or an argument or disagreement, whichever way you want to call it I've got to take responsibility for what I'm doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and because part of that is forgiving myself, like I don't know about you, but like sometimes it's the easiest thing in the world to forgive somebody else, but when it's me like there's an old movie I don't know if you've ever seen it called the Mission with Robert De Niro, where he drags around a suit of armor through the, through the jungle and the, and the people there go and just get rid of it and then like this is my burden to bear, this is what I've got to carry, and it slows everyone else down until somebody, if my memory serves me correctly, cuts it loose and throws it over a waterfall.
Speaker 1:But unforgiveness in self prevents me from healing, and I've got to have that conversation with me more often than even those others, and I think God has given to us this beautiful concept of forgiveness to create a conversation where healing can be. Like you say, it's that window that we can crack open to see what the air is like out there. And at times when you're trying to forgive self too, mate, like I found that when I try and do this one-on-one or by myself, it's a hard thing to do. But if you bring in someone that you trust, you're in a place where you can actually start speaking these things and the healing for me started to speed up. And how do you feel about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I agree, I love that kind of that movie metaphor. It reminds me a lot of as well, uh, les Miserables, where you know you've got this guy who you know needs forgiveness. He, he needs forgiveness extended and he's transformed his life, but the law has to has. This guy has to pay. He has to pay. And justice, that justice thing inside of us, says there has to be payment for that. And you know the inspector, he had to die in order for that to be satisfied. And I think anyone who cannot forgive, and I think anyone who cannot forgive, the only end to that is death. That's the only way it actually gets satisfied the death of yourself.
Speaker 2:And yeah, there is so much pain wrapped up in this and we need help. I don't know about you, but trauma, which you know, a lot of the effects of things that you know someone being abused as a child, physically, emotionally, sexually you know these are intense traumas. You know there's all kinds of things we can put in those categories. Well, trauma puts hooks inside of us. Being able to work through the effects of the emotional damage that that's created in me. I can forgive, but there's still a lot of pain.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying you're not going to feel any more pain. You just forgive and then it's going to feel any more pain. You just forgive and then it's going to feel awesome from now on. Matt, you're just going to. All the emotions behind it, all those visceral feelings you felt, with all that it's just going to disappear. No, the pain and the effects of those now can be dealt with. Forgiveness opens the door and now I can deal with the emotional pain and damage that's created inside of me. But now I don't have to keep projecting judgment there. My wife for me, extending forgiveness to me.
Speaker 2:She could have held a lot of things over my head for a long time and I probably held things over my own head long after she had forgiven some things, but it didn't mean there wasn't still pain there in some of those effects or potential invitations to partner with fear. You know when the accuser comes and says, oh well, it's been doing something over here, what's going on over here? Can you really trust your husband? These are all real things. So for me and my wife, what really helped us was counseling. You know that's what healthy influence, healthy feedback in our life help create, and you know our counselors who would speak into our life. Okay, is that really true or is that an emotion? And if that's an emotion, emotions are real. They're not wrong, they're real.
Speaker 2:But how do we process through an emotion, rather than that emotion giving us an identity and declare over us? Because I lived in a lot of potential shame and guilt yeah, guilt and shame and guilt. I think in a community, especially with my situation of an affair, shame and guilt I think we take on as a false sense of I'm safe because I can, everyone can see I'm ashamed of myself. That guy knows he's guilty, so I can see it, but it keeps me as less of what God wants us to live in, which is a true, free lifestyle. Real forgiveness brings freedom and it restores the standard right brings freedom and it restores the standard right. It means restoration is better than the original state, where I see a lot of people who have either been perpetrators of something pretty negative, who live under the weight of that their whole life. I mean, if we did that, then Moses was a murderer. You know, he can't say anything, he can't do anything, he can't be a deliverer he already murdered people.
