EP91: How To Turn Dadding Into a Team Sport

Interview with Ryan Carters / Pro Cricketeer, Dad Coach

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

At 18, Ryan Carters was a professional cricket player in Australia. He was a father in his early 20s. In his late 20s, after graduating from Harvard, he became a consultant for McKinsey, one of the top management consulting firms in the world. Good life. What didn't fit, though, was how fathers were expected to work and interact with their family. It drove him to start DadFIt, an organization that aims to turn fatherhood into a team support and give dads the support mothers give each other. Listen to how to build your own Dad Team.

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Transcript

00;00;05;24 - 00;00;29;19
Paul Sullivan
Welcome to the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, silly, strange, and sublime aspects of being a lead dad in a world where men who are the go to parent aren't always accepted at work, among their friends, or in the community for what they're doing. I'm your host, Paul Sullivan. Our podcast is just one of the many things we produce each week at the company that we have various features, including the lead dad of the week.

00;00;29;21 - 00;00;54;10
Paul Sullivan
We have our community both online and in person. We have a new resource library for all fathers. The one stop shop for all of this is our newsletter, the dad. So sign up today at the Company of dads.com. Backslash the dad. Today my guest is Ryan Carters, founder of DadFit, way off in Western Australia. He is a coach, a trainer, and a speaker.

00;00;54;12 - 00;01;21;29
Paul Sullivan
He's a dad of three, ten, four and two. Earlier in his career, he was a professional cricket player in Australia and at Harvard. He worked for them and worked for McKinsey, the international consulting firm. And now he's on a mission through D&D fit, to quote, make dating a team sport again, to make it so that dads don't feel they're on their own, to give them what so many moms have, which is community D&D fit.

00;01;22;00 - 00;01;47;20
Paul Sullivan
The website says partners with communities, workplaces, and sporting organizations to support, celebrate and bring out the best in dads. I came across Ryan after reading a piece he wrote in the Sydney Morning Herald entitled Mums are Help to Find a Village. Why are dads left to struggle without one? Ryan, welcome to the Company of Dads podcast.

00;01;47;22 - 00;01;49;24
Ryan Carters
Thanks, Paul. Good to be here.

00;01;49;27 - 00;02;11;17
Paul Sullivan
You know, it's having a conversation just yesterday with the guy who said, you know, if you could start the company of dads in any country of the United States, what would you pick? And I said it was it would be Australia, where, where you are. And to me, at least as an outsider, it feels like, you know, dads in Australia are being more proactive or more vocal when it comes to valuing parents.

00;02;11;19 - 00;02;30;07
Paul Sullivan
You know, the two guys I really admire. Michael Ray and Mark, Tom Hanna, who are really active. Is that an inaccurate read on on fatherhood in Australia or what is your take? As as somebody who is there and not an outside observer.

00;02;30;10 - 00;02;51;09
Ryan Carters
Well, but one, I think we have to have one of the most famous dads in the world invented Hela, the famous Australian export. On the show Bluey. And he probably exemplifies what we would like to think of as the Aussie dad, someone who's always present with his kids and willing to live on their level. But in practice, I think it's hard for dads to take on an equal role.

00;02;51;10 - 00;03;07;14
Ryan Carters
A lot more dads are trying to these days. And that's a really great social change. But what we need, in my view, is a lot of the social and cultural support, as well as some policy changes to really help gender equality in families become a reality.

00;03;07;17 - 00;03;20;23
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. Well, for you, you know, talk about you know, you said, you know, your ten year old, you became a dad, you're relatively young in life. And that sort of set. Were you still playing professional cricket when you became a dad?

00;03;20;26 - 00;03;22;11
Ryan Carters
Yeah. That's right, I was, yeah.

00;03;22;12 - 00;03;35;12
Paul Sullivan
Talk to me about your career as a cricketer and and how being a professional athlete and a dad, how you know, what that did to your sort of world view.

00;03;35;15 - 00;03;55;29
Ryan Carters
So I was at the time when I met my partner who became my wife, Sarah, I was 22 and she was 12 years older than me, and she had a young baby. So I, you know, initially became her boyfriend and then became Lucette stepdad and dad. And that was a huge transition for me to go through in my early to mid 20s.

