EP27: Want Your Kids To Excel? Join The Parent Nation

Interview with Dana Suskind / Surgeon, Author, Child Development Expert

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

Dana Suskind is an acclaimed pediatric surgeon at the University of Chicago and the author of “Parent Nation: Unlocking Every Child’s Potential, Fulfilling Society’s Promise.” What’s a parent nation? It’s a group that values and supports the labor and love of raising the next generation, particularly in the early years. The health and well-being of those children is very much dependent on what parents can do. But is it all on Lead Dads – or Lead Moms to figure it out? Or does society have a role to play? When things aren’t going right have we failed? Listen to Dr. Suskind talk about a different way to view parenting and learn how to create real change in a post-pandemic world where work and family are intertwined.

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Transcript

00;00;05;03 - 00;00;22;08
Paul Sullivan
I'm Paul Sullivan, your host of the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, sublime, strange and silly aspects of being a dad in a world where men were the primary parents, whether they work full time, part time, without all their time to their children, feel they have to hide, or at least not talk about their roles.

00;00;22;10 - 00;00;39;26
Paul Sullivan
One thing I know from personal experience is being a dad is not traditional role for men. Parenting is so often left to mothers or paid caregivers. But here at the Company of dads, our goal is to shake all that off and create a community for fathers who really dads for other dads who want to learn from them. Today, my guest is Dana Suskind.

00;00;39;28 - 00;01;03;24
Paul Sullivan
Doctor Suskind is an acclaimed pediatric surgeon at the University of Chicago. She's an expert in cochlear implants for young children. She's also the author of two bestselling books, 30 Million Words Building a Child's Brain. Tune in, talk more. Take turns about the beneficial impacts of parents having conversations with their children. And this spring, she wrote Parent Nation Unlocking Every Child's Potential, Fulfilling Society's promise.

00;01;03;27 - 00;01;21;00
Paul Sullivan
It's an important book, the type of book that aims to create real change for parents and children in this post-pandemic world where work and family are intertwined and she knows of what she speaks. She has three children and a blended family of eight kids. Dana, welcome to the Company of Dads podcast.

00;01;21;03 - 00;01;23;01
Dana Suskind
Thanks so much for having me.

00;01;23;03 - 00;01;30;07
Paul Sullivan
I mean, to be honest, you know, when you were growing up, did you watch eat in the 80s enough? Was that like your favorite TV show?

00;01;30;10 - 00;01;33;27
Dana Suskind
Actually, I really loved The Brady Bunch. I used to dream that I was.

00;01;34;05 - 00;01;35;22
Paul Sullivan
Their only six, the only six, and.

00;01;35;29 - 00;01;47;16
Dana Suskind
I had to beat the ad to beat the the six. I always dreamed of being adopted as, like the seventh one, but that we watched eight is enough as well. So. Yeah.

00;01;47;18 - 00;02;10;08
Paul Sullivan
Wow. Okay. You know, you literally do surgeries that give children the ability to hear every day you operate, you make the world better for people. So, you know, light first question, I mean, was her moment when you were choosing hobbies and were weighing, you know, write a couple of bestselling books that will help people make families stronger and change the world.

00;02;10;08 - 00;02;23;14
Paul Sullivan
Or maybe like take up tennis or contract bridge. I mean, sit on the couch, watch Netflix. I mean, how did how did you branch out into writing? Not one, but two, you know, very, important, impactful books.

00;02;23;17 - 00;02;58;10
Dana Suskind
Yeah. Well, that's a great question. But actually, I view my work as an author, as a translational research scientist, really, just as an extension of my work as a doctor. It is the necessary things, components that allow my patients to thrive. Because the truth is, all my work at the center, that I co-direct at the University of Chicago, my books all relate to what is it that children need to reach their potentials and to thrive, whether or not they're deaf patients that I care for and provide.

00;02;58;10 - 00;03;07;07
Dana Suskind
Cochlear implants are typically developing children. Really? What is it that all children need to thrive? So it's all part and parcel. It's not a hobby.

00;03;07;09 - 00;03;12;21
Paul Sullivan
I know, so so you do. So sit on the couch watching Netflix like the rest of us, right?

00;03;12;24 - 00;03;17;21
Dana Suskind
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. With my 18,000 children.

00;03;17;23 - 00;03;25;06
Paul Sullivan
Or you just watching a binge watch, you know, repeats of The Brady Bunch and an eight is enough, right? Yeah.

00;03;25;08 - 00;03;27;03
Dana Suskind
Yes.

