An informative discussion exploring the stigmas and challenges facing men when talking about mental health with Dr Omar Kowlessar, clinical lead with Vita Health Group and James Aukett, a representative of Andy's Man club, a suicide prevention charity offering peer to peer support groups.
Lastly, we explore the empowering role of support networks like Andy's Man Club in fostering personal growth and recovery. Sharing my own experiences as a facilitator, I reveal the life-changing potential of reaching out. With immediate support networks like the Samaritans and self-referral services including Vita Health Group, we underscore the importance of treating mental health with the same urgency as physical health. For anyone on the precipice of seeking help, this episode is a testament to the strength found in community and professional guidance. Join us as we affirm the vital importance of communication and connection in the journey toward mental wellbeing.
An informative discussion exploring the stigmas and challenges facing men when talking about mental health with Dr Omar Kowlessar, clinical lead with Vita Health Group and James Aukett, a representative of Andy's Man club, a suicide prevention charity offering peer to peer support groups.
Lastly, we explore the empowering role of support networks like Andy's Man Club in fostering personal growth and recovery. Sharing my own experiences as a facilitator, I reveal the life-changing potential of reaching out. With immediate support networks like the Samaritans and self-referral services including Vita Health Group, we underscore the importance of treating mental health with the same urgency as physical health. For anyone on the precipice of seeking help, this episode is a testament to the strength found in community and professional guidance. Join us as we affirm the vital importance of communication and connection in the journey toward mental wellbeing.
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Speaker 2:Yes, and thanks for joining us. Time for another of the Vita Health Group podcasts, and thanks so much for lending us your ears. I'm Glenn Thompson, and the aim of this series is, of course, to raise awareness of what Vita Health Group has to offer, and to do that, I'm joined on each episode by various experts in their chosen field. Today's episode is all about men's mental health, and we all know that part of the stigma that still exists about mental health for men is that we have a greater difficulty when it comes to talking about our struggles than women do. To help us tackle today's subject, I'm joined by two guests Dr Omar Cowleser and also James Orkitt. Dr Omar Cowleser, first of all, you're no stranger to our podcast series. I think this is about the second or third one you've been on now. Hello, hi, I'm good, thank you, glenn, thanks.
Speaker 2:For anybody who doesn't know what you do, do tell us what is your background.
Speaker 3:I'm a clinical psychologist by background and I work for Vita Health Group in our mental health services.
Speaker 2:Okay, and also joining us on the podcast today is James Orkitt. James, you've suffered yourself with mental health issues, haven't you? First of all, hello. How do we find you?
Speaker 4:Hello, thank you for having me. I'm part of Andy's man Club. I informed Vita Health Group about the work that AMC do and they were very keen to promote us. So that explains where I am today, and I'm also here to just help spread the word and promote good men's mental health.
Speaker 2:Great, all right, james. We'll look forward to having a chat with you during the course of the podcast today, dr Omar Cowleser. First of all, then, I mean, why is it that men have this problem when it comes to talking about not only mental health issues, but we're pretty bad when it comes to visiting the doctor or GP or hospital full stop, aren't we? Why do you think that is?
Speaker 3:You're absolutely right, and I suppose that's a million dollar question, glenn, isn't it? It's not that men's mental health or mental health needs are dramatically different to that of women. It's just that men tend to struggle with seeking help when they need it the most and talking about their mental health, their emotions, their feelings, and I think a lot of it is down to, maybe, societal pressures that we're faced with from the minute we're born. I think men, boys, males are treated very different in society. There is still this expectation that to be a man is to, I suppose, maybe not show emotion, to be strong, to keep things to yourself and not necessarily talk about it. It's not talking about your emotional well-being, is not maybe necessarily good pub talk. But if you were to walk into the pub and you're perhaps with your friends and they said, oh, what happens to your arm? Maybe saying well, I hurt myself when I was doing cage fighting is very different to saying well, I was up all night with my newborn baby and I'm really struggling with work at the same time.
Speaker 2:Is it?