Speaker 2:Paul was sitting around while people were being murdered. Who knows if he wasn't a murderer himself. That guy wrote the gospels, and that doesn't give permission for any of the messes we made. No, they owned them and they cleaned up their mess. And then they received the forgiveness of Christ. And it took Paul. It took a Barnabas, right, I'll remember.
Speaker 2:At that point none of the other disciples wanted to include Paul in anything like hey, don't. You know, this is a spy, he's going to kill us all. And it took the son of encouragement, a Barnabas, you know, to come in and say no, guys, we need to give this guy a chance. And it took the counsel of a father, it took the counsel of someone to walk them through the emotions and even maybe, the feeling of like, ah, this is the guy who presided over the death of one of our own Right. How am I going to even talk to this guy, let alone have a meal with him, let alone this guy being a teacher of the gospel of Jesus Christ to us and you know, people could hold that over Ben Armstrong too Like I failed. And there's one thing for leaders to fail and not own their mess Like, yeah, and a leader that's failed. You don't want them teaching you stuff. The next day they're having open heart surgery. That's not what we're saying in any of this stuff. We're saying, no, there's a process in it, we walk through it and even in ourselves, being able to forgive ourselves, being able to forgive ourselves.
Speaker 2:My counselor, barry Byrne, did a great job walking me through and even telling me hey, you've done the work. That sounds like an identity of shame you put on yourself, not shame. Like shame is one of those emotions that we should feel when we think about doing something wrong. We should be ashamed of that and it's supposed to keep us from the behavior that would lead us into. I'm guilty, right, if I did something wrong, if I, if I operated in, in, you know, stepped into an affair, yeah, I should feel guilt and now that should lead me to repentance, cleaning up the mess with God, with the people that affected my wife, my children, my family, my ministry. I can remember going to my wife's dad and having to tell him and that was. Those were rough moments, but they were powerful moments. Powerful moments to where now I'm. Powerful moments to where now I'm not under the fear of what if someone finds out. Yeah, like I told on myself, here it is. You can forgive me or not forgive me, but now that's at least on your side and I've done my part in repentance, done my part in repentance, and then I'll do my part in trying to clean up a mess, to the extent that I'm allowed to, right.
Speaker 2:So, those people out there who have been perpetrators as well, I think we need to give people space, hmm, to come to a place where they they, they want dialogue or they they need some more things from us. What does that look like? There's there should always be this open door of like OK, here's my mess, here's what I think it caused. Is there any other things that you can think of that it caused? Other things that you can think of that it caused? And then, what does it look like for me to clean up that mess? Here's what I am doing and I'm trying to do that I think will clean up a mess. Is there any other things? And then getting that dialogue, and then I always would say, in the meetings I would have with people trying to clean up a mess, I'd say okay, and if there is something that comes up that you didn't think about in this meeting. Feel free to have those conversations, whether an email or it's a text, or if you need another meeting to follow up with this, I'm available to do those things.
Speaker 2:It took a lot of those to work through and it took people time. I can remember a good friend of ours, heather's best friend, best childhood friend. It took her seven years to say, okay, I've watched long enough that I feel like I can extend forgiveness to you. But it took time and that wasn't so much on me, but I was having to prove something that I didn't know I was having to prove, didn't know I was having to prove and and at least she stuck around in relationship with Heather long enough to see, see my investment and and that. And you know even what we worked through, my wife and I, as we became healthy. It helped my children forgive without having to do counseling, because heather was doing the counseling and we were doing all the healthy stuff in front of them and they were learning how to forgive and how to deal with emotions because we were walking them through it as we were walking through it as well.
Speaker 1:Crazy stuff, let me ask me ask you a question. A pastor I was listening to a number of years ago said you don't need counselors, you just need God. How do you feel about that?