00;03;27;06 - 00;03;49;24
Paul Sullivan
Your first book, you know, 30 million words talked about, among other things, literally talking, you know, specifically the relationship between early language skills and brain development in children. You mean that to me? You just said seem to come out of your work as as a surgeon. But, you know, when it comes to parents talking to their children, I mean, here at the company, dads are talking about their dads.

00;03;49;24 - 00;04;08;23
Paul Sullivan
Your fathers talking to their children could be any parent, though. Is there a certain type of talking that that means more, you know, for example, is is reading, to them better than at dinnertime chat or talk about how those, you know, those words and what kids said to those children, you know, matters when it's coming from from a parent or a caregiver.

00;04;08;26 - 00;04;34;05
Dana Suskind
Absolutely. So it really much of my work is focused on the first years of life, the first 3 to 5 years of life, when 85% of the physical brain is grown. People don't really think about it. But when our babies are, when we're born as babies, our brains aren't fully developed and like your heart and lungs, and it really the brain is waiting for instruction guides from the world, from nurturing caregivers to finish off the job.

00;04;34;05 - 00;05;09;11
Dana Suskind
It's almost some people call it the fourth trimester, and it's nurturing talk and interaction that actually help wire up all those billions of neurons to form the infrastructure of brain, your brain development that allows you all your thinking and learning later on. And so what is the most facilitative language? In the early years, we've actually called it down, at the center that I co-direct, to what we call the three TS tuning in, talking more, taking turns, even though, you know, you think it's just number of words, but it's not.

00;05;09;11 - 00;05;24;14
Dana Suskind
It's really that sort of in return. So tuning into what your child's interested in talking about it, using rich language and taking turns having a conversation. So it's as much quantity is quality as interaction. And that's the best way to build your baby's brain.

00;05;24;19 - 00;05;47;06
Paul Sullivan
So when you talk about taking turn to mean it's one thing, you know, I definitely get a lot of serve and volley with my tween. You know, she's she's she's 12, you know, going on God knows what. So there's plenty of, you know, taking turns there. But when you're talking about a small child and you know that, I think what you're saying maybe in layman's terms would be sort of that the final wiring of the brain and wiring some of those neurotransmitters.

00;05;47;08 - 00;06;02;05
Paul Sullivan
What is taking turns look like when you're talking to, you know, I have three kids. You know, a little small little blob that kind of. You think, yeah, that child's smiling at me. Or does she have gas? I don't know, so what is what is taking terms like, you know, real kind of rubber meets the road stuff for fun.

00;06;02;07 - 00;06;24;03
Dana Suskind
Yeah. You know, I mean, obviously it changes as as the child gets, older, but at the very beginning of life, you know, people are always like, well, how do I have a conversation with my baby? They don't even have any language. And it can be anything from, you know, gestures, you know, pointing to, to, to looking to obviously responding to words.

00;06;24;03 - 00;06;46;19
Dana Suskind
But it's really about responding to sort of the communication that the child is trying to make with you. Obviously with over time, they start having words to go along with it and then sentences, etc. but really knowing that it's that engagement that's or, you know, the serve and volley or serve in return that is so critical for that wiring.

00;06;46;22 - 00;06;48;03
Dana Suskind


00;06;48;06 - 00;07;15;12
Paul Sullivan
You know, in this book came out, what, 20 1516. Yeah. So, okay. But, you know, I think you and I have talked about this in the past, one of my books I interviewed a colleague of yours at Chicago, James Heckman. Yeah. You know, won a Nobel Prize for something completely obscure, but, has done remarkable, research on, you know, early childhood education and quickly summarizing, you know, comparing apples to apples.

00;07;15;12 - 00;07;36;14
Paul Sullivan
He found that, you know, poor kids who had high quality, early childhood education did better than, than than poor kids who who didn't have that. And, of course, you know, rich kids who had, you know, that, that they did better because it more supports. But it it was inspiring because you saw that, that this early childhood could help, you know, close that gap.

00;07;36;21 - 00;08;05;20
Paul Sullivan
A little bit, for that research was done decades ago. And we're still having, you know, these, these conversations today. How do you get it to that? People understand that, you know, the money that you're investing in your children, if you're going to spend it, you should really spend it in those early years and not wait to pay, you know, private school tuition in high school or hope that you'll send them one day to the University of Chicago and pay for that tuition?

00;08;05;20 - 00;08;07;11
Paul Sullivan
That doesn't mean a lot.

00;08;07;13 - 00;08;29;27
Dana Suskind
No. And the beauty of Jim Heckman work is, as you say, the fact that for every dollar that you invest early on. Right? And it's not just, you know, it's it's for all children, you get a societal return on investment of $12. Right? So everybody talks about, you know, the cost of different policies when they're sort of missing the point that you save money.

