EP51: How To Mix Crime Fighting and Fatherhood Artwork

The Company of Dads Podcast

Paul Sullivan, former NY Times columnist, explores the lives, stories, joys, and challenges of Lead Dads – fathers who lead in raising children, supporting their partner, and balancing their career. New episode drops every Tuesday.

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The Company of Dads Podcast

EP51: How To Mix Crime Fighting and Fatherhood

January 10, 2023 • Paul Sullivan • Season 1 • Episode 51

Interview With Trevor Kempner / Assistant District Attorney, Lead Dad

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

Trevor Kempner, assistant district attorney, a cappella singer, thirtysomething Lead Dad, is a fascinating study of human complexity. He went to Yale where he studied theater and then onto Stanford Law School where after graduating he became a business litigator. It didn’t take, and he moved to the San Francisco District Attorney’s office where vice president Kamala Harris once worked. When the courts closed and work went remote he found himself assuming the role of Lead Dad, while his wife, who works for Apple, found her workday just as packed as before. Two years later, they have two sons. Listen to what he’s done to thrive as a lawyer while supporting his wife in her career.

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00;00;06;12 - 00;00;30;01
Paul Sullivan
Today my guest on The Company of Dad's podcast is Trevor Kempner assistant district attorney, a cappella singer, 30 something lead dad. He's a fascinating study of human complexity. He went to Yale, where he studied theater, and then on to Stanford Law School, where after graduating, he became a business litigator but didn't stick. After two years, he moved to the San Francisco District Attorney's office, where Vice President Kamala Harris once worked.

00;00;30;03 - 00;00;56;03
Paul Sullivan
What do you did there? I won't advise any father to replicate because he started out with misdemeanors. Not too bad. Went to felonies very bad and is now working something called special prosecutions, which I'm not sure what that means, but I'm sure it's really, really bad. But we're talking to Trevor because he and his wife Meghan, an executive at Apple, have two young sons, and Trevor is a lead that his listeners know in the Company of Dads podcast.

00;00;56;04 - 00;01;22;15
Paul Sullivan
We aim to explore the suites sublime, silly and strange aspects of being a lead dad in a world where men are the go to parents. I live in a world where men who are the go to parent aren't always comfortable talking about their roles. Lead dad is not a traditional role for men. Whether you work full time, part time, or devote all your time to your family, but to growing demographic population, nowhere more so than in parents in their 20s and 30s.

00;01;22;18 - 00;01;29;11
Paul Sullivan
Trevor, welcome to the Company of Dads podcast. Are you ready to speak for an entire generation?

00;01;29;14 - 00;01;44;15
Trevor Kempner
Well, thank you for having me. I don't know that I'm ready to to be labeled as speaking for my entire generation, but I'll speak for myself and, for other members of my cohort. Identify with or agree with it. All the better. That'd be great.

00;01;44;18 - 00;01;59;19
Paul Sullivan
All right. Let's get serious here. Attorney Kepner, I'm going to put you on. I'm going to put you on the stand here. Okay. Is it true that as an undergraduate at Yale University, you were a member of not one, but two acapella groups?

00;01;59;22 - 00;02;18;25
Trevor Kempner
That is true. I, I was in one group for the first three years of college called the Baker's Dozen. And then I was in a group that is, you know, all senior group that you have to audition for again. Called the wedding poofs. Which, I was very lucky to be in our centennial year in 2009.

00;02;18;25 - 00;02;38;10
Trevor Kempner
So we got, you know, a couple extra an extra special concerts out of it. And, you know, I manage our world tour. One of our world tour managers, which was incredible. Because I basically just got, you know, a blank slate and as long as I could find concerts to pay for a particular location or a stay, then we could go there.

00;02;38;13 - 00;02;56;24
Trevor Kempner
So that was amazing. I, you know, people regularly ask me like, oh, is it like, like pitch perfect? And I'm like, wow. Not really like it was. It was that dorky? Yes. But, you know, not exactly like that, but, you know, more than anything, I just got to meet a lot of really wonderful people and travel the world, which was incredible.

00;02;56;27 - 00;03;12;03
Paul Sullivan
Well, okay, I'm not going to lay off the stand just yet before we get into other stuff. I like to, Tony Kepner. Judge, I like to, enter, something into evidence here. And I'd like to see, if, Tony to if you could identify this one a better.

00;03;12;05 - 00;03;18;12
Trevor Kempner
Way, I could cause I'm. I mean, I might shed you guys until, I mean, me and I can.

00;03;18;18 - 00;03;21;09
Paul Sullivan
Can you identify that, attorney there?

00;03;21;11 - 00;03;22;26
Trevor Kempner
I couldn't hear it. So.

00;03;22;28 - 00;03;31;00
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. So no. Oh, yeah. The listeners will hear it. It is, the, girl from Ipanema.

00;03;31;02 - 00;03;36;13
Trevor Kempner
Oh, yeah. So it was probably me singing it when I didn't hear it, but I can tell you now, he found that clip.

00;03;36;16 - 00;03;52;09
Paul Sullivan
Singing in that clip. And I have to ask you, what came first? Your love of your wife, who was born in Brazil, or your decision to sing The Girl from Ipanema for the whispers?

00;03;52;12 - 00;04;22;18
Trevor Kempner
The former for sure. And I actually met during the year I was in the whipping post because she was at the time, her roommate was, at the time, dating, a guy. I was in the web and books with. And, it's a funny story where, you know, Megan, I was living in. I'd been living in China the summer before, and Megan had been on Facebook, and I was, hanging out in China with a mutual friend of ours and Megan reached out to that mutual friend and was like, who is this guy?

00;04;22;18 - 00;04;31;12
Trevor Kempner
And like, I've never met him because he is like, what the hell? Never met this guy. Spoiler. We had met. I remember that she doesn't, but, I'm sure.

00;04;31;12 - 00;04;32;29
Paul Sullivan
I'm sure you never let her forget that.

00;04;33;02 - 00;04;53;10
Trevor Kempner
Of course, all the time. Which is funny because she usually remembers people better than I do. And I remember useless facts better than she does. But, No. So, we got introduced by, you know, those roommates. And the second we started dating, everyone we knew, we realized we had tons and tons and tons of mutual friends and everyone.