Speaker 3:like a macho thing, do you think? That's definitely part of it? How we expect men to be is part of it, and how we are amongst each other, amongst other men as well.
Speaker 2:Okay, let's bring James into the conversation here. James, would you agree with that? Because you, as we said at the beginning of the podcast, had issues and I believe you still do have certain issues with their mental health. But how long did you suffer before you actually sought some sort of help?
Speaker 4:I had, like, numerous spells off with my mental health, but it was 2014 when I actually did something about it for the first time. I knew I had issues over the years, but that was when I finally snapped and I decided to take action and speak to a doctor about mental health issues that I was experiencing.
Speaker 2:Omar. I mean, james took the right move there, didn't he really? He actually did something about it.
Speaker 3:He did, but it sounds like, james, you were struggling for a while before you decided to take that step.
Speaker 4:That's correct. So when I actually did something about it, I was in my mid-30s.
Speaker 3:James's experience highlights the difference in help-seeking behaviour when you compare men and women. Women are more open, more accepting of help and seek help sooner than men.
Speaker 2:Why do you think Omar I mean mental health, men's mental health particularly has really come to the fore now, hasn't it? It's been something that we didn't really discuss about five or so years ago. It's really since Covid, I think, because we were all sort of locked down with Covid and mental health really came to the fore, didn't it? Why do you think that was I?
Speaker 3:think mental health has always been. It's something that we all have and it's always been present. It's just how socially acceptable it is for us to talk about mental health. I think that has changed over the years. I think the prevailing, I suppose attitude of talking about your physical health is widely accepted. But mental health has always been it's always, in my opinions, played a second fiddle to the physical health. It's always been the poor relation, if you like. I think we're getting more comfortable now talking about mental health because there's an appreciation that one does not exist without the other.
Speaker 2:Yeah, james, coming back to you, when did you first realise that something wasn't quite right? Were you feeling depressed, fed up with life in general? I mean, what were the first indications for you?
Speaker 4:Well, continuing on with Covid, as you and Omar have recently discussed, my dad passed away in February 2020, before the UK was seriously hit by Covid, and then a year down the line, may 2021,. That was the lowest I'd ever felt in my entire life. But it wasn't just my dad passing away. The pandemic did have a role in my mental health declining so low that it was. I'd also recently moved to a new flat and I also felt that I was taking on far too much work than I could handle, and it actually drove me to the brink of suicide, and I went to hospital A&E initially, but my situation descended to the point where there was no one else to turn to but my mum, who lives in Essex.
Speaker 2:So you've got the support of your mum, you've got the support of some hospitals and your GP, I'm guessing as well. And how soon was it? How quickly did you start to feel any sort of improvements in your condition?
Speaker 4:Well, I went to stay with my mum from the beginning of May in 2021. And it was a few days later that I was first seen by Essex NHS Mental Health Services, who were excellent in helping me to an extent that my condition, thankfully, improved gradually once again, and that was over the course of a couple of months. So I was really thankful to them and also the counselling that I received as well during those couple of months and, additionally, I cannot thank my mum enough for all the support she gave me during the time I was with her.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm sure, listening to this podcast James's mum, you've been a great support and a great backbone for him. That's fabulous, isn't it really? Omar, I know you're very keen to talk about men's mental health, especially in relation to the family system, things like early fatherhoods. Life changes, doesn't it? I mean, I remember when my first son was born, you know I was not happy, go lucky, but free and easy to do what I wanted jump in the car, go off to the pub, do what whatever. And you know, suddenly your family comes along. Life changes and it's a big. It is a big mental health gear shift, isn't it for a lot of young fathers now it is.
Speaker 3:It is a huge transition and I think I think, growing up, whether you're you're a man or a woman, you go through different life cycle stages and with each stage you experience different demands and challenges.