00;08;29;27 - 00;08;58;15
Dana Suskind
Right. It's it's a negative cost. Because investing early on not only improves educational trajectories, but you have a, you know, a stronger workforce, decrease health care costs. I mean, nobody thinks about the fact that obesity, hypertension, diabetes, these things that cost society so much money are related to also what happens early on. And so, you know, why why are we still having these conversations?

00;08;58;15 - 00;09;21;29
Dana Suskind
I mean, that's a you know, there are many different ways to answer this question. But what is quite clear from Covid 19 is that, you know, if not now, when? I mean, we are such an outlier compared to any other country in terms of investing in the early years. Although I do want to make the point that the the story isn't that only invest in the early years and forget about later.

00;09;21;29 - 00;09;47;17
Dana Suskind
I mean, it's sort of like, you know, it's you know, you have to you have to start early, but, you know, continue. It's not like with our children, we would invest in the first few years of life and then stick them in a closet. I mean, education would be a continuum, but but we missed the mark in that we just for any child, there's a vacuum of support in those critical early years, which makes sense.

00;09;47;19 - 00;10;05;21
Paul Sullivan
And it just made sense. I wasn't, advocating some new, Chicago school of, of parenting in which, you know, AJ invest and then have at it go, go for it. But but the point here being is that, you know, once you get to kindergarten in first grade, there are structures in place. Now, those structures broke down during Covid 19.

00;10;05;21 - 00;10;12;09
Paul Sullivan
But but we didn't sort of see that there are no structures in place between a zero and five. When you go to kindergarten.

00;10;12;12 - 00;10;40;24
Dana Suskind
Yeah, exactly. I mean, although, you know, they're starting with the pre-K for sure. But the the neuroscience, which has become clearer and clearer, is that learning and brain development doesn't start on the first day of school, but the first day of life. And while our country was just at the forefront of public education, education as the great equalizer, and it really was why we, you know, we're, you know, last century, you know, at the forefront in terms of nations.

00;10;40;24 - 00;10;50;06
Dana Suskind
But now we're sort of because of not keeping up. We're going to ultimately potentially pay the price if we don't start investing earlier.

00;10;50;08 - 00;11;11;01
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, I want to spend most of our time here on, on, on your current book in a Parent Nation, it's, you know, I've read it. I was fortunate enough to read it early on. I mean, it's a movement making book. And you're going to win a lot of award for it. But if there's ever word for the best timing in the world, like coming out of, you know, Covid as people trying to figure out what's next, how did the idea come about?

00;11;11;01 - 00;11;20;11
Paul Sullivan
Was this something you started working on, you know, pre-pandemic because, I mean, right now I can see there's such an appetite for for a lot of stuff that you talk about in the book.

00;11;20;14 - 00;11;49;21
Dana Suskind
Yeah. So, you know, after my first book, which really looked at at the individual level, what is it that children need that parents and caregivers can provide? Right. What does the neuroscience show and that book, plus the work at the center really works at the individual level, working with families. And this is, you know, back in 20 1516 and just working with more and more families way before the pandemic, what became clearer and clearer was that we have this powerful science.

00;11;49;21 - 00;12;13;18
Dana Suskind
Parents want to embrace that. But I just saw barrier after barrier being placed in front of so many of the families that that I work with on the south side of Chicago and across the country. And so the idea had been percolating, honestly, just the fact that how is it that we have this powerful science, we've got this huge economic case, but we sort of leave parents on their own in the early years.

00;12;13;20 - 00;12;37;14
Dana Suskind
And so I started thinking about how can we use that neuroscience to chart a pathway forward for our for our country societally so that we we better align what we do in support of families and, you know, thinking a lot about the families that I work with, especially from low income backgrounds. And then so I'd been thinking about then Covid 19 hits and you're like, oh my gosh, right.

00;12;37;14 - 00;13;01;21
Dana Suskind
It's what is so clear is that it was like a, you know, an earthquake that showed us how shaky our infrastructure supports for all families was. And so I was like, you know what? I want to broaden the lens because it's not just, you know, obviously the families I work with are most impacted, but all families in this country, except for, you know, those who have so many resources that you can close the gap on your own.

00;13;01;23 - 00;13;16;12
Dana Suskind
And so I think that I started before, but really when I was writing during the pandemic, it just accelerated that this needs to be a whole societal, you know, reframe in some ways.

00;13;16;15 - 00;13;22;15
Paul Sullivan
And when the pandemic hit, were you still able to perform surgeries or did things pause?

