EP 4: Rethinking Career and Family Responsibilities

Interview with Dave Andrews / Air Force Officer, Commercial Pilot, Lead Dad

Hosted By Paul Sullivan

Flying was Dave Andrews’ dream. As an officer in the Royal Canadian Air Force, he flew military operations and supported humanitarian aid missions; he also flew the prime minister under the call sign, CanForce One. He went on to fly for Air Canada where he was just as likely to wake up in Hawaii as Canada. But his priorities shifted when his son was born. Now he works in civil aviation and is a Lead Dad to his wife, a doctor, and their son. Hear how he managed the shift and has continued to be fulfilled.

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Transcript

00;00;00;01 - 00;00;21;17
Paul Sullivan
I'm Paul Sullivan, your host on the Company of Dad podcast, where we explore the sweet, sublime, strange and silly aspects of being a lead D&D. In a world where men often feel they have to hide, or at least not talk about their parenting role. I know this from firsthand experience as a lead dad to my three girls, three dogs, three cats, and, somewhat remarkably, three fish who are still alive.

00;00;21;20 - 00;00;39;10
Paul Sullivan
I did this all while managing my career and striving to be an above average husband. One thing I know for sure about being a dad is it's not a normal role you're not doing with dads have traditionally done going to work and leaving the parenting to mom or someone else. Nor are you always welcome into the world where moms are the primary caregivers.

00;00;39;13 - 00;00;58;10
Paul Sullivan
But here at the Company of Dads, our goal is to shake all that off and to focus on what really matters family, friendship, finance, and fun. Today, my guest is Dave Andrews. After setting finance at the University of Ottawa. Dave found that what he really wanted to do was be a pilot. So he joined the Royal Canadian Air Force.

00;00;58;13 - 00;01;25;25
Paul Sullivan
Whereas air time ranged from transporting the prime minister to flying military operations and supporting humanitarian aid missions. He then went on to fly for Air Canada, where he flew Boeing's 737 Max in America, Europe and the Pacific. Today, Dave is the lead that role he took on during Covid. He worked for Transport Canada, the Canadian equivalent of the FAA in the US, and it has taken on the primary parent role to his toddler while his wife works as a physician.

00;01;25;27 - 00;01;28;18
Paul Sullivan
Welcome, Dave to the Comfort of Dads podcast.

00;01;28;20 - 00;01;38;21
Dave Andrews
And thanks, Paul. Appreciate you having me here. It's, it's nice to connect with you. And, everything you spoke about in your intro is, was true.

00;01;38;23 - 00;01;39;09
Paul Sullivan
That's that's how I.

00;01;39;10 - 00;01;41;14
Dave Andrews
Just appreciate it. Yeah. It's good.

00;01;41;17 - 00;01;55;22
Paul Sullivan
It's good. So, Dave, you and I met when? When, the final story I wrote ran in the New York Times, and you emailed me. And over the past, you know, several months we've been going back and forth, and I'm just. I'm really grateful that you've joined me today because I think you got a great story.

00;01;55;25 - 00;01;56;04
Dave Andrews
Thanks.

00;01;56;05 - 00;02;04;00
Paul Sullivan
And if it's okay with you, you know, let's skip over the finance degree, okay? And get right. Yeah. You know.

00;02;04;02 - 00;02;09;02
Dave Andrews
I agree. So is this four years of. Yeah. Let's get after it.

00;02;09;05 - 00;02;19;22
Paul Sullivan
You know, let's get right to the Royal Canadian Air Force. I mean that, yeah. Amazing. Did you always want to fly as a kid? No. You know what?

00;02;19;22 - 00;02;26;24
Dave Andrews
I, Yeah. You know, growing up in the 80s, my parents let me watch Top Gun. So that kind of.

00;02;26;24 - 00;02;29;20
Paul Sullivan
I love Top Gun, so my daughter loves it, too.

00;02;29;23 - 00;02;51;16
Dave Andrews
It's good. It's good. So that was always in the back of my mind. But no, I didn't. I, you know, my family was always. Education was always important. So, I decided to go to school and do a finance degree. Didn't really love it. Wasn't a passion. Kind of remembered that I like Top Gun. So I thought I'd give the Air Force a go.

00;02;51;18 - 00;03;10;13
Dave Andrews
You know, made it through training, didn't didn't go the fighter pilot route ended up being, a transport pilot. Which was awesome. Let me see the world. So, flew around the world for seven years with the Air Force. Literally flew around the world. It was great. Great friends, great mentors, great bosses, great experiences.

00;03;10;16 - 00;03;16;07
Dave Andrews
And then I had to make a decision. Do I stay, do I go? I left, went to work in industry. Hey.

00;03;16;08 - 00;03;19;29
Paul Sullivan
I'm sorry. We gotta go more. We gotta go more. Okay. All right, all right.

00;03;20;03 - 00;03;20;18
Dave Andrews
Yeah.

00;03;20;20 - 00;03;27;16
Paul Sullivan
There'll be plenty of time to talk about Boeing. And. Yeah, yeah. But, I mean, when you say. I mean, how many countries did you go to?

00;03;27;18 - 00;03;52;16
Dave Andrews
Yeah. I mean, all the continents except for Antarctica. So we went, down to southern Argentina. Africa. So I know Argentina isn't a continent, but South America, the southern tip of South America, throughout Africa, Europe, Asia, throughout the Pacific, all throughout the States, you know, everybody, when we were operating through, through the continental US, it was fantastic to us.

00;03;52;16 - 00;03;55;01
Dave Andrews
So, you know, everywhere. Everywhere.

00;03;55;04 - 00;03;58;28
Paul Sullivan
What were the what were the most what were some of the most memorable missions? Like some of them. Yeah.

00;03;58;28 - 00;04;21;06
Dave Andrews
You know what? The challenging ones, I guess the challenging ones when you're operating with a friend, you know. And that was what was great about the Air Force for me is that, it was small, our unit was small, and I got to go and and work in stressful situations with some of my best friends. You know, an experience you don't have in high school or you don't have in university or college.

00;04;21;09 - 00;04;45;01
Dave Andrews
So, yeah, you know, operating in those challenging environments, with, with passengers who have or clients who have tight timetables and important meetings or equipment and individuals who have to get to, to certain places, for certain reasons. So, yeah, the challenge of, of of working that out and not coming home and sleeping in your own bed and having those creature comforts at home.

00;04;45;02 - 00;04;49;23
Dave Andrews
So it was great. It was it was a lot of fun. When you and I know that's very big.

00;04;49;26 - 00;04;51;18
Paul Sullivan
I know I,

00;04;51;20 - 00;04;53;14
Dave Andrews
You know what I want, I want, I know.

00;04;53;16 - 00;04;57;01
Paul Sullivan
It's yeah, I know it's, you know, quick runway, touch and go.

00;04;57;08 - 00;04;59;05
Dave Andrews
Yeah. Yeah.

00;04;59;07 - 00;05;01;00
Paul Sullivan
You're not allowed to say, is that it?

00;05;01;03 - 00;05;06;27
Dave Andrews
It's not that. It's just sometimes those are. Those are stories for 20 or 30 years down the road. Right?

00;05;06;29 - 00;05;16;20
Paul Sullivan
You know, I have to ask, you know, in the United States and the president is on that Boeing, it is becomes Air Force One when you fly the Prime Minister. Do you have a certain call signal?