Speaker 3:And becoming a parent, becoming a first time father, is one of those, and I suppose the reason why it's important to talk about fatherhood and men's mental health is because what we don't appreciate all the time is that the father's mental health can impact on the family system. So it's doubly important to ensure that men are looked after in terms of their mental health and it's actually considered. When you think about maternity services, they're pretty much geared towards the needs of the mum and women there have been for years and years and years. I remember when I was a first time dad in the early days, I was attending all these classes with my wife and I felt like I was a supporting act. All the kind of conversations and interventions were geared towards her. I felt kind of sidelined and I think what we know is that if you support men during this very critical, challenging time, they're better placed to support mum and the baby as well.
Speaker 2:You do feel a little out on the limb, don't you really, as a young dad. What's my position, you know? Suddenly your life changes, and that does have quite a fairly heavy mental impact, doesn't it?
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and I think what helps is being able to talk about it, realising that you're not experiencing something that is abnormal. And when you realise that and you find that actually there are other men that experience exactly the same types of emotions and experiences that you are, it helps validate and normalise what you're going through and that's the key thing. And sometimes men can feel quite isolated because we don't get linked in, we don't get plugged into different support systems where we can talk quite openly and freely to other men. So hence, you know, I think James's experiences of Andy's man club has been tremendously supportive for him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, do you meet people like this, james, at Andy's man club, you know, among fathers that are maybe hitting a bit of a tough time? Does that happen?
Speaker 4:Yes, young fathers, basically any man over the age of 18 who may be going through some sort of difficulty in their life and myself and Annie's man club we're there every Monday evening from 7 to 9pm to make sure that we're there for them. We listen to what they have to say. Where we can, we'll offer support.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And I've got to ask you, James, are you a dad at all or not?
Speaker 4:yet no, no, I've yet to experience the joys of fatherhood myself, although my sister, a few months ago, recently gave birth to her first son, a young boy called Charlie. He was an absolutely beautiful kid.
Speaker 2:Wonderful. So lots of babies sitting for you in the future, I'm sure. Maybe, Alright, omar, coming back to you then, the needs of we've touched on it already, but the needs of women versus men when it comes to mental health. I mean, it's quite different, isn't it?
Speaker 3:Well, you'd think so. You'd think so. Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, right so? But the reality is, Glenn, that the needs of men aren't too far aren't dissimilar to that of women. I think where the differences lies how men cope when they're struggling and their help seeking behavior. But that's not to say that men don't struggle with work related stress Doesn't mean they don't struggle with anxiety. They don't feel low at times, they don't feel inadequate, they don't have low self-esteem, All these issues. They're not gender bound, if you like. Women experience these. So do men, and I think that's important to acknowledge. Men aren't impervious to these types of experiences. They're not stronger mentally than women, for instance, so therefore they don't experience them. But where the differences lie is how we cope and how we seek help, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And talking of seeking help, I mean we highlighted here and his man club, james, that you are part of. We need to point out that that's just one of many, many, many support networks out there, and Vita Health Group aren't linked in any way to Andy's man club, but we wanted to talk about that today because you're part of that organization and that support is vital, isn't it? And let's come back to this subject of talking about how you feel, james. That is so, so vital, isn't it?
Speaker 4:Absolutely. We now have over 100 Andy's man club venues across England, scotland and Wales with the additional opportunity for men to meet online if there isn't a group available nearby to them. All groups meet every Monday evening, with the exception of bank holidays, from 7-9pm, where men can talk about how their week has gone and share anything they may wish to offload. The kettle will always be on and men can have a discussion over a brew and biscuit, should they choose to do so. The groups are led by volunteer facilitators, such as myself. We are just ordinary men who have experienced similar issues in our lives to the ones who come through our doors to talk about whatever storms they may be currently facing.
Speaker 2:Keen to point out, obviously, that other support groups offer similar help and support, networking as well, I think it's incredible that there's so much more support out there now.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 3:Accessible to men. But, James, I just wanted to ask you when you were seeking your support in your experience, what aspects or what support did you find most valuable?