00;13;22;17 - 00;13;48;27
Dana Suskind
So we some of the the more, you know, non-emergent cases, the elective cases were put on hold for sure. And we had to sort of we had different strategies of saying, you know what, what needs to go earlier. But, you know, I remember in the early days being on call and having to track, you know, performer trickiest me on a young, relatively young guy who got Covid 19 and his wife had just died.

00;13;48;27 - 00;13;55;16
Dana Suskind
It was a really pretty sad and upsetting period. So I mean, you know, so pretty tough.

00;13;55;16 - 00;14;26;04
Paul Sullivan
But yeah. And but that was kind of the, the short question into the longer question, which was, you know, as you said, the first book was more about individuals in individual agency, but this is these societal forces and what we call sort of some systemic, you know, biases against people. Having done the research, having been able to really see firsthand, you know, the whole world, to see firsthand that this sort of disparity between people who could afford childcare, people who could work from home and afford childcare, people could at least work from home and didn't have childcare.

00;14;26;04 - 00;14;51;04
Paul Sullivan
And then, of course, all the essential workers out there who couldn't work from home and either could or could not, you know, afford childcare. What were some of the big takeaways that you had? Like you get like 2 or 3. This is like this has to stop. Like this is something that we can do now to get us closer to, you know, a more productive parent nation to acknowledge that, you know, the majority people are parents.

00;14;51;08 - 00;14;53;08
Paul Sullivan
They were caregivers at some point.

00;14;53;11 - 00;15;20;24
Dana Suskind
Yeah. I mean, I, I might want to clarify your question a little bit more, but, I mean, what was so clear is that, you know, like never before, the idea that none of us parent alone, became so clear, you know, as parents were called on to be everything for their children while the schools closed down, you know, parents, teachers, camp counselors, therapists, you know, and it was just unsustainable.

00;15;20;24 - 00;15;21;15
Dana Suskind


00;15;21;18 - 00;15;33;07
Paul Sullivan
And even more so for for parents of children with disabilities, because certainly if your child needed an OT or a speech therapist, you're not qualified to do that. As a parent, you can turn on the zoom, but you can't do all these other things.

00;15;33;09 - 00;15;55;08
Dana Suskind
Know for sure. And, you know, everything sort of stopped. Or I mean, there were some silver linings related to Covid. On the medical early intervention side in that all of a sudden we realize, oh, we can do telemedicine. I mean, you can't do surgery, but but I can tell you that, you know, it did did the few silver linings, you know, of Covid is.

00;15;55;08 - 00;16;22;03
Dana Suskind
Yes. I think it accelerated finally, we were doing some more telehealth type of things and especially children with disabilities. But it's true. It's so many, you know, so many things closed down. I mean, we are seeing early, early, research showing just that kids born during the pandemic, you know, have delayed milestones. They see much more delayed, than their pre-pandemic counterparts.

00;16;22;03 - 00;16;40;08
Dana Suskind
And it's not related to having their mothers having Covid. It's the most likely the stress that parents are feeling, related to everything going on and it being transmitted to the children and impacting their, their development. So, that I know I didn't answer the question, but, I.

00;16;40;08 - 00;16;55;01
Paul Sullivan
Mean, I, I do it because when you say that but us, I mean, it also, I think a benefit for working parents is we've also been able that we realize that we can do parent teacher conferences, you know, online, you can have a zoom link and do the parent teacher conference. You don't have to take the full day off and go to work.

00;16;55;03 - 00;17;00;21
Paul Sullivan
But when you think about it, let me phrase it differently. What's the ideal parent nation look like?

00;17;00;23 - 00;17;39;07
Dana Suskind
Yeah. Well, you know, that's I always say that that's the beauty of the neuroscience. I think that if you follow the neuroscience of healthy brain development, you can really understand what is ideal parent nation would look like. And just let me define what a parent nation is. A parent nation in my definition is, you know, society that values and supports the labor and love of raising the next generation, especially in the early years, and knowing that the health and well-being of children is dependent on support of their parents and in understanding what the neuroscience says, it really says, look, learning doesn't begin on the first day of school.

00;17;39;07 - 00;18;07;11
Dana Suskind
It starts on the first day of life that parents and caregivers are children's first and most important brain architects. And they need and and should have the support necessary, which they get. None of in that environment matters. Stable calm environment. And if you use that as a structure for understanding what what the policies and norms and supports look like, you can better understand how each part of society can best support parents.

