EP 16: Deadlines and Car Lines

Interview with Kamau High / Journalist / Kid Pickup Pro / Lead Dad

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

Kamau High is a senior editor at The Baltimore Sun, where he helps shape the news agenda and manages a team of reporters. It’s been an interesting path to get where he is. He married his high school sweetheart. They moved to New York, they had fun, they worked – she is a cardiologist, he was a reporter at the Financial Times. And then they had a daughter and a different life beckoned. Today, Kamau is the diversity, equity and inclusion editor as well as the education editor at one of America’s most storied city newspapers. (The creator of The Wire once worked there.) His wife works for an insurance company and their daughter is a teenager – about to enter high school! He’s happy to say that the new way we work has suited his family better, with a greater ability to work from home and go into the office for important meetings. That said, the car line for school pickup remains a constant. Listen to him talk about Lead Dadding a teenager, managing work deadlines and car line drama.

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Transcript

00;00;05;06 - 00;00;27;00
Paul Sullivan
I'm Paul Sullivan, your host on the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, sublime, strange and silly aspects of being a dad in a world where men often feel they have to hide, or at least not talk about their parenting role. I know this from firsthand experience as a lead dad to my three girls, three dogs, three cats, and, somewhat remarkably, three fish.

00;00;27;02 - 00;00;45;21
Paul Sullivan
I did this all while managing my career and striving to be an above average husband. One thing I know for sure about being a dad is it's not a normal one. You're not doing what dads have traditionally done. Going to work and leaving the parenting to mom or someone else. Nor are you always welcome into the world where moms are the primary caregivers.

00;00;45;23 - 00;01;04;17
Paul Sullivan
But here at the company of Dads, our goal to shake all of that off and focus on what really matters family, friendship, finance, and fun. Today my guest is Kamau High, who is a diversity, equity and inclusion editor as well as the education editor at the Baltimore Sun. He's worked for Billboard and written for The Wall Street Journal.

00;01;04;20 - 00;01;22;05
Paul Sullivan
Before the sun, he was a managing editor of the Afro American Newspapers in Baltimore. He and I met back in New York in 2000, when we were both recruited to the Financial Times by Robert Thompson. Back then, we had no kids, no responsibilities beyond work. And at least for me, not a lot of cares. It was a totally different time.

00;01;22;08 - 00;01;39;12
Paul Sullivan
Our paths crossed, I don't know, 4 or 5 years ago. Maybe more than that. When he and his wife and their daughter were living in suburban New York and our kids were at the same school. Today, he's the lead dad to his high school age daughter, Lily, and his wife, Susan, a cardiologist who works in the insurance industry.

00;01;39;15 - 00;01;42;26
Paul Sullivan
Kamau High. Welcome to the Company of Dads podcast.

00;01;42;28 - 00;02;05;15
Kamau High
Thanks for having me, Paul. It's great to be here. The this. You know, I I've been thinking a lot about this holy dad thing, and the one memory that's sort of what sort of I feel like what what sort of led me down this path to to when you say like, hey, let's talk about being lead dads is I was once, standing in the or sitting in the pickup line to pick up my daughter at pre-K.

00;02;05;17 - 00;02;30;01
Kamau High
And I was talking to another dad, and he was essentially embarrassed to be there picking up his child because in his mind, he should be at work being, you know, the financial provider. And I was just like, I don't want to be with people like you at all. I want to be with people who are present and enjoy spending this, this valuable time with your children.

00;02;30;04 - 00;02;43;06
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. But I have to ask you bring up the car line. I mean, you're a longtime journalist, as I was. I mean, what's more stressful? A newspaper, a newspaper deadline or getting to pick up on time for your daughter?

00;02;43;08 - 00;02;53;21
Kamau High
Well, as someone who was who was late, more often than I would like to admit, I'm going to say newspaper deadline. And the reason I was often late to pick up was because of newspaper deadlines.

00;02;53;24 - 00;03;00;24
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, but now she's a teenager to be 14, so she's just used to, you know, rolls her eyes. Dad's always late. It's going to be okay.

