EP12: Prepping Lead Dads To Be Ready From The Start

Interview with Keegan Albaugh / Founder of Dad Guild, Educator, Lead Dad

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

Keegan Albaugh readily admits that his wife, a grad student and stand-up comic, pushed him into starting what became Dad Guild. But after he gathered with a handful of other new fathers in Burlington, Vermont, he realized what he was striving to do was no joke. Normalizing fathers taking care of their babies was serious business. Tons of funny moments ensued along the way. Imagine a gaggle of dads with babies strapped to their chests walking through a park – the reactions were more akin to seeing a Hell’s Angels parade than watching parents care for newborns. Albaugh has built Dad Guild into a network of 500-plus fathers around Vermont and he is partnering with national organizations to spread what they’re doing for new parents. Hear how he has brought new dads out of their shells and helped them overcome basic fears and anxieties around being a Lead Dad to their young children.

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Transcript

00;00;04;01 - 00;00;24;10
Paul Sullivan
I'm Paul Sullivan, your host of the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, sublime, strange and silly aspects of being a dad in a world where men often feel they have to hide, or at least not talk about their parenting role. I know this from firsthand experience as the lead dad to my three girls, three dogs, three cats, and somewhat remarkably, three fish.

00;00;24;11 - 00;00;42;25
Paul Sullivan
I did this all while managing my career and striving to be an above average husband. One thing I know for sure about being a dad is it's not a normal role. You're not doing what dads have traditionally done. Going to work and leaving the parenting to mom or someone else. Nor are you always welcome into the world where moms are the primary caregivers.

00;00;42;27 - 00;01;04;25
Paul Sullivan
But here at the Company of Dads, our goal is to shake all that off and focus on what really matters. Family, friendship, finance and fun. Today my guest is Keegan Albaugh. Keegan is the executive director of Dad Guilt, a nonprofit based in Burlington, Vermont. It's a group that has the second best logo in the dad space, after the company dad, of course.

00;01;04;27 - 00;01;36;16
Paul Sullivan
Keegan started the organization in 2018. Its mission is to support and empower fathers by offering opportunities for connection, education and community engagement. Recently, Keegan went from the volunteer president to the Paid Executive Director, a real testament to the organization's growth. There's a funny line in his LinkedIn announcement that we can all identify with as dads. We've gone, it says, from a handful of dads meeting awkwardly at a local playground to a network of over 500 Vermont fathers of young children.

00;01;36;18 - 00;01;40;16
Paul Sullivan
Keegan, welcome to the Company of Dads podcast. How are you today?

00;01;40;19 - 00;01;42;21
Keegan Albaugh
Pretty good. Thanks for having me on here.

00;01;42;21 - 00;01;47;07
Paul Sullivan
Both. Yeah. Good. Start off. First question. How did you get into the dad biz?

00;01;47;09 - 00;01;53;03
Keegan Albaugh
How'd I get into the dad biz? You mean, like actually becoming a dad or, like, starting,

00;01;53;05 - 00;02;04;21
Paul Sullivan
Well, we all know how that works. We've all had high school biology. We know how you actually become a dad. I mean, the actual dad biz. You have the. You have two kids. How did that lead to starting the dad field?

00;02;04;24 - 00;02;15;04
Keegan Albaugh
Yeah. It actually, it all started out. My partner, she was participating in, like, a postpartum yoga group, and they had a son.

00;02;15;08 - 00;02;19;13
Paul Sullivan
And you try to get into the postpartum yoga group, and they wouldn't let you in. Is that it?

00;02;19;15 - 00;02;42;26
Keegan Albaugh
You know, I, as far as I know, like, anyone can show up. I think I just, I was, I did not have a lot of leave from my work, so I was, I was at work. But my my son, my partner was, attending a group there, and they also had a just support group for, for new moms and the, the yoga instructor offered, like, hey, if anyone knows a dad who would want to facilitate a group for new dads, we'd love to have one.

00;02;42;27 - 00;03;10;25
Keegan Albaugh
And my partner asked me and I was like, yes, that sounds great. I will, I'm I'm all about talking about like feelings, being vulnerable and just like creating spaces for dads to get together and, and yeah, so from there, I just like, you know, I facilitated this group of like, it was seven guys for like six months, and it was great because the first after like that, the first session, I asked everyone like, hey, why are you here?