00;18;07;11 - 00;18;26;11
Dana Suskind
Because I want to emphasize that, you know, this supportive family is a parent. Nation isn't just a policy play. I mean, certainly policies play an important role, but employers play an important role. Health care plays an important role. Parents being allies and play an important role. But it's that's basically the structure.

00;18;26;12 - 00;18;42;12
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. No. And I agree with you because, you know, I live outside of New York City and yeah, so many financial services firms, you know, they never allowed people to work from home. Before the pandemic, we had no choice. And these, these people who were, you know, deemed sort of essential financial services traders, they realized they could do everything at home.

00;18;42;12 - 00;19;02;15
Paul Sullivan
And now that people are kind of, you know, the CEOs are trying to figure it out. A lot of these financial services firms, I feel like getting it wrong, in which you're trying to force workers to go back, you know, full time, five days a week for for jobs that it's just not necessary. And it's, you know, where I am, I've seen it with certain from zoom better in others.

00;19;02;15 - 00;19;19;25
Paul Sullivan
But they're causing, you know, in dads who are fully involved in their lives and moms who want to be, you know, fully involved in their child's life, making other choices around their careers. And so these are like corporations that aren't leading. And, you know, a couple of them are getting it right. And, you know, shock, some of the best employees are going to them and not staying.

00;19;19;26 - 00;19;34;25
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. You know, but one of the things I want to talk about is I know you're developing, it's been amazing. We're all about you're developing something called a parent village. Maybe you can just talk a little bit about what you mean by that phrase. You know, there's how where we all kind of, like, make margaritas and hide from our screaming kids.

00;19;34;25 - 00;19;35;06
Paul Sullivan
Is that a.

00;19;35;06 - 00;19;56;22
Dana Suskind
Parent? Yeah, well, we it's an opportunity to. So, you know, I always joke that I'm a surgeon and, you know, you never leave things up for chance. And so, you know, at the end of the day, it's what I care most deeply about are the ideas manifesting in the world. And as you said, the lucky thing about this timing is I think a lot of people are talking about it.

00;19;56;22 - 00;20;19;17
Dana Suskind
So maybe we'll finally get that, tipping point that we need. But in the the hope to manifest these ideas in the world, we put together, I have an amazing team. You know, Heidi Stevens, this woman early Flores, amongst other people. And we put together sort of a curriculum because we said, okay, if we want to manifest this change, what does it look like?

00;20;19;17 - 00;20;41;27
Dana Suskind
And it's and these parent villages are just an offer is a four part curriculum that allows groups of individuals to come together. I mean, whether it be parents or allies, people at work or organizations or just sort of, you know, lead dads who want a structure for what we say finding community, forging collective identity and fighting for change.

00;20;41;27 - 00;21;06;27
Dana Suskind
What are, you know, to change the narrative of like, to change the narrative that really society can and should play a role so they come together and sort of think about the things that they want to see different in their communities or their workplace organizations. So, I don't know, something as simple as, you know, we need a lactation room, which wouldn't be for the lead dads, I guess.

00;21;06;29 - 00;21;39;06
Dana Suskind
You know, in, in our organization or we really want to have the ability to advise our employer that, you know, we should have more workplace flexibility or we really want to be connected to an organization that's fighting for paid leave, or you know, they're it's really just a structure to bring people together to elevate their. Because one of the issues, a major issue that I see in this country is that we have, up until now, little expectation of society playing a role in supporting us.

00;21;39;13 - 00;22;01;22
Dana Suskind
Right? We always think this is all on us, right? As a lead dad, as a lead mom, you know, when things aren't going well, it's because we've failed, as opposed to seeing how the dearth of societal structures impacts it. So to try to reframe it and elevate the expectation this curriculum helps, you know, shift, shift our expectations and activate people.

00;22;01;22 - 00;22;23;25
Paul Sullivan
So, yeah, it's intuitive, but the role that others play, as at this event recently and one of the panelists is a woman who's an economist working at running a think tank, and she flat out, you said, you know, if I could find, a company or an employee or nonprofit that had high quality childcare onsite, I would never leave that job.

00;22;23;27 - 00;22;41;15
Paul Sullivan
And here she is. You know, in representing, I'm not gonna say that she is representing her employer out there and saying, you know, essentially by saying they're not really doing, you know, their role and it's it's issues like that. I'd love for you to delve into a bit because, you know, earlier this year, we had a lot of conversations about, paid parental leave.

00;22;41;18 - 00;22;57;20
Paul Sullivan
I'm all for it. I'm all for it to get men to take more leave. I'm all for it to, you know, have lower income people to have the chance to to bond more with their children. But, you know, if Covid taught us anything, it's that, you know, parenting challenges don't stop after the first, you know, six months.