Speaker 2:I get the statement and it sounds awesome and there is truth to it. However, I feel like it's missing a component of the nature of God and his sovereignty. In God's sovereignty, he can be everything to us. Does he have that capacity? He's infinite, of course he has that capacity, but in God's sovereignty he seems to work it out differently. And here's what I mean. In God's sovereignty, although he can be everything to me, he seems to reserve portions of himself to be only revealed in another person, so that we won't only need him, we'll have communion here as well.
Speaker 2:This is Paul in 1 Corinthians, chapter 11. His beef with the church of Corinth was a big one. He wasn't saying, guys, you don't know how to do communion this way. He's saying, guys, the whole point of the communion meal was a value system for the body for one another, not just his broken body, but the body of Christ. And he said, guys, but the body of Christ. And he said guys, what should be a unifying factor where you guys are benefiting one another? Because you don't have a value system here, many of you are sick because you don't discern the body rightly. And he's not even talking about know his own flesh. Yes, it is his own flesh, but we are the body of christ, and god doesn't separate the head himself from the body and he says no, you're going to need one another. So this idea that all I need is God well, go be a hermit in the middle of nowhere and be in a cave and all you need is God Great, that's fine, but that doesn't actually connect you to his body out here.
Speaker 2:And Jesus modeled something for us that I think we can probably anchor into, because Jesus is perfect theology. So what Jesus would do is, yes, he'd spend time away, right, jesus would go to a solitary place and he'd feast off of God, the Father. All I need is God. Yeah, in those moments, yes, that's what I need in that moment. But he lived out of an overflow of rest and communion towards people who would always come back, and then he'd say I only do what I see my father doing. So I'm doing this and I'm counseling you, I'm coaching you up, I'm healing you, I'm delivering you, I'm releasing prophetic, I'm releasing a word of knowledge, but it comes out of an overflow, of that abiding, hidden relationship, but it comes towards you. So, you know, there's Moses who spoke to God face to face, as a friend, and we want that relational, face to face with God context. That's beautiful, that's powerful. But then there's also the context talked about in Galatians, chapter 5, when it talks about the, the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Since we live by the Spirit, let's keep in step with the Spirit. So that's a that's not face to face, that's hand in hand.
Speaker 2:So which one is it? It's both. We need intimacy with God, but then the intimacy should produce stuff, stuff to walk hand in hand to missionally carry out salvation and the kingdom to the greater planet, the globe, you know. So it's like my relationship with my wife. You know, we got married, you know, a lot of years ago, but we didn't stay in the honeymoon chamber. Yes, we still have intimacy, we still have that face-to-face, but married couples don't stay in the bedroom forever. You would die, right, what a way to go. But you would die, you need to eat food, you're probably going to wind up reproducing and you're going to birth babies.
Speaker 2:So I love the idea of intimacy and that's what this guy's getting at, like, hey, there's something in God you can only get with God, yeah, and then there's some portions of God you can only get if you value others who have a context of relationship with God that you don't yet have, and this is why these are valuable, because we're gleaning off those relational contexts. It's called the testimony, right? It says the testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy. So the testimony of what Jesus Christ did in that individual thing with that pastor who said all you need is Jesus, yeah, but it should testify of something that someone else needs, and what you received in that place should be prophetic of what God wants to give to someone else through relational context. You know, if it was just God, then we wouldn't need the ministry of the laying on of hands, we wouldn't need deliverance, you know, we wouldn't need all of these different things that are foundational to the kingdom. So I love the intimacy part of that statement that he's saying and I get that and I value that, you know.