00;03;10;27 - 00;03;27;26
Keegan Albaugh
And like, every dude was like, oh, because my wife made me. And I was like, I was like, oh no, this is not good. But then after six months, we met once a month. After six months, people were like, hey, I want to keep going. Like, how do what do we do? How do we keep this going?

00;03;27;26 - 00;03;32;28
Keegan Albaugh
And that's when I was like, oh, this is something like, there needs to be more of this. So what do we do?

00;03;33;00 - 00;03;52;29
Paul Sullivan
You know, you just said, you know, you're all the feelings you all about being vulnerable to things always associated with men. Oh, wait. No, that's not true. Two things not always associated with men. So what is it about sort of your background or your wiring or your DNA that that, you know, allows you to put yourself out there like that and, and want to bring, you know, other dads along?

00;03;53;02 - 00;04;10;26
Keegan Albaugh
Yeah. You know, I think there's a there's a handful of factors there. I think part of it is, you know, I'm raised I was, you know, fortunate. You know, very loving family. My parents were, are fantastic people still live in New Hampshire to this day. But I just grew up in a very loving household.

00;04;10;28 - 00;04;34;19
Keegan Albaugh
I watched a lot of TGIF and, you know, shows like full House and, like, oh, like, hug it out. You know, that's that's what you do. And and I and then from there, you know, growing up, I got into the world of education and was really drawn to working with kids in particular and like, teenagers and just like, really enjoyed, conversations and kids opening up.

00;04;34;19 - 00;04;55;11
Keegan Albaugh
So I just, I kind of really fell in love with that work. And then, yeah, I worked in non-profits for the past, like 15 to 20 years. And, yeah, I think, but I think mostly I've just been really fortunate to have always been surrounded by a community of people who, you know, accept, have accepted me for who I am.

00;04;55;17 - 00;05;00;26
Keegan Albaugh
And I haven't really felt too much of a need to, like, put up the mask or or hide.

00;05;00;28 - 00;05;18;12
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. When that that is first meeting that you had this first six months with those dads that came out of the yoga group, was that did you immediately form the dad guild, or did that come later on when you realized there was more of a critical mass, or you saw other things that might be needed in in your state?

00;05;18;14 - 00;05;40;00
Keegan Albaugh
Yeah, that that came later on. I think, you know, after we had, and I started it was nine months, so it's nine months long after we had, that group meet. When I, when people were asking like, hey, how do we want, we want to keep this going. And I, you know, recognize that, gosh, there really isn't a strong fatherhood community in Burlington, Vermont, or, you know, Vermont overall.

00;05;40;03 - 00;05;58;05
Keegan Albaugh
And so at that point, I sent an email out to, like all the dads of young kids that I knew. So there's like three dozen dads. And I was like, hey, the next three Tuesdays, I'm going to be down at the Skinny Pancake in Burlington and come for a drink, get some fries, and, you know, I want to pick everyone's brains.

00;05;58;05 - 00;06;14;04
Keegan Albaugh
Like, so I came with like, some questions for folks of like, hey, you know, you you've been a dad. Like, what have you seen as far as community? Where do you go for support? What would you like to see? What ideas do you have? And just kind of like really picked people's brains over the course of three weeks for whoever could show up.

00;06;14;07 - 00;06;36;09
Keegan Albaugh
And then from there it got like a pretty clear like, oh, like, there seems to be consensus around like, guys looking to do fun things with each other and with their kids. And so where do we go from there? And then that's when I sat down with, one of our, founding board members to kind of be like, hey, like, what's research, what's out there and what's kind of like, see what models are, what we're trying to achieve.

00;06;36;09 - 00;06;38;27
Keegan Albaugh
And let's just like, let's just go for it.

00;06;39;04 - 00;06;56;10
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. In those early meetings, you know, obviously getting together, you'd say French fries and a beer. That's pretty, you know, it's a good way to get people to come down. But what was the feedback. What were, you know with these dads at all different stages or what did you find that they, they craved the most, or at least they told you they crave the most?

00;06;56;12 - 00;07;26;05
Keegan Albaugh
Yeah, I think most. So most of the guys that I had invited were just like people in my social network. So there are people who I would say all the kids were like ages three and younger. So it's all guys who are like pretty much in it. And I would say like the answers that I got from folks, there was a lot of excitement around like events for dads, like things to do for like dads themselves and also dads with their kids.

00;07;26;08 - 00;07;41;16
Keegan Albaugh
And so there definitely seemed to be a lot of interest around like, hey, yeah, there's not really any groups or things going on. I would love, like, events to take my kid to, to like, be around other dads. You know, guys, I don't think guys were coming out and being like, I really want more dad friends like that.

