EP19: The Funniest Lead Dad in America Shares His Secrets

Interview with JR Havlan / 8-Time Emmy Award-Winning Comedy Writer, Lead Dad

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

A funny thing happened on the way to J.R. Havlan using his college degree to get a job on Wall Street: the stock market crash of 1987. With every offer evaporating, he did the next logical thing and went into comedy. While he surely would have been the funniest guy at the water cooler, he also was legit, All-Pro funny. After doing the rounds at New York’s comedy clubs – and faxing, yes, faxing, jokes into shows – he landed a writing gig on The Daily Show, when Craig Kilborn was the \host. Then a guy named Jon Stewart came along and the show took off. J.R., who has won eight Emmy Awards (but who’s counting), spent 18 years there. He had other writing jobs afterwards, including at The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon, but as his kids became school aged, he opted to write for himself so he could be the Lead Dad to his son and daughter. This also allows his wife to go all in on her career in school nutrition. Listen to JR’s tips on shrugging off PTA slights, immersing himself in his kids schools and creating shelf space in a Manhattan apartment for his Emmys.

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Transcript

00;00;05;18 - 00;00;26;24
Paul Sullivan
I'm Paul Sullivan, your host on the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, sublime, strange and silly aspects of being a dad in a world where men often feel they have to hide, or at least not talk about their parenting role. I know this from firsthand experience as a dad to my three girls, three dogs, three cats, and, somewhat remarkably, three fish who are still alive.

00;00;26;27 - 00;00;43;24
Paul Sullivan
I did this all while managing my career and striving to be an above average husband. One thing I know for sure about being a dad is it's not a normal role. You're not doing what dads have traditionally done. Going to work and leaving the parenting to mom or someone else. Nor are you always welcome into the world where moms are the primary caregivers.

00;00;44;00 - 00;01;05;25
Paul Sullivan
But here at the Company of dad, our goal is to shake all that off and focus on what really matters. Family, friendship, finance and fun. Today, my guest is JR Havlan, a comedy writer turned former comedy writer and of course, Billy Dad. J.R. was a head writer for The Daily Show, and Jon Stewart was the host. During those 18 years, he won eight Emmy Awards.

00;01;05;28 - 00;01;28;01
Paul Sullivan
He wrote for two Academy Awards show, one when crash won Best Picture, and again with No Country for Old Men, won two movies that are not funny at all. He's written books, consulted for The Tonight Show, and then Stand up around New York and on several late night shows. He also has two children, ages ten and 12, and is a dad to them and his wife, who run the school food program.

00;01;28;03 - 00;01;31;13
Paul Sullivan
Welcome to the show, JR. Thanks for joining me.

00;01;31;16 - 00;01;35;16
JR Havlan
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I love it. I have two corrections.

00;01;35;19 - 00;01;36;05
Paul Sullivan
Oh, one.

00;01;36;05 - 00;01;38;26
JR Havlan
Correction, one correction, one edit.

00;01;38;29 - 00;01;42;23
Paul Sullivan
That that No Country for Old Men was really a funny film. They're going to say.

00;01;42;25 - 00;02;01;21
JR Havlan
No, I have a good story about how they are Bardem though. But the, you know, the correction is that I was not the head writer. People like to say that, but I was not. I was a head writer of of shows after The Daily Show, but never of The Daily Show. So I like to make that clear because it's a, it's a, it's a distinctly different job from being staff writer.

00;02;01;24 - 00;02;13;09
JR Havlan
And, so out of respect for the people who were that, I always like to make that clear. Secondly, I want to do a little, rewrite on your, on your basic intro for the show. You want to hear it?

00;02;13;11 - 00;02;14;07
Paul Sullivan
Sure.

00;02;14;10 - 00;02;22;10
JR Havlan
Okay. So you say that, you're a dad to, you know, the three kids? Three dogs. And somewhat remarkably, three fish.

00;02;22;17 - 00;02;22;27
Paul Sullivan
Yeah.

00;02;22;28 - 00;02;24;08
JR Havlan
Who are still alive?

00;02;24;10 - 00;02;24;20
Paul Sullivan
Yes.

00;02;24;20 - 00;02;32;19
JR Havlan
I think you should say three kids, three dogs and three fish who are somewhat remarkably, still alive.

00;02;32;22 - 00;02;37;10
Paul Sullivan
All right. Yeah. That's it. And we'll we'll take you in the writers room. Let's. That's just.

00;02;37;10 - 00;02;39;10
JR Havlan
An example of why I get the big buck or.

00;02;39;10 - 00;02;41;06
Paul Sullivan
Hash it out in the writers room, I like that.

00;02;41;12 - 00;02;56;23
JR Havlan
Yeah, yeah yeah I yeah, that's how it's always a different. And then, and then there's the head writer who gets to say which one you do. And that's why it, it did in the end suck not to be the head writer. And when I became a head writer in another show, it was different job.

00;02;56;23 - 00;03;01;04
JR Havlan
Very hard job, but better job, because you get to make more final choices.

00;03;01;06 - 00;03;05;08
Paul Sullivan
Did you sort of wield your power without. Without mercy?

00;03;05;10 - 00;03;05;26
JR Havlan
Of course.

00;03;06;04 - 00;03;06;12
Paul Sullivan
Yeah.

00;03;06;14 - 00;03;12;22
JR Havlan
What else is power for? Why am power, don't you. Don't you watch Game of Thrones?

00;03;12;24 - 00;03;16;16
Paul Sullivan
Is that what a comedy writing room is really like? For a show? Is it Game of Thrones?

00;03;16;22 - 00;03;23;19
JR Havlan
Like it's like Game of Thrones. Yeah. There's a lot of beheadings and, stabbings, and it.

00;03;23;19 - 00;03;26;01
Paul Sullivan
Just sets on fire all of a sudden, and,

00;03;26;03 - 00;03;26;20
JR Havlan
Yeah.

00;03;26;23 - 00;03;36;17
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. All right. I'm. I'm I'm the head writer here. I'm asking the questions. All right. I want to start with the basics. What is J.R stand for. What's J.R stand for.

00;03;36;20 - 00;03;39;24
JR Havlan
Oh well. Geez. You sound like, you know.

00;03;39;26 - 00;03;40;10
Paul Sullivan
As I see.

00;03;40;12 - 00;04;08;02
JR Havlan
Him sound like security guards at the airport, you know, every time. Yeah. It's j is an initial which is constantly hard to explain. And and and has given me grief in the past. A cop who pulled me over for, not speeding, but for following too closely. One time I got pulled over for following too closely. This is many years ago, and, since my first name is just J, just the initial J.

00;04;08;05 - 00;04;09;03
Paul Sullivan
Just initials.