00;03;56;01 - 00;04;04;04
Ryan Carters
And no one I knew who was my age was going on that journey themselves, let alone doing it while being a professional athlete.

00;04;04;06 - 00;04;04;28
Paul Sullivan
Yeah.

00;04;05;00 - 00;04;26;05
Ryan Carters
And so I often felt like I was working that out on my own. I think when you are a professional athlete, you're kind of taught to prioritize yourself and your own performance because what you're measured on is what you do out on the field. And it's all about training and sleeping and hydrating and, you know, nutrition, everything you can do to perform at 100% in that role.

00;04;26;07 - 00;04;50;07
Ryan Carters
And so having a baby in your life just really throws that into chaos is what I found. The unpredictability around sleep and other things. And so over time, I worked out how to do that, but it wasn't an easy transition. And I felt like that was particular to me because of my career, which is unusual being a sportsperson and also because of being a young dad.

00;04;50;09 - 00;05;12;10
Ryan Carters
But as the years went on and I was able to talk to a lot more dads about their experience becoming a father, I realized that actually so many dads are struggling with the sense of isolation and loneliness in those early years. And also, so many dads are struggling with trying to work out what does this mean for my career and how can I keep showing up and doing my best if I want to be a really active and engaged dad?

00;05;12;13 - 00;05;22;10
Ryan Carters
So so that's what started out as a personal struggle for me and eventually became this more of a collective mission about how can we support dads to do their best in whatever field. I mean.

00;05;22;12 - 00;05;39;13
Paul Sullivan
Did you have any, you know, I don't you you're the you're the first, professional cricket player I've ever, ever talked to. So you got that going for you. But, you know, I know a lot of professional athletes. And I was talking actually about a month ago, a guy who worked for a professional ice hockey team in the United States for a long time.

00;05;39;13 - 00;05;55;24
Paul Sullivan
And he would say, you know, the the locker room was really, you know, broken down to three different groups. And only the last and the smallest of that group had any children, and they they were on their way out. They were retiring. And then most of them were, trying to date as much as they possibly could.

00;05;55;24 - 00;06;21;17
Paul Sullivan
That was the biggest group. The second group had, some, some girl girlfriends, partners. And then it was only that very small third group, that had kids. Did you have any, support? Were there any older players on any of the teams that you played for who helped, you know, give you some guidance? As both an athlete and father and how you would balance it, or as you said, you know, keep, keep showing up fully, for, for your, your profession.

00;06;21;20 - 00;06;43;10
Ryan Carters
There were some older guys in the team and more generally in the sport in Australia who had kids, for sure. In fact, cricket, relative to some other sports, people tend to play longer into their careers. So, you have a lot of guys still playing top level cricket into their 30s. So it's more common than some other sports to have that at that level.

00;06;43;13 - 00;07;09;07
Ryan Carters
In saying that, I found that there wasn't really a culture of talking honestly about the challenges going on in your own family or as a father, and that might be particular to sport, where people are quite focused on the game and performing, and often it's a sense of competition for your place in the team as well. So there was a bit of a hesitation to show any, any weakness or concern about what might be distracting you from that, in your personal life.

00;07;09;10 - 00;07;32;09
Ryan Carters
But honestly, I think it's more broadly affect about masculine culture. Certainly in Australia, and based on my experience in the US, probably in the US as well. You know, we're socialized not to really talk about our personal lives much, with other men tends to be a focus on talking about work. Talking about sport. Talking about which road you took to drive to the game that day.

00;07;32;11 - 00;07;50;29
Ryan Carters
But, you know, not so much about how things are really going at home, you know? How's your wife really doing with the struggles of being a new mother? How are you coping with being up all night? Your choice. Maybe your child's health is not going so well. So some of these topics that are really so important to us as men, we just really talk about.

00;07;51;01 - 00;08;11;21
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. How did you get to the point where you started feeling comfortable about talking about it? Was it after your career was over? When it was when you went to graduate school or for McKinsey? What was a moment where you really started being comfortable talking more openly about, you know, the studio? Like it's a lot of it's great to be a dad, but but it's not always great into.

00;08;11;21 - 00;08;13;21
Paul Sullivan
So to talk about the struggles.

