EP 17: What You Say When You’re Asked What You Do

Interview with Franco Finstad / Jazz Trumpeter, City Dad, Quick-witted Storyteller

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

Franco Finstad is a dad-at-home in Manhattan, as he calls it on his LinkedIn profile. He has twins, a boy and a girl. Before they were born, he was a software engineer and a musician – trumpet being his instrument. But a funny thing happened on the way to being the Lead Dad to his twins. While he and his wife – a financial adviser – were in agreement that this was what worked for their family, it’s not been without its issues. What do you do when your wife introduces you to people at a work party and they walk away when you tell them you’re a dad-at-home? How do you adapt when you thought other caregivers would accept you in an open-minded city like New York? It’s all about how you describe what you do. And as Lead Dads know, words matter, so listen to what Franco has to say about his journey – and how he frames it to others.

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Transcript

00;00;04;28 - 00;00;26;09
Paul Sullivan
I'm Paul Sullivan, your host on the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, sublime, strange and silly aspects of being a dad in a world where men often feel they have to hide, or at least not talk about their parenting well. I know this from firsthand experience as the lead dad to my three girls, three dogs, three cats, and, somewhat improbably, three fish.

00;00;26;12 - 00;00;44;10
Paul Sullivan
I did this all while managing my career and striving to be an above average husband. One thing I know for sure about being a dad is it's not a normal role. You're not doing what dads have traditionally done. Going to work and leaving the parenting to mom or someone else. Nor are you always welcome into the world where moms are the primary caregivers.

00;00;44;16 - 00;01;09;18
Paul Sullivan
But here at the Company of Dads. Our goal is to shake all of that off and focus on what really matters family, friendship, finance, and fun. Today, my guest is Franco Finstad. Franco is a dad at home in Manhattan, as he calls it on his LinkedIn profile. He has twins, a boy and a girl before they're born. He was a software engineer for several companies and a musician, trumpet being his instrument of choice.

00;01;09;20 - 00;01;26;21
Paul Sullivan
But a funny thing happened on the way to being a dad to his twins. While he and his wife, a financial advisor, were in agreement that this was what worked for their family, it's not been without its issues. I mean, what do you do when your wife introduces you to people at work party and they walk away when you tell them that you're a dad at home?

00;01;26;23 - 00;01;48;13
Paul Sullivan
Well, if you're Franco, you think proactively you figure out what's missing. Are really dads like you and how to improve how you received. Turns out Titan to finance groove on jazz musicians. If that fails, Franco can talk about his real estate portfolio. A few apartments he and his wife Paula own his landlords. But it's weirdly, there's no words matter and portfolio gives you cover.

00;01;48;15 - 00;01;51;03
Paul Sullivan
Franco. Welcome to the Company of Dads podcast.

00;01;51;05 - 00;01;54;17
Franco Finstad
Hey, Paul, it’s great to be here. We love talking about this stuff.

00;01;54;20 - 00;02;01;10
Paul Sullivan
All right. If you were having your best day as a lead dad in New York. What would it entail?

00;02;01;12 - 00;02;24;00
Franco Finstad
Oh my God. Best day. You know, waking up, making the kids breakfast, going to the park. Finding some other dads to hang out with. You know, whether that's going to Dave and Busters together playing sports, having lunch at the pub, coming back, you know, watching a movie, just doing fun kid stuff with some other dad and moms too.

00;02;24;00 - 00;02;31;20
Franco Finstad
But dads just kind of where I'm rolling these days. That would be a perfect day. Just kids playing around and hanging out with the other guys.

00;02;31;22 - 00;02;38;22
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, it sounds pretty good. You know, you've been you know, the lead dad for you. Your kids are 12 ish, 12.5, right?

00;02;38;27 - 00;02;39;20
Franco Finstad
Yeah. 12.

00;02;39;28 - 00;02;50;08
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, the whole time. So what did you think being the lead dad would be like before you did it? And what is it actually turned out to be?

00;02;50;10 - 00;03;15;22
Franco Finstad
That's a good question. I thought it was going to be a lot easier, and I thought that I would be more of a hero because not many dads do this. So I thought, I'll be so special. People will think, I'm so cool. I'll be accepted everywhere because it's so unique. But the surprise was, it's it's it was a little more foreign to people, me showing up to all the mom stuff and the nanny stuff a little more foreign than I thought.

00;03;15;22 - 00;03;32;26
Franco Finstad
So they required me to do a little more work and to dance around and find different stories and different angles to get into the social group, I suppose, and to change my story. When I talked to, people that I already knew. You know, so it was a little bit of a dance.

00;03;32;28 - 00;03;50;20
Paul Sullivan
You know, when I talked to this, this fella an earlier podcast, Brad Clontz, who used to live in Hawaii, which sounds pretty awesome, but Hawaii is, you know, far from everything. And he said being a dad in Hawaii was really tough because it's a very traditional culture, and it's a traditional culture where moms do certain thing and dads do certain things.