00;03;00;26 - 00;03;16;13
Kamau High
Yes. Well, I have to say, the other thing is that the pandemic and sort of working from home has taught me that I do not miss being late to pick up my child. Occasionally I'm late because sometimes life happens. But on a general basis, I am there on time, and it makes life much easier.

00;03;16;16 - 00;03;25;25
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. Now, you and I have known each other for 20 plus years. You and you and Susan, your wife, Susan, you met in the 10th grade?

00;03;25;28 - 00;03;26;11
Kamau High
Yes.

00;03;26;19 - 00;03;31;00
Paul Sullivan
And, God, what a what a saint she is. All these years,

00;03;31;02 - 00;03;48;20
Kamau High
I know, I mean, I look back on myself in 10th grade and go, like, why would she marry me? Who's that? Who's that goofball? He'll never amount to anything. But now we met in high school. Broke up, for college, like many people. Like many couples do. And then sort of got back together, later in life.

00;03;48;20 - 00;03;55;16
Kamau High
And then we we lived in New York together, and, you know, we're still together. We're coming up on 19 years in September.

00;03;55;18 - 00;04;13;18
Paul Sullivan
That's fantastic. And now that you have a daughter who will go into 10th grade next year, you can have this, like, is she going to meet, like, the guy she one day married, marries and like, you know, because high school boys are they're a geeky, nerdy group. And yes, as a father of three daughters, like the daughters are always the girls are always more boys.

00;04;13;18 - 00;04;16;21
Paul Sullivan
And the boys have no idea what's going on.

00;04;16;23 - 00;04;25;10
Kamau High
Yeah. For for years, I wanted to get her a shirt that said, boys are dirty for rocks at them. But but.

00;04;25;13 - 00;04;29;09
Paul Sullivan
We'll sell that on the company of dads, shop. But we'll definitely sell that.

00;04;29;11 - 00;04;50;13
Kamau High
Yeah, my wife convinced me that was not perhaps the best idea. I mean, all right, I guess so, but are you sure? But no, I mean, you know, it's, you know, she meets someone. We will all be happy for her. If she doesn't meet someone, we'll also be happy for her. You know, I feel like, you know, you you meet the friends, and, you know, you sort of see what they do, and you go, like.

00;04;50;15 - 00;05;02;28
Kamau High
But I know what it was like in high school. Like, there's the sort of what you present to your parents, and then there's real life of, like, what's really going on and sort of like that, that tension between like, how much you know and how much you don't know is ever present.

00;05;03;00 - 00;05;22;02
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. Now, you and I know deadlines, you know, and that's the life of a journalist. It focuses the mind, but it also robs you of some control, some control over your time. You know, your wife is a cardiologist. You know, but it's heart stopping work. Couldn't, couldn't couldn't let that go. How did you decide? I mean, you've known each other for so long.

00;05;22;04 - 00;05;32;03
Paul Sullivan
How did you decide when Lily was born? Which one of you would kind of step up and take that primary parent role that that you you would become the lead that.

00;05;32;05 - 00;05;51;26
Kamau High
Well, you know, it's interesting. We started off with, we started off sort of thinking we would be equals, and we started off with health, because we were thankfully privileged to be in that position. And then the Great Recession hit, and I was laid off from my job and we sort of had a real and honest conversation and said, you know what?

00;05;51;29 - 00;06;09;24
Kamau High
Maybe I will take this time to sort of focus on, raising our child. And we will sort of, sort of go from there. And then, you know, a couple of years later, I got a full time job, but sort of the I enjoyed being the lead parent. And frankly, I still have more bandwidth to do it.

00;06;09;24 - 00;06;13;10
Kamau High
So it just sort of kept going even when I went back to full time and whatnot.

00;06;13;13 - 00;06;29;20
Paul Sullivan
The bandwidth is great. Comments is one thing that I think a lot about. It's not that, you know, being a dad, you can work full time, part time, or, you know, for a period of time or whatever, devote yourself fully to your child. But it's having that, you know, flexibility. It's having that ability to to own your own time.

