EP89: How To Bust 13 Myths At Work That Hold Us Back

Interview with Mita Mallick / DEI Expert, Leading Voice for Change

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

Mita Mallick is challenging the lazy statements company leaders have made about diversity policies and laying out a plan to make workplaces more inclusive and to build stronger, better working teams. And when it comes to policies around care, she wants to invite men in to be part of the solution. Listen to how things can change for the benefit of the whole workforce.

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Transcript

00;00;06;05 - 00;00;31;09
Paul Sullivan
three to welcome to the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, silly, strange and sublime aspects of being a dad in a world where men are the go to parent, aren't always accepted at work, among their friends, or in the community for what they do. I'm your host, Paul Simon. Our podcast is just one of the many things we produce each week at the company that we have very features, including lead down to the week.

00;00;31;16 - 00;00;59;05
Paul Sullivan
We have our community both online and also with some in-person events. We have a new resource library for all fathers. The one stop shop for all of this is our newsletter, The Dad. So sign up at the company of dad.com backslash. The dad. Today my guest is Mita Mallick an inclusion advocate and LinkedIn top voice. She's a head of diversity, equity and inclusion at Carta, a tech company that helps more people owned parts of other companies.

00;00;59;07 - 00;01;26;10
Paul Sullivan
We're here to talk about her book “Reimagined Inclusion: Debunking 13 Myths to Transform Your Workplace”. Full and embarrassing disclosure. Years ago, I interviewed Mita when I was at the New York Times, and I didn't quote her in the story. As a lead dad, it was in retrospect, my Homer Simpson moment, “D’OH!” But Mita, to her immense credit, doesn't bring this up and is here today to talk.

00;01;26;10 - 00;01;30;12
Paul Sullivan
So Mita Mallick, welcome to the company Dads podcast.

00;01;30;14 - 00;01;33;17
Mita Mallick
Thank you, Paul, for having me I appreciate you.

00;01;33;19 - 00;01;54;10
Paul Sullivan
Before I had kids, I played poker with a group of journalists, both men and women in New York. And I remember this conversation with one of them was New York Times at an imprint, powers. And he's about to publish a book with the subtitle eight Patterns of Highly Effective Entrepreneurs. And we debated. He and I debated whether even or odd numbers were better for this.

00;01;54;12 - 00;02;13;18
Paul Sullivan
You went with 13, the unluckiest number of all, but very catchy. To detail the myths. What happened with that? I mean, surely you could have had 20 or 50, myths, but but talk about the significance of of 13 and these 13 myths that.

00;02;13;19 - 00;02;26;10
Mita Mallick
13 is my lucky number. June 13th is my birthday. So I go, yes, it's my lucky number. And so we won't overthink it. But I thought my first book, I've been waiting a long time to publish it. I'm going with 13.

00;02;26;12 - 00;02;30;09
Paul Sullivan
All right, that's good. I think I might like it. Number five. The four.

00;02;30;12 - 00;02;31;08
Mita Mallick
By five is the number.

00;02;31;08 - 00;02;51;23
Paul Sullivan
Two. All right. You know, you pulled no punches here. With challenging and some might say, you know, cringeworthy chapter titles like, I'm all for diverse talent as long as they're good or. Why are you asking for a raise? You and your husband make good money or we need more people of color and leadership. Let's launch a mentorship program.

00;02;51;25 - 00;03;17;24
Paul Sullivan
These resonate is true. We've had many guests on who have talked about, you know, these microaggressions, these moments where people say things that just, you know, you becomes the head exploding emoji. How do we change the workplace so that the sequel to this book has 13? You know, I don't know, completely banal chapter titles like my value was appreciated and I received the appropriate rates.

00;03;17;26 - 00;03;34;03
Mita Mallick
Well, thank you for reading the book. I know you had an advance copy, and I know ten is a precious commodity. I wrote the myths in the way I did because they're the stories we hold on to. It's like the bedtime stories we tell our children at night, the stories that aren't true, that we hold on to our workplace, and it holds us back for making meaningful progress.

00;03;34;03 - 00;03;55;25
Mita Mallick
And how do we do that? We do that by interrupting our own bias, by challenging each other with kindness and respect. When we hear bias show up in the workplace and there is no destination, Paul, to be an inclusive leader, it's a constant journey. And so part of that journey and leadership, I always say it's not a right, it's a privilege.

00;03;55;28 - 00;04;07;03
Mita Mallick
You have to continue to want to learn and want to do better. And so if you continue to strive to do that, we will end up in a better place tomorrow than we are right now in our workplaces.

00;04;07;05 - 00;04;28;13
Paul Sullivan
You know, I'd say that in a before I look at the times in my my career in journalism, I was very fortunate in that I had more, you know, good managers and good mentors than I had, you know, bad managers. But they're still, you know, plenty bad out there. And, you know, I also felt like, you know, when I was on the even if somebody told me something like, hey, you said something, it's not appropriate.