Speaker 2:But it's the other side where I need your story. I need your testimony, I need your encouragement, otherwise, you know, we wouldn't have prophecy itself. You know, the one who prophesies prophesies for the strengthening, encouragement and the comfort of another. Well, all of those attributes are found in God. So why don't you just go? Just go to God. You don't need a prophetic word, just go Right. So why don't you just go to God? You don't need a prophetic word, just go right. So it's these aspects of a relationship with God that we get those currencies of strength, courage and comfort, and then it's on us to give those away, to be generous with those things and to glean from one another generous with those things and to glean from one another. So I think there's just too much in scripture where God actually is looking primarily for partnership, and we see it throughout the Old and New Testament. I just don't see any testimonies of the life of Jesus Christ or the engagement of God where God alone does the work in someone's life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Now, when I sat there under that sermon, trish was sitting beside me and she is a counsellor, so some forgiveness needed to be wielded on her part. When a pastor says you don't need a counsellor For me, like what you're saying is beautiful because I think the spirit of the living God lives within us, and so to say I don't need what you want to share, I think that's quite ignorant. Like if you go all the way back to Adam and Eve, like Adam needed somebody else. He had God. He walked in the cool of the evening with God, but he still needed somebody else. He had God. He walked in the cool of the evening with God, but he still needed somebody else. And when someone says, no, I just need God, you go. I get the principle, but the practice needs to happen inside a community. You know how.
Speaker 1:When Jesus was asked the question like what's the greatest commandment, he goes I'm going to give you two for the price of one. Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. But the little phrase in the middle of that that comes next is the second. One is equally as important as the first. Love others as you love yourself.
Speaker 1:I think we've dropped that phrase out of the Christian theology at times because we just have to concentrate on God and Jesus is like, yes, but there is a part two in this, and these don't work in isolation. They work collaborative. And so when we are sitting with the saints or the other believers, like Paul says in 1 Corinthians, that we have the mind of Christ. Now that means, ben, you got it.
Speaker 1:And if I say I don't want to hear what you're thinking right now, I'm actually ripping myself off of some wisdom that you sit with and like listening to the way that you talk about the restoration of family, the restoration of marriage, the restoration of relationships that come into your world. These are things for Trish and I. God just draws people into these places and that happens because they're looking for ways of the collaborative wisdom that we sit in to go. How did you do this? And when I talk about forgiveness, I mean sometimes forgiveness was a daily thing, sometimes it was an hourly thing and at times for Trish, like with what we went through, it's just something you can't push it, it's just something you've got to wait and, like you said, yeah, and there's choice in this too, right, matt?
Speaker 2:So some of this. What's interesting to me as well is my wife could have chose not to extend the type of forgiveness, Not to extend the type of forgiveness, and at the same time, there can be times where, in a situation like an affair, right, maybe the perpetrator doesn't want to repent.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But it's still on me to forgive, yeah, what's coming at me. But in a marriage relationship, right, it's a covenant between three people. God doesn't want that broken. And this person may want forgiveness and reconciliation. And I've seen it too many times where there's a mess made and one person wants reconciliation but the other is like no, no, no, and I still got to extend forgiveness, I've still got to, I've got to do those things. And then, you know, there's the the portion of like. There's levels of this too, where some people think forgiveness means that they're going to get back together, and sometimes one or both of the party aren't willing to do the work to create a healthy marriage and we can forgive.
Speaker 2:But, man, they're just not healthy behaviors. So, trust-wise, this is not the healthiest thing to be in right now, or one of the sides chooses not to live healthy. Okay, well, I don't trust, so I'm going to have to give some boundaries here, right? So those are little things and there's nuances all to this, this whole thing, and this is why we need feedback. This is why we need I believe we need friends and family with a shared value system and leaders with a shared value system giving us feedback. Why do I say shared value system? Well, I say shared value system because you know, we have a school of supernatural ministry here at Bethel Church and some of them are from all over the world and some of those students have friends and family who aren't believers. So if they submit forgiveness to family members who have no concept of this, they'll be like no, don't ever forgive that person.
Speaker 2:You know hold on to that thing, or you know they have leaders in their life that don't agree with you. Know, far be it from us. Bethel Church right, because there's nobody who disagrees with us. You know there's. You know they could be like I read something on the Internet. They may not have any firsthand, so it needs to shared value system that we're submitting these things to. And there, you know, there needs to become a new normal and we started in our own homes.
