Why Abusers Believe Their Own Lies with Paul Colaianni

Why do emotionally abusive people double down on false narratives, deny reality, and convince themselves they’re the victim—even when they’re causing visible harm?

I'm joined by Paul Colaianni, host of The Overwhelmed Brain and Love and Abuse podcasts and creator of The Healed Being program, one of the few resources for people who have been emotionally abusive and genuinely want to change.

We unpack one of the most confusing dynamics in abusive relationships: the distorted thinking that abusers use to justify their behavior and the self-protective systems that keep them from taking accountability.

We cover:

• Why abusers truly believe their own version of reality
• The psychology of self-righteousness, control, and emotional arrogance
• How survivors internalize blame and begin to question their own kindness
• The painful tipping point between self-sacrifice and self-protection
• What real change actually looks like—and why it often comes after the survivor walks away

Resources mentioned:

• The Mean Workbook by Paul Colaianni: https://theoverwhelmedbrain.gumroad.com/l/jkSo
• Jessica’s Boundaries Deep Dive + 1:1 Validation Calls: emotionalabusecoach.com
• The Unhooked Private Podcast & Course on the Cycle of Abuse: https://jessicaknight.thinkific.com/courses/unhooked

Work with me:
 emotionalabusecoach.com
highconflictdivorcecoaching.com

Subscribe to my Substack:
 jessicaknightcoaching.substack.com

Transcript

Welcome to the You Are Not Crazy podcast hosted by Jessica Knight, a certified life coach who specializes in healing from narcissistic and emotional abuse. This podcast is intended to help you identify manipulative and abusive behavior, set boundaries with yourself and others, and heal the relationship with yourself so you can learn to love in a healthy way.

You can connect with Jessica and find additional resources, content, and coaching@emotionalabusecoach.com.

Hello and thank you for being here. Before we dive in, I wanna go through the fine print and share how we can work together.

The emotion. Relationships, relationships, control, trauma, bonds, high conflict co-parenting, high conflict divorce, and if you're at the beginning of the road and wondering what divorce would look like, they offer one-on-one coaching at every stage. If you're still in the relationship, if you're unsure, if it's abuse, if you know it's abuse, but you're having trouble understanding what that looks like or if it what to do with it, I can help you name what's happening, start setting boundaries that work for you and figure out what you need.

If you're thinking about leaving, we'll explore what that might look like in a grounded and personalized way. If you're navigating divorce or custody or co-parenting with a high conflict person, I can help you document, strategize and stay emotionally anchored. You're being discredited and retraumatized by the legal system.

If you've already left and you're stuck in the trauma bond, or if you've been discarded and struggling to feel like yourself again, I can help you rebuild self trusts and reconnect with your own nervous system in a way that actually feels doable. Everything I do is highly personalized. I don't walk you through a one size fits all program.

I listen, I reflect, and I guide you based on what you are facing right now. And some people work with me through a one time validation call, which is offered on my website where we zero in on one issue you're struggling with and start to untangle it together. Others work with me on a weekly or biweekly basis depending on what's going on in your specific situation.

And this is especially helpful when healing from emotional abuse and also in divorce. If you're curious about starting, I offer a $25 intro call, which if you listen to my older episodes, I call it a clarity call it, it used to be free and I talk about it at a later episode, but really a lot of people were, um, no showing to those calls, and that was taking away time from clients that I do work one-on-one with.

And so if we move forward, I just take that fee and apply it to your first session. That intro call is just for us to get on the same page. You can share what's going on for you, and I can share how I might be able to help. I only take a limited number of those calls per month because one-on-one coaching is the core of my work.

Out of all these offerings that I have, one-on-one coaching is the thing that I do the most and I do it. Six days a week, most of the time, five to six days a week. And so if my calendar looks full, and if there's not a time that you can get in, you can email me at Jessica at Jessica Knight coaching com.

And I always try and make space where I can. And I may also always have a few openings from one-on-one client reschedules. You can also explore self-paced courses and toolkits at Jessica Knight thinkific com, including Divorcing and Narcissist 1 0 1 and the Emotional Abuse Breakthrough Course. I have a documentation course and my new signature program, unhooked, which is a private podcast and course that walks you through the full cycle of abuse, helps you map it in your relationship and how to break it, and how to begin to see what it really is that you're going through.

If you want ongoing support in a more flexible way, you could always check out my substack at Jessica Knight at substack com. Each month I focus on a different theme from trauma bonding to divorce, to cluster B, to sexual coercion, to emotional abuse, to toxic breakups. Those are just some from this year.

Paid members get access to monthly deep dives, masterclasses, q and as strategy kits, and I'm working on some more group options. There is also a free option and a monthly option, so please head over to substack. The link is in my show notes. You also can just search Jessica night coaching and come up.

Everything that I create is meant to help my coaching, my writing, my courses. This podcast, it's built around the one truth that you're not crazy. You are conditioned to doubt your reality. I you change that and understand what you're going through. If you like this podcast, the best thing that you can do is subscribe and rate the episode five stars.

You can find me on my websites emotional abuse coach com and high conflict divorce coaching.com. All of the offerings that I just mentioned are also in the show notes below. Now let's get to the episode.

Today I'm joined by Paul Kani, the host of the Overwhelmed Brain Podcast and the Love and Abuse podcast. These podcasts have helped so many people make sense of emotional abuse, gaslighting, and the invisible dynamics that keep us stuck. Paul also runs The Healed Being Program, which we will talk about on this episode.

That's one of the only resources I recommend for individuals who have been. Emotionally abusive and truly want to change. This conversation dives into a question I hear from clients all the time, and one that I've wrestled with a lot. Why does the abuser truly believe their own distorted reality or version of events and how can somebody cause so much harm and still think that they're right?

We also talk about why do they double down, deny reality and make you feel like you're the problem when all you've done is try to hold things together. Paul and I talk through all this and the psychology behind it, trying to understand what's happening underneath the self-righteousness, the gaslighting, and the refusal to take accountability.

We'll also talk about the fear control. And deep inner stories that drive abusive behavior will touch on what happens when survivors begin to question themselves. And when they ask, am I being too harsh and am I the one who needs to change? There are a few resources that I mentioned in the episode, and so I'm gonna name them here and I'll also put them in the show notes.

My boundaries, deep dive helps you understand, define and hold boundaries, especially when the other person keeps crossing the line. And I also offer one-on-one validation calls if you're in the fog and need help sorting through what's real, what's manipulative, and what you actually need. This episode is for you if you've ever felt emotionally erased, confused, guilted, and I really hope it brings you clarity, some new language in the validation that you need.

Paul's mean workbook is a extremely valuable resource, and the link to that is in my show notes too. Hi Paul. Thank you for joining me again. As always, it's an honor. Thank you for having me. Can you share who you are and what you do? Oh, that's a deep question. I'll tell you. I know. Yeah. I've been hosting, uh, two podcasts for a while now, the Overwhelmed Brain since 2013, and that's about navigating through life's challenges and love and abuse, which is more in your territory here, emotionally abusive and controlling and manipulative relationships.

