EP13: Firefighting, Fraternity and Family

Interview with Max Rivera / New York City Firefighter, Lead Dad

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

After the September 11 attacks, Max Rivera knew he wanted to be a New York City firefighter. It’s not an easy job to get but he was determined to do it. It took him over a decade to accomplish his goal. But he made it and was assigned to a storied fire house in Flatbush, Brooklyn. He’s now part of an elite special operations squad that backs up other fire houses. While he can leave the job at work, it’s harder to leave his Lead Dad responsibilities at home when he reports to the station. He’s got support: his community of fellow firefighters. Because of their schedules of days living in the firehouse and days off, New York’s Bravests are a group full of Lead Dads. What’s more difficult – responding to a three-alarm fire or being a Lead Dad on little sleep to his two kids when his wife is at the office? Hear for yourself.

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Transcript

00;00;05;00 - 00;00;25;00
Paul Sullivan
I'm Paul Sullivan, your host and the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, sublime, strange and silly aspects of being a dad in a world where men often feel they have to hide, or at least not talk about their parenting role. I know this from firsthand experience as a lead dad to my three girls, three dogs, three cats, and, somewhat remarkably, three fish.

00;00;25;02 - 00;00;42;21
Paul Sullivan
I did this all while managing my career and striving to be an above average husband. One thing I know for sure about being a dad is it's not a normal. You're not doing what dads have traditionally done. Going to work and leaving the parenting to mom or someone else. Nor are you always welcome into the world where moms are the primary caregiver.

00;00;42;23 - 00;01;07;15
Paul Sullivan
But here at the Company of dads, our goal is to shake all that off and focus on what really matters family, friendship, finance and find. Today, my guest is Max Rivera, New York City firefighter and lead dad with two kids. He's got an amazing background, having started in the music business, worked for some high profile restaurant tours in New York City, and after nine over 11 shifted his focus to becoming a firefighter.

00;01;07;19 - 00;01;22;25
Paul Sullivan
His wife is an attorney and then has counsel that a large asset management firm, and he's got a son, three and a half and a daughter, nine month old yesterday. Welcome, Max. Live from Park Slope, Brooklyn to the Company of Dads podcast.

00;01;22;28 - 00;01;24;27
Max Rivera
Yes, yes. Thank you Paul.

00;01;25;00 - 00;01;35;11
Paul Sullivan
All right. I got to ask you, start off here, what's harder to respond to, a three alarm fire or kids screaming in the middle of the night?

00;01;35;13 - 00;01;56;03
Max Rivera
Oh, man. You know what? There's a lot of overlap there because there are oftentimes kids screaming in the middle of night at three alarm fires. But when they are your own children, I'd have to say that's harder. It's always, there's a lot of overlap in the job, but there's there's something very specific. When it's your own child, and it's never easy.

00;01;56;04 - 00;02;16;01
Max Rivera
You never know exactly what you're doing. Where is that a fire? We have our SLPs. There's always opportunities to deviate. But the reality is we pull up to a building, we see what we see, we make a decision, and we go forward with the plan. Your child screaming, you open the door to his room and who knows what you're going to find?

00;02;16;04 - 00;02;20;12
Max Rivera
That mystery continues to stop me every single time it happens.

00;02;20;15 - 00;02;40;04
Paul Sullivan
I remember. So I've got I've got three kids, three daughters, 12, nine and four. And when my wife was pregnant with our first daughter, we went to the local hospital in Sanford, Connecticut, and we did one of those parenting classes. And you sit there and it's, you know, 6:00 at night, they got some donuts, you got a cup of coffee and somebody to teach you how to swaddle a baby in the night.

00;02;40;06 - 00;02;59;01
Paul Sullivan
It's. This shit's easy. I got this. And then when you actually have a child and it's the middle of the night, this. And you know what? This class would be better done. Like, in the middle of the night after you've had, like, four beers, you've got a full bladder and somebody is yelling at you. So that's why I think you have a leg up on the rest of us as a five.