00;04;53;13 - 00;05;15;01
Trevor Kempner
It was like, oh, yeah, that makes total sense. Like, of course you guys are dating. Which is like, you know, it's a good thing to hear. It's a lot of, positive reinforcement. Yeah, but, No. Megan, I thought it would be fun to sort of. There was an old arrangement of The Girl from Ipanema in the whiff repertoire.

00;05;15;04 - 00;05;27;25
Trevor Kempner
I updated it a little bit. And with Megan's help, translated portions of, You know, the verse that I sang in the chorus that, the rest of the group sang into Portuguese? So.

00;05;27;28 - 00;05;36;03
Paul Sullivan
You're like, I, I, you know, speak Spanish about, a little bit of Portuguese, but your, pronunciation. It's really good.

00;05;36;06 - 00;05;52;09
Trevor Kempner
I had, I had inside help. I mean, I would literally just, like, sing the verse to Megan, and she's like, now you said this wrong. Be like, oh, okay. Okay. So go for the chorus. Like, how do I tell the guys how to sing this part just like, like this. And so, you know, I would just, you know, take notes, say, okay, okay, I got it.

00;05;52;11 - 00;05;58;08
Trevor Kempner
That's why I had a lot of help. I do not speak Portuguese. But I faked it for, like, you know, a minute and a half.

00;05;58;10 - 00;06;16;18
Paul Sullivan
Which worked. You know, one of the things we talk about, in the company of dads is how, priorities evolve. You know, hopefully consciously. But they evolve so that we can fulfill our potential life, get, you know, more complicated. And I think, like, you know, you spent a year traveling and singing with with impulse probably is free.

00;06;16;18 - 00;06;37;08
Paul Sullivan
Is is free. Could could be. Now you've got a wonderful job as a as a litigator. Your wife is working on, you know, international expansion for for Apple. You've got two young boys. You live in San Francisco. That's a lot going on. How have your priorities as as a man, as a husband, as a as a father, as a worker?

00;06;37;08 - 00;06;39;22
Paul Sullivan
How have they how are they evolved?

00;06;39;25 - 00;07;04;08
Trevor Kempner
Yeah. That's a that's a great question. I mean, this is something that perhaps not in those terms, but, you know, a line of thinking that I think about a lot. You know, who we were and what our priorities were. You know, 15 years ago when we when we met our 13 years ago when we met, our obviously very different from what they are now.

00;07;04;10 - 00;07;24;00
Trevor Kempner
You know, something that I regularly say is that I feel very thankful and lucky that, you know, the people that Megan and I have grown into in the last 13 years or people that still love each other very much, because people do change for sure, and their priorities change. And what they want out of life changes.

00;07;24;03 - 00;07;42;10
Trevor Kempner
So, you know, I mean, I guess the way I often think about this is, you know, I'm sure that it was was similar. You know, you're probably a half a generation ahead of me, I'd say. I think you would probably count yourself as a Gen Xer. And I am firmly a millennial, kind of square in the middle, I think.

00;07;42;10 - 00;08;15;16
Trevor Kempner
I don't know what the actual distribution is, but, you know, I often feel like my, your generation probably as well, but my generation was, you know, the, the first generation where college admissions statistics started to be like the thing that governed our lives, where they just I guess they just reached a breaking point where the percentage of for admission for each of these schools got low enough that like, everyone freaked out and like the resources, entire infrastructure and mentality built around, you know, like this is the pinnacle of your life's achievement.

00;08;15;17 - 00;08;35;15
Trevor Kempner
Yeah. You know, which like, as a 16, 17, 18 year old, you're told, like, you know, your entire life is leading up to getting into a great college. And then you you get there, you know, the dog catches the car and you're like, what the fuck do I do now? And you're 18 and you're living away from home for the first time.

00;08;35;17 - 00;08;51;03
Trevor Kempner
And so many people I talked to, felt that way. And they were like, what the what the hell do I like? This is what I was aiming for. I don't know if I want to go to grad school. There isn't like this further thing along the hamster wheel to aim for, like, I'm I'm here. What the hell do I do?

00;08;51;05 - 00;09;14;24
Trevor Kempner
And so I, like many college students, had a series of existential crises, and, you know, started to realize, like, hey, you know what? I don't know what my path looks like, and that's okay. And, you know, the year that I was in the WIPs and the year I met Megan, I happened to be taking off from school because the schedule was pretty demanding.

00;09;14;26 - 00;09;23;19
Trevor Kempner
You know, most of us in the group to be or off, got a job, you know, doing marketing for a local merchants guild, which was fun, taught me a lot.

00;09;23;23 - 00;09;32;23
Paul Sullivan
But just to tell the listeners, I mean, you're playing like 100 plus concerts all over the place, correct? I mean, this is almost like a full time job being in this. Oh, for.

00;09;32;23 - 00;09;51;20
Trevor Kempner
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. And that's why most of us take the year off. I mean, if you count World Tour 100 is probably a low bet for the total number of concerts to say nothing of rehearsal, etc.. It's really, really demanding. And luckily, the job I was working at the time was was very understanding and very flexible.

00;09;51;22 - 00;10;14;22
Trevor Kempner
But still so, you know, during that year, I got a year to sort of reset off the hamster wheel, do something that like, was pretty tangential to what the traditional path of, like, just do your four years, work hard, get out, go to grad school, do whatever. Yeah. And bring that year I got some great advice where it was like, I've just read, read a lot, read whenever you can, read books, read news articles, do whatever and see what catches your interest.

00;10;14;25 - 00;10;28;19
Trevor Kempner
Because, you know, I went to college thinking that I wanted to be an actor that didn't pan out. I got, you know, as the typical, like, high school to college thing, where in high school I was like, oh, wow. Like I'm pretty good. And then I got to college and I was like, oh, never mind. These people are actually good at this.

00;10;28;19 - 00;10;39;13
Trevor Kempner
I am decent, but like, I'm a, you know, potentially signing up to, to enter a professional marketplace where I'm like, even in this smaller pool, decidedly mediocre.

00;10;39;13 - 00;10;43;01
Paul Sullivan
Right before you go from the college pool to the, you know, professional pool.

00;10;43;01 - 00;11;15;25
Trevor Kempner
Yeah, right. It's just like I there were a lot of auditions that I wasn't. You know, I wasn't getting the role for, etcetera. And then I just got to the point where I was like, this is this is not a viable career path for me. Yeah. So, I say to theater studies major, but transitioned into a lot of, you know, playwriting and, you know, analysis, critical writing, etc., and just sort of fell in love with writing, the process of writing, and during my year off just naturally started gravitating toward anything I could read on, criminal justice and, and climate, those are kind of the two things.