00;04;09;05 - 00;04;20;16
JR Havlan
He didn't believe me. And, even though it was on my license and was threatening very aggressively to bring me in unless I revealed my first name and, you know, just.

00;04;20;19 - 00;04;22;15
Paul Sullivan
No, this just makes him just say, John.

00;04;22;15 - 00;04;37;29
JR Havlan
No, no, I mean, I told him what my name is. You know, I always say it's like G. Gordon Liddy, you know, and he's like, who's G. Gordon Liddy? And he's like, well, I can't explain that. I can't go any further than that. I don't have a boatload of examples for you, but sometimes somebody's name is just an initial.

00;04;38;01 - 00;04;45;18
JR Havlan
That's me. And, the R is for Robertson. My dad was Robert, and I'm Robertson.

00;04;45;21 - 00;04;48;01
Paul Sullivan
For real? Yeah, it sounds like very like.

00;04;48;08 - 00;04;56;27
JR Havlan
See what I mean? See what your reaction is like. Forget. All right. That's how they put around. Put your hands on the car. Right. So what they get all the time he arrested?

00;04;56;27 - 00;04;58;10
Paul Sullivan
I would have arrested you if I was him.

00;04;58;13 - 00;05;09;15
JR Havlan
No he didn't I don't I can't remember what the end of it was, except that I got a ticket for following too closely. Like, wow, I did not have anything better to do that. But.

00;05;09;17 - 00;05;19;05
Paul Sullivan
So at what point did you say, okay, I can't go through that like middle school. I can't go through middle school as J. Robertson have left. I'm just going to be J.R.. When did that? Well.

00;05;19;08 - 00;05;35;23
JR Havlan
I, I, I didn't I didn't go through middle school. Is J.R. Robertson heaven or J.R.. I went through middle school as Rob or you know, to any girl who was at least a year older than me, Robbie, you know, which was always a little bit belittling, but but to my.

00;05;35;23 - 00;05;38;16
Paul Sullivan
Oldest, at least, they were talking to you, that they're talking to you.

00;05;38;16 - 00;05;49;13
JR Havlan
Oh, they're talking to me. And my my only control over the matter was to insist that it be spelled I-e instead of y. I don't know why, but I don't know what what power that gave me.

00;05;49;16 - 00;05;54;14
Paul Sullivan
Oh my goodness. So you went to you went to college for comedy writing? Naturally, right? No. You went to college?

00;05;54;14 - 00;05;56;19
JR Havlan
Yes. Yeah. I majored in comedy writing.

00;05;56;19 - 00;06;06;19
Paul Sullivan
Comedy writing. Is it true you like like a finance or business degree? Is this I read this somewhere. Is this correct? And then. And that business is funny. So that set you up to enter the world? Yeah.

00;06;06;19 - 00;06;13;13
JR Havlan
It was a natural progression. I knew I knew what I was going to do the whole time. My parents knew the whole time I went to study finance.

00;06;13;13 - 00;06;24;02
Paul Sullivan
So you just told of your move like you move to New York, you're going to work on Wall Street, and you moved the New York part, and you worked at a comedy club on Wall Street. How did how did that how did that happen when you first moved to the city?

00;06;24;02 - 00;06;51;20
JR Havlan
And, well, Wall Street wasn't working much when I moved to New York. And that was just a matter of, timing, which I needed later for, I had very bad timing in, in business school, but fortunately better timing in comedy. Because when I graduated, I graduated in December of 1987, you know, a month and a half after the one of the biggest crashes in history.

00;06;51;23 - 00;07;07;21
JR Havlan
So I come to New York trying to find a job, and all I find are people walking out of their offices with a box, with a sad little plant hanging out of it instead. So I was I didn't think like, so there's openings there, you know what I mean? What do you do at that point?

00;07;07;24 - 00;07;13;12
Paul Sullivan
Do you think you're going to get a good desk? All the great desks had been cleared out. Yeah, it's gonna get a good office. You had all these.

00;07;13;12 - 00;07;25;29
JR Havlan
People streaming out of here. There's no way I'm not getting the corner office right. I just march right in there. You picked the right guy to replace the thousand people. You just had to fire.

00;07;26;01 - 00;07;41;28
Paul Sullivan
So what happens? It. So you're not going to get a job, working in finance? You know, there isn't really a job board that says, you know, want a stand up comedian. It's very sort of a really it's a very entrepreneurial thing to do. You've got to put yourself out there, right? You're on jokes. Get up there.

00;07;42;04 - 00;07;52;07
Paul Sullivan
How did that come about and what was the progression from that to becoming a writer on a ship?

00;07;52;10 - 00;08;18;07
JR Havlan
Well, when I was in college, I worked the whole time, and a lot of what I did was waiting tables. You know, and, and that gives you the freedom. I mean, I think it's a fairly basic college job, or at least was when I was in it. And, and so right after I was done, I had lined up this trip out here and in December to come out here and interview.

00;08;18;10 - 00;08;18;25
Paul Sullivan
Yeah.

00;08;18;28 - 00;08;37;06
JR Havlan
And then, that was already lined up. And then the crash happened, and but I still had the ticket. So I was like, well, I'm going to go to New York. Why not? I've never really been out of, Northern California, the East Bay, where I lived and grew up and went to school. And so I came out anyway, and I loved it.

00;08;37;10 - 00;09;08;06
JR Havlan
I loved it out here. I met a few people that, gave me an opportunity to, to move out here or, to make the decision to do that. So I spent a week here when home sold everything I had. Yeah, packed up a couple of boxes and suitcases and, and moved out here because I had interviewed for a job at a very fancy restaurant while I was here on that vacation, and I had suits.

00;09;08;06 - 00;09;12;10
JR Havlan
I had a suit because I was going to do. I was going to be doing business interviews.

00;09;12;13 - 00;09;15;21
Paul Sullivan
You did no interviews, though, for a job? No.

00;09;15;22 - 00;09;33;11
JR Havlan
No, everything. Not everything just fell flat. Yeah, right. Everything completely fell flat. So, you know, if I had anything lined up, it was. It was just like I was. We're going to not do that right now, you know? Contact us later. But I did have a suit, so there was a, I don't know where I found it back then.

00;09;33;11 - 00;09;40;02
JR Havlan
This is 87 or 88, so I, it was like in the Village Voice or something, you know.

00;09;40;02 - 00;09;40;22
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, yeah.

00;09;40;24 - 00;10;03;17
JR Havlan
And, just restaurant looking, you know, hiring. And there's a fancy French restaurant, like three star French restaurant called the, Aurora, owned by the same guy who owned the Rainbow Room. And I didn't know anything about any of this. The places I worked at were like, you know, you know, TGI Fridays type of places, so. But I put my suit on because I knew it was a fancy place.

