Breaking Free from a Pathological Partner with Dr. Nae

I’m joined by Dr. Nae, trauma bond expert, author of Run Like Hell, and former wife of Jordan Belfort—better known as the Wolf of Wall Street. Dr. Nae shares her story of surviving a deeply toxic and pathological relationship, what it took to finally leave, and how she transformed her experience into a mission to help others heal from narcissistic abuse and coercive control.

We talk about:

• The difference between flawed partners and pathological ones
• What it actually means to be trauma bonded
• The role of cognitive dissonance, coercive control, and the loss of self
• The danger of staying—and the danger of leaving
• How to protect yourself when planning to leave
• What healing really requires (hint: it’s not just time)

Whether you’re in the fog or on the other side trying to make sense of what happened, this conversation offers validation, language, and a path forward.

You can find Dr. Nae at drnae.com, and be sure to check out her book Run Like Hell, her trauma bond recovery community, and her daily insights on Instagram @therealdrnadine.

✨ If you need support, I offer 1:1 coaching, one-off sessions, and resources at emotionalabusecoach.com. You’ll find all relevant links in the show notes.

Transcript

 Welcome to the You Are Not Crazy Podcast hosted by Jessica Knight, a certified life coach who specializes. And healing from narcissistic and emotional abuse. This podcast is intended to help you identify manipulative and abusive behavior, set boundaries with yourself and others, and heal the relationship with yourself so you can learn to love in a healthy way.

You can connect with Jessica and find additional resources, content, and coaching@emotionalabusecoach.com.

Hello, and thank you for being here. Before I dive into today's episode, I wanna share how you can find me. My website is emotional abuse coach com. You can also find me at high conflict divorce coaching com. You can follow me on Instagram at Emotional Abuse Coach, and I do one-on-one coaching. I do one off coaching, meaning if you don't want a full coaching commitment, I'm still happy to work with you on a one-off basis.

And my courses, my resources, my substack, where I take a monthly topic and write about it pretty much the whole month. This month it's about the ins of gaslighting and I've just really been dissecting gaslighting what it looks, feels, and presents like. On today's episode, I have a very special guest, Dr.

Nay. Dr. Nay is a trauma bond expert. She is an expert in narcissistic abuse, and that's because she lived it. Dr. Na is actually the wife or the former wife of Jordan Belfort, the Wolf of Wall Street, and when she got into that relationship, she had no idea what she was getting herself into, and it ends up being a very big nightmare as you can imagine.

In this episode, we talked through some of her story, what that looked like, what that felt like, and what she began to see and how she began to get outta it, and then all of the healing that took place following. She now helps people leave emotional abuse, narcissistic abuse, and break trauma bonds, and now she works to help others heal from pathological relationships and.

Relationships, what they look like, what they feel like, how do you know if you're with a pathological partner and everything that goes into that. I really enjoyed this conversation, Dr. Nay. If you go on her website, which is dr na.com, the colors on her website reflect the colors in her office, which is very beautiful, you know, um, and she's very, she has such a warm presence.

I do think you're really going to like this. Episode, I think you're gonna get a lot out of it, and I just ordered her book, so I actually hope to have her back in the future. If you need support, you can always reach out to me, like I said at emotional abuse coach com, and I have put all of her links and resources in the show notes so that you can learn more about her there.

Hi Dr. Nay. Thank you so much for being with me today. Oh, thank you so much for having me. Yes, I'm Dr. Nay and I'm a counselor, a therapist, and I wrote the book Run Like Hell because every single day I help women recognize, escape, and break free from trauma bonds. What got you into that work? So what got me into the work is.

Many, many moons ago, I, I got married to the infamous Wolf of Wall Street, and as soon as I met him, my life with him was so big and so over the top that I put myself right into therapy. And so if anybody's seen the movie, they could see that we were in the quintessential trauma bond. I didn't know it back then, but, and then I did end up leaving him.

With my two children, and I moved to Los Angeles and I was in the garment business, but I was meditating a lot. And during one of my meditations, it just came back to me to go back to school to become a therapist because I knew that therapy had saved me. So I got my master's in counseling, got my PhD, and hence here I'm, yeah, so.

I'm gonna be honest with you, I haven't seen the movie. I'm not a big movie person, but I, it's like one of those that like every time it comes up.

The personality, and I think it's like, it's like that's like what we picture as being like the charming, overt narcissist that like we don't see as a narcissist because again, it's like big, it's over the top, the love bombing, but that it definitely has those characteristics. It's more of like when we think of a narcissist, what we think of, not the like covert stuff.