00;05;16;20 - 00;05;38;21
Dave Andrews
Yeah. Yeah, it's a great question. Yeah. It's a call science. Can't force one so very similar. But, Canadian Air Force uses and this is open source that uses, can force call sign. So, the orders drive, the Prime Minister as, can force one. So, yeah, it's interesting, you know, as a young guy in my 20s, being able to operate with that callsign was a lot of fun.

00;05;38;23 - 00;05;40;02
Dave Andrews
And when you take a getting.

00;05;40;04 - 00;05;49;27
Paul Sullivan
Getting chills, I'm getting tense. It's hard to tell that. I mean, that is so cool. Like, you're you're, you know, coming in for a landing and you're like, you know, call in the tower, and I just can't force one.

00;05;49;27 - 00;06;11;06
Dave Andrews
Yeah, yeah. It's fine. And again, it's it's different. Yeah. It's good. I mean, even operating down into the DC area. So, into Joint Base Andrews, you know, operating in there with can't force one call sign, for, Leaders summit. Really interesting work. And, you know, when you take a step back and as you age, you become wiser.

00;06;11;06 - 00;06;26;00
Dave Andrews
I think. And you don't realize, you know, at the time when you're young, the pressure and the implications of the job you have, you know, and you're just one cog in the wheel, you know, I'm just a guy that goes to work and drives a bus with wings, right? You know, you're you're.

00;06;26;02 - 00;06;27;15
Paul Sullivan
A prime minister. You know.

00;06;27;17 - 00;06;44;24
Dave Andrews
You're part of the team. No, no, but, you know, there's there's so many pieces here that it's not just me, but. Yeah, you know, looking back, it was it was really interesting work. And, yeah, it was it was a great chapter. Right. And again, you know, maybe I'll highlight the one point and yeah, it was cool.

00;06;44;24 - 00;07;04;12
Dave Andrews
The people in the back and, and the things and the places. But what was important to me was my friendship, which I still have, you know, one of the guys I, I flew with, on Squadron stood up at my wedding, and those are friendships and that I'll take with me forever. And they're they're great, you know, great bros.

00;07;04;15 - 00;07;21;05
Dave Andrews
And at the time, it was all men at the squadron, but great people that, you know, you go in and out of each other's lives, you know, it doesn't have to be every week. Every month. It's it's it's yearly. But you just you reconnect because you have that common experience. And I'm sure that translates across, you know, any job, any experience.

00;07;21;05 - 00;07;38;06
Dave Andrews
You know, it's like you in your world with journalism, you can reconnect with someone from a decade ago and it's like it was yesterday. So it's yeah, it was good. It was just good times. But the people that the people that I got to work with versus the people in the back was, was, what I really took away from those experiences.

00;07;38;08 - 00;07;43;08
Paul Sullivan
I don't want to come across as too much of a fanboy here, but did you did you also get, like, a cool name yourself? Like.

00;07;43;12 - 00;07;44;05
Dave Andrews
No.

00;07;44;07 - 00;07;44;28
Paul Sullivan
That's a no.

00;07;44;28 - 00;08;06;04
Dave Andrews
No, that's no, that's a fighter pilot thing. And, you know, that's a that's a I respect that world. I never I never went down that route. But now Dave, Dave, was it because, you know, I'm sure if there are, guys or girls from the transport world listening to this or from the non fighter pilot world, you know, they'll know what I'm talking about.

00;08;06;04 - 00;08;11;19
Dave Andrews
But that's, I think that's, a tradition, from a different, from a different world, which I'm not a part of.

00;08;11;22 - 00;08;28;07
Paul Sullivan
So you think about, you know, when I introduce you, there's really. It was a range of of flights that you were, were on, you know, from against the transfer of the prime minister to a humanitarian aid mission. Who, who? Yeah. Who's that for? You? How would you know? Yeah. Hey. It's Monday, this is what I'm going to do today.

00;08;28;08 - 00;08;46;25
Dave Andrews
Well, you don't we, you know, we day to day and that that's that was what was hard about that that world. And if, if people are listening who are living in that world, they'll understand that struggle. It's, it's a bit exhausting, you know, it's it's it's literally 24 over seven and you don't know, where are you going to be tomorrow?

00;08;46;25 - 00;09;04;21
Dave Andrews
And I and I, that sounds very romantic. And it's it is, but it's not after a couple of years. But. Yeah, it's it's, you don't know, and it just comes down in terms of high level, who has to go where and what are the priorities. So, yeah, that was a bit, tiring. You know, I did that for seven years.

00;09;04;23 - 00;09;20;15
Dave Andrews
And not knowing where you're going to be tomorrow, if you're going to be home or if you're going to be home for a birthday or can I go out for dinner on the weekend, I don't know. So that answer kind of was one of the reasons that drove me to sort of more stability and industry. And here we are.

00;09;20;17 - 00;09;26;03
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. But yeah, yeah, Segway into that, segway into the decision, you know, after, what, seven years? I think you said.

00;09;26;07 - 00;09;27;26
Dave Andrews
Yeah, seven years. Go to.

00;09;27;28 - 00;09;30;12
Paul Sullivan
Canada to. Yeah. Make the transition.

00;09;30;14 - 00;09;54;28
Dave Andrews
Yeah. It's great. I mean, again, you know, my contract was coming due, and you have to make a decision and, and I wanted, you know, I was still in my early 30s. I didn't have a family yet. I wanted to still operate airplanes. You know, that's that's what I love to do. I loved, you know, executing on a plan and coming home and feeling like you've accomplished something in that day.

00;09;54;28 - 00;10;16;26
Dave Andrews
Right. So transition to Air Canada. I went through the application process, which was nerve wracking. You know, it's like any job interview process, nothing's a guarantee. So, I got hired on and and went through their indoctrination program and, and ended up on the 737 max, which is pretty neat. You know, new machine in general.

00;10;16;28 - 00;10;39;06
Dave Andrews
New machine to the airline. Got to go through their training system, training programs. It was really great. And the network that it was flying was, was a lot of fun, you know, as a narrowbody, sort of what is typically a transcontinental jet that stays, stays in sort of North America, continental US, Caribbean. We were operating over to London Heathrow, over the North Atlantic.

00;10;39;06 - 00;11;01;15
Dave Andrews
We were operating to, Maui, to a Wahoo. So that was really fun. You know, my first, Christmas at the airline, I was, I did three Maui's in a London and a 20 day span. So, you know, a four day pairing home for a day, four day pairing home for a day. But, yeah, it was tiring, right?

00;11;01;17 - 00;11;09;24
Paul Sullivan
I mean, come on, with all due respect, with all due respect to the the prime minister fly in Hawaii, getting the layover. That that sounds pretty nice.

00;11;09;26 - 00;11;31;23
Dave Andrews
That's good. No complaints. Right. And again, just to reiterate, reiterate, you know, I was the first officer in that world, so it was, Yeah, it was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. And another really interesting chapter. And, I'm not sure if I've closed the book on that one yet, but, life's good as it is, right now in terms of having flexibility to to be a dad.