00;04;28;13 - 00;04;51;26
Paul Sullivan
I got it. And I, you know, I changed, but not everyone does that. And so, when you think if people listen to this interview. Okay, all right, this is this great. She's she's got this this senior job. She's helping make policy at this company. But how do I apply? You know, some of the things that she's putting out in this book to me, you know, because sometimes I'm going to go to a manager and it's like, hey, you know what?

00;04;51;28 - 00;05;10;05
Paul Sullivan
What you said was inappropriate. And let me explain to you why, can we change behavior? The person does. And of course, sometimes they don't. And so what do you do when that person isn't, as a, as amenable to, to change to, to to, you know, getting rid of one of the 13 myths that he or she, is part of.

00;05;10;07 - 00;05;29;18
Mita Mallick
I love that question. One of the things I have done often in my career and continue to do is not just speak up on behalf of myself, but others. And I'm tired. I'm tired cos I want people listening to think about stop being the bystander. When you see something, say something a little bit like the New York City subway, but when you see something, say something.

00;05;29;18 - 00;05;53;20
Mita Mallick
And let's not forget, there is, as you're saying, power, privilege, politics in our workplace. So in my career, when I have been the most junior and something happened or I saw something I didn't always figure, nor did I feel comfortable because I knew there would be retaliation. But what if I found someone in the workplace who, like yourself, was more senior, let's say, at the level of the person who had done something inappropriate?

00;05;53;20 - 00;06;16;02
Mita Mallick
What if I went and spoke to you about it? What if I found other people who could help me navigate that? And here's the thing, Paul. When we look at the marketplace right now, the power, one might argue, is in the hands of the employer. It always swings back and forth right. And so your employer brand and what your company stands for is ultimately what your employees say about you.

00;06;16;04 - 00;06;31;20
Mita Mallick
Right. And so if you decide to keep meta, who's a toxic leader in your organization when she's had five women of color leave in nine days, when it's a rotating door, right, rather than door recruiters just try to keep putting people on my team.

00;06;31;22 - 00;06;32;08
Paul Sullivan
Yeah.

00;06;32;11 - 00;06;53;08
Mita Mallick
People leaving. Guess what? I'm the I'm the problem. It's me. As Taylor Swift would say in my daughter's anti-hero song. Hi. It's me. I'm the problem. It's me. I am the problem. And so the question is, how much are you as a CEO going to do to protect me and actually put your own leadership brand at risk and your own reputation while I continue to cause hurt and harm to others?

00;06;53;08 - 00;07;06;25
Mita Mallick
And I think that more and more employees are like, I want to know what you're really about. Company. A company acts like, I'm going to ask those tough questions once I get the offer, because I want to make sure this is a healthy environment.

00;07;06;28 - 00;07;29;04
Paul Sullivan
And it's, as I said, a good point because in a certain company, certain industries, pride themselves on, you know, we're just going to get the work done. We're not going to care about it. And, you know, we talked about one of the other things. We had the lead data of the week. And this follows the lead data that we this week worked in, in advertising, you know, Madison Avenue Classic.

00;07;29;04 - 00;07;57;10
Paul Sullivan
And and he he said to me, I was really fortunate to be laid off when my children were born. And I said that doesn't sound very fortunate to me. And he said, no, because he's there to carve out a career, in which he was able to pick and choose who we would work for. He's a freelance creative director with compensated well and had the flexibility to, be able to be involved dad to support his wife in what she was doing career wise, and he would never been able to do that otherwise.

00;07;57;10 - 00;08;07;01
Paul Sullivan
And now he's in a position where he teaches at School of Visual Arts in New York. And he he talks about this in class, about how to find the good people.

00;08;07;03 - 00;08;07;11
Mita Mallick
Right?

00;08;07;11 - 00;08;24;18
Paul Sullivan
To to work for, but when you think, you know, and we were at an event where I was listening to you a couple months ago and you were giving advice to some of the younger people in the audience, and, you know, when they think they've landed that that plum job and there's that cognitive dissonance like, this is where I want to be.

00;08;24;18 - 00;08;52;22
Paul Sullivan
This is the company I love. I really enjoy what I'm doing. But there is this, you know, toxic, you know, manager is there do you think it most companies, companies that you're working for or have seen enough avenues for that person to get what he or she wants to continue moving up? Or is it sometimes, unfortunately, we still have to just, you know, leave and go to a company or work for somebody who more accurately mirrors our own values.

00;08;52;24 - 00;09;16;14
Mita Mallick
That's a great question. I've been in times in my career where I was pretty senior and work for someone pretty toxic, and there was just no way but out, right? I do think also when you work in very large organizations like a fortune ten, fortune 50, 400, there's a lot of places to move. And so if your manager is toxic and here's the thing, you're not always going to get along with your boss.