00;10;03;17 - 00;10;18;06
JR Havlan
And I walk in there and, you know, there was a woman who was a maitre d, and she liked me. And I said, I'm going to come back in a month. She said, well, you can start working then, you know. And I didn't know whether or not she was going to keep her word on that. But yeah, I sold my shit, came out here.

00;10;18;06 - 00;10;39;09
JR Havlan
I think I had 3000 in my pocket and, and I, found a shitty studio apartment in the East Village and, spent all my money just getting that apartment and then started work the next day, and I started pay.

00;10;39;12 - 00;10;40;04
Paul Sullivan
Did you know anybody?

00;10;40;04 - 00;10;54;29
JR Havlan
No, I didn't know anybody. Now, I knew I came out with a friend and had met her. And who encouraged me to come out and said, you know, I actually I actually crashed with her for a week before I got my place then.

00;10;55;02 - 00;11;03;11
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. And did you know you were going to what did you think you were going to do? Did you think you're going to do stand up? Do you had any idea whatsoever?

00;11;03;13 - 00;11;19;00
JR Havlan
I thought I was going to not do what I was doing at home, which was not much of anything. And, and I grew up I was just I'd been out there the whole the whole time, you know, that's just where I always was. And I just wanted to go somewhere else. It was. It was an adventure as much as anything else.

00;11;19;01 - 00;11;49;12
JR Havlan
And see how this pans out. A friend of mine insists I had talked to him about doing stand up when I came out here, but I don't recall that. I don't remember that being like, I'm going to go make a name for my aunt. I'm going to go make it in New York kind of thing. But I was working at the restaurant for a little while, and, I mean, this was a really fancy place with captains and back waiters and, like, tuxedos the whole night, and, famous French drunk chef, I mean, was just, like, cut right out of the cloth of this fancy restaurant, like Ratatouille.

00;11;49;15 - 00;11;52;29
Paul Sullivan
I'm sorry. Like the movie Ratatouille.

00;11;53;01 - 00;12;05;12
JR Havlan
Like ratatouille. But the rat is fat and red faced and drunk and screaming at everybody. And a human with a French name. And, so a little bit was the same, but different, same premise.

00;12;05;12 - 00;12;06;19
Paul Sullivan
But.

00;12;06;21 - 00;12;30;18
JR Havlan
So there was a woman there who, Oh, she was a waiter with me. And, and, you know, I'm out there. I'm just kind of cracking wise. It's just my nature and everybody's having fun and, you know, either trying to be funny or naturally being funny or both. And, and at one point she says to me, oh, she shows me a thing, like for the new school or one of those old school, like the little classes you should.

00;12;30;23 - 00;12;50;26
JR Havlan
It's a pamphlet. All these different classes. You know how to make a basket. And just remember, they have these like, oh, can you do anything? And one of them was a stand up comedy class. And she said, you should take this. And I was like, nah, I don't think so. And then I let it go. And then like a like a month or two later, she came back at me with the thing again and said, I really think you should do this.

00;12;50;28 - 00;13;20;00
JR Havlan
And it was such a weird thing to push, you know? And so, and so I was like, you know what? I'll go. And so I did sign up for this class. The guy who gave the class was not particularly funny, which was a weird introduction. And, and he, but he, but I learned I met some other people who were doing it, and I learned where I could go to do it, and I.

00;13;20;00 - 00;13;42;20
JR Havlan
You know what the end of the class was? That you get to perform at stand up in New York, and I. And I did that. And then I just kind of started doing it, and then I would do it all the time and found all the open mics and just kept doing that and, and eventually, got a job writing jokes for Bill Maher when he was at Politically Incorrect, by asking a friend who work there, and they gave me the fax number.

00;13;42;20 - 00;13;46;01
JR Havlan
I was faxing and faxing and jokes.

00;13;46;04 - 00;13;49;12
Paul Sullivan
That they were using. And it. Would you have a fax machine in your apartment? What would you do?

00;13;49;12 - 00;14;10;16
JR Havlan
I did, yeah, yeah. You know, remember fax machines where there's sort of like printers these days. You you buy it for 70 bucks and then they get all their money some other way. I don't really even know, but eventually I did. Yeah, I did, I had to buy it because I was, probably doing it at first from something at work, but they're using it start to use my jokes, 50 bucks a pop.

00;14;10;16 - 00;14;26;17
JR Havlan
And they were using a pretty good chunk of them. And then I started doing the warm up there and, and, got my foot in the door and worked at a bunch of clubs and then passed at the major clubs in the city, worked around the city, and then, met, Liz Winstead, who was one of the creators of The Daily Show.

00;14;26;17 - 00;14;43;08
JR Havlan
And she asked me to submit to that along with, you know, at that time. So like 100 other people and there were five of us at the beginning, and I got chosen as one of them, fortunately. And then when we won our we want our first Emmy. Later when John took over, we won our first Emmy in 2001.

00;14;43;10 - 00;15;00;22
JR Havlan
And, you know, it had been ten years, 11 years since I worked in that restaurant. And probably as long since I'd seen that woman. Her name is Jean, our icebreaker Jean genius Baker. So I looked her up and, And I took her out to dinner.

00;15;00;24 - 00;15;04;08
Paul Sullivan
That's sweet. Did you bring the. Did you bring the Emmy with you?

00;15;04;10 - 00;15;24;13
JR Havlan
I did, and we went to dinner at a at another restaurant that we used to work at, and we brought the Emmy and stuck it in the middle of the table, and everybody was coming over, and they were all thrilled. And, you know, all of a sudden, the manager, who was a fucking dick to me all the time, is being all nice, comes up with the worst.

00;15;24;15 - 00;15;26;01
JR Havlan
Now he's like, Mr. oh, hey.

00;15;26;01 - 00;15;47;15
Paul Sullivan
It's Mr. Heaven tonight. Oh, you know, it's been so long. Yeah. He's actually five people in the beginning. What was it like? I mean, creating a show, you know, we have in, you know, my background is economics, and so you have these different sort of biases to sort of success bias. We look back and say, wow, you know, it's even for The Daily Show, it's it was amazing.

00;15;47;15 - 00;16;04;28
Paul Sullivan
But of course it became amazing. It was just a show that was starting out and so many shows fail. So what was it? What was the special sauce? What was happening when the five of you were in the writers room, you know, creating the show that, you know, went on to become sort of a staple of American culture?

00;16;05;01 - 00;16;20;02
JR Havlan
Well, you're always kind of winging it. You know, I had a podcast I did for a while called Writer's Block. And, one of the guys interviewed was this guy Mike Reese, who was the original one of the original writers on The Simpsons. And I was asking him, you know, like at that point, 20 years later or something, I'm saying, how did you create this world?