But I'm curious like when you got with him. It sounds like you got yourself into therapy quickly, but you, it sounds like you realized there's something going on, but also this is also fun and great and he's like, you know, loving. Yes. Yes. That's exactly, that's a great way to say it. It's that, as you mentioned, you know.

With these narcissistic pathological people, they're charming, they're magnanimous, they're um, you know, they love bomb you, and they just say, you're the, you are my soulmate. You're the love of my life. And so, you know, we really, at what I thought believed, fell madly in love. But something inside of me knew that this was too much.

And also, I have a saying that in a trauma bond. They start with a Romeo mask and end up with a dirty John. And quickly into our courtship, the Dirty John masks started to come online. Mm-hmm. And I was like, oh, there's, there's something not right here. And I put myself into therapy 'cause I started to see the rage and the coercive control.

Yeah. What was it like for you to. Watch yourself be portrayed in a movie and like to see the trauma bond. That must have been like quite fascinating. Yeah. You know, I had many, many different emotions because first my ex wrote a book, the Wolf of Wall Street, and then it became a movie. Mm-hmm. So I had some time to process my feelings and I'm, and boy did I process them because I had a lot of feelings about it.

But then I just said, you know what, Nadine, this is bigger than you and you just have to surrender into this, and, and that's what I did. And so I got to do a private screening at Paramount with my current husband. I also got to meet Margo Ravi, so she could get my Brooklyn accent. That was like the beginning and the end, the extent of my, um, involvement in the movie.

But it was challenging because when you go through something so traumatizing as a trauma bond, it takes so much to get over it that finally you're like, oh, I'm over it. And then you're like, no, I'm not. It's back. Mm-hmm. It's those triggers. Right. I remember like. Yeah, like it's, I, and I've told this story before, but it was like the first time that an ex reached back out, like, and he was blocked on all these things.

So it was like this random email from his work email. I remember the feeling, 'cause it took so long to break the trauma bond that I got this email maybe three, four months after I felt like I was in the quote unquote Clear. Yeah. You know, living life again, you know, like Right. Not crying. And, and I remember feeling all the feelings at once and that's how I have described it to people of like that, like, it was like I had fight, flight, freeze, like literally all in one moment.

Yes. To do. Yes. Yes. I said that to somebody the other day. I did a, um, a talk with this really wonderful, uh, Dr. Dr. Peter. So. He wrote this great book on narcissism and he asked me about that and I said, yeah, I think I had fight, flight, fix and FA in one day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fight, fight. No. Had fight flight, fa and freeze in one day.

Exactly. No, exactly that. Exactly it. Yeah. I totally resonate with that. I get it. And so I, I wanna kind of dive in a little bit more, I think with you specifically around the like, path, like around pathology and pathological partners. I think, you know, we hear a lot of these words be. Thrown around. And like I said, I said to a client like, I think it was yesterday, I said, you know, they're thrown around because people are aware and they're seeing it everywhere.

They're not just thrown around because like, people want Instagram followers at times. Like, I think pe like there are actually a lot of these behaviors that we're seeing and that we're noticing and naming and like being able to move away from it before it destroys our life or you know, or our finances or our children.

And so. Um, in your perspective, or at least in your, like, I guess your, um, your definition is really what I'm asking. Like what makes a partner pathological? What would be a pathological partner? Yeah, so, okay. So there's a few ways I do this. So I don't just use the term narcissist and what I say is that a pathological partner or lover.

I call 'em pathological lover will use harm, exploit and betray you to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status. Mm-hmm. And pathological means mentally unwell. So I believe that anybody that would do that is mentally unwell and they're very complicated because usually they have a cluster B personality disorder such as narcissism, antisocial personality, or borderline.

Then they have dark tetra traits, meaning they have narcissism, psychopathy, right? Which means they're very callous, they're very exploitative. Um, they have short term mating strategies. They're machiavellian, which means that they're very strategic and then some can be even sadistic. So that's like, let's just say that's the structure of their personality.

And they all don't have all of those pieces, but they can have some of those pieces. But then they usually have substance abuse. They usually have a compulsive process disorder, such as sex or gambling. And they can have a mood disorder such as bipolar disorder or depression or anxiety, and they can be highly impulsive.