00;08;13;24 - 00;08;34;20
Ryan Carters
Yeah. I, I can remember one moment I was in, I, I did my master's in public policy at Harvard. I was lucky to get this fantastic Australian based scholarship to go and study anywhere in the world, and that's where I chose to do it. And, I remember being in this leadership course, you know, the kind of one where they really break you down and get to what's really going on for you as a person.

00;08;34;20 - 00;09;09;29
Ryan Carters
And, then midway through, I broke down in front of the class of 100 people. And this was after living in the US for one year and our, our second child was just about to turn one at that time. And the reason that I broke down was that I had a sense that I'd been so engrossed in this opportunity, like postgraduate study at a leading university in the world, that I hadn't been there as much with my daughter as I wanted to in that first year, and my wife's physical and mental health was really struggling as a result, and it was really hard to admit that.

00;09;09;29 - 00;09;32;02
Ryan Carters
But once I did, there was actually a sense of relief that I'm so glad I'm realizing this now, because I know there are a lot of men out there who become fathers, and maybe have that realization when they're 60 and their kids are already grown up. And, you know, being a dad is not like playing the ukulele. It's not something you can put on the shelf and pick up when you're 60.

00;09;32;02 - 00;09;42;24
Ryan Carters
Right? It's like you only have one chance when your kids are that that special window between 0 and 5 or zero and ten, to really make those lasting connections. And so while I was.

00;09;42;28 - 00;09;56;16
Paul Sullivan
But I hang up but come on. Right. It being a that is a lot like playing cricket because you can play for five days and it still ends in a tie and it just goes back. Well, you got to admit that that did prepare you a little bit better than the rest of us for, for for father.

00;09;56;16 - 00;10;18;04
Ryan Carters
I mean, that makes cricket look like a short and simple game. Really? Yeah. You know, and it's hard, right? You've got to like another metaphor. I like is this idea of putting coins in an enormous jar. And, like, every day, as a dad, you have to show up and put coins in this enormous glass jar. And it's hard to see the difference that is making to the overall pile.

00;10;18;04 - 00;10;27;04
Ryan Carters
But you know that if you can do this every day for 20 years, then you're going to create a beautiful filled jar, and that will be the action your kids need for their life.

00;10;27;07 - 00;10;44;26
Paul Sullivan
But I bet I cut you off, though, so go back. So what was your reaction to your Harvard classmates? When you in this leadership class, when you, as you said, you know, broke down and were really honest with them about the struggles of being a, a father and a and a present as a partner.

00;10;44;28 - 00;11;14;27
Ryan Carters
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for asking. I. Yeah. So I broke down and cried in front of the class and explained this sense of regret combined with relief and optimism. Like, I had clarity now, how I wanted to do it differently. And my classmates responded so positively, a huge amount of empathy. Other people who are parents spoke up about similar struggles, and that made me realize that actually being vulnerable about your personal family struggles can be a really powerful thing.

00;11;14;29 - 00;11;34;21
Ryan Carters
And particularly to do it in these sort of high performing environments when people are so focused, often on their own achievement and their own advancement, it can create a real sense of humanity that connects us with what's important. So that was a big moment for me in learning to speak about that. And I've been, you know, steadily doing it more and more since then, including with founding Dad fit.

00;11;34;24 - 00;11;41;23
Ryan Carters
Yeah. It's moot, you know, in Australia to try and get that to be connecting with each other and being honest with each other about what's going on for them.

00;11;41;26 - 00;11;59;02
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. Talk a bit more about that, because the title, you would hear it, you think, oh, this must be a whole bunch of dads, do an exercise so we don't all get, big bellies and get flabby, but that's not it at all. It's a lot more complex than that, a lot more interesting. And so how did you take your experience as an athlete?

00;11;59;05 - 00;12;12;00
Paul Sullivan
You know, you also work for McKinsey, the most famous consulting firm in the world. And then your father of how did how did all of that lead to you starting dad fit, and what are you trying to achieve with it?

00;12;12;02 - 00;12;30;03
Ryan Carters
Well, I said initially it was a really personal struggle, a sense of loneliness as a dad, a sense that I wasn't getting it right, and I didn't know how to get the balance right between having a great career and being a great dad. You know, in my family, my dad had a great career and my mom was a fantastic, largely stay at home mother.

00;12;30;05 - 00;12;52;26
Ryan Carters
And so I could say two role models of being a good parent. But how can you kind of get both of those things in the same person? Yeah. If you think and so I wrestled with that for a number of years. And then I realized it's a much broader social problem, and we're living at a time when we really, as a society, we want much more gender equality in families.

