Greater Things
A podcast about how faith fits with your everyday life. Matt interviews various speakers from around the globe and invites them to share their own experiences. For those who are asking big questions around faith, religion, church, and life.
https://www.greaterthingsinternational.com
Greater Things
Learning to discover God's voice with Roma Waterman
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God might be speaking more than you think, just not always through the channel you were trained to expect. I’m joined by my good friend Roma Waterman for a deep, practical conversation about hearing the voice of God, especially for people who feel stuck, unsure, or quietly discouraged because the “usual way” hasn’t worked for them.
We talk about discovering your personal pathway for discernment and connection, from Scripture as the foundation to the surprising places God often uses, like beauty, art, sunrise, and the hush of creation. Roma shares how creativity becomes a primary language in her relationship with God, and why the question isn’t only what God is saying, but how He wants to speak to you right now.
Roma also tells a defining story from her worship pastor days, being thrown into spontaneous prophetic worship alongside Graham Cooke, and how that single night reshaped her confidence, her songwriting, and her hunger to “hear what heaven is saying”. From there we explore worship and songwriting as modern-day prophetic voice, why movements often carry a sound, and how joy-filled creativity can be a sign of alignment rather than something to distrust.
If you’re longing for a faith that feels present, alive, and collaborative, press play. Then subscribe, share this with a friend who needs permission to listen differently, and leave a review so more people can find the conversation.
www.greaterthingsinternational.com
Welcome And The Big Question
SPEAKER_00In this episode of the Greater Things Podcast, I am with my good friend Roma Waterman. And we are talking about listening to the voice of God. And I'm getting curious with her as to how that happens for her. Hope you enjoy it. Well, today on the Greater Things Podcast, I'm back with a great friend of mine. Her name is Roma Waterman. I got to hang out with Roma online in a couple of conferences and courses that we've done together, and uh have a very like-hearted and like-minded approach to the kingdom of God. And uh we've got upcoming uh a wonderful event called Kingdom Collaboration, where I've invited Roma into a bigger conversation with me around listening to the voice of God. But before we get to that, how are you, Roma?
SPEAKER_02I'm excellent. How are you doing?
SPEAKER_00I'm doing good too. I love that you're excellent.
SPEAKER_02I'm feeling good this morning. Feeling good.
SPEAKER_00Good. You're caffeinated?
SPEAKER_02I'm not a co I'm not a coffee drinker, I'm a tea girl, and I drink it all day. So yes to that answer, that question.
SPEAKER_00So, what sort of Italian are you then?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I know. I I I think the the bottom line is I'm too hyped up to have more coffee. I I need to do things that keep me calm.
Roma’s Story And Creative Calling
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Well, it's been a bit of a moment since we last did a podcast together, Roma. I wonder if you could just introduce yourself to the listeners. Who is Roma Waterman?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, oh gosh. That's a it's a that's a funny question because when people ask me, you know, that question, what do you do? I don't like sort of writing off a CB or like I'm I think I'm more than what what a what a bio can say in my heart. You know what I mean? Like I so I think I'd rather go with that vein, which is I'm curious, I'm very creative, highly creative. Uh I love creating things, never have a problem with lots of ideas, uh, and also strangely don't have a problem with implementing them. I'm I'm I actually love I love creating spaces where people can encounter God. I love writing songs, books, words, and uh that brings me great joy and great fulfillment. So that's that's me, and I just love helping people experience God through creative ways.
SPEAKER_00One of the things I really love doing, Roma, is finding themes uh when I'm sitting with a person to go, what's the what's the heart, like what's the story, what's the meta-narrative of the person I'm sitting with? And I think you said the word create about six times.
SPEAKER_02I know, I think I did, sorry about that. It's not very creative, really.