I've been doing that since 2019 and I run a couple programs. I offer things to help both abuse victims and the abusers themselves to help change them to create less or fewer victims. So that's what I've been doing and that's what I'm passionate about for many years now. Mm-hmm. We were just talking right before I pressed record about, you know, you were saying for The Healed Being Being Program.

You spent a lot of time in that program working with people that are like untangling their. Like, or I guess like understanding their mindsets and their way of thinking. Yes. Do you want me to comment on that? Yeah. Uh, you know, I know. And so like for the listener, so Paul likes to not know the topic, you know, sometimes before we, before we, this is where we're going.

So this actually, it actually relates, um, a bit. And, and so I guess, and I didn't put that together until like I looked down at my notes. So the topic is, I think that will probably be easier. And then, yeah, I would like you to comment a little bit about like, that, that work, because it's gonna, I think it's really important and you're one of the only people that I know that, that does that work.

And when there are people that are, that have partners that really do want to look at their thinking and work on themselves, I always tell them to start with the healed being program. And what I wanted to talk about today is something that like, I think has been coming up a lot in. My client sessions, but it also is coming up a lot like in my own thinking and rationalizing of things, even in like friendship dynamics or family dynamics.

But it's like, it's around why does the abuser truly believe their own version of events and their own version of reality, even when it's clearly false or harming someone. I am sure that in the program and when you're working with people that that comes up a lot is that they're very focused on their way of seeing.

Absolutely. I mean, and just to clarify, you said at the beginning, I don't like to know about the topic, that that's kind of like a little thing. Yeah, yeah. And I love that because I don't wanna be prepared with notes and I didn't want to, I don't wanna sound like, um, somebody who's memorized anything. Yeah.

I, I really, I also really appreciate that one time I had a topic and you were like that and you came with a topic and we went with that and I was like, I really love this because neither like. It was very organic too, so I always like, I, you know, when we talk, I keep it open for that reason. Yeah, that's, yeah, and I appreciate that.

And on any show that I watch or listen to, it's always nice if it's, or it's organic and it feels more natural and it's not like something that, uh, you just. Go and watch somebody on stage performing or something. So yes, the program called Healed Being it is to help emotionally abusive people heal and change, stop the behaviors, deal with their coping mechanisms, heal their emotional triggers.

And you asked the question, I mean, well, let me just back up. I've been doing that since like 2021 because I was hearing from a lot of victims of emotional abuse and control and manipulation and even victims of physical abuse and worse abuses about, you know, they, they still care about their partners, that typically romantic relationships, they still care about their partners and they just want them to change and want to help them.

And their partners are in this, what I would call a self-righteous state, a selfish, a selfish state. And all they can do is what you are asking, believe their own reality. And that's a, a very deep question. Like, why do they only believe their own reality? It probably requires like a lot of study. Mm-hmm.

But I can give you my perception and my own personal understanding of it. Mm-hmm. Which is I think there's very likely a deeper core, well, I know there is, there's a deeper core fear or fears and insecurities that require them to believe what they're doing is right. And that fear, that insecurity. I, I often call it a, a fear and desperation because insecurity can lead to desperation.

Fear can lead to desperation. And if you are acting desperately, you're more likely to do behaviors that keep you safe. And with emotionally abusive people who have. Walked through life, gaining their power, so to speak, by keeping control over the people in their lives, keeping that control to the sense that they can feel like they're in control of their own life.

That they, if they control someone else, it feels like they're in control of their own life. And as long as they can keep that control and keep that power over someone else, then they are protecting the deepest core of who they are and to a lesser extent, what they want and what they desire in their life.

And so I see, uh, those who walk, walk around and, and get into relationships and they're emotionally abusive or controlling or manipulative and even physically abusive, sexually abusive, financially abusive, all the abuse categories is to protect the deeper part of themselves in a way that hurts others.

So it's not just walking around with strong personal boundaries, because that's not how you're supposed to enforce your boundaries by hurting others. It's walking around keeping people at a distance enough to be able to control what happens to you in your life as the abusive person. So that's how I see it.

I, I think, and again, this might require more study and more thought, something that I will definitely consider going forward because that inner drive, that inner core that they're trying to protect, that insecurity, that fear came from, in most cases, childhood. Where they learned to fear, or they just became fearful because they didn't feel safe.

That caused them to develop coping mechanisms, which may have worked in childhood. But when they got into their first teenage and adult relationships, and they started doing these behaviors to push people away that are very directly related to their childhood coping mechanisms, it was to protect, I mean, that could be inner child work here.

Mm-hmm. Right? Was to protect the inner child, the fearful, the fearful person inside of them that is still seeing the world through these feared, fearful eyes and these insecurities. And as long as they see the world that way, they're going to continue to act in a way that only hurts people and tries to control them and manipulate them and create the world they want.

So that's where I think that the righteousness comes in. Like, I feel right doing this because it is the way to protect myself. Mm-hmm. And I, and I also know and believe that most abusers, uh, abusers, they feel I just had it in my, the tip of my tongue. They walk around feeling that you must do this for 'em.

You must comply, you must submit. And if you don't, it's hurting me. Mm-hmm. So they have this odd belief system that, uh, if you don't do this, it's a, it's an affront to me. It's an offense to me. It's a, an oppression to me. And it's interesting after a while, and I'll, I'll stop in a second here, but it's interesting.

After a while, hearing the emotionally abusive people, those who commit these acts and behaviors, say the same things that the victims of emotional abuse experience as well, like the emotional abuser might say, if they would only do this, then we'd be happy. Just like the victim would say, if they would only do this, we would be happy.

And so they're both protecting a part of them, and I'm not equating them at all. They're different layers and different things going on there, but that's how I see it, is that the emotionally becomes that. We, as a former emotional abuser myself, I used to walk around like that. Mm-hmm. I used to walk around thinking it's important that I do this, otherwise they're hurting me and I don't want them to hurt me, so I'm going to do this behavior.

And I didn't think it was wrong. I thought it was necessary and it was necessary because it's not right to walk around feeling hurt or scared or fearful. The problem is abusive. People push their unhealed trauma, unhealed pain, unhealed hurt their old emotional wounds onto another person instead of dealing with it themselves.

So that's where the behavior comes from as well, is that they are pushing what they haven't dealt with. Onto someone else, they're pushing that stuff onto someone else so that they don't have to deal with it. So there's an arrogance in there as well, an emotional arrogance in some ways, for lack of a better term.