00;07;41;18 - 00;07;50;27
Keegan Albaugh
We didn't quite get there. But, you know, I think, I think there's some underlying messages there that, you know, folks may not be saying, but, I think I hear what they're really saying.

00;07;50;29 - 00;08;03;11
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. When you thought about, you know, some of those early events that you had that came out of that meeting, what were the ones that were the most successful, either by attendance or probably more tellingly, by feedback afterwards?

00;08;03;14 - 00;08;23;25
Keegan Albaugh
Yeah, I think like the ones that were the most successful early on because like, you know, as you mentioned earlier, an introduction like, you know, we were we were we've been volunteer run for, gosh, over three years. And like, I just stepped into a ten hour week director position in January of this year. So it's been really like we don't have any money.

00;08;23;25 - 00;08;42;21
Keegan Albaugh
We don't really, you know, we're not advertising. It's like, how do we how do we do this? And so it was a lot of like social media marketing and just kind of like making some fliers and posting them up. I would say early on, some like playground play groups like those, you know, early on we'd have like, you know, a few, you know, if like a few guys showed up at the same time to the same playground.

00;08;42;21 - 00;09;05;24
Keegan Albaugh
Like, that was pretty successful. And then our dads night out events, that was one that like, you know, I think early on we were doing, like, we play, like, retro video games at a local brewery. And like, you might have, like, you know, ten guys show up and it was so rad because you'd have like, ten guys show up and, you know, under the, under the safety of playing beer, drinking beer and playing video games when in reality they get there.

00;09;05;24 - 00;09;21;26
Keegan Albaugh
And yes, they're doing those things. But then you see, like, you know, circle of three guys talking about sleep struggles. You see like a circle of three guys talking about how it works that are really challenging lately. And you're like, okay, cool. Like you came here and now and now you're talking about other stuff like, yep, this is awesome.

00;09;21;29 - 00;09;45;09
Paul Sullivan
Was there a certain point where you laid a structure on to what Dad Guild was, was trying to do, or did you just have you left it, you know, Freeform just as a way to sort of convene, you know dads throughout Vermont and and let them come together whether as you said, they want to drink some beer and play video games or they want to talk, you know, more seriously about things they could say they're struggling with or they need to learn about us as dads.

00;09;45;12 - 00;10;08;10
Keegan Albaugh
I think that things have been kind of coming up and being created pretty organically. I think we've one I think early on we were kind of like, hey, let's just start putting some events together and see what appeals to people. And then, you know, as we became a nonprofit organization and we have a board, then we really started to kind of be a bit more strategic, kind of like, hey, like, what is our overall vision here?

00;10;08;12 - 00;10;25;17
Keegan Albaugh
What are some of our like, you know, what are some of our goals for our for our three year plan and kind of coming up with some more specific, you know, a more specific strategy for what we were trying to accomplish and then making sure what programs and activities that we were planning were in alignment with those pieces.

00;10;25;19 - 00;10;55;17
Keegan Albaugh
And then the other, piece I was going to say, is that kind of recognizing, since we are, you know, we're really this small grassroots community organization as you kind of start to see, like, okay, you know, the guys who are showing up, like, what are you hearing? What are people looking for? And then, you know, for example, like, we didn't we didn't intentionally didn't create a, like a community peer support group like that where you're just kind of sitting around and talking right away, recognizing that like, hey, like maybe we're not quite there yet.

00;10;55;17 - 00;11;14;20
Keegan Albaugh
But as we started to notice, more and more dads kind of, advocate for that, or you'd hear them sharing things that you're like, wow, you really need this other kind of space that we got to a point where, you know, we've created like a really intentional, like peer support, campfire group that meets once a month and really, like, has way more intentional structure around sharing and being vulnerable.

00;11;14;22 - 00;11;35;25
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. And one of my early podcasts, I talked to Phil and and Brad clot to to lead to what I call the dad is also a financial psychologist and he talks about the power of role models for for men, for fathers. And, you know, in his own life when he was living in Hawaii, which would sound pretty sweet to me, being a psychologist, but he didn't have there weren't a lot of role models.