00;11;31;23 - 00;11;51;26
Paul Sullivan
For any, sort of airplane enthusiasts. Listen to this. You know, the Boeing 737 Max had such great promise when it came out, and it was a really bumpy rollout. They had all kinds of issues with the mechanics. Couple of them. What was when you were would you read those news reports and hear the struggles that people were having with that particular aircraft?

00;11;51;26 - 00;11;57;21
Paul Sullivan
What was your own, you know, personal, experience with the 737 Max?

00;11;57;23 - 00;12;14;29
Dave Andrews
Yeah, I mean, I, I trust in, I trusted in the regulator, I trusted in the company and the decisions they were making. So, I don't think you're going to get a lot out of me. I tend to stay in in lane and scope. In terms of opinions. So, yeah, you know, it was it was stressful times.

00;12;15;02 - 00;12;37;17
Dave Andrews
No one knew what was happening. At, at my level, you know, day to day, minute to minute. But I think, as an employee, my company treated me well, kept me in the loop, like, management kept us in the loop. So I don't really have too much to say about that. No. Yeah. The Boeing or the Max, other than, you know, I enjoyed I enjoyed my time on it, and I enjoyed flying it.

00;12;37;17 - 00;12;42;23
Dave Andrews
And it's pretty cool to see, you know. 737 Max in the logbook, right? It's a good story.

00;12;42;26 - 00;12;47;00
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, yeah. And touching down in Hawaii or touching down in London? Yeah.

00;12;47;04 - 00;12;51;09
Dave Andrews
That's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah. It's fun right? It's fun. That's good times. Yeah.

00;12;51;12 - 00;12;55;20
Paul Sullivan
I guess there's no hazing where you had to fly to some, like, regional airport, in Canada. Wow.

00;12;55;20 - 00;12;56;17
Dave Andrews
Like, yeah.

00;12;56;17 - 00;12;59;03
Paul Sullivan
Like Kansas City or something like that.

00;12;59;06 - 00;13;15;11
Dave Andrews
I'd say. Yeah. You know, I'd say I was lucky in the past, you know, and I, luck in hard work, but, you know, lucky in the path that I chose and that I was able to go on in terms of going to the Air Force and then going to a major Canadian airline. Not everybody has that path.

00;13;15;11 - 00;13;27;19
Dave Andrews
A lot of people have to go, fly up north. You know, you work your way through the different carriers, but but I'd say it was I was very lucky with with the experience I had in aviation and continue to have in aviation.

00;13;27;22 - 00;13;39;25
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. Now we're gonna talk about we're here to talk about you being a dad, but yeah, between between flying a plane and being a dad. You must have met your wife. So where where did we. You still a pilot when you matter.

00;13;39;28 - 00;13;44;04
Dave Andrews
When did you actually, we met back at. We met back in high school, so I met back in high school.

00;13;44;04 - 00;13;49;28
Paul Sullivan
So the whole time you're flying in the in the Royal Canadian Air Force, you were together. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. She was going.

00;13;50;04 - 00;14;15;24
Dave Andrews
Through. Oh, that's a great question. Let me run the numbers. Just about seven years, but we've been together, you know, close to 20. So since our late teens. So yeah. So we we were together through university through and through her med school, through my Air Force training. So lots of change, lots of struggle. But, she's a pretty awesome woman.

00;14;15;27 - 00;14;32;17
Dave Andrews
I know everybody says they're lucky, but, you know, when you're having conversations with people you don't know, you know, who aren't your family or your close friends, you really you really think about how lucky you are to have a partner in this game. Like, like I do. So I'm, I'm just a shout out to my wife.

00;14;32;19 - 00;14;33;14
Paul Sullivan
I love it. Go ahead.

00;14;33;14 - 00;14;34;24
Dave Andrews
Yeah.

00;14;34;27 - 00;14;52;13
Paul Sullivan
And so. So she was there with you guys. You're flying all over the world. But of course, you're, you know, you're kind of your young kids, and like you said, she's she's in medical school. You're flying around. But at what point does it seem like. Okay, you know, maybe we need to make, a shift here. Is it when your your son is born or to talk to me about.

00;14;52;13 - 00;15;22;27
Dave Andrews
Yeah, yeah. The, you know, I, I left the Air Force going to the airlines thinking I wanted to fly. Fly forever. And then, you know, I think, my role in this, in this partnership, my awareness of what I, my role had to be really stemmed from Covid and the birth of my son. So, you know, up in Canada a lot, a lot shut down, you know, the hospitals where, you know, the birth wasn't what we expected in terms of my role in it.

00;15;22;29 - 00;15;41;06
Dave Andrews
And, and, so that that, you know, I don't want to say disappointing because he's healthy. He's happy. That's all that matters, but not what you expected. Right. And then and then the industry took a bit of a downturn, and I really had to try and figure out, how was I going to be a father?

00;15;41;06 - 00;16;03;23
Dave Andrews
Because I wanted to play a role and and support, my wife, my family, my child, but but stay in aviation. So I actually, took a leave from the company from the Air Canada flight back to the Air Force. Worked some project work, as a reservist in the Air Force. And then I found an opportunity with Transport Canada.

00;16;03;25 - 00;16;28;12
Dave Andrews
A friend, sent me, a job posting, and I applied and interviewed and and and I'm grateful to have, had that opportunity and to have the opportunity to work with the organization I'm working at now. So, so it's, it's multifaceted to to come back to your question, it's, it's Covid and, and my son actually being my son and not just, you know, the being right.

00;16;28;12 - 00;17;02;03
Dave Andrews
So, yeah, a bit of a struggle to make that change. You know, you have these, these romantic ideas of what you want to do for your career or your life, but then things change and you have to roll with that change. And I think with the support of my wife, she helped me sort of change roles from being a person who was focused on that operation, all level of work to to build out the skill set and go back to my finance degree and build out those skill sets, and to be able to play a bigger role in, in, in a different organization.

00;17;02;06 - 00;17;24;14
Dave Andrews
But again, you know, what does the future hold? I don't know. We'll see. You know, we'll see. We'll see how this folds out. We'll see. You know, does our family get bigger? Yeah, it's multifaceted. But to be able to again, I know I'm lucky, but to be able to build on skill sets that the Air Force gave me and my eye undergraduate degree gave me, I'm grateful for that and opportunity.

00;17;24;16 - 00;17;31;03
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. I mean, you pivot it, you pivoted, but you pivoted within your your field. You're still in aviation. You're just doing something. Yeah.

00;17;31;05 - 00;17;57;16
Dave Andrews
Aviation and and, you know, showed it, to the Air Force is they, they really build, build a well-rounded individual. You know, you really have time to think about the skills, the, and the awareness and the responsibility they gave you. So that I think is really helped, as an individual who's institute has tried to pivot away from ops into into a bigger, bigger sort of broader job.

00;17;57;18 - 00;18;01;02
Dave Andrews
Yeah. Not not on the flight deck. Right. Sure.

00;18;01;04 - 00;18;09;27
Paul Sullivan
Let's get a little granular here, because, yeah, I think the pivot is something that, a lot of listeners might really, appreciate hearing about so that your son is 20 months, right? Is that.

00;18;09;27 - 00;18;10;25
Dave Andrews
Correct? Yes. Yeah.