00;03;50;21 - 00;04;11;13
Paul Sullivan
And he lives in Boulder, Colorado. Now it's a lot more open. You know, if I were to guess, I would have thought that Manhattan might have been easier to be a dad. But what do you think are some of the hindrances that that keep men from being accepted as the primary parent in the city? As ostensibly sort of, you know, liberal and open as his manhood?

00;04;11;16 - 00;04;51;11
Franco Finstad
Well, that's a good point. You know, I've only been a lead that in Manhattan. But in my normal course of life, all of us, we travel through different. As we travel the world and be different people, we go through different, I guess social circles and traditional societies, whether, you know, we visit Asia or we go to Miami and visit the Latin America world down there and then, you know, so some of my wife's groups are from more traditional societies, I guess would be, Latin America and, so I'm able to compare the liberal Upper West Side of Manhattan to those groups.

00;04;51;13 - 00;05;14;16
Franco Finstad
And, it is easier here in Manhattan to, to come out, come out, come out of the closet as a lead dad. But still there's but but still, there's some things that I feel are immutable about human nature. That you just can't change. No matter how liberal of a neighborhood or social circle you're in. That, I don't know.

00;05;14;17 - 00;05;37;05
Franco Finstad
Women are just generally, most of the time, their primary caregivers. And this is what they do and this, and they know how to do it. And, even in liberal Manhattan, I bump into that. You know, when you when the classic things, you go to a park, there's a big group of nannies over there and there's no man around, you know, even though you're Upper West Side of Manhattan or a big group of moms, you're the only dad.

00;05;37;05 - 00;05;44;08
Franco Finstad
You got to go in there and start talking to them and like, have a have a inviting, make yourself inviting and have a good story for them.

00;05;44;11 - 00;05;48;26
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, they have like a good you have like a good icebreaker line when you go into that group.

00;05;48;29 - 00;05;53;05
Franco Finstad
Oh my gosh. Geez I don't, I don't, I don't know.

00;05;53;07 - 00;06;06;17
Paul Sullivan
Because I mean I'll ultimately you just want your kids to be able to play with their kids and you wanna, you know, pass the time, you know, talking while your kids are doing whatever they're doing. So I didn't know if you had any, like, hacks over the years to sort of I'll.

00;06;06;19 - 00;06;21;09
Franco Finstad
I'm I am really good at it, you know, pick up and drop off where it's all moms and nannies and parks. I am really good. I, I think I've internalized I can't even think of one, but it's just come up and say, well, which kid is yours? Oh, that guy's cute. Does he do you like to play ball?

00;06;21;09 - 00;06;37;07
Franco Finstad
Does he do this? Where does he go to school? You know, what's you know, what are the where do you guys live? It's just super easy. Yeah. I don't talk about sports and I don't talk about all that guy stuff, whereas it was a group of dads, I do. Hey, man, you see that game or something like that?

00;06;37;07 - 00;06;56;04
Franco Finstad
So I have to like, quickly, you know, I guess we all do that. Group group dynamics, you figure out like, yo, kind of like you're in the jungle. Who's my group? How do I talk to this person? How do I talk to this person? I remember when I was working in the workforce, I worked in cubicles, and we all probably have done that at some point.

00;06;56;06 - 00;07;14;17
Franco Finstad
Yeah. And I remember this. This is like 30 years ago, but I go to a woman's cubicle. I would talk a little differently. Oh, hey, how you doing? Can I have that little thing? And if I go to a guy's cubicle. Hey, man, you got that? Can you, you know, show me this thing. Yeah. You already talk differently to different groups, so now it's just heightened when you approach a different group.

00;07;14;21 - 00;07;19;07
Franco Finstad
But as far as that pickup line, you just talk about the kids and then you're in there.

00;07;19;09 - 00;07;33;28
Paul Sullivan
A stranger in a strange land. Yeah. Has it gotten easier over the 12 years? You know, your kids are, you know, at school, people are used to seeing you. Do you find, you know, the other parent or sort of more welcoming? You know, I was just.

00;07;34;00 - 00;08;00;04
Franco Finstad
Saying that it hasn't gotten easier. I thought here 12 years and it would get easier. No it hasn't. It's gotten a little easier in the sense that I'm a known quantity at both my kids schools and, the kids are I go to playgrounds. But I was a known quantity of play at the playgrounds. So that that has gotten easier cause I have a crew and they know I'm cool, they know I'm the first responder and I'm a contact to go to, so that part's easier.

00;08;00;04 - 00;08;15;03
Franco Finstad
But in general, out in groups that I don't know where, I don't have a track record with them. It's the same. It's like like the needle hasn't moved in the past 12 years in our society that, you know, that that makes it easier in that way.