00;11;35;25 - 00;12;08;05
Paul Sullivan
It's a very traditional culture, he found where, you know, women did certain things and ended other things. Now he lives in Boulder, Colorado, and they're dads everywhere, you know, out with with their kids. And he feels like it's, you know, it's a much better place to be to sort of, you know, be out there as, as the primary parent and not to the company of dads is trying to do trying to normalize met being the primary parent, did you find, you know, with your the meetings you're having when you're bringing people together with the dad, Gil, that you were serving as sort of, you know, role models for each other and that and that those

00;12;08;05 - 00;12;16;11
Paul Sullivan
guys who are coming week after week that they almost served as sort of evangelist for, for the dad cause in, in Vermont.

00;12;16;14 - 00;12;39;01
Keegan Albaugh
Oh yeah, I would it's, it's so funny like because I think they're, you know, there's a lot of dads out there who I think are like, you know, they're doing the stuff they're they're parenting, they're doing the work life balance. They're with the partner. But there's not. Historically, there hasn't been a lot of community or like groups for those individuals.

00;12;39;03 - 00;13;02;11
Keegan Albaugh
And so but, you know, we see a lot of that with, with mothers or people who give birth that, you know, you see it, you it's in your face a lot more. And, you know, what I have found is that it's so interesting when you get like five guys together pushing strollers through a park and like, talking like people stop dead in their tracks and they turn and they're like, what's going on?

00;13;02;11 - 00;13;25;18
Keegan Albaugh
And you're like, wow. Like it's in that. But like, that's the work. You know? That's when you start recognizing like, hey, like, what are we doing when we create, you know, we're doing a dad guilt event. It's not just creating a space for men to come together and talk. When you have five guys like carrying, wearing babies, walking through a park and people are like, people are stopping and turning and asking so many questions.

00;13;25;18 - 00;13;31;25
Paul Sullivan
It's like, do they get nervous? Or are you like the Hells Angels of Burlington, Vermont? Like the strollers.

00;13;31;28 - 00;13;54;01
Keegan Albaugh
That that's, yeah, that's exactly the identity of like, for Daniel, the Hells Angels of Vermont. No. I get super excited because I'm just like, you know, I think, it's so I at first I would find it really interesting that people were noticing that, that they were like, that's like, whoa, this is this is so weird and unusual that I have to go to this.

00;13;54;06 - 00;14;09;19
Keegan Albaugh
I have to go comments and like, have to like, make sure. Is there something going on that I didn't know about? And at first I was like, I first I get kind of annoyed that like, oh my gosh, like, this is this is why we're doing this. But then like after a while you're like, oh, this is why we're doing this.

00;14;09;19 - 00;14;24;12
Keegan Albaugh
And like this, there is such a value for people to just to like that modeling piece. You said that, when you, when you're walking around, you know, engaging with your kids for people to see that and be like, oh, like, that's really awesome.

00;14;24;14 - 00;14;37;01
Paul Sullivan
Now, any any moms or listen to this will be furious, because this is kind of an further testament to just how low the bar is for a dad. You're like, he's pushing the stroller. He's he's carrying his own.

00;14;37;03 - 00;14;37;26
Keegan Albaugh
In a Baby.

00;14;37;26 - 00;14;41;01
Paul Sullivan
Bjorn like. And he gets credit for that.

00;14;41;04 - 00;15;00;22
Keegan Albaugh
Oh yeah. Dude, the bar is so low it's ridiculous. And it's like, I, you know, I'm a I'm a columnist for a newspaper up here in Vermont for kids Vermont and like, and I was I wrote a piece about that a while ago around how how low the bar is for, for men. And you're totally right where like, for mothers.

00;15;00;22 - 00;15;10;03
Keegan Albaugh
Like, I could see where it's really infuriating, where it's like, yeah, you. Hey, guys. Pushing a kid through the park. Everyone's like, wow, good job. And you're like, this is ridiculous. Why he didn't.

00;15;10;03 - 00;15;14;08
Paul Sullivan
Fall out of the stroller. You knew how to put the straps on. That is amazing.

00;15;14;10 - 00;15;35;05
Keegan Albaugh
Yeah, we talked about this a lot. A decade where it's just like. And and the reality is it's like that people are giving that kind of reaction. That's where we are in that our work, part of our work is to like, to get to a point where it's people don't feel the need to comment, or it can just be like, oh, yeah, that person's just doing what they're supposed to be doing.

00;15;35;05 - 00;15;44;11
Keegan Albaugh
Like, that person's a human being taking care of another human being like that. That's not you shouldn't be applauded for that like or treated any differently.