00;18;10;25 - 00;18;31;00
Paul Sullivan
That's great. Let me do some, simple, ninth grade, arithmetic here. Your wife's pregnant for more or less nine months. That's 29, right? At what point in that, you know, sort of two and a half year period. Did the two of you start having the conversation about, How are we gonna what are we going to do when our son is born?

00;18;31;04 - 00;18;33;08
Paul Sullivan
Who is going to be the lead dad who's career?

00;18;33;11 - 00;19;03;03
Dave Andrews
Yeah. So that's, that's a great question, Paul. And, you know, all along the plan was for me to be gone 18 days a month. So from day one through pregnancy up until, you know, well, came into our lives, the plan was for me to to be gone and be a pilot and live that world. So we we planned based on that in terms of parental, parental leave, which is different up here.

00;19;03;06 - 00;19;43;16
Dave Andrews
And, and child care etc., etc.. So, so really the pivot came with Covid and me realizing my responsibilities and realizing so realizing that, you know, it's not the same for everybody. I'm not here to preach, to tell people this is what I'm doing and this is the right way. And I don't want it to be interpreted as that, but based on our circumstances and and the profession that my wife has chosen and the responsibilities and the time that takes, I really had to take a step back and realize, you know, maybe that dream, and the romance of, of to me, being an airline pilot, maybe that doesn't fit into what we need.

00;19;43;19 - 00;20;06;16
Dave Andrews
So she never and I'm again, I'll loop it back to to I am a lucky man to have, partner in my life like Stephanie. She never pushed me down that road. She let me drive it to sort of bring it into the lead, dad. Or, you know, lead dad or being a more present parent, and being home.

00;20;06;22 - 00;20;17;09
Dave Andrews
Right. So she never pushed that. It was. It was driven by me, but supported by her. So that's kind of how we came to that. I'm not sure if we got to the to the nitty gritty on that one.

00;20;17;11 - 00;20;23;20
Paul Sullivan
That's all right. So was your son born when you left, Air Canada or. Yeah.

00;20;23;20 - 00;20;44;19
Dave Andrews
Yeah, he was. So he was, he's an April baby. And then, I, I took a leave from the company in the summertime, so, you know, it was it was the birth. It was that, you know, you you can plan, but whether or not you execute on that plan is different, right? So we planned and then reality happened and we had to shift.

00;20;44;19 - 00;20;59;02
Dave Andrews
So so yeah, Will was around and I realized I wanted I wanted to be home, I needed to be home. And I had you know, I had the means to do that. So that's, you know, it's not for everybody, but but that's kind of the direction we took it. Right?

00;20;59;05 - 00;21;08;24
Paul Sullivan
But also, is it fair to say that your wife is a physician? Maybe she had less control over her schedule, unless you had a bit more control to sort of make this pivot. Is that fair?

00;21;08;24 - 00;21;29;17
Dave Andrews
Exactly. Oh, for sure. And and, you know, you, you take a step back and you think about, especially during, the pandemic, the role that she was playing was was very important, too. And again, I'm not here to say, you know, Saint I'm a savior. But, you know, you really have to take a step back and think about the bigger picture.

00;21;29;20 - 00;22;04;06
Dave Andrews
From our family unit perspective, and, yeah, she, she did have a less flexible job and less flexible opportunity. And if you look back at, you know, the partnerships of 40, 50, 60 years ago, it's kind of flipped in terms of the breadwinner, too. So, you know, not to talk income, but, but that, that decided, you know, 30, 40 years ago who stayed home and, and, that sort of, pushed me to maybe revisit my career choices to enable me to be home, because it wasn't just wasn't just me that was providing.

00;22;04;09 - 00;22;18;28
Paul Sullivan
Right? I get a day. This is the same situation. Yeah. Yeah, I'm in that I've been in for 13 years that I wrote about in the The New York Times, but I always figure, like, instead of, like, forcing it and saying, okay, well, I'm still the man I need to go out and just say, like, you know what?

00;22;19;00 - 00;22;32;28
Paul Sullivan
We're a partnership. And if we're going to be a partnership, one of us is going to be the lead parent. You can be a dad, you can be the lead mom. But in the case of you and me, we're really dads. And yeah, I don't know. I mean, I find it, I can't even, I think, more rewarding and to, to balance everything.

00;22;33;01 - 00;22;59;08
Paul Sullivan
But I have to ask you in terms of. Yeah, you know, you must have been in some pretty hairy situations which you're not going to tell me for 20 years, in the Air Force, but I can you know, romanticize it. You know, I sure, I've, I've seen enough Jerry Bruckheimer movies to understand how you're coming in and all that, but when you think of, like, you know, the craziest hairiest day you had in the Air Force and then compare it to the day at home when you're trying to organize everything with a really serious day job.

00;22;59;08 - 00;23;22;06
Paul Sullivan
Let's be honest, if Covid allows certain among us to work from home, but you are working for transfer again, that's a serious, a day job. Yet your son is absolutely going bonkers. Like losing his shit. What have you. What would you have taken from that time in the Air Force of of managing a stressful situation and related to being a dad in parenting?

00;23;22;06 - 00;23;25;04
Paul Sullivan
So I think that's something that the listeners might, might benefit from.

00;23;25;08 - 00;23;36;17
Dave Andrews
Yeah. You know. Yeah for sure. And again, maybe I'll I'll start this with, you know, it's a partnership too. I, I don't want to say that I'm here and I take the brunt of the childcare.

00;23;36;21 - 00;23;47;02
Paul Sullivan
Don't be so self-effacing. I don't want to be. I'm going to say, like, you know, the Prime Minister had 17 cocktails in the back, and I'm trying to land in Kuala Lumpur in the dark and, you know,

00;23;47;04 - 00;24;18;20
Dave Andrews
Yeah, Kuala Lumpur. That was actually a great spot. But, yeah. You know, it's, this is more stressful than any day I had. And being a parent, being frustrated, at bedtime because, you know, you can't communicate effectively. There's no effective communication. There's no level of career resource management or human performance in military aviation training that can help you really communicate with a 20 month old.

00;24;18;22 - 00;24;46;06
Dave Andrews
So, you know, taking time, taking a step back and taking, I think, is what, you know, really from my Air Force time, when you're when you're challenged with a problem, you know, you pass off control to, to the other pilot, if you're the skipper and you take a second and really think about it. So, you know, I, I I'll tag out, you know, if it's a stressful bedtime because, you know, because they are.

00;24;46;06 - 00;25;10;13
Dave Andrews
But being aware of that and I think one thing that having well and being a parent makes me more aware of is, is how I react in stressful situations. And, you know, because you can hear him repeat the words that you might say, or the sounds that you might say, you know, you read the literature and you know that he's mimicking you and how he reacts in stressful situations.

00;25;10;15 - 00;25;26;07
Dave Andrews
So I think awareness and taking that step back is, is what helps. Again, I'm not always good at it. Most of the time I'm not you know, we're we're working 8020. We're 20% I'm okay at it an 80% I'm a complete failure. But that's a starting point right?

00;25;26;09 - 00;25;39;01
Paul Sullivan
Dave, thank you, for being on the Company of Dads podcast. This is amazing. I want to give you the final word and tell me, the best part for you about being a dad?