Speaker 4:It was the majority of home visits from Essex. I was in Essex at the time so basically where I lived with my mum it was fairly remote, so Essex NHS came and did like home visits. So the majority of those were really helpful and as a result of these home visits, once those ended, I received some counselling sessions a few weeks later and the counselling sessions I received were really good.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, thanks for that, james Omar. Can we make to you a game? Huge numbers we see of youngsters, young men, you know, in their teens, even school age, teenage boys into their 20s. A lot of mental health issues there now and suicide numbers are quite high, worryingly high, aren't they? Why have we come to this now, do you think?
Speaker 3:We've shed much more light on this issue over the years, and I think there are critical periods growing up, such as teenagehood and early early adulthood, which many not just men, but women as well males particularly find stressful, and we know it's a critical period, so there's various risk factors involved as well when it comes to suicide. So we know more about it now and it's much more in the media and we're able to talk about it as well. So I think it's underlined, if you like, and you mentioned COVID earlier on in the podcast, and I think it's safe to say we all struggled during COVID. It was a way of life that we hadn't ever experienced before and hopefully we never will.
Speaker 2:In the beginning it was a bit of a novelty, wasn't it? Because we were all locked away. We thought, yeah, this is quite cozy, but you know, a couple of months, in three, four months, in that's when the issue started you thought, oh god is there any end to this.
Speaker 4:Can I get out?
Speaker 2:of my property. I want to see something different, other than the four walls that surround me.
Speaker 3:Well, that's it. Eventually it started to just erode everyone's mental well-being because the way we were living was totally changed. We are seeing the fallout from that. I think the younger generation, our children of school age. We're going to be seeing more of the consequences of that in years to come.
Speaker 2:And have mental health issues, particularly among men. Has it always been there? Because if I cast my mind back to when I was at school and in my 20s and 30s, it didn't seem to be so much of an issue. I'm sure it was, but it was hidden away. More has it always been there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, if you can acknowledge, you've always had health, so you've always had mental health, and I think what has changed is not necessarily its prevalence, but its acceptance and our ability to talk about it. So it's always been present. Speak to some people of a certain generation and they might say well, oh, this depression never used to exist. When I was young, people didn't get depressed. Everyone's depressed. Nowadays you get these very unhelpful attitudes, but the reality is conditions like depression, like stress, like anxiety, have always been there. What's changed is society's perception and acceptance of them and therefore our ability to talk about it and explore it. But people suffered in silence.
Speaker 2:I would say James, I'm guessing you'd agree with that.
Speaker 4:Absolutely, Andy's man Club. We've actually identified that suicide is the biggest killer of men under 50 years of age, which equates to one man every two hours. And Andy's man Club actually takes its name from a young man named Andrew Roberts, who sadly died by suicide in April 2016 at the age of just 23.
Speaker 2:Wow, very young indeed, isn't it Very young, and let's come back and finish the podcast today on a positive note, then, and the positive outcomes for yourself, james. As we've established earlier, you've suffered mental health issues. What positive outcomes have you had since going to something like Andy's man Club, the support network you use and a part of now?
Speaker 4:It's really uplifted me and it's opened up new pathways. Where I am, I'm one of the facilitators, so I actually lead the sessions on some occasions and I've also delivered presentations on AMC to various organisations in London and more recently we did some promotional work at Saracen's Rugby Ground, so really got to spread the word out there, which was really good to do. As I say, it's opened up so many opportunities and they just keep coming. I feel really proud to be a part of Andy's man Club and helping to spread the word.
Speaker 2:That's great. I mean, you've been through this. You know what it's like for anybody listening to the podcast today James having problems. You know they're having mental health issues. They're not sure which way to turn. What would you say to them?
Speaker 4:Obviously, there is the Samaritans, which is 116123, and they're always available 24-7. And if they'd like to know more about Andy's man Club, feel free to visit the website andysmanklubcouk. Andy's man Club. All one word. There are lots of other mental health support groups out there, so there's plenty of options available.
Speaker 2:Omar, would you say the first port of call would be maybe to talk to your doctor your GP.