00;12;52;26 - 00;13;17;05
Ryan Carters
And that's hugely important for enabling women to succeed in their careers. But unless we support dads with the kind of cultural change required for dads to be stepping up and playing that April role, it's going to be really hard for that to happen. And then the other part is men's mental health. Yeah. Based on Movember Foundation research, the men's mental health charity.

00;13;17;07 - 00;13;38;28
Ryan Carters
7 in 10 dads feel increased stress in the first year of being a parent. 1 in 4 feel isolated, wanting to their physical health declines and then 1 in 10 experienced postnatal depression. So there are some really major mental health challenges for men in those early years of fatherhood. And one of the worst things you can do in a high risk mental health environment is be isolated.

00;13;39;01 - 00;14;00;11
Ryan Carters
So the idea with that fit was, what if we instead of making becoming a father this private side hustle that you, you try to fit in on the side of your life somehow? If we brought up front and center and made it into more like a team sport, something where you have a team of dads around you, in every community, in every workplace, who are getting together and sharing experiences and talking honestly about what's going on for them.

00;14;00;13 - 00;14;21;04
Ryan Carters
As for the fitness part, we in our regular dad fit session that two hours and the first hour is physical exercise, and then the second hour is what we call a dad chat, which is where you sit around a table and talk. Yeah, the reason we have the physical exercise is because it's really important for men's health to be getting out there and working out, but also it builds a huge amount of camaraderie and trust.

00;14;21;06 - 00;14;39;26
Ryan Carters
And that's something I know from my team. Sport background. That sense that you have a connection and trust with people when you really exercise together is huge. And that, like, lays the foundation for dads to get together and talk. Honestly. If you said to the average dad, hey, do you want to get in a room with 12 strangers and talk about your feelings?

00;14;39;28 - 00;15;04;29
Ryan Carters
I probably say, no, thank you. I mean, if you said you want to come in and work out together, have some fun, play with the ball, you know, and then get around and talk about what's really going on for you as a dad. What we've found is dads really love that format, and it's very effective. And then the third part of Dad Fit is you have the workout, you have the dad chat, and then you have the dad challenge, which is after a dad fit session.

00;15;05;02 - 00;15;09;14
Ryan Carters
We leave with a small challenge for the dads to try out that week in their family lives.

00;15;09;14 - 00;15;12;27
Paul Sullivan
Okay, so for example, give me some examples of the dad challenges.

00;15;12;27 - 00;15;33;27
Ryan Carters
Yeah, it could be something simple like, hey, take 30 minutes this week to try a new activity with your kid one on one and really connect with them for that 30 minutes. Or it could be, based on something you've heard today. Do one thing to support your partner this week, which is out of the ordinary, and then come back the following week, and we share with the group how it went.

00;15;33;29 - 00;15;51;28
Ryan Carters
Yeah, yeah. And we have a silly award, the pony award, which goes to A-grade dating for that week. So we we kind of gamified and make it fun and take the piss out of ourselves and wear silly headbands. But really it's all about starting to share experiences about what it means to be a good dad. You know, like an everyday day to day sense.

00;15;52;00 - 00;16;10;18
Paul Sullivan
It's it's fascinating. And I won't even ask why it's a pony or because I don't want to know. But it's fascinating because I think of, you know, I have a lot of acquaintances, and my daughters think that that means I have a lot of friends, but I would say I probably have maybe a half dozen friends maybe.

00;16;10;24 - 00;16;30;06
Paul Sullivan
And and when I mean friends, I mean those people that you can really say, hey, this is, a struggle or, hey, you know, this is going really well, and I can tell you and it doesn't sound like I'm bragging or being a jerk. But those, you know, some of them go back 30 years, some of these, these friendships.

00;16;30;08 - 00;16;47;21
Paul Sullivan
How do you aim to in in these these D&D fit sessions, sort of break down those barriers more quickly to get dads to, to open up, for their own benefit, but really for the benefit of, of the entire group. That's, that's there that that evening.