00;02;59;01 - 00;03;06;16
Paul Sullivan
But you were. You've trained for crises. You're trained under pressure. And so when you open that door, like you just got to react to what you see, like, okay.

00;03;06;18 - 00;03;30;08
Max Rivera
Yeah. A lot of guys I work with talk about that. The overnights actually being slightly easier for us as dads, given our, our profession than it is for the moms. But you know what they're, they're feeding, they have a completely different job assignment than what we have. Oftentimes it's just wake up, go console the baby, maybe hold the baby, maybe feed the baby if the baby's being bottle fed.

00;03;30;08 - 00;03;39;06
Max Rivera
But, certainly, like I said, there's overlap, that there's something unique to being a fireman. And, waking up overnight and having to kind of immediately go to work.

00;03;39;08 - 00;03;54;16
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, yeah. Tell me a little bit, we're gonna focus on your role now as a dad and as a firefighter and talk a little bit about your what were you doing before? How did you get into this? Tell me. You're kind of history. But before you became a nifty, firefighter for.

00;03;54;19 - 00;04;07;20
Max Rivera
Gosh. So I've been I've wanted to be a firefighter since, probably like four years old. If I'm, if I'm being honest. And I think that happens to a lot of four year old. So Backdraft comes I mean.

00;04;07;20 - 00;04;13;21
Paul Sullivan
It's pretty it's pretty cool. I mean, you got the truck, the siren, the ladder. I mean, there's nothing like a for you. That's cool.

00;04;13;23 - 00;04;36;10
Max Rivera
And honestly, like, I always wanted a job that was like super straightforward that you say, hey, this is what I do. And a four year old completely for the most part understands what it, it. So I've always admired that about the profession. It's, pretty simple. Whether you're watching a movie like Gangs of New York or Backdraft, it's water on fire, and that's the best thing we've come up with since the beginning of time.

00;04;36;13 - 00;04;53;03
Max Rivera
So I love the tradition. And, I'm fortunate enough to be a New Yorker. So my hometown team, besides the Yankees, is the FDNY. So it felt, to a certain extent, not necessarily like a birthright, but just this is the team that I wanted to play for. There was no other place in the world that I'd want to be a firefighter.

00;04;53;03 - 00;05;15;08
Max Rivera
So at four years old, I see this movie and I'm like, oh my God, this is this is it for me. My interests kind of fade and they take me a little bit more on a, a sine wave of sort of, ideas and ambitions throughout my life. 9/11 happened in my hometown, in my backyard. And this renewed sort of shift kind of lights up within me.

00;05;15;08 - 00;05;39;16
Max Rivera
And I started thinking more seriously about becoming a firefighter. My mother sort of cautioned against me joining the fire department, and it had nothing to do with the level of danger. I mean, obviously there was some concern there, but the fire department is just like this really old guard, old institution. It feels almost impenetrable and sort of archaic in the way that they do their hiring process.

00;05;39;16 - 00;05;58;24
Max Rivera
That happens once every four, maybe four plus years. Everything is dependent on a test. And most people that take the civil service test are hired if they get a perfect score. So the margins are super thin. It's like 60 to 70, 70,000 people take the test every four years and, maybe 2000 get hired.

00;05;58;26 - 00;06;06;18
Paul Sullivan
So, and did you have anybody, anybody in your family, you know that parents, cousins? No. No. Okay. No. Firefighters.

00;06;06;19 - 00;06;25;21
Max Rivera
And as, as you can imagine that the fire department has a lot of legacy, in particular, after nine, 11, a lot of a lot of sons and daughters went on to join the ranks because of, their fathers losing their lives in the line of duty. So, a ton of legacy. And I had none of it.

00;06;25;23 - 00;06;44;11
Max Rivera
It was just a motivation from the very beginning. And I started getting this sort of obsessive level, within the job, they call it being above, but this obsessive level and interest in wanting to join the fire department and trying to figure out what it took to join the fire department, trying to figure out what it took to get an ideal assignment.