SPEAKER_00Uh it's just the thing for me to go, this is a really great entrant entry point, and even to the things that we're talking about today. So the upcoming Kingdom Collaboration is about listening for God. And the other day when we sat down and chatted together, we talked around about some of the practices and the ways that we actually connect with God that we might be able to help people with as they are engaging with this place of does God speak to me? Uh and how does God speak to me? Creativity, would that be one of your main ways?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, yeah. And um I think I I love this topic because I think that we have had in mainstream church this idea that God speaks one way, but that's not even what the scripture says. In the Old Testament, it says God speaks one way and then another, when He's talking about, you know, some people have visions, some people have dreams. Of course, the word of God is our foundation. We don't want to do anything or hear in ways where um we're contradicting the scriptures, but when we are free to explore the creative ways that God speaks, I think that's pretty life-changing for everybody. So the way the Lord speaks to my husband is very different than the way he speaks to me. I love beauty, I love art, I love creativity. My husband is like he can going to church and listening to a to our sermon is his definition of complete boredom. But if you put him for two hours in front of a sunrise, God will download so much to him. And so I think when we part of our experience in getting to know God has to be how do we hear? It's not, it's it's it's not just what is he saying, it's what avenue does he want to speak in. You know, I've got a flash in my mind, a memory of uh just before COVID, we had the gift six weeks before COVID, we got to go to Europe and we were doing some ministry over there, and of course, had to spend a few days in Rome. And I mean, literally, you're walking down the street and there's just a church, and you just walk in, and the art, I mean, you know, Caraveggio paintings and famous artists that you just could that you've heard of on the internet. You're going in and you're just seeing them in these tiny little churches down some side street. And there was a point where it was so incredible and so overwhelming for me. I had to close my eyes because it was just too much, you know, the the beauty and the way that the Lord was speaking to me. But for the rest of my family, they hated it. They were like, Mum, we're not going into one more church, just walk by. And I'm like, I can't. God is speaking to me. And I think that um it was it was a great lightning bolt moment for me that God speaks through art, God speaks through the arts, music to me, but not He doesn't speak that way to others. So I think part of our quest in experiencing God is going, what's the way that I hear his voice? And leaning more into those spaces, and that'll be different for everybody. And there's it's a beautiful journey, it's a bit beautiful pilgrimage um into uh discovering who the Lord is. And I'll I'll end this little segment because I'm talking a lot being Italian, but it reminds me of the story. I'm a big Lord of the Rings fan.
SPEAKER_00Me too.
SPEAKER_02Hey, good. We're that's we're in good company, but I love when Frodo says to uh I can't remember who he says it to, but he just says, I'm going on an adventure. And I was like, that's exactly what it's like with the Lord. We're going on an adventure, and I think that when we reposition the way that uh hearing God looks, it does become this beautiful adventure. And he speaks in many different ways, but we'll have a primary way that is the most natural. And I don't think we many people discover that. They just think it means I have to go to church on a Sunday, I've got to listen to a message, and if I don't hear God, there's something wrong with me. But there's just so much more.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I could not agree more with you on that. You know, in 2019, Trish and I were in Rome and uh we stumbled into the D'Angelo Church, which I'd never heard of. And you walk in, and there's these enormous Michelangelo paintings that are on the walls, and it was just that surreal moment to go. I am walking in history right now that for us Australians is like myth and legend.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00And here they are just hanging on the walls.
SPEAKER_02It's incredible.
SPEAKER_00It is, and like for me, like I know when I went to the Vatican Museum, so I was very interested in the Christian component, the history of Christianity. The Vatican Museum is very much around the history of the Catholic Church.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00And you get to see what's important, you get to see what what moved, what shook for them, how God spoke to them through the art that they've produced. So it's that sort of thing for me that I enjoy stepping into those moments to engage with God inside of other people's experiences. Like when Michelangelo was painting paintings, like I have no idea what he was thinking, but I can see what he's projecting. And so much about his paintings was God in humanity.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
A Moment That Changed Everything
SPEAKER_00And I loved connecting with that. It's again for me, it's that sort of theme thing of going, what is the theme through all these D'Angelo paintings or the Raphaels? Um, and it's just I'm getting a like a full lesson on the arts as you're walking through, but you're also seeing how people engage with God. Yes, and this is part of I think the process that I've stepped into myself too, Roma, where it's like, How does God speak to Matt? Yes, like in that bigger conversation with everybody else, how does God speak to Matt? And being raised in a Baptist environment, it was very much like you said, it's in the Bible. And I don't know how many times I heard the phrase, if you want to hear God speak, read the Bible. If you want to hear him speak out loud, read the Bible out loud. Yep. And uh cheesy as, and I know some people swear to that concept, but I believe in a God that speaks into my world today. And yes, the Bible can do that 100%. Um, but like your man, like I love the sunrise, I love a sunset, I love the beach, I love being in creation, I love being Roma, where there is no other sounds other than what I can hear in creation. And this is where my spirit comes alive, and I desire to connect with God. Now, Roma, you're a songwriter, you author. When in your journey did you go, God's actually speaking to me?
