When I first held my child in my arms, the surge of joy was shadowed by an unexpected fear: Am I ready for this? It's a question that haunts many new fathers, and in our latest podcast, Joseph Conway from Vita Health Group and I, Glenn Thompson, get candid about the emotional whirlwind that is fatherhood. We delve into our personal stories, laying bare the challenges and societal pressures that can weigh heavily on a dad's mind. Our conversation isn't just cathartic—it's a lifeline for dads out there feeling the squeeze of being the unflappable provider while still wanting to be present and engaged in their children's lives.
This intimate episode peels back the layers of paternal mental health, emphasizing why self-care isn't selfish but necessary for new dads. We tackle the isolation that can come with traditional gender roles and the powerful, often generational, impact a father's mental well-being has on his family. Joseph and I also discuss how the workplace can be a cornerstone of support, advocating for flexible paternity leave and mental health training to foster a healthier balance. Whether you're a seasoned dad, a grandparent, or just starting on this journey, join us as we break the silence on fatherhood's least talked about aspect—men's mental health.
When I first held my child in my arms, the surge of joy was shadowed by an unexpected fear: Am I ready for this? It's a question that haunts many new fathers, and in our latest podcast, Joseph Conway from Vita Health Group and I, Glenn Thompson, get candid about the emotional whirlwind that is fatherhood. We delve into our personal stories, laying bare the challenges and societal pressures that can weigh heavily on a dad's mind. Our conversation isn't just cathartic—it's a lifeline for dads out there feeling the squeeze of being the unflappable provider while still wanting to be present and engaged in their children's lives.
This intimate episode peels back the layers of paternal mental health, emphasizing why self-care isn't selfish but necessary for new dads. We tackle the isolation that can come with traditional gender roles and the powerful, often generational, impact a father's mental well-being has on his family. Joseph and I also discuss how the workplace can be a cornerstone of support, advocating for flexible paternity leave and mental health training to foster a healthier balance. Whether you're a seasoned dad, a grandparent, or just starting on this journey, join us as we break the silence on fatherhood's least talked about aspect—men's mental health.
Enjoy a moment of relaxing calm with the Vita Health Group well-being series of podcasts to make you feel good, keep you healthy, help you make changes to your life. Vita Health Group is an award-winning market leader and has been at the forefront of healthcare for the past 30 years. Vita Health Group Making People Better.
Speaker 2:Yes, hello. It's time for another of the Making People Better podcasts, all part of a series with some great advice from many of the Vita Health Group experts. We tackle a whole range of subjects which we hope you find very beneficial. So thanks for joining us. I'm Glenn Thompson. My job to host this series, along with a variety of guests and experts from Vita. Vita Health Group works by providing integrated physical and mental health services to employers, insurers, the NHS and private patients. Today's podcast is all about fatherhood and how it can impact men's mental health. This episode is all part of the Men's Mental Health Week and to discuss the topic, I'm joined by Season's podcast pro, joseph Conway. Joseph is a mental health trainer at Vita Health Group. Joseph, you're becoming an old pro at this, aren't you? How are you doing?
Speaker 3:Thank you very much, Glenn, and all of the due tutelage, of course, as well. Oh, bless you so very well thank you, bless you.
Speaker 2:Okay. So today's podcast all about men's mental health. As we've established at the beginning there, how far the hood can impact your mental health. First of all, how has becoming a father impacted you and your mental health? Because I know that recently you, your little one, is what, nine months old now you were telling me off air and have you noticed any change in the way you?
Speaker 3:are as a person.
Speaker 3:Yeah well, I'd be lying, glenn, if I said it hadn't changed me and I'd certainly hold my hands up to say I was probably naive to think it wouldn't affect me at first.