00;22;57;23 - 00;23;18;14
Paul Sullivan
You know, children aren't less, you know, time consuming. They have different needs as they get older. What, you know, what can companies do if not, you know, a big you know, national what can companies do to sort of recognize this need and recognize that caregiving is essential not just for families, but for the functioning, of our economy?

00;23;18;17 - 00;23;30;03
Dana Suskind
Yeah. No, I actually I love this question because I actually think I'm quite bullish. That's a term, I guess, from your, your world, on the role of business because.

00;23;30;06 - 00;23;33;12
Paul Sullivan
You are married to an economist. So, you know, you know.

00;23;33;14 - 00;23;53;13
Dana Suskind
Bullish that that, that they can play, you know, you know, they're the economic engines of our of our country. And I always say if they can bring their innovation and economic might to this issue, you know, showing that what's good for parents and caregivers is good for the bottom line. I think it'll really help move the rest of society fail forward.

00;23;53;13 - 00;24;18;02
Dana Suskind
And especially in this moment in time with such low unemployment and people, employees really, you know, talking with their feet. Right. So many, you know, I can't remember the stat, but a number of, you know, a huge portion of millennials said, just as that female economist said, that, look, if another company had better family friendly policies, they would, you know, switch jobs.

00;24;18;04 - 00;24;46;19
Dana Suskind
And, you know, if, you know, if employers start sort of acting in, in that way, both, you know, instituting more family friendly policies, which, you know, we can talk about all of them. But I think the the basic sort of buckets are, you know, flexibility, reliability, you know, a living wage, you know, chat, you know, help with childcare that, it'll start sort of pushing the rest of society along.

00;24;46;21 - 00;25;01;28
Dana Suskind
The truth is, is that employers are hurting. Parents are hurting the most, right, with the lack of infrastructure. But employees are hurting too. Employers are hurting as well. So I think they can play a large role in shifting what's going on in this country.

00;25;01;28 - 00;25;19;01
Paul Sullivan
So yeah, and I think about that, you know, I mean so many, you know, all the stats, you know, CEOs of some of the top companies, three quarters of them are men and of them, you know, the majority of them had a spouse who stayed at home. And they suffer from what, you know, any, you know, kind of so-called confirmation bias.

00;25;19;01 - 00;25;33;22
Paul Sullivan
They got to where they, they got to because of what they did. And therefore other people should do the same. What does it take to sort of, you know, open the eyes of corporate leaders to say, okay, you may have gotten to where you you were doing what you did, but there are other pathways to success. And guess what?

00;25;33;26 - 00;25;47;27
Paul Sullivan
You know, that was 30 years ago when you started your journey. This is a journey to is it enough like is it is do the workers need to vote with their feet to, you know, engage fathers and engage? Working moms need to say, you know, enough.

00;25;47;29 - 00;26;13;11
Dana Suskind
I think that's actually what's happening. And I'm hearing I mean, I actually you're I mean, maybe I'm having confirmation bias, but, you know, I've been talking to a lot, you know, a lot of people sort of in, in corporate America. And it feels like the narrative is shifting. There's much more discussion around this issue. And, you know, I was even at the there's a group called Best Places for Working Parents.

00;26;13;11 - 00;26;35;22
Dana Suskind
I think we mentioned they're down in Texas and they're really helping corporations. You know, businesses be, you know, start instituting more family friendly policies. And it just feels like, you know, the the discussion is really bubbling up. And there's actually movement. I mean, you know, on the on the policy side of things, it in some ways it feels stuck.

00;26;35;22 - 00;26;55;11
Dana Suskind
Although I think we're going to start seeing movement. But I think there's active movement, in corporate America just, you know, whether because they, there's, you know, CEOs are seeing the light or they're, they're saying, wow, we won't be able to actually have top talent unless we institute this thing.

00;26;55;13 - 00;27;22;04
Paul Sullivan
So, you know, one of the, the, the sections of the book that still resonates me do is around your, your first husband, Don and Don drowned after pulling saving two children. Lake Michigan claims surgeon. A deeply caring man. Father three yeah. There's a section in which, he had to make these sort of elaborate reasons to sort of leave the office to see his own kids.

00;27;22;04 - 00;27;40;07
Paul Sullivan
Your kids, you know, do something, but play sport. Good ballet, whatever. And there's this wonderful line in there where he he sort of gets caught by this kind of, you know, junior physician who sort of says, oh, you know, I'm going to mangle it now, but oh, is this your, you know, triple top secret meeting with, doctor so-and-so, the head of X, Y, Z department, and a kind of was.