SPEAKER_02Wow, you know, as soon as you say that, I'm thinking of a an experience. I was a worship pastor at a church, and uh we were just starting to explore what it meant to move with the Holy Spirit as opposed to the two up songs, the two down songs, you know, this is how church is supposed to look. And, you know, back then we're talking about maybe 20 years ago now, there was no, I there were no mentors, there were no precursors to what does it mean, what does prophetic worship mean, or what does spontaneous worship mean. Those weren't even terms I was familiar with. And uh, we had a speaker coming from uh from overseas, his name was Graham Cook. I don't know if you know any much about Graham Cook, and he was coming to be a guest speaker at this conference, and he said to our pastor, you know, on the Friday night, I've really sensed that I have a prophetic word that I want to release to the church, and while I'm doing that, I want Roma to to, I'm gonna do something with Roma. So she'll lead worship and then we're gonna tag team. Now, I had no idea what that meant, and I'm a person that loves ticking the things off the list. So I said to my pastor, what does this mean? Like, how do I prepare? And he was like, I don't know, why don't you just email Graham yourself and ask him? So I send Graham this message, hey Graham, you know, I'd love to hear what you're I'm looking forward to seeing you. Just let me know what's going to happen. And his email back was one sentence, and it was so great to hear from you, can't wait to see you soon. That was it. And I'm like, this is not the answer I'm looking for. So I send another email, yeah, that's good, but what are we doing? No response at all, heard nothing back. So we get to the Friday night of this event, and I'm quite nervous because I want to do the right thing. I want to, I'm I'm on staff at this church, I want to do a good job, you know, all those dynamics. And I'm leading worship, no one said anything to me. And it was, you know, it was a lovely service. I wouldn't say it was spec a spectacular moment in time. But at the end of the worship session, I thought, oh, he must have changed his mind. He's going to do something different. So I sort of calmed myself down. And then they introduced him. And you know, that's that bit where the the speaker's coming up onto the platform and the worship team's coming off, and we're crossing like ships in the night. So everyone's clapping as he's walking up on the platform, and we start walking off. And as I walk past him, he's got the microphone in his one hand, with his other hand, he grabs my hand, and he puts the mic down and he leans into my ear and he goes, Okay, this is what we're gonna do. And I am not gonna lie, I'm not exaggerating, panic. I just was like, What are you doing? I can't even have a conversation with you in this environment. And he says, I want you to go to the keyboard, I want you to play, and I am gonna release a prophetic word over the congregation that I've written. And every time I sense the Holy Spirit prompting me, I'm gonna turn around and look at you, and then I want you to sing something spontaneous in that moment. And I was just like, Are you kidding me? I've never done this before in my life, I don't even know what this looks like. I've got no one to follow or learn from, and I couldn't even fight him because it was just this moment. So I just went, okay. And if anybody's a musician here and plays the piano, you know what this is like when you're really nervous. Your leg, you're trying to put the foot, push the pedal down, your leg is shaking like crazy. I mean, I must have looked absolutely hilarious, but then the Holy Spirit. So I went to the keyboard thinking, I haven't got all the things. What's wrong with me? How I can't do this, all the things that maybe the the ancients of old in the scriptures said to God when God said, Do do this, this is my commandment to you. And as I put my hands on the keyboard and he started to speak, I've never had this experience before or since. It was incredible. I felt like um the only way I can explain it is it felt like a robe, a new robe, just came down from heaven and just landed on me.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_02And I I felt like I was where it was the way I explained it is it felt like I'd been wearing stilettos for 20 years of ministry, and and someone gave me a nice, comfortable pair of slippers. And as he started to speak, I just started getting these songs, these melodies, these thoughts. And just as I would have something kind of formed in my mind, he would turn around and look at me and I would sing that out. And this went on for two and a half hours. And uh there's people to this day that go, Do you remember that night? Do you remember what that was like? And at the end of the night, I remember just going, What just happened? That that that was incredible. And Graham said to me, he said, Roma, like a good dad, he said, Roma, you did good. He said, I didn't want to tell you what we were going to do because I knew you'd try to control everything. And I was like, Oh, okay. But that ruined me for the rest of up until now. I was like, I can never go back to just singing a nice little ditty in church. I have to hear what heaven is saying, and you know, sometimes that might be in a structured song, of course. You know, I've just released a new album actually in December called When God Sings. And it was exploring this journey of what does it sound like when God sings over me, Zephaniah 3.17. And what does it sound like when I'm singing to God and then he responds back to me in song? And that that really has that's marked my life and has made me really uh approach the songwriting process in a very different way. And it's been wonderful, it opened up a whole new world to me that I'm still discovering.
