Greater Things
A podcast about how faith fits with your everyday life. Matt interviews various speakers from around the globe and invites them to share their own experiences. For those who are asking big questions around faith, religion, church, and life.
https://www.greaterthingsinternational.com
Greater Things
Transformed by Fire: Understanding God's Process through Pottery
We explore the biblical metaphor of God as the Potter and humans as clay through the unique perspective of Jade Schultz, an experienced potter who brings both spiritual and practical insight to this powerful imagery.
• The importance of trust in the pottery process, paralleling our need to trust God during formation
• How clay must be properly wedged (kneaded) to remove air bubbles before firing, similar to how we need preparation
• Understanding our uniqueness in God's design, like different types of clay suited for different purposes
• The significance of not rushing the process – both in pottery and spiritual formation
• How our past struggles actually strengthen us, like recycled clay scraps adding strength to new clay
• Viewing difficult seasons as necessary preparation rather than punishment
• Learning to recognize when God is changing how He communicates with us
• The freedom that comes from yielding to God's expert shaping
Join us next time for another conversation about greater things God is doing in and through ordinary lives.
www.greaterthingsinternational.com
Today on the Greater Things Podcast, I am with my friend, jade Schultz. We unpacked a passage of scripture from Jeremiah 18 about the potter and the clay. Jade is quite a good potter and I got a bunch of her insights, both in the physical and also the spiritual understanding of being a potter. Well, here we are on the Greater Things podcast and it's been a little while, but today I'm back with Jade Schultz. How are you doing, jade?
Speaker 2:Peachy Doing well.
Speaker 1:It's always awesome to catch up with you and to hear what God's doing in and through you, and each time I do, I seem to walk away with my faith just a little bit bigger because of the stories and the testimony and the words that you share. So, not expecting anything different today, I'm sure I'm going to walk away just going wow, god's been so good once again. How does that sound for an intro?
Speaker 2:It sounds really great, yeah, yeah, Not today.
Speaker 1:One of the things that Jade and I have been chatting around is the idea of the potter and the clay. These are very in church world. You'll often hear these phrases being used and they come straight from the Old Testament, both from the book of Isaiah and also Jeremiah, and they seem to be a metaphor that God would use often. I guess it's happened twice, Is that often, I don't know. Twice. That's recorded where he talks about himself being the potter and that we are the clay. Now, the reason why this is such an interesting conversation for myself to have this with Jade is because Jade has been or is, a potter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wear many hats you do, and you just got to spend 10 minutes with you, jade, and you find another hat. But you don't just do things in half measures, like you go and get the things to do the things and all of a sudden you're really good at doing those things oh, it sounds like I'm a compiler of things.
Speaker 1:Well, in 2023, when Trish and I decided to go on the Great American Road Trip with yourself and Mel, we started at your home and I don't know if it was day two, might have been day two, but we were in your garage doing pottery. Now I haven't. As you know, I hadn't know if it was day two, might have been day two, but we were in your garage doing pottery. Now I haven't. As you know, I hadn't done pottery since I was in school, so that's quite a few years ago and my greatest addition to the world of art through the medium of pottery was an ashtray. Now, which would have been helpful if anyone in my family actually smoked, but they didn't.
Speaker 1:But that was the long and the short of pottery as a kid in Australia in the 70s, so I hadn't really put my hands to clay until we were talking about this before we came to America. And you can do this, matt. You can absolutely do this. I did have my doubts. I just thought you might have overestimated my ability in the concept of I think you call it throwing mud. Is that what you call it?
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, yeah that'll work.
Speaker 1:Can you see how professional I am? The language around this whole concept All the yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But, jade, you had us sitting on the wheel and working clay into a vessel and again, like your encouragement, your wisdom, your thoughts, and then you're finishing to make it actually look good um, all very helpful in the process of pottery.
Speaker 1:Just recently, this whole idea has come back to me and I feel like God has just been sort of sitting with me to go what does this look like for something to be squashed back down again to be remade? So, jeremiah 18, god tells him to go to a potter's house and the potter is doing something and turns out he's not liking what he's done, so he squashes it back down again to remake something beautiful. And so got curious around this idea of what does this look like and how does this work, and the ideas of of pottery and why god would be um so attuned to this being a great metaphor of his, of him being the potter and we are the clay. And the idea of it around Jeremiah 18 is that God has done something and often he might just push it back down again to remake something as well, and often we can struggle with that. But, jay, before I get too spiritual about it, no.
Speaker 1:The process, Can you help like in layman's terms, which is the way that you shared it with me, of pottery.