So when I name all those things, you really see how complex this person can be. Yeah. Yeah. That's why they always say like, look at the traits, not the diagnosis. 'cause then you'll have, then you will see, um, you know, you see the, you see what's happening and you're naming it, rather than saying like, oh, it must be this, it must be this.

It's like, no. All of these traits lead to abusive behavior. That's right. That's right. They all lead to abusive behavior and. They're very tricky because, I mean, I just, how many things did I name? And if you haven't gone to school for psychology, right? And you're in front of a conman who's just trying to con you and tell you that you're the love of his life, but you don't understand, there's this whole litany, you know, litany of, of issues behind the mask.

Mm-hmm. How can you possibly know? And then slowly you do start to see it because you start to see a pattern of malevolent. Harmful behaviors towards you. Yeah. A a lot of people, and I mean, I've been there, I'm sure you, you have too with your story, they, that's so hard to distinguish between a partner that just has flaws and a partner that is like truly toxic, truly pathological, truly abusive.

Right? And like I remember, I mean, one partner I was convinced I was a narcissist, but then, I mean, I still am, but uh, but then the other one I was like. This guy has so much trauma. He is definitely has many BPD traits. Um, yeah, like severe, like, uh, all encompassing. Like, I need to have time with you at all times and you need to respond in this way.

But then there was also a lot of narcissism too, and like it was, and it was like so hard to separate between there's a flaw, like there are things that he needs to work on versus this is literally who he is, right. How do you help people kind of decipher some of that? Well, the thing is that, listen, we all have flaws.

I mean, nobody is perfect, but somebody with a cluster B personality disorder, you will see a pattern of dramatic and erratic behavior in in their areas of life, such as work and love. But their life will be very dramatic, chaotic, and erratic. And it's not just like a one-off where we all make mistakes.

You will see pattern of behavior, you will see patterns of pathological isle lying. You will see patterns of manipulation, you and deceit. Mm-hmm. So it, it won't just be one thing. It'll be many, many different behaviors, but you'll see a pattern of behavior. Right. Yeah. And what are some of the things that you feel like are common when you're dealing with somebody who is, yeah, actually I don't even wanna like put like a label on it because you named so many various parts, right.

What are some of the key traits of a pathological person? Like maybe that's, maybe like it's, yeah, so, so in my book I have, um, a, I have something, and I have it on my website too. I have something called a pathological lover checklist. So I'll just read it. A few things is deceitful you. Catch him in lies is dis disrespectful towards you.

Belittle you, and insult you. Is dominating. Wants to control your behavior and restricts whom you connect with, blames you for everything is possessive and unnecessarily jealous. Lax remorse, guilt, or compassion. Is manipulative and gaslights you has double standards. So the that the list goes on and on.

But I would say those are the main things because this partner at the root of a trauma bond is a partner that wants to have power and control over you. Yeah. That's what separates it from a regular relationship. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, it's like recognizing the signs, it like boils it all down to like the signs of course of control.

Yeah. And see those signs and, and align with those feelings too. That's right. That's right. And, and here's the thing. You know, if here I believe that love has two qualities, quality of connection, respect, warmth, trust. But there's also a second piece to love and that's. Does somebody give you the space to be who they, who you really are?

Mm-hmm. And the trauma bond, when you're dealing with coercive control, they don't, and you'll feel that stress. Yeah. You'll feel the need to have to lose yourself to keep, to keep the relationship. Right. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. That, that's such a good point. Uh, I'm like, I'm like writing that down because.

I mean, I think, I think well, so like, as like, you know, I'm not, um, a licensed therapist, but I am like a, you know, a certified coach in all these areas. And, um, but one of the things that has always stuck out to me is like when I start noticing a client losing themselves, those are the things that's where like, I'm like, okay, I wanna, I wanna help them keep that, keep themselves and not keep throwing it away for this person.

I mean, that's certainly what I, that's right. That's. That's right because what you'll see is that, um, loss of self is the number. So when you, when you experience a trauma bond, you have three sets of symptoms. You have loss of self, cognitive dissonance, and C-P-T-S-D symptoms, right? And you, you, you have to lose.

Because this pathological partner, all they wanna do is they wanna stop you from having a will. Yeah. Right, right. And there's the, and the purpose is so that they get the, is it the purpose then? So they have the power and control and therefore they can always have their needs met. Exactly. You said it right there because what's going on underneath the hood for them.

That's it. Yeah, but like under, in their, they feel entitled. Yeah. So they feel entitled to get their needs met. You shouldn't get your needs met. They have no moral compass. Right. So they have no moral compass to return to when they're making decisions and they feel superior. Right. What about their shame?