00;06;44;11 - 00;07;07;00
Max Rivera
Like, not only was it, enough for me to become a firefighter, but I wanted to go someplace where I would be busy, where I would get to practice my craft and go to fires. As weird as that sounds, within the world of the fire department, that's that's, really highly sought. So I spent, almost a decade trying to figure out how to become a firefighter.

00;07;07;00 - 00;07;15;08
Max Rivera
And I did a lot of other things a long way. But, when when the moment came in 2015 and I got the call, I was thrilled.

00;07;15;10 - 00;07;30;16
Paul Sullivan
That's awesome. That's. I'll talk about, you know, you know, you're at your second firehouse on fire station. Talk about the first one and talk about, you know, what you what you've learned that was different than what you expected in being a firefighter.

00;07;30;19 - 00;07;55;27
Max Rivera
Oh, man. I'm trying to see if I have sort of, like, an anecdotal story I can share, because there's definitely a lot about the fire department that it's, it's almost hard to articulate. You can't really fully explain. And if you're not on the job that said, I guess I'd expected really compassionate, thoughtful, highly intelligent, highly motivated, colleagues.

00;07;56;00 - 00;08;24;06
Max Rivera
But I was still blown away when I encountered the people that I got a chance to work with, in Flatbush. I mean, Brooklyn has its own unique brand of firefighting where, very motivated, eager to get to whatever the emergency is. And, and, I was instantly struck by that brand and that level of, sort of, commitments.

00;08;24;06 - 00;08;51;12
Max Rivera
Not the right word because everyone on the job committed. But it's it's a high level of motivation. But I found that the people were incredible. The area was really special, extremely diverse. And, that's where I learned to just be a basic firefighter. You know, we we went to fires, we stretched hoses, we put out fires, and we got to learn some life lessons and have some laughs and, you know, have a couple of, happy moments, too.

00;08;51;15 - 00;09;01;26
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, yeah. And now but now you're at a different unit. And talk to me a little bit about what this, this sort of special unit does and how it helps out, you know, other firefighters around the city.

00;09;01;29 - 00;09;35;23
Max Rivera
Yeah, sure. So after, almost six years, fighting fires, I put in an application to join special operations. I moved to, Special operations unit about ten months ago. I changed borough, so I got to see something totally different. Now I'm going to fires on the 30th and 40th floors, and, in the second and third sub cellars and below major landmarks and instantly recognizable places from Grand Central to Penn Station to Madison Square Garden.

00;09;35;26 - 00;09;58;02
Max Rivera
It's a completely different world. And while I always understood the city and I had a relationship with Manhattan, from early on, it's just it's taken a completely different turn. Now as a, as a firefighter. So I get to sort of learn about the city through that lens. Also within special operations were tasked with, a multitude of other sort of rescue disciplines.

00;09;58;02 - 00;10;27;26
Max Rivera
So high angle rope rescue, blind elevator shaft moving, heavy things through rigging, water rescue, diving into the east River and outs. And for people that decide to go for a swim and were also, responsible for going to every sort of fire of consequence in the borough and being a, a safe guard and a unit that is not only operating, but there in case of an emergency, and in particular in case of emergency for a fellow firefighter.

00;10;27;28 - 00;10;35;13
Paul Sullivan
This is amazing. But yet at the same time, you said it can still be a little scarier going into your three and a half year old's room at two in the morning.

00;10;35;16 - 00;10;44;14
Max Rivera
It can. It's just it's it's, Look, I take my job really personal, but it's just a different level of personal life. Sure. When it's your time.

00;10;44;16 - 00;11;03;03
Paul Sullivan
You know, one of the things when I was, you know, you get it. You're working on the idea that became the company of dads I was trying to think of, you know, what type of men could be lead dads. And I thought, you know, it's obviously somebody who has some level of control over their schedule. You know, some dads are fully involved just with their kids and that that's cool.