Speaker 2:Okay, let's see if we can do this All right. Okay, let's see if we can do this all right. So first I just I think it's important to address like you had a doubt that you could do something that I said you can do, and so you, you put some trust in me, but you still had reservations and doubt, and I think that as Christians, we find our faith wanting at times and our trust in God maybe a little bit more on the lean side than than heavy on that. But the concept of of being a piece of clay, um is really about, about trusting the process.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And there's a whole like this is built in. It's not just in those two verses that we talk about being clay. We know that we were formed of the dust of the ground and uh, and paul calls us these earthen vessels and Job cries out you have made me like clay. And so there's this really fitting metaphor that stems around God putting his hands to something. And can we trust in that process? And can we trust in that process? Because if you look at, if you ever YouTube, even if you're not a potter, I think it gives you a better understanding.
Speaker 2:If you watch somebody manipulating clay on a wheel, or even the hand building with it, there's a process to making clay and it looks a little violent.
Speaker 2:You know it's, it's, there's a, but the same could be true about somebody that is making bread.
Speaker 2:You watch this process of it being, of it rising, and then it's sort of beat down and then it's rolled out and then it's let to rise again and it's all in sort of forming these, these molecules or these structures to be able to withstand a different portion. But we often don't take into account, I think, that we're the hands that are being put to us, are the hands that created us and created us in this like. Created us with a vision and a purpose, like God knows, just as a potter knows, what this piece of clay or this person's potential to be, what that is. And the wonderful thing about the metaphor that's in Isaiah and Jeremiah is that this is a loving God. Yeah, that this is a loving God. Yeah, that is putting hands that are so full of love into a process to make an individual be a container or a vessel that Holy Spirit can fill and can be poured out from. That Holy Spirit can fill and can be poured out from.
Speaker 2:So it's really this glorious process of becoming and the crushing or the. In ceramics we call it wedging. So we're actually kneading the, the clay, together and it's creating a plasticity or a binding that really helps later on in the process. It helps lessen the stress on the body of clay so it can become something that is unrecognizable from the original form. It's the same properties, but it's come into the authority and it's yielded itself Under the potter's hands. It's spun violently on the wheel. It goes through different stages, but in the master's hands is where we find the finished product is so much more beautiful than when it started. I think sometimes we want to quit in the process, like, oh, I can't take any more, because the processes can be really, really hard in our lives. It's difficult to live. It's beautiful to live. I used to work in a communal art space.
Speaker 2:I used to work in a communal art space and in order to cut down on the financial burden that it takes to create a batch of clay all the scraps that come off of a piece before they are put to the fire we would throw those in what's called a slop bucket and that slop gets added to new material and it actually adds a bit of age In our terms. We would say you know like we go through things.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:In life.
Speaker 1:And we're.
Speaker 2:The Bible says that we're going from glory to glory. We are in, we are on the increase at all times. It doesn't feel like it necessarily, but we're gaining wisdom from the lessons that we, the bumps, the nicks, the, the moments of crushing or the moments of even pulling, and if we stay yielded in those moments, we are becoming this new element. Inside this slot bucket is bacteria, is mold, all things that we think would be gross. You don't want to work with that. But those things, added to a new particle, increase the I think it's called uh flocculation. So they increase the strength, they increase the plasticity. It gives it greater resistance to stress and the potter knows all of these things. So it's not like god is like introducing things in our lives that just to crush us, or he's causing these things, but he's never caught off guard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, can I ask you a question absolutely as a potter? Do you always have it in your mind what this is going to be, or does it just become something as you do it like, like what's the process for you in?
Speaker 2:I think I know.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Sometimes you know, like if I want to sit down and create a plate, then I'm not going to throw upwards, I'm not going to build the walls upwards, I'm going to build them out yeah so I'm not gonna put this particular piece of clay through the process of going up when I want it to go out.
Speaker 2:But there are things that are like happy accidents, that, like you don't necessarily see. Sometimes this like um, this is where the metaphor kind of breaks down, because this is what I would call impurities in the clay. So you don't necessarily see these little flakes or different iron particles until they go under fire and they come out and they, they, the iron particles, have actually turned into these beautiful rust parts when silica and fire hit them.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think they're happy accidents and I think that's true about, like, our faith right and our trust in God. Can we imagine that God is in awe of us in these moments of faith?