00;06;29;23 - 00;06;50;11
Paul Sullivan
When you think about it and you talked to this story at the top of the pick up line, and the dad is a little embarrassed to be there. You know, we see this all the time. What are some of the challenges of of being, a lead dad in a world where it's still not, you know, totally normal or it causes, you know, certain men to sort of backpedal and overexplain as to why they're there.

00;06;50;13 - 00;07;09;00
Kamau High
Yes. I mean, there's definitely, you know, you meet some men. There's an element of shame. For me, it was always like, listen, I'm here. I love the kid. Let's see what happens. Sort of. I, I will always remember going to essentially like, a mommy and me class when, our daughter was, we'll say maybe two.

00;07;09;02 - 00;07;26;22
Kamau High
And, you know, it's me and, suburban moms, and we're all sort of sitting around the circle, and, you know, I'm. I'm enthusiastic. I'm there, I'm present. And, you know, you can just sort of you can feel the tension in the room as the women are like, who is this guy? Like, I thought this was like, who let him in?

00;07;26;23 - 00;07;44;11
Kamau High
And it was just sort of like, listen, I'm here. I'm gonna. I'm the one put on the one for the birthday parties. I'm the one buying the gifts for the birthday parties. Like you will see me at playdates. You know, I'm the one who had to say like, hey, Sally, let's have a playdate. And at first, it was awkward, because there would be.

00;07;44;13 - 00;08;09;26
Kamau High
It was. There's always this strange tension because there's a man calling a woman, to sort of arrange a playdate. There was always an element of weirdness. But eventually some people realized that, you know, I wasn't looking for them. I was looking for their kid. They were almost irrelevant to me. And, you know, I realize the other thing that's really helped is, at the school that, our daughter was at, there were a lot of ex New York moms there.

00;08;09;29 - 00;08;26;04
Kamau High
And ex New York moms love nothing more than talking about living in New York and how they are not suburban moms. They were ex New Yorkers. So it was like, hey, you know, you want to have a glass of wine at 10:00, but I'm not going to stop you and say, yes, we're all x New Yorkers here.

00;08;26;04 - 00;08;28;16
Kamau High
Let's live it up.

00;08;28;18 - 00;08;34;08
Paul Sullivan
There's no shame. There's no shame. I'm not judging your new, new gender.

00;08;34;11 - 00;08;36;23
Kamau High
And so that that that helped tremendously.

00;08;36;25 - 00;08;56;23
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. It's getting past that barrier that, that I think a lot of dads find difficult. I mean, the running joke is there's there's no man more lonelier than the dad with his kid at the playground because there you are. You're all parent. You're all there for the same reason. Nobody never shows up at a playground just to hang out, have a glass of wine at 10 a.m., you're there because your child wants to run around, and it's a nice day and you got to get.

00;08;56;27 - 00;09;01;09
Kamau High
You got to get out of the house. Got to get out of the house. Got to get out of the house. You're driving me crazy.

00;09;01;16 - 00;09;15;18
Paul Sullivan
What do you think of, like, some tips? Some tips? You know, you've been actively dating a couple years longer than me, but, you know, how did you break the ice? How did you get those moms to say, okay, he's an okay guy? I guess my kids can have a playdate with him. How? How did you do that?

00;09;15;21 - 00;09;34;26
Kamau High
You know, I feel like it was. It was a lot like, I relied a lot on my journalism skills. You know, you and I, we spend our days talking to strangers. I mean, essentially getting people to open up very quickly, often about sensitive and uncomfortable topics. Yeah. So I always treated sort of playground time as these are not mom's quote unquote.

00;09;34;26 - 00;09;51;04
Kamau High
These are these are people with interesting lives. They just happen to be at a playground and happen to have a child. So it would just be as simple as going like, you know, so just sort of saying, you know, sort of like, like, meeting women in a bar when you're over the age of 30. You know, you just say hello.

00;09;51;06 - 00;09;53;21
Kamau High
And, you know, my name is. What's your name?