00;27;40;07 - 00;28;05;17
Paul Sullivan
But you know, we've in, you know, ten, 15 years, we've gotten to a point now where I think, a parent would be able to put on his or her calendar, leaving for a ballgame or leaving for a ballet recital or leaving for, you know, middle school graduation. But what will it take to get to a point where, you know, without suffering any sort of, you know, work related penalty?

00;28;05;19 - 00;28;26;19
Paul Sullivan
A father could put on his schedule, you know, need, need one hour, to walk with, teenage child to discuss, you know, school not not a particular event, but just to be a parent. What would it take for us to get to that place as as a society where, where a father would feel comfortable doing that?

00;28;26;21 - 00;29;01;01
Dana Suskind
No, no. And I love that you bring up the The Secret Parenting of Don Lou, because it was it was just, a hilarious story that was actually told. It is memorial by his, by his then, nurse practitioner. But, you know how it look. Things take time. But the truth is, is that we've got it's not just about policy shifts, as you say, but it's really about norms, shifts when you know, the sort of we tear down the secret parenting in leaders, right?

00;29;01;06 - 00;29;43;16
Dana Suskind
CEOs, people who are, you know, Don was, you know, surgeon in chief, actually, they do a disservice by hiding it. Right? But by putting wearing it on their sleeve proudly that you can be a successful CEO, you can be a successful surgeon in chief, you can be a successful whatever and also be a very involved in parent. And by doing that, not only do you get you, you give permission to others to be able to to say, look, parent and worker, and by having this impenetrable sort of wall between the two, you actually you short shrift both things.

00;29;43;16 - 00;30;07;15
Dana Suskind
And I think so I think it's a matter of time, but the more and more men and women in leadership positions who who are able to wear it proudly, I think that's that's how the shifts are going to to occur. And people are going to be able to say, and, you know, and I've even found myself like, you know, I'm in a relative position of privilege.

00;30;07;15 - 00;30;29;25
Dana Suskind
You know, I'm a surgeon who runs a big research center and really letting my staff know, look, I've got to go and get my nails done with only, you know, gives them permission to to say, you know what I'm going to say? And it doesn't mean that you don't work hard, right? This is not about decreasing efficiency or effectiveness.

00;30;29;25 - 00;30;37;06
Dana Suskind
It's about understanding that that you can be a great worker and a great parent.

00;30;37;06 - 00;30;46;23
Paul Sullivan
So yeah, I mean, come on, Danny, you don't need to yell at your employees in person. You can yell at them over zoom.

00;30;46;26 - 00;30;51;16
Dana Suskind
Take that. Take that scalpel.

00;30;51;19 - 00;31;09;13
Paul Sullivan
You know, it makes me think of this. I spent some time earlier in the week, with this, general counsel at a gigantic, financial services firm, and I asked him. And a financial services firm is very clear that it wants all of its workers back in the office, no matter what. And I said, you know, what have you been doing?

00;31;09;13 - 00;31;28;16
Paul Sullivan
And I said, well, you know, I have the privilege and I'm trying to cut some people some slack, but I'll look at the metrics every week and I'll see if not enough people have been in and if I need to get our numbers up, I'll make sure I go in five days a week. And I looked at them and I said, I think that's the exact wrong thing for you to do.

00;31;28;18 - 00;31;54;14
Paul Sullivan
And so what do you mean? I said, if you are modeling the opposite, if you are showing that you can be just as productive as a general counsel, going working from home three days a week, you know, we do need to meet. We do need to meet. But, you know, and he had just gotten done telling me how enjoyable I had been for two years, working from home and being with his kids and saving, you know, kind of three hours a day on commuting.

00;31;54;16 - 00;32;09;24
Paul Sullivan
Yet he did. He was afraid to model. Like, I just think that just as he said, if only those leaders would model the behavior of you can still be a productive worker. When you talk about in the book of the sort of myth of the ideal worker, but you can still be a productive worker and a human being and a parent.

00;32;09;27 - 00;32;10;18
Dana Suskind


00;32;10;20 - 00;32;13;20
Paul Sullivan
At the same time that we don't have to have this dichotomy anymore.

00;32;13;20 - 00;32;24;18
Dana Suskind
Yeah. I mean, I hate to say it, but effective people are going to be effective at work and working from home. Ineffective people are going to be ineffective in both places. So why? Why? You know what.

00;32;24;24 - 00;32;38;23
Paul Sullivan
I've said this like it's in a company's best interest to to institute these policies because it's their highest performing workers have options and their highest performing workers, you know, dads or moms are going to say, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm going to leave here and I'm going to get a job somewhere else. That allows me flexibility.