00;15;44;13 - 00;16;05;18
Paul Sullivan
So, you know, I agree 100% that the bar is so low for a set of dads in the wild like that. But on the flip side, I think that the bar can be quite high. And so one of the things I'm trying to do with the company of dads is to create a community for for Lee dads, men who work full time, part time, or devote themselves entirely to their kids, but are essentially the primary parent.

00;16;05;18 - 00;16;22;13
Paul Sullivan
And, you know, when I was thinking about this for the past couple of years, every other type of parent has, community. If you're a typical go to work, dad, you get up in the morning, get your car, get on the train, go to work, you've got your community lunch, beer, whatever. If you're a stay at home mom, you have the sort of community within your community.

00;16;22;13 - 00;16;48;00
Paul Sullivan
You know, house worship, school, hobbies, etc. working moms have a group, you know, they're quite busy and they can get together and be together. But men who identify as the primary power, men who are what I call the dads, you know, they lack that community, they lack that, you know, and some of it is, you know, when you were saying about, maybe think about it like, let's play, you know, pong and drink, you know, an IPA.

00;16;48;03 - 00;17;03;04
Paul Sullivan
And it took a while for the guys to warm up and start talking about the underlying issues. You know, I see it where I am, you know, in southern Connecticut with, you know, men have come up to me and said, you know, I want to be part of a group, but, you know, don't, don't say that I do this.

00;17;03;04 - 00;17;30;03
Paul Sullivan
You know, these are guys who are doing whatever I'm like, what does that mean? That means that means you have a more flexible schedule than your wife, and therefore you could be with your son or daughter and that's a good thing. How do you think we go about, you know, normalizing the role so that, you know, a lead dad in southern Connecticut can do what he's doing, and a dad with a stroller in Vermont isn't pulled over and given a ticket for to, you know, to make sure the baby is properly strapped in.

00;17;30;06 - 00;17;33;04
Paul Sullivan
How do we normalize these rules that we've taken on?

00;17;33;06 - 00;17;37;08
Keegan Albaugh
It takes time and it takes time. Like.

00;17;37;10 - 00;17;42;08
Paul Sullivan
You know, 2022, it's not 1922. It's 2022.

00;17;42;10 - 00;18;02;24
Keegan Albaugh
Yeah. We've I mean, we've come so far in the past few decades, I think, and there's still like so much work to do. And I think that like, you know, when I, I work here at Dad Guild, I, it's very like long term, you know, I'm, I'm thinking about, you know, what are we modeling for our kids that like, you know, I'm we're kids.

00;18;02;24 - 00;18;21;11
Keegan Albaugh
You know, these dads are going to these playgroups regularly, and you have this generation of children within this community who are now seeing dads as like, oh, they're the ones who are bringing, you know, bringing all the kids to the playgroup and bringing the hot chocolate and like talking about stuff like that. My, my, my five year old.

00;18;21;11 - 00;18;30;15
Keegan Albaugh
So every weekend should like, hey, is her dad go play group. And I'm like, that's so cool that for you this is like, this is the status quo. It's like dads hanging out and playing together. That's that.

00;18;30;15 - 00;18;38;24
Paul Sullivan
Or that. Your five year old has friends as well through that guilt. So your father wants to go because it's not boring. You're not dragging. You know what?

00;18;38;26 - 00;19;04;07
Keegan Albaugh
Yeah, exactly. It's so cool. And I think that, like, it just takes a lot of time because I think like one there's that, there's this I mean, there's I think there's a couple things at play here where one there's this piece around like, you know, dads being engaged. And I think that like for a lot of guys, there's still some discomfort of like, you know, going to a playgroup or going into like anything involving parenting and showing up as a dad because I think, it can feel pretty uncomfortable for folks.

00;19;04;07 - 00;19;22;22
Keegan Albaugh
I think it takes a certain breed of, of guy to be like, I'm not really going to step into this position. Like, and then there's this other piece too, I think are just around men in general where there's such this like lone wolf mentality and that like, you know, men, their social circles are typically way smaller. They're, you know, not talking to people about things.

00;19;22;22 - 00;19;45;17
Keegan Albaugh
And, you know, you see that in men's physical and mental health and how it like, you know, it's a it's a big concern. And like the suicide rates of men, you know, we're conditioned to not talk to other people and to not open up. And so I think that's another piece that, like, just takes a long time of modeling and like, hey, not only is this, like, safe, but it's also cool.

00;19;45;17 - 00;19;53;22
Keegan Albaugh
It's fun. Your partner is really going to like it if you're going and doing this kind of thing. It's just this takes a long time.