Speaker 3:So you know, my current job at Vita is mental health trainer, but my clinical trade of your life is in psychotherapy. So I thought as a therapist I've gotten really good at self-reflecting over the years and I could tap into my therapeutic training over those years of working in mental health and wellbeing, which I would have thought would have helped me to navigate this quite new, exciting so in a pretty scary world of pregnancy, childbirth and parenting. And I'm sure my fiance, catherine, when she hears this, will be saying oh, I told you so, but I wasn't prepared for what to expect and really to be able to adjust to this new role and responsibility. I was, I was very fortunate to be able to be there the whole time and to be present at Karina's first moments. That's our little girl, karina. When she first come into the world I felt like once she was finally born and I saw her and also got to hold her for the first time. I was, of course, overjoyed and relieved as well that she was finally here.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's an old cliche, isn't it that you know, the moment that little baby is born and you see it for the first time with your own eyes and you hold that baby for the first time, it changes everything, doesn't it? It's an old cliche, and so many fathers say the same thing that it does change your whole mindset, your whole outlook on life. You know, what was maybe once all about you as an individual is now all about this little baby and how your whole mental, sort of well-being, if you like, and psyche changes it does, glenn, definitely.
Speaker 3:Well, that was my experience and that's what I hear from other people as well. And you're told beforehand of oh, it's magical, what's this, it's that, and you can't really imagine it to you there. And as well as all of those great feelings, I also had this sense of shock from the whole experience as well, and that moment when I hold her, and then it was almost like this intense moment of fear come over me just for a moment, but intense nonetheless, and it was a fear that this little tiny thing in front of me now that was the rest of my life wrapped up in a bundle of flesh and bones, Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And that moment you take that little bundle home from the hospital, you know I remember me and my wife taking our first son home from hospital in the car, and I drove so carefully.
Speaker 1:I'm a careful driver.
Speaker 2:Anyway, my wife always says to me go a bit faster, for goodness' sake, I'll do it. But you know, you drive so carefully and you suddenly get home with this little bundle and you think we're on our own, now we've got to look after this life on our own. And you know, mentally it does change, you doesn't it?
Speaker 3:It does, and I had the same experience as well of just imagining that I have to then ensure this baby's safety and survival 24 hours a day for the rest of my life. And it was that enormity of the responsibility, felt overwhelming for that moment, so raw, so powerful, that this was it. Now I'm committed to this baby from this day until my last.
Speaker 2:Joe, how do societal pressures and expectations impact men's mental health and well-being as they become fathers?
Speaker 3:then would you say Traditionally, men have been expected to feel certain roles and exhibit specific behaviours related to fatherhood. Whilst societal norms are evolving, many men still face pressure to conform to these expectations, which can then create various challenges and stresses. And do you know, I see that in the people I speak to in support of time. So it's those traditional gender roles that often dictate that men should be stoic, strong and solely focused on providing for their families. And then these expectations can then create feelings of inadequacy, as men may feel they struggle to balance work and family life, feeling the need to meet social standards well, being actively involved in their children's upbringing as well.
Speaker 2:I mean, while some parents get through it with no problem at all, there are individuals and fathers particularly, as you say. They've had this role of bringing the money into the house as being the breadwinner, and all these extra pressures on them now with the child's presence. I mean how can and very often you know, you hear it on the news, you hear it so you read it in the papers that you know things have happened to fathers. They just simply can't cope with it. I mean, what are the coping strategies?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, in regards to different coping strategies, I think, first of all, it's been able to recognise what's happening at that time and being able to have the courage to be able to speak up and express your emotions and concerns openly as well, whether that be with your partner or someone you can trust. Any kind of support network that you have available to you can be able to be really useful to alleviate some of that stress and provide that sense of relief.
Speaker 2:And what about risk factors and triggers that can contribute to mental health problems in new fathers?
Speaker 3:Yeah well, new fathers may experience many mental health problems from their pregnancy, from childbirth, from trying to raise a child, and the obvious ones sleep deprivation is a big one. You already mentioned financial concerns. You know babies are expensive. You may have been a two income household. Are you going down to one? Is it going to affect your ability to work like you did before? You're going to have to move, and becoming a father can also have an impact on your relationship too. So it's both their mother and father adjust to their new roles. There can be those, to put it like the communication challenges, with both parents feeling the strain of that change, and that can lead to conflict and disagreements, and also physical and emotional demands as well, which can then have an impact on their couple's intimacy and sexual relationship.