Would the arrogance in this case be like, I, you know, I don't have to change? Yeah. That's one statement that many would definitely make. I don't have to change. Why would I have to change? There's nothing wrong with me. In fact, in almost every situation with a couple mm-hmm. That I've worked with, that I've talked to, that I've, or I've heard from the stance is the emotionally abusive person thinks or knows, quote, knows they're right and that the victim needs to change and the victim of that abuse says, I probably need to change.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. And so I, I see that I can di immediately differentiate. Somebody you were talking about earlier. Yeah. Before recording, I can immediately differentiate, well, you're being abusive because you want them to change and you're not taking any responsibility for yourself or your own behaviors.

You're not taking any responsibility for your role. You're not, uh, being humble or vulnerable. You're, you're just saying they are the problem. They need to fix themselves. I'm perfectly fine. And I see that attitude and I go, okay, I know where there's a problem here. We need to address that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, but I, and I think that cycle is what makes it so confusing.

And when I was listening to you just now, it kept coming up. I'm like, this is where survivors probably get very confused because when you said like the, if they did this, then they would be happy. And like the example that we were talking about before I recorded of somebody without much context really saying, you know, can you work with me and my husband and tell him he's abusive?

And I'm just like, well, no. You know, like, first of all, I, I don't know you, you know what I mean? Like I know nothing about this story. And even with my current clients, like I would say no, you know, because it's a boundary, right? I don't have to get into all of that. People, uh, sure people can put that together, but it's, um, but the so many people fall into that.

Yeah. And I had that call today. So like I do these one-off calls, validation calls, is what I call them. It's if somebody doesn't wanna commit to long-term coaching, we just talk once. So I don't know, you know, a lot of somebody's story, but I had one of those earlier today and we were talking through some, like, some of the dynamics that's, uh, uh, around.

What probably will lead to divorce at this point. And what, but she, she kept asking that like, I think it was about three times throughout the hour where she said, but am I being unkind? You know, and then I'm like, I don't wanna go into her details. But there's kids, there's schooling, there's jobs, there's emotional neglect from the other side around all those pieces of the puzzle.

And it's like, the expectation is that she needs to give more, give more, give more, give more. Even when she's exhausted. Even when she's depleted. And, but that, that's the narrative, right? Because he's saying, if you did more, or if you did this for me, this wouldn't happen. And she's, you know, she's booking a validation call to say, if I did more, would this change the dynamic?

Yeah. And like it's a complete turnaround again sometimes where they say, well, she's being abusive to me, or he, or whatever. That that person's being abusive to me. And that's another form of protecting, you know, the abuser protecting themselves. And when I say abuser, I, I don't know if I explain this, but, um, I, I usually say, I say it for brevity.

Mm-hmm. I don't like to call people an abuser. I don't like to call people a victim. I just say that just so we can get through the conversation. Yeah. Someone who does abusive behavior for the sake of brevity, I'm gonna call an abuser. So the abuser will turn around and say, well, they're being abusive to me.

And, um, then they'll, they'll take that as like, uh, they'll be defensive and, well, they're, I'm not being abusive. They're being abusive. And it's a, it's a typical turnaround so that they, again, they don't have to deal with. The hurt, they're causing the pain. They feel, even though they may not agree that they feel pain, the fears that they have, even though they may not think they have any fears, uh, all at the deeper level, if they can turn around and push it on, excuse me.

If they can turn it around and push it onto them, then they don't have to work in themselves. They don't have to change, and that is like their mo every single day of their life. Somebody else can, can change for me, so I don't have to. Mm-hmm. What do you typically see in the survivor or the person that is being emotionally abused?

That, like, in their language or in their behavior or the way that they frame something that almost shows you you're not the abuser abusive one because you like, I think for me, I can sense how much they're doing to change even their mindset, to change their behaviors, to look at things, to unpack things.

I'm curious if you see something similar, if you see something else. I mean, you said the magic word, the words that they use. Just like when you're talking to somebody who calls you, you probably hear the words that they're using. Yeah. Or maybe I could do something a little bit differently. Maybe I could do something better.

It's a very, how can I help attitude? I've seen that a lot. How can I help? How can I fix this situation? What can I do differently? When there's that outline of everything they're saying, like everything kind of equates to what they can do to change or help or show up as a better person. I mean, they're literally willing to do different things than they are.

They're literally willing to become a different person than they are. That's one thing I see over and over again is emotionally abusive people. They don't wanna change. They don't wanna help the other person by changing for them. They want to be accepted as who they are without question. And then the victim says, okay, well if you can't accept me, this is often not always.

If you can't accept me for who I am, then I will do my best to change for you. Mm-hmm. I see that attitude always. I mean, 99% of the time I see that I will do my best to change For you, the, the people who don't have that attitude, and maybe it's bigger than 1%, but the people who don't have that attitude, they're often the person who has gone past what I call the threshold.

Mm-hmm. Like they are done. That is it. I am no longer going to accept that kind of behavior in my life. I'm done, and that person talking about the abuser, that person needs to change or I'm leaving. Mm-hmm. Or I'm staying in the second bedroom for two weeks, or I'm going over to my sister's, they, they are drawing a line and so that's when I see the change, the shift from.

Being victimized to stepping into their power, saying, I'm not gonna let you take my power away anymore. I'm gonna step into this new place because I cannot take this anymore. I cannot take it from you. And I say that with a caveat that you gotta pick your battles wisely. You don't wanna pick a fight with somebody who could be dangerous or violent.

I always want like to say that because some people will write to me and say, you didn't say that it was dangerous. Of course it could be dangerous. You know your relationship, right? You know the person well enough to know if you say, I'm, I'm putting my foot down, this is it. I'm not gonna take it anymore.

Pretty much how they're going to respond. You might still be surprised, but for the most part, a lot of abusive people. They are in fear, they are insecure, and they don't want to be faced with that kind of, kind of accountability of somebody putting their foot down. And as long as the, the victim of their behavior never puts their foot down, they believe it's okay to continue doing that behavior.

Yeah. And what, and like you said, you know, it's like one of the hardest things to is to set a boundary, you know, for the safety reasons. But they, they typically, I, you call it a threshold, I call it the last straw, last straw moment. Um, because there's typically, I think a couple, you know, but then they probably reach the threshold, you know, of I'm, I'm done, you know, and something's gotta give in, in some way, but it takes a while to get, it takes a while to get there.

Well, the good news about that is that everybody is capable of it. Yeah. Everyone, everyone listening now, if you think you're stuck and you have no options and there's nothing you can do, and you have no money and no place to live, I get it. I empathize because I've been there, not in the abuse victim, but I do sympathize with everything else.

If you believe that, you can never get to that point where you, you can just put your foot down, even for yourself, put your foot down for yourself, saying that's it. No more bs. I'm not gonna take this anymore. Everyone has that last straw. Everyone has that. My threshold, because if somebody, I always like to use this, if somebody taps you on the head, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap.