00;08;15;05 - 00;08;29;27
Paul Sullivan
Do you think anything changed, from Covid? You know, the the sort of the way we worked, in 2019, the way kids went to school in 2019 versus now is that sort of move things forward for for being a leader?

00;08;29;29 - 00;08;48;04
Franco Finstad
You know, that's a good point. I'll tell you. I think that is easier now that all these meetings at the schools, all these, you know, parent coffees, I well, one thing is they don't call them moms coffees anymore. I call them pair of coffee, so that's nice. I appreciate that nod to the dads. So that has made it easier.

00;08;48;04 - 00;09;09;24
Franco Finstad
Instead of me getting up and going to a cafe and and roll with 12 moms and all the awkwardness that's involved in that, if you just do a zoom call, it's much easier. And I must do 3 or 4 zoom calls a day for parents association stuff. And, you know, it is easier. It's a little more, you're a little more protected behind the computer and on the zoom call.

00;09;09;24 - 00;09;13;04
Franco Finstad
So, you know what? I think that might have made it easier.

00;09;13;06 - 00;09;35;04
Paul Sullivan
So I tell this story. This is my, third go around as a class parent and, I thought after the second one, I was done because, you know, my three kids, two are very close in age. And the other ones, you have a lot younger. And in a I did one for the oldest daughter. And then of course, the second one said, well, come on, dad, you did it for her.

00;09;35;07 - 00;09;49;19
Paul Sullivan
You had to be the class parent for me. It it wait for it. It's not fair. And it's like, okay, fine. And so now my oldest daughter, who's in sixth grade, she asked me, she said, Will you be the class parent now is, you know, is yeah, our kids are about the same age. Our oldest have same it.

00;09;49;21 - 00;10;06;14
Paul Sullivan
When you have a daughter who's a tween and she asks you to do something, you immediately say yes. And I was like, sure, I'll be a class parent. And then it's like, oh God, what did I get myself into? Why did I do this? And we're on, like you said, instead of everyone being in the auditorium or whatever, and you're sitting around, you're doing it on zoom.

00;10;06;14 - 00;10;24;10
Paul Sullivan
And the first zoom, it was, you know, the parents association. It's not like the moms. I say it's the parent association. We have this meeting and it's all the sort of middle school class parents. And they we go around, we introduce ourselves, and then they the person lady says, all right, that's great. Mom's so good to see all of you moms out there today.

00;10;24;10 - 00;10;39;06
Paul Sullivan
And I'm like, what is is my zoom not working? Is it not worth. And it's like, I didn't mean any ill will by it, but it just was sort of reflexive to say, all right moms, let's go. So and I felt like, you know, press and about like dad and dad and dad.

00;10;39;08 - 00;11;00;21
Franco Finstad
You know. Absolutely. That isn't just never going to change. That's there's just human nature. Some things about human nature not going to change about women and children, you know, moms coffees and that, that kind of stuff. I'm not sure. You know, there's a word going around in the, maybe in the past ten, 15 years called microaggressions, the micro inequities, right?

00;11;00;21 - 00;11;23;05
Franco Finstad
In the workplace. You've heard that word. Sure. And this might fall into there like when I go out into the parenting world with moms and nannies. You know, most moms, oh, all the moms are cool. Everything. But they're these little micro things that happen like no eye contact or some body language that that shows that they're uncomfortable with me being there.

00;11;23;07 - 00;11;45;12
Franco Finstad
And then the words they use mommy me yoga them, mommy and me that like that. So. And over time I pick up on it and it becomes a it is a concrete thing that the eye contact, the, the, the invite to to lunches or the tea, the to come over to my house for tea. Of course, you're not going to get those invites as a dad.

00;11;45;13 - 00;11;47;09
Franco Finstad
So, so I don't know, I.

00;11;47;09 - 00;12;04;05
Paul Sullivan
Guess I don't I would challenge on like, this is what I want to do with the company of dads. Like why not? Like we're just parents. We're not coming over for something. It's just some sort of liaison. We're coming over to get together to sort of talk about our kids, to talk about parenting, to be part of this school community.

00;12;04;05 - 00;12;09;04
Paul Sullivan
And yes, we're in 2022, yet it still is. It's still a challenge.

00;12;09;07 - 00;12;30;25
Franco Finstad
It is a challenge. I it definitely I definitely have had some totally cool mom friends where I can go sit and have tea and watching kids play around in the middle of it. And it's wonderful. But, that's a minority. It's just it's just harder to make that happen because there's just not there's another it's hard to find moms like that.

00;12;30;25 - 00;12;49;26
Franco Finstad
And, I would happily do it with dads, but as we know. But part of the reason for this for your company is that, there's just not enough dads around to do that with. Of course, I love to sit down, have a beer with a dad, and watch kids, but, But you're right in the abstract, there should be no barrier to that because we're all just want our kids to have fun.