00;16;47;23 - 00;17;17;16
Ryan Carters
Yeah. Yeah, I'll speak to that in just a second. But just to share that context, you're right. The research has shown 40% of men feel very lonely at this stage of life. And I've had anecdotes from the guys and the dad figure. It's along the lines of, you go to school, you go to college, you make friends, and then you start working and gradually your friends drop off, and then you move cities and more friends drop off, and then you have kids and more friends drop off, and then one day you wake up and you realize you're screwed.

00;17;17;17 - 00;17;39;08
Ryan Carters
You're entirely alone. And that's a reality for so many men at this stage of life. And what we do is like a social experiment and building connections and real friendships among men in their 30s, 40s and 50s. And some of the ways that we do that is, like I said, we we sort of gamify it. We split into two teams, we play silly games.

00;17;39;08 - 00;18;01;11
Ryan Carters
We use our kids toys just to try and get men out of that work mode where you're putting on a fake and trying to act a certain role and just into that real, authentic, casual dad mode is one point. The other point is that as a facilitator, I would always role model vulnerability. You can't expect other men in the room to share it.

00;18;01;11 - 00;18;27;02
Ryan Carters
Honestly, if you're not prepared to do it yourself as the group leader. So I would always start each session with a story about my own experiences and something that I've struggled with, and then lead with a question to ask that, are they willing to share something in their own lives along those lines? And often you see someone become a bit of a leader in the group who's willing to stand up and share something quite vulnerable, and then others will say, yeah, I can totally relate to that.

00;18;27;02 - 00;18;44;24
Ryan Carters
And let me tell you what happened to me. And then it becomes like a cascade effect after that. When you're also checking in on WhatsApp each week with the group and you're sharing those that challenges that I mentioned, and then you're coming back and talking about new topics. Within a few weeks, there's an incredible sense of trust and closeness within the group.

00;18;44;26 - 00;19;05;18
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. Tell me this. You know, because we have this sort of, you know, foundational story of of you being in this leadership class at Harvard. And then we have, you know, the great work that you're doing, with that bit. But in, in between there you were at the McKinsey, you had a, another child, you have three kids.

00;19;05;20 - 00;19;26;01
Paul Sullivan
Was there sort of a moment in that McKinsey part of your life where you said, okay, this is fantastic. American Consulting is amazing firm, but there has to be more. I did this or was there another moment between leadership class and dad fit that really said, okay, this is what I have to do. I'm not going to do this for myself.

00;19;26;01 - 00;19;34;11
Paul Sullivan
And my partner and my own family. I'm going to try to help other men, do this as well.

00;19;34;14 - 00;19;58;16
Ryan Carters
Yeah. There were there were moments. I think my time at McKinsey was wonderful from a professional experience, but from a family point of view, it was a difficult time to get the balance right. And my wife had a, major surgery and one of the side effects of that was being into instant menopause, surgically induced menopause. While I was working at McKinsey.

00;19;58;16 - 00;20;22;20
Ryan Carters
And she had some really major physical and mental health complications as a result of that. And so I was thrust into taking time off work to look after the three kids and my wife full time for a period. And that was another like another moment when I realized that I'd had the balance wrong. You know, when when things like that happen and you really wake up and see what's important to you.

00;20;22;22 - 00;20;44;19
Ryan Carters
For me, the answer was my family, my wife and my kids. But day to day, the way I was living and the way a lot of the men around me was living where living was essentially to put work first. Like you ask yourself, if your manager calls at 8 p.m. on a Thursday, do you pick up the phone and say, okay, I'll get on to it right away?

00;20;44;21 - 00;20;59;17
Ryan Carters
In a lot of cases, the answer is yes, you do. But if your daughter at 8 p.m. on a Thursday says, yeah, hey, dad, we read me one more book, or can we do this thing together that I learned at school today? Sometimes your gut reaction is, no, it's bedtime. Can you go to bed now?

00;20;59;18 - 00;21;20;17
Ryan Carters
I've got work to do. And so why is it that what we know is our most important priority in life often becomes the afterthought or the left over priority after our main, our career, the thing we do for paid work. So that was something I wrestled with and kind of went back and forth on it during my time at McKinsey.

00;21;20;19 - 00;21;42;27
Ryan Carters
And then it was really looking at the, the research and talking to other dads and realizing that, again, what I felt were my personal struggles are actually so universal for dads in this day and age. And I saw that could be a potential huge impact collectively, if we could get this right, that I decided to take the big plunge and leave my job at McKinsey and found that fit.