Speaker 2:Matt, it's difficult. You know I'm a pretty open book. We've talked about this. I'm a pretty transparent guy and that's a learned behavior. I learned to be hidden because most environments transparency, especially with messes you create or things you're struggling with, and maybe you haven't even stepped into sin, you're just struggling with.
Speaker 2:You bring that up, you get shut down, right, you get, you get uh, you get put on the bench or you get kicked out of whatever it is like. Not all environments are like the environment I live in, but I can start creating that environment, in my home at least, and we can start creating those types of environments around, and I see the church moving in this direction. We're not perfect yet and we're still really good at judging people, and now it doesn't mean we don't get hurt by situations. Of course we're man. I get hurt when another leader falls. I get hurt when another leader looks like they're doing something but been doing something behind our back. That is horrible. But to go online and heap on, I don't know that that's helping, bring healing or bring trust or bring breakthrough or bring forgiveness back to a situation. That's not.
Speaker 1:That's not helping at all yeah, one of the things that I've enjoyed about interviewing you is the way that you talk about heather and she's like say whatever you want to say, but it doesn't happen here in the, in the home. That's actually not a thing, um, and I know I've just probably butchered every one of her phrases that it sounds so much better coming out of her mouth. But that's the thing Like. When you say if forgiveness is a thing for you and it's only a thing in ministry, then it's not really a thing, it's just, it's a theory that you're sprouting out, that you want people to live by a set of rules that you're not even desiring to live by yourself. But if it starts in the home, where forgiveness becomes because again I call it a superpower I think it's one of those things that god has gifted us with and invites us into that place to hey, take this thing out for a spin, see where this, what this thing, can do. But it's just one of the conversations that gets us there. And so, listening to you talk about home and family, forgiveness has been a conversation, restoration has been a conversation, joy has been a conversation, healing has been a conversation. All of these things collaboratively, they start building a greater level of trust, and so a best friend of seven years, or seven years out of relationship, can all of a sudden go. Actually, I'm up for this. Why? Because she sees the fruit of what's actually happened in the home. And I'm guessing with that woman, if she didn't see it in the home, she only saw it when you're preaching she'd be exiting stage left and again it'd be a very difficult place to do relationship from. But to me it sounds like Heather has this extraordinary way of grounding you and bringing you into that place where she is one of those voices that you trust, that you love, all of that sort of stuff combined into one, and she becomes like a spiritual barometer.
Speaker 1:I don't know if that's a good enough metaphor for the home to find a place where these things that we're talking about can be. We get curious about them. So forgiveness for one child might be a different conversation for another. So how about we have two different conversations?
Speaker 1:Healing for one can be different from another, whereas often in church we talk about it as one conversation and sometimes like in with forgiveness. Forgive me for saying this, but sometimes we use it like a spell, like if say it, therefore you should believe it and we add that God in the name of Jesus at the end of it. And sometimes that can be extraordinarily abusive to do that kind of behavior, particularly when it's happening not outside, not inside. You know what I mean. Like it's got these, these are the building blocks for what happens out here, and what happens out here is often the evidence of what we see in there, inside the home, and I think that's where our authority builds, that's where we get to test and see these things of the kingdom that actually occur, because we're doing them inside our own homes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's, it's. It's it really is. It's vital, it's real, it's where it gets worked out. Instead of just being a theory or a good preachy message, it's got to be tangible. We've got to be able to walk and struggle through and work through these things, and in your home not walking through those privately, you know, but having your kids, you know, obviously we talked about last time age appropriately be involved in those things empowers them to be walking through their own process as they see. Mom and dad model something in a healthy way.