00;09;16;17 - 00;09;33;11
Mita Mallick
I've had great bosses and I've had some not so great bosses. And so the number one mistake I made in my career and I see so many people make, is you tie your fortunes to that one boss. Right. And you can't you have to really be thinking about who else can I get to invest in my career with me.

00;09;33;14 - 00;09;33;22
Paul Sullivan
Yeah.

00;09;33;22 - 00;09;51;00
Mita Mallick
Who else can I be showing the value of my work to do. Right. I say very famously now I am then over mentored and under sponsored in my career, and I talk a lot about that in the book. But finding people who will invest in your career and help you advance and get to get to go where you are.

00;09;51;00 - 00;10;03;02
Mita Mallick
So I think that when you do tie all your fortunes to the toxic leader, the toxic boss manager, that's when it's like, oh, what do I do now? And perhaps it's like, all right, let me assess. I might have to move on here.

00;10;03;04 - 00;10;23;10
Paul Sullivan
I smiled when you said that because I had the exact opposite. Happened to my career very early on. My first really great job was working for the Financial Times when I was 27, and I and the other 25 people who were hired by the then US editor, a guy named Robert Thompson, who is now quite senior news, NewsCorp, we tied our fortunes to him and we, you know, we jokingly called him Poppa and he took care of us and he was very puckish.

00;10;23;10 - 00;10;38;29
Paul Sullivan
Was is Australian guy who who wanted to really stick it to all the Brits in the UK. And I thought, man, I'm. And then of course then he left and then the new guy came in, I'm like, that wasn't such a good idea now was it? And the you know, guys, the new guy had all the people, that have it.

00;10;38;29 - 00;11;03;06
Paul Sullivan
But you know, you know, the company that as you know, we focus on caregiving, we focus on allyship at work in a myth eight, in your book talks about companies focusing on maternity leave as a, as a cure all or parental leave in general. If I remember correctly, you have two kids. I have three kids. I always say that, you know, parental leave is essential.

00;11;03;06 - 00;11;23;02
Paul Sullivan
It's a starting point, but it neglects the reality of being, a working parent. Whether whether you're a mom, or that, you know, what, can, you know, companies do to recognize that things don't get easier after, you know, 4 or 6 months. You know, if anything, that some of us would reflect back and said, man.

00;11;23;05 - 00;11;23;16
Mita Mallick
Those are the.

00;11;23;16 - 00;11;27;05
Paul Sullivan
Easier I wish. My teenager was six months old, right?

00;11;27;05 - 00;11;30;15
Mita Mallick
I always say, didn't talk back to me. I was like, oh yeah.

00;11;30;18 - 00;11;31;16
Paul Sullivan
Just smile at me.

00;11;31;17 - 00;11;51;17
Mita Mallick
Laughs and smile. Yes, I'll change diapers. Yeah, yeah. In this myth, Paul, I talk about, of course we support women. We just extended maternity leave. Yeah. And one of the things I keep coming back to, and I know you talk about this a lot as a thought leader and someone who's running this amazing company, is that the world of work for women can't change without men.

00;11;51;20 - 00;12;12;29
Mita Mallick
And so when we talk about building an inclusive culture for women, first of all, not all women want to become mothers. So there's that piece, right? Maternity leave. It's really parental leave. And even when you offer, as many companies do, and I know you talk about this a lot, you offer leaves equally, no matter how I become a parent, we all get the equal amount of lead.

00;12;13;01 - 00;12;32;00
Mita Mallick
It's about the role modeling. Yeah. And so when I worked with Dublin Plus Care years ago, we did a study where we saw a parental leave for men. The utilization rates were so low because there was, as you talk about the stereotypes, the bias, the oh, is he golfing? Is he really helping with the family? Right? What does he need leave for?

00;12;32;00 - 00;12;33;15
Mita Mallick
The wife should be the only thing.

00;12;33;21 - 00;12;36;19
Paul Sullivan
When he comes back. How was your vacation like exactly.

00;12;36;21 - 00;12;57;25
Mita Mallick
Which sounds like very 2000, but it's still happening. Those those comments are still being made behind closed doors and often in public. And so that's really like the role modeling starts with this is important. My partner has a doctor's appointment. I'm going to it right. I'm going to go to all the doctor's appointments. I'm taking the lead. Let me talk about what's going to happen when I'm out with my team or how I'm going to be back.

00;12;57;25 - 00;13;16;28
Mita Mallick
Sold. Let me be communicative and be excited and share pictures of my child and let them know how I'm doing caregiving as a father. And then when I'm coming back, you know, how am I going to as you said, that's just the beginning. So how am I ramping back to work? How am I continuing to not silently walk up the door?