00;09;53;24 - 00;09;58;02
Paul Sullivan
You didn't have a playground line to, like, get the get the play date, you know, secured.

00;09;58;02 - 00;10;00;05
Kamau High
You know, actually, I mean.

00;10;00;08 - 00;10;04;22
Paul Sullivan
Hey, I've got it. I've got a trampoline in my backyard if you want to come over. Yeah.

00;10;04;24 - 00;10;23;24
Kamau High
I've got, I've got a I've got a jug of frozen. You want some, No. Actually, the way I would, I would do it is I would see which children my, my, my child was playing with and then sort of figure out who the mom was and go like, hi, I'm Kamau, that's my daughter, Lily. Would you like to have a play date?

00;10;23;29 - 00;10;30;00
Kamau High
And nine times out of ten. They would say yes. It was always the occasional person who sort of like, you know, clutch their purse or what.

00;10;30;00 - 00;10;31;26
Paul Sullivan
Would they say? Or they say like, yeah.

00;10;31;29 - 00;10;49;03
Kamau High
Well, you know, you also have to you have to throw the element of race into it. So as a person of color, in a primarily white world, you know, sometimes people are uncomfortable. And those are their problems to deal with, not mine. I would just go, like, listen, you're you're missing out. I'm way fine. So your loss.

00;10;49;06 - 00;10;51;09
Paul Sullivan
I've got the frizzy and the trampoline.

00;10;51;11 - 00;10;57;27
Kamau High
I don't know exactly. You know, you, you know, hang out with those other losers, but we're going to go have a good time.

00;10;57;29 - 00;11;12;15
Paul Sullivan
You know, one of the things, you know, you and I are sort of out going to different cities, but when you talk to other dads in this role, I think there's a lot of a lot of loneliness, you know, like, not kind of understood. Now, you don't want to be, you know, crying as I got it misunderstood.

00;11;12;15 - 00;11;31;18
Paul Sullivan
But there is it sort of this reality. You know, the moms don't always accept you and the, the dads for the good work. Dads, you know, you may not want to be friends with them, but they don't always understand why you're doing this or how this has come about. What are some of those times when you've been in that position, and how have you kind of, you know, navigated around it?

00;11;31;20 - 00;11;53;20
Kamau High
You know, when when Lily was younger, I found that I found another lead that and essentially we became thick as thieves. The there because it was it was essentially the two of us. There were a couple of other dads, but they were primarily the the ashamed, resentful ones, the ones who were like, I'm too good to be picking up my child.

00;11;53;20 - 00;12;06;02
Kamau High
I should, you know, I shouldn't be here. I should be on Wall Street, like, you know, astride like a titan. And, you know, it was just like, I'm sorry that your self-worth is so low, but this is not. This is again, this is not my problem.

00;12;06;04 - 00;12;09;12
Paul Sullivan
This is just a very nice. That's a very nice sports car you have that you're picking your five.

00;12;09;12 - 00;12;38;26
Kamau High
Year old up. Okay. Yeah. I mean, like, I'm sorry, but sort of finding allies. And then also finding moms who were quite cool, the ones who wanted to, who were open to being like, yes, I yes, it is somewhat weird, but yeah, we can make this work. I mean, I found that sort of being friendly, outgoing, bringing snacks, hosting birthday parties, being the one being like, who said, like, hey, let's have, like, I'm happy to have the kids over.

00;12;38;29 - 00;12;55;14
Kamau High
And when the children were younger, there was always that weird sort of transition of like, am I going to leave my child at home with the was essentially a man by himself? And eventually you sort of reached a point of trust with people and, and it would happen. Yeah, but it wasn't it took time.

00;12;55;20 - 00;13;01;08
Paul Sullivan
It's not. Yeah, I know it's not an over. And I think you have to kind of become known in your community as, you know, the man.

00;13;01;10 - 00;13;01;18
Kamau High
As the.

00;13;01;18 - 00;13;03;17
Paul Sullivan
Dad. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And.