00;11;15;25 - 00;11;38;11
Trevor Kempner
So I went to law school, got really interested in all of that. But, you know, once you are off the hamster wheel, the, you know, the way a lot of us are raised, the hamster wheel of constant achievement. Yeah. It kind of opens up a lot of things in terms of perspective, in terms of what you think and what you want your life to be.

00;11;38;16 - 00;12;07;11
Trevor Kempner
And, you know, if you had asked 18 year old me, you know, in 17 years, do you think you'd identify as a lead dad? An 18 year old me would have been like, what the. Of course not. Like, I don't know if I want kids, etc., etc. like all this sort of stuff. So, you know, this is all to say that, like, once you realize that it's okay to have things in life that are really important to you and they don't necessarily need to be important to, anybody else.

00;12;07;11 - 00;12;28;14
Trevor Kempner
I mean, obviously your partner, your spouse, that's I'm sure. But you know, what other people think of you and your priorities and your achievements and whatever. If you're okay with it, that's a lot more important. You know, a lot of people say, you know, as you get older, you care less about what people think. And that's probably epitomized by like, cantankerous elderly people who are just like saying whatever comes to mind.

00;12;28;17 - 00;12;38;10
Trevor Kempner
But I think there's also a it's a gradual process. And I think a lot of that happens, you know, in, you know, I don't know if I would technically know myself middle age yet. I probably am, but I hope not.

00;12;38;12 - 00;12;42;04
Paul Sullivan
You're you're 35 years old. I hope you make it past 70. Okay.

00;12;42;04 - 00;13;16;08
Trevor Kempner
I don't know what average life expectancy for men in the States is these days, but, you know, maybe it's around 70 anyway. No, but this is all to say, you know, to to in answer to your original prompt, you know, being a dad is something that it's become really important to me. And, you know, for reasons we'll probably get into, it's sort of happened initially by default, but it is something that is, you know, I don't know if it's necessarily healthy to define my life's goals in terms of my children.

00;13;16;09 - 00;13;48;19
Trevor Kempner
You know, perhaps that's a lot of unfair expectation on them, but it's become something that is integral to myself, my expectations for myself, what I hope to achieve, you know, it is there's so much that goes into it. But, you know, if I were to look at my life's accomplishments on my deathbed, which is the, you know, thought exercise that I do often, yeah, you know, what am I going to care more about having healthy, happy, well-adjusted children, ideally at that point, which happy, well-adjusted children of their own?

00;13;48;24 - 00;14;20;08
Trevor Kempner
Yeah. Or, you know, like that one trial that I'm thinking about, you know, and obviously I work hard, especially in trial, etc. but at the end of the day, you know, it's a question of balancing those priorities. And, you know, there are people who throw everything into their career. And I just realize I'm the kind of person where, like, you know, if I am the kind of person where I give everything to to my career and don't have anything left over for the rest of my life, I will be deeply unhappy.

00;14;20;11 - 00;14;22;16
Trevor Kempner
Yeah.

00;14;22;18 - 00;14;36;19
Paul Sullivan
I don't know. I want to back up on one thing here in. You talk about, you know, there's a lot of research that says, you know, you know, women are good or bad as girls have some sort of vision as to what they may be like in the future. As, as a mom, as a working mom and I.

00;14;36;20 - 00;15;05;01
Paul Sullivan
But the very few men, go through the same thought process as is teens. And I know you're very close to your parents. You know, I know your dad worked in finance. Your mom was an attorney. When you think about, you know, them as role models. But more importantly, when you think about, you know, when you were young and you had this great relationship with your parents, did you ever think, like, boy, you know, when I'm older, I want to try to be this type of of dad?

00;15;05;01 - 00;15;15;27
Paul Sullivan
Or is it more what you said before you're on that hamster wheel and like, let let's try to, you know, keep going forward and we'll, we'll, we'll deal with with fatherhood, you know, when or if it comes along.

00;15;16;00 - 00;15;23;01
Trevor Kempner
Yeah. I mean I, I did have those kinds of thoughts, but it's hard to sort of parse out exactly when they started.

00;15;23;04 - 00;15;29;16
Paul Sullivan
Well, you probably had an advantage. You probably played a dad in some play when you were young until you could figure it out. You know?

00;15;29;18 - 00;15;35;20
Trevor Kempner
You know what I did see? Yeah. But it was not one that I would want to emulate. It was a play that no one's probably.

00;15;35;20 - 00;15;38;06
Paul Sullivan
Heard of was like a Edward Albee play or something like.

00;15;38;07 - 00;15;52;05
Trevor Kempner
No, no, not quite that bad. It was called The Heiress, and it was my senior year of high school, and I had an 18 year old. I was supposed to play this like, you know, cantankerous 70 year old guy who, like, didn't approve of the guy his daughter was marrying. And I was like, oh, no, I'm 18 years old.

00;15;52;05 - 00;16;13;19
Trevor Kempner
Like, I don't know anything about any of this. No. So yes. But, you know, I don't think that that was necessarily part of the thought process because the character, I don't think that he had ever thought about anything like that. You know, I grew up, you know, very, very lucky in a million different ways. But I grew up with a nanny because both my parents worked.

00;16;13;19 - 00;16;35;06
Trevor Kempner
I mean, my, my dad worked in finance. My mom worked at a law firm until she retired when I was, like, 12 or 13, you know, certainly long enough for me to remember a lot of nights where, you know, neither my parents was home for bedtime. Yeah. But, you know, the line in the sand they drew, you know, with these two incredibly demanding career households.

00;16;35;08 - 00;17;04;15
Trevor Kempner
You know, I feel like a lot of people do have this sort of lines. They draw lines of demarcation, which even in the 80s and 90s, when I was growing up, were sort of the infancy of respect for, home life. Yeah. At the workplace. Yeah. You know, they were really good about weekends. And, you know, a lot of the kids I grew up with had access on the weekend, you know, I'd see them not infrequently, but my parents were, you know, unless there was something, you know, maybe once or twice a year or really, so.

00;17;04;17 - 00;17;04;29
Paul Sullivan
Many of them.

