EP88: How A Dad Used His Divorce To Help Kids

Interview with Terry Smith / Author of See You Later

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

After going through his second divorce, Terry Smith got full custody of his daughter. Watching her come to terms with what happened pained him. So Smith, an artist, wrote a book, See You Later, with her to help children and parents talk about divorce in a better way. With 18 percent of fathers in the U.S. being divorced, widowed or otherwise single, Terry is helping fathers explain to their children what may be hard for them to understand. Listen to ways to soften the blow of parents splitting.

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Transcript

00;00;06;07 - 00;00;27;07
Paul Sullivan
Welcome to the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, silly, strange and sublime aspects of being a lead dad in a world where men are the go to parent, aren't always accepted at work, among their friends, or in their community for what they're doing. I'm your host, Paul Sullivan. Our podcast is just one of the many things we produce each week at the Company of Dads.

00;00;27;08 - 00;00;49;15
Paul Sullivan
We have various features, including the lead dad of the week. We have our community both online with some in-person events as well. We have a new resource library for all fathers. The one stop shop for all of this is our newsletter, The Dad. So sign up at the Company of dads.com backslash the dad. Today my guest is Terry Smith, author of the new children's book.

00;00;49;16 - 00;01;16;29
Paul Sullivan
See you later. It's a book about helping younger children understand divorce, but also to come to terms with the stress and anxiety that comes with seeing their parents split up. Terry is himself a single divorced dad, part of the 18% of fathers in the United States who are divorced, widowed, or otherwise single and a significant part of the community we're building at the company that he came to this book through a successful career in the art world.

00;01;17;04 - 00;01;23;08
Paul Sullivan
Coming to us from Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Welcome, Terry, to the Company of Dads podcast.

00;01;23;10 - 00;01;26;22
Terry Smith
Thank you. I'm really happy to be here to talk with you guys.

00;01;26;24 - 00;01;42;29
Paul Sullivan
You know, we were talking before and you said you know, you wrote this book, for your daughter, who's now eight, but you also have a son in his 30s. How have you changed as a father between when you had your son and when you had your daughter?

00;01;43;02 - 00;02;14;18
Terry Smith
I think, you know, when you have a child at a young age, I think that you haven't quite become a man yet. And you're still learning who you are as a person, as a human, and how you coexisting relate with other humans in this world. And I think with my son, even though I was really nurturing and caring, I think there's a lot I didn't know about fatherhood and being a father other than just providing, I think, as I got older, I became more experience and an experience.

00;02;14;18 - 00;02;42;25
Terry Smith
I developed more as a human being. And I think I was a bit more kind of understanding of what others were going through and not just what I was going through. And I think that as I evolved, I think, you know, the, the, relationship I have with my daughter is, is, a bit more developed and a bit more has more depth than it did when I had my son, when it was just pretty much just provide.

00;02;42;25 - 00;02;48;04
Terry Smith
And with my daughter, it's more of a nurturing and a providing situation.

00;02;48;07 - 00;02;57;00
Paul Sullivan
You know, did you do anything specifically different with your daughter, or is it better to say that you were just a different, more, more mature person when she was?

00;02;57;04 - 00;03;20;03
Terry Smith
Yeah, I think I definitely, so, you know, I think about those things like, you know, the fact like, I'm so hands on with everything my daughters are involved in. And I think about, like, everything that, that we do together. And then I think about my son and what I did with him. And I think, like with my daughter, like, you know, I'm at every game, I'm working on every single homework.

00;03;20;05 - 00;03;41;15
Terry Smith
You know, I'm there for her talking about, like, everything that happened to her. And I don't remember half the things with my son. I don't remember too many ball games. I don't remember, you know, working on homework too much with him. It's just like, I think that I was just really involved in my life, and he was just kind of like a byproduct of that.

00;03;41;17 - 00;04;05;10
Terry Smith
And I think with my daughter is like, you know, she I'm really invested in her, like, you know, as a whole in every aspect of her life. So I would say that's the difference. I would say that, you know, being involved in everything and every aspect, every feeling, every emotion with my daughter. You know, I wasn't as involved and committed to my son, but I loved him.

