EP65: How Parents Can Maximize Work and Home

Interview with Sara Madera / Relationship Coach, Parent Thinker

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

What comes first: Gender equity at work or at home? In this week's podcast, I discuss the issue with Sara Madera, founder of Plan Creatively, which works with working moms to manage the demands of career and parenthood. We talk about the role Lead Dads play in this at home and in the workplace. Listen to what we agreed and disagreed on.

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Transcript

00;00;05;22 - 00;00;29;02
Paul Sullivan
Welcome to the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, sublime, strange and silly aspects of being a dad in a world where men often feel they have to hide. Or at least not talk about their parenting role. One thing I know from personal experience is being a dad is not a traditional role for men. Whether you work full time, part time, or do with all your time for your family, parenting is so often left to mothers or paid caregivers.

00;00;29;05 - 00;00;57;03
Paul Sullivan
But here at the Company of Dads, our goal is to shake all that off and create a community for fathers who are only dads. Welcome other dads in who want to learn more for them, and of course, support working moms. I'm your host, Paul Sullivan, and today my guest is Sara Madera . She's the founder of Plan Creatively, which works with working moms to manage the demands of career and parenthood is something that is only gotten more difficult.

00;00;57;06 - 00;01;16;16
Paul Sullivan
During the pandemic. And now in in what some people are calling the next normal and super relevant that we're talking to Sarah at the beginning of the year here. After working in Asia for years, she now lives in the New York area with her husband and two children, ages six and eight. Sarah, welcome to the Company of Dads podcast.

00;01;16;19 - 00;01;18;17
Sara Madera
Thank you so much for having me.

00;01;18;19 - 00;01;38;04
Paul Sullivan
We're going to do something different with this, podcast today. We're going to talk about, I guess, you know, in our respective worlds of, of, of working dads who are super involved with their kids and working moms trying to, you know, make time for their career and their family. We're going to have the, the equivalent of the chicken or the egg.

00;01;38;09 - 00;01;50;02
Paul Sullivan
And that is what comes first. Gender equity at work or at home. So, Sarah, what's your take on this? You go first.

00;01;50;04 - 00;02;08;12
Sara Madera
So I know that there have been reports and studies by I won't say men, but yes, by men, that they've interviewed women who have said that gender equity at home comes first and that doesn't feel right to me, and it doesn't feel right to me or to my colleagues or to my clients that I speak to who are all working moms.

00;02;08;14 - 00;02;31;00
Sara Madera
And we feel that gender equity at work has come has has already advanced, and comes first before gender equity at home. Even though I am so grateful for you and the work that you're doing to expose, you know, men to this model of being leaders and men who are doing this and showing us. Well, I still think that gender equity at work comes first.

00;02;31;02 - 00;02;32;01
Sara Madera
What do you think?

00;02;32;04 - 00;02;48;28
Paul Sullivan
Well, I'd say that, yeah. I mean, in my own life, I think probably, my, my wife race an asset management, which is a male dominated field. I think gender equity probably came a little more quickly at home, because while I was at the New York Times, I sort of put my hand up to be, you know, the lead dad.

00;02;49;01 - 00;03;15;02
Paul Sullivan
But one of the things we talk about the company of dads, and, you know, the lead dad, is that go to parent whether he works full time, part time, or devotes all of his time to his children. So I think part of it is, you know, we see it. This is going to be great answer, but we see it working in in conjunction because, you know, if men are allowed to be, you know, their full self at work, meaning being a real parent, not in event parent.

00;03;15;02 - 00;03;39;14
Paul Sullivan
Anybody can be an event parent these days. If your kids graduated from something, you can leave early. Take it as a sporting event. You can leave early as not being a real parent. That helps a man realize his potential at work. But it also, we hope, reduces some of the burden on working moms at work to feel like they have to be the go to parent if a kid is sick or they have to be a go to parent, in, you know, the snowstorm.

00;03;39;14 - 00;04;00;15
Paul Sullivan
And ideally, we hope that that is going to help management see that, you know, guess what? You have a whole yeah, a whole lot more working parents at your company than you thought. And they're all making this work and they're making it work in the next normal. But I'd ask you, you why do you, you know, when you look at it, what are some of the markers that it is gone better gender.

00;04;00;17 - 00;04;04;11
Paul Sullivan
Equality is gone. Better at work than at home.