00;13;03;19 - 00;13;20;23
Kamau High
Yes. And so, so I was there for parent teacher night. I was there for the, holiday fair. I was there for. Oh, you want to have lunch at school with your kid? You know, those are the things where you you meet the other parents and they say, like, okay, you were here. You were. You were showing up, you were doing the work.

00;13;20;23 - 00;13;24;02
Kamau High
So I feel comfortable, somewhat comfortable talking to you.

00;13;24;05 - 00;13;38;13
Paul Sullivan
I also have that when it comes to like doctors and schools. I have this kind of running conversation when, you know, a new doctor will call my wife and then she'll for the message on in the well, I hope your wife and I said, you do that, but it's like it's a black hole, like my wife, like she runs her own business.

00;13;38;13 - 00;13;46;29
Paul Sullivan
Like to just call me is like. So you want me to call you? Should I call your wife to is like, if you'd like to, but it probably be more effective if you just call back because it'll.

00;13;46;29 - 00;13;48;01
Kamau High
Make you feel better saying.

00;13;48;05 - 00;13;53;22
Paul Sullivan
I'm a dad like, this is my child is mine too. You know, this is not like a crazy thing here.

00;13;53;24 - 00;14;10;18
Kamau High
Yes. The I was going to I was going to say like, yes, I have a personal relationship with, our child's pediatrician and our child's dentist. You know, I'm the one who's going like, oh, with our child's eyeglass. Doctor, you know, I'm the one going, like, okay, it's it's one year. Let's go. We got to go set up our annual eye exams.

00;14;10;18 - 00;14;11;27
Kamau High
Here we go.

00;14;11;29 - 00;14;16;29
Paul Sullivan
You started talking? Yeah. You've been at the Baltimore Sun, and it's been mostly during the pandemic, right?

00;14;17;01 - 00;14;18;21
Kamau High
Yeah, I started in 2018.

00;14;18;21 - 00;14;44;28
Paul Sullivan
So it has. He had some good hasn't had. So. But I'd love to talk to you about how it's changed. Like what it was like, you know, 2018, 2019 when you're going into the Baltimore Sun, you know, when a great, newspapers in America, we're going in there versus and being the dad and your wife having her own career and how it's changed, you know, now when you're, you know, predominantly working, you know, from your home office, I mean.

00;14;45;01 - 00;15;09;08
Kamau High
It is it is it is changed and it also hasn't changed, if that makes sense. You know, I remember vividly being in the office and it was really, you know, it's four maybe 430, 5:00. I'm trying to get out and go pick up my child already. I'm running late and some news breaks on my beat that I needed to deal with, and I had to sort of stop and deal with the news.

00;15;09;08 - 00;15;30;29
Kamau High
So I was even later to pick up my child and sort of that ride home, like on the way to pick her up. And then once she was in the car, I sort of that that sense of like, I have disappointed my child. I've failed my child. Really sort of stuck with me. And when the pandemic came along, it really sort of freed me, from that.

00;15;31;01 - 00;15;50;02
Kamau High
And, and now when I talk to my, my and my superiors, I say, like, listen, we are we were letting some people come back into the office, and I go, like, I'm good. I will come in for meetings. You know, we want to do a team building exercise. I will take my reporters out for lunch. But on a day to day basis, I like you.

00;15;50;03 - 00;16;09;09
Kamau High
You know where to find me. I'm at home. Yeah. And, so that that that change has been sort of the biggest one to me. The one thing, the one thing that I miss the most about the newsroom being physically in the newsroom is the neural network. It was sort of like the ability to overhear conversations that are not meant for you.

00;16;09;09 - 00;16;29;15
Kamau High
They're not secret, but just sort of hearing what other people are working on and sort of going like, hey, that sparks an idea. Me or, oh, we're working on something similar. Maybe we should collaborate or, oh, that's a terrible idea. Please don't do that. We tried to do that. Sorry. Yeah. No, seriously, don't do that. That part I think is, is, like anyone who works in the newsroom is.

00;16;29;15 - 00;16;31;09
Kamau High
It's hard to replicate.