00;11;03;10 - 00;11;26;15
Paul Sullivan
Some have, a super flexible schedule. You can work a couple hours here, a couple hours at night, get it done, whatever. And then there are, you know, guys like you that have, more of a fixed, schedule, you know, three, three days on, four days off. How does that help you sort of fulfill your responsibilities as as a as a dad, as a dad, as a as a husband, but also as a firefighter.

00;11;26;15 - 00;11;28;12
Paul Sullivan
How is that helpful to you?

00;11;28;15 - 00;12;01;11
Max Rivera
So with, with, with rare exception, I'm actually gone, closer to 27 ish hours with the commute, for any period of time for work. And then I have, anywhere from 24 to maybe 72 hours off. It does depend. The the hard part is being away from a family. That's the toughest, toughest aspect. I try not to take my work home, and I'm fortunate that I have to be in the firehouse, and I have to be responding to emergencies in order to do my job.

00;12;01;11 - 00;12;23;23
Max Rivera
So I don't have the endless email pings that say my wife gets as a corporate wife. But it is 2022, so we have all these other notification systems for those of us that are into knowing what firefighters doing when they're off work. So there is a little bit of a I can't ever seem to get away, but I have the good, good fortune of being able to put the job down.

00;12;24;00 - 00;12;42;24
Max Rivera
The hardest part is going into work and putting the family down, because my cell phone is always ringing. There's always a crisis, there's always, this child spitting up or this person woke up twice overnight. And you want to be there. And it's so hard because it always seems like. Right. Those things happen when you're working. Yeah.

00;12;42;24 - 00;13;08;18
Max Rivera
And the two days that you're off are just totally, unremarkable. But the the biggest challenge or I guess, the biggest motivating factor is I have the time away. And so that whole time I get to focus on work to the best of my abilities, obviously, I'm always hearing about what's happening at home, but that kind of inspires me to be even more motivated and even more involved in my children's lives.

00;13;08;22 - 00;13;19;05
Max Rivera
When I'm off work and I try to take as much as possible off my wife's plate because she's got a big, high profile job and she's doing really important things, much more important than I'm doing. I don't.

00;13;19;07 - 00;13;36;23
Paul Sullivan
You know, it's not it's not about one doing, you know, more important than the other. It's about people. Yeah. The whole ethos of the company of dads is people fulfilling their potential. You wanted to be a firefighter since into for years, and you've succeeded in doing that. Your wife is a corporate attorney. She's fulfilling her potential in that way.

00;13;36;23 - 00;13;50;05
Paul Sullivan
And you as somebody who can take stuff off her plate, as you said, you as a dad can, you know, help her fulfill it potentially. Yet you still hey, you can. Awesome job. You're in, you know, New York City, firefighter. It's incredible. Yeah.

00;13;50;07 - 00;14;12;19
Max Rivera
No, I, I'm lucky to have a job that I have. I love my job. But, yeah, I do things like figuring out, what schools our children should go to or playdates or you name it, whenever I have a day off. And particularly on weekends when I know my wife also has a little bit more downtime, I try to be as involved as possible, with the children.

00;14;12;22 - 00;14;30;12
Paul Sullivan
It's interesting. You know, I've talked to a lot of guys, early dads. And I said sometimes it's difficult to get, you know, more traditional caregivers, moms or babysitters and nannies to sort of engage with them, to have a playdate because they're like the dad. But I'm thinking you got a built in advantage because, I mean, you can literally show up with the fire hat, you know, bring them.

00;14;30;15 - 00;14;35;19
Paul Sullivan
The kids are like, oh my God, you know, it's Hollis, his dad. He's the coolest dad, you know?

00;14;35;21 - 00;14;43;09
Max Rivera
Yeah. And the tours and the firehouse and the truck are it's always a good, a good standby with with all the other parent.