00;04;05;12 - 00;04;07;16
Terry Smith
But it wasn't the same type of commitment.

00;04;07;19 - 00;04;26;19
Paul Sullivan
When you think about, you know, the connection you have of your daughter when you talk to your son. Now he's in his 30s. You know, it's obviously a very different relationship that you have with, an adult child than you do with, a child child. So I'm just curious, you know, how your relationship with your your son has evolved over the years?

00;04;26;21 - 00;04;43;20
Terry Smith
Oh, yeah. I mean, I mean, now he's a man. You and I mean, so it's like I'm one of those people that I have no regrets. I don't look back on anything as a mistake. You know, and it's just like. And as far as he's concerned and we've talked about it, he says, like you, the you're the best dad I could ever hope for.

00;04;43;22 - 00;05;03;13
Terry Smith
You know, so I was a great version of who I was with him because I've always been really loving and I've always been very intuitive. And I've always like, you know, if you're in my family or friends or even a homeless person, I have great compassion for people. So it's just like, so I think when my son, it was he felt love.

00;05;03;14 - 00;05;20;14
Terry Smith
And it's like we don't have any barometer or anything to measure that against. Like I was his only dad, so he wasn't I couldn't like, really be like, well, you know, what kind of dad are you? He just knows, like, I, you know, now he knows I did the best I could with the tools I had and with the education I had.

00;05;20;16 - 00;05;40;04
Terry Smith
And, I mean, he doesn't measure himself against my daughter or the person I become because he's growing up as well. It's like how he felt at 18 is different from how you feels at 34. So, you know, we've all every day we're all evolving. If we if we're, you know, putting one foot in front of the other, you know.

00;05;40;06 - 00;06;10;01
Paul Sullivan
You got divorced when your daughter was four. Correct. Yes. Yeah. You know, my my parents divorced when I was a kid. I remember being a pretty, brutal time. That's probably an understatement. But as you were going through the divorce before you got the idea to write, the book, what were some of the thoughts that you were having around yourself, but also as a father, but also your your daughter, you know, what are some of the thoughts or going through your head as you were making your way through that divorce process?

00;06;10;04 - 00;06;33;07
Terry Smith
Well, I learned from the divorce I had with my son's mom. So that's that was pretty much my precursor here. That's that's the, where I the well, like I dug from. So with my with my son, like I said, I was, I was selfish. And when I was getting a divorce from his mom, we were bickering, we were bitter.

00;06;33;10 - 00;06;51;21
Terry Smith
It was just about, you know, how can I how do you and you're going to outdo me and like, you know, and my son was just, like, nowhere to be seen. And I remember one time she said, you know, I'm going out with my new boyfriend, and why don't you take care of your son? And I was like, well, I'm gonna go out with my new girlfriend.

00;06;51;23 - 00;07;14;21
Terry Smith
And I never forgot that. This is like, you know, the things that stay with you. I'm still sick when I think about it. And it's like, you know, and the fact that he had to be, like, on the sidelines to view this, it's just like, you know, so I made sure, you know, when me and my ex were separated with my daughter not to make the same mistakes, I went straight into damage control mode of her.

00;07;14;29 - 00;07;32;21
Terry Smith
I went straight into, I mean, nothing in this, and I just have to make it better for you, and I have to make it better for my ex. I'm not going to be the person I was when I was in my 20s. I'm a different man now, and I'm going to handle this in a way that we can just, you know, have some stability in it.

00;07;32;24 - 00;07;37;08
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. When did you get the idea to write the book about what was going on?

00;07;37;10 - 00;07;56;21
Terry Smith
Well, that was I think, I want to say I it's always been, I guess two years ago, I kind of like, I, you know, my dad said something to me when I was a kid and I don't know what the context was, but he said, you know, Terry, it's not it's not goodbye. It's just, you know, I think every time I would see him or see someone, I'd be like, goodbye.

00;07;56;23 - 00;08;26;20
Terry Smith
And he'd be like, it's not goodbye. You're going to see me later. And you know, the craziest things are like the things that stay with you. But that stayed with me for decades. And. And with my daughter. It's just like, you know, I, I, you know, when we were having visitations with her mom, and she was so distraught and so traumatized every time, like, we would leave her like we could be seeing her the next day, my daughter would just start screaming and crying, and I was like, why is she doing this?