00;04;04;13 - 00;04;23;25
Sara Madera
Well, I think there are a few things, but like most recently, because of the pandemic, I feel like we are seeing lots of focus on women at work right now. Right. In terms of McKinsey studies, the Deloitte studies that are showcasing the needs of female workers, you know, at the forefront, you know, and that happened because of the session or the great breakup, whatever you want to call it.

00;04;24;02 - 00;04;52;05
Sara Madera
You know, where women accounted for 55% of the jobs lost in just one month in 2018, 2020. So I think that that had that really made companies sort of sit up and take notice. You know, that when they were losing all these women and so they started talking about these things that I think we're great for all parents, not just moms, but particularly, you know, that this was focus on as women, as caregivers, you know, offering more of that paid leave, the work from home, the flexible work options, you know, the higher wages to bring women back.

00;04;52;11 - 00;05;09;08
Sara Madera
You know, I felt like women were willing to put their foot down and walk away because they couldn't quit their job as parents. So they try to find, you know, balance and, you know, leave burnout where they could, but the workplace responded and said, we want, we want to have you and that they were problem solved.

00;05;09;09 - 00;05;12;20
Sara Madera
Problem solving mode to focus on how to make that work for them.

00;05;12;23 - 00;05;45;07
Paul Sullivan
You know, one of the things and the home front that we found is that, you know, in many of the company dads is a diverse group. There are 25 million lead dads in America, 125,000 people. So I don't want to speak for all of them. But, you know, many who had, you know, knowledge worker jobs or white collar jobs that they were able to do at home, they may not have been as involved or as lead dad ish before the pandemic, but there's something about it that made them think, hey, you know, I don't want to go back to how it was before, or I want to have more of a presence at home

00;05;45;09 - 00;06;07;12
Paul Sullivan
and be a full time dad. Not not an event dad have. And at least in our group, again, self-selecting that they opt in to be part of the company. Dads. We don't have a draft board that that recruits them. But that group has really opted in and leaned into this notion. And, you know, when we talk to their spouses that often their wives, they feel a benefit.

00;06;07;15 - 00;06;30;28
Paul Sullivan
But I'm hearing from you, at least at the top of this, that a lot of the women you're working with, a lot of the working moms aren't finding that, their partners or their husbands are helping out as much at home. And I guess I'd ask if that is the case. What what tips do you give to them to get, get their husbands to, to help out more, to become, you know, future candidates for for the company of dads.

00;06;30;28 - 00;06;32;03
Paul Sullivan
We can really dads.

00;06;32;05 - 00;06;45;20
Sara Madera
Yeah. I love that question. That's a great question. So it's really interesting. I love when I speak with so many, you know, women, whether again, colleagues or clients. So many of them tell me, oh, my husband is great. He does so much, you know, and I'm so grateful for him that you know, that he does. Basically he does.

00;06;45;20 - 00;06;49;04
Sara Madera
So much more than my dad did. But so I am.

00;06;49;11 - 00;07;01;23
Paul Sullivan
The bar is usually pretty low when I, when I look at, that, that generation and that you could give out little medals to say like, you know, I changed one diaper in my life. Oh, yeah, I changed zero diapers, but that is really setting the bar low.

00;07;01;26 - 00;07;27;08
Sara Madera
Yes, I, I would agree, but most of them are. A few of, you know, my husband house. My husband does best. My husband does not. But most of them I think across the board, maybe all of them are still exhausted. They're still overwhelmed. They're still really tired. They're still, you know, carrying the mental load. And so they're still not feeling that even while their husband is helping, again, doing more, they're still not feeling that things are equitable at home.

00;07;27;11 - 00;07;42;22
Sara Madera
And I do think a big part of that is the mental load that even if their husband is helping, maybe he makes the meals, like at my house. But, you know, the wife is still the one who is doing the the meal planning or maybe the grocery shopping or, you know, all of the sort of the, the mental piece of it.

00;07;42;25 - 00;07;58;25
Sara Madera
There's still that sort of execution piece that, you know, that their husband is helping with, but not that, you know, not not the sort of the bigger piece, the mental load. And of course, then I have a conversation with them, because sometimes they are having, you know, they have mom guilt, right? When their husband is doing the dishes and they have their feet up, you know, and then they're like, oh, I should be helping.

00;07;58;28 - 00;08;16;26
Sara Madera
So that's a different conversation. But for sure, the always the conversation we start with kind of what are their values, what is important to them, you know, is it important to them that the kids, you know, have a have a meal? Is it important that that meal is, you know, is is healthy? Is it just or is it really important that they have family time and just that they're eating together.