00;13;16;28 - 00;13;30;23
Mita Mallick
Now I'm picking up my child from daycare. No, I'm leaving for the preschool meeting. No, no. Like I am role modeling actively so that it is now acceptable for anybody to be a caregiver at work, and that it's something that we're all proud of rather than hiding it.

00;13;30;25 - 00;14;00;02
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, we have a we've talked about a couple of things that the company does, you know, care days, which are, you know, emergency days off. If there's a care emergency and care shifts which allow people to work, sort of a concentrated period of time, like 10 to 3 or something like that, and then fill it in the rest of time and we broaden it out to using the word care, because not, as you said, not everyone's mom, not everybody's, a dad, but pretty much everyone is a caregiver at some point, you know, a spouse, a partner of a pet, a parent.

00;14;00;05 - 00;14;26;02
Paul Sullivan
And I understand, you know, how effective, the role modeling is from the emerging leader and all the people below him or her, because they look up to that emerging leader, of course. But how does it how does it rise up to the level above? How does that person's role modeling, the caregiving that he or she is doing, you know, loudly, which is important.

00;14;26;02 - 00;14;45;09
Paul Sullivan
Loudly, you know, is he or she leaves or how does that, you know, effectively, you know, rise up to the leadership that, you know, may suffer from some confirmation bias. Like, look, I know I 60s, I got here doing this, why aren't you doing this or. Hey, I only took a day off when my kids were born, and I never changed a diaper.

00;14;45;11 - 00;14;52;17
Paul Sullivan
I mean, you know, those are extreme, silly examples. The real. But they're down the stream. How does it rise up instead of me? I understand how people can look up.

00;14;52;18 - 00;15;12;11
Mita Mallick
Absolutely. Yeah. And that's a great question. It rises up because we've got generation Z, right? We have a generation that's come into the workforce. And it's like, I want companies that match my values. These are things that are important to me. It's really difficult when you're the first and the lonely only, no matter what you're doing. Right. And if you're the only, let's say, associate brand manager.

00;15;12;11 - 00;15;26;20
Mita Mallick
Father, back in my days of marketing, you're the only one who's doing this. And role modeling. You're afraid of retaliation. You're afraid of those career consequences. But what if there was more of us? What if there's more people doing that? And if I.

00;15;26;23 - 00;15;29;24
Paul Sullivan
And there are and there are, there just silent. You need somebody.

00;15;29;24 - 00;15;49;22
Mita Mallick
Yeah. Yeah. But it but it's like if we're all doing it and then you as a leader who's the general manager of this division, you're like wow, I've got a lot of men who are taking the full parental leave, and I have a lot of men very proudly talking about their families and how they're caregiving. That's where it starts to change and, you know, change.

00;15;49;22 - 00;16;12;18
Mita Mallick
As I always say on my podcast roundtable talk with DC market DC Marshall, it starts with tough conversations. We can't change it. We won't discuss. Like if you're the one who's like, hiding out, you know, like Sheryl Sandberg has that same story of where she would park all the way in the back or try to sneak out because she was afraid of how she might be judged if she was leaving early to get her children.

00;16;12;18 - 00;16;22;19
Mita Mallick
Many people really relate to that, and it's like, well, no, what if we all were like, it's 445, I have to leave. I got to go get my kids. Right? Becomes formalized. We're not hiding it.

00;16;22;20 - 00;16;50;02
Paul Sullivan
We're, you know, myth number nine, is really in the company dad's wheelhouse. And that that chapter, if I wrote down correctly, is entitled. These die efforts don't benefit me. My voice as a white man doesn't count anymore. And this chapter is, was fascinating for for me to read. Because, as you said, it's it's one of the things we, we really try to do at the company dads is to be allies and to show that, you know, when men step up, it's good for them.

00;16;50;02 - 00;17;06;05
Paul Sullivan
But it also helps, you know, women at work as well. How can privilege just walk us? The listener says. But how can privilege become an asset for change and and not an anchor to preserve the status quo?

00;17;06;07 - 00;17;22;23
Mita Mallick
That's a powerful question. I think that's the work we're all fighting to do. I think one, to acknowledge that we all have privilege. You know, oftentimes we get very caught up in is it this is it that, I mean, we all have privilege, whether that's race or gender, where you grow up or where you go to school. I have privilege.

00;17;22;23 - 00;17;28;29
Mita Mallick
And so I think if we can just acknowledge that because words like privilege become a lightning rod, like people they do.

00;17;29;00 - 00;17;29;17
Paul Sullivan
Oh yeah.

00;17;29;20 - 00;17;44;23
Mita Mallick
Right. It's like, okay, well, no, what does that mean? That just means I've had a different life journey than you. And if we were to compare our life journeys, there are some moments where you've had more privilege than me, and I'm sure there are some moments where I've been more privileged than you. And so that's like, oh, okay, that's what that's about.