00;16;31;11 - 00;16;49;04
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. I miss the energy, you know, and and, you know, not with the New York Times anymore. But having not been there since February 2020, the energy, is amazing. On the positive side, and then on the sort of self interest is that I do, miss the expense account, but yes, you can't, you know, you can't discount this.

00;16;49;06 - 00;17;06;07
Kamau High
Yeah. Actually, the thing I miss, one of the other things I miss by the newsroom was we used to have everything. It's still there, but there was a space where people would bring snacks from their travels. So if you went somewhere international, you might bring back. I once brought back, chicken flavored potato chips. Just because I was like, who?

00;17;06;10 - 00;17;20;11
Kamau High
Who would flavor their potato chips like chicken? Surprisingly not so bad. But, you know, people would leave, like, treats and donuts and just unusual, interesting food items. And, and it was a good place to sort of gather and, you know, just sort of talk.

00;17;20;13 - 00;17;25;18
Paul Sullivan
Oh, yeah. And then all the books that come in and they're all on that. Yes. Oh, I want that book. There it is. I'll take it.

00;17;25;18 - 00;17;31;27
Kamau High
Oh, look at that. Look at that. Yeah. All right. Well, I wasn't going to read that one. Still not going to read it exactly.

00;17;31;29 - 00;18;13;20
Paul Sullivan
You know, one of your roles is the DNI editor for the equity and inclusion editor. And one of the things I talk about at the company, dads is that if, you know, my goal is to one make being lead that normal, but also really to set up a network where we can help people fulfill their potential, how can we expect to have, senior female executives or senior female, you know, working moms rise up in an organization if we don't have, an acknowledgment that, you know, they and their spouses need some sort of help with, with parenting and that they that it's okay if the man has the more flexible schedule.

00;18;13;20 - 00;18;27;17
Paul Sullivan
It's okay if he is the one in in support, because otherwise, you know, you look at this and like, how else are you going to be a senior, female executive? I guess you could make a lot of money, could hire people, but most of you have to have that flexibility. But we don't acknowledge that. And then we also don't.

00;18;27;17 - 00;18;42;07
Paul Sullivan
I think companies are slow to acknowledge that 2019 is not coming back. Like how we work now is is fundamentally different. And if we really, you know, you're an expert in this, you know, you know that there's tons of lip service at companies.

00;18;42;10 - 00;18;45;06
Kamau High
Oh I hear so I hear so much lip service. Non embarrassing.

00;18;45;10 - 00;18;57;26
Paul Sullivan
Right. And so how do we look at, you know parenting and shifting parenting roles as one way to help, women fulfill their, their potential.

00;18;57;28 - 00;19;19;01
Kamau High
You know, I think that as the pandemic has shown and I and not only at this time, but other companies I hear about, there really is an embrace of the work from home, which I think sort of allows a lot of this, a lot of people to succeed who who might not succeed, previously because of, parental responsibilities.

00;19;19;03 - 00;19;49;23
Kamau High
I know that, like, had the sun, like, I've had candid conversations with management where they've said, you know, we think we've actually lost out to people because pre-pandemic we weren't flexible about sort of working from home. But now that we've seen that, listen, we want to Pulitzer while working virtually so we can do it. So there there is, there's been a real sort of shift, and I think it's going to take more companies being able to sort of be flexible, maybe thinking about four day work weeks or sort of nontraditional schedules.

00;19;49;23 - 00;19;53;15
Kamau High
I mean, that's those are the sorts of things that I think people need.

00;19;53;17 - 00;20;15;17
Paul Sullivan
Plus, I have to think and again, I want your opinion on this, that the the best companies are already sort of getting in front of this and saying, if we don't, you know, adapt to the world of work today, if we don't adapt to the fact that, you know, work and home and family are never going to be separate again, they're inextricably intertwined post-pandemic.

00;20;15;20 - 00;20;23;02
Paul Sullivan
We're going to get ahead of it. We're going to lose our top performing employees because, you know, a company never loses its worst performing plan. No, nobody wants.