00;08;26;20 - 00;08;45;06
Terry Smith
Like, I couldn't understand, like, you know, we're in California and you seen your mom, you had a great day and you're going to see it tomorrow. Like, why are you doing this? So I just decided, you know what? I need to talk to her, you know, let me see where she's coming from. And she was just like, you know, I feel like mom is going to go away and I'm never going to see her again.

00;08;45;06 - 00;09;01;23
Terry Smith
And. And I don't want to be separated from her. And then that's when I told her my, it's not, it's not, it's not goodbye. It's just. See you later. You know, it's like, you know, you're going to see her again. And then she kind of got it. But I was like, you know what? To drive this home, I'm have to do with everything.

00;09;01;29 - 00;09;15;04
Terry Smith
So we go to the park and I'll be like, see you later, Park. And we would go to the swimming pool. See you later. Swimming pool. And we'd go like, you know, anything that she was doing in the car? We could go on a car ride, be like, see you like a car, you know? And she would start it.

00;09;15;04 - 00;09;31;20
Terry Smith
She started doing like, you know, like, before I could see it, she would see it. And then the next, like, maybe not the next time, but a few visitations after that, she got it. It's like there was no more crying. There was no more screaming. There was no more. It was kind of like, okay, mom, I'ma see you tomorrow.

00;09;31;22 - 00;09;46;14
Terry Smith
And and I had a great time. And I was like, it worked. You know? Just something as simple as, see you later. Communicating with a child that it's not goodbye and dealing with their abandonment and their anxiety. It's like it worked for me.

00;09;46;17 - 00;09;51;18
Paul Sullivan
That's remarkable. And you're in Louisiana. Where is your your daughter's mom? Where does she live now?

00;09;51;20 - 00;09;53;20
Terry Smith
She's in California, in Los Angeles, California.

00;09;53;21 - 00;10;00;18
Paul Sullivan
So? So see you later. There is a a sort of great distance there, but is that still holding up for her that she still understands it, you know.

00;10;00;18 - 00;10;17;15
Terry Smith
Oh, she's on a whole nother level. I mean, she's just like I mean, she's like eight going on 16, you know, she's she does she's doing great. We just had a visitation with her mom this summer and it's like, you know, she's at the point now where she's kind of like ready to go, you know what I mean?

00;10;17;15 - 00;10;39;24
Terry Smith
Like, I've had enough of this visitation with my dad coming. So. So she's in a great place. You know, my daughter, like I said, she's she's a straight-A student, is pre-K. She's, you know, winning tennis tournaments, gymnastics, karate, Spanish, French. You know, swimming. I mean, she does everything. And, you know, she's, like, such a well-rounded person.

00;10;39;24 - 00;10;54;14
Terry Smith
She hates litter. Like, if she saw a piece of trash in history, she would get out the car and pick it up. It's just like she's so caring about people and environment, and it's just like. And she, you know, she's just, like, the most unselfish person that I ever met in my entire life.

00;10;54;17 - 00;11;18;26
Paul Sullivan
But when did the idea. Casey, you tell us. See you later. You see how it's going to work? But as you told us, you know, off air, your career has mostly been in the art world. Yes. So how did it come that you would, you know. Right. A chance to work. And, you know, for the listeners, this is this is sort of, you know, aimed at, you know, kids in the sort of pre-K to sort of second, third grade area.

00;11;19;02 - 00;11;22;22
Paul Sullivan
How did that idea come to you as a way to help? Well.

00;11;22;24 - 00;11;44;14
Terry Smith
I think, well, I've always been an artist and I've always been a, I've always been on the business side of art as well. And with my art, I've always dealt with the human condition. You know, I it's all about realism and and and I'm not into fantasy. I'm not into escapism. It's like I'm into dealing with real issues.