00;14;43;11 - 00;15;08;16
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. When you're when you're at the fire station and you're you're working gigs, are there a lot of, you know, firefighters who are also taking on this role of lead dad because of their schedule, or you also talked about I don't even speak for the fire department. More traditional, I mean, is what you're doing among your colleagues, sort of exceptional or is it in 2022 becoming, you know, more of the norm?

00;15;08;19 - 00;15;35;07
Max Rivera
I think firefighters have always kind of had a small aspect of being lead dads. Right? Our schedule just gives us, those random Thursdays off, or the opportunity to coach a Little League team. That said, there definitely is a cross generational divide between, say, the firefighters that were hired in the 90s that I work with versus some of the other colleagues I have that were kind of hired around the same era that I was hired.

00;15;35;07 - 00;16;09;26
Max Rivera
So the younger guys, are way more lead that kind of friendly and understand it. They get it. Some of the older guys, like they're very involved and I never I don't want to take away from their parenting, but they're a little bit more old school. So reasoning or sharing, my motivations behind why I want to be as involved as I am sometimes can, can lead to, very colorful, conversations as to why guys are involved as they are this generation and, why they weren't in previous generations.

00;16;09;26 - 00;16;21;05
Max Rivera
But I think everyone grows from that. It doesn't necessarily change their opinions. I don't think I've ever changed anyone's opinion on my job, but it sheds light and I'm able to say, hey, this is important to me for these reasons.

00;16;21;07 - 00;16;47;19
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, I think about this. You may not change, you know, look, you can't all you can't change people's minds about certain things, but you so you may not change their opinions. But what I found is that in talking about this role and in making it more public in and building this community, you find that there are men out there who were like secret lead dads, like they were doing this and they didn't feel comfortable talking about it, like, oh, you're doing that or, I'm doing that too, you know?

00;16;47;19 - 00;17;01;02
Paul Sullivan
And it it makes for a better conversation and then you can share. You and I were joking before we started recording that, you know, if you kind of look at your phone, you like, God damn it. I can't believe she didn't get into ballet class. You know, the other guys are going to look at you like, what are you talking about?

00;17;01;08 - 00;17;14;15
Paul Sullivan
But that's a real thing when you know, you and I get that, you know, instinctively, you know, you talking about your daughter, nine months old. She actually got some shots yesterday. So like any, any parent, you know, dad or mom, you're concerned about her. You know, how she got to feel. Yeah.

00;17;14;22 - 00;17;16;16
Max Rivera
Of course, of course.

00;17;16;18 - 00;17;38;03
Paul Sullivan
You know, when you're, you know, your your wife is pregnant, you know, you're going to have a kid. You have your son was first born. Did you have a conversation about, you know, parenting roles or was it something where you just knew that you had a schedule that was going to be, you know, more flexible, not having those constant things that you said it and you'd be able to really, you know, step in.

00;17;38;07 - 00;17;39;29
Paul Sullivan
How did that come to be?

00;17;40;01 - 00;18;02;05
Max Rivera
I, I, we definitely had a few conversations. And I think that the hardest thing or the most interesting thing I'd say is that I probably focus most of the conversations we had on the good side, which was, I'm going to have all this time, I can be there. I probably should have spent more time talking about. I'm also going to be aware, significant amount of time and how are we going to manage those things?

00;18;02;07 - 00;18;22;09
Max Rivera
How is that going to impact your career? How is that going to impact my career? Because obviously there's there's times that I'm away and there's certainly lots of offers to be away even more right? Over time, more trainings, opportunities to travel and train with other fire departments and other units. And that is probably the conversation we've had the most.

00;18;22;12 - 00;18;42;13
Max Rivera
It's all right. Where's the delicate balance there? Right? I was raised by a single mother for the most part, and she always had those critical decisions that she needed to make, which is do I have to call in sick for this? Right. My my son's going through this. I need to come up. And we almost had like a list of excuses like, all right, we use food poisoning last month.

00;18;42;19 - 00;19;01;16
Max Rivera
So we're going to say, kids have a dentist, whatever it is, right? Yeah. Because you're always just the juggle is so hard. It's so much easier with two parents. And even that is really hard. But no, we had a lot of conversations about, you know, just the juggle. What is that going to look like?