00;19;53;24 - 00;20;13;19
Paul Sullivan
I mean, there's one thing getting, you know, men comfortable being in that guild or identifying as lead dads with the company. Dad getting together as as men. But, I mean, have you tried to broker any peace with, like, the mom mafia up in Vermont? Like, you know, you know, like, extend an olive branch? Like how how in how do you get it?

00;20;13;19 - 00;20;30;27
Paul Sullivan
Get it to that? It isn't the strangest thing on a playground when, mom see dads, you know, five dads at strollers and say, Holy shit, what's going on there? We gotta go make sure those kids are okay. Like, how do we normalize that so that you're just all parents together? And some of you happen to be moms, and some of you happen to be dads?

00;20;30;29 - 00;20;47;04
Keegan Albaugh
Yeah. And like, and there's a few things I wanted to address in there that you just said, one just immediately that piece set around, like, how are we creating a community where it doesn't matter who you are, that you're just, you know, you're a caregiver and you're you can step onto, like, any playground, and everyone can be comfortable with each other.

00;20;47;04 - 00;21;13;16
Keegan Albaugh
And that's just like, that's a really beautiful goal of like, how do we get to that point in society where it doesn't matter who you are? And so I think, you know, that's part of our work in the conversations that we're having is like one like we're specifically targeting dads and those who, you know, non birth partners, those who identify as fathers, you know, specifically targeting that group of folks because, they have not been engaged in this role for a very, very, very long time.

00;21;13;19 - 00;21;34;11
Keegan Albaugh
That being said, it's really important that we're also working with different community partners and having conversations to ensure that, like, hey, how are we ensuring that no matter how a caregiver identifies that they're also, you know, getting the same benefits as, dad and dad guilt or a mother in some, you know, parenting group, how are we ensuring that, like, we're not widening any gaps and that no one is being left behind?

00;21;34;11 - 00;21;55;13
Keegan Albaugh
And how are we really using this identity as a caregiver to build bridges and create connections? Because when you step, when when you have a kid and someone else has a kid, there's so much you just get, regardless of anything else that going on in a person's life, you're like, I, I get it. So there's that piece, and then, gosh, remember the other part of your.

00;21;55;13 - 00;22;17;03
Keegan Albaugh
Oh, so the other piece you were mentioning about, have you extended an olive branch to any of the mom groups? You know, when we started together, one of our first, steps of action was like reaching out to every community partner and just being like, hey, do you want to meet? And just, like, talking and kind of sharing one, developing a better understanding of like, hey, what's what is going on in terms of parenting support and in terms of how we're engaging dads?

00;22;17;05 - 00;22;32;08
Keegan Albaugh
Tell me more and tell me about the work that you're doing. And also, here's what we're trying to do, and let's make some connections. And overwhelmingly, like all of our community partners have been so jazzed about the work that we're doing and the perspective that we're bringing because, you know, we're not too we're not like, hey, we just dads.

00;22;32;08 - 00;22;42;00
Keegan Albaugh
Dads need attention. And like, you know, we're going to we just want to go and have beer hang out and stuff in the house more. It's like, that's not what we're doing. Like, you know, we're addressing that. But but to.

00;22;42;00 - 00;22;44;18
Paul Sullivan
Be clear, there is beer involved, right?

00;22;44;20 - 00;23;09;03
Keegan Albaugh
So sometimes we're pretty intentional about like, you know, some some events have alcohol present. Some don't. If there is alcohol present it doesn't the event is not circled around it. There's something else that people can engage in just considering things like substance use and addiction. You know, but talking with, you know, just these other, community partners and particularly, like, mom communities around, hey, how can we, you know, how can we work together?

00;23;09;03 - 00;23;41;09
Keegan Albaugh
Because, like, I think I was mentioning is that, like, yes, we're addressing, like, you know, the mental health and well-being of men. We're talking, you know, we're exploring like, or addressing how kids are better off when dads are engaged and involved. And a big part of our work is addressing gender equity in parenting. You know, you talk about how many people who give birth take time off from work after to take care of a child and how that affects you know, that things like the the wage gap in our country and how so when we're engaging more men and doing that work, how are we having an impact on that kind of stuff?

00;23;41;11 - 00;23;57;13
Keegan Albaugh
And so I think when community partners and moms groups, you know, hear that piece of the work can have a develop a better understanding of like, what are what are we actually really trying to accomplish? This isn't just dudes getting together. This is much bigger than that. Then it's it's pretty quick, like, whoa, like that's awesome. We want to partner up and support that.