00;17;04;29 - 00;17;23;23
Trevor Kempner
Were working on a weekend, etc. it was rare that we had our nanny over the weekend and, as a result, like, you know, and because all of us played travel sports, lots of time in the car with each parent, and that's where, you know, I didn't realize it at the time, but that's where a lot of the bonding and the, the big conversations happened.

00;17;23;26 - 00;17;43;27
Trevor Kempner
And I assume my parents planned it that way, or it was, you know, a happy, incidental benefit of these long car rides to who knows where along the East coast for me to play hockey. But, you know, it's it did influence me in the sense that, you know, no matter how busy I am with work as a parent.

00;17;43;29 - 00;18;07;10
Trevor Kempner
My parents were incredibly busy, too, and they made sacrifices to make sure that there were sort of these boundaries. And inside those boundaries, it was quality time with us. And, you know, that is sort of one of the main through lines I draw from, from the way I was raised and, you know, my values and, you know, all of that.

00;18;07;12 - 00;18;28;04
Trevor Kempner
Is that no matter who identifies as the lead parent, no matter who's busier at work, etc., you know, for the health of your children and yourself, you still always got to draw those lines and enforce them and say, this is important. I'm going to spend time with my kids. Yeah. And to their credit, as busy as work ever got, they both did that.

00;18;28;06 - 00;18;46;21
Trevor Kempner
You know, I'm sure that they made sacrifices. You know, as I'm seeing now as a parent, I'm sure that the first thing to go was their own social life. But, you know, I think that they are living the dream and that they have three happy, well-adjusted, adult kids. Yeah, two of whom have kids of their own.

00;18;46;24 - 00;18;52;20
Trevor Kempner
Yeah. And are starting to have these sort of deeper existential conversations about who they are as parents.

00;18;52;23 - 00;19;25;18
Paul Sullivan
But that's also it's like you, your parents are able to have, you know, careers are able to do things that they want to do. They will be fulfilled professionally, but yet they still made the time to be there for you. And you're absolutely right. I mean, there's something has to give, like, you know, you're not going to, you know, also do that and then be a, you know, master level swimmer or right, you know, ski champion, you know, on the weekends then something has to give, you know, you talked about with you imagine that this was sort of a, a natural, you know, evolution of you becoming a leader and that

00;19;25;18 - 00;19;47;27
Paul Sullivan
that's, you know, it's a pretty common story, you know, we hear, but but I know both of you, and I know you're sort of intentional people. So as it was evolving naturally, was there a moment where you had, you know, a conversation, a conversation around, you know, career around kids, around, you know, how things were going to be, you know, sort it out.

00;19;48;00 - 00;20;08;07
Trevor Kempner
Yeah. We definitely talked a lot about that. You know, I think a lot of those decisions were made, as I'm sure it's common for a lot of couples just by dint of who we are as people. You know, what our strengths are, what our weaknesses are, etc.. And Meghan, to her credit, is pretty upfront about the fact that she is not as organized as I am.

00;20;08;14 - 00;20;32;06
Trevor Kempner
And as, you know, on top of daily tasks as I'm she, I mean, she's great about it in her professional life, but she kind of, you know, I think she'd be the first to admit that when it comes to having the need or capacity to follow through on personal tasks that aren't, you know, absolutely necessary to get done today.

00;20;32;09 - 00;20;51;07
Trevor Kempner
You know, she has a she has a little trouble keeping track of that kind of stuff. And again, every everyone does, but I tend to be a little better at that kind of stuff. So naturally, I started out, and we knew this going in as kind of the person who made doctor's appointments, who, you know, made sure that, you know, the kids had everything they needed.

00;20;51;07 - 00;21;07;01
Trevor Kempner
Every week I do all the grocery shopping. I do, the interminable Amazon shopping of diapers and wipes and October and all this other sort of stuff because, I don't know, mentally, it's just easier for me to keep track of that kind of stuff. And do it.

00;21;07;04 - 00;21;11;11
Paul Sullivan
I had never heard of before, before I had kids, and now I can't imagine a life without it.

00;21;11;13 - 00;21;14;24
Trevor Kempner
Same myself as well. Like, I just put it all over, like, all over.

00;21;14;24 - 00;21;16;10
Paul Sullivan
In and out. It's like, yeah, well.

00;21;16;10 - 00;21;32;15
Trevor Kempner
Before bed, like, you know, you got to put it all over your face so your lips don't trap and stuff. I mean, mine gives me crap. She just puts like, a daily little, you know, swab on her lips a little bit like this. And then I just, like, take a huge scoop, like I'm, you know, wiping a but just put it all over my face.

00;21;32;17 - 00;21;51;10
Trevor Kempner
Anyway, but, you know, as it really sort of the, the percentage division of parenting tasks really kicked into high gear at the beginning of Covid, because at the time I was in, our misdemeanor domestic violence unit and, you know, it is a and.

00;21;51;11 - 00;21;58;27
Paul Sullivan
When you were at the DA's office, when, when your son was born or were you still. Yeah. So you spent the entire time you've been apparent you've been at. Yes.

00;21;58;29 - 00;22;16;17
Trevor Kempner
And, you know, about eight months after our first son was born, it's when Covid hit and I was in misdemeanor domestic violence at the time, which, as you know, certainly anyone in my DA's office, I assume it's similar to a lot of other DA's office as because of the kinds of cases they are, they tend to go to trial at a higher rate than other cases.

00;22;16;20 - 00;22;24;08
Paul Sullivan
But did they also in I mean, the statistics where the domestic violence spiked during the initial. So were you even busier with.

00;22;24;10 - 00;22;43;03
Trevor Kempner
Yeah, I mean, that was something that we certainly had to deal with. But you know, we couldn't every every DA's office and every court in the country was dealing with this to some extent. But we couldn't do anything with the ones that needed to be tried because trials weren't happening. But, you know, and it depended on the jurisdiction as to when juries were getting impaneled again.

00;22;43;06 - 00;23;17;26
Trevor Kempner
But, you know, there was like a period of six months to a year where really nothing was getting tried and a couple of false starts where, you know, like they'd try a couple and then a juror would get Covid and they'd be like, shit, mistrial. Let's try again. Right. Stuff like that. So, you know, as a result, I and because we, we sent our nanny home for the first 3 or 4 months, we were luckier than most Covid parents and that I had a job where I could really I had a lot more flexibility than I typically would have in that role.