And they keep tapping and they keep tapping and you say, stop, stop, stop. And please, please stop. And you're trying to be nice. Please, please stop. Depends on who it's, but let's just say they're tapping and tapping. You're eventually gonna lose it. You'll, mm-hmm. There. There's nobody in the world that I know that wouldn't finally grab that finger.

Snap it. Yeah. Like that example is like, even you talking about it made me wanna lose it, honestly. Like I'm just like, yeah. Yeah. That's why I say everyone has it in there and I believe that. When you're in an abusive relationship and you feel stuck and you feel like you have no options, that person is inside of you and they will come out when you've been pushed far enough.

Just let me add this real quick. Sometimes, uh, we develop higher and uh, we a lot, often we develop higher and higher tolerance and resistance to bad behavior. Uh, uh, you know, and it continues. So that tolerance and the resistance gets more and more and more. And then you are in a new normal. And we have to shake ourselves a little bit and say, this isn't the normal.

I want, this isn't how I want it to be forever and ever or for the rest of our lives together. And it does help to push that threshold or last straw moment a little faster. But if you know that that's in there and you realize, and this is a question I like to ask, and you realize by asking the question, will, if this never ever changes, will I be okay with it?

If you realize that, uh, no, I won't be okay with it. That threshold's gonna come a little bit faster for you, or at least a little bit easier, because you're not gonna want to continue taking that tapping on your forehead. Right. It's gonna happen. Yeah. That's interesting because like recently I've been getting the, with some clients, I've been getting the question of like, you know, and this is usually with people that I've worked with for a while, so I know more of their, like more of the story of story of stories.

Like, it's not, you know, a one-off, but it's, they'll say like, based on everything, you know, do you feel this person is going to change? And like, I think that question really comes in when it, when they're reaching the end of their t like they're, they're getting to the threshold point, you know, of like, I, I can't do this and like, I'm holding on for hope, but like it's getting less and less and less and less.

I dunno if we've talked about this before, but I talk about it a lot. Mm-hmm. When you answer a question like that, do you believe they're ever gonna change? You know, the answer. You do know the answer. And, um, when that answer comes, there's always the what if. Mm-hmm. That follows it. Mm-hmm. You know, I don't think they're ever gonna change, but what if they see me crying one day and they realize that, uh, you know, that is a bad thing to do, and they stop doing that behavior.

And this is gonna sound cold, but I say, so what? Mm-hmm. So, so you say No, they probably won't change, but what if they do the next day or the next week, or the next year? So what, because all you have, right, and I'm, and I'm gonna explain that all you have right now is what you see today. This is all you have for truth right now, today.

Mm-hmm. What is happening today? Because if what it was happening is the trend, right? Mm-hmm. What was happening yesterday and last year is the same thing that's been happening. You have to predict accurately that it will continue to happen that way. Even with the what ifs, because let's just say that, uh, we'll go for extremes.

Let's just say that you break up with a person because they're emotionally abusive and you still have that, what if, so what? So you break up and you have that, what if, well, what if they do change? And I'm not trying to decrease the sadness or anything like that. 'cause it's hard, right? Yeah, yeah. But okay, they change the next day or the next week, or they start healing.

When they start change that they start realizing that they're doing bad, they're being hurtful, and then they finally understand what they're doing and they say, oh, oh my God, you're right. All this time I've been hurting you. Then you can have a conversation then. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I see. To save those conversations for when it actually happens.

Not based on what ifs because all you have right now is what has been happening and what is happening today. And if you break up, if you get a divorce, if you go your own ways, and then the what if does happen, then have a have a conversation. You're either gonna be happy to be alone. Mm-hmm. Or maybe you'll be unhappy and you'll wanna reconnect.

Great. You can reconnect with them. Or you'll be in a new relationship and you'll think, well, maybe I don't need that relationship. I mean, there's all kinds of scenarios that can come up and uh, I'm not trying to minimize or invalidate or anything like that because this is a very difficult thing. And I'm not saying it's easy to just leave and all that.

These are all personal decisions. But I just don't want anybody to be held back by a what if, because what you have seen up to now and what you see today should be the factors that you base your decisions on for anything in the future. Yeah. That's why some people put their foot down because they put their foot down because they want this to work.

We, they want the person to stop hurting them. Right. But this, I, I'm done. I'm putting my foot down. The person who doesn't put that foot down is usually the one that, the abusive people have to be aware of that. That's it. It's over. Because they don't put their foot down. They just leave. That's it. I'm done.

I'm not gonna even talk to you. So when they put their foot down, if anyone who has been emotionally abusive and listening right now, that's a good thing. They're putting their foot down, they're honoring themselves. We should honor people who honor themselves. We should be happy for the person who's making the decision that's right for them.

So if somebody you love or you claim to love mm-hmm. Because you're hurting them still. If they are putting their foot down, they're saying, you gotta change because I want this to work. That's typically what happens. And sometimes that's not the case. Sometimes they put their foot down and said and say, that's it, it's over.

They can do that too, but, right. If they say you gotta change or else, then that's usually a good thing. That's a step in the right direction. If the abusive person is willing to look when inward and go through the changes they need to make. Well, and like, I think that's, that's like, that's I think the really hard part.

'cause when somebody is getting to that point where they're finally putting their foot down, so much went into that most, most likely for them to get to that point and to, and. Probably knowing that the person is gonna escalate as a result of them putting their foot down. Hmm. Um, but I, this is a time where like, I think survivors really begin to que, I mean, and I felt this way too, like, uh, really questioning my version of events.

Like, do am I being mean? Am I being rude? Am I being like them? If I put my foot down here and say, no, I'm not. You have to change this because I think that. Like with, um, because the abuser is so certain with their view most of the time, you know, and it kind of relates back to what you were talking about earlier around that they are, they, they're grasping to that like, sense of control or that need for control of like their own self, their own life from wherever it comes from.

So strongly. Yeah. That they, they are so certain when, like, we're usually not, you know, we're like, I'm setting this boundary and I'm scared. And some, I mean, I've certainly set them and have been confident at times where I'm like, I'm done. And like, you know, but there have been other times where I'm like, I can't do this anymore.

And it's coming with tears and actually uncertainty because I'm constantly being told I'm wrong. Oh, for sure. A lot of survivors actually wonder this question, so I wanna ask this, but like, why? Why do you think that the abuser stays so certain in their perspective on things, even when they can tell and like you're naming and you're saying, you are hurting me.

And it's like either they're stuck on like their intent and not the impact, which drives me nuts that there's one thing I'll ever stand on a soapbox for. It's, it's probably gonna be that. But the other thing is like they're so hung up on that we are seeing it wrong. Even if we're like, oh my God. Like do you see these screenshots of what you said to me?

That they still are very, very stuck on You're wrong. Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's part of the emotional arrogance. Mm-hmm. The arrogance that comes with wanting to protect yourself at the deepest level at all costs. And, um, there's also the accountability factor that, let's just say that the abusive person.