00;25;39;04 - 00;25;55;14
Dave Andrews
Just just seeing the dude every night, you know, every day comes from home, from daycare, you know, cooking dinner, garage door opens up, and I see that little face in the car as it's back in, in the garage. So, again, a bit romantic, because then you have to deal with it, but it's it's it's being present.

00;25;55;14 - 00;26;13;11
Dave Andrews
It's being aware. It's it's being a role model. It's being there. It's it's knowing that my son, when he's 25 or 30 or 40, will look back and, and sort of know that I, I hopefully made a, made a positive change in his life. Right.

00;26;13;14 - 00;26;16;04
Paul Sullivan
That's fantastic. Thank you again Dave. I really appreciate your time.

00;26;16;04 - 00;26;17;29
Dave Andrews
Thanks, Paul. I appreciate it too.

00;00;00;01 - 00;00;21;17
Speaker 1
I'm Paul Sullivan, your host on the Company of Dad podcast, where we explore the sweet, sublime, strange and silly aspects of being a lead D&D. In a world where men often feel they have to hide, or at least not talk about their parenting role. I know this from firsthand experience as a lead dad to my three girls, three dogs, three cats, and, somewhat remarkably, three fish who are still alive.

00;00;21;20 - 00;00;39;10
Speaker 1
I did this all while managing my career and striving to be an above average husband. One thing I know for sure about being a dad is it's not a normal role you're not doing with dads have traditionally done going to work and leaving the parenting to mom or someone else. Nor are you always welcome into the world where moms are the primary caregivers.

00;00;39;13 - 00;00;58;10
Speaker 1
But here at the Company of Dads, our goal is to shake all that off and to focus on what really matters family, friendship, finance, and fun. Today, my guest is Dave Andrews. After setting finance at the University of Ottawa. Dave found that what he really wanted to do was be a pilot. So he joined the Royal Canadian Air Force.

00;00;58;13 - 00;01;25;25
Speaker 1
Whereas air time ranged from transporting the prime minister to flying military operations and supporting humanitarian aid missions. He then went on to fly for Air Canada, where he flew Boeing's 737 Max in America, Europe and the Pacific. Today, Dave is the lead that role he took on during Covid. He worked for Transport Canada, the Canadian equivalent of the FAA in the US, and it has taken on the primary parent role to his toddler while his wife works as a physician.

00;01;25;27 - 00;01;28;18
Speaker 1
Welcome, Dave to the Comfort of Dads podcast.

00;01;28;20 - 00;01;38;21
Speaker 2
And thanks, Paul. Appreciate you having me here. It's, it's nice to connect with you. And, everything you spoke about in your intro is, was true.

00;01;38;23 - 00;01;39;09
Speaker 1
That's that's how I.

00;01;39;10 - 00;01;41;14
Speaker 2
Just appreciate it. Yeah. It's good.

00;01;41;17 - 00;01;55;22
Speaker 1
It's good. So, Dave, you and I met when? When, the final story I wrote ran in the New York Times, and you emailed me. And over the past, you know, several months we've been going back and forth, and I'm just. I'm really grateful that you've joined me today because I think you got a great story.

00;01;55;25 - 00;01;56;04
Speaker 2
Thanks.

00;01;56;05 - 00;02;04;00
Speaker 1
And if it's okay with you, you know, let's skip over the finance degree, okay? And get right. Yeah. You know.

00;02;04;02 - 00;02;09;02
Speaker 2
I agree. So is this four years of. Yeah. Let's get after it.

00;02;09;05 - 00;02;19;22
Speaker 1
You know, let's get right to the Royal Canadian Air Force. I mean that, yeah. Amazing. Did you always want to fly as a kid? No. You know what?

00;02;19;22 - 00;02;26;24
Speaker 2
I, Yeah. You know, growing up in the 80s, my parents let me watch Top Gun. So that kind of.

00;02;26;24 - 00;02;29;20
Speaker 1
I love Top Gun, so my daughter loves it, too.

00;02;29;23 - 00;02;50;14
Speaker 2
It's good. It's good. So that was always in the back of my mind. But no, I didn't. I, you know, my family was always. Education was always important. So, I decided to go to school and do a finance degree. Didn't really love it. Wasn't a passion. Kind of remembered that I like Top Gun. So I thought I'd give the Air Force a go.

00;02;51;18 - 00;03;09;12
Speaker 2
You know, made it through training, didn't didn't go the fighter pilot route ended up being, a transport pilot. Which was awesome. Let me see the world. So, flew around the world for seven years with the Air Force. Literally flew around the world. It was great. Great friends, great mentors, great bosses, great experiences.

00;03;10;16 - 00;03;16;07
Speaker 2
And then I had to make a decision. Do I stay, do I go? I left, went to work in industry. Hey.

00;03;16;08 - 00;03;19;29
Speaker 1
I'm sorry. We gotta go more. We gotta go more. Okay. All right, all right.

00;03;20;03 - 00;03;20;18
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;03;20;20 - 00;03;27;16
Speaker 1
There'll be plenty of time to talk about Boeing. And. Yeah, yeah. But, I mean, when you say. I mean, how many countries did you go to?

00;03;27;18 - 00;03;52;16
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, all the continents except for Antarctica. So we went, down to southern Argentina. Africa. So I know Argentina isn't a continent, but South America, the southern tip of South America, throughout Africa, Europe, Asia, throughout the Pacific, all throughout the States, you know, everybody, when we were operating through, through the continental US, it was fantastic to us.

00;03;52;16 - 00;03;55;01
Speaker 2
So, you know, everywhere. Everywhere.

00;03;55;04 - 00;03;58;28
Speaker 1
What were the what were the most what were some of the most memorable missions? Like some of them. Yeah.

00;03;58;28 - 00;04;21;06
Speaker 2
You know what? The challenging ones, I guess the challenging ones when you're operating with a friend, you know. And that was what was great about the Air Force for me is that, it was small, our unit was small, and I got to go and and work in stressful situations with some of my best friends. You know, an experience you don't have in high school or you don't have in university or college.

00;04;21;09 - 00;04;45;01
Speaker 2
So, yeah, you know, operating in those challenging environments, with, with passengers who have or clients who have tight timetables and important meetings or equipment and individuals who have to get to, to certain places, for certain reasons. So, yeah, the challenge of, of of working that out and not coming home and sleeping in your own bed and having those creature comforts at home.

00;04;45;02 - 00;04;49;23
Speaker 2
So it was great. It was it was a lot of fun. When you and I know that's very big.

00;04;49;26 - 00;04;51;18
Speaker 1
I know I,

00;04;51;20 - 00;04;53;14
Speaker 2
You know what I want, I want, I know.

00;04;53;16 - 00;04;57;01
Speaker 1
It's yeah, I know it's, you know, quick runway, touch and go.

00;04;57;08 - 00;04;59;05
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah.

00;04;59;07 - 00;05;00;23
Speaker 1
You're not allowed to say, is that it?

00;05;01;03 - 00;05;06;27
Speaker 2
It's not that. It's just sometimes those are. Those are stories for 20 or 30 years down the road. Right?

00;05;06;29 - 00;05;16;20
Speaker 1
You know, I have to ask, you know, in the United States and the president is on that Boeing, it is becomes Air Force One when you fly the Prime Minister. Do you have a certain call signal?