00;16;20;02 - 00;16;41;03
JR Havlan
And he said, well, it wasn't that world. When we started. We were just winging it and created it as we went along. We needed a cop. We created Wiggum, you know, that kind of thing. I mean, that's just what they did. And it was sort of the same thing. I mean, if you look at my, my the original packet, which I'm not sure I still have my original, like submission to the show to get the job.

00;16;41;10 - 00;16;59;24
JR Havlan
It has nothing to do with anything that we ended up doing. They just liked a few jokes in there. They liked the tone. The only thing that I had in there that actually has existed still to this day was I. I pitched back in black with Louis black like I hadn't named it. Yeah, and I hadn't really defined it.

00;16;59;26 - 00;17;19;09
JR Havlan
But I liked Louis. And, you know, I mean, literally, this is the the internet is kind of just taking off at the at that point. I mean, people barely even had laptops, right? So the whole pitch was like, let's get Louis at the desk in front of a laptop, just going nuts over everything that he reads on the internet.

00;17;19;12 - 00;17;23;29
JR Havlan
That was the pitch. Yeah. And it started right away. And he's done it for 25 years or something.

00;17;24;01 - 00;17;26;23
Paul Sullivan
It worked out pretty well. Who is the Craig Kilborn?

00;17;26;26 - 00;17;47;05
JR Havlan
Oh, Craig Kilborn from ESPN. But I think they they wanted Jon Stewart. They might have even offered it to him at the beginning. And he didn't he didn't do it. And then when Craig was leaving, which was only two and a half years in, then they started looking around for a Jon Stewart type. They auditioned tons and tons of people.

00;17;47;07 - 00;18;14;01
JR Havlan
And some of them were really, really good, including Michael McKean was fantastic. And, and, Oh, God, what's his name? You know, that show Dirty Jobs, Mike Rowe. Mike. Oh. Mike's something I can't I'm not. His last name escapes me, but, he's he's in, like, you know, commercials about car tires and shit now, too, but but, but he was also fantastic.

00;18;14;01 - 00;18;25;17
JR Havlan
It was really interesting to watch everybody. And then they hired John. It's one of those classic things. Give me a John Stewart type. They spend all kinds of money and time and get people's hopes up, and then they hire Jon Stewart, back up the truck and they hire the guy they wanted in the.

00;18;25;24 - 00;18;42;28
Paul Sullivan
Who is, of course, a Jon Stewart type. So it makes sense that they get the most Jon Stewart, Jon Stewart. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How did how much did the room grow? You starts off at five. How many writers are there? You know as a as a show starts to get big and starts to rack up Emmys.

00;18;43;00 - 00;18;57;11
JR Havlan
Well, we got a sixth writer pretty quickly because I was the only one without someone kind of on my team. You know? Because when we were in, there were two writers and one office, two writers in one office, and then me and, you know, so I didn't really have anybody to bounce stuff off of and stuff.

00;18;57;14 - 00;19;14;04
JR Havlan
So it was a few months and we got a sixth writer, and then and then it's and slowly built. We didn't get a probably seven and eight for at least a year as my guest. And back then we were just writing jokes. I mean, the style of the show was very, very different. We were just cranking out as many jokes as we could about any topic that we could think of.

00;19;14;07 - 00;19;41;05
JR Havlan
We weren't really focused on politics, and we weren't at all focused on the media. So we were really just we, you know, we had segment ideas. We had the, you know, you work out how the show is going to present itself. Different, different segments that we had where we got Liz on the air with one segment called, he said, he said, oh, he said Winstead because their name was Winstead.

00;19;41;08 - 00;19;59;16
JR Havlan
Yeah. So she would go on and debate a topic with Craig on the air, and they're like polar opposites. So that was always kind of fun to do. And we had Louis his thing. And then we just, you know, split it up into one thing we had back then that they that they retained all through Jon was, headlines.

00;19;59;16 - 00;20;19;04
JR Havlan
And then, you know, this just in and stuff like that. Yeah. So just, just kind of naming the segments and, and but back then we're writing jokes about anything that was kind of top of the news. You know, Justin Timberlake did something. We were all over it. Now, now, if Justin Timberlake does something, they don't care. And rightfully so, it's not their gig anymore.

00;20;19;07 - 00;20;37;06
JR Havlan
Yeah, it wasn't until the second year that Jon was there. It's actually pretty quickly, but it was the second year which was ended up being 2000 because he started at the beginning of 99. So he took a year kind of massaging it and easing into it. And then in 2000, he was like, all right, we got an election coming up.

00;20;37;06 - 00;20;55;14
JR Havlan
We're going to have to we should focus on this and for the most part, and start getting a little more serious about it and, and really defining the show more and, and, and look, I don't know if that's exactly what was going on behind closed doors. I wasn't in on a lot of those planning sessions at that point, but that's essentially what happened.

00;20;55;16 - 00;21;18;26
JR Havlan
And it worked out because of course, the 2000 election was a shit show. And we were really kind of the only ones not only capable of, you know, in a position to, to cover it the way that we did, but also just kind of capable of it. I mean, there weren't other shows that really did that in the late night shows weren't set up to do that, and SNL wasn't doing that kind of stuff.

00;21;18;26 - 00;21;22;04
JR Havlan
So. So everything just took off from there.

00;21;22;07 - 00;21;38;27
Paul Sullivan
You know, when you think this wasn't something that you you planned in your career, this is, you know, careers offensive evolve as we're going along. But what did it feel like as you went from, you know, you're 1 to 2 and I think you were there you 13 or 14 years. How did it. How did it build? I mean, it's you know, tremendously procedures have done this.

00;21;38;27 - 00;21;46;21
Paul Sullivan
But of course, it's a job like like any other. So, you know, what are the pluses and minuses for you? Writing for the Daily Show. Yeah.

00;21;46;23 - 00;22;09;28
JR Havlan
Well, the plus was getting the job in the first place, you know, I mean, I was at the end of my rope. I never, I was never one to spend much money or, like, climb into debt very freely. But I think when I, when I actually was told I got the job, I think I had like eight grand on my credit card or something like that, you know, which to me was just a fortune.

00;22;09;28 - 00;22;27;10
JR Havlan
Like, what the hell am I going to do about this? Yeah. And I was, it was, it was, it was not, you know, the greatest position. So all of a sudden, I get this job, and, you know, the pay wasn't the pay was twice as much as I'd ever made in my life. But I never made very much in my life.

00;22;27;13 - 00;22;42;26
JR Havlan
So that wasn't a tremendous amount, but it was certainly way more than I ever made. And I was able to get out of debt. And I had this job, and I kind of loved it, and it was doing well. And we were having a real idle lot of fun because we're just like the one guy said, like, Mike reset.