I know this is true in most cases, the abusive person, their only level of accountability is if you stay or not. Mm-hmm. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. And if, if you stay, then I'm doing nothing wrong. But if you leave, then oh crap, I gotta look at myself and look at what I'm doing and apologize a million times and beg for you to come back as the, you know, talking as the abuser there.

But yes, they have this self righteous arrogance. And it's hard to say that it's more of an inner self righteous arrogance that comes out in a way because we've met arrogant people and they're pretty obvious sometimes. Mm-hmm. But they seem to, a lot of abusive people seem to root their arrogance. In that conviction that they need to continue showing up this way.

Uh, a because they do believe they're right and that righteousness comes from very likely a deep need to protect themselves at the deepest layer, which they believe, uh, is that that's a survival mechanism to sur survive, literally survive. I mean, they may not think that way, but I remember when I was doing these behaviors, I was so afraid of my insecurities, and I didn't call 'em them, that back then, but my insecurities were fear of abandonment, fear of being alone.

I was so afraid of those insecurities materializing that if I didn't put my own foot down and be the way I was, that if those things materialized, that I would be extremely unhappy. Very sad, depressed, and all this other stuff. All the stuff that I didn't wanna feel. And so I, it was important for me, even in the face of, like you said, showing me texts, although this is a long time ago, I dunno if we had texts.

Yeah. But sh you know, showing me proof of what I did or what I said, or echoing back to me what I just said. It didn't matter to the point where I needed to change. Because again, if I was in my thoughts back then, if I was bad, if I was hurtful to you, you wouldn't be here. Mm-hmm. So this is just a, a regular relationship difficulty.

This is just something that, you know, if, again, coming back to the, the words, uh, if you just changed, we'd both be happy. If you just did what I told you to do, we'd both be happy even though what I'm doing, which was, uh, subtle control and manipulation. That has been happening in the background and the foreground for years and years and years.

And when those changes don't come, or when there's a violation according to the abuser that shows up, uh, on their radar and there's like, um, like a program that takes over mm-hmm. And said, no, this is what you need to do. It doesn't matter. Uh, it's sort of like, um, I don't wanna name names here, but, uh, some politicians, yeah.

Yeah. They, I mean, I'm, I'm gonna be very careful here. Some politicians will, uh, absolutely lie to your face, but they do it because it's, they believe it's for a greater good. It is. The greater good is for whatever themselves, the country, whatever. But they lie to your face and they control you and they control what happens to you because this is the right way to do it.

It's like, uh, almost of values and a morals. Drive for them. And those things are twisted. And I, I see this a lot where the emotional abuser will finally start understanding and healing and realize, oh crap, I've been doing this to my partner all this time. I'm just realizing this now. What an, I mean, some people will actually go this far and say, I'm just, I've just been an A-hole.

I've been so terrible. I feel shame. I feel guilt. And when you see that, when you hear that from an abusive person who starts the healing process, that's usually a very good sign that they're stepping into humility, into vulnerability, into admitting things that they believed they were right for all this time.

They were admitting things that maybe I haven't been right? Mm-hmm. It's a surprise to some people. Some of them know they're in control and they don't care if they're right or wrong. The lie to your face doesn't matter. And some of them, they've just been operating outta fear. And develop this whole subset of routines based on that fear.

And fear has been driving them their whole life, coming to the point where you say, uh, where they are steadfast and stand up in their own shoes believing they're right 100%. And where does that come from? And, and it all comes back to, again, protecting themselves. And by doing that, they also believe that they are, um, contributing to a bigger picture mm-hmm.

Of their own survival. The, the, the outcome of the relationship, the getting along with each other in the relationship. But clearly their perspective and their direction that they're taking the relationship is very skewed. They, they're basing it on a false premise or false premises. And so that, that can really twist.

I mean, this information doesn't really help the victim too much. It's like the inner workings of what's going on, all the victims. It, it helps them a lot more than you know, I think. Oh, really? Yeah. Because we spend so much time wondering what they're thinking, why they're thinking, how they can think that way.

Like it doesn't really lead. I, you know, and I. I caution people to like, you know, in a way you have to turn your empathy button off a little bit because you could say, oh, well, they're struggling so much. It's like, yeah, uh, yes. And it's not your responsibility to fix that for them because I, you know, so many people are struggling on their own, with their own stuff, right?

Like, I, I grew up in an abusive home and I've never been the abuser, you know, in these, I, I have been in therapy looking at all of the ways, I think, for, since I was 16. And so, um, like, just because I grew up that way, I, I'm not, I don't use that as like my badge of honor, you know, of like, right, this is why I can act this way, you know?

But I think that so many people really actually struggle with understanding why and how they think it actually helps a lot because. Otherwise you are one. I mean, otherwise you're honestly wondering if you're crazy, like, is everybody else seeing the world this way? Except for, except for me. And I think for me, the, like, the capacity to change thing is very confusing and I, I'm always thinking about it and thinking about like, how to wrap my mind around that.

Like, because if I have a capacity to change and if I feel like I'm always open to that, like when I am with my therapist or with my coach, I don't go into that thinking, I'm gonna make sure she thinks she's wrong. Like I go into it like. I'm open, you know, if she calls something out or like calls out a way that I'm thinking about something, I'm, I get really curious about it, you know, and I don't, I'm not like, okay, you're right about everything.

But it's more like, okay, let me think about that. Let me unpack that. What does that mean for me? Especially if I find myself defensive towards it. Well, that's a, that's a huge difference between victim abuser right there. Yeah. And when I see that coming out of abusive people who want to change and heal, when I see that curiosity come out, I mean, it's amazing.

I will say this, there's, there's a lot of abusive people out there that are truly good people underneath. And I'm not saying that as a defense. I'm just saying that's what I've noticed. Once these unhealthy coping mechanisms are gone and they are actually stepping into humility and vulnerability and being transparent and being finely honest with themselves and others that.

This is what the victims of abuse always see in the, in the people mm-hmm. In a lot of the abusive people. Is that that kind side, that wonderful side, that supportive side. I've seen that in so many people who have gone through that healing journey. And, you know, some won't get there. Some just wanna stay righteous and arrogant and be stuck in their, their own ways and believe everyone else is at fault.

Uh, but when I see that curiosity come out, just like you're saying, they'll say, so wait, you are saying that when I ask her to, uh, text me when she gets there, and then text me when she's there and when she's gonna leave, and then text me when she's leaving, that's controlling. And I, and I'll say, just accept her decision to text you or not, and be happy.

If she doesn't be happy. If she doesn't, they know. I mean, that's a very simplified thing. But yeah, there's a, a lot of, uh, revelations that come out for people that are going through this. And they start to realize, oh my God, everything I've believed is wrong and opposite of what I felt like I should be doing.

And I said, yes. Yeah, it's, yeah. This is why you keep causing people to disconnect and distance themselves from you. So yeah. I'm glad you glad you brought that up. Yeah, no, I think, and I think, you know, you and I talked about a relationship that I was in that I was really struggling to see 'cause it was so like emotionally coercive and very like.