00;21;43;00 - 00;22;02;20
Paul Sullivan
You think that when you say that you're taking that call at 8:00 at night, do you think that some reason for that is something that propels men to do that? Is this historic, traditional link between masculinity and money, like you talked about your own dad being the primary earner and your mom being the primary caregiver in your life.

00;22;02;23 - 00;22;17;28
Paul Sullivan
Is it, you know, because it's one of the things you talk about the company. That's a lot. Is it how do you break that link between masculine money or how do you make that link, you know, more healthy? So, you know, the 8:00 call from work that that money, the 8:00 call, from your child to read another book that that's caregiving.

00;22;17;28 - 00;22;21;27
Paul Sullivan
Is that part of the internal struggle that some men may may face?

00;22;21;29 - 00;22;47;00
Ryan Carters
Yeah. I think often as men, we're, socialized as boys to think that our number one role is to, you know, achieve out in the world of work and earn money as a result of that. Whereas typically women are more socialized as girls to see a priority as building nurturing relationships, you know, connecting with and caring for those around them.

00;22;47;02 - 00;23;13;12
Ryan Carters
Now that's stereotypical. That's not true of every boy and every girl. But as a name, it's it's it holds. And so we've got some work to do as men in this generation to unlearn that conditioning and to think about it like I'm not just going to do, you know, unthinkingly what I inherited from two generations ago in our culture, like what actually matters to me as a person, and how can I put the habits in place to create that life for myself?

00;23;13;15 - 00;23;38;05
Ryan Carters
And sometimes that means making significant changes to your life. Sometimes that means small, relatively smaller things, like some of the dads who are had of dad fit. For example, since joining Dad Fit have chosen to go down to four days a week instead of full time work to have one extra day with their young children and that, yeah, it's not like an earth shattering change, but that's a really significant change to have one extra day with your kids per week.

00;23;38;07 - 00;23;44;13
Ryan Carters
And if we could repeat that across society that would mean huge things for gender equality and for family health.

00;23;44;15 - 00;24;06;07
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. What prompted you to to to write the piece in the Sydney Morning Herald? Again, moms are help to find a village. Why are dads left to struggle without. Well what was it that said, okay, now's the time to write this. I've got to get I've gotta sort of make more people, aware of of of what's going on and, and, you know, talk about inequality.

00;24;06;07 - 00;24;10;15
Paul Sullivan
That's an obvious inequality.

00;24;10;18 - 00;24;31;03
Ryan Carters
Yeah. I think it was approaching Father's Day, which is in September in Australia. And I was reflecting on that Father's Day, we still seem to have a relatively like, narrow and superficial version of what it means to be a dad. You know, we think of, like, golf and fishing and beer and, you know, joking around with the kids, making bad jokes.

00;24;31;05 - 00;24;47;25
Ryan Carters
But this, this kind of deeper connecting with and caring for your children. We still don't have as much public conversation about that and role models. So trying to start that conversation about what it means to be a dad who's really deeply connecting with your kids, and they're kind of in the trenches and the ugly parts of day to day life.

00;24;47;25 - 00;25;19;11
Ryan Carters
Cleaning porridge, the for every morning. That was one part of it. The second part was, recognizing that I think the current government investment in early is a family in Australia, is, you know, not necessarily intentionally designed this way, but it's kind of the way it ends up is that it provides some social support for mothers in the form of new parent groups that are held, usually during business hours in the first 6 to 12 months of a child's life.

00;25;19;13 - 00;25;40;15
Ryan Carters
And also maternal child health appointments, which is designed for mothers and children to go along and meet a nurse, at regular intervals throughout the first three years of the child's life, just to be able to talk through issues and and share any concerns and, and professional advice. Whereas dads largely go back to work within a few weeks of their partner having a baby.

00;25;40;17 - 00;26;06;12
Ryan Carters
And they mostly don't participate in any kinds of parents groups or parent education programs. And to me, that just seems like a natural, recipe for repeating more of the same kind of isolation and more of the same gender inequality that we're currently seeing in families. So I wanted to make the point that imagine what the benefits would be to to dads health, but also to mums health and to child's health.

00;26;06;14 - 00;26;10;24
Ryan Carters
If we made an investment in supporting dads with the transition to fatherhood.