SPEAKER_00I think that's part of the point, though, isn't it? Like that I'm still discovering that that to me is any any relationship that has value in our lives. Like we want it to grow, we want it to become something more than what it is, even when we have these extraordinary moments with with God, like you had uh there on the keys uh behind Graham Cook. And all of that in the moment changes and shifts life into a different perspective that then starts growing. And that to me is part of the wonder and the beauty of the kingdom of God. It's the wonder and beauty of any friendship that we have, it can become something even more beautiful than what what it already is.
SPEAKER_02So true. Yeah, there's so much more, and I think that's that's we settle for so much less in our faith. You know, if we don't hear God or we don't hear him the way we we think we're supposed to, we just settle for we go, this is it, this is all there is, but it's not meant to be like that. It's meant to be uh I'm going on an adventure, you know?
Songwriters As Prophetic Voices
SPEAKER_00Yep. I've long long held the belief, Romo, that songwriters are modern-day prophets. I think in the old language they're called bards. Um and I I kind of like that too. Um the idea of bard and prophet or seer or whatever it is, but the access of creativity to me is one of the keys of the kingdom of God. So you know, when Jesus says to Peter, here's the keys, and he didn't give us any more detail around that, and I think Christians ever since have gone, What are those keys? Yes, as you grow in relationship, you find keys for relationship. Yes, and so the way you do marriage, the way you do parenting, the way you do friendship, you find keys that are helpful inside of that, and creativity for me has been probably one of the most powerful keys I have in connecting with my God and desiring that. And so for songwriters, and as I look back on on the years of you see people who have written songs, yourself included, there are moments where a song comes and it's like a prophetic anthem that happens for the days that are ahead. And so if you look back on the last, say, 40 or 50 years of worship and you've got songs like Shout to the Lord, um, that became an anthem because it was the prophetic nature of a church to say, God, we want you, we need you. Um, and it's in that place. And then you have songs like New Wine, uh, and you all of a sudden everyone's preaching around this idea of what does it look like for new wine? And so you see these iconic songs that layering in God's voice inside of the generations. And I don't know if I'm slow to the party, but at one point I'm like, we've been singing these and now they're actually happening. And it sort of came to that realization that people who sit in that place of creativity and songwriters is what we're talking about in this moment. There's something about rhythm, there's something about melody, and there's something about God that combines beautifully to create voice. Would you agree with that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, oh my goodness, a hundred percent. And I totally resonate with what you're saying about uh songwriters being modern-day prophets. And if you there's actually a uh we did some uh a study once in a songwriting workshop around the top ten CCLI songs. And when you do this, and like I love doing this when we teach this, we say to people, have a look at the songs, tell me what you notice. And most people don't pick this up, but if you actually look at a majority of the top 10 songs that are being sung in your nation, you'll find that most of them are over five years old. Yeah, some of them are 10, 20 years old. What's going on there? Songwriters are prophets, they've written songs that now the church is still singing because it's for now. And that's encouraging to me because as a songwriter, there's songs I've written that I thought were amazing songs. You know, I'm like, wow, but they maybe they didn't fly in the season that I wrote them in. And I've been a bit discouraged sometimes when that's happened. And then you might pull that song out three or four years later, and it's just for the moment. And so I think what the encouragement is is don't dismiss something that you've written or created that was a couple of years ago, for example, or a year ago, because really it's prophetic. We are the the voices of a generation that need to hear God's voice. And so um I firmly believe that if we are leaning in to hear the Father's voice, the songs we are writing shape the church. You know, um, I I once heard that a theologian, I don't know which theologian it was, but they said that