00;08;16;29 - 00;08;31;27
Sara Madera
Right. And what what is actually what is important to them. And almost across the board, which is great, I love and I'm so happy to hear this that, you know, between in their relationship, values that, you know, communication and honesty is important. So then I really, you know, use that to sort of.

00;08;31;27 - 00;08;36;04
Paul Sullivan
What what kind of marriage is that? Passion and honesty.

00;08;36;06 - 00;08;52;17
Sara Madera
You know, the best guide. And then so we use that as a, as a way to start the conversation. You know, you say that this is important to you. This is important in your relationship. How can you talk about the needs that you have? You know, in terms of, you know, what else you need at home, you know, is he able to provide that?

00;08;52;17 - 00;09;06;11
Sara Madera
Do you need to outsource that? You know, how can how can these needs be met? And that's one thing that we always talk about too, is I think men are really good at this. Men are really good about speaking about what they need or what they want and making it happen. And I think that women aren't as we're not.

00;09;06;11 - 00;09;27;17
Sara Madera
I don't know if it's conditioned or what, but I think it's harder. It's it's harder for a lot of women. And so I think that's great when they work with me, that we're able to find what it is that they want and they need, and they're able to express it better. You know, it kind of comes out from under those layers of, well, my kids need this or my job needs this, or my husband needs this, and we can get to what they want and what they need so that they're able to communicate that to their husband.

00;09;27;24 - 00;09;31;17
Sara Madera
And then start this conversation of how do we make things more equitable at home?

00;09;31;19 - 00;09;47;21
Paul Sullivan
You know, one of the things we do is a simple exercise when we work with couples is and when you and I met, at a conference a couple of months ago, this is something I said. It's simple exercise of taking out a piece of paper, the husband wife in it, writing down the things that they do.

00;09;47;21 - 00;10;05;07
Paul Sullivan
You know, the unpaid stuff, the stuff around the house, the things that they do, and then the things that they think their partner does. And they both do it, and then they, they, they compare and and you see, and of course, the list are never the same. And, you know, each person thinks that they actually do more than they do.

00;10;05;10 - 00;10;22;17
Paul Sullivan
But the point of this is, is to get a conversation going, communication being key. I was joking, you know, we make life communicating, so that's important. But the other part is, I think, to sort of address you because there's a crucial. But there's one thing feeling overwhelmed, there's one thing, caring too much of the mental load.

00;10;22;17 - 00;10;43;22
Paul Sullivan
But if you're not careful, in a relationship, it can tip into resentment. And as I say, you know, resentment doesn't start when you get married. Resentment does hopefully not. Or when you first have your first child, your second child, then you get a promotion or, resentment. It's sort of like the dust under the couch, like it just accumulates there.

00;10;43;22 - 00;11;00;10
Paul Sullivan
Unless you're really vigilant and you're looking like, wow, that's a lot of dust. Let me clean that up. Otherwise, it just is there. And then you go and you move. Ten years later, you're like, wow, look at all this dust here. How do you intend to. We do this simple exercise to get people to think this through, because we don't want people to get to the resentment phase.

00;11;00;10 - 00;11;27;00
Paul Sullivan
And this also works, for us in the workplace, because you can also, you know, do the same exercise. With employees and managers in slightly different guidance. But when you think of, you know, techniques that you use to help, your clients, you know, not just say, you know, what they want, what they want, as, you know, working moms, but how they're gonna accomplish that with their their husband or partner.

00;11;27;04 - 00;11;37;00
Paul Sullivan
What are some of the things you do to help them translate, you know, what they want into what that family system can, can actually achieve or sustain?

00;11;37;02 - 00;11;51;27
Sara Madera
Yeah, I love that you did the list, because that's actually something that I use as well, because I do think there's a lot of those invisible tasks that both sides do that the other is not aware of, right? Especially like paying bills. You know, whoever's doing that, it used to be you, you know, maybe you sat down at the kitchen table and wrote a check.

00;11;51;27 - 00;12;01;17
Sara Madera
And so it was very visual and it was very physical. And now it's, you know, they probably do it on their computer or on their phone. And it's, you know, it's kind of an invisible in that way that was not being.

00;12;01;19 - 00;12;06;17
Paul Sullivan
You keep talking to I'm just going to pay this, credit card, but I'm listening.

00;12;06;20 - 00;12;14;04
Sara Madera
Exactly. So like, I think having that list is so, you know, it's really clear. You know, my husband takes out the trash, and I always thank him for it. And I don't.