00;17;44;25 - 00;18;04;22
Mita Mallick
Okay. So you might have more power and situations than I do. And so if you are at work with me, you likely could use that power for good to help create a more inclusive environment. And so what do those simple things look like? If you were leading a team, you don't wait for HR. Let me say this again.

00;18;04;22 - 00;18;22;06
Mita Mallick
Do not wait for wait for HR. Check if your team is being paid fairly and equitably. It is your job to check if your team is being paid for Atlanta quarterly. Now go and look at the numbers and then go ask H.R and legal for help. But when we think about pay inequity, disparity like that is an easy way and a quick way to show up as an ally, right?

00;18;22;06 - 00;18;40;04
Mita Mallick
Okay. Actually, the men and women on my team. Wow, I didn't even realize this. There's discrepancies. I need help. Next time you get asked to join a panel, Paul and I know you would do this. I'm joining a panel of all white men. Well, let me ask the organizer. What are you going to do to drive diversity of representation.

00;18;40;04 - 00;18;51;21
Mita Mallick
And Paul gets a lot of speaking opportunities. So he's going to say if you don't add more women, white women and women of color to this conversation, I'm respectfully going to back out.

00;18;51;23 - 00;19;02;24
Paul Sullivan
Right? I that was my old life, when I wrote books. I was at the New York Times. Now I'm actually it's actually the opposite. I'm the only guy on a panel of all women. I could be true always.

00;19;02;27 - 00;19;19;22
Mita Mallick
Yes, but you should also be. So that's really interesting, too. Like, especially for this conversation, we need more voices of men at the table, right. So people get really uncomfortable about this. But like in a perfect utopia, you want every voice at the table and you want. Yeah. We're looking at the lens of gender. You want there to be gender balance.

00;19;19;22 - 00;19;36;09
Mita Mallick
You want both men and women. And so that's also wonderful for you to say, hey, we're talking about caregiving. We have like nine women on this panel and one man out that there'd be nine women and women that you like. If there was a situation like that, some sort of roundtable conversation would be like, you know, I have three other men I like to invite to this.

00;19;36;09 - 00;19;46;01
Mita Mallick
How would you feel about that? And likely they would say, wow, that's a great I hadn't thought about that, Paul, thank you so much. And so they would probably welcome those additions.

00;19;46;03 - 00;20;15;16
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. I had a conversation yesterday, the private equity backed company that the company dads is hopefully going to do some work from. And it was three women on the call and, and one man. And the man is one who brought me into the conversation. And he said I was kind of given the whole spiel of how when you add in a more diverse voices, like for, for caregiving, when you when you add not just a man, but when you add, you know, caregivers who may be, you know, gay or lesbian, bisexual or caregiving it deepens and enriches the conversation.

00;20;15;18 - 00;20;43;04
Paul Sullivan
And the three women, 100%. Got it. But then this guy spoke up and said, you know, just, you know, you know, a year ago, we had, a workshop here and I attended because I'm the lead dad. He's an attorney. You know, I'm a dad in my relationship. And I got really uncomfortable and ate my lunch, and I left, and it was this moment for everybody else, like, okay, you know, if we're going to move this thing forward, let's get everybody involved, you know, let's eat, as I say.

00;20;43;05 - 00;21;17;29
Paul Sullivan
Like, if we could, you know, have one fewer bad joke a week about caregiving in the workplace. You know, we're making some progress. You talked about, you know, Gen Z pushing things along. Millennials are thinking, you know, differently, too. But, you know, if you could think of ways to get men who may be hesitant to step up, to give them sort of license, to step up what's needed to get, you know, more men in senior or almost senior roles to, to, to step up.

00;21;18;01 - 00;21;41;26
Mita Mallick
In my role as a chief diversity officer, I'm always trying to reach people where they are and help them along in their journey. And there's kindness and compassion in that. And I talk about this in reimagine inclusion is that we lack that in our workplaces. So if, let's say a white man I'm working with who's a senior executive has a question and I say, I can't believe you would ask that question, like, come on, you're really asking that question.

00;21;41;26 - 00;22;01;06
Mita Mallick
Like, or if I go even more extreme, that was really racist, sexist or homophobic comment. Right. And so that breaks down psychological safety. And that person's likely never going to come back to me again rather than helping to educate and teach them. And so that's where I think we need more of that. Now, I'm not saying that you can continue to cause hurt and harm.

00;22;01;06 - 00;22;21;08
Mita Mallick
That's not what I'm saying. But I'm saying like the first time someone makes a mistake, I talk a lot about intent and impact. I do think most people have positive intent. The impact doesn't always land the way we want it to. And so I think if we had more kindness and compassion, forgiveness in our workplace, but at the same time, for the men who are leading, wow, what an amazing responsibility and legacy.