00;05;16;20 - 00;05;37;18
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah, it's a great question. Yeah. It's a call science. Can't force one so very similar. But, Canadian Air Force uses and this is open source that uses, can force call sign. So, the orders drive, the Prime Minister as, can force one. So, yeah, it's interesting, you know, as a young guy in my 20s, being able to operate with that callsign was a lot of fun.

00;05;38;23 - 00;05;40;02
Speaker 2
And when you take a getting.

00;05;40;04 - 00;05;49;27
Speaker 1
Getting chills, I'm getting tense. It's hard to tell that. I mean, that is so cool. Like, you're you're, you know, coming in for a landing and you're like, you know, call in the tower, and I just can't force one.

00;05;49;27 - 00;06;11;06
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. It's fine. And again, it's it's different. Yeah. It's good. I mean, even operating down into the DC area. So, into Joint Base Andrews, you know, operating in there with can't force one call sign, for, Leaders summit. Really interesting work. And, you know, when you take a step back and as you age, you become wiser.

00;06;11;06 - 00;06;26;00
Speaker 2
I think. And you don't realize, you know, at the time when you're young, the pressure and the implications of the job you have, you know, and you're just one cog in the wheel, you know, I'm just a guy that goes to work and drives a bus with wings, right? You know, you're you're.

00;06;26;02 - 00;06;27;15
Speaker 1
A prime minister. You know.

00;06;27;17 - 00;06;44;24
Speaker 2
You're part of the team. No, no, but, you know, there's there's so many pieces here that it's not just me, but. Yeah, you know, looking back, it was it was really interesting work. And, yeah, it was it was a great chapter. Right. And again, you know, maybe I'll highlight the one point and yeah, it was cool.

00;06;44;24 - 00;07;04;12
Speaker 2
The people in the back and, and the things and the places. But what was important to me was my friendship, which I still have, you know, one of the guys I, I flew with, on Squadron stood up at my wedding, and those are friendships and that I'll take with me forever. And they're they're great, you know, great bros.

00;07;04;15 - 00;07;21;05
Speaker 2
And at the time, it was all men at the squadron, but great people that, you know, you go in and out of each other's lives, you know, it doesn't have to be every week. Every month. It's it's it's yearly. But you just you reconnect because you have that common experience. And I'm sure that translates across, you know, any job, any experience.

00;07;21;05 - 00;07;38;01
Speaker 2
You know, it's like you in your world with journalism, you can reconnect with someone from a decade ago and it's like it was yesterday. So it's yeah, it was good. It was just good times. But the people that the people that I got to work with versus the people in the back was, was, what I really took away from those experiences.

00;07;38;08 - 00;07;43;08
Speaker 1
I don't want to come across as too much of a fanboy here, but did you did you also get, like, a cool name yourself? Like.

00;07;43;12 - 00;07;44;05
Speaker 2
No.

00;07;44;07 - 00;07;44;28
Speaker 1
That's a no.

00;07;44;28 - 00;08;06;04
Speaker 2
No, that's no, that's a fighter pilot thing. And, you know, that's a that's a I respect that world. I never I never went down that route. But now Dave, Dave, was it because, you know, I'm sure if there are, guys or girls from the transport world listening to this or from the non fighter pilot world, you know, they'll know what I'm talking about.

00;08;06;04 - 00;08;11;19
Speaker 2
But that's, I think that's, a tradition, from a different, from a different world, which I'm not a part of.

00;08;11;22 - 00;08;28;07
Speaker 1
So you think about, you know, when I introduce you, there's really. It was a range of of flights that you were, were on, you know, from against the transfer of the prime minister to a humanitarian aid mission. Who, who? Yeah. Who's that for? You? How would you know? Yeah. Hey. It's Monday, this is what I'm going to do today.

00;08;28;08 - 00;08;46;25
Speaker 2
Well, you don't we, you know, we day to day and that that's that was what was hard about that that world. And if, if people are listening who are living in that world, they'll understand that struggle. It's, it's a bit exhausting, you know, it's it's it's literally 24 over seven and you don't know, where are you going to be tomorrow?

00;08;46;25 - 00;09;04;01
Speaker 2
And I and I, that sounds very romantic. And it's it is, but it's not after a couple of years. But. Yeah, it's it's, you don't know, and it just comes down in terms of high level, who has to go where and what are the priorities. So, yeah, that was a bit, tiring. You know, I did that for seven years.

00;09;04;23 - 00;09;20;06
Speaker 2
And not knowing where you're going to be tomorrow, if you're going to be home or if you're going to be home for a birthday or can I go out for dinner on the weekend, I don't know. So that answer kind of was one of the reasons that drove me to sort of more stability and industry. And here we are.

00;09;20;17 - 00;09;26;03
Speaker 1
Yeah. But yeah, yeah, Segway into that, segway into the decision, you know, after, what, seven years? I think you said.

00;09;26;07 - 00;09;27;26
Speaker 2
Yeah, seven years. Go to.

00;09;27;28 - 00;09;30;12
Speaker 1
Canada to. Yeah. Make the transition.

00;09;30;14 - 00;09;54;28
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's great. I mean, again, you know, my contract was coming due, and you have to make a decision and, and I wanted, you know, I was still in my early 30s. I didn't have a family yet. I wanted to still operate airplanes. You know, that's that's what I love to do. I loved, you know, executing on a plan and coming home and feeling like you've accomplished something in that day.

00;09;54;28 - 00;10;15;28
Speaker 2
Right. So transition to Air Canada. I went through the application process, which was nerve wracking. You know, it's like any job interview process, nothing's a guarantee. So, I got hired on and and went through their indoctrination program and, and ended up on the 737 max, which is pretty neat. You know, new machine in general.

00;10;16;28 - 00;10;39;06
Speaker 2
New machine to the airline. Got to go through their training system, training programs. It was really great. And the network that it was flying was, was a lot of fun, you know, as a narrowbody, sort of what is typically a transcontinental jet that stays, stays in sort of North America, continental US, Caribbean. We were operating over to London Heathrow, over the North Atlantic.

00;10;39;06 - 00;11;01;15
Speaker 2
We were operating to, Maui, to a Wahoo. So that was really fun. You know, my first, Christmas at the airline, I was, I did three Maui's in a London and a 20 day span. So, you know, a four day pairing home for a day, four day pairing home for a day. But, yeah, it was tiring, right?

00;11;01;17 - 00;11;09;24
Speaker 1
I mean, come on, with all due respect, with all due respect to the the prime minister fly in Hawaii, getting the layover. That that sounds pretty nice.

00;11;09;26 - 00;11;31;23
Speaker 2
That's good. No complaints. Right. And again, just to reiterate, reiterate, you know, I was the first officer in that world, so it was, Yeah, it was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. And another really interesting chapter. And, I'm not sure if I've closed the book on that one yet, but, life's good as it is, right now in terms of having flexibility to to be a dad.

00;11;31;23 - 00;11;51;26
Speaker 1
For any, sort of airplane enthusiasts. Listen to this. You know, the Boeing 737 Max had such great promise when it came out, and it was a really bumpy rollout. They had all kinds of issues with the mechanics. Couple of them. What was when you were would you read those news reports and hear the struggles that people were having with that particular aircraft?

00;11;51;26 - 00;11;57;21
Speaker 1
What was your own, you know, personal, experience with the 737 Max?