00;12;14;04 - 00;12;29;25
Paul Sullivan
You know, why should you? Why should you take why should you? This is a great why should you thank him for doing something that somebody has to do? Like, I don't think like any. It's not above and beyond. It's like, you know, men getting thanked for taking the kids for the afternoon. What? Why why should they be thanked?

00;12;29;25 - 00;12;47;15
Paul Sullivan
Because they're a parent as well. And I think a lot about, you know, I, I'm, I'm the one in my house that carries more of the mental load, but I certainly don't carry all of it. We, we sort of divide it up the mental load, as my wife said, you know, I'm much more I'm better at logistics and she handles a lot of the, the other stuff and it works.

00;12;47;15 - 00;13;12;07
Paul Sullivan
But, you know, do I thank her? You know, when she gets the buys the Christmas presents for our kids? Maybe. But, you know, maybe not. I mean, does she thank me when I organize the schedules? For everything. For the kids? Maybe. Maybe not. But I don't really care because we've divided it up, and it's not like, okay, I'm doing this, and I need praise.

00;13;12;10 - 00;13;34;04
Paul Sullivan
We both have have had a lot of conversations about this. I mean, we're 13 years into the parenting journey and 18 years into the relationship. And that helps us. But I know that we're also not, you know, normal. So if people haven't had those conversations and they're still thanking each other for things that somebody has to do and to your kids are old enough to do it for you, I mean, then that's the ideal, like, way to keep your kids around.

00;13;34;07 - 00;13;38;09
Paul Sullivan
But that takes a while. I can't, like, tell my five year old to carry the trash out. You know,

00;13;38;12 - 00;13;52;25
Sara Madera
For us to have something that's really important to us, like, we, you know, that's how we kind of keep the dust from getting, you know, gathering up under the sofa us to have that gratitude, you know, for each other, for those small tasks, you know, and I say, he's really great about thanking me for doing the laundry. You know, that's something that I do.

00;13;53;02 - 00;14;06;07
Sara Madera
And, you know, so he makes it like every week he's like, thank you so much for doing the laundry. I appreciate it. You know, and I'm actually that is one of my goals for this year is to do the same back to him to to show that gratitude so that we don't kind of let the others things that just build up.

00;14;06;07 - 00;14;07;20
Sara Madera
And that's how we work together.

00;14;07;20 - 00;14;09;27
Paul Sullivan
But what's your husband's name? Which has a first name?

00;14;10;00 - 00;14;10;23
Sara Madera
Christian.

00;14;10;25 - 00;14;19;03
Paul Sullivan
Christian. I've never seen anybody take out the garbage like you. The Jessica, as I throw it into the trash. It's just Fanta.

00;14;19;06 - 00;14;32;04
Sara Madera
It's great. I'm gonna. I'm going to record that. I'm going to try that. Once you. He'll probably look at me strangely. But, you know, even as much as he does that, you know, there are times he does make fun of me because he's just like, I just don't know that men will ever worry as much as women do.

00;14;32;06 - 00;14;51;20
Sara Madera
And I'm like, well, that worrying, that's what make sure that the kids have underwear and, you know, you know, winter clothes. Yeah. You know that worrying is what, you know, kind of keeps us, you know, our family together. So, you know, yes. Like we do. We are thankful. And we we you know, are grateful for each other, but we also make known to each other a little bit, you know, within it, within our rights as well, you know, for these things.

00;14;51;20 - 00;15;11;02
Sara Madera
But, you know, honestly, they might, you know, he's he's not going to become the worrier. And like, that's not going to help move our family forward. But I will and and it will, you know. So it just takes a little bit of, you know, give and take, you know, both both serious and not serious, you know, to, to, you know, to keep us in our happy place, you know.

00;15;11;04 - 00;15;32;10
Paul Sullivan
When I'm away and, and my wife is running, you know, the monkey show that is our family. I have no concerns whatsoever. I do, you know, obviously, I call home and check it, but I don't have any concerns. And. And if the kids watch, 14 hours of TV and eat Froot Loops all day, I'm like, well, you know, you know, we all make decisions, which would never happen in my we would never do that.

00;15;32;10 - 00;15;51;19
Paul Sullivan
But I'm just saying I'm able to sort of, you know, shut it off and I have a question, you know, throw it out there in a lot of the in a man I've talked to, they worry about, you know, what's called, you know, maternal gatekeeping, which is a really jargony term, that, another person I had on the podcast, Kate Mangino, who wrote a book called Equal Partners.