Like when you mention said all of like these, like other personality traits, like there's, I think it's so hard for people that are like, all right, this person seems to have like, you know, depression then this, that, and the other thing. You know? And obviously like I, I'm seeing like the abusive, harmful behaviors and it's like, okay, that's on them to manage that.

But I think it's really hard when you're in the relationship to separate that out and just, you know, because. Being depressed doesn't give you a right to abuse other people. Of course. Of course. And do they have shame? Yeah. But we all have shame. Right? Right, right. And so I, again, I was doing this thing with Dr.

Peter Sorno and he said a good term it, and he said they have fragile self-esteem. And if you notice, they only will be nice to you if you adore them. And kiss their ass. The second you skip any little criticism, which isn't even really a criticism, it could just be like anything that maybe they did wrong or they need to correct, they will go nuts.

Mm-hmm. Because they're so thin skinned. Yeah. Yeah. If somebody is in a relationship with somebody like this and they're like, they're like, okay, all of these behaviors are happening, but this person is claiming they're going to change or that they want to change or they want to see it. What do you typically, you know, how do you typically work with that?

Like if you were with dealing with that? You know, I think first of all, you have to look, every case is different, so you have to look at the level of pathology, right? Now a lot of people who are highly pathological will feign change. They will say, I'm gonna go to therapy. I'm gonna stop drinking. I'm gonna go talk to the pastor.

And there's two things with that. First of all, they have to want to change. They have to really want to change for themselves. And if they really do change, which only. 10% of them do 90% don't. You have to see that their words really match their actions and you have to give it a long period of time. Mm-hmm.

See, again, if you see that change in their patterns of behavior, do they stop lying? Do they stop cheating on you? Do they stop manipulating you? Do they stop belittling you and gaslighting you? Yeah, and I think it's also, if you want to give that time. If you want to give that time. Right. And you don't have to, I mean, listen, the title of my book is Run My Cow.

Yeah, right. So there it's, I know we're not on the screen, but that gives you just an idea of what I think, because first chances become second, chances become third, chances become fourth chances, and then 10 years have gone by. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like I. I did, I shared with you right before we started, I bought your book and I'm excited to read it and I'm sure I'll learn more of your story.

But it's um, from your, like, from your story, like, you know, you mentioned, um, marriage, you also mentioned kids and then leaving, and so it sounds like there was a few years there. How long did it take you to leave? Eight years. Took me eight years. Eight years to like, so was the relationship eight years or was it like eight years?

Yeah, the relationship was eight years. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Was what got you to finally leave? So I always called the, you know, their last straws. Yeah. And I have last straws. The first one was when my ex finally got physical with me and kicked me down the stairs. Okay. Yeah. You know, sometimes even though we can take all this emotional and verbal abuse and coercive control, which, um, I call death by a thousand cuts.

Sometimes that one physical action can crystallize it. And that's what did it for me. But then what happens is my ex did get sober. That was why he got physical with me. 'cause I demanded that he did. And when he did get sober one night, we went to dinner and I said to him, you know, that was really hard.

All the abuse, all the drug addiction. And he goes, it wasn't that hard. Yeah. And that lack of remorse. Yeah. I didn't know what the word callousness was and but now I know what it was inside. I was like, what? And then the third reason he got arrested, so I got very lucky that he got arrested 'cause I got a window to leave.

Where I knew he couldn't harm me anymore, and I knew I was safe because in a trauma bond, there's two things, and one of the things is a power imbalance. Mm-hmm. And he got arrested. The power imbalance shifted for me, and I knew I was safe. Yeah. Oh, what a good like, what a good point. Yeah. He was removed, right?

Yeah. He was like, he had to deal with the government, he had his own stuff to deal with, so he wasn't focused on having power and control over me. Right. Yeah. Did he try to, anyway? Well, he tried to stay with me, but I was like.

I mean, that's such a good, I mean, that's such a good point. It's also like, uh, the intermittent reinforcement is like the thing that like, I think is so hard because like people see that as like, oh, they're trying, but it's like if you really the actions, it's not Right. Right. That's right. That's the thing is because, you know, with the intermittent reinforcement, 70% of the time they're bad, they're cruel, they're controlling, they're unkind, but that 30%.