00;32;38;25 - 00;32;45;02
Paul Sullivan
And their lowest performing workers aren't because nobody wants to hire their lowest performing worker, so it's just not in the best interest.

00;32;45;04 - 00;33;11;02
Dana Suskind
I know, I know, but but it towards the question that you also originally asked, it's also the stigma around, you know especially men and like paid leave. And the fact that it's not you know, often especially, you know, men and you know, in financial, you know, sort of service areas, etc., there's, you know, they have pretty robust paid parental leaves.

00;33;11;03 - 00;33;44;18
Dana Suskind
The family leaves, but they're not taken because of sort of the stigma. And, you know, working to shift that I think is important, not just, you know, it's important on many levels, but, you know, there's certainly a lot of science showing that if they're in a, you know, in a, in a, you know, cisgender marriage, that it, you know, decreases divorce, it increases attachment to the child and improves if it's, they're married to a woman, you know, her sort of, workforce participation, you know, in the long run, etc..

00;33;44;18 - 00;33;52;26
Dana Suskind
So there are many benefits, to it as a put it, in addition, you get to have time with your the child that you brought into the world, right.

00;33;52;26 - 00;33;54;05
Paul Sullivan
Exactly. Yeah.

00;33;54;08 - 00;33;55;05
Dana Suskind
Yeah.

00;33;55;07 - 00;34;16;27
Paul Sullivan
We've been talking a lot about kids here and parenting, but I want to, switch to retired people because you talk about this, and and I was at a conference recently in Los Angeles where I was brought up again, and I was out there, even I know, you know, the author. Fair play. And she sort of wondered out loud, you know, the AARP, the American Association of Retired Persons, has so much power.

00;34;16;27 - 00;34;36;07
Paul Sullivan
And she said, why isn't there something like the NAACP, as in the American Association of Caring Professionals? And look, if you're retired in America, if you're living on the basic minimum Social Security, you're you're not living a robust life. But there is a safety net person that in place. And there's an acknowledgment that, you know, we need to sort of help retire.

00;34;36;10 - 00;34;56;15
Paul Sullivan
You are the at least the most vulnerable retired people. That was only something that happened, you know, 50 some odd years, 50 or 60 years ago, and it's now sort of ingrained. What's the path forward in this moment? What's the path for it for for children and their caregivers to get that, you know, basic level of support, like like the elderly in America?

00;34;56;17 - 00;35;16;25
Dana Suskind
Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, that's a big argument of the book is that, you know, we've got a huge list. You know, we've got the the research case, we've got the economic case, we've got every case in the book. And what we don't have is the public and political will and really is the only path, not the only path.

00;35;16;25 - 00;35;39;10
Dana Suskind
But I think the, the path with the greatest potential for success is really that same sort of, you know, coalition building as the AARP did. And because not only do you have to push forward these policy changes, but you have to maintain them, you know, there are many there are many things that pass and then roll back as we see.

00;35;39;17 - 00;35;53;02
Dana Suskind
So yeah, that's a lot of the descend. You know, that's sort of some of the origins of the parent villages etc., is how do we start sort of pushing towards this, in a large tent, sort of way?

00;35;53;05 - 00;36;06;05
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. Dana Suskind, surgeon and bestselling author, thank you for being my guest. And the company does podcast. I always like to give, my my guests the last word. Any any parting thoughts?

00;36;06;08 - 00;36;26;19
Dana Suskind
No. Other than I love what you're doing. You know, I deliberately called my book Parent Nation. People said, what about Mom Nation? Because it, you know, mothers, fathers, you know, all caregivers should be part of have an important role to in raising the next generation. So love what you're doing.

00;36;26;22 - 00;36;41;14
Paul Sullivan
Thanks. Right. I'll tell you a little story of my my tween is is put out fliers to be a, a babysitter, you know, babysitter and training this summer. And instead of putting mother's helper on the flier, she put parent helper. And when my wife said, oh.

00;36;41;17 - 00;36;42;19
Dana Suskind
I love that.

00;36;42;19 - 00;36;46;17
Paul Sullivan
I could help dads, too, I was like, all right, all right. At least, you know, change starts at home.

00;36;46;23 - 00;36;55;18
Dana Suskind
So I think fathers play such a huge role in how they view themselves, how they choose partners, how. Yeah. So,

00;36;55;20 - 00;36;57;22
Paul Sullivan
Thank you again, Dana, for being my guest.

00;36;57;24 - 00;36;58;26
Dana Suskind
Thank you so much.