I mean very based in trauma, right? Like his trauma and all that stuff. And like, it was really difficult for me to, I mean, I saw what was happening, but because of like the cognitive dissonance I was getting really, I was getting stuck. And then I remember like the, one of the most helpful things from that conversation with you was really unpacking, like why he would have thought certain ways actually, because it helped me not feel like it was me.

Mm-hmm. Like, it helped me not think that it was my fault, you know? And if I, uh, reflect even just today about the calls I've had this week, it's actually been a very, very, very busy week. This week. Every single day I've had at least one person say, why do you think he thinks this way? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's tough. And you know, I, I was explaining some of the inner workings of what I believe mm-hmm. About. A lot of abusive people. I, I can't pinpoint every single person who is abusive is actually thinking the same way. But in my experience over the last 15, 10, 15 years I've been doing this, um, I've seen it over and over again where it's always about how they could not develop a healthy coping mechanism for something or didn't have the opportunity to do it, or didn't have the role model to do it, to cope with challenges when they come.

And that when it's not addressed, those coping mechanisms aren't addressed. It gets built upon and built upon and built upon. And soon that core is so buried under all these behaviors that they believe are right, because if they weren't right then I wouldn't have survived as a child. But they believe in they're right.

So they get to this point where now they're an adult and they've set everything in stone, and these are all my beliefs and my morals and my values, and this is the direction I'm gonna go. It's, you know, when, when you are caring, when somebody's carrying around all of that, inside of them, other people don't have a chance.

Mm-hmm. Even to think about how they think. Right. Right. How does, yeah. If you're trying to discover, try to figure out the, the inner workings of someone's mind, especially when they have all those layers, they don't even know themselves why they're doing it, and they don't. They also, most of them don't believe that they're wrong, and so to have the conversation, like, why do you do that?

It probably won't go too far unless they're reflective and introspective, which most of them, mm-hmm. People are waking up, but a lot of them, they're not there, which is why the abuse continues. But then you said the victim feels like. What can I do differently? Like, just like you're reflecting when you're talking to your coach or your therapist mm-hmm.

You're reflecting, and that doesn't happen on their end. Right? They don't reflect. In fact, some of the stuff that I, um, teach for the people in abusive relationships and, you know, the, the victim of abuse and the abuser themselves, some of it they will try to apply in their life. Like they hear how somebody is being abusive to another person.

Like I'll talk on my show or whatever, and they'll think, okay, so all I have to do is do that. And what they'll do is apply behaviors and think, okay, I'm, I'm applying behaviors, this is great. But because they haven't dealt with the inner stuff, the fears and the insecurities and all that stuff, they haven't dealt with it.

They're only changing behaviors. It, it goes right back to who they used to be, right or right back to the patterns. Not really used to be, but who they are. It is based on all the decisions and all the behaviors that they make. Every day of their life with and around other people. And so if who you are is all these decisions and, and how you present yourself to the world, that's what I mean when I say they go back to who they were.

Mm-hmm. Because we can change who we are by making different decisions and doing different behaviors, but they're so stuck. They're so stuck in that mindset and they have to continue doing these behaviors. Otherwise it, it's going to feel like a death. And they, they won't use words like that. But from what I've learned, if you are a child and you have fears, you don't know what's gonna happen.

If something comes along, you don't know if you're gonna get hurt or die. You don't know. You just try to create a coping mechanism. You try to survive. And because you're trying to survive, you're protecting the most scared, fearful part of yourself, and I've already explained, at least how I see it, how you build upon that, and then you bring that into the world and it's all based on something you did at three years old or six years old.

You're mm-hmm. You're just, that's how you are from that point on without addressing it. And then unraveling that does take, usually does take help, does take therapy, does take a program like mine. Well, and it takes time too, right? Yeah. Like, you know, I'm sure you've heard the, you know, the person that went to one therapy session and comes back and is like, I'm better now.

You know? And I think it takes time. Like I, I give the example, which is like a really downplay example, but like, you know, for people that want to change their thinking like me, right? Like, like of my exam, like if somebody said. And I'm not a big coffee drinker, but I think the example helps, like you can never have coffee again.

And like my routine is I go say it's, I get up, I stop at the same Starbucks, I talk to the people there, I get my drink and I go to work. And that's like, I do, I do it every day for 10 years, 20 years, right? One day someone's like. You are never stepping foot in the Starbucks again. You know, you cannot drink coffee.

You have to go over to this other thing that's inconvenient and you have to get tea and make it through your day and be uncomfortable, right? Like that. Even for a healthy person that's like, oh my God, I have to change. Like that would be a big. Change and shift, and you'd have resentment and you'd be angry, and then like eventually over time, you know, you get used to it, but you might miss how it always was.

Now if you apply that to somebody that doesn't wanna make change at all whatsoever, right? And you're like an abusive person that is so stuck on this thinking and it really goes like back to like, this is the way that they see the world. Like, it's gonna take a ton of time and self-awareness until they're able to unravel a lot of those behaviors.

And I, I, I almost think I, you know, as you know, Paul, I've listened to every podcast that you, that you have, but I, I didn't know. Oh no, I, that's how I healed from my, well we've talked about this probably two years ago, but that's how I healed from the first abusive relationship was I would drop my daughter off every day and listen to, um, basically like, you know, you won repeat.

Because I felt I was so gaslit because he was this kind of person that was like so stuck in his version of reality. Like to the point that he would, so say there were screenshots, you know, of something, which he did typically. He'd be like, and your tone in this message was this. And I was like, how do you know that?

That's my tone. Right? Like, I responded to you quickly. 'cause you asked a question when I was at a red light, and like, I didn't reply to anything else because it was a logistical question and I answered it. And then I was like, so how do you know that that was my tone? He goes, I, I know your tone. I'm like, oh my God.

But like, um, just gaslighting. Yeah. Yeah. But I, I think maybe I'm wrong, but I do think it was from maybe like in some of the earlier episodes of Love and Abuse where you said that like, they. Now I lost my train of thought, but it was around the, it was on the tip of my head. It will come back about the time that it takes.

Oh yeah. Yeah. That if it's go, oh, here it is. If it's going to take a lot of time, is it worth your time staying for the hope or the possibility that they might follow through and change their behaviors. And then if it's like, if it is where it is right now, like if it's where we are right now, and that's all the information you have is today and what it's been for the last six years or whatever, and you are banking on that, they're gonna change.

Is it worth for you, you know, where you are in your life with your happiness, with your wellbeing, staying for the possibility that they may change 'cause uh, like of the time that will take too. Yeah. I mean you, I'm trying that on as you're saying my own words to me. If I Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That situation I'm thinking, oh boy, that's, uh.