Speaker 1:Yeah, in these moments of faith.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know, I think like sometimes we want we get bogged down and it's natural that we look out and we see people around us and we think that, okay, if I do it this certain way, instead of yielding to God and saying, why are we doing it this way? Like coming before God and in that process and asking those questions of why or what are we doing in these moments, you know, in an atmosphere of trust yeah, questions will lead to revelation but in an atmosphere of complaining or comparison or mistrust, those lead us to unbelief.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and fear would do the same in that sort of place, because it's again, it's trying to wrestle control away from the potter. Um, and that's where I think for humanity, for the longest time we've done that, we've tried to do that like the bible's full of stories of wrestling control away, like even when Israel wanted a king, samuel's like we don't want a king, and God's like they don't need a king but they're asking for a king. And it moves them away from that, the design of the potter. And that's where I think at times for me when I've resisted the potter or effectively told the potter I know better than you in those moments of going it should look this way and he's like but it actually looks this way, that submission that you talk about, or just that yielding to to the potter, like even watching you work the clay, like I know that you gave Trish and I and Mel some just wonderful advice in it, but then you sat at it and I've got a video of you just going nuts on this thing and creating it and it's just the most beautiful thing to watch because you can see someone who knows what they're doing, understands the pressure, has in their mind what they want to bring and all of a sudden, you start seeing it happen so easily and so effortlessly. And I know, when I put my hands on the clay, you're like saying to me not too much, not too much pressure, less or more pressure, less pressure. If you don't know, you don't know, but you've got to trust somebody who, who does. If I didn't trust you and said, jade, let's have a seat, I'll just show you how to do this thing, it probably would have ended up as an ashtray.
Speaker 1:But it is that place, right. You trusted that I could do it, or you believed that I could do it. I trusted that you could do it, but could I believe that I could? That was the thing, and my experience has shown me probably not, but my heart had gone. I'd really like to do this and your voice was I think you can, or I believe that you can, and before you know it, we've created some sort of cylindrical vessel that could be used for who knows what. But it's again.
Speaker 1:For me, it was that little moment of pride, like to go wow, this thing's actually happened, it's all worked. Yes, I was guided, yes, I was led, but what I'm doing is leaning on the wisdom of one who has gone before and trusting that what you're saying to me is not going to lead me astray, and the place of relationship shows us that won't go astray. And this is, for me, the God part of this too, like it's us, in that place of relationship with him, to know that he's not leading us astray, even if it's looking a little messy, even if it's looking a little bit out of shape. I don't know about you, but like, when things are handmade, there's not two of them that are exactly the same. Is that? Am I speaking?
Speaker 2:rubbish. No, I mean there are production potters, but even that they're producing something as a body of work, so you get your matching plates or something like that. God knows very well our uniqueness, finding that space in yourself where you can go. I'm actually OK that this is the lens that I see the world and God says that it's good and it's beautiful. And as long as I'm in that relationship, you know he's pulling things out of you that you didn't know were there.
Speaker 2:You know he's, he's stretching you in so that Things that you know that we need to deal with are coming up, and and he's there. Yeah there, yeah, and if we'll stay in that place and you know, so often we want to quit things and we just really need to sometimes quit complaining first, but get with him ask him why are we doing it this way?
Speaker 2:this seems really hard. Well, maybe that's the starting point. Why does this seem hard? Is there something that you know? Am I? Am I thinking maybe incorrectly about this, or have I been hurt? Is there some sort of you know? And God, but he knows all of these things.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And he's he's so good at drawing us out he's so good at drawing us out, drawing us into spaces to believe for a better outcome, and he's so good at that and he's so tender to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Let's talk about the obvious metaphor that you've touched on around the firing, with some of the challenges you're talking about now, like stopping in the complaining, working out why we're doing the things that we're doing. Is this what you call the fire, or what is it? So, firstly, can you give the listener an understanding of what happens to the clay when fire hits it and then, if you can help me understand what does fire look like in your life that changes that structure.
Speaker 2:Well, first I would say this you don't put to fire something that can't withstand it. There are different stages that clay goes through. It starts out as wet, it gets a little muddy and messy and it gets formed into something that looks completely different than it originally did. But it's not finished at this point. Like you, clay has to go through, um, a stage of being what we call wedged or crushed. If it's not done, then you will have air bubbles in there and when those things are in, if they're present in the clay and you put that to the fire, it will explode, and then it's worth nothing because it can't. It just can't withstand the fire.
Speaker 2:And the way that this looks, I think, with God, is he's really forming us to be able to withstand the next stage. And ceramics, just like our lives, has a process to get from one thing to the next thing, to the next thing, and it's a pace, it's a rhythm, um, there's a once something is formed and made, it has to go into this bone dry stage where all the moisture is sucked out of it. If you rush that process and you like say you put a fan on this piece of clay, it's not going to dry at the same rate. So it's going to cause this vessel to be under stress already. So like one side is drying quicker than the other side, so it can crack, and so everything has a rhythm and a pace to it that is unhurried. Some of the most beautiful things come out of a place where there is no hurry. So when God is confident that we can withstand the next stage is exactly when we need to go to the next stage. All these things need to be worked out with him before we're putting ourselves into a place that we're not able to withstand. The next stage, when in ceramics is it goes through the first firing.