00;19;01;18 - 00;19;22;23
Max Rivera
And there was some more unspoken understandings of, hey, those Tuesday appointments, the swim lessons, the school field trips, that's probably always going to fall on you. You know, you're going to have the opportunity to move your schedule around or do whatever it takes to say, okay, I'll be the chaperon for the Museum of Natural History, trip or whatever the case is.

00;19;22;23 - 00;19;44;07
Max Rivera
And for my son, he goes to a preschool. It's a it's a collective. It's a cooperative preschool. So every parent has a role. And there are ten of us that have roles that are such a heavy lift that our partners, don't need to have a role. So I immediately gravitated toward one of those roles. I'm on the board, and, my wife doesn't have to do something at the school.

00;19;44;09 - 00;20;04;16
Max Rivera
And there's 100 jobs. You know, it's picking up trash in the side yard. It's snow shoveling, you name it. But being on the board has given me the opportunity to be even more involved, which I love. And it has, a lasting effect on my wife's career in that she doesn't need to make time and then kind of dread the time to do something at the school.

00;20;04;18 - 00;20;06;20
Max Rivera
Because she's busy with her job.

00;20;06;23 - 00;20;21;29
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, so much there. But let me give you one tip here. If it comes to chaperoning at the Museum of Natural History. That's okay, I've done that. You really want to put your hand up for the Bronx Zoo? Because the Bronx, right? That's where you want a chaperon. That, that's good fun because you get to be like, you know, a kid all over again.

00;20;21;29 - 00;20;45;11
Paul Sullivan
You don't have to be crazy. Like. Yeah, I like that. And one of the things you said is, you know, and I remember this so well, you know, 25 years a journalist, 13 at the New York Times where you sometimes have to pass up on things that you might not that you wouldn't have passed up on if you were single or if you were married and you didn't have kids and you talked about, you know, extra training or traveling to, you know, training within a fire department.

00;20;45;11 - 00;21;00;03
Paul Sullivan
And that's all. It's all professional development. It's all in your craft because you get to say, I never I never thought of it. That's what they did when they were going into a building like this or I I'll remember that later on, that this is what they did to get that, you know, man, woman, child out,

00;21;00;05 - 00;21;19;03
Paul Sullivan
And you only get that through experience. And I it was fortunate that for the majority of my time, the New York Times, I was a weekly columnist. So I knew exactly what I had to do. But there were times when people would say, hey, do you want to meet for, lunch on a Tuesday? And I would say, no, because, yeah, you know, I got other stuff to do.

00;21;19;03 - 00;21;38;23
Paul Sullivan
How to be can you meet for lunch on Thursday? And so, like, I had this kind of how have you been, you know, manage that with your own career. So, you know, you let past ten months, you do gone to an elite unit. But how have you manage that so that you can keep fulfilling your own potential while supporting life and being the dad to your your two kids?

00;21;38;26 - 00;22;06;02
Max Rivera
It's, it hasn't been easy. And I'll also throw in there there's there's a huge social component to my job. And I think that's largely because there's, it feels very fraternal, feels a lot like a fraternity. And given the high level of kind of risk and, some of the, almost like, PTSD inducing things that we experience together as a group, it's really essential that we all decompress together to.

00;22;06;02 - 00;22;28;01
Max Rivera
And we have these experiences, like I said earlier, that only another firefighter, could understand. So that missing out on social stuff, the golf trips, the baseball game, the, the open bar, the bachelor party that's also just as important because you'd be surprised everyone gets around the table and maybe has a beer or two. And suddenly we're going back to talking about what we know.

00;22;28;03 - 00;22;56;15
Max Rivera
It's not always just the parenting or the juggling and the schedules or the, the innocuous conversations. It's the important stuff, too. There I was in that hallway. I found this door. I couldn't believe I saw a person under this bed once. You know, the the apartment had three bathrooms. Who knows? But those sort of, tangential conversations that only occur in really organic settings, you miss out on at the end of the day that my family is super important.