00;12;49;26 - 00;13;12;06
Franco Finstad
Especially when you have toddlers. You know, it's so hard to get through the day before they go to preschool. You have these yawning 14 hour days. How am I going to take care of this? You know, these two little kids, you know, and I, I definitely had help from from, my wife's mom and from my mom and and nannies and stuff, but still, I wanted to be the primary guy.

00;13;12;13 - 00;13;25;20
Franco Finstad
So you still have to fill up this 14 hour day. It would have been so much easier to go and hang out with these moms, but it's just it's just hard to make that happen. You have to find these unicorn moms who are like, yeah, and and the unicorn mom has to have a husband who's cool. Oh, yeah.

00;13;25;22 - 00;13;27;05
Franco Finstad
You can come over and have dinner with you.

00;13;27;07 - 00;13;55;13
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when I talk about the company of dads, I say like, yeah, like the primary group is men who are the dads. But I say, look, if you want to have senior female executives in the workforce, it's not really going to happen. If they want to be moms, unless they have a husband who has, a more flexible schedule or a husband who's willing to be a lead dad to talk to me about how you being the lead dad has, you know, in a sense, you know, benefited your family.

00;13;55;13 - 00;14;09;16
Paul Sullivan
It's allowed your wife to do what she wants to do. It's allowed you to do what you want to do. So I do both to sort of, you know, fulfill what you you want to achieve in your life. But how was you, you know, electing to be that, that lead that early on? How is it helped the family unit and what your wife does for for.

00;14;09;22 - 00;14;28;13
Franco Finstad
She's I think it's been huge. Of course I don't know what the other path was. We could have completely out sourced it and staffed up and I could have continued to work, but that's just not how I wanted to do my kid's childhood. That's not how my childhood was. My mom was at home till I was like ten.

00;14;28;15 - 00;14;44;14
Franco Finstad
So that was on the table, like probably the third date with my wife. Like, look, you know, if we get married and have kids, I just want to look out in the future. You got your job, but better than mine. I'm going to quit and stay home. Is that okay? That was established very early on because I.

00;14;44;17 - 00;14;48;03
Paul Sullivan
And she said yes. She was like, okay, that makes sense. Or was like, yeah.

00;14;48;03 - 00;15;11;03
Franco Finstad
That'd be great. Super fantastic. She wasn't weird about it. It's nontraditional. She was fun. So that that was breaks. I think maybe some people don't don't want that nontraditional family, but I think it's been great. I think having a parent at home, I don't know, I think it's I think it's very important and, nice to have you have to have it.

00;15;11;03 - 00;15;28;24
Franco Finstad
I think another consistent caregiver would be just fine, as many, many of the families we know do that. But that's not how I wanted to do it. So it was all upfront on the table. And it's been wonderful. I mean, what a gift to be able to see every moment of your child as a man. That's very unusual in the history of humankind.

00;15;28;26 - 00;15;37;02
Franco Finstad
For a man to do it all, like changing the diapers and going, taking them, taking them out and bringing them back to school and everything else. It's been fantastic.

00;15;37;05 - 00;15;50;16
Paul Sullivan
Well, I say, a friend of mine jokes that, he said, you know, you know, Benally dad used to be, every, every man did it. And I said, what are you talking about? I said, yeah, like, back in caveman times, like you had to take your kid with you, or else, like, some animal would eat your kid, so.

00;15;50;23 - 00;16;09;03
Paul Sullivan
And we, we laugh about that. How, you know, the whole productive, the protective instinct. You know, when you're the dad and there's a Brontosaurus coming after you, you have to take your kid. But you're right. It's just not it's become, you know, not traditional. And I think it's also become something like, again, we're in 2022. I have three daughters.

00;16;09;03 - 00;16;29;22
Paul Sullivan
You have one daughter and son. I think if my daughter wants to to to to be apart one day, great. If my, my daughter wants to work in financial services and, and go out and do what she wants to do, that's great. And so, you know, how do we sort of normalize that, that that conversation? I think you're in a unique position that early on, you and your wife actually talked about it openly.

00;16;29;22 - 00;16;33;11
Paul Sullivan
It wasn't something it was a decision that you made together. Correct?

00;16;33;13 - 00;16;47;24
Franco Finstad
Yeah. Totally upfront. And I, you know, I'm I'm, I the kids were born. I was 41 years old, so I had thought about it a lot, and I was ready to do this. It wasn't like a something. I was 22 and it hadn't thought about. I had thought a lot about it. But back to the other point.

00;16;47;27 - 00;17;08;15
Franco Finstad
I think dads being around the kids a lot really is how it was done for most of human history. I think the Industrial Revolution changed it back when we were all farmers working the land or hunter gatherers. We took our kids with us. The kids work the farm with us, with dad side by side. Industrial revolution, we all worked in factories.