When they're kind, generous, nice, and helpful and loving, that's the hook, right? I say hope is the hook. Mm-hmm. And then that, it's that intimate reinforcement of cruelty and kindness, cruelty and kindness that keeps us tracked. Right? Right. So. Leaving these partners, especially depending on like, what, you know, pathology they have and you know, it, it can be so hard and obviously dangerous.

Yes. So mentally hard too, you know, and, but I wanna kind of lean into like the, the danger part for a moment. Yeah. Something I touch on a lot. I touch more on like the mental emotional, but I feel like it's something that you really get is like the, it could be dangerous to leave. And so when you work with clients that are, have like a really dangerous situation, how can they, how do they, like, what do you lean into in regard to them protecting?

Yeah. Well, first of all, you're right. Um, when a woman is gonna leave a trauma bond is the most dangerous part. Mm-hmm. Is the most dangerous time in the trauma bond. And what I, what I tell them all is, so your pathological level wore mask. Now it's your turn to wear a mask. Once you internally decide inside that you are leaving them, don't ever let them see you coming.

You have to plan behind the scenes and strategize. Whether it's getting a therapist, getting an attorney, getting all your financial documents in order, you know, um, getting a credit card in your name, getting a bank card in your name, going to Target and Walmart, getting tons of gift cards with money. Yeah.

Them, you have to get so prepared and then tell them. I mean, that's exactly, um, what I've talked about with clients. Sometimes they'll tell them after they're gone. So like they'll do all those things and then send the message and say like, I am gone. I'm not coming back. And then they have a new phone ready to go.

Right. Um, I think that something that. Clients will say is like, I, I'm not prepared to do all that right now. Or like I am, you know, the fear comes in, or even like the sure I'm depleted. How am I gonna get myself into action? Um, and it, and I think on some level it just takes like, kind of like, you know, some of that internal like coaching of like I have, but it sounds like that there's, you know, it's also just kind of like you said, like, you know, your books run like hell.

Maybe it's realizing that it's not gonna change. It's really not gonna, realizing it's not gonna change. And here's the thing is that we can't wait to feel motivated to do things. Yeah. Sometimes we just have to do things. And then, and, and it's hard if you're depressed and you're in a trauma bond and you're fearful.

I'm not saying it's easy, but one little thing a day and then in the end of 30 days you'll have done a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Like yeah. If it's like one, breaking it down to one thing. That's right. One little thing a day. Yeah. Yeah, I, and I, I love what you said about the gift card. Thank you for naming that.

Because when people say, what do I do with money? I tell, I say the same thing I said, I say, start like charging to little small, every time you go to the grocery store, $10 on a gift card, and then put them in a safe space. That's right. That's right. And if you're not working, go get a little job somewhere.

Yeah. To get some income because the less financially depends and you are the better home. Good. Sephora, pottery Barn, you know. Yeah. Something that makes you feel like you have the independence if you're not working. That's right. Are working probably to figure out like, how do I protect my money? You know, and what do I need to do to do that?

Um, correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had somebody ask me recently to like read a Outta Nowhere. She was like, can you read this? Like post no document and I just said. I can, but the best support I could give you is probably if I like taught, find out some of your background first and like some of that stuff, not just blankets say this is what to do because I'm, the safety aspect is always so core to my, um, my approach.

Safety first. Yeah. Otherwise it's just advice without, yeah. That's right. So, so true Jessica. So I, I feel like the healing part. Of all of this takes a lot of time. It also takes a lot of like, you know, untangling the trauma bond is so painful, but it's, it is very empowering once you get to the other side.

And what do you feel like are some of the biggest maybe mistakes people make in early healing stages that hold them back? Well, first of all, you have to really address your cognitive dissonance because cognitive dissonance is the glue of the trauma bond. And cognitive dissonance is the mental confusion that you feel due to being totally confused by the two masks and the intermittent reinforcement.

Mm-hmm. And so what I, and you have cognitive dissonance on three different levels. You have it about you, about him, and about the relationship. Is he good or is he bad? Am I crazy or is he crazy? Is the relationship good or bad? Yeah. You leave off in your longing for them. Even though they were abusive and the man, your brain has the desire to remember all the good times, the 30%.

Mm-hmm. And so what I say is that you have to realize that your, your partner was not Romeo and Dirty John. They were one pathological, manipulative partner. I have a whole thing of really how to dissolve cognitive dissonance. 'cause it's a very important part of sustaining, being able to stay away and it's really the hardest part.