00;22;21;08 - 00;22;49;12
Mita Mallick
You have to think about how you can change the makeup of your team and how you could lead this company in a different place than you found it. And so I think oftentimes it takes 1 to 1 conversations, but it also takes, as you know, men helping other men along. Sometimes it takes men to reach other men. And so oftentimes I think about that in my work too, as Paul is someone I'm working closely with who really is excited about the efforts in our company, I might say hip hop.

00;22;49;13 - 00;23;05;02
Mita Mallick
What about your colleague on your team? Do you want to talk to him and see if he wants to come to the workshop next week, or meet with HR about that policy we're working on for caregiving? And so it's really like it's a tipping point, right? Like I always say like find 1 or 2 other people. I'm gonna tell you to find 20, right.

00;23;05;02 - 00;23;17;28
Mita Mallick
It's like the influence and 1 or 2 other people that you know, that you can get to care about this because you know, they have a daughter, they have a son, they have somebody who they care about, and they want the world of work to be different for that person.

00;23;18;01 - 00;23;33;03
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, we've seen it because like, you know, as I said, dads in their 20s and 30s are having fundamentally different conversations. Dads in their 40s and 50s where I fall, you know, I've been in leader for a long time, but a lot of them had this moment during Covid where they sort of rethought what they wanted to do and how they wanted to do it.

00;23;33;05 - 00;23;54;01
Paul Sullivan
And then in some cases, the dads in their 60s and 70s, when I sort of tell them what we're doing, we're kind of hopeless. Unless they have, a child, a son or daughter. But it's often that they have a child who they're very proud of. They're seeing that child do really well and then like, wait a second, you know, I got here doing this in a very traditional way.

00;23;54;03 - 00;23;57;13
Paul Sullivan
It doesn't have to be that way. But it's, you know, you need that exposure.

00;23;57;13 - 00;23;58;26
Mita Mallick
I love that, yes.

00;23;58;29 - 00;24;20;16
Paul Sullivan
One thing I was intrigued, by in the book and a phrase I'd never heard of, before, story I'd never heard before. But I loved it. Was the curb cut effect? For the listeners, could you just add on in the studio that describe what the curb cut effect is and then talk about how it can be applied to the workplace?

00;24;20;17 - 00;24;24;25
Mita Mallick
Yeah. The curb cut curb. Excuse me. Let me start again. Can edit this part.

00;24;24;27 - 00;24;25;03
Paul Sullivan
Yeah.

00;24;25;06 - 00;24;53;22
Mita Mallick
The curb cut effect was something I had studied that many listeners have probably heard of is back to the city of San Francisco and how they were trying to make the sidewalks and roads more accessible, particularly for individuals with wheelchairs, revising wheelchairs. And so you think about if you have a memory or can pull up a memory of a sidewalk and the street, you likely will see an indentation right?

00;24;53;22 - 00;25;14;10
Mita Mallick
When the sidewalks meeting the street, a way to get off safely. And so very interesting and a great analogy for what we're talking about. So the workplace is that when they did that, they realized it wasn't just for the one group of individuals they had in mind, right? They created the curb cut effect for, let's say, individuals who were utilizing wheelchairs.

00;25;14;12 - 00;25;38;14
Mita Mallick
All of a sudden people with strollers, bicycles and skateboarders, someone who's maybe using a cane, or maybe you're pushing a trolley, little trolley. So you're like, wow, like this one thing that we thought was going to help this group of individuals helped so many more. And so you think about when it comes to our workplace policies, you think about the battle of five days in the office, right?

00;25;38;15 - 00;25;57;04
Mita Mallick
So, you know, and you're like, yeah, this doesn't just impact this one of people. It actually when you think about I think any person I talked to wants flexibility in their life when it comes to work. And so you think about these policies and you're like, okay, you might have it in mind for that one person, which is great.

00;25;57;06 - 00;26;01;10
Mita Mallick
It's likely going to have a ripple effect on other people as well.

00;26;01;12 - 00;26;12;26
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. You know, but flexibility to me is almost like when you talked about privilege being a challenge word. I try framing that sense of like responsibility gives people responsibility.

00;26;12;26 - 00;26;13;17
Mita Mallick
Yes.

00;26;13;19 - 00;26;31;07
Paul Sullivan
They're going to do the job that they need to do and for good or bad, you know, very few of us who have jobs like white House, you know, shut off at 5:00. And so there's time to like, oh, well, I can put my kids to bed or I just watch a show. Why don't I answer ten emails now?

00;26;31;07 - 00;26;56;16
Paul Sullivan
And so when you give people agency responsibility, I think they're more out to, to, you know, to appreciate it and to work in a different way. Myth 13 is we can work from home now. The future of work is inclusive. And this was, you know, intriguing to me because like many ideas, you know, the company does came out of Covid when suddenly, you know, we're working from home.