00;17;08;15 - 00;17;27;14
Franco Finstad
You all went. There was a separation between the home and the work, maybe around 1800. That's when I think it changed. And that was one of the inspirations, I believe, of the Boy Scouts in the early 1900s, that dads should spend more time with their boys because dads are going to work in factories 100 years of that, they.

00;17;27;14 - 00;17;51;28
Franco Finstad
So you know what? They don't have to go and teach boys how to be men. So let's create this thing called Boy Scouts. I'm pretty sure that that's was the the the idea behind the Boy Scout being a lead dad is actually very natural. Taking your kids with you, doing all the stuff you usually do in our, in our urban sense, that would be like going to the grocery or, you know, go to the market or getting some exercise.

00;17;52;01 - 00;17;53;12
Franco Finstad
That's that's what it is.

00;17;53;14 - 00;18;19;27
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. When you, you know, you guys had this conversation, you made the decision together as you said, you're 41. You thought about it a lot. But we talked before, you know, what was it like those first couple of years? I mean, was it easy just to become the lead dad, or were there moments where, you know, you missed your, your, your previous life or moments when you were, you know, you felt kind of alone because because they were, you know, the lead dad in the world of of mostly female caregivers.

00;18;19;29 - 00;18;40;04
Franco Finstad
Yeah. With the first the first six month I there was some elation. Oh, my God, I can't believe that this has come to fruition. I can stay home with these two infants and be their primary giver. It was great. But that quickly, after a couple months, I started to lose my mind. I think all primary caregivers, men and women do that.

00;18;40;04 - 00;19;01;16
Franco Finstad
You feel isolated. You don't have all the all the, measurable accomplishments and success and self-esteem that is derived from work. So that's all just all primary care givers to even the moms that their primary caregivers. But then I didn't have the support group. There was no dads around. It was really hard. So I started to get incredibly depressed.

00;19;01;16 - 00;19;20;10
Franco Finstad
Just after a quick six months. So I talked to a bunch of people. So what am I going to do? This is not good for my kids. If you're if I'm depressed. So so you got to develop some other thing outside of caregiving. And for me, I revived my, my, music career. I played trumpet, so I started to play.

00;19;20;13 - 00;19;34;26
Franco Finstad
I started a jazz quartet and a brass quintet to play music again. And then slowly, Paul and I built up this real estate portfolio that I can do and do the kid stuff at the same time that my time is. I can manage my own time.

00;19;34;29 - 00;19;42;27
Paul Sullivan
I kind of have this image of you, like, if somebody doesn't pay the rent, you show up at your trumpet and you just start blastin it away so you know.

00;19;43;00 - 00;19;48;17
Franco Finstad
Yeah, that would do it. I'd probably yeah, I'd probably get some three, one one phone calls, but I could try that.

00;19;48;20 - 00;20;04;28
Paul Sullivan
But and it's serious. I mean you're not, you know, just some guy who said to take up the trumpet. You have a graduate degree in music. So music was a passion, I know. Talk to me about, you know, how you got to come back to this thing that at some point in your life, you'd you'd really be pursued.

00;20;04;28 - 00;20;08;14
Paul Sullivan
You've been passion about. Not now you get to do it again with with kids.

00;20;08;17 - 00;20;32;02
Franco Finstad
Yeah. It was it was a wonderful thing. I was very ambitious from age 14 to 26 to be a classical trumpet player. It brought me it brought me to New York. I wanted to play in the New York Philharmonic. Very ambitious practice all the time my whole life now, when I was 26, after doing it for a few years in New York and California, I was like, this, you're in as a as a journeyman musician, you're always kind of skirting the poverty level.

00;20;32;02 - 00;20;55;11
Franco Finstad
I couldn't handle that. I quit, went to software development. So for like 15 years I was just a programmer and I managed programmers, software development. And I didn't touch the trumpet for like 15 years until I was 41, 26 to 41. But then I had this. I said I had to do something. I have to revive some thinking that gets me out of the caregiving world, which is difficult for everybody.

00;20;55;14 - 00;21;16;17
Franco Finstad
And, I just started these groups up again in New York is a place to do it. I mean, there's so much music here, so many consumers of music. It was a great gift and it was wonderful. To coincide with having small children because I my philosophy, if you want your kids to do something, whatever it is, play piano, do well in school, read books.

00;21;16;20 - 00;21;33;15
Franco Finstad
It doesn't really work to tell them to do it. You have to model it and show them. So I would bring my guys over. I still to this day bring my guys over. We set up in the living room since the kids were six months old, and we start playing, whether it's jazz or classical and they hear it, they come get to know the guys.