00;22;42;26 - 00;23;00;29
JR Havlan
We're making it up as we're going along and and we're the whole goal is just to write the best joke and try to get it on the air. And, and, and then, two and a half years go by. First of all, I can't believe now we've been there for two and a half years, and the show is doing really well and everybody likes it.

00;23;01;02 - 00;23;17;18
JR Havlan
Yeah. And then Craig is going to Craig leaves and John comes in. And so now we've got a new kind of thing going on with John. And and we weren't sure how that was going to work out before that. John was sort of, you know, he had his late night show and he was a stand up, and I knew him, but not very well.

00;23;17;21 - 00;23;47;11
JR Havlan
But he was just like a kind of a leather jacket wearing, chain smoking standup guy. And we weren't sure whether or not he wanted even to fit into that or if he was going to change it. We didn't know, but he did a great job of transitioning into it and, and, and, and then changing it and, and, making it more interesting and, and so that became kind of a new job when John got there and the money got better immediately because as of right, as a group, the writers kind of held out and said, you're going to change the host and give them a bunch of money.

00;23;47;13 - 00;24;11;02
JR Havlan
You got to give some of that to us. And it worked, but none of us could believe it. We immediately got like a pretty significant raise. And then and then, you know, a couple of years later, we win an Emmy. And so now it's another new job. You know, it just kind of kept evolving in such a way where I didn't feel stagnant in it.

00;24;11;04 - 00;24;32;27
JR Havlan
Yeah. And so that was that was great. And it would and then, then we joined the union in 2005 and that was a big deal. It was a hard thing to do. But we got another big, huge raise when we joined the union. And so the money was kind of piling in which, which was nice and didn't make me think, oh, I got to go find something else because this is nowhere.

00;24;32;27 - 00;24;55;04
JR Havlan
And and then we kept winning Emmys and it kept being fun and, and everything just got bigger and better and brighter and, and then I was there for 18 years, actually, and, and, you know, then it got finally got to a point where things like John kept changing things not just for the sake of change, but in order to try to evolve the show.

00;24;55;06 - 00;25;13;06
JR Havlan
And it was always very interesting and it normally worked. And if something didn't, we wouldn't, you know, continue it. But after a while it evolved to a point where I wasn't I didn't like what was going, what we were doing anymore. I didn't like the way we were doing it. So, so I wasn't that into it anymore.

00;25;13;08 - 00;25;19;21
JR Havlan
And so after I hung around for a little while and then was like, yeah, I gotta go.

00;25;19;23 - 00;25;26;10
Paul Sullivan
Plus, by that point you had, you know, I mean, eight Emmys, I mean, having nine, that just seems excessive, doesn't it?

00;25;26;13 - 00;25;28;22
JR Havlan
It's just it's it's selfish.

00;25;28;25 - 00;25;34;22
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. I mean, other people could use the Emmy and they're heavy, right? Are they? How heavy are they?

00;25;34;24 - 00;25;42;03
JR Havlan
Oh, yeah. We reinforce the, the floor in our house to hold them up.

00;25;42;06 - 00;25;45;15
Paul Sullivan
Where do you where do you keep them? Where do you keep them? In your house.

00;25;45;17 - 00;26;07;18
JR Havlan
They're kind of surprisingly big and and, and heavy. You know, I remember the first one I won, actually, was in 2001, so we didn't actually go to the show. You know, because it was the 11th, it was supposed to be in September, I think it actually went on in October. And so I found out, you know, we watched it on, at a bar in Midtown.

00;26;07;20 - 00;26;29;00
JR Havlan
And I have a picture of me. Somebody snapped a picture of me as they announced it, which is pretty cool. That's right. And, I have that picture. And then I had, you know, I knew I was going to my family was still in California, so I had the trophy shipped to my mother's house, and I opened it there for Christmas.

00;26;29;02 - 00;26;30;02
Paul Sullivan
That's sweet.

00;26;30;04 - 00;26;53;11
JR Havlan
Yeah. So that was the first time I. And I have that picture, too. Then I really just took it out of the box and I was like, oh shit, the thing is crazy. But, now I just, you know, I mean, I have a little space in my little home office that has, I, you know, humblebrag ran out of space for my Emmys.

00;26;53;13 - 00;27;13;28
JR Havlan
So there are five, five of them, over there on shelves, actually, when the when the place was when we were renovating, I had one. Well, I wanted shelves in this spot by my office because there was nothing else really to put there. And it's kind of like a little tiny alcove. And I thought like, oh, you know, I'll just put this is a great spot for, like some bookshelves.

00;27;13;28 - 00;27;32;00
JR Havlan
So just put some shelves in here. So they put them in. And then I realized I could maybe put my Emmys on those, but they had already put in these kind of floating shelves. And so I had to go to these guys and I put my Emmy and it didn't fit, was too tall. So I had to say to them, can you take down those shelves?

00;27;32;02 - 00;27;38;03
Paul Sullivan
Put up the sanding the base so they're sanding down the base so they can get it in there, you know.

00;27;38;03 - 00;27;57;22
JR Havlan
Yeah. Well it was actually I think it was like a few inches. So I said I can fit some of these in here. So I needed to change these shelves and make them so they'll fit these Emmys. And so they did that. And then there's two in the in a shelf up high and the living room and there's one at my aunt's lake house.

00;27;57;24 - 00;28;01;20
Paul Sullivan
All right. Do the kids ever play the.

00;28;01;22 - 00;28;24;29
JR Havlan
No. But, I, I sort of have them. I there's the first one and then there's the one that we won when my wife was pregnant with my son. And so that's his. And so the and then there was the one that was she, we won when my wife was pregnant with my daughter. So that's hers. Yeah.

00;28;25;01 - 00;28;37;16
JR Havlan
And then there was one that I won when that we won when I brought my mother to the show. And so that's hers. And then and the other four are for sale.

00;28;37;19 - 00;28;44;19
Paul Sullivan
And on eBay right now, if I were to type it in, you could just boom, you know? Yeah, by now. Or just bid it out and say, yeah.

00;28;44;20 - 00;28;46;27
JR Havlan
You can buy now for $23.5.

00;28;47;01 - 00;28;48;07
Paul Sullivan


00;28;48;10 - 00;28;50;16
JR Havlan
One day I'm trying to unload these things.

00;28;50;18 - 00;28;52;29
Paul Sullivan
They're heavy and they don't fit in your bookshelves. So I.

00;28;53;01 - 00;28;53;20
JR Havlan
Great.

00;28;53;22 - 00;28;53;29
Paul Sullivan
For.