00;11;44;17 - 00;12;15;03
Terry Smith
And so art, my art reflects real issues. And part of art in my canon is also poetry is also writing. It's also painting. So, you know, there's a lot of mediums in that. So the writing to me was just another form of me being artistic. So it wasn't a big leap or anything. It's like, you know, so because you have illustrations, you have text, you have placement, composition like it's all the art tools are all in, in, in writing and writing a children's book and a composition and construction of it.

00;12;15;06 - 00;12;37;19
Terry Smith
So for me to, you know, that was just to me, it was just another form of expression and, and and like I said, I base all my art on, on what I'm going through, what I'm feeling in my immediate surroundings. And so this, you know, my daughter and what she experienced, I'm always thinking, I always tell her when bad things happen, you can't look at them as being negative.

00;12;37;25 - 00;12;54;25
Terry Smith
You have to look at the positive in it. It's like, you know, what can we get out of this that can bring this, you know, bring this somewhere else and create another dynamic from it? And I told her, let's write about our story, that you can help me write it and that it will help other families to get through this.

00;12;54;27 - 00;13;13;17
Terry Smith
So she was on board with it. She loves the book. She loves like the illustrations, the story. And like I said, you know, when you look in the book, you see a police station that was like, you know, modeled after the police station, that we have our visitations, you know, it's a book story. And that's where we would have our our pick ups and drop offs.

00;13;13;19 - 00;13;24;05
Terry Smith
It's just like her room. She wants to go to jail. That's in there. So everything is just realistic. From the first page to the end page is a mirror reflection of our life and our experiences.

00;13;24;07 - 00;13;28;24
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. What were some of the input that she gave you as you were creating this book?

00;13;28;26 - 00;13;33;19
Terry Smith
Oh, like, that doesn't look like me or is like, what.

00;13;33;19 - 00;13;35;01
Paul Sullivan
Kind of artist are you, dad? Come on.

00;13;35;01 - 00;14;03;11
Terry Smith
Yeah. Maya. Lucia. Who's that? You know, it's like, I didn't say that. You know what I mean? Or this is the way I would say it, or, you know, and then she would just be like, dad, you got it? Or that's it. Like, once I hit a stride and I was like, okay, this is it. But yeah, she she had, something to say about every aspect of the book the construction, the dimensions, you know, the the color, the illustrations.

00;14;03;14 - 00;14;20;17
Terry Smith
This was like, so like she just read the book. We gave a couple of copies of teachers, and they read it in a school, and they all were just like, Maya, you're an author. Like we, you know, she's the third grade. She came I picked her up yesterday. She was so happy. She was like, I'm a star, you know?

00;14;20;17 - 00;14;53;09
Terry Smith
It's like I saw the principal today. And they were like, oh, we're going to have you. And, you know, Maya come by the school and do a reading for the school. So, you know, it's it's really and I think this conversation, you know, like I've been on a lot of women's podcasts about divorce. You're the first male. And, and I think a lot of the women are just shocked to see, like, a man, like, take responsibility of being a single father and then also, like, loving it and then writing a book about it and just like, you know, and then being African-American on top of it.

00;14;53;12 - 00;15;16;01
Terry Smith
So I just think that there's so many things like, especially women that are just kind of like amaze. And then they can't believe I have single, full custody. You know, that's the other part that they really don't understand. And, so, so it's been a great experience like, you know, just just talking about this book and about me and my and what we've experienced and how we navigated the war.

00;15;16;01 - 00;15;17;06
Terry Smith
Does it get out of it?

00;15;17;08 - 00;15;36;16
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. You know, wouldn't it? It's a great book. It's a beautiful book. It's a great story. Do you have. And that's and that's enough. But when, when you wrote this, did you have any sort of bigger goals for it? Did you see it as something that parents could buy their children to help them explain what was going on in that moment of divorce?

00;15;36;16 - 00;15;43;05
Paul Sullivan
Or is it more, you know, for those kids in class whose parents are still married? And to get more empathy, did you have a bigger goal like that?

00;15;43;05 - 00;16;10;00
Terry Smith
No. I think the the goal I had in mind was to assist parents who are going through what we went through. I mean, man, that first year, it's just like, you know, what, night didn't I cry? You know what night did? And I think about, you know, what she going through is like, so this, this book, you know, was something like I said, you know, just something like, see you later.