00;21;33;22 - 00;21;54;15
Franco Finstad
This is something daddy does. This is something people do. Yeah, and it's good and it's wholesome. So I've continued to like model that with having, bringing, having rehearsals in my house and I bring them to performances sometimes to see what daddy does, which is very good. So daddy's just not a change in diapers, you know, he actually does something and that's good.

00;21;54;17 - 00;22;14;06
Franco Finstad
So it's actually been a great gift to revive this at this time in their life, to model all these things so that that's how I think I'm no child psychologist, but how children learn, they they model your behavior, how you treat your friend, how you treat your wife, what you do in the house, what your hobbies are. So I think that it's been a wonderful thing.

00;22;14;06 - 00;22;16;15
Franco Finstad
And then I'm happy you asked about that.

00;22;16;17 - 00;22;31;00
Paul Sullivan
I mean, I couldn't agree more, like I just got asked about, you know, of, you know, chores and. Yeah, this interview, how do you how do you teach kids to do chores? And I said, of course, you, you know, you sit on the couch and you yell at them to to clean everything up. And yeah, I said, no, that doesn't work.

00;22;31;00 - 00;22;51;01
Paul Sullivan
That doesn't work at all. That's a stupid answer. No, what you do is, you know, you do the dishes, you do the dishes, and then you get them to help you do the dishes. You load in the dishwasher. You get them to help you unload the dishwasher. And pretty soon you've modeled this behavior. And it's, you know, if you make your bed every morning and then you say to your kids, look, let me show you how to make your bed.

00;22;51;01 - 00;22;51;15
Paul Sullivan
And then.

00;22;51;15 - 00;22;52;13
Franco Finstad
Exactly.

00;22;52;15 - 00;22;58;09
Paul Sullivan
Ask them to, to, to make their bed. But it's like you can't be the message person in the world and yell at your kids to clean up the room.

00;22;58;09 - 00;23;21;09
Franco Finstad
They're exactly right. And it's it's an extra tricky dance to hear in, in, in Manhattan, because we could probably find somebody to make all the beds, dishes and to deliver our food, and we would never have to get out of the sofa. So you have to, like, make it look. No, no, no, you mean if you have a housekeeper?

00;23;21;09 - 00;23;33;12
Franco Finstad
No, don't do that. Don't do that. The kids are going to do this. I'm going to make my own bed. I'm going to show them. So it's a little. You got to turn it upside down. You know, you have to like, keep the staff at bay if you have step. You know.

00;23;33;16 - 00;23;45;19
Paul Sullivan
I love the image of this. Like the Manhattan bed maker who shows up, every morning at, like, 845. Makes all the beds you like. Well, and the kids are up in arms. You like what the bed is made. The bed maker had the day off, you know, but it's like.

00;23;45;20 - 00;24;02;07
Franco Finstad
Exactly. And and we have. Right. We have cats. So you can get it to someone to come feed the cats. And you can have a dog walker to do all that. But do you really want to do that? It's a billion dog walkers in, Manhattan, but I think, I don't know, I think I make my kids walk the dogs.

00;24;02;10 - 00;24;18;26
Paul Sullivan
100%. So like, I have my three daughters, we have cats and so the oldest is responsible for cleaning the litter box and feeding the cats. The middle one, is responsible for feeding the dogs and the fish and the little one, because, you know, we live in Connecticut. We have a yard. The little one goes out with me to pick the poop up.

00;24;18;26 - 00;24;32;07
Paul Sullivan
And that's the one thing I balk at because I see, like some of my neighbors, they got the guy, the truck that shows up and they pick up the poop and they come on, can we do that? My wife is like, no, that's ridiculous. That's that's the most, you know, suburban thing ever. But I'm out there with the little one who loves finding the dog poop.

00;24;32;07 - 00;24;36;09
Paul Sullivan
And then I pick, I see it, yeah, but teaching a lesson like that's doing it, moms doing it.

00;24;36;11 - 00;24;52;14
Franco Finstad
Yeah, they. And they have to see you picking up the poop too. I think it's very important, you know, all these things. We I think I'm doing the right thing. I think it's important. But when, when can you declare victory as a parent? Well, this don't wait till they're 30 is okay. Yeah. I did a good job. I'm not sure, you know.

00;24;52;14 - 00;24;57;29
Franco Finstad
Yeah. I have to wait until they have kids and tell me how I did. When do you wait? Could you declare victory?

00;24;57;29 - 00;25;13;22
Paul Sullivan
Well, this is when Mitt Romney was running for president. He has 4 or 5 boys. And somebody asked him that question. Is it? Yeah. I got to figure it out. Like, really? It's yeah. You do your best. You really apply yourself and then you wait 25 years and you see how it turned out. So it's like pretty honest answer to pretty.

00;25;13;22 - 00;25;19;22
Paul Sullivan
I guess I have to answer to any of you, any of your kids, either of your kids, they get into to music, to either of them play.