Speaker 2:And I guess, for a father particularly, you know, who may be used to, before the child has arrived, going off and playing football, playing sport, getting involved in other outside activities outside of the marital home, you know, suddenly there's this feeling of isolation, maybe that the father's now feeling he's got to stay at home and look after a baby, look after a wife, look after a partner, whatever. There must be that sort of feeling of isolation that can, I guess, get some guys down, oh yeah there's definitely been progress in recognising the importance of supporting fathers and societal structures and support systems.
Speaker 3:They still predominantly focus on mothers, and rightly so. But men may feel isolated or excluded and being able to sort of lack the resources and support they need to navigate the challenges of fatherhood, and this then contributes to those feelings of isolation and being overwhelmed. So for myself, glenn, I went to every single scan and appointment that I could, and all of the midwives and all the hospital staff that we met. They were absolutely amazing and they provided excellent care for Catherine.
Speaker 2:So you were actively involved in everything from you know conception basically right the way through right the way through to birth. I mean what I mean by that is you went off to all these scans, you went to the various meetings and the health clinics and what have you to the doctor.
Speaker 3:Well, as much as I could, definitely. But you know what I was never once asked how I was or how I was feeling really, or how was my mental health, and you know that really stood out for me. Now, being in the profession that I am, I believe that I've built up a really good, solid foundation of resilience. So for me that wasn't an issue as I know how and where I can get support from should I need it, but it just really stuck with me that for others I can imagine that would be quite an isolating time and then also potential to have that negative effect on the father's mental health.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you mentioned it earlier, the lack of sleep as well. I mean, you, lack of sleep does cause a lot of anxiety, a lot of depression, doesn't it? And you know you are getting sleepless nights if you're sharing the duties of waking up overnight. I mean, you can't feed the baby. You know there is that sort of anxiety, that sort of mood swinging as well, which all leads to mental health problems, doesn't it it?
Speaker 3:does, and for us. So Catherine did breastfeed, so I wasn't the one who had to be up to feed the baby, but I was still waking up, Of course. You know the baby was in our room, wanted to make sure that Catherine and the baby were okay, and it was sort of that natural instinct to protect that kicked in as well of you know, hearing a noise, I'm not just going to sleep through it, You're awake as well and that impacts you the next day and you get two weeks paternity leave if you work for an organization. If you work on your own, you don't have that, do you? So you know you still have those responsibilities, those work duties the next day to attend to.
Speaker 2:So the mental health there it's fair to say the mental health of fathers can impact the overall family dynamic, can't it?
Speaker 3:Yes, it definitely does, and I would say it's important to recognize that mental health is interconnected within the whole family system. So we need to be supportive of fathers mental well being only to benefit your own health, but also it then creates that ripping effect you know that positively impacts the overall family dynamic and the well-being of partners, children and everyone else involved. So when fathers have good mental health, they can create a positive emotional climate within the family.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about maintaining good mental health in during fatherhood. What are some effective strategies, Joe, that you can suggest?
Speaker 3:So, in regards to maintaining some good mental health strategies would be like we said already about keeping out the communication, saying if things aren't going right, if they're not feeling okay, then that's okay. Let's get some support in place for you now, or an outlet for your thoughts and emotions, rather than bottling that up, and also educate yourself. So I'm sure some of our listeners would be familiar with the seven Ps Poor planning promotes poor performance. We've removed a couple of those Ps there, but we can then use the same concept when looking at becoming a father. So seeking knowledge about child development, parents and techniques and common communication skills can all help men feel more confident in their role as a father.
Speaker 2:It's interesting, joe, how nobody actually asked you about how you were feeling emotionally, mentally, physically, I guess, during the lead-up to the birth of your daughter. I find that quite fascinating. In a way, the male, the partner, is to a certain degree, I guess, forgotten about.