00;15;51;26 - 00;16;16;13
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, it talks about and that is, is the idea of, you know, letting go, like trusting that whichever side the husband or the wife or the wife, the husband, whatever has it. And like, you're both in there as parent and nobody is, is sort of, you know, fulfilling a, completing a task, their parenting the way that they see fit and your child is safe, healthy, and that you've not married a sociopath.

00;16;16;13 - 00;16;35;17
Paul Sullivan
So it's going to work out fine. What do you see that as is, you know, a place that people have to to get to accepting that, you know, two different strategies are can be equally good. Or are we there after the pandemic? And we realize, you know, this is a battle we don't need to to fight.

00;16;35;20 - 00;16;51;19
Sara Madera
You know, I think that that changes with the age of the kids. I mean, in my experience, that's what I saw when like when my kids were infants and they're with me a lot more of the time because of, you know, breastfeeding and just, you know, the time that I had spent with them during that, I felt like there was a lot more of that kind of maternal gatekeeping.

00;16;51;19 - 00;17;10;18
Sara Madera
And I was just like, oh, don't burp them like that. Don't hold them like that. You know, even I saw it in myself, you know, in that, you know, just really because of the time I spent with them, I felt more of an expert, I guess, with them. But now that they're getting older and, you know, my, my, I see that my husband brings something different to the relationship.

00;17;10;20 - 00;17;27;22
Sara Madera
So it becomes a lot more of a conversation for exactly that reason and that, you know, that I don't I'm not a I'm not as likely to take the lead, you know, and he's so great at answering my, my kids 50 questions about, you know, what happened to the Titanic or, you know, whatever the question may be. And we're I'm like, oh, I probably would have liked.

00;17;27;23 - 00;17;31;22
Paul Sullivan
To have questions after the first one. I mean, it's sunk. I mean, so they need to know, like.

00;17;31;23 - 00;17;45;22
Sara Madera
Oh my gosh, my son wants to know what they ate, what kind of plates they had. I might want to know all of it. You know, I would have lost, you know, lost my mind 40 questions before that. And he's just happy to continue on, you know? And I'm just like, wow. You know, I see, like, how great that is.

00;17;45;22 - 00;17;57;18
Sara Madera
And the value that he, you know, that he brings. And so it has as we've gotten older and you know, I'm able to see a lot more of that. He spends his, you know, equal amount of time with them. Then it becomes more of that conversation. And it's really it's really beautiful.

00;17;57;21 - 00;18;34;12
Paul Sullivan
You know, I don't want to, put you on the spot to name the companies you work for. You're welcome to. But, you know, before, you know, starting your consultancy, you did work for some pretty big companies. Mmhm. Obviously mostly pre pre pandemic. When you think about your working life for some big companies as a working mom, and how it went versus you because you said at the top that gender equality is coming quicker to the workplace when you see, you know, what has happened in the past, you know, two and a half years in corporate America to the women that you're working with, what are the biggest differences that show you

00;18;34;12 - 00;18;40;09
Paul Sullivan
that or show us that, you know, gender equality is really come into the workplace pretty quickly?

00;18;40;11 - 00;19;01;06
Sara Madera
I think it's a lot of the conversations that we're having, you know, in terms of that flexibility and the work from home, you know, the parental leave. I'm just seeing that so much more. I mean, I am new back to the U.S., so I probably don't have as many direct experiences with that. You know, when I was overseas, for sure, the relationship, to working parents, particularly working mothers, was really different.

00;19;01;08 - 00;19;20;17
Sara Madera
Then the conversations that I'm having, you know, in the U.S., which is which is great. It's one of the wonderful things about the US, that I think that people are having these conversations and despite us being behind in a lot of other things in terms of, paid leave for, for our new parents. But but other than that, the conversations in terms of the direction that we're going is definitely positive.

00;19;20;19 - 00;19;35;19
Sara Madera
Which is fantastic. And I think that those that, you know, in terms of just even the the transparency that we're able to have now in terms of, yes, like you say, that being an event parent, I'm going to graduation, I'm going to the soccer game. And just being able to say that, I think that's a huge change, I think.

00;19;35;19 - 00;19;48;25
Sara Madera
And a and a great, great sign that we're moving in the right direction, that people can really be them, their whole selves and can show mom or dad they're a parent and that they're able to do an awesome job at work and do an awesome job at home.