00;25;19;25 - 00;25;36;27
Franco Finstad
Yeah. One of them, my boy Paul, he, Ball. He he plays tenor sax. Oh, know he loves it. Victoria didn't really get into it, but ball ball I, I think it I, I'm not sure it's going to stick. I think it's going to stick. I have to get him into a band for the social aspect of music, which was very important for me.

00;25;36;29 - 00;25;38;17
Franco Finstad
Yeah. So he's playing tenor sax now.

00;25;38;18 - 00;25;42;27
Paul Sullivan
He just told me he couldn't play trumpet like dad's got trumpet. They could be a trumpet player in the family.

00;25;42;27 - 00;25;51;13
Franco Finstad
That's too much head to head, you know, like I don't. I don't think Tom Brady's having his kids play quarterback right now.

00;25;51;15 - 00;26;15;08
Paul Sullivan
Talk to me about you know, one of the things I you know I joke about it. But as I look back I'm not you know particularly proud of it now you know. But for the 13 years I was a columnist for the New York Times, I was a lead dad for almost that entire period. And I always lead with, I'm a I'm a New York Times columnist, even if I'm sitting at the pediatrician, I'm a New York Times columnist, and I'm at the ballet and I care make me.

00;26;15;10 - 00;26;31;08
Paul Sullivan
And part of the impetus for the company of dads was Covid and lacking a community. And I said, you know, I've got to play this community because it's what I want. I want to find a community of other men like me who are stepping up as lead dads, who are supporting their wives and doing that. They're supporting their families.

00;26;31;15 - 00;26;51;09
Paul Sullivan
But, you know, it was a big step to not be a New York Times columnist anymore. Tell me the story about how, you know, you sort of came up with it. Obviously, you do own real estate. You have tennis. So this is not, a fiction. But tell me about the early days when you would be at these parties with your wife and you'd say you were a dad at home or stay at home, dad, the dad, whatever you said.

00;26;51;12 - 00;27;03;01
Paul Sullivan
And there was this moment where it didn't work versus when you started saying, you know. Oh, yeah, I have a real estate paper. How did you feel the the dynamic, shift with those other guys you were talking?

00;27;03;01 - 00;27;22;14
Franco Finstad
Yeah, that's a very good question. I when I first quit to take care of the kids when they were born, I definitely, it's more of an open book. I just said I this is my job. I am a stay at home dad, and I switch and I was okay switching my identity. I'm not a musician anymore. I'm not a software developer, and I.

00;27;22;14 - 00;27;46;01
Franco Finstad
This is before I developed a real estate portfolio. I am a dad and I would go out to these parties or whatever social events and say that now here in the Upper West Side of Manhattan, it worked and it was cool. Most of the time it was cool. But then there's other more traditional situations like, yeah, at meeting, people in the, finance world or in other countries.

00;27;46;04 - 00;28;11;12
Franco Finstad
I would, I would say it and I would get these blank stares and they'd be like, but what do you really do? And then I really quickly thought, okay, actually, I'm, I'm a musician, and I just do this, you know, I help with the kids on the side. Quick pivot. Yeah. Really quick. And then then when we bought our first, apartment here in the city to to be a landlord, that really resonated.

00;28;11;12 - 00;28;34;09
Franco Finstad
If I said I own apartments. And then I learned in the finance markets, I own a portfolio, then I was totally cool. Then we could talk forever about real estate portfolio stuff, even though I was kind of the muscle, I wasn't like the one doing all the all the financial part of it. So I started out singing to stay at home dad, but I quickly realized that doesn't resonate.

00;28;34;12 - 00;28;41;29
Franco Finstad
And now I kind of know when to say it and what kind of groups will it'll resonate with and when to not do it. I'm really good at that these days.

00;28;42;02 - 00;29;05;10
Paul Sullivan
It's one of those things where, you know, my hobby is, is golf. I like to play golf. And, you know, until I left the New York Times to start The Company of Dads, now everybody knows what I'm doing. But before I did, you know, I could never imagine sitting there having a beer after a round of golf and checking my email and being exasperated, saying like, oh my God, do you have any idea how hard it is to get a little girl into ballet in this town?

00;29;05;12 - 00;29;27;24
Paul Sullivan
Like my buddies, they would look at me like, well, I thought, this is your first beer. Like, what? What? Are you okay? Did you have a stroke? What happened? And it just that moment where I. Come on, we're not. We're talking about our kids. We're talking about our kids that we love. And you know, what better example are we setting than being able to sort of not be that bumbling dad, that sort of comic book dad who can't figure anything out?

00;29;27;24 - 00;29;33;17
Paul Sullivan
We're just the dad is steps in. And in doing that, we feel fulfilled. It's good for our family and it's good for our spouse.