00;16;10;03 - 00;16;35;20
Terry Smith
And just time just heals all wounds, you know? So this book, you know, when I decided to create this book is because, you know, I, I went through hell and she went through hell. And this book helped us to to see our way back to the light. This book helped us to see our way back to a place that was positive and was enriching and that that that it wasn't like the end all be all.

00;16;35;22 - 00;16;55;04
Terry Smith
So I knew this book, you know, if parents pick this book up and like you said, man, it's like they say almost 50% in this country is divorce is separated in like one in every two kids in this country is affected by divorce or separation. I mean, that's a huge number. When you're dealing with 396 million people in the United States.

00;16;55;06 - 00;17;23;23
Terry Smith
So it's just like, so where I'm coming from is just that I know that this book can help everybody, you know, but this book can help a lot of people who don't know how to articulate what they're feeling and don't. And also those younger parents who don't realize that the children are just as important as they are in a divorce, that they need to be able to sit at the table and have a voice and to express their feelings, their emotions and their anxieties.

00;17;23;23 - 00;17;41;24
Terry Smith
And a lot of parents don't do that. The parents just pack the kids up like they like their luggage, and it's just like, and that. And that's not fair to the kid. And it's not fair to the union of their family before this thing happened to them. So this this book gives a voice to the children that hopefully the parents can listen to, to understand, you know what?

00;17;41;24 - 00;17;45;29
Terry Smith
We all have to get through this. We all are going through this.

00;17;46;01 - 00;18;11;27
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. You know, Terry Smith, author of. See you Later. There's been a great chat. One one last question for you. We've talked about the process. We talked about, you know, your daughter, we talked about kids in general. But what did this process mean for you? As you know, a man who's becoming, a single divorced dad for the second time.

00;18;11;29 - 00;18;44;13
Terry Smith
Man, it's like you always think you you can't learn like, you know, you take like you, you can't learn more, you know, like, you just have to be a sponge. And, you know, with this, it's like, you know, I've grown. I've learned so much about myself. I've learned so much about children. I've learned more about divorces, separation. You know, this this book and the process and what what I went through to create this book and also to grow as a human being, it's just like, you know, it's unmeasurable.

00;18;44;15 - 00;19;12;20
Terry Smith
So I just think that, you know, I'm thankful, like we all wish that we didn't go through it. You know, we all wish things could have been better. But you know what I always say to men? It's like, you know, we have one life. It is fleeting. And we have to make the most and the in the most of the life and what we've been and what we've been given, and to be thankful for what we have and not what we lost, but for what we have.

00;19;12;23 - 00;19;55;12
Terry Smith
So this book is a testament to that, and it's a testament to, to, you know, just being and and caring and, and also like, like just some empathy, you know, so so for me, that's what the book has been all about. It's just like it's it's something that I wanted to create to, to define me and my daughter and what we went through, and then also to help other parents and families who are going through what we went through, who were not able to articulate their feelings and see, you know, that each day that passes by and, you know, and like I always say, and this too shall pass.

00;19;55;15 - 00;20;01;15
Paul Sullivan
Patti Smith, thank you for being my guest today, Unaccompanied Dads podcast. I thoroughly enjoyed chatting with you now.

00;20;01;15 - 00;20;06;09
Terry Smith
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Take care of yourself for.

00;20;06;11 - 00;20;31;20
Paul Sullivan
Thank you for listening to the company of that podcast. I also want to thank the people who make this podcast and everything else that we do. The company that possible, Helder, Mira, who is our audio producer Lindsay Decker, and is all of our social media, Terry Brennan, who's helping us with the newsletter and audience acquisition, Emily Servin, who is our web maestro, and of course, Evan Roosevelt, who is working side by side with me.

00;20;31;20 - 00;20;49;09
Paul Sullivan
And many of the things that we do here at the Company of Dads. It's a great team. And we're, we're just trying to bring you the best in fatherhood. Remember, the one stop shop for everything is our newsletter, the dad. Sign up at the Company of dads.com backslash. The dad. Thank you again for listening.