Speaker 2:There are different types of clay. Some can't withstand a certain temperature or they will warp. Their solar melt melt and they look, you know, just not quite so different clays are made to do different things. I'm sure you've seen terracotta, which is an earthenware, and terracotta is what a lot of people will put their plants in, because it can hold some of the moisture content but it lets water drain away. If I was to take terracotta and fire it at a stoneware temperature, it would warp. I could do this kind of at a gradual stage. There's some things that you can do.
Speaker 2:But it's not intended for that purpose. It's intended for this whole other beautiful thing that another body of clay can't do, isn't designed to do, it's designed for something else. So I don't what happens if I put a plant in a vase like porcelain. I have to monitor the water level in that, because my plant could die. Because the porcelain um is not necessarily designed for something Like that, it's more of an artistic piece.
Speaker 2:Or it's more readily used for your teacups or things that require a little bit more refined Touch to them. There one is not necessarily greater than the other. If I'm a planter and I have all these wonderful plants to pot, I don't care what your teacup can do, and so it becomes this kind of moment of like what is this? What is the purpose? What is it holding? What is it designed to do? So a potter would know that. And it goes through that first fire and then it comes out and this is the point that we add glaze to it. And if I were to take that particular piece and just glaze it originally when it was still green, it would warp, it would melt, it would not look the right way. Again, it has to go through the process Was that sort of answering?
Speaker 1:your question. Yeah, very much, and this is part of why, for me, the metaphor is so rich, because when you sit with someone who actually knows what they're doing, it's not just about some dude sitting with a lump of clay who create and crushes something down and build and make something else. I love how you've just helped us understand the process that's involved and helping us, and I think that's just the richness of what the bible is about when god says to the j Jeremiah in one verse go down and check out the potter. Like to watch a potter at work. You are watching a craftsman, like it's an art form. It's something quite beautiful to watch. And the process I think is so important too.
Speaker 1:The concept of not rushing it. That's how much of our lives at times do we rush through because we want to get something done so that we can get on to the next thing, or we can do this so that we can do the next thing. It's just so much of our life is is rushed and we're not waiting to discover more of what I was only going to say the designer there, because I've been writing Jade, what God's up to. So Jade, when the firing has happened for you personally. So do you mind sharing anything in your story where you felt like that was a time when God fired something and something shifted or something changed, or part of your purpose? I guess might have come more into view.
Speaker 2:So, basically, you want me to just talk about the entirety of my daily life. Every day that I have been alive, there is a process. My daily life, every day that I have been alive, there is a process, it's all. It's all in becoming like gosh. Even right now, like in previous times, I've heard God speak a certain way, like I just know, like I'll come out in the morning, we're going to sit on the couch and he's right beside me and we just have a good jabber. And currently, in the last six months, I come out and sit on the couch and he seems a little farther away and he's not saying as much. But he's increased my awareness in other ways and so I'm beginning to notice his voice in a different manner, and this feels like a struggle to me.
Speaker 2:I want the easy pull up a chair, hang out with God. What do you want to do? Watch on TV? What book am I going to read? Who am I going to talk to today, god? What do you want to say? I like that ease. That was brilliant for me.
Speaker 2:Ah, it's been utterly frustrating at times currently, because I'm going, I don't hear you, what are you saying? And then something will drop into a different part of my knower and it's no less God, yeah. And now I see like, oh, oh, I'm noticing you in quite a unique way and it's actually making me fall more in love with a different part of his nature and I love it. I wouldn't want him to stop doing that. I love the chats when he comes and he pulls up a chair and and we just have this incredible conversation that I love that conversation. That I love that.
Speaker 2:But I love the way that he's talking to me now, where I know something in my spirit but he's not allowing me to say it. And can I be, um, okay with the quiet and just knowing? You know, we're believers, we're, we're the ones who the world says oh, you're believers, so you believe. So I get to believe, I get to build faith in these moments where he's not right here, you know, and can I be okay with with this aspect of the relationship? And what do I look like? And knowing that he's always growing us and taking comfort in?