00;29;33;17 - 00;29;53;14
Franco Finstad
Yeah, yeah, that was a surprise. And that was a little painful. The same experience you had where you go to a party, you go to like happy hour after work and you talk about your day and these dads talk about their workday and they talk what they did at work. And you talk about your workday, which was changing diapers and pushing the kids around to the park.

00;29;53;16 - 00;30;11;00
Franco Finstad
You just can't do it. They they like I got blank stares, walked away, lost interest. I thought, My God, I'm going to lose all these friends. And they're kind of new acquaintances. My, my. Yeah, my other friends didn't care about and I quit. I, I you just can't talk about that. You know, you really have to be careful who you're talking about.

00;30;11;00 - 00;30;33;25
Franco Finstad
Your your dad day with. And I think it's it's human nature. It hasn't changed. I think it's ever going to change. I would like it to change, but I think that's just how it goes. Men and women, they talk about different things. It's just, I had this same experience and that's still got it painful because it because you really do want to talk about your day sometimes a day with toddlers is incredibly exhausting, and you got to get it off your chest.

00;30;33;25 - 00;30;43;23
Franco Finstad
Sure. So, you know, I find I, I found I call my mom and talk to her about it, you know, and someone who's willing to listen to it.

00;30;43;25 - 00;30;47;05
Paul Sullivan
You know, now that your kids are 12, so are they in sixth grade or seventh grade?

00;30;47;07 - 00;30;47;21
Franco Finstad
Sixth grade?

00;30;47;23 - 00;31;03;09
Paul Sullivan
Sixth grade. Yeah. You know, people all I'm going to ask you the question that I always get, get asked. And that is, you know, what do your kids think about you being the lead dad? You know, is it a is it okay? Like, what are their friends think? You know that you're the lead that what would you know?

00;31;03;09 - 00;31;09;11
Paul Sullivan
I'll answer it after you answer. But. But what what would you know? What do you think your kids think about you being the the primary parent?

00;31;09;13 - 00;31;28;14
Franco Finstad
I think they are quite proud of it. They've never said they were bullied or made fun of or anything. I think they're quite proud of it that my dad is the guy. Call my dad if you want to have a playdate with me. I think they're proud of it. But, you know, if I were a little, fly on the playground, maybe they would say something different.

00;31;28;17 - 00;31;58;25
Franco Finstad
Now. You know, out of the mouths of babes. Come, come. Truths I have heard when the kids were smaller, their friends saying, what's your dad? Is what? What's your dad doing? What does the what? So I have heard it from their friends. Yeah. So it it might be out there, but as far as I can tell, my kids are very proud because they think it's really unusual and I work extra hard as a parent and a class dad of doing all the activity and stuff.

00;31;58;25 - 00;32;17;25
Franco Finstad
So I feel like I'm the cool parent, so I think they appreciate that I work extra hard. It's kind of like someone who's disabled and they're on the, you know, basketball court. They work extra hard to like to, to show their competence. And that's how this is like a being a dad, dad, a lead dads like a disability.

00;32;17;28 - 00;32;22;04
Franco Finstad
And you work extra hard to be the best class parents in the world.

00;32;22;06 - 00;32;40;03
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, I, I try to be really nonchalant about it. I like. Yeah, of course. Of course I'm here. And I just sit down because otherwise it kind of normalizes it. Like, how do I normalize this? And then it's like, all right, just like you like, I'll take on these extra things, but like, my daughter's no, like, okay, you know, call my dad, he'll get this organized and they'll, you know, I have control over my schedule.

00;32;40;03 - 00;32;53;07
Paul Sullivan
My wife has like, your wife has less control over her schedule. And so they're happy. I think for them, they're happy that they have, sort of go to parent who can help them, you know, organize their, their, their little eyes, which are super important to them.

00;32;53;07 - 00;33;02;21
Franco Finstad
Yeah. And if you're, if you're chill about it and you don't broadcast the awkwardness of it, then everything goes just fine. You know? Yeah, that's kind of my approach.

00;33;02;24 - 00;33;15;22
Paul Sullivan
Franco, this been awesome. I always give my guest, the last word to tell me what some some parting thoughts and some lead dad wisdom from from 2012 years of this in in Manhattan.

00;33;15;25 - 00;33;43;00
Franco Finstad
My late dad wisdom is there's no substitute for time. You know, you got to spend the time with your kids. I hope there'll be more dads out there. Taking on this role. And time is precious. Because now my kids are tweens, and I can see them taking off and, being around less. But the time spent it's it's money in the bank when they're young, whether you're dating or your mom or grandma or whatever.

00;33;43;02 - 00;33;45;11
Franco Finstad
Spend time with your kids.

00;33;45;13 - 00;33;49;29
Paul Sullivan
Frank. Often. Dad, thanks for being a guest on the Company of Dads podcast. I appreciate your time today.

00;33;50;02 - 00;33;51;04
Franco Finstad
Thanks a lot. Balls are great.