00;23;17;29 - 00;23;34;08
Trevor Kempner
Given the lack of trials going out, you know, still doing charging. I was still managing, you know, what's called a calendar day, where you check in with all your cases, you know, a couple times a week, once a week. But, it was a lot less than would have been typically the case because there weren't trials happening.

00;23;34;11 - 00;23;35;16
Trevor Kempner

00;23;35;18 - 00;23;42;03
Paul Sullivan
So the typical day before the typical day, you would have been going to your office, you would have been going home for sure. The court courtroom. You would have bed. Yeah.

00;23;42;03 - 00;24;01;23
Trevor Kempner
You had like one of the misdemeanor domestic violence attorneys. I knew, you know, our famous for just constantly being in trial, you know, like they they have to continue trials regularly because they're already in trial and they're some of the few kinds of prosecutors who get to do that legally. So, you know, it, it I expected it.

00;24;01;23 - 00;24;23;04
Trevor Kempner
I was looking forward to it. It's a great place to learn. And then Covid hit. So, you know, during that period, it it sort of naturally made sense because Megan's schedule didn't really adjust at all. Like her move, her meetings that are constant just immediately moved all online. And so she was basically booked again, as if she were fully at the office all day, just had very little flexibility.

00;24;23;06 - 00;24;49;22
Trevor Kempner
And as a result, I was sort of stuck with this, you know, eight month old, where during any given day, I, you know, I became Lee parent. I was like, okay, sure. Like we're going to the park with our masks on, etc., etc.. And it that's when it sort of kicked into high gear and, you know, Megan's work demands have gotten, you know, it ebbs and flows, but they've been significant really, all throughout Covid.

00;24;49;25 - 00;25;10;08
Trevor Kempner
And, you know, recently, especially since, after she came back from leave with our second kid, Pierce, who was born about a year ago. He had just been in constant high gear. And luckily, I'm now, you know, there was a year, a year and a half where I was, in general, felonies where I did not have a flexible schedule, where I was in court all the time.

00;25;10;11 - 00;25;12;07
Trevor Kempner
Courtrooms were sort of opening back up.

00;25;12;13 - 00;25;16;19
Paul Sullivan
Right for the list. Or what does that mean when you were in general, felonies? What did that.

00;25;16;21 - 00;25;42;26
Trevor Kempner
So handling any felony that isn't like, you know, specialized, sort of, you know, so not sex crimes, not homicide, not domestic violence, not what I do now, which is, you know, white collar crime, fraud, embezzlement, etc., licensing stuff. You know, so typical, you know, drugs, guns, assault, battery, etc.. Okay. That is known as, you know, one of the more demanding units in any DA's office because, you know.

00;25;42;28 - 00;25;44;08
Paul Sullivan
Because it's constant, those things.

00;25;44;08 - 00;26;08;18
Trevor Kempner
It's constant. Yeah. I mean, there's so many deadlines, you know, constitutional last days before which you have to have a hearing before you have to do trial, etc., like even during Covid when those rules were a little bit flexible, because they had to be, it was constant. And but, you know, after I went out on leave, for our second kid, Pierce, while I'm still in GF general felonies.

00;26;08;18 - 00;26;28;28
Trevor Kempner
And then I came while I was on leave, I actually got moved into what's called special prosecutions, which is white collar crime, which, it is, you know, objectively less time in court, but it's also really nice to be able to round out my experience. You know, it's some investigations, some charges that most units don't typically see, learning a ton.

00;26;29;00 - 00;26;33;07
Trevor Kempner
So so that's been great. But you know, that like.

00;26;33;07 - 00;26;56;25
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. Because in a push back of I'm totally wrong here, but but I have a feeling like if you're in sort of this white collar crime division that there isn't the pressure to go to trial day after day, week after week, it's more something that you're working on, building a case over, a period of time. Okay. And so therefore, if that, I don't know, day that you're working, from home.

00;26;57;03 - 00;27;07;24
Paul Sullivan
If at 1:00, you need to do something with your son, chances are, if you don't have a call or something like that, you can go do that thing at 1:00. And then whatever you need to do with the case, you could do that at 9:00 at night, and it's fine.

00;27;07;25 - 00;27;35;27
Trevor Kempner
Exactly right. Exactly that a lot of our our deadlines and our workflow depends less on whether or not court is open. Right. You know, and more on, you know, oh, Will, I have these, like, thousand pages of a search warrant return that I need to review. That's just bank records. And, you know, it's it would take any reasonable person, at least, you know, a week to find the, you know, 6 or 7 hours needed to really parse through that, take notes, etc., what's relevant, etc..

00;27;35;29 - 00;28;02;27
Trevor Kempner
And yeah, like make it as a doctor's appointment. So I'll just do that after they go to bed. And that's, you know, it feels a little bit more like that schedule where the court determines a lot less of when I work. And as a result, we've just sort of kept the, the division where it just sort of worked naturally for us, where the person who was more sort of logistically inclined happens to be the person with a little more flexibility, at work.

00;28;02;29 - 00;28;42;26
Trevor Kempner
And it just kind of lucked out that way where, you know, it just sort of naturally made sense for me to be lead at. I mean, it's a it's a title that Meghan definitely does not dispute, as we've seen. But yeah, it's been, you know, part of it happened by default. But then once I, you know, obviously realized what was happening and had an inkling that it would happen just again by dint of what her, you know, relative, strengths are, I started to really enjoy it and really lean into identifying myself that way because, you know, kind of to, to, what you were talking about earlier, I

00;28;42;26 - 00;29;15;20
Trevor Kempner
do think there's sort of a generational, divide between, perceptions of lead dads. But in, you know, a lot of, you know, families like Megan and mine with, you know, two careers, graduate degrees, etc., in our experience, sometimes the default still does tend to be that the mother ends up being the caretaker, ends up being the sort of lead parent scheduling the playdate, scheduling, doctor's appointments, scheduling, whatever.

00;29;15;20 - 00;29;29;27
Trevor Kempner
I mean, it's it's obviously part of the larger national conversation on, on home roles. But it's something that I become very proud of, you know, unabashedly being a dad where, you know. Yeah.

00;29;30;00 - 00;29;57;00
Paul Sullivan
Well, that segue into what I talk about, because we've been talking about your, home. We were talking about work, but what is it like, you know, for you as a dad when you're, sort of like in the wild when you're out there with, you know, the with the schools, with with the playdate, with, you know, other friends of yours who are men with, with, you know, the friends of yours who are, who are women, who are moms and and you have to, you know, what is it like?