That's something to reflect on for sure. Yeah, totally. Just like we were talking about earlier, you know, all you have is today and you know, anything could happen tomorrow. Mm-hmm. Anything, but here you are thinking the last 5, 10, 20, who knows how long you've been going through all these years, waiting for that change, hoping that they change and not seeing it.

And so, okay. Uh, is it worth doing that again? Is it worth going through another year? Mm-hmm. Do you think it's worth it? And then what is the outcome of that? Let's just say, you know, here's the thing. There's um, there's an unfortunate truth that comes from all of this. Wanting someone to change the unfortunate truth is 90, I'm gonna use these percentages over and over again.

99% of the time, the change comes after the foot goes down. Unfortunately, and I say it's unfortunate because a lot of victims of abusive relationships, they want to be able to change while in the relationship. They want to see that person change. They want to know that that person loves them enough to change, to stop hurting them.

And all, all, you know, the victims will always, a lot of 'em will say, all I need to do is this, and maybe they'll change, or maybe I could just do this, and maybe they'll change. They're willing to change themselves over and over again, or continuing to adapt to this other person when the reality is, and this comes straight from the source, I've seen this over and over again.

Me being the source of seeing what happens over and over again. Majority of the abusive people that I've seen change only did so when they were facing a real threat of the relationship ending. Mm-hmm. A real threat. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like I'm, I've got my bags packed and I'm walking out the door. And then they're like, whoa, what?

What? What do you mean? Wha And then suddenly, suddenly reality hits them. Mm-hmm. And so it's an unfortunate truth because it shouldn't have to get that far. This is what most people say. It shouldn't have to get that far to, for you to change. Why does it have to get this far? And they don't want to take that step because that could mean a real, yeah, a real change.

A real like, I don't have a place to live a real, oh great, we're gonna divorce. What about the kids? All of these things are real, but in order to see the change, do we have to get to that point? And most of the time, that's been what I've seen. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think helps survivors or victims, I guess, or Bo, I guess they're both right?

We're both sure. What do you think helps them get to that point? Well, it's the buildup, you know, the, the buildup happens, the tapping on the forehead. And I think what gets them to that point, some of the, like, some of the questions that I've raised on my show that we've talked about already, and I think it's an important question to tell yourself the truth and be honest.

The question of if nothing ever changes, will I be okay with it? You have to be honest with yourself. Mm-hmm. Okay. Let's just say I said yes. If nothing ever changes, I won't be okay with it. Of course not. And then my follow up to that is, I promise you it will never, ever change. I promise you, before you say anything.

Yeah, I say that knowing that I can't predict the future, you know, I can't predict the future. Mm-hmm. You know that I could be wrong tomorrow or next week, but that doesn't matter. Because in order to get you to a decision point of what you will or will not tolerate in your life, which are your personal boundaries, in order to get to that point, somebody may need to push you to that point.

And I don't mean to push, but somebody may need to help you get there. Mm-hmm. In a way that helps you reflect on what decision to make and why you need to make it. And this is how you get to that. I need to do something about it. I know it's never gonna change, so I will ask somebody, will you be okay with it if this never ever changes?

Mm-hmm. And they'll say, of course not. That'll be the answer. Of course not. I want it to change. And then as a way to help them decide, I will say, I promise it will never change. This is how it will be from this point on. Yeah. Unless you can prove to me it's been getting better and better over the last few weeks, months and years.

If you can prove that to me, then we, we might have a different conversation. But in most cases, if they're in that situation, if they're reaching out to me or you or whatever, they're gonna be in that place of man. Nothing's ever changed. You know? Nothing changes. It's always the same or it always is terrible.

It's always this, it's always that. Yeah. So yeah, if I step in and say, I promise you it'll never change. Well Paul, you're a liar. Well, you can say that and then continue wishing and hoping and praying that it does, which is, to your point, spending more time doing the same thing over and over again. Yeah.

That definition of insanity. Yeah. You could be doing that for the next five years. Is that okay? 10 years? Is that okay? And the the answer is obviously, nah, it's, it's not okay. But I do think a lot of people hold onto hope. And I also think that we need to limit the duration that we hold onto hope, because that keeps us in a place that can really.

Hurt the rest of our lives if we just never let go. Mm-hmm. And hope is a great thing in certain situations, and hope can hold us back in other situations and we can still hold onto hope even after we put our foot down. Because if there's still love in your heart, after you put your foot down, then there's still a chance that there can be something to that relationship.

If you want to figure it out, if you want to, you know, try to work on it after it's over. But if it doesn't end, then that's what we're looking at here. And that's when that, that's what helps you make decisions. When I, when I have to make decisions in my life, I just say, no, this is how it is today. It's not gonna change.

This is how it's, and that helps me make, make the decision. And if I'm wrong, okay, I'll adjust. The next day or the next week. That's, and, and I know again, that's simplifying, minimizing and not considering all the very difficult circumstances that one might be in. I totally get it. I totally get it. But my, I think one of my passions or tasks or whatever mm-hmm.

Responsibilities, I guess, is to make sure that whoever needs to hear this gets it in their system so that they know they have power, they know they are empowered to make decisions that are right for them. 'cause if you don't feel like you have power, you may stay stuck in hope. And again, hope is a great thing sometimes, but it can hold you back in other times.

Yeah. Abso absolutely. And um, and I think that, uh, one of the things that, like I do in my work is because like you said, like there's. You know, on a podcast like this, like there's no way to know anybody's individual, anything, you know? But the, the way I can see that, because I've lived it and lived so many different versions of it, I can see a lot of the patterns, like when people are talking and then work on how can we set boundaries for you.

And sometimes it's not a boundary that they're setting with the person, it's just within themselves. Like, because yes, it's like what? You know, if, so say if I'm always over explaining or trying to get this person to do something with me, you know, or trying to get them to care about this thing, it's like, well, what if we just stop and see what happens, right?

Because you're taking care of all the things anyway. All you're doing is putting in the mental and emotional and physical energy to that thing. And that's just like one example of so many variables. But it's almost like a way to see, okay, if you change what begins to shift in the narrative, you know, where you're not caretaking this whole thing anymore.

Yeah. Hundred percent. It's so powerful. Yeah. And I'm, and I'm glad you mentioned, um, boundaries like we, we talked about. Mm-hmm. Like I, I, I define boundaries as what you will and won't accept. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Some people. Yeah. Yeah. It's just simple. I just like it. So simple, uh, or what you will and won't accept in your life, what you will won't accept in your relationship.

And some people see it as well, I don't wanna, you know, tell them they can't do this and I don't wanna be the mean, the bad guy or anything like that. I hear some people go in that direction and you mentioned, you know, these boundaries. You said in so many words, these boundaries are for you. These aren't against other people.

These are for you. And when you honor yourself and your boundaries and you tell yourself, well, I won't accept, for example, somebody disrespecting me. That is a boundary of, of mine actually. I won't accept somebody disrespecting me. Mm-hmm. That's not against anyone. If they want to be disrespectful, they can, but it's for me.