Speaker 3:It's what it felt like to me and I'm talking from my own personal experience, but then also since becoming a father and, as you do, discuss with other fathers what their experience was, and that does sound to be quite similar. So I'm very basing it on a very small group of people, of course, and I'm not putting this down to the medical staff who attended, because, as I said before, they did an amazing job and perhaps maybe even just subconsciously, just focusing on the mother but then forgetting about the father or the father feeling forgotten, or then not focusing on the importance of the mental health of both parties there, both parents who are involved in that, and also Glenn. When we're talking about effective strategies, a real key one for me is self-care. So we need to be promoting self-care activities. So we know self-care it's regular exercise, adequate sleep, if you can get it, maintaining hobbies and engaging in activities that do bring you joy and relaxation can all positively impact our mental well-being. So we know that already anyway, before becoming fathers. But sometimes that can be put to the side because it can be incredibly hard to find a time to do that or to justify it to a partner.
Speaker 3:But one of my favorite sayings, which I say quite often in my training sessions would be that you can't give from an empty cup. So if you're going to be able to support others, then we first of all have to take care of ourselves, and I get that definitely that balancing self-care without feeling selfish or being perceived as selfish is quite a common concern, which is why we all need to recognize that taking care of yourself is not selfish, but it's necessary for your overall well-being. So when you prioritize your self-care, you're better able to show up and care for others in your life, including your family. So it's not an indulgence, it's an investment in your mental health, in your emotional and physical health, and we should all be embracing self-care as a positive example. And by practicing it yourself, you set in a positive example for your children too, showing them that taking care of oneself is important. It's not only benefits you, but it also helps them understand the value of it too.
Speaker 2:Something we haven't touched on is that very often you know, when a baby does arrive on the scene, particularly if it's first in the family, the first baby, that you're having the first child, you know all the attention has been from the partner to you, hasn't it? And vice versa. Suddenly, the attention from your partner is diverted on to that little baby, and quite rightly, I think, and some guys you know, and I do know of a few people that this has happened to they've suddenly felt, as I mentioned earlier, isolated, they feel ignored, and I think it's important for the partner, the mother, to draw the partner into the caring of the child, because very often they get cast aside, don't they? And that can make you feel equally depressed and make the partner feel worthless, if you like.
Speaker 3:It certainly can do, glen, and that's why we all have a part to play in that, don't we as well? And it goes back to those kind of societal norms, doesn't it? And we need to be including the father as much as we do the mother, because they're both, you know, primary caregivers to this child, and so, when you look at it for the overall family dynamics, it's really going to pay a key role in child's development, isn't it? So if you've got one parent who suffers with poor mental health and talking about men's mental health week, we're talking about their father here that can then have a detrimental and also lasting impact on an individual's development. And I'm sure it's no surprise, glen, I see a lot of that in therapy. So, with the clients that I work with and coming to me with their experiences of their upbringing, their childhood, their development, their relationships with their father and their mother, of course, and any other caregiver, and what we see here, then, is this intergenerational impact, how the effects of a father's poor mental health, for example, can extend beyond the immediate family.
Speaker 3:So children growing up in that environment where a father is struggling may then be more vulnerable to mental health challenges themselves, and what it does it well, potentially maintains that cycle of poor mental well-being across generations.
Speaker 2:As a mental health trainer, Joe, and you go all over the country. You talk to people from all over the country in this particular area, parenthoods in men what's the common thread that comes through to new dads?
Speaker 3:for you as a health trainer, I think really, first of all, it's that stigma to it again, because it goes back to we discussed this last time, didn't we know of our podcast? Is that ability to speak up, to have that voice to say actually no, I'm not okay, or I need some support, or this is really challenging and going against those societal norms. I remember someone saying to me about the experience oh, isn't it magical? And I found myself saying, oh, yes, it is. But my inner voice was saying, no, it was really scary. And what was that? What was stopping me saying that?
Speaker 3:So no, I don't you know I'm honest, a lot more honest because I've had that time to self reflect on it. But I think how many other people responded in those situations just because it's what we're expected to say, or what we perceive is expected to say, when actually we need to be saying oh no, I found that quite distressing, I could do with some help. Or actually saying this isn't what I expected it to be, or it's quite scary, or I don't know what I'm doing, or I feel isolated.