they couldn't tell when they were studying moves of God, great moves of God, because if you study moves of God, every one of uh of the great moves of God, modern and ancient, had a sound attached to it. There were songs that went with the movement. You've got the Wesley brothers, you know, um Franklin Graham, uh Billy Graham, sorry, he had uh uh Irisanke, I think it was, Hill's song, Bethel, you know, whatever you think about these movements, you'll either like or hate them, but there was always a there's always a sound attached to them. And this theologian said, we can't tell whether the songs came before the move or if the move came and then the songs came. They're so intertwined. And I think that when we have that revelation, it changes the weight of what we're doing. Like it it makes us realize and appreciate that God could use us to see a move of God take place. And it's not about charts, it's not about how many people know the songs. I mean, I wish local churches were writing more of their own songs for this very reason, because this is what shapes moves of God. This is what shapes what God wants to do. It's like it's the our worship is the song lines for the country of God. That's how I see it, you know. And so yeah, I just you got me started on a topic I'll never, I I may not stop talking about. I maybe I'll end that thought there, but it's powerful.
SPEAKER_00I love the idea of songlines, particularly with the ancient concept here in Australia. You know, some of the people you're talking about there, like Irisanke and D. Or Moody. I remember a phrase where it was said that as many people came to Jesus through Irisanke's voice as as Dior Moody's preaching. And so Dior Moody's credited with a million souls saved. And so if you think about Irisanke, which a lot of listeners wouldn't have no idea who these people are, but is so true. The songs that shape like, why is it that we we remember songs more than sermons?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00You got any thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_02I I think that some I don't this I do think about this because I was having a conversation with my son on the way to school and he was trying to memorize some things for a test, and it was really boring. It was maths, not my favourite subject, right? So he was talking about stuff and I was like, I don't even understand what you're saying. And I said to him, Have you ever thought about putting some of this stuff into a song? You'll remember it if it's in a song. And I think partly just from a completely intellectual view of melody, it's like you just uh activate more parts of your brain, isn't it? It's like when a song is attached to words, it's like all the windows are open as well as the door of the house. That's kind of how I see it. And um, I think God created us like that. And I think that that's why music is, I mean, you know, the the one of the most popular books in the scriptures is the Psalms. And it's 800 years there of songs. It's the it was the hymn book of the ancients, you know. And uh I I often wonder what the so what the melodies would have sounded like. I wish we'd kept we'd had that, you know, because I just wonder the connection between the two, what what the power would have been to hear the song, hear the melody with the words. Um, but yeah, I think it's a very, very powerful way to encounter Jesus.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You could sit with David to listen to the heart of a man who's who wrote Psalm 23 or uh his great psalm of confession of Psalm 51. Can you imagine the heart of the song if you could listen to a man who is in that place of going, I want God back, I want that place back. And that's to me at times with our some of our songs, is they lose the heart because one, we might have sung them forever, or maybe we just don't connect with the words that are there. But when you come across, and you do this, Roma, when you come across a person who sings with heart and spirit, yes, that's to me, there's something of God that's actually communicating with that. And so to listen to you sing, even to watch you sing, Roma, is it's an invitation into seeing how God connects with you. And that sort of stuff you can't fake. Like uh I think at times in our churches where we have platforms that are so high and mighty, performance has often robbed us of connection. And I think Roma, like the things that you're talking about are removing all those obstacles and saying, Hey, here's my heart. It's communicating something that God is speaking to me, and I'm inviting you into the conversation as well. Does that is that kind of how you Roman?