Speaker 3:Oftentimes it is, but it doesn't have to be. So that is definitely one route If you're looking to, I suppose, explore your options and start the support process. Speak to your GP. However, you can go online and you can search. For example, if you wanted to look for your local mental health service, you can self refer to. So you don't even have to speak to your GP, you can go online. If you were to type in, perhaps Vita Health Group, our mental health support, you'll come across the relevant website and you can refer yourself by completing an online referral form.
Speaker 2:You work in this field, Omar, a lot full time, don't you? I mean, what are the common problems that you see with mental health to do with men? I mean, what is a common thread that comes through to you?
Speaker 3:One of the most common ones is low mood Men struggling with managing their mood that might be fluctuating according to on a day to day basis, depending on what stresses they've got going on. Maybe it's work related stress, family related stress, financial worries, housing issues, employment support. So all these factors, all these social factors, affect our mood, affect our internal world. So we see a lot of low mood. We still have worry. We see a lot of worry about the future as well, in other words, anxiety.
Speaker 2:I'm guessing as well, with the cost of living crisis, the fact that you know a lot of people finding it tough at the moment financially, that adds to it, doesn't it?
Speaker 3:It does, it does. I think everyone's feeling the pinch and people that were struggling before are struggling even more now, and I think life has changed, you know, over the years. You know, glenn, you were talking about how, when you were younger, you didn't, perhaps weren't as aware of men's mental health. It just wasn't talked about. And I think, like I was mentioning before, it did exist. It just wasn't talked about.
Speaker 3:I think also what another thing we need to consider is that life has changed quite considerably. For example, if we look at the stresses that young people teenagers are exposed to nowadays, you've got issues around cyberbullying, for instance. When I was younger, that just didn't exist. So life has changed and with that there's more challenges and there's more stresses that our young people are exposed to as well.
Speaker 2:That we need to consider your parents used to say well, pull yourself together, Don't be so stupid. But I mean, that's not the thing to say, is it? If you've got an issue and you go to your parents and that's what they say to you, that's not what you want to hear, is it?
Speaker 3:No, it's not, and actually you're not going to go back to them, are you so yeah?
Speaker 2:Exactly All right. And once again, the importance, omar, of talking about it and seeking help immediately, that you feel that something isn't quite right.
Speaker 3:I think so. Yes, exactly, it's bearing in mind that you're looking after yourself to continue looking after others as well. If you're a dad, if you're in a family, or even if you're not. Actually your well being, if you were struggling with a physical illness, if you had an infection, if you had a sprain or a broken bone, you would seek support. You would seek support. You would get that sorted. Your mental health is no different. If we start to think about health in this way and if we start to give mental health, I suppose, the parity to our physical health, we will start to look after it in a different way. So, yes, I think talking, seeking support, is key here, and there's many ways to do it as well.
Speaker 2:That's the one thing that's really shone through on this podcast is do talk about the way you are and the way you're feeling, so important. All right, well, gentlemen, a fascinating conversation. Thank you so much, dr Omar Cowles. If anybody wants more detail as to how Vita Health Group might be able to help them with mental health issues, particularly as that's what today's podcast has been all about, how do they go?
Speaker 3:about that. The best way to get support is to go onto Google type in mental health support or Vita Health Group, and you will find the relevant service for your local area. Go onto the website and then you can either call the number or fill out an online referral form. It's up to you.
Speaker 2:Wonderful, and also James. James Orkitt's been with us today as well. James, thank you so much for your time. You've been really inspirational on our podcast today and just want to point out again from an organisational point of view, we must point out that Vita are not linked with Andy's man Club. They're just one of the many support networks available, but the network, of course, that our guest, james Orkitt has used in the past and continues to do so. James, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today, and also Dr Omar Cowles, of course, talking today about men's mental health.
Speaker 1:Gentlemen, thank you so much, thank you very much Thank you for listening to this Making People Better podcast, part of the Well-Being series from Vita Health Group. Improving your lives, physically and mentally, drives everything we do, and getting you back to doing what you love is our priority. Vita Health Group Making People Better.