Speaker 2:And I knew dad shouting about what they want help wise when it comes to becoming a new father. You know enough guys coming forward and saying, look, I'm feeling isolated, I'm feeling a little bit lonely, I'm feeling there are problems with me being a dad. Are enough guys coming forward or are they suffering in silence?
Speaker 3:It's hard to say really. I think people definitely are speaking up more, which is great, but the ones who are suffering in silence? We just wouldn't know, would we? Because they put on that brave front, they pretend to be strong, they pretend to be the provider and they're doing it out in front, but actually we don't know what's going on inside them, do we? So that's why having these kind of conversations is so important, because what I want to get across is that just awareness that how you feel is completely normal. Talk about it, get some support, don't just bottle it up all the time. Speak up, share.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Sharing is what it's all about, isn't it? And what about employers and workplaces? Can they better support father's mental health and work-life balance? Do you think?
Speaker 3:They definitely can, glenn, and I see that with some of the organisations I work with, delivering training and workshops and webinars, and they do some great work in promoting it. And there's obvious ones, such as implementing generous and flexible paternity leave policies so fathers can actively participate in those early stages of their child's life without having to compromise their job security. But I'd say, for me, the biggest one, which I'm always shouting the loudest about, is creating that supportive culture. So all organisations and employers should be able to foster a workplace culture that values work-life balance and also recognises the importance of father's involvement in children's lives. Encouraging open conversations, like we've talked about, and about that work-family balance, normalising, paralleling to responsibilities and also celebrating fatherhood can all contribute to that supportive environment.
Speaker 2:And I think, as we mentioned it on previous podcasts as well, you know, if there is an issue, for goodness sake talk about it, don't suffer quietly. You know, and so it's so important to express how you feel.
Speaker 3:And that's why I think the work that I do is really important, because it's about that preventative mental health. So all organisations and employers should be implementing a clear wellbeing plan that includes training and education that specifically addresses common mental health issues. So it's not a case, then, of that individual has to muster up the courage to speak up and ask for help, but actually to come to one of my sessions, hear me talk, see the material that I'm presenting, get a bit of an understanding about it and then being able to recognise that oh, actually that's me there. He's describing me. I can go get some support now rather than bottom up all the time.
Speaker 3:And you know I've designed some fantastic courses here at VITA that really do make a difference in people's lives. So there's tangible benefits in providing some of my training courses. So I'd say, if any employers or organisations are listening and want some support in putting a training programme together, or even would like me to come out to your place of work and give a talk on any of the topics that we discuss, then get in contact via the website and then we can see the difference that we can make in promoting a happy and healthy workforce, I think on a positive side.
Speaker 2:You know new dads try and feel part of the family. Try and feel that your contribution is valuable. You know and enjoy the time because let me tell you, as a dad of two grown-up sons, I'm now a granddad and I'm enjoying my two-year-old grandson you know the time goes so fast. It's a cliche, but believe you me, that time, when you've got that little one, from when they're born up until about 15, 16, let me tell you that time goes so damn fast. It really does, you know, yeah it would do.
Speaker 3:And seeing it now, then would you feel that things have changed much from when you've become a father to how things are now and experiencing it as a grandfather.
Speaker 2:I would say there's not a huge difference really, joe, to be honest with you, from new fathers of today to when we were expecting our first son, matthew. I would say younger guys today and maybe more involved in the whole process. There's more planning. Younger parents seem to want to know the sex of the child before they're born, a long time before they're born. You know as soon as it's possible to tell the sex, so as they can prepare the bedroom. They can prepare, you know, the clothing that maybe it's going to wear. We didn't know that. We wanted the surprise element, so we didn't know our two boys were going to be boys until literally the moment they were born. So there's a lot more preparation. I think now People are a lot more ready for the child, but in a mental capacity I think, yeah, I was lucky.