Expanding What Worship Can Be
SPEAKER_02I love what you're saying, and it it it begs, it makes me think about how we need to broaden the spectrum of what worship looks like in the church. So there's lots of people I know, for example, who if you incredible songwriters, incredible musicians, but if you told them this is what worship is, it's two upsongs, two down songs, and tracks that run everything from beginning to end, they'll die. They'll just be like, But is this what church is? Is this what it's supposed to be like? And I'm like, we need to be at the forefront of a new uh a new release of anointed creativity in the church where we ask the question, is this what it's supposed to look like everywhere? Now, I think it is part of it. I love congregational worship. I actually even love that kind of worship I just mentioned, but that is one spectrum of light in the kingdom, and there's so many other ways that we can worship him through our sound and through our songs. And the adventure is going, well, what has God put on me? What could I try out? You know, for some people it might be rap or dance music, or you know, like for me, this When God Sings project that I wrote, I almost didn't do it because it didn't fit into that congregational worship space. And also, I'm not doing music as my primary thing anymore. So I'm like, what am I doing? This is costing a lot of money. Maybe I'm wasting my time. Will people get it? Will they get it that this the album is a map? It's a journey of someone going into the secret place and singing to God and then God responding in a spontaneous way. And even with the producer, when I was recording the project, now uh my producers uh you know doesn't have a church background, he has a faith, but he doesn't have a church background. And I would say to him, Look, I've just recorded something spontaneously in my studio at home. Can I give it to you? And can can you add strings and make it orchestral? And he'd ring me up and go, I'm so confused. There's no click track, there's I don't know what the form is. Can you next time you do it, can you add a click track? Can you do this? And I tried and I couldn't, I was like, it doesn't work for this genre. Can you just experiment? And so we went on a journey. Almost every song had a different approach and a different way of experimenting. And I remember him saying at one point, uh, so the the the opening track in the song is called Like a Child, like a child, I run to the father's house where I won't be turned away. For you welcome me with your loving arms, in your throne room I can stay. And I drink from the fountain of living water, splash all my cares away. Like a child, I come to the father's house. This is my secret place. Now, this has been a little tune that I've just sang in my prayer time at home for years. I reckon that that's maybe 10 years old. And that's all I've ever had. Whenever I've tried to go back and just write another section, nothing would come out. And one day I was worshiping the Lord, singing that tune and getting frustrated. I was like, Lord, why can't why is nothing else coming out? And he went, because it's finished. And I'm like, that can't be finished. It's like six lines. And he's like, what would it look like, Roma? If you just gave that to Adrian and said, do something with it. So I sent him this one minute recording. I said, This is kind of nothing. I don't even know it could turn into anything. At the end of the day, he sent me this track that honestly, it absolutely blew my mind because it was exactly what I saw in the spirit was which was this pilgrim on this journey like through the moors, trying to find the secret castle where the Lord was waiting for them. It sounded exactly like that. And I said to Adrian, I don't know how you came up with this. And he went, Roma, the song just told me what to do. Wow. And I I just, I mean, even as I say that, I feel the weight of the Lord's glory as I think about that. That we've got to find these places and explore these places where the let's not think about where they fit, let's just enjoy and be curious. And I think that when we do that, we might even create new genres of worship. Uh, and we are uh raising up new generations to worship in spirit and in truth. That's what that's what I firmly believe.
SPEAKER_00There's so much so much in what you've just shared. Uh I love the idea of the song of like a child. Um, because to me that's the going back to the place of childlike wonder and fun to explore, to adventure. Like you say, let's go on an adventure, like a child. And then I love how you've gone through the moors to the castle. Like to me, that's the safe place. So I can hear, like, even inside of that, God saying, Come to me like a child, and I'll lead you through those dark places to get you into the place of safety. And so that's when I'm listening to songs like that, I'm going, God, what is it you're actually wanting to say to me inside of that? And uh allowing that then to become a conversation. I love how you said it might not be anything, but here it is. And it's I think at times we often devalue like little thoughts that we have that flow into our minds of going, where does that come from? And let's just curio get curious around what it comes from rather than saying, Oh, that's not God.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think for me in the church for the longest time, I think we've put the fear into people about hearing the voice of God. And I think if we fear hear hearing God right, I don't think we'll ever risk getting him um getting getting into that place of going, This is God, this is what he's saying to me. But in places of curiosity and in community, we can sit down together and go, what's God saying? through a song like that, and allowing that to be. And so then you have this producer who comes along and goes, the song actually spoke to me. Um, and inside of that, there's this probably Roma doing cartwheel moment to go, Oh, yeah, that's what I've that's what I'm aiming for. That's what I want. I want the song to speak in ways that I can't even properly articulate, and his creativity combines with your creativity to flow back into your spirit that absolutely undoes you because it's just something of what this creative moment is actually doing. And I think that's kind of the point of even this conversation that creativity is often unplanned.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00But when we collaborate, we can actually see like what you saw, the producer, like a double portion.