00;26;56;16 - 00;27;21;24
Paul Sullivan
And I was pretty confident that we would work differently when we went back. And I was also pretty confident from, you know, my previous like that companies would make a lot of mistakes, that even well-intentioned companies would do, you know, the wrong thing. And we had this period, and we had a CEO on a couple weeks ago, the CEO, Virgin Pulse, who was pretty sure that he was going to be a traditional CEO and have everybody come back to the office.

00;27;21;24 - 00;27;47;10
Paul Sullivan
And second, the second wave of Covid hit. And he said, well, this okay, forget this. This isn't going to work. And his company is thriving. It's a healthcare tech company. It's thriving because he's allowed a remote work with intentional times, of course, to get together. But after almost halcyon days of of remote work, there seemed he and what we're talking now, you know, shortly before your book comes out, it was come out in October.

00;27;47;12 - 00;28;09;00
Paul Sullivan
I don't know. Backlash is an overused word, but there seems to be more of a pull, to get people back in the office. And I've been very, you know, publicly and strongly critical of of leaders like, you know, Jamie Dimon at JPMorgan and David Solomon at Goldman Sachs, who have instituted these policies that they feel more 1983 than 2000, 23.

00;28;09;03 - 00;28;30;03
Paul Sullivan
And you lay out in this chapter all the right ways to to have you to make the future of work inclusive, to to go remote first with some of your policies. But there is this strong pull in certain sectors. What are your thoughts on on that and on the sector where they really are trying to pull the people back into a pre-pandemic way of of work?

00;28;30;04 - 00;28;54;00
Mita Mallick
I think they will eventually lose their talent over time because again, when there's plenty of jobs in the market and that will happen again. And some would argue there are still pockets. People who have highly skilled expertise that are really sought after and demand that will be. I will go to the employer of choice who allows me to work because I love it responsibly.

00;28;54;02 - 00;28;55;05
Mita Mallick
I'm an adult.

00;28;55;07 - 00;28;55;26
Paul Sullivan
Right?

00;28;55;29 - 00;28;56;04
Mita Mallick
I mean.

00;28;56;08 - 00;28;58;05
Paul Sullivan
You did hire you hired me for some.

00;28;58;05 - 00;29;24;04
Mita Mallick
Service, hired me to do a job. I know how to do it. Yeah. And so it's this push pull, and I don't know what the. Is it because of people feel the micromanagement tendencies and a loss of control? Is it because I was raised in a corporate America where I was supposed to sit in a corner office and be able to look out my glass office and see everybody that worked for me and just run out and they would run up and do whatever I want, you know, like, I don't know.

00;29;24;08 - 00;29;49;23
Mita Mallick
Or is it the real estate, you know, theory, conspiracy theory, what's going to happen to all the real estate in the country and around the world that people don't go back? Whatever. I don't know what it is, but I know that it's not the future, and I know that this will be here forever. This tension between people wanting to demanding people to be back five days and other people saying remote, listen, we all want connection.

00;29;49;26 - 00;30;09;01
Mita Mallick
Yeah, right. So no one's arguing that. And I think in the example of the individual you had as a guest is, yes, we work remotely, but we get together as needed in person. And I also think we underestimate the intimacy over zoom. It's actually much more intimate. Even as we're talking. We're probably sitting closer. We're being more intentional.

00;30;09;04 - 00;30;17;00
Mita Mallick
Right. And so I think I've built so many great relationships virtually. And so I don't think we should underestimate the power that.

00;30;17;02 - 00;30;34;14
Paul Sullivan
It is a connection because, I mean, just you know, remember we all used that fake background. We don't do that anymore. And so you get a sense of like, oh, what other depth of that does that person have? What other things that might that person, you know, like, you know, you talk about, you know, building these policies, remote first.

00;30;34;14 - 00;30;51;02
Paul Sullivan
And, you know, I can hear the pushback. Well, that may work for she work for a tech company. Well, of course they could do that because they're a tech company. And it's easy. How do you get, you know, older companies to rethink the way they're doing things so that they don't think they. No, no, you have to be here.

00;30;51;02 - 00;31;07;08
Paul Sullivan
I have to see you. I have to talk to you. I have to be able to yell at you. I have to be able to, you know, you know, do this. Whereas, you know, the remote first is the the future. And maybe the question is, you know, how do you train? Train managers to be better at remote first, then then falling back on the old way of doing things?

00;31;07;10 - 00;31;24;27
Mita Mallick
I struggle with the word tech. Aren't we all tech companies now? Aren't we living in a world where I can order a Chipotle in Reno right now? When we talk like like everything is whatever you're looking at, it's tech first. And so I'm sort of like, Interesting. I still think about that. Like any company should really be leading with technology.