Speaker 2:I was very involved in the two boys upbringing and you know we worked very closely together. I worked at weekends. I wasn't around much at weekends. The nature of my work was that I worked at weekends, so I sort of missed out that sort of weekend enjoyment with the family, but I was there during the course of the week for them. I'm a fairly positive sort of guy anyway, so it's tricky maybe to ask me that question, but I think overall we were pretty lucky looking back, and it is always down to individual experiences, isn't it?
Speaker 3:Sometimes I speak to fathers in their 20s and 30s and I think sometimes for them, and they are more involved and also want to be more involved, which is great to see and hear. But then sometimes they base their views on fatherhood of their experience of fathers, which I think we all do anyway, don't we? We learn from previous generations and you can see that their previous generations, for some men, some fathers now, is quite different to how it is for them. So that role of a father before would have been maybe more so defined in those kind of gender norms like we talked about previously, of the mother being at home, in the caregiver, the dad being up to work and coming home and reading his paper and dinner in bed and not having too much in hands on Exactly.
Speaker 2:It's funny how it's changed through the generations, though, isn't it? I remember my grandad. He had very little to do with his children. Well, I say he did not have a lot to do with them. Of course he did, but I mean he wasn't very tactile. He would never pick. And my dad, to a certain degree I love my dad dearly, he's still with us but he was never very, very tactile. He would never really pick us up and give us a cuddle. As a child, he loved us and we did things with us all the time. You know, we had a great upbringing, we had a great childhood.
Speaker 2:He was brought up on a farm in the West country, and we had the best childhood ever, I think, but he was never very tactile. Mum was the more tactile of the two. She was always very cuddly and kissy and what have you. But it's interesting how it's changing through the generations. I look at the way I'm with my son. He was very cuddly, you know, always sort of told them off when it was necessary. Now my son looking at his son, it's getting very different. He's a lot more tactile, and it's weird, I think, how it's changed through the generations really.
Speaker 3:Well, the different people as well, aren't they? So you and your partner created your son, but then, in that time, he's created his own life from yeah, absolutely, and his own personality. So he'll take contributions from his experience and he's upbringing, but in the end, he'll create his own.
Speaker 2:I think, as a young father today, get involved in the upbringing of the little one, don't feel excluded, because I think that is when the mental health issues maybe sort of kick off, don't they?
Speaker 3:And I know. That's why, in my situation, I'm very fortunate. So I've been my dream job. I get to train people. I travel over the country, but when I'm not training I'm at home and I'm working from home. I get to be there. I don't have that long commute, I'm not out from 7am till 7pm, and just those smaller moments that I get to be present for makes the world a difference. So I do feel for other fathers out there as well who don't have that opportunity or, even worse, for the fathers who want to be involved but don't have an opportunity to do either.
Speaker 2:Fascinating area of conversation. We could waffle all day. And if, given the chance we would do, if anybody could get a takeaway from today's podcast on mental health as a father, what would that be? What would you offer? What would you suggest?
Speaker 3:Yeah well, they've taken the first step already, haven't they? They're stuck with this and listen to it to the end of it. So hopefully you can see how valuable it is to actually talk, to share what's going on for you and, if that's the case of you're struggling, reach out and ask for support. But perhaps not. Maybe you're in a good place Then be able to talk openly about mental health. Anyway, we'll recognise that someone else might be struggling. If you're a father, or even if you're not, it doesn't matter. We all have mental health, which you'll be looking after. Mental health each and every one of us, all the time, not just for men's health week, every single week, every single day of the year.
Speaker 2:Joseph, lovely to talk to you, joseph Conway, who's a mental health trainer at Vita Health Group. If you'd like to find out more about how Joseph and his colleagues can help you, of course, head over to the Vita Health website. Detail is coming up in just a moment, the website address. But, joseph, until our next podcast, take care, won't you? Good talk to you.
Speaker 3:Thank you All the best, glenn, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to this Making People Better podcast, part of the well-being series from Vita Health Group. Improving your lives, physically and mentally, drives everything we do, and getting you back to doing what you love is our priority. Vita Health Group Making People Better wwwVitaHealthGroupcouk.