So if I'm in that em in an environment where people are disrespecting me, then I mean, they're gonna say something or walk away or tell them, Hey, you gotta stop disrespecting me. I don't appreciate it. And I think I've said something like that to people in the past. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, uh, and it was, for me, it wasn't mean.

Mm-hmm. It wasn't meant to be against them. They can be who they want because I do my, I do my best, uh, as, uh, of accepting people as they are. But some people are. Yeah. Yeah. Jerk. So if I accept them as who they are, then I have to honor myself and take care of myself, protect myself, and do my own thing.

That might be to mention something to them or walk away. So that's, I wanted to mention that about personal boundaries. Some people think it's doing something against somebody else, but it's always about you. It's always for you. Yeah, no, sometimes it's just about real. And sometimes like, you know, like I go through this with my mom a lot where I'm like, I have to realize and remember right where things are now based on what I know she's not going to change and so I can accept it.

Right? Like she hasn't been open to feedback for a while now. She used to be, she's not. Right. Like, and, but if I keep. Pushing against this over and over again. I'm just suffering, you know, myself. But like, what I am in control of is my boundaries, my space, my availability, my ability to pick up the phone at times, you know, and my brothers have such different ones 'cause they live with her, so it's much different.

And it's like, you know, and they're younger, uh, they, you know, have different survival mechanisms. But it's like that reminder of I can't, all I can control in this situation is myself and I'm allowed to have those boundaries. Right. Because sometimes you have to look at it and be like, all right, I don't wanna fight against this battle anymore.

Oh, how freeing is that too? Yeah. Yeah. Well scare, it's a lot of grief, but then it is more freeing because you're not trying to change something. It's totally gr I can totally get that. It it is grief. It's, it's sad. You wanna see that person change, but trying to change somebody who seems unchangeable. It, it, you are putting all this outward energy into it and it never changes.

And it never changes. Mm-hmm. Okay. So I can't change you. I'm gonna free myself. Of working on that because there's nothing I can do about that. And just accept that that's who they're gonna be for the rest of their lives and my life. And if I accept that, then where does it come back to? It comes back to me and what I need to do for myself.

Just like you said, well worded. Yeah. Yeah. Paul, I really appreciate you joining me. Again. I get so many compliments on the episodes that we do together, so I, and I really think you provide so, so much value. Can you tell people how they can find you and just touch on the mean workbook? I've been talking about it a lot lately with like my one-on-one clients, um, because it obviously is a tool to really begin to see what's actually going on in your relationship.

Um, so I'd love if like you could tell people where, what it is and where to find it. Uh, thank you as always. I really enjoy being here and as I always say, it's, it's a tough subject to talk about and sometimes we'll laugh and sometimes we'll be happy and it, I know there's just, there are people in terrible, terrible situations out there, but you are out there.

I am out there. We are doing our best to get the word out, to give you the power that you need to make these decisions to whatever you need to do. I, you know, I don't think you or me try to push anybody out of a relationship. We just really want them to have knowledge. We want them to have the knowledge, the power to make decisions, feel like they.

Feel like they have somebody supporting them and giving them direction and guidance or, or just a, a kind word. And knowing that, um, they're, they're not, they're not at fault here for being abused. That's, it's not your fault. So this is my little monologue. Um, you can reach me through, uh, love and abuse.com or the overwhelmed brain.com.

It's probably easy with love and abuse.com. Mm-hmm. I have a contact page over there. Um, but I do that podcast, um, sometimes once or twice a month. It depends, sometimes three times a month. Um, but, um, you can reach me that through that and@loveandabuse.com. Well, actually, let me direct people that listening to this episode or listening to this show, to your website to get the mean workbook, because you are, you're providing this.

I'll put it in, I'll put it in show notes too, so that people can just scroll down and, and well give, give them the URL give 'em the website so I can talk about it and yeah. Edit it there. No, you can say it. I don't, I actually don't know what it is on that. Oh, you don't know? Yeah. I'm like, go to Jessica's website and it's somewhere on there.

Well, okay. Um, well, I'm pulling it up. So if you go to emotional abuse coach.com and then go to, um, resources, there's a dropdown where it has my Substack the Pod podcast. Um, and then a bit like a, like the National Hotlines is at the bottom, but the Mean workbook is smack in the middle. Great. Um, and it will bring you right to Paul's mean workbook.

I, I like to send people, you, these are people that you have connected with and I want them to go to your website and connect with you there too. So that's why she has a, um, the mean workbook as well. The Mean workbook is something I created like in 2017 and it was after I read some books and I talked to my wife who was married to a sociopath, and she said she read a book once and she said, you know, I was checking these boxes.

And I said, yes. That's what's happening in my relationship. That's what's happening in my relationship. That's what's happening in my relationship. And so I said, you know, uh, people need an assessment. People need an assessment of what's going on in their relationship. Is it abusive? Is it controlling? If it is, how, what are the behaviors?

Can I pinpoint the behaviors? So I worked on this for like. I don't know, like a year and a half before I actually, uh, put it out there. But, um, it is called the Mean Workbook. That's, uh, stands for Manipulation and Emotional Abuse number. It's an assessment, it's a workbook that helps you understand what's going on in your relationship.

It assesses your relationship for the amount of, uh, manipulation and control and emotional abuse in it. And, um, it's, it's gotten a lot of good reviews as far as, wow, you really made me, uh, understand what's happening and, um. It, it, it has been, it has been helpful for a lot of people. So you can read about it at, uh, Jessica's website and, um, take, you know, if you do that, you'll take the assessment, you'll understand just exactly what's going on in your relationship and maybe get some, some enlightenment.

And you might be listening to this now, going, I don't need to know what's going on. I already know what's going in relationship. But there are, there are some people out there that say, well, I don't know if it's emotional abuse and is it me? Is it, is it them? I, I don't know. So that workbook really clarifies things and, uh, really condenses a lot of stuff that we talked about today in, in certain ways as well.

Yeah, and I think it's really helpful if you're wondering if it is abuse. It's a, yeah, a really good resource because it makes it, it makes it undeniable. Having for yourself makes it undeniable for yourself, having a number to associate with it. A lot of people go, oh, you know, I'm 126. Oh, I didn't know it was that bad.

So I hear that a lot and um, I like the lower numbers, but at the same time, it's very helpful to know just how much is happening because like we said earlier, sometimes the toleration levels and the resilience that we believe might be a good thing in life is not good in abusive relationships. So we develop these toleration levels and this resilience and it gets bigger and bigger and stronger.

And, uh, suddenly we don't realize just how deep we're in it. Yeah. And that can be helpful. Yeah. The, the workbook can be helpful for that. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining me again, and I know we'll do this again soon. That's awesome. Thank you so much, Jessica. We'll talk again soon. I appreciate it.