00;20;23;03 - 00;20;28;12
Kamau High
It to go. Yeah, they're just stuck with that. Yeah.

00;20;28;14 - 00;20;46;11
Paul Sullivan
When you look at, you know, some of the companies you've covered or some of the stories you've edited, when you think of the most progressive companies addressing the end of this or the scrambling of this, you know, work life balance. What what are they doing? What would it you don't, you know, that the proactive ones.

00;20;46;13 - 00;21;09;01
Kamau High
Well, I mean, I think in addition to sort of offering flexible schedules and sort of work from home, I think there was a real effort to diversify the workforce. And I think that sort of that plays into it by bringing in, you know, let me put it this way. I often when I sort of, I like to tell people that I can only be responsible for the people that I help get hired.

00;21;09;01 - 00;21;26;21
Kamau High
And when I see people get hired and I go like, wow, I would have preferred there was more diversity in that. You know, that's not I can't do anything about that. But what I can personally control is sort of helping to shape that pipeline of people who sort of show up, and get their resumes read and maybe get that interview.

00;21;26;24 - 00;21;38;08
Kamau High
And I think sort of diversifying our workforce even more, than it currently is sort of shows that companies can be flexible and sort of acknowledge the reality that we're living in today.

00;21;38;11 - 00;21;48;17
Paul Sullivan
What do you think of it take to make it more normal for men to have this lead that role, take on the more flexible work schedule for their wives to do what they're going to do?

00;21;48;23 - 00;22;11;27
Kamau High
What I'm I mean, I think it's going to take more of people like you. I mean, sort of people who are, you know, normalizing it. You know, when you and I were doing it, it wasn't because we thought it was cool or interesting. It was it was just something we we did, and the world was sometimes hostile to it, but it was like, there's that didn't give us an excuse to fail.

00;22;11;27 - 00;22;24;10
Kamau High
It was just sort of like, okay, the world's had a hostile. That's fine. You just got to sort of push forward. I mean, I think that's like there is a there's a stigma to being a leader. And that's unfortunate.

00;22;24;13 - 00;22;39;21
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. I say this like, you know, ten years ago as this was just starting for me, my oldest daughter is 13, the summer, I don't know if I would have been. You know, I hate to admit this. I think of myself as a pretty secure person. I don't know if I would have been, you know, secure enough to just come out and say, this is what I am.

00;22;39;21 - 00;22;58;23
Paul Sullivan
I was always like, well, yeah, you know, I'm a New York Times columnist and, and. Yeah. And also and I'm also sitting here at the ballet recital, so, but, you know, and I remember when you and I reconnected a couple years ago when you were living in the same area where I live. And it wasn't it was kind of like I was like, oh, man, it's kind of like you're talking about in the beginning, you know, the New York City moms.

00;22;58;23 - 00;23;13;22
Paul Sullivan
I'm like, that's one of my PhD buddies. Like, here we are from back in the day, from 2000, you know, back in the day. And we connected first on that work level. And then as our wives got to know each other as we did a few things together, like, I'm okay with it, he's he's, you know, we're together.

00;23;13;22 - 00;23;16;28
Paul Sullivan
We're in the same, you know, the dad tribe.

00;23;17;01 - 00;23;30;08
Kamau High
Yes. Well, I mean, I guess I guess it's of a question to you. Is that, like, what kind of what kind of what kind of people reach out to you now that this is sort of up and going, are you hearing from more dads where like, how can how can I, how can I sort of adopt this attitude?

00;23;30;15 - 00;23;30;24
Kamau High
Yeah.

00;23;30;24 - 00;23;49;25
Paul Sullivan
I mean, that's why it's been working well with sort of the online community and in these, these podcasts been great for community building because it's, you know, it's not like there's a whole pocket like you go to any town, any suburban town in America, and there's a working mom, the group, there's a stay at home mom group. There's, you know, the guys who go to work normally and or that's involved with the parent.