00;19;48;28 - 00;20;09;18
Paul Sullivan
So before I ask you, the the last question, I'm going to ask myself the question, which is, I'm going to have you talk about the work front. And I would say, like on the home front, if you're finding that there is a lack of equality between the working dad and the working mom, I go back to what I said earlier and that you need to sort of make a list, sit down, prioritize and discuss.

00;20;09;18 - 00;20;24;17
Paul Sullivan
Honestly, not at a point of, you know, frustration where you just had an argument, but on a, you know, random Saturday afternoon when everything's quiet and really work it out because these problems don't age well and they if they go into resentment, you're you're doomed. And then that's, you know, happy talk. More than one wants to reach out.

00;20;24;17 - 00;20;55;06
Paul Sullivan
But that's the simplest solution as sort of a starter solution for the company that if I put that question to you, and what you're doing in the workplace, if somebody feels like she's in a role or in a, at a company where that move to gender equality is going more slowly or too slowly, what are some of the things that that she could do to help move that process along, or at least, you know, advocate, you know, for her, for herself?

00;20;55;08 - 00;21;14;02
Sara Madera
Yeah, I think that's such a good question. I think that one is talking. If they're if they have a good relationship with their boss, is talking to their boss about it. And I think that this is one of the reasons that gender equity at work is coming along faster is that when they have that conversation with their boss, their boss often will go into problem solving mode.

00;21;14;02 - 00;21;35;07
Sara Madera
Okay, I hear you. You know what? What can make this better? You know, how can we how can we solve this? What would resolve this? You know, you know, do you need more time off? Do you need, you know, what is it that you need? And start having a conversation, whether that's with, you know, between the two of them or with HR or whoever, they need to bring in to have the resources in order to respond to, you know, to the situation, you know, at hand.

00;21;35;10 - 00;21;48;05
Sara Madera
Hopefully if they have a go to, you know, if they have a good relationship with their boss, they can have that conversation more directly if they go to HR, as obviously can still happen. Maybe it's a little bit more complicated, but you know, there are resources and people there who can start talking and a problem solving manner.

00;21;48;07 - 00;22;10;12
Sara Madera
You know, I think that where this gets complicated is when you do try to have this conversation at home, and then the response isn't necessarily as problem solving oriented, that it becomes a little bit more sensitive where the husband says, oh, you're attacking me. I'm a failure. And that's not as problem solving, problem solving oriented, which makes it a lot harder and more sensitive and, you know, a lot more, delicate to maneuver.

00;22;10;16 - 00;22;28;05
Sara Madera
But hopefully at work it is a little bit more straightforward and they're able to at least start having the conversations. Probably the solution won't be, you know, a habit won't happen tomorrow, but at least the conversation and the, you know, solutions can start to be, can can start to be found, which I think, you know, again, starts to move you in a positive direction.

00;22;28;11 - 00;22;34;04
Sara Madera
Or if it doesn't. And I also gives you information and you can start to look at a companies that do offer the solutions that you need.

00;22;34;07 - 00;22;48;22
Paul Sullivan
Right? I and that's one of the things you talk about, you know, all the time some of the work we do a company is at your top 20% have so many options. And so if you don't get this right, they're going to leave your bottom 30%. They're not going anywhere because nobody really wants them. You may not even want them.

00;22;48;22 - 00;22;55;12
Paul Sullivan
But you know what you do for those top workers, will hopefully, you know, trickle down throughout the workforce.

00;22;55;14 - 00;22;55;29
Sara Madera
Yeah, I.

00;22;55;29 - 00;23;03;26
Paul Sullivan
Agree, Sarah Madera, founder of Plan Creatively, thanks so much for joining me on the company's podcast.

00;23;03;29 - 00;23;07;28
Sara Madera
Thank you so much for having me. This has been fun.

00;23;08;00 - 00;23;33;10
Paul Sullivan
Thank you for listening to the company of that podcast. I also want to thank the people who make this podcast and everything else that we do. The company of dads possible hell, they're Mira, who is our audio producer. Lindsay Decker handles all of our social media. Terry Brennan, who's helping us with the newsletter and audience acquisition, Emily Servin, who is our web maestro, and of course, Evan Roosevelt, who is working side by side with me.

00;23;33;10 - 00;23;50;28
Paul Sullivan
And many of the things that we do here at the Company of Dads. It's a great team. And we're we're just trying to bring you the best in fatherhood. Remember, the one stop shop for everything is our newsletter, the dad. Sign up at the Company of dads.com backslash. The dad. Thank you again for listening.