SPEAKER_02Ah, it's it wouldn't it be wonderful if I mean it's not always going to happen because part of the journey is you're gonna write songs that are uh, you know, the the songwriter of Moon River, very old song from the 40s, he actually said the best songwriting um technique is write for the waste paper basket.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_02And what he meant by that is some songs are just rubbish, but they take you on the journey to greatness. And I think that we we need to accept that, that some of our work the world's not going to hear it. I've got hundreds of songs that no one's ever going to listen to, but because of them, like a child was written, you know, and so um I think that that's part of the creative process, part of the creativity of God is you know, just go on the journey and not everything is going to be a million-dollar idea. But that's the that's the whole point. Just go on the journey and and let that creativity merge with our creativity to see what happens. I mean, I think that's what David did. I think that's why he was the inventor of hundreds of instruments that came from the mind of God. He had union with God, and so he was able to create, and that's really the key, isn't it? It's union with Christ. Apart from apart from him, we can do nothing. You know, he's the it's that whole I am the vine, you are the branches idea, is that when we have that union, that that creative lifeblood is flowing through us. And I mean, there's no limit to what could be created or what could happen when we when we sit in that space. And it's also so freeing, isn't it? I mean, when you think about being a pastor of a local congregation, which is good and it's wonderful, and that is it, it's not like it's a lesser thing, it's what is God calling you to do. That was a season for you, but now you you're flourishing because you you chose to go to a place that you didn't know where it was going to take you, but there was that creative spark, and you just said, I'm gonna explore this, and now you're in this space that brings you so much joy. And I think that's the other point too. I know I'm going down rabbit wines here, but some I think we punish ourselves when something is joy-filled. We feel like if it's full of joy, maybe we shouldn't be doing it, you know. But I actually think that that's one of the um it's not a luxury to create and feel joy from what we create. It is the glue for everything that we would do in our lives. And if we actually created more space to create and experience that joy, I think it makes the rest of our life work.
SPEAKER_00Agreed. Agreed. And that's like we call it a risk to step out into those places. But when you get familiar with creativity, and I like the idea of creating for the waste paper basket, like I'm writing at the moment a book and I am rewritten the entire book and I'm rewriting again. And was the first one rubbish? I don't know if it was rubbish, but I just know that when I'm in the place of creativity, more creativity flows.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
Joy, Dominion And Collaboration
SPEAKER_00And that is like to me, it's like any good friendship. Once you get to that place where authenticity and vulnerability, like spirit and truth, is we can actually do more. And if you're if I'm scared of what you're gonna do, if you're scared of what I'm gonna do, if you think that I'm gonna go, no, Roma, that's not then creativity shrinks to nothing and opportunity ceases. But when freedom and permission comes into places of creativity, this is that the like the idea of God doing it way more above than we can hope, dream, think, or imagine. And I wonder how many Christians, Roma, want to want to actually live in that place.
SPEAKER_02I think people are yearning for it. Yeah. I think that they are I think there's a quiet, silent explosion going on, you know, in people's lives. And maybe when they hear a podcast like this, I hope it it gives people permission that this is what it's. I mean, he calls us co-labourers with him. He he said to Adam, you know, he he wanted someone to um uh uh be creative with him, got him to name the animals, got him to have dominion over the earth. And I just think that's what the Lord wants for us. The plan never changed. You know, I heard somebody say, another side note, side note, Rabbit Warren here, but I heard someone say the other day, and it has just stuck with me, said, God is not into replacement theology, which is, oh, all that didn't work, so now we're gonna do something else, or um the world is falling to bits, but God's coming back and we'll be out of here soon. That is not the theology of the kingdom. God is not into replacement theology. He is into redemption theology. That's theology, that's what his heart has been from day one. And so when Adam was given dominion, he still wants that for us. And I think that the avenue is this uh the joy of creativity, the joy of creating, the joy of going to the genius zone, that's what I call it, and just going, all right, Lord, what does it mean for me to have dominion in my sphere? What does that look like? Dominion is not control, dominion is not, I am going to be in control here. That was never what dominion meant meant to be. That's what humans have turned it into. Dominion is co-labouring with Christ, it's co-creating with him, it is uh tending to the garden, which you know all about. And uh I love this idea of exploring what that looks like, and I I feel like it has opened up a whole new world to me to to to go down that road. I want it for everybody.