00;23;57;16 - 00;24;16;09
Paul Sullivan
Plus, you know, when we read all of this research and see all this data on the second shift on, you know, moms coming home from work and still feeling like they have to do so much of the household stuff, so much of the family stuff, so much of the kid stuff. You know, the only way that that gets reduced is if, you know, fathers embrace the fact that they can do stuff.

00;24;16;09 - 00;24;30;26
Paul Sullivan
You know, I have this video that I did a couple days ago, the complete tongue in cheek nonsense. But it's it's sort of, you know, the dad talking to bro dad. And the whole concept is around folding the laundry and like, the lead dad is like, you know, you could fold the laundry and watch Sportscenter at the same time.

00;24;30;26 - 00;24;51;11
Paul Sullivan
The other guy's like, I don't know, why would I fold laundry? I don't know, say, like, it's these little things that if, you know, we get mended that that advances slowly. So the gender equity, it advances slowly. This, you know, notion that both both partners can fulfill their own potential, whether, you know, the man is the primary parent or the mom is.

00;24;51;11 - 00;24;58;21
Paul Sullivan
And that's something that I mean, I work toward. It is is that something that, you know, you've been working toward over the past couple of years?

00;24;58;23 - 00;25;18;12
Keegan Albaugh
Oh, yeah, for sure. And I think, you know, one is the recognition that, like, every family is different and that like, you know, people, you know, my goal isn't per se to like, in every household that like, everything's fully balanced, but just trusting that like people or at least having the conversations and exploring like, because, you know, some folks might be working full time or someone's at home.

00;25;18;12 - 00;25;40;25
Keegan Albaugh
And that depends on, you know, how flexible one's job is or what they're getting paid and that like, just ultimately folks are having conversations and that they have choices into how they're running their family and how things are divided. Because I definitely used to keep score myself like, well, I did, I cleaned, I cooked this week and I did the dishes and I vacuumed and like right now it's like 3 to 1, like, what the heck?

00;25;40;25 - 00;25;41;10
Keegan Albaugh
And like that.

00;25;41;10 - 00;25;46;13
Paul Sullivan
I bet that went over really well. I bet that your scorekeeping was really appreciated.

00;25;46;15 - 00;26;03;14
Keegan Albaugh
Yeah, yeah. It was, I sat on the couch a lot. But it's like it took it's taking a long time to be like, hey, man, like that. Don't do that. Don't do that as, like, have conversations about, you know, how how you are divvying things up and really just, what do you need and what how can you offer support?

00;26;03;16 - 00;26;30;03
Keegan Albaugh
But that piece, you know, I'm actually I'm, I'm writing a grant application right now, and, like, one of the pieces that we're highlighting is that piece around, like, you know, the unpaid labor of, of women at the home in terms of, like, childcare responsibilities. And I forget the exact numbers, but like, it's it's pretty significant. And then the if there's some basic research out there too that shows like actually when, like when, when there is a dad present like the women's workload actually increases as well.

00;26;30;03 - 00;26;59;29
Keegan Albaugh
And it's just like, oh my gosh, like this is so startling. And so I think that piece around like, you know, when we're creating this community of dads and so we're, you know, creative, we're making it cool. We're making it fun. It's like, you know, it's becoming like the thing to do if you live in this area. But then, then you start kind of like introducing these things like, hey, let's do a book group around this, like, hey, on our social media, let's, let's put some of these posts, addressing, you know, the, the unfair balance of like, unpaid labor that, mothers take on.

00;27;00;04 - 00;27;21;11
Keegan Albaugh
And so I think that, like, now that you have a community and you have a following, as men to kind of be like, hey, men like this is important. And I make sure you're talking about this with your partner in your family, because then I hope we get to a point where, like, because there's a lot of guys who are reluctant to, like, you know, really participate in that guilt that's like, that's that's, that is so that really intrigues me.

00;27;21;13 - 00;27;34;27
Keegan Albaugh
But like, you know, when you get to a point where, like, there's a lot of moms putting pressure on the dads, like, hey, you should go be a part of this. And so I'm hoping you get to a point where, like, if dad is like not engaging, it's like, dude, you kind of look like a little bit of a jerk.

00;27;34;27 - 00;27;35;09
Keegan Albaugh
Like a.

00;27;35;09 - 00;27;38;25
Paul Sullivan
Slacker. You're kind of slacking off. Like, just go, yeah, you know?