00;29;57;00 - 00;30;17;13
Paul Sullivan
You know, in San Francisco in, you know, in 2022 when you're, you know, having these conversations and trying to sort of manage not the, not the caring, not the, the but really the logistics of being a dad, you know, planning school, doctor's appointments. How does that go for you?

00;30;17;16 - 00;30;21;25
Trevor Kempner
I mean, by and by and large. Fine. I mean, I don't feel, you know, the way that.

00;30;21;25 - 00;30;24;10
Paul Sullivan
That does it. Does a pediatrician call you or call Megan?

00;30;24;11 - 00;30;47;15
Trevor Kempner
That's the the calls me because I listed myself as the first contact. But, you know, that's like just a I don't think they, they, you know, have, the option, they just go down the list. But, you know, I think in a, in a city like San Francisco, it is I rarely get comments like, oh, like, dad's here, you know, like when when it's clear they were expecting mom to be there.

00;30;47;17 - 00;31;15;12
Trevor Kempner
That's somewhat rare. Probably only happen a couple times if that. It's sort of more like. Like by inference, that, you know, things are just structured in a way, you know, I will say we, we love our preschool, but currently the like there is a mom's WhatsApp group and a dad's WhatsApp group, and the mom's WhatsApp group is much more active.

00;31;15;15 - 00;31;36;18
Trevor Kempner
The dad's WhatsApp group is like, you know, fires up every couple months saying we should get beers together. It's like, yeah, awesome, let's do that. And the, the mom's one is pretty constant. Like, we're planning this afterschool activity. We're like, who wants to have a playdate? We're going here, who wants to come, etc.. And because Megan is on that one, you know, we we, we kind of miss out on some of those opportunities.

00;31;36;20 - 00;31;37;11
Trevor Kempner
She's busy.

00;31;37;18 - 00;31;58;01
Paul Sullivan
One of the issues here is this sort of control over, information. You know, where I am on the East Coast, there are these Facebook groups that are Facebook mom groups from the town, and 80% of what is happening there, 75, 80% of it is really crucial information. You have to be a parent, whether you're a mom or dad.

00;31;58;05 - 00;32;16;24
Paul Sullivan
And then 20, 25% of it is social, which I don't think, you know, dads would, would jump in on anyway. But same thing it sounds with this, this WhatsApp group, if the dads are like, hey, anybody want to go get a beer or, you know, Saturday at the park, that's fine. But have you been able to get on to that, you know, WhatsApp group as is the lead dad or is it, you know.

00;32;16;26 - 00;32;42;04
Trevor Kempner
Because it would just feel awkward. But, you know, Megan passes along the information. We do things about it when we can reach out independently. There's just like an added layer of work, that, you know, I wish there weren't, but, you know, it kind of like, at least in my generation, I feel like there is still the implication or the expectation that mothers are lead parents, at least in our circles.

00;32;42;05 - 00;33;16;11
Trevor Kempner
But, you know, were I out at beers with these dads and said something like, oh, yeah, I'm the lead parent because I have a more flexible schedule there, I think there would be zero judgment, you know? So it's sort of one step at a time generationally where like, there's there isn't that judgment for being a dad, but like there's sort of the like, you know, if if this were a generation ago and there were some sort of information channel where like it went to a dad who was working full time and he just ignored it, you know, people would be like, oh, yeah, he's just busy.

00;33;16;11 - 00;33;46;11
Trevor Kempner
It's fine. Why don't we reach out to the mom? But in couples where there's a dad, there sort of. Isn't that expectation of, you know, like, oh, mom didn't get to this because she was busy. She's a really demanding job. She's the primary breadwinner for the family. You know, it just still doesn't always occur to people that, like, mom, isn't the first point of contact for social things, for logistics, for whatever.

00;33;46;14 - 00;33;53;14
Trevor Kempner
There is still sort of that extra push to be like, hey, can these, can these come to me? Can you email me, please? Right.

00;33;53;16 - 00;34;11;05
Paul Sullivan
Because which problem is like, you know, the mom or Megan in this case, but moms still have to bear the mental load like she has to remember. Exactly. Let me forward this, to Trevor. Right? Who is, completely capable of organizing whatever it is is being asked. But if he doesn't remember that, then it doesn't.

00;34;11;08 - 00;34;22;19
Trevor Kempner
It doesn't have. Right. Well, and she'll get it when she's in a meeting and she'll maybe she'll make a mental note to be like, yeah, yeah, I got to forward this to Trevor, but like, I mean, this meeting and then she has another meeting and then, you know, it's the kind of stuff where it's certainly not her fault.

00;34;22;21 - 00;34;46;09
Trevor Kempner
She's super busy. And again, if this were a generation ago and, and that were a dad and nobody would think anything of it. So, I mean, one of the things Megan talked about this a lot, obviously, we both have obviously strong feelings on it, but, you know, it is not questioned in the current, you know, conversation marketplace of ideas that we need to empower women in the workplace.

00;34;46;11 - 00;35;12;29
Trevor Kempner
And, you know, I fully agree with that. It should not be questioned. You know, we obviously need to do that for a million reasons that we don't need to get into. But, you know, I've always thought that a necessary but under discussed corollary to that is that we need to empower men in the home space. And I don't mean that in the sense of, you know, decision making or power in the traditional sense.

00;35;13;02 - 00;35;36;20
Trevor Kempner
You know, I think something that is also under discussed in the workplace and at home is, you know, equality of expectation that, you know, you wouldn't expect anything less from someone in the workplace just because she was a woman. And if you did, that would be wildly sexist and you'd be rightly, you know, shamed or reprimanded as a result of you expected less of someone simply because she was a woman in the workplace.

00;35;36;23 - 00;35;42;00
Trevor Kempner
But it's still completely fine and acceptable to expect less of men in the work than in the home space.

00;35;42;01 - 00;36;00;06
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, it looks like very little in anything. Exactly. But there's also been great research that, at least pre-pandemic, you know, men who sort of put their hand up at work to say, you know, I want to be, a full father, you know, draw a line between sort of being an event parent. An event parent is my job as a soccer game.

00;36;00;06 - 00;36;02;01
Paul Sullivan
My child is graduating from kindergarten.

00;36;02;04 - 00;36;02;20
Trevor Kempner
Yep.