SPEAKER_00Well, Roma, I'm a very much a beneficiary of the co-labouring. And uh when you wrote the the foreword for my book, Three Trees, um I remember when you sent it through and I sat down with Trish and she's like, Wow, Roma gets it. She absolutely gets it. That's beautiful, and it's that beautiful moment where like it's just that the unity piece that creates then something more that can be. And I I love how you said like the redemption theology rather than replacement, too. Because, like, again, so many of Christians live in the fear of what is to come rather than the presence of what is. And creativity for me is not a future event, it's a present event. Yeah, what's God's voice is a present event. Um I know what he has spoken, which that's why the Bible is so beautiful as well, because it gives us an understanding of his character and his story. But what is he speaking today that's going to help me live in this day and the days that are ahead? And finding people who are willing to collaborate, connect, um, unity, um, get creative together. Yes, we actually start building. And my mind goes, What could I do next with Roma? That's what my mind does when you're in that place.
SPEAKER_02I love that. And and I think that um collaboration is kingdom. Um, you said something before, and I I it made me think about something else, but you were like, you know, people going, Oh, that is that person going to steal my ideas? And I I've had people say that to me, you know, I've gone to places and it's I think it's the hugest compliment when I see somebody doing something that maybe I started or whatever, you know. But I I remember I went onto a website and the exact wording that was on something I'd created was on this website from someone I didn't even know. And someone said, What are you gonna do? And I was like, I'm not gonna do anything. And I'll tell you why, I'm connected to the vine. There's plenty where that came from. This is just one tiny little two percent of what the Lord can download to me. I'm already moving on to the next thing. And when we have this trust in God being the uh the instiller of creative juice in my life, we have it's a joy to collaborate with others. We can champion other people because there's plenty more where that came from. And and the Lord He doesn't play favorites, he's got the same for you, he's got the same for you know many of our colleagues and friends. And when we come together without that fear, that's where true creativity in the kingdom can flourish.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, agreed.
Kingdom Collaboration Invite And Farewell
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Roma, I'm gonna put a sila moment in what we're saying. Uh, we're gonna give away all of our goodies for uh collaboration.
SPEAKER_01Lovely.
SPEAKER_00So uh for people who want to get in contact with Roma, like how do they do it?
SPEAKER_02Oh gosh. Uh just go to socials, Instagram, Roma Waterman, Facebook, uh website, they can go there. We've also got uh online courses and and such, but if they just go to our website, they can see everything there that we that we offer.
SPEAKER_00And you're on Spotify, right?
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes, that's all new for me. I was like, how do I do this? But yes.
SPEAKER_00I'll put all the links in the uh down below as but as people are listening to it, you can go down and have a look uh for yourself. But Roma, thank you for hanging out with me in this space. I'm looking forward to uh May 2, uh 2026, when we're uh sitting in the same Zoom room with a whole bunch of people and talking around things of listening for God. Now, for you guys who are listening, if that's something you want to jump in on, uh have a look at the greater thingsinternational.com website, and you can register there and secure your spot. There's only 60 places available for this one. We do it this way because we're putting a live QA into what we're doing, and we want people's voices and questions to come in to what's happening for Roma and I, and we can answer you guys in real time. But thank you, Roma. It's been an awesome moment to hang out with you.
SPEAKER_02It's been a privilege. Thank you, Matt, for all the spaces you're creating. Like it's such an honor to be a part.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Well, this is the Greater Things podcast. Uh, thanks for listening along, and we'll be back in your ears next time. Bye for now. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube, or go to our website, greater thingsintern.com.