Speaker 2:And even there I can't force forgiveness on someone. That's a choice. And if they want to live in torment, if they want to live with debilitating pain and emotional pain that can turn into physical pain and all kinds of different things, then you know the only thing I can do is self-control, not control anyone else, right? Every other control is is a gift from the devil, right? The only gift from the holy spirit is self-control. Yeah, so I at that point like, okay, but if you, if you can't forgive, then there's going to be boundaries, right? If you can't extend this, if we can't work through this, then there's there's going to be some definite boundaries. Like hey, we're gonna we're and and in family like family doesn't get to run away from each other, right. So it's going to be in our face for a while and we're going to have to work this out, and I think it gets worked out best in in that kind of family context.
Speaker 2:And and if you and if you guys are struggling as as families, like to really work this out, this is where we invite, uh, you know, leaders in or other family members in to be a voice in this. It's so funny how you know us as parents. I don't know if this is true of you, matt, but my wife and I sometimes we'd say things to our children and they just couldn't hear it, they had zero value system for it. And then, all of a sudden, our crazy uncle says something to them and they're like, oh my goodness, look at this. This is so amazing.
Speaker 2:This is what I not trying to do, it all on your own. Those are sometimes the greatest things we can do for ourselves and for our children. One thing we did for our children was we invited other friends, family members, to be voices in our children's life and we said, hey, you know what? We want you to be in a voice in their life. We invite you into spending time with our children and giving relational content and that helped a lot and it helped them in times where it was hard for them to forgive mom and dad for certain things. It helped them hear it from someone else and then start to extend that stuff I love that much, yeah, and this is when it's with your kids.
Speaker 1:It's generational and anything we can model generationally is going to affect the world that we live in, and so to take these healthy, intentional steps and so, as we wind up this podcast, the thought of people listening. Forgiveness is not a one-size-fits-all. It's something, it's a conversation, it's the beginning, it's opening an opportunity or, like Ben said, it's cracking a window to see what is there. And, just like ben said, if you force it, you might break the window and you might do way more damage than you've actually intended in the first place.
Speaker 1:The idea of waiting, even when there's conflict, is hard, but time it takes time. For trish and I were nearly 20 years down the road and people are how long did it take you? And we're still doing it. We're still making intentional choices every single day. We're still having to navigate moments that come up that cause us pain and remind us of things of the past, but we do it in relationship and we do it in conversation, so we're using our words. I think this is part of the design that God's given to us, that I model on Adam and Eve all the way back. There is that he needed her and she needed him, and together they could do something pretty dynamic. And I think it's not just limited to husband and wife, it's limited to two guys who have never met each other in the flesh but live on opposite sides of the planet. We can do this together and have a collaborative and a collective wisdom on these sorts of things. Before we finish, ben, is there any other pearls you want to drop on us?
Speaker 2:No, just I want to. I just would probably want to pray and extend some grace to just for people as they discover how their process looks like. And so, father, you also give the grace to walk through the pain and the potential betrayal of things that have happened to us, and you're familiar with these. It's not like you've never experienced. You experienced ultimate betrayal that led to your crucifixion, and even on the cross, you extended forgiveness. Forgive them, father. You don't know what they're doing and I need God, we need to tap into that grace, that very thing that you pulled on on the cross. God, would you extend that to us in every place where it feels like, oh, it's super hard to let go of this one and I don't know if I can do it. And, god, as we walk out forgiveness, would you help us walk through the emotional pain and the residual effects of those things.
Speaker 2:So we can be a whole person, so we don't have to live with the weight of those things over us, shame and guilt do not become our identity, but that we can live free, that we can actually live in a place where we truly are redeemed and we are a new creation in Christ. Jesus and Lord, give us the ability to extend that forgiveness to others so they can live a redeemed lifestyle as well. Yeah, we thank you for that. We bless everyone who will ever hear this podcast. In Jesus' name, amen.
Speaker 1:Amen, thanks, brother. It's been a joy for everyone listening along. This is the Greater Things Podcast. We'll be back in your ears next time. Bye for now. You can find us on Facebook, instagram and YouTube, or go to our website, greaterthingsinternationalcom. You.