00;36;02;23 - 00;36;22;21
Paul Sullivan
Nobody questions that. But to be a full on parent and say, you know, at at 2:00, I've got to go. You know, pick up my child at this. Historically, men have been penalized for it, but I, I agree with you. I mean, some of the company dads is pushing for that. You know, one man's you know, or one woman to lead dad, at a different firm.

00;36;22;21 - 00;36;43;21
Paul Sullivan
Is that other person, you know, working mom and and how do we sort of balances out? Because if men are able to be lead that at work, they're normalizing the role, but they're also starting to reduce the burden on women to be the working mom who has to, you know, leave early and do this or get that WhatsApp message and, and move it along.

00;36;43;23 - 00;37;07;08
Paul Sullivan
Do you think, though, and you know, you can punt on this, but I don't want to put you in spot if you don't answer. But I think about you being at the district attorney's office, do you think that is a different environment than if you were working in, in corporate law and your ability to be a lead or has corporate law, you know, started to, to, to, you know, move forward, have today's partners, you know, learn lessons from from the partner.

00;37;07;09 - 00;37;18;27
Paul Sullivan
The guys were partners when they were coming up. And it's more I'm just wondering if you think that the defender's office is more open to to, you know, the dads and I guess working parents in general.

00;37;18;29 - 00;37;52;01
Trevor Kempner
It's interesting. I would say it's a mixed bag. And, you know, the DA's office that I work at, I'm extremely, extremely lucky to work where I work because, you know, because we're a San Francisco city employees and because there's sort of an expectation at the office of this, you know, we my office has always had comparatively generous, you know, by American standards and not by, European standards, but comparatively generously, policies, you know, sick leave, parental leave, things like that.

00;37;52;01 - 00;38;27;20
Trevor Kempner
So when I had both kids, I actually did feel like I got a really solid amount of paternity leave and was unbelievably appreciative for that. You know, because even friends that worked at, you know, tech firms or consulting places or law firms didn't get as much. But I will also say that, you know, law firms are an interesting example, because in a way, they're sort of like DA's offices in that there are times and contexts where the nature of the work itself makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to be a lead parent.

00;38;27;23 - 00;39;07;22
Trevor Kempner
Where, you know, in the criminal context of the DA's office, you know, you're dealing with weighty constitutional considerations, like people's last days for a kind of hearing or a trial or, you know, the schedule is largely determined by that. Yeah. That, you know, necessity of getting things done by a certain time. Whereas at law firms, there is sort of the, the norm of constant availability, at law firms where, you know, you have a lot of law firms who even years ago, the firm I worked at was very well known as being relatively flexible with regard to stuff like that, where, you know, if you needed to work from home more

00;39;07;22 - 00;39;41;08
Trevor Kempner
often than someone else, you know, nobody really cared, you know, did you get your work done? Yeah. But by the same token, you know, if you got an email on a Friday night from a partner saying, you know, I need this done by Monday, you do it. That is something that you know is certainly going to be a discussed a lot, moving forward, you know, when you have two parents with jobs like that where, you know, it becomes more and more common for two parents to have incredibly demanding jobs like that?

00;39;41;10 - 00;40;00;05
Trevor Kempner
That's when it gets really, really tough. I mean, and there have been times when I was in other units or whatever where like there's just that pressure point where it's like, I have this hearing tomorrow. Like I literally cannot go to this doctor's appointment. And the other parent saying, I have this meeting, right? And you're like, shit, I guess we're just going to reschedule the doctor's appointment.

00;40;00;06 - 00;40;27;10
Trevor Kempner
It is what it is, you know, it's stuff like that. But, you know, I, I do see, you know, like a lot of, Businesses or companies that employ, you know, highly educated people, you know, there is this sort of progressive push to and there certainly is in law firms as well to be more accommodating, family life.

00;40;27;12 - 00;40;50;20
Trevor Kempner
But it does pretty regularly run into the realities of how demanding those jobs tend to be. And, you know, I'm pretty far removed from law firm life these days. You know, most of my friends and even even the ones who haven't gone into government have gone in-house somewhere at this point. But, you know, Covid certainly changed a lot of that.

00;40;50;20 - 00;40;57;22
Trevor Kempner
But realistically, you know, there's just a mountain of work and a lot of these places that needs to get done at some point.

00;40;57;24 - 00;41;02;03
Paul Sullivan
Right. You could be working all the time, every day, all the time, and still not get everything done.

00;41;02;05 - 00;41;25;26
Trevor Kempner
Yeah, exactly. And you know, I think that you I feel like we've had a conversation about this previously, but, you know, in some polling, informal or formal polling that that company of dads has done when you have, women who are the primary breadwinner, particularly women, it's sort of the pinnacle of success of their chosen career, like law firm partners, their partners tend to be lead parents.

00;41;26;02 - 00;41;59;22
Paul Sullivan
I mean, it's a bit of a convenient story, but I don't know. I know a lot of senior female partners at law firms, probably because I live outside of New York City. I don't know, but every single one of them, their husband is a dad, and they, they work that. They have different types of jobs, but they it's the difference, as you described it with you and Megan, early on between, a schedule with, no flexibility or a schedule where you don't own your time versus the opposite, a schedule where you can say, okay, I'm going to block out, you know, this moment to do this, you're still working, but you

00;41;59;23 - 00;42;16;11
Paul Sullivan
have that, you know, ability to shift some things around. I mean, that's how I did it at the New York Times for so long. Like, had I been, a reporter and not a columnist, it would have been a lot different because the reporter's analogous to to working at a law firm where somebody could tell you on Friday night, hey, look, this just happened.

00;42;16;16 - 00;42;29;05
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, you got to do it, and you do it. You don't have a choice. And that was earlier in my career. But once you're a columnist, you know it has its own pluses and minuses. But you know that every week you have to produce this or you have to produce a book and that. And so it gives you that, you know.

00;42;29;07 - 00;42;32;02
Trevor Kempner
Control over time. Yeah.

00;42;32;05 - 00;43;04;25
Paul Sullivan
You know, this been great. But, you know, one question to kind of wrap it up here, I want to ask you, when you talk to your, your friends, you know, you're 35, your friends, your mid 30s, you know, where are they are are they optimistic. You know, how do they see the, you know, the progress coming particularly after, you know, those of us who were fortunate enough to be knowledge workers, those are the ones who were fortunate enough to have been able to work from home, you know, how has it has it changed the way, you know, they've they've thought about, you know, work and relationships and parenting this, this kind of, you know, two

00;43;04;25 - 00;43;12;25
Paul Sullivan
year, you know, interregnum where you're all you know, into your career, but not 30 years into your year.