00;11;57;23 - 00;12;14;29
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, I, I trust in, I trusted in the regulator, I trusted in the company and the decisions they were making. So, I don't think you're going to get a lot out of me. I tend to stay in in lane and scope. In terms of opinions. So, yeah, you know, it was it was stressful times.

00;12;15;02 - 00;12;37;17
Speaker 2
No one knew what was happening. At, at my level, you know, day to day, minute to minute. But I think, as an employee, my company treated me well, kept me in the loop, like, management kept us in the loop. So I don't really have too much to say about that. No. Yeah. The Boeing or the Max, other than, you know, I enjoyed I enjoyed my time on it, and I enjoyed flying it.

00;12;37;17 - 00;12;42;23
Speaker 2
And it's pretty cool to see, you know. 737 Max in the logbook, right? It's a good story.

00;12;42;26 - 00;12;47;00
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. And touching down in Hawaii or touching down in London? Yeah.

00;12;47;04 - 00;12;51;09
Speaker 2
That's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah. It's fun right? It's fun. That's good times. Yeah.

00;12;51;12 - 00;12;55;20
Speaker 1
I guess there's no hazing where you had to fly to some, like, regional airport, in Canada. Wow.

00;12;55;20 - 00;12;56;17
Speaker 2
Like, yeah.

00;12;56;17 - 00;12;59;03
Speaker 1
Like Kansas City or something like that.

00;12;59;06 - 00;13;15;11
Speaker 2
I'd say. Yeah. You know, I'd say I was lucky in the past, you know, and I, luck in hard work, but, you know, lucky in the path that I chose and that I was able to go on in terms of going to the Air Force and then going to a major Canadian airline. Not everybody has that path.

00;13;15;11 - 00;13;27;19
Speaker 2
A lot of people have to go, fly up north. You know, you work your way through the different carriers, but but I'd say it was I was very lucky with with the experience I had in aviation and continue to have in aviation.

00;13;27;22 - 00;13;39;25
Speaker 1
Yeah. Now we're gonna talk about we're here to talk about you being a dad, but yeah, between between flying a plane and being a dad. You must have met your wife. So where where did we. You still a pilot when you matter.

00;13;39;28 - 00;13;44;04
Speaker 2
When did you actually, we met back at. We met back in high school, so I met back in high school.

00;13;44;04 - 00;13;49;28
Speaker 1
So the whole time you're flying in the in the Royal Canadian Air Force, you were together. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. She was going.

00;13;50;04 - 00;14;15;06
Speaker 2
Through. Oh, that's a great question. Let me run the numbers. Just about seven years, but we've been together, you know, close to 20. So since our late teens. So yeah. So we we were together through university through and through her med school, through my Air Force training. So lots of change, lots of struggle. But, she's a pretty awesome woman.

00;14;15;27 - 00;14;32;17
Speaker 2
I know everybody says they're lucky, but, you know, when you're having conversations with people you don't know, you know, who aren't your family or your close friends, you really you really think about how lucky you are to have a partner in this game. Like, like I do. So I'm, I'm just a shout out to my wife.

00;14;32;19 - 00;14;33;14
Speaker 1
I love it. Go ahead.

00;14;33;14 - 00;14;34;24
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;14;34;27 - 00;14;52;13
Speaker 1
And so. So she was there with you guys. You're flying all over the world. But of course, you're, you know, you're kind of your young kids, and like you said, she's she's in medical school. You're flying around. But at what point does it seem like. Okay, you know, maybe we need to make, a shift here. Is it when your your son is born or to talk to me about.

00;14;52;13 - 00;15;22;16
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. The, you know, I, I left the Air Force going to the airlines thinking I wanted to fly. Fly forever. And then, you know, I think, my role in this, in this partnership, my awareness of what I, my role had to be really stemmed from Covid and the birth of my son. So, you know, up in Canada a lot, a lot shut down, you know, the hospitals where, you know, the birth wasn't what we expected in terms of my role in it.

00;15;22;29 - 00;15;41;06
Speaker 2
And, and, so that that, you know, I don't want to say disappointing because he's healthy. He's happy. That's all that matters, but not what you expected. Right. And then and then the industry took a bit of a downturn, and I really had to try and figure out, how was I going to be a father?

00;15;41;06 - 00;16;03;10
Speaker 2
Because I wanted to play a role and and support, my wife, my family, my child, but but stay in aviation. So I actually, took a leave from the company from the Air Canada flight back to the Air Force. Worked some project work, as a reservist in the Air Force. And then I found an opportunity with Transport Canada.

00;16;03;25 - 00;16;28;12
Speaker 2
A friend, sent me, a job posting, and I applied and interviewed and and and I'm grateful to have, had that opportunity and to have the opportunity to work with the organization I'm working at now. So, so it's, it's multifaceted to to come back to your question, it's, it's Covid and, and my son actually being my son and not just, you know, the being right.

00;16;28;12 - 00;17;01;11
Speaker 2
So, yeah, a bit of a struggle to make that change. You know, you have these, these romantic ideas of what you want to do for your career or your life, but then things change and you have to roll with that change. And I think with the support of my wife, she helped me sort of change roles from being a person who was focused on that operation, all level of work to to build out the skill set and go back to my finance degree and build out those skill sets, and to be able to play a bigger role in, in, in a different organization.

00;17;02;06 - 00;17;24;14
Speaker 2
But again, you know, what does the future hold? I don't know. We'll see. You know, we'll see. We'll see how this folds out. We'll see. You know, does our family get bigger? Yeah, it's multifaceted. But to be able to again, I know I'm lucky, but to be able to build on skill sets that the Air Force gave me and my eye undergraduate degree gave me, I'm grateful for that and opportunity.

00;17;24;16 - 00;17;30;20
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, you pivot it, you pivoted, but you pivoted within your your field. You're still in aviation. You're just doing something. Yeah.

00;17;31;05 - 00;17;57;16
Speaker 2
Aviation and and, you know, showed it, to the Air Force is they, they really build, build a well-rounded individual. You know, you really have time to think about the skills, the, and the awareness and the responsibility they gave you. So that I think is really helped, as an individual who's institute has tried to pivot away from ops into into a bigger, bigger sort of broader job.

00;17;57;18 - 00;18;01;02
Speaker 2
Yeah. Not not on the flight deck. Right. Sure.

00;18;01;04 - 00;18;09;27
Speaker 1
Let's get a little granular here, because, yeah, I think the pivot is something that, a lot of listeners might really, appreciate hearing about so that your son is 20 months, right? Is that.

00;18;09;27 - 00;18;10;25
Speaker 2
Correct? Yes. Yeah.

00;18;10;25 - 00;18;31;00
Speaker 1
That's great. Let me do some, simple, ninth grade, arithmetic here. Your wife's pregnant for more or less nine months. That's 29, right? At what point in that, you know, sort of two and a half year period. Did the two of you start having the conversation about, How are we gonna what are we going to do when our son is born?

00;18;31;04 - 00;18;33;08
Speaker 1
Who is going to be the lead dad who's career?

00;18;33;11 - 00;19;02;14
Speaker 2
Yeah. So that's, that's a great question, Paul. And, you know, all along the plan was for me to be gone 18 days a month. So from day one through pregnancy up until, you know, well, came into our lives, the plan was for me to to be gone and be a pilot and live that world. So we we planned based on that in terms of parental, parental leave, which is different up here.