00;31;25;00 - 00;32;01;12
Mita Mallick
And as the demographics of the US continue to change right now, the US government says about 40% of individuals identify as nonwhite, that we'll get to 50% in ten years. It'll continue to rise. You know, you think about the individuals from historically marginalized communities that you want to attract, develop, retain, promote, and have to start thinking about, you know, I talk about it reinvention, inclusion, the flexibility, the response ability and the ease of people feel like they can work from home and just be more productive and have those days to do that.

00;32;01;12 - 00;32;25;14
Mita Mallick
And so I think that is where you're just going to be better off for your employees, better than your competition. You're going to be better off in a head if you can build a company that really thinks remote first and tech first versus adding it to the side, and I think that's where many companies still Paul have aren't getting it right, and they're demanding people back into the office because we all fell into the pandemic.

00;32;25;14 - 00;32;31;24
Mita Mallick
No one really thought strategically about how do we actually work together now? Yeah, in a hybrid world.

00;32;31;27 - 00;32;55;13
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. I tell this story that my middle daughter's best friend, her parents, are both oncologists, and they both work at Memorial Sloan-Kettering. And her this girl's father is actually trying to cure cancer. Like he literally eats the first specific type of cancer. Widely brilliant guy. And he learned during the pandemic that he could run his labs remotely. They could do a lot of tests, are doing obviously sick patients.

00;32;55;15 - 00;33;16;19
Paul Sullivan
And I always tell this, tell a story because I'm like, you know what? I don't think any of the rest of us are trying to cure cancer, and the guy who is trying to cure cancer is able to work remotely, and he fell into it. And MSK is obviously the type of, you know, research based hospital that that values outcomes, you know, yes, more than anything else.

00;33;16;22 - 00;33;30;05
Paul Sullivan
But when you think about it, well, what do you think? Ultimately, yes, in a different way. But what do you think ultimately will win over those managers who are reluctant to lead remote first? Is it their top talent?

00;33;30;07 - 00;33;50;21
Mita Mallick
They start losing offers and losing people, right. So if you give me an offer and we have like an amazing I say courtship may not meet all these people. Fantastic offer. And you're like oh by the way this is five days a week in the office. Oh, I didn't realize that. Game over. Sorry, I have another offer. Well, when more of that starts to happen, you will.

00;33;50;21 - 00;33;52;04
Paul Sullivan
So don't say, don't say Paul.

00;33;52;04 - 00;33;52;22
Mita Mallick
I'd like. You will.

00;33;52;22 - 00;33;54;23
Paul Sullivan
Certainly. Don't say I'm kidding.

00;33;54;25 - 00;34;09;20
Mita Mallick
Oh, well, I'll say some other name, but you know, like but you know. But then I will go to. I'll go to Paul. We'll say you were Mike. I'll go to park as Paul. Well, let me work, work, promote with travel. Great. I'm taking the offer. Yeah. That's what it's going to come down to. And you'll see that start to shift.

00;34;09;20 - 00;34;25;08
Mita Mallick
People want to have flexibility and responsibility. I will say both. They want that in their lives. Right? Especially after the three years of grace we've all been through people who've reevaluated what's important to them.

00;34;25;10 - 00;34;52;00
Paul Sullivan
This been great. Mita Malik, author of Reimagined Inclusion Debunking 13 Myths to Transform Your Workplace. One final question here. I'm going to put you on the spot with this one. You've been wildly successful. You're smart, you're charismatic, you're moving speaker, you're a real thinker. You've got two children. Is your husband a lead dad like me?

00;34;52;02 - 00;34;53;16
Mita Mallick
I couldn't do it without him.

00;34;53;18 - 00;34;54;10
Paul Sullivan
That's all it takes.

00;34;54;10 - 00;34;55;06
Mita Mallick
Partnership.

00;34;55;08 - 00;35;00;22
Paul Sullivan
That's what I want to hear. That's great. Mr. Malik, thank you again for being my guest today.

00;35;00;24 - 00;35;03;03
Mita Mallick
Thank you for having me.

00;35;03;06 - 00;35;28;15
Paul Sullivan
Thank you for listening to the company podcast. I also want to thank the people who make this podcast and everything else that we do. The company that possible, Helder Moura, who is our audio producer, Lindsay Decker. And as all of our social media, Terry Brennan, who's helping us with the newsletter and audience acquisition, Emily Servin, who is our web maestro, and of course, Evan Roosevelt, who is working side by side with me.

00;35;28;15 - 00;35;46;05
Paul Sullivan
And many of the things that we do here at the Company of Dads. It's a great team. And we're we're just trying to bring you the best in fatherhood. Remember, the one stop shop for everything is our newsletter, the dad sign up at the Company of dads.com backslash. The dad. Thank you again for listening.