00;23;49;27 - 00;24;09;11
Paul Sullivan
And obviously that fourth group exists that really dads, but it's sort of under the radar and quiet to having that online. You know, community has been really vital because people are, comfortable saying, hey, this is what I do. I want to reach out. I want to be part of this. And you got any tips or what have you learned or how has it worked for you?

00;24;09;11 - 00;24;27;25
Paul Sullivan
And my goal is like, you know, to build the momentum so that it becomes, you know, more normal for people within their community. You know, even if it's, you know, only 10% of the doing whatever it is to have them come on. But I've had some weird times, come on. Where, you know, I had this guy who I've had a lot of weird times, but weird times.

00;24;27;27 - 00;24;50;03
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. Since October, when I announce that this is starting. And that was I had this guy that I've known for six, seven years. Our kids are in school, have been in and out of school together for see him around, take this next town over, see him around ever. And he comes up to me and he says, you know, I want to be part of what you're doing here, but, can you, to off the record keeping.

00;24;50;06 - 00;24;56;03
Paul Sullivan
And I was like, what are you talking are you talking about the cut to the company of dad? He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;24;56;05 - 00;24;57;26
Kamau High
Are you sure he wasn't trying to buy drugs from.

00;24;57;26 - 00;25;17;11
Paul Sullivan
You know, this is what I think, I think and I know and his, his wife, is an attorney, and he he has U.S real estate. He has a good job. He's got two daughters and it was like this, this not being comfortable enough to sort of say that he is the lead dad. And so I looked at him and said, hey man, you know you're welcome here.

00;25;17;11 - 00;25;34;15
Paul Sullivan
And you know, how do you want to interact? It's fine with me. But, you know, just, you know, this is about a community for men who are dads. We're like, we're not like taking puppies and putting him in a bag with rocks and like. Like throwing them in the river. This isn't like Cruella de Vil and hiding. And he kind of looked at me like, what are you talking about, man?

00;25;34;15 - 00;25;52;29
Paul Sullivan
I was like, anyway, you're welcome buddy. You want to come on it? Yeah. I just didn't make up your own name. But it's that type of stuff that you and I don't have it, but I want to make it more normal. More comfortable. And you know, something that, you know, couples talk about because, you know, you and I have been, you know, with our wives for a long time.

00;25;52;29 - 00;26;00;13
Paul Sullivan
Like, if you don't have these conversations, like, problems don't age well, you know, and I'm not dealing with that at all. Doesn't make the problem go away.

00;26;00;15 - 00;26;15;16
Kamau High
Yes. I have to say, I like, you know, when when you asked me to be on this podcast, you know, I was talking to my wife and daughter about it, and I found myself thinking, why is this going to sound weird saying that I'm going to be on a podcast about lead dads. And I was like, well, no, because it's true.

00;26;15;18 - 00;26;23;28
Kamau High
And they were obviously perfectly fine with it, but it did sort of cross my mind. I was like, wait, is this going to make anyone uncomfortable by saying that? But, you know, it is what it is.

00;26;24;00 - 00;26;34;09
Paul Sullivan
It is what it is. This has been awesome. Thank you for being on the Company of Dads podcast with me today. I always give my guest, the last word. So any any parting thoughts?

00;26;34;11 - 00;27;02;13
Kamau High
Yes. Go to Baltimore sun.com. Subscribe. I do I and my team and the paper as a whole do amazing work. We recently actually just put out a piece looking at how some black owned restaurants in Baltimore are facing over enforcement, by their neighbors, via, 311 calls and complaints to the liquor board. And it's a real in-depth piece.

00;27;02;16 - 00;27;10;24
Kamau High
You know, we talk to sort of leaders and people that actually happen to and, let's just put it this way, it does feature, a bag of poop on someone's steps.

00;27;10;24 - 00;27;14;19
Paul Sullivan
So, okay. Baltimore, Centcom. All right. Go to it.

00;27;14;22 - 00;27;15;18
Kamau High
Thank you very much, Paul.

00;27;15;18 - 00;27;16;10
Paul Sullivan
All right. Thank you.