00;28;54;00 - 00;28;56;16
JR Havlan
Planned changing my bookshelves.

00;28;56;19 - 00;29;12;01
Paul Sullivan
So you meet your wife? You're a writer for the Daily Show. How do you. How do you meet your wife? Is she. Is it love at first sight? Is she, completely impressed by how, witty and charming you are? Tell me the story. Tell me the the story of meeting her.

00;29;12;04 - 00;29;37;16
JR Havlan
Yeah. Yeah. Yes to. Yes to both. It was especially the second thing. I'm sure she was extremely impressed by my wittiness and charm. Well, like most things in my life, it was a daily show. Related. She, her cousin worked on the show, and, and he took her to the Emmys one year, and that was a year that I took my mother.

00;29;37;19 - 00;29;58;26
JR Havlan
And, because I was actually in the middle of a divorce and, so I took my mother and I, the the her cousin. I didn't know it was her cousin at work. But he had just got it. He had started dating and this, this woman and, and he was going to bring her to the Emmys.

00;29;58;29 - 00;30;26;20
JR Havlan
And so I thought, oh, he's bringing his girlfriend to the Emmys. Yeah. And so then we I got there and, my mom hadn't gotten there yet, and, I saw my friend and this woman in the hotel lobby at the standard downtown hotel, where every room has a big chair that looks like a hand. And, and, and I said, oh, wow.

00;30;26;20 - 00;30;36;04
JR Havlan
Well, look at that. His girlfriend is really cute, you know? And then he introduced her as his cousin, and, and, you know, I didn't meet him. I got a little weird.

00;30;36;04 - 00;30;36;23
Paul Sullivan
You got a little weird.

00;30;36;28 - 00;30;43;29
JR Havlan
I, you know, I got I pushed him aside and, Yeah, you guys, I told him you can go.

00;30;44;01 - 00;30;51;13
Paul Sullivan
Do you think she said, oh, man, look at that sweet guy. He brought his mom? Or do you think she said, God, why can't that guy get a date? He's got his mom.

00;30;51;15 - 00;31;08;24
JR Havlan
No, she well, she didn't she didn't know that. She didn't know that yet. And I mean, you know, the story gets a little sad. There's illnesses and death involved in the story, so I don't need to get into the details. But my mother, it was cancer. Her mother had died of cancer when she met my mother, you know, which she did.

00;31;08;24 - 00;31;28;02
JR Havlan
Not just because she was there with everybody. My mom, but my mom was very, very sick and didn't want to come down and was questioning whether or not she should. But we all knew at that point it was, you know, past the point of the doctor saying there's really nothing we can do. And so I and she and I had talked about it and we were pretty open about it.

00;31;28;02 - 00;31;49;14
JR Havlan
So I told her, like, look, you know, she says, I don't think I can go down. She had a, you know, a pretty, pretty consistent, nurse at the time. And I said, well, look, you know, you may as well die at the Emmy's, you know, I mean, what what what a way to go. And she said, yeah, okay.

00;31;49;16 - 00;32;05;08
JR Havlan
So I flew her and her nurse down and she got all gussied up and came in and we won. And she got to, you know, she was very sickly looking at that point and was in a wheelchair, but she got to carry an Emmy around in a wheelchair for the rest of the night. So she basically got to meet whoever she wanted to meet.

00;32;05;11 - 00;32;08;10
JR Havlan
And she met a bunch of people and it was really fun.

00;32;08;13 - 00;32;11;26
Paul Sullivan
How did you met? Who did you want to meet with her? So who are the people who are top of our list?

00;32;11;29 - 00;32;19;23
JR Havlan
She met Glenn Close. She, And of course, you know, it's an old lady with an Emmy in her lap. You can't not talk to her, right?

00;32;20;00 - 00;32;20;10
Paul Sullivan
Right.

00;32;20;11 - 00;32;28;06
JR Havlan
So she met, she was very excited to meet the guy who played house. Oh, yeah. You know what I'm talking about.

00;32;28;07 - 00;32;29;21
Paul Sullivan
I do in there. Yeah.

00;32;29;24 - 00;32;31;25
JR Havlan
I can't remember his name for some reason, but she.

00;32;31;25 - 00;32;34;12
Paul Sullivan
Was Tony Shalhoub, right? Tony shot.

00;32;34;13 - 00;32;37;21
JR Havlan
No, no no no, that's a that's that's a different that's monk.

00;32;37;24 - 00;32;38;13
Paul Sullivan
Oh my. You're right.

00;32;38;13 - 00;32;59;11
JR Havlan
It's a different one. One named show. But he had played the Black Adder I think, or something like that. And she loved she loved this guy. And at one point after we won, I, you know, usually you go through this big gantlet in the back backstage, but I came out first and gave the trophy to my mom and then went back to do all the press stuff that we do.

00;32;59;14 - 00;33;27;05
JR Havlan
And so she was sitting there with it, and this guy had just presented and he was walking up the aisle and she said, hello. And so he stop and talk to her. So he got to meet her, which or she got to meet him and and then and then on the way out that night, there was like nobody out there as I was bringing her to her car to bring her back to the hotel and, and all of a sudden, I hear my mother say, is that a Jeremy Piven?

00;33;27;07 - 00;33;29;13
JR Havlan
Jeremy, is that a Jeremy Piven?

00;33;29;18 - 00;33;30;05
Paul Sullivan
Not the.

00;33;30;10 - 00;33;49;01
JR Havlan
One. No, a Jeremy Piven, she said. Yeah. And I look up, and, I mean, we're alone out in front of the forum or wherever it was, and it's night. And here's Jeremy Piven on his phone walking by. And at first I was like, I, you know, he's got a kind of a reputation for being the nicest guy. And I see that he's like on his phone.

00;33;49;01 - 00;34;02;29
JR Havlan
I'm like, oh boy, here we go. But to his credit, he looked down, saw this and said, I got to call you back and talk to my mom for a while. So big ups to Jeremy Piven, age eight Jeremy Piven. Do not necessarily be sort of what.

00;34;03;05 - 00;34;12;12
Paul Sullivan
It kind of reminds me of, like the search for a Jon Stewart type. You had a, you know, maybe your mom was used to that. She maybe he's like, yeah, if he wasn't Jeremy Piven, he was close to Jeremy Piven.

00;34;12;14 - 00;34;30;04
JR Havlan
And it's just a really funny phrasing. And the, so so that was it. And, and they she didn't she didn't last too long after that, which was sad, but she got to have that experience. So that's pretty cool. And that's where I met my wife. So but we didn't start dating until after because I was busy flying back and forth, taking care of my mom.