00;19;03;06 - 00;19;43;16
Speaker 2
And, and child care etc., etc.. So, so really the pivot came with Covid and me realizing my responsibilities and realizing so realizing that, you know, it's not the same for everybody. I'm not here to preach, to tell people this is what I'm doing and this is the right way. And I don't want it to be interpreted as that, but based on our circumstances and and the profession that my wife has chosen and the responsibilities and the time that takes, I really had to take a step back and realize, you know, maybe that dream, and the romance of, of to me, being an airline pilot, maybe that doesn't fit into what we need.

00;19;43;19 - 00;20;06;16
Speaker 2
So she never and I'm again, I'll loop it back to to I am a lucky man to have, partner in my life like Stephanie. She never pushed me down that road. She let me drive it to sort of bring it into the lead, dad. Or, you know, lead dad or being a more present parent, and being home.

00;20;06;22 - 00;20;17;09
Speaker 2
Right. So she never pushed that. It was. It was driven by me, but supported by her. So that's kind of how we came to that. I'm not sure if we got to the to the nitty gritty on that one.

00;20;17;11 - 00;20;23;20
Speaker 1
That's all right. So was your son born when you left, Air Canada or. Yeah.

00;20;23;20 - 00;20;44;19
Speaker 2
Yeah, he was. So he was, he's an April baby. And then, I, I took a leave from the company in the summertime, so, you know, it was it was the birth. It was that, you know, you you can plan, but whether or not you execute on that plan is different, right? So we planned and then reality happened and we had to shift.

00;20;44;19 - 00;20;59;02
Speaker 2
So so yeah, Will was around and I realized I wanted I wanted to be home, I needed to be home. And I had you know, I had the means to do that. So that's, you know, it's not for everybody, but but that's kind of the direction we took it. Right?

00;20;59;05 - 00;21;08;24
Speaker 1
But also, is it fair to say that your wife is a physician? Maybe she had less control over her schedule, unless you had a bit more control to sort of make this pivot. Is that fair?

00;21;08;24 - 00;21;28;20
Speaker 2
Exactly. Oh, for sure. And and, you know, you, you take a step back and you think about, especially during, the pandemic, the role that she was playing was was very important, too. And again, I'm not here to say, you know, Saint I'm a savior. But, you know, you really have to take a step back and think about the bigger picture.

00;21;29;20 - 00;22;04;06
Speaker 2
From our family unit perspective, and, yeah, she, she did have a less flexible job and less flexible opportunity. And if you look back at, you know, the partnerships of 40, 50, 60 years ago, it's kind of flipped in terms of the breadwinner, too. So, you know, not to talk income, but, but that, that decided, you know, 30, 40 years ago who stayed home and, and, that sort of, pushed me to maybe revisit my career choices to enable me to be home, because it wasn't just wasn't just me that was providing.

00;22;04;09 - 00;22;18;28
Speaker 1
Right? I get a day. This is the same situation. Yeah. Yeah, I'm in that I've been in for 13 years that I wrote about in the The New York Times, but I always figure, like, instead of, like, forcing it and saying, okay, well, I'm still the man I need to go out and just say, like, you know what?

00;22;19;00 - 00;22;32;11
Speaker 1
We're a partnership. And if we're going to be a partnership, one of us is going to be the lead parent. You can be a dad, you can be the lead mom. But in the case of you and me, we're really dads. And yeah, I don't know. I mean, I find it, I can't even, I think, more rewarding and to, to balance everything.

00;22;33;01 - 00;22;59;08
Speaker 1
But I have to ask you in terms of. Yeah, you know, you must have been in some pretty hairy situations which you're not going to tell me for 20 years, in the Air Force, but I can you know, romanticize it. You know, I sure, I've, I've seen enough Jerry Bruckheimer movies to understand how you're coming in and all that, but when you think of, like, you know, the craziest hairiest day you had in the Air Force and then compare it to the day at home when you're trying to organize everything with a really serious day job.

00;22;59;08 - 00;23;22;06
Speaker 1
Let's be honest, if Covid allows certain among us to work from home, but you are working for transfer again, that's a serious, a day job. Yet your son is absolutely going bonkers. Like losing his shit. What have you. What would you have taken from that time in the Air Force of of managing a stressful situation and related to being a dad in parenting?

00;23;22;06 - 00;23;25;04
Speaker 1
So I think that's something that the listeners might, might benefit from.

00;23;25;08 - 00;23;36;17
Speaker 2
Yeah. You know. Yeah for sure. And again, maybe I'll I'll start this with, you know, it's a partnership too. I, I don't want to say that I'm here and I take the brunt of the childcare.

00;23;36;21 - 00;23;47;02
Speaker 1
Don't be so self-effacing. I don't want to be. I'm going to say, like, you know, the Prime Minister had 17 cocktails in the back, and I'm trying to land in Kuala Lumpur in the dark and, you know,

00;23;47;04 - 00;24;17;23
Speaker 2
Yeah, Kuala Lumpur. That was actually a great spot. But, yeah. You know, it's, this is more stressful than any day I had. And being a parent, being frustrated, at bedtime because, you know, you can't communicate effectively. There's no effective communication. There's no level of career resource management or human performance in military aviation training that can help you really communicate with a 20 month old.

00;24;18;22 - 00;24;46;06
Speaker 2
So, you know, taking time, taking a step back and taking, I think, is what, you know, really from my Air Force time, when you're when you're challenged with a problem, you know, you pass off control to, to the other pilot, if you're the skipper and you take a second and really think about it. So, you know, I, I I'll tag out, you know, if it's a stressful bedtime because, you know, because they are.

00;24;46;06 - 00;25;10;13
Speaker 2
But being aware of that and I think one thing that having well and being a parent makes me more aware of is, is how I react in stressful situations. And, you know, because you can hear him repeat the words that you might say, or the sounds that you might say, you know, you read the literature and you know that he's mimicking you and how he reacts in stressful situations.

00;25;10;15 - 00;25;26;07
Speaker 2
So I think awareness and taking that step back is, is what helps. Again, I'm not always good at it. Most of the time I'm not you know, we're we're working 8020. We're 20% I'm okay at it an 80% I'm a complete failure. But that's a starting point right?

00;25;26;09 - 00;25;39;01
Speaker 1
Dave, thank you, for being on the Company of Dads podcast. This is amazing. I want to give you the final word and tell me, the best part for you about being a dad?

00;25;39;04 - 00;25;55;14
Speaker 2
Just just seeing the dude every night, you know, every day comes from home, from daycare, you know, cooking dinner, garage door opens up, and I see that little face in the car as it's back in, in the garage. So, again, a bit romantic, because then you have to deal with it, but it's it's it's being present.

00;25;55;14 - 00;26;13;11
Speaker 2
It's being aware. It's it's being a role model. It's being there. It's it's knowing that my son, when he's 25 or 30 or 40, will look back and, and sort of know that I, I hopefully made a, made a positive change in his life. Right.

00;26;13;14 - 00;26;16;04
Speaker 1
That's fantastic. Thank you again Dave. I really appreciate your time.

00;26;16;04 - 00;26;17;29
Speaker 2
Thanks, Paul. I appreciate it too.