00;26;10;26 - 00;26;33;05
Paul Sullivan
We take it a week. I agree with everything you just said and we take it. We kind of add the other layer of of the corporate world because there is this, you know, people do need to earn a living. And we talk about in so many companies in the United States have parenting groups and they call them parenting groups, but they're not really parenting groups or groups filled with moms who come and try to figure out what's going on.

00;26;33;05 - 00;26;54;06
Paul Sullivan
And we say, like, you know, if parent a group of 100 people, like, I mean, 98 moms in there and the two men who show up are going to be the two men who least need to be there. You know, they're already doing all this stuff at home. They're already allies at work. How do we get those other guys in their 30s and 40s who late 20s who want to be involved but but don't exactly, you know, know what to do?

00;26;54;06 - 00;27;14;02
Paul Sullivan
You know, they don't feel welcome in that space. In with dad fit. It sounds to me like you, you created this space. If if you could sort of, you know, about a bump up against time. But if you could sort of, you know, think about, you know, 1 to 3 things that you tell dads who are listening, who who want to be involved in this, who want to be more open.

00;27;14;04 - 00;27;30;07
Paul Sullivan
But they're hesitant. They're afraid to be vulnerable. What are the things that you found that, you know, help men be vulnerable and and also give them the biggest reward for, for putting themselves out there as, as men, as fathers, as is, you know, humans.

00;27;30;09 - 00;27;38;06
Ryan Carters
It's a beautiful question. Thanks for. I think.

00;27;38;08 - 00;28;06;05
Ryan Carters
Find the right opportunity and take a risk and it does feel exposing to be vulnerable, as particularly as men. And yet, if you do it, what you might find is immediately the other person or the other people, feel a sense of trust, a connection with you. It actually builds closeness very quickly when you do it, and you don't have to go straight off the deep end in terms of your deepest, oldest wound.

00;28;06;07 - 00;28;30;17
Ryan Carters
You know, you can start like, often for me, I start with moments that that are quite, everyday and relatable to do with lack of sleep or the kids being sick. And then you can build up to the more deeply intimate things over time. And the other thing is there are like realizing that there are people all around you going through similar experiences.

00;28;30;19 - 00;28;54;11
Ryan Carters
I remember when I first started that fit and we ran our first group at our local childcare center where my children go, 5 or 6 of the dads from that childcare center signed up when we sent around a flier, as well as some other dads from elsewhere, and even after just a month of meeting with them, I walked into the childcare and I saw the family photos on the wall and suddenly I recognized that, hey, we've got a community around us.

00;28;54;16 - 00;29;11;20
Ryan Carters
It's not just a bunch of strangers who send their kids to this center anymore. And that, yeah, you really like when you see photos and you're like, oh yeah, that's just another person in a city. But once you get to know someone and really talk to them, it is such a powerful thing. And, and now I feel like I can barely leave my house without running into a dad.

00;29;11;20 - 00;29;37;23
Ryan Carters
I know and waving to them in the street, which is a beautiful feeling. And we're not, as men, socialized to say that that's what makes life worth living. But for me, it's a huge part of what makes life worth living is community connections and being real with each other. So take the risk. Get started with with 1 or 2 that you already know and just see what happens, because it could really help the other people just as much as it could help you.

00;29;37;25 - 00;29;45;11
Paul Sullivan
Ryan Carter, founder of Dad Fit. Thank you so much for being my guest today on the Company of Death podcast.

00;29;45;13 - 00;29;48;03
Ryan Carters
Thank you. Paul, great to talk.

00;29;48;05 - 00;30;13;14
Paul Sullivan
Thank you for listening to the Company Dads podcast. I also want to thank the people who make this podcast and everything else that we do. The company of dads possible. Helder Moura, who is our audio producer Lindsay Decker. And as all of our social media, Terry Brennan, who's helping us with the newsletter and audience acquisition, Emily Servin, who is our web maestro, and of course, Evan Roosevelt, who is working side by side with me.

00;30;13;14 - 00;30;31;06
Paul Sullivan
And many of the things that we do here at the Company of Dads. It's a great team. And we're we're just trying to bring you the best in fatherhood. Remember, the one stop shop for everything is our newsletter, the dad. Sign up at the Company of dads.com backslash. The dad. Thank you again for listening.