00;22;56;15 - 00;23;14;19
Max Rivera
I have to come home to them. Like, I have a really fun time at work. I'm, thankful every day I get to do my job because it's it's a young man's game. I'm thankful, even more so every day I get to come home from my job. Because sadly, not every single person I've worked with has had that chance.

00;23;14;22 - 00;23;38;21
Max Rivera
When it's all said and done, I know my family will be proud of everything I've accomplished in my professional life, but what matters most to them is I think my time and my opportunity to be with them, and I think those are the memories that they'll take with them, for as long as they can remember. So that's that's how I make those decisions is in the moment.

00;23;38;24 - 00;23;48;25
Max Rivera
It can be really hard. And I never want to pass up on training or opportunity to work extra, earn a couple extra bucks. It is New York City, after all. But, it's a delicate balance.

00;23;48;27 - 00;24;08;25
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, but what I'm hearing you say is that, you know, the balance is almost to to be present in two very different worlds, you know, to be present as, as a dad, dad, as a as a husband, you know, when you're home and be there with the kids, but also to be present with your colleagues, with with your fellow, you know, firefighters.

00;24;08;25 - 00;24;26;03
Paul Sullivan
And there's something, you know, sometimes a beer isn't just a beer. Sometimes, you know, a couple beers is you're getting you're you're you're bonding. I mean, I'm I was fortunate to be able to address years ago, years ago, the cadets up at West Point and what they're doing up there is they're building this, this sense of shared sacrifice.

00;24;26;07 - 00;24;45;21
Paul Sullivan
We are all in this together to do, this, this common goal. And I think it's very similar, you know, in the fire department, like you're getting there together and then you're building trust. And, you know, I can trust that guy. He's going to be there. He's going to be on my right. And and the flip side of this Jesus, I don't think I can trust trust that guy as much.

00;24;45;21 - 00;24;53;11
Paul Sullivan
And knowing those things is really crucial. But it's all about, you know, being present into two very, very distinct worlds.

00;24;53;13 - 00;25;18;13
Max Rivera
Yeah. I think, probably my childhood and experience growing up sort of inform that the most. Right. I'm mixed race. I spent time on both coasts, that duality and that shift, has always existed within me. And some people have been critical of it. Or there's a lot of, cultural things that are critical of that sort of code switching that's shifting.

00;25;18;20 - 00;25;39;29
Max Rivera
I've always viewed it as a, a survival mechanism, as something that I've needed to use appropriately at times to kind of navigate worlds and navigate various extremes and polarities. That juxtaposition has always kind of been within me, and now I'm just applying it to my professional life and my family.

00;25;40;02 - 00;25;53;03
Paul Sullivan
Max Rivera, thank you so much for being a guest on the company dad's podcast. I always like to give, my guests the last word. So sort of parting thoughts on on on being a dad from you.

00;25;53;06 - 00;26;03;14
Max Rivera
I guess everyone can be a dad if they're involved. Just stay involved and listen to your kid. I have young kids, and they just started talking, and there's a lot to listen to.

00;26;03;17 - 00;26;18;09
Paul Sullivan
That's great. I like I want to ask one last question. And that's, you know, if you if you get the opportunity for training your lifelong New York Yankees fan and you have to go for firefighter training up in Boston Red Sox Nation, do you go, do you do it or do say, no, I can't do it. I mean,

00;26;18;11 - 00;26;30;18
Max Rivera
And there, I I'd have to go. I respect those guys. Those guys are just as aggressive as we are. And they have a great pedigree and a great history. But, that's not to say I'm not wearing my Mariano Rivera shirt.

00;26;30;21 - 00;26;37;16
Paul Sullivan
I love it, I love it. Enter Sandman. Max, thank you again for your time. I really appreciate it.

00;26;37;18 - 00;26;38;02
Max Rivera
Thanks for.