00;34;30;07 - 00;34;48;21
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. So meet your wife. You have your children while you're still writing for the Daily Show. I can only imagine that that is the, you know, sort of the most full time, a full time jobs in which you're probably working, you know, right up until the show, you know, start filming. How was it, you know, then is that how it really was?

00;34;48;21 - 00;34;54;07
Paul Sullivan
I mean, it was it tough to balance, you know, being a dad with being a writer?

00;34;54;10 - 00;35;22;18
JR Havlan
Well, our first kid wasn't born until 2010. You've been there a long time. The show actually was kind of, a bit famous within the industry for being, like, an almost like a 9 to 5 gig, or certainly the closest thing you could possibly get, on a writing staff. And it was very uncommon because we taped at 6:00 and, and there wasn't much to do at night because so much stuff, so much did happen and so much was going to change.

00;35;22;18 - 00;35;42;22
JR Havlan
We had to start, you know, work on some more evergreen stuff. But, but we didn't need that much evergreen stuff. And so unless you were working on something in particular that kept you late, you'd go home even once the taping started. There was no point in being there. But you'd be home watching TV and stuff. But you you would you would still be home.

00;35;42;24 - 00;35;57;17
JR Havlan
And then we would go in at nine for a meeting. I think the first meeting was at nine, and, and so when we had kids, I was still able to bring them over to like, nursery school when it got to that point and then head over to work afterwards. And, you know, you're home for dinner and stuff like that.

00;35;57;17 - 00;36;22;06
JR Havlan
So it wasn't some it wasn't some tragically difficult thing, you know. Yeah. Although that was, as you know, on staff, if I was indeed the head writer, the, or like the executive producer there, they, they required to stay there through the taping and they have a discussion afterwards. And it's a, it's a different job, but for, for me it wasn't it.

00;36;22;13 - 00;36;30;03
JR Havlan
I mean it's difficult but it was not, not not not typical like that. Like you just dad's never home kind of thing, right?

00;36;30;09 - 00;36;31;05
Paul Sullivan
Right.

00;36;31;08 - 00;36;34;03
JR Havlan
Good. And now dad is only at home.

00;36;34;09 - 00;36;36;08
Paul Sullivan
Which is where I want to watch, where I want to.

00;36;36;10 - 00;36;39;18
JR Havlan
Stay. Yeah. How it goes to, like, Jesus Christ. Dad's always home.

00;36;39;18 - 00;36;46;29
Paul Sullivan
And he goes somewhere else. Like he's there. Then what? Did he just move his arms around today? What does that do?

00;36;47;01 - 00;36;56;09
JR Havlan
Yeah. What do you want to do? Is he shining them again? Was that his? The butt groove in the couch is getting too deep. This is. Something's got to be done.

00;36;56;11 - 00;37;14;28
Paul Sullivan
Let's get to that. So you live daily show that you do a couple other things. You would Jimmy a Kim. Not doing. Yeah. No. Jimmy Fallon, Jimmy Fallon, just for a little while. Just for a little bit. Right. For some other things. But then, you know, your kids are getting older and you and your wife have this discussion about, you know, what are you going to do?

00;37;14;28 - 00;37;29;15
Paul Sullivan
Like, you know, or are you going to hire a caregiver? Is one of you going to pull back because one of you, you kind of become the primary parent? How did that conversation go and how did you become the one who either was selected or put his hand up to be be the lead dad in your house?

00;37;29;15 - 00;37;54;25
JR Havlan
Well, that question was earlier when I left The Daily Show because we, you know, I mean, we talked about it like a year before I left and then and, you know, and, and then more seriously, like, I made kind of a drama out of it. I, I left the, the, the same I may I announced that I was leaving the show the same day, 18 to the year, 18 years to the day after I started stuff like that.

00;37;54;27 - 00;38;18;14
JR Havlan
Right. And, and then I was gone later that month, and, but it was, you know, a year before I was like, oh, man. You know, this is this is not becoming kind of a drag. And then and then a half a year after that, then she and I had this conversation. And we are the kids were very young, you know, they were four and two or something.

00;38;18;16 - 00;38;40;05
JR Havlan
And, and I said, I just don't want to be there. And, and she said, she just said, okay, so then don't. And so I left. And then what I didn't anticipate, like, I didn't really want to work at anywhere for a while I'd been I was kind of burned out on top of that. So I was only off for a month or two before somebody offered me a job, you know, helping them develop a show.

00;38;40;08 - 00;39;04;00
JR Havlan
And I was like, yeah, of course, sure, I'd love to. So I go do that. You do that for a few months and then somebody, and then I'm off for a couple of months. Somebody offered me another job and I wasn't really looking for stuff, but it kept getting offered up, and they were given writing gigs, and, and usually developing shows and for different amounts of time and, some lasted more than others.

00;39;04;03 - 00;39;25;14
JR Havlan
And then that just kind of kept going that way without any of them really taking grip, which was bad. A couple of them were good projects. That would have been nice. And then, and then honestly just sort of dried up a little bit and I didn't really think about it. And then I just kind of became somebody who was at home doing, you know, only stuff that I wanted to do.

00;39;25;14 - 00;39;42;13
JR Havlan
And yeah, it's working. So we were like, all right. I mean, I'll be I'll probably be looking for work in one form or another. Soon enough, more, far more actively than I have been, because the kids at this point now are starting to be able to kind of take care of themselves a little bit, you know?

00;39;42;15 - 00;40;03;04
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. Yeah. But when, you know, you really embrace this when they were quite young, kids are, notoriously taxing. They they rob us of sleep. Did being a comedy writer equip you? You think better than other parents to handle the sort of, you know, absurdities of of young kids and parenting has given you any any of.

00;40;03;04 - 00;40;17;07
JR Havlan
It, whatever it might it would have if my dumb kids knew any popular references. You know, I mean, what am I supposed to do when they don't understand the joke?

00;40;17;09 - 00;40;17;25
Paul Sullivan
You can't, you can't.

00;40;17;27 - 00;40;19;04
JR Havlan
I can't explain everything to them.

00;40;19;05 - 00;40;20;21
Paul Sullivan
No, it's not funny when you explain the joke.

00;40;20;24 - 00;40;30;06
JR Havlan
No. They got to get out there and live a little. You know it. Read a paper every once in a while. If you want to understand. Daddy, I can't. Can't walk you through this.

00;40;30;09 - 00;40;41;23
Paul Sullivan
Come on, you. There aren't any tips. There only were you able to lighten it up at all and see this out of them. So any tips for non funny lead dads out there that you could do. You could share.

00;40;41;26 - 00;41;09;13
JR Havlan
Well I get don't don't don't try to be too funny. Your kids don't really think you're funny I kids often don't think I'm funny either. I if you like you know, if, if dollars were eye rolls, I'd be way richer. Be. So I'd be filthy rich right now. But, you know, I think it's most dads know, like, how to have fun with their kids.