00;43;12;29 - 00;43;42;16
Trevor Kempner
Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think. If anything, I would I think that that Covid and the changes that it has brought, probably just accelerated trends like this that, you know, it was going to happen anyway that, you know, my generation, particularly, you know, as you mentioned, knowledge workers. I know that it's sort of been a political hot topic that knowledge workers and the companies they work for tend to be on the forefront of changes like this.

00;43;42;19 - 00;44;19;03
Trevor Kempner
Sure. And, you know, you have policies that we're incredibly lucky to have policies that allow for us to define these roles. You know, if you look at Google, if you look at Facebook, if you were even a lot of the banks and law firms these days have pretty generous lead policies by American standards, you know, I mean, if you look in McKinsey or Bain or, you know, they have pretty generous maternity and paternity leave policies because that has sort of become a requirement to attract and retain the highest level talent in my generation in a way that it wasn't a generation or two ago.

00;44;19;05 - 00;44;26;23
Trevor Kempner
You know, that's sort of become a baseline requirement. Yeah. And if it isn't at a place that'll go, great, I'll just go, you know, if.

00;44;26;25 - 00;44;27;18
Paul Sullivan
I don't, somebody else will.

00;44;27;20 - 00;44;43;19
Trevor Kempner
Actual policies. But, you know, if McKinsey doesn't have great leave, if I could, I'll just go to Bain. I'll go to BCG. They leave. Great. Yeah. And law firms have you know, it's been a big topic of conversation that law firms have sort of sort of an, an arms race in that sense, in the same way that they often do with regard to like comp and bonuses and things like that.

00;44;43;19 - 00;45;08;16
Trevor Kempner
But and certainly tech companies as well. But I think that, you know, the flexibility that Covid, required at the beginning, really opened up to a lot of people that, you know, yeah, there are downsides to this. You know, like, obviously at the beginning when everyone was trying to do their job with kids running around, it was like that was a disaster.

00;45;08;19 - 00;45;50;28
Trevor Kempner
But, a lot of the flexibility is nice that like, people really, really like hybrid work. And that allows even parents who don't consider themselves lead parents who are like, yeah, my job is super demanding. I'm really lucky to have a partner who kind of takes the the, you know, bigger load at home, etc.. You know, they have been more able to lean into parenting, you know, even in little moment to moment things, you know, I mean, there have been a lot of times when Megan is working at home and has a five minute break between meetings and goes out and plays with the boys for five minutes and then goes back to

00;45;50;28 - 00;46;00;06
Trevor Kempner
work, and that can make such a huge difference, to us mentally. But also, you know, to the kids, the sort of notion that, hey, mom's here or she doesn't.

00;46;00;06 - 00;46;04;22
Paul Sullivan
Have this sort of, you know, ten hour block in the day in which doesn't see them. Yeah.

00;46;04;25 - 00;46;44;07
Trevor Kempner
Exactly. You know, I think I think it's great. I mean, I think that it has sort of normalized, more frequent involvement, in, you know, kids lives, even for people that are primary breadwinners, are, you know, typically would be the kinds of people who were at the office from 7:30 a.m. to 8 p.m. you know, a lot of the time they're home instead, which means instead of seeing the parent zero, right, and knowing that they're completely unavailable, maybe they'll pick up their phone, etc. they're you can hear them in their meeting, you know, like it's really nice for everybody.

00;46;44;07 - 00;47;02;24
Trevor Kempner
I think, I don't know what that means moving forward, but I also think that a lot of people in the knowledge economy have gotten used to it, to the point where they're like, you know, like, I schedule my doctor's appointments around this kid or my kid's doctor's appointments around this, you know, I have my 1 or 2 remote days a week.

00;47;02;24 - 00;47;07;21
Trevor Kempner
And yeah, I kind of can't live without them now. They're like kind of an integral part of.

00;47;07;24 - 00;47;10;18
Paul Sullivan
How quickly is remarkable how quickly this this changed in.

00;47;10;25 - 00;47;11;13
Trevor Kempner
Exactly.

00;47;11;17 - 00;47;12;22
Paul Sullivan
Two years. Yeah.

00;47;12;24 - 00;47;39;28
Trevor Kempner
Exactly. So yeah, I mean, it is it's definitely changed a lot. But you know, there will always be a a total amount of acts of work, logistical whatever in any couple and a percentage breakdown in every couple. And, you know, I don't know that Covid necessarily changed that, but it did change a lot of things at the margins that just really increase people's quality of life.

00;47;40;00 - 00;47;53;22
Trevor Kempner
You know, it's less of a big deal to go to a doctor's appointment for an hour. It's less of a big deal to pick your kids up at something and say, you know, I'm blocking out these two hours. I got to go pick my kid up. I'll be right back. You know, you don't have the stickiness of a commute, etc..

00;47;53;22 - 00;47;54;16
Trevor Kempner
I've been able to be.

00;47;54;16 - 00;47;56;15
Paul Sullivan
More honest about it and honest about.

00;47;56;15 - 00;48;14;16
Trevor Kempner
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I think that's a lot of what, you know, this whole conversation comes down to, which is, you know, honesty, which is that, you know, a lot of times it is that ad where it makes a lot more sense for the dad to do more of the parenting than the mom or, you know, one parent versus another parent.

00;48;14;16 - 00;48;36;14
Trevor Kempner
You know, every couple defines it differently. But, you know, it's it's definitely moving, I think, in the right direction. I think Covid again, accelerated that, that as you said, I think they were more honest about this sort of stuff. Now.

00;48;36;16 - 00;48;54;27
Trevor Kempner
Because we kind of have to be, but, I think by and large, it will have done a great service to the conversation more generally that people are just much more honest about the needs of parenting and what that entails and what it requires, such that, you know, conversations like this are, I think, happening more and more often.

00;48;55;01 - 00;49;01;29
Paul Sullivan
They're more normal. We're going to end it there. Trevor Kempner, thank you for being my guest today on the Company Dads podcast.

00;49;02;02 - 00;49;02;22
Trevor Kempner
Thank you for having me.