Speaker 1:that, yeah, one of the reasons I enjoy talking with you, jade. There's not much that's traditional about you, oh, it's just you have such a so when, when I would talk to most people about being fired in the clay, they would talk about their intense trials, of times of I've walked through the valley of the shadow of death and it's felt like this and it's felt like that and that was the fire. You've just brought that into the place, which I love, um, of the day-to-day, the moments, the wrestles, um, and the discovery like it's again, you get to learn something new of god's character, and this is something that I find so valuable in the way that you share, because I do know your story a fair bit of it, I guess. To know some of those, what people would consider fiery trials have been hard, extremely hard, but for yourself, it's in the moments of each day of just going. He's readying me for something else. I haven't enjoyed the last six months at this capacity because I'd really, really love for him to sit on the couch with me right now and, just as you say, jabber away. That's the length and breadth of my Texan for today, but you've brought it into the moment and see for me, that encourages me, that inspires me Because, as you know with me over the last 12 months, me, that inspires me Because, as you know with me over the last 12 months, it's that shifting space as well of discovering more, where I used to discover it one way, but now it's like God's like yeah, that's how I used to do that for you, matt, and I found, in any relationship, jade, that's anyone of value.
Speaker 1:You meet somewhere, someone in communication, at the start, years down the track, we talk different things, we share different things, we have different ideas. You've worked out how much you can share or how times, how little, you can share. There's something dynamic in the relationship that grows, and I think that should be the same with my relationship with God. It grows, it's dynamic, it's inside of that place for him to go, yeah, yeah, that's how we used to do it and that's cool, that's absolutely cool, but honoring that space of your life and want to celebrate it. But it's like, do I want to grow in relationship? Well, what relationship on the planet don't I want to grow in? I want to know more of the people that I get to hang out with, all the people that I love, and what does that give to me? A greater awareness, a greater connection, and that, to me, is so much the paradigm of the way that I engage with God. I love discovering the new ways that he wants to talk or reveal or to share, and I love how you've then brought that into the place of the pottery, to going.
Speaker 1:This is what I actually call being fired by the heat that changes and I think at one point you said to me it changes the molecular structure at times, or at that level that creates this vessel.
Speaker 1:And like Paul would talk about how we're in God's great kitchen, we're all different utensil type things where he's like there's some just for a special purpose and there's others, you know, they're for the everyday kind of thing, and we entertain those pictures in our mind of what of that am I? But God's like, how about you have this conversation with me? I can share that with you. But we go on our, often on our high horse and we find the best concept of what does this look like for matt to be, actually to succeed, or to to do, or to conquer or to do whatever? And it's just like how about we slow this whole thing down? Uh, how about we allow the process to be a thing, and sometimes even in the crushing jade like that's, I find more about myself in those moments than the times when I feel like I'm firing on all cylinders.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, if we you know, any one of us looks back at our life and whatever we consider crushing, whatever that is, it's different to every person, um, and moment to moment. But if you look back and you've gained a bit of wisdom, you've gained revelation, you've gained, um, maybe a deeper, a deeper love for yourself, for others, for God. And if it was to say, okay, I can take away all of this crushing and this stress I've taken, just I can take that away, but you won't have this either. But you won't have this either.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and most of people most people, I think would say to a degree there's obviously some different situations, but most people would say no, actually that knowledge, that love, that relationship has all been a blessing to me at this point. I actually needed this growth, Because without it, none of this in the present makes sense, and so yielding to that, yielding to God's love, is such a great feeling. In the end it's.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And not comparing you know like being really you know we can admire people but like being okay to just be you, it's something I think we all need a dose of that medicine, like that lesson yeah, yeah, that's freedom yeah, but you don't get to be, you just like, like your greatest moment. You don't get there without some of this crushing yeah, some of this process. You didn't you know we need it, I think.
Speaker 1:We do. I'm going to put a sila moment in this Jade because we're about to break some records on length of podcast.
Speaker 2:Uh-oh.
Speaker 1:It's just such a joy to sit in this place with you and to jabber I only ever use that word with you. You know that right.
Speaker 2:I should use it more often.
Speaker 1:That's part of the joy of doing a friendship with you too, because when we jabber and I'll just put that in inverted commas for people who can't see the podcast it's amazing what more comes out of those moments of just the chat, just the conversation around and the honest chat, and that's part of I think that's like the finished product is helped by the people that you have surrounding you as well and they add into the finished product, is helped by the people that you have surrounding you as well and they add into the finished product. And so your wisdom, your expertise, your experiences, your story, your encouragement all of those things help this vessel here. So I just want to say thanks, yeah, thanks to thanks, yeah, thanks to you.
Speaker 1:We'll be back. For everyone listening or watching along, this is the Greater Things Podcast. It's great to be here and we'll be back next time In your ears. Bye for now. You can find us on Facebook, instagram and YouTube, or go to our website, greaterthingsinternationalcom.