00;41;09;13 - 00;41;32;19
JR Havlan
It's just about being present. It's being in the moment. It's. It's showing interest in the things that and the things that they do. And and listening to the songs that you hate that they like, and, letting them play them in the car and, and messing around with them and just kind of being there and, and trying not to yell, you know, I'm, I'm no, I'm no model parent.

00;41;32;19 - 00;41;52;04
JR Havlan
You know, I've had plenty of plenty of issues, but, but you, you, you get better at it. And, you know, I'm just sort of naturally goofy and playful, I think, for sure. So that that, that makes it a little easier. But like I said, you know, the kids don't always want to do that. And, you know, they're not always the best audience.

00;41;52;04 - 00;42;02;09
JR Havlan
Sometimes they're like, if it was between them and a bunch of drunks at a at a late night open mic, I, you know, I might I might take off and go to the open mic.

00;42;02;11 - 00;42;17;28
Paul Sullivan
And ask, what about, you know, one of the things it's often difficult for you to be dads is to find a shorthand to explain what they do, when they meet other dads, you know, when you were a writer for The Daily Show, that would be easy. I'm a writer for The Daily Show. I was a long time columnist for The New York Times.

00;42;17;28 - 00;42;32;12
Paul Sullivan
I, I'm a columnist for New York Times, and I wouldn't even really go into the part about me being a dad. What do you say when you, you know, meet, meet, you know, guys that, you know, perhaps through your wife's job or just, you know, you know, I know you you go to your aunt's house a lot when you're meeting people out there.

00;42;32;12 - 00;42;35;01
Paul Sullivan
How does that introduction go?

00;42;35;04 - 00;42;58;06
JR Havlan
Well, it's always different. We talked about this before and I, I you know, I actually gave it some, some thought, as to really kind of having, a standard line which would be easier to deal with, like being more prepared for that question because it's a fairly common question when you meet somebody. But here's here, I'll run my new answer by you.

00;42;58;08 - 00;43;01;07
JR Havlan
See what you think. Ready? So you ask me what I do.

00;43;01;10 - 00;43;06;23
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. Hey. Yeah. What do you do?

00;43;06;25 - 00;43;17;00
JR Havlan
I think this is going really well. I'm. I think I'm just going to say what I do, which is I stay busy, you know? That's what I do now.

00;43;17;03 - 00;43;22;10
Paul Sullivan
I stay here because it's kind of elusive. And they're not quite sure what you could stay busy doing.

00;43;22;17 - 00;43;53;16
JR Havlan
Yeah, yeah. I mean, if they want to find that out, that's fine. I mean, do you work? Well? No, it depends on how you define work. If you define work by getting paid to do something, then no, I don't work on it. But if you define work by, you know, waking up before 7:00 to cook your kids breakfast and packed lunches and get them off and clean the place up and, you know, make sure the fridge is full and and doing all of that kind of shit that takes longer than you think it does because you aren't accustomed to doing it.

00;43;53;19 - 00;44;21;04
JR Havlan
And then, you know, people have hobbies. My hobby is writing. So I when I get that free 3 or 4 hours, if I get that, I try to sit down and work on whatever project I'm working on. I wrote, a my wife had her aunt, is married to a very successful business man who's long, who's almost 90 years old now and has long since retired.

00;44;21;06 - 00;44;40;15
JR Havlan
But he is, you know, very generous guy, very successful guy. And everybody kind of loves him. And, and he's really fun to talk to. And, and I wanted to kind of get to know him a little better. So I offered to write, kind of a biography of him. And, and I ended up doing that, and it ended up being a kind of a much bigger thing because I interviewed him.

00;44;40;15 - 00;44;59;16
JR Havlan
But I didn't tell him that I was also interviewing all of his family. Yeah, a bunch of his friends. And, and then his wife knew that I was doing this, and his daughter knew that I was doing this. And, they agreed to, to, you know, get like a book made and go online and get the books made.

00;44;59;16 - 00;45;24;04
JR Havlan
So we wrote it up and it's a, it's a real book. Not that we're selling, but we did for the family. But it was it projects what I like doing and and I completed it and, and now I'm working on a, and another book reminds me of a story actually, that can kind of go along, I think, with this and with with with dads who maybe looking for something to do or thinking maybe they don't have enough to do or what they do is insignificant.

00;45;24;04 - 00;45;58;00
JR Havlan
I think maybe, I watched it again this morning. I remember seeing, a commencement speech, at, military school, and it was given by a guy with the patches and the whole thing. And, you know, he was an admiral or something. I don't know who the guy was, really, but I remember seeing this clip and he's talking about how when he was in the Navy Seals, the first thing that they would do every morning is his commanding officers would come in and they would inspect his bed, right, make sure it was made properly.

00;45;58;06 - 00;46;12;26
JR Havlan
And he had to have all the corners folded a certain way. Everything had to be tight. The the blanket had to be down here and folded perfectly. The pillow had to be fluffed perfectly and set and exactly centered in the right place and all that stuff. And when they passed inspection, then they could go on with the rest of their day, right?

00;46;13;04 - 00;46;33;23
JR Havlan
But he got used to doing that. And he talks about how you might think of it as a mundane task, because it kind of is. Yeah, but it's also for him for a very long time, in a very specific way, was the first thing that he accomplished every single day. And it's set the tone for accomplishing more things, regardless of how insignificant they might think.

00;46;33;23 - 00;46;58;19
JR Havlan
But everything becomes an accomplishment. And he says that you can't really if you can't accomplish the small things, then you can't accomplish the big things. So there's a lot more weight on that and a lot more purpose to that. And then he closed it by saying that if you end up having a bad day, then when you get home, at least your bed is made.

00;46;58;23 - 00;46;59;13
Paul Sullivan
You better made.

00;46;59;15 - 00;47;21;17
JR Havlan
Yeah, yeah. And it's kind of like that. A lot of what I do, it's like there's, there's little things that, that, I find myself doing, all day long that, you know, the kids don't notice. The wife might not notice, you know, you wouldn't know. But I know they get done. And I know that if they didn't, then, you know, things wouldn't be operating the way they do.

00;47;21;17 - 00;47;34;25
JR Havlan
So I don't, I don't think of them as insignificant. I think of everything that happens throughout my day as as, as something significant, something that needs to get done. And if I'm the guy that's doing it, then great.

00;47;34;28 - 00;47;41;25
Paul Sullivan
To have them. That's a great way to end. Thank you, for being my guest on the Company of Dead podcast. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

00;47;41;27 - 00;47;43;17
JR Havlan
You're welcome. Nice to talk to you, Paul.