Mm-hmm. And you know, don't go date right away. Give yourself some time to heal. If you don't have children, it's really best that you don't have contact. Um, you know, if you do have children, that's different. Try to use our Family wizard and, um, but really when you've been, when you've left a trauma bond, you've been, you've experienced relational trauma.

So trauma, right? When you leave, you have to also stabilize with self care. Eating. What are you drinking? How are you exercising? You know, you have to kind of make your life very small and very organized and very disciplined to get on this deep healing journey that you're about to embark on. And if you're going to court, you need to be really organized, inside and grounded to deal with that.

Yeah. Yeah. You can't do that if you say now till 4:00 AM No, and you mean you can't do that if you're in another relationship quickly. That probably has similar traits to the last one because you know That's right. You have the time to heal. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. In your story, you had a divorce, this guy.

Yeah, I did. Did you have to go through the whole family court? You know what? I really didn't, um, because I, because as I mentioned, he was um, dealing with a lot of stuff. Yeah. He was dealing with so much stuff. So I, you know, our divorce was very amicable 'cause I didn't fight him for money. It was all blood money.

I didn't want it, I just wanted my kids and. You know, and we, we, I don't know, it just like worked out. I, but again, it's because.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, and my, my, um, I'm from New York as well, and when my mom got divorced, she didn't even have to go in front of the judge. And I was just like, that's crazy. Like when, like out of all the things that we go through now, it's just crazy. But it like retraumatizes having to go through it and then in family court.

Oh, family court is so re-traumatizing. Yeah. Yeah. It's ridiculous. Ridiculous. The, the last question I had for, for you, um, is, was around like, just sort of like how, how people can begin to shift their perspective, right? If they're in this like, you know, feeling stuck low, you know, uh, like just that they can't do it or like they don't know, or if they're scared, how can they move themselves or begin to move themselves towards something that's more empowering of like, even just being able to realize there's a life on the other side of this.

Yeah. I. There, there are a few things. The first thing is you must get educated about it. Yeah. Um, that's why I wrote my book because I really wanted to educate, uh, women about it. And you have to realize that abuse is always the fault of the abuser. It's not, the abuse is not your fault, but it is your responsibility to take.

Responsibility for your healing. Right? Right. And we all have to do that as adults on the planet no matter what. So what I say is get educated, um, go to therapy or go to a coach like you. You need a support system. I just also started an online community, a trauma bond recovery community. Um, yeah. Is that, like, is that group coaching or online course?

Yeah, it's an online course and group coaching. Oh, amazing. Yeah. So it's a course from my book and then it's, but it's a whole community of women like cheering each other on and validating each other because it's very nice to be surrounded by people that really get it. Mm-hmm. And you have to say very encouraging things to yourself.

Yeah. Can't beat yourself up. You can't. You have to put your inner critic on, like you have to put him on unemployment and you have to say like, this is hard and I can do it. Two things can be true. Yeah. Yeah. That's such a good point. Like I think it's so hard to work on the inner critic, especially when you're just trying to like keep going, but it's like even the baby steps can help so much of like, I can do it or like, I choose to see this differently.

That used to be my mantra was when I, oh, I like that. Well, I felt like I couldn't do anything other than choose to see it differently, but I didn't even know what the different was.

You know, times don't. Understand that, how are we going to do this? We get stuck, but you don't have to know how. And actually, even if you think, you know how it probably won't even unfold like that. So you just have to get up every single day, take it one step at a time. Take baby steps, but resource yourself, resource yourself relating with therapy or group re self resource physically with self care, re self, um, self, mentally with education and therapy, right?

Mm-hmm. You have to resource yourself financially. Learn about your finances. You have to resource yourself to deal with the trauma, right? Yeah. I really enjoyed this conversation. Aw, thank you so much, Jessica. This was so lovely. Absolutely. And I would love to have you back after I read your book. I always, yes.

And so I'd love to just like, you know, dive into it, talk about it. Um, I have, let's do it. That would be amazing. Can you share with I would love that so much. Go ahead. What? Find. Oh yeah, everybody can find me on at Instagram at the real Dr. Na Dean. Please join me. I post every single day about trauma bonds, or go to my website, dr na n ae.com.

I have tons of free resources on there. Trauma bond assessment, pathological lover assessment doc triad assessment, or my trauma bond recovery community, which is tbr.doctor nae.com. And yeah, I mean, this is my life's work, so thank you for having me on. Oh, I loved having you on. Thank you so much, and I hope to talk to you again soon.

I can't wait. Take care. Bye-bye. Bye.