00;27;38;27 - 00;27;53;14
Keegan Albaugh
Yeah, your partner's like, see this and telling you to do it. You're still saying no and like and like, hey, you're saying no. These guys are talking about, like, being better partners and spouses and and doing more around the house and like, you don't want to go to that. Why not? Like, so my hopes that like that continues to be some pressure.

00;27;53;17 - 00;28;12;15
Paul Sullivan
When you've had, you know, sort of converts when you've had dads who were reluctant to go to dad girl, then you got them to go and gone with them and then they've stayed on when they reflect back on their reluctance and then talk about sort of, you know, almost their conversion to being brought a girl, what was it, what do they what do they say, what stands out to them?

00;28;12;17 - 00;28;34;23
Keegan Albaugh
Yeah, the two things that stick out to me. One, social anxiety. You know, we did a survey asking people like if you do an annual survey and last year we did one just kind of be like, hey, if, you know, if you're not coming out, why aren't you coming? And a quarter, a quarter of respondents said social anxiety was like the thing holding them back, and talking.

00;28;34;23 - 00;28;51;15
Keegan Albaugh
And it's just like it's awkward as an adult to be like, hey, go to this event where there's a bunch of other dads just hanging around, you know, talking or doing something, and you, you may not know anyone, but you should go. And it's like, that's that's even even for anyone, not just dads like, that produces a lot of anxiety.

00;28;51;18 - 00;29;26;01
Keegan Albaugh
As an adult in the world. But I think the biggest thing that always is consistently said and stands out is that guys, they didn't know something like this existed and they didn't know that they wanted it and they didn't know that they needed it. And so this piece around, you know, guys, unless it's like in their face and they're seeing it a lot, guys aren't they're not like they're not having a kid and they're not going home and like googling dad group, they're not like, oh, I really I really want to connect with a bunch of dads.

00;29;26;01 - 00;29;38;05
Keegan Albaugh
They're more just like, all right, I have a kid now. And like, you know, I'm a man and I'm a dad. And we don't, you know, we don't get together and talk about how we're doing. And like, you know, we don't make up hot cocoa and a big group and, you know, go to the playground together with sleds.

00;29;38;05 - 00;29;59;23
Keegan Albaugh
Like, that's just not something that I've been exposed to. And when guys come and they participate and they start talking and they come back and they're like, wow. Like I had this, like kind of hole in my life that I didn't, I wasn't really aware of. And then once I became a part of this community, it was like, oh, like that, this, this, that was the whole was this like this community and connection to other men and other dads.

00;29;59;25 - 00;30;12;26
Keegan Albaugh
And so that piece and that's gets really interesting. It's like, how do you how do you sell for not reselling, but like how do you, introduce something to someone when like, they just have no idea what it is. It's just such a foreign concept to them.

00;30;12;26 - 00;30;30;24
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, yeah, it's a community connection, I love it. Keegan, thank you for being my guest today on the Company of Dads podcast. I always give, the last word to the guest. And so tell me, I mean, what's your goal? What do you want to make sure we know about dad gable? You know, you grew up from 0 to 500.

00;30;30;24 - 00;30;43;00
Paul Sullivan
You've taken over the playground. You're swamping it with all those strollers. Nobody messes with dad guilt anymore. But what's your goal going forward for? For dad guilt in Vermont, and beyond.

00;30;43;02 - 00;31;15;09
Keegan Albaugh
Yeah. Thanks for having me on, Paul. And I would say, like. Yeah, I mean, at this point, we just need to grow our capacity. Like I said, we're. I mean, I'm, I work ten hours a week. I probably spent closer, like, you know, 15 to 20, but the list is so long. And the stuff that we want to accomplish, you know, we've had some conversations with folks at the state level around like, hey, creating a statewide fatherhood network, to be ensuring that there's really no father in the state of Vermont who's, you know, missing out, and has an opportunity to be a part of our community and to provide more resources

00;31;15;09 - 00;31;33;22
Keegan Albaugh
for folks. So I'd say anyone who's interested can go to dad guilt. Org and learn a bit more. And if any of our listeners are like billionaire philanthropists who are looking to invest in fatherhood in the Green Mountain State, then please reach out, because that's what we're that's what we need right now.

00;31;33;25 - 00;31;38;00
Paul Sullivan
The perfect way to end. Thank you again, Keegan as well.

00;31;38;00 - 00;31;39;21
Keegan Albaugh